Guild Wars 2

Honestly if you are going to take traits in stealth line make sure it has shadow refuge and the trait to give you INitiative back when you use a skill that stealths. this way shadow refuge is going to almpost fully refill the initiative, in addition to the major rejuvenation healing. i played all kinds of builds using that combination. it makes you truly resourceful to be able to do a big bad recharge and come back out swinging to finish off skirmishes

could always give the super shadow unicorn a spin but i dont think it really has mixed. your problem is always going to be having initiative and some kind of direct attack to unleash. i experimented with a few (dagger, pistol, stealth with the combo vs dagger dagger, just using the more efficient cloak and dagger to get chances for solid shadow killer backstabs)

Ultra Shadow unicorn
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-e33V;1VwFb0Q5FOVd0;9;6T9T;434A2;046AaZF9;2nBnBnBnB1FF

Dagger/pistol hidden killer supershadow which really doesn’t make use of condition attack.. there’s nothing that really lets you tap into both besides a cluster bomber build
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-e3RV;1Vwka07-FOkd0;9;5TT9;209B34A4;3YRF9;2nBnBnBnB5kc

for sword dagger (I call this shadow style superthief) I’ve always gone with berserker setup or sometimes a balanced setup with celestial and divinity. I like 30 in shadow for shadow rejuvenation and shadow embrace. this counters power damage and condition attacks well. From there I think 20 and 30 critical points work well and your choice of the other 10 or 20 what you like.

Thief main here and I feel that i’ve explored every way to play in the different build and weapon set options.

I actually agree with everything you said, regarding backstab itself.

my opinion is initiative cost wouldn’t make sense on it but a cooldown of 10 to 20 seconds would, along with a mechanic that can also reset this cooldown when you use another ability— perhaps the chance could be anytime you go into stealth or steal.

What if steal’s cooldown had a chance to reset on other actions instead of gaining shorter recharge when built in trickery?

In addition, I feel like that type of mechanic makes far more sense than the pure initiative only on the thief’s highest damage attacks. They should cost less initiative than they do right now with zero recharge, then have low to moderate cooldowns at an average of 8 seconds which get slight chance to finish when spending initiative, stealing, landing a critical, or going into stealth.

If you like, bring this idea INTO the initiative system by giving us the same proc as a little buff (like the revealed one) making our next attack cost no initiative or regenerate some for a few attacks as well. Then you can create a mix with short cooldowns, that sometimes reset, and a more interesting active resource experience that is less reliant on choosing an efficient build.

Why aren’t there any traits for condition damage applied on critical? The possible builds using condition damage are slim due to the skills required to apply it.

2nd item is related and deals with trait design itself. I feel that linked trait to stat boosts is a detraction to the game’s overall style of buildcrafting empowerment (player choice of their role and utility).

Trait points should have two interfaces, one for base stat boosts, and one for minor/major choices. The points shouldn’t do both at once, reducing your choices. That was better before the 3 tier system was added during one of the beta weekends, I’m told. But, the tier system is necessary and so is trait based stat gain. So keep both but let us choose the stats that support the role we’re choosing.

Third: why are the weapon skill choices so limited? Can any system be implemented that starts from the concept of steal and provides more choices what ability occupy 1-5 with the different weapons we have? Engineers and elementalists have tons of cool choices around their concept. I think thieves could be just as creative with weapon usage and skills to choose from!

Yeah.. I like this combo… but what I’m doing is netting them after rifle 4 overcharge.. then getting ready to knock them again with flamethrower 3. by then i can do an elixir gun 4 jump back, cripple them with 2, and get ready to net and overcharge again.. hopefully during all this they have drained heftily from my condition pain and burns, and havent had a whole lot of uptime to clear anything

made a similar build, but using all stealth slots. shadow trap, blind pwder, refuge. hide in shadow. get 30 critical and 30 shadow. infusion of shadow, shadow’s embrace, shadow rejuvenation.

on critical i like furious retaliation (1) and critical haste. grab a sigil of rage. toss up between hidden killer and executioner for PP since coming out of the stealth with unload is awesome but may not always be tactically viable.

ive tried it with the last 10 points in acro or deadly, just depending on whether i want trap cooldown benefit for more stealth or just getting mug in there. it’s good. i managed to put dagger/pistol in the other set when using hidden killer, and it works awesome for anything that can’t kite me and just go to town with the backstabs after black powder, heartseeker combo and haste proc auto attacks

I’ve noticed that stealth utilities can provide a great pace setting tool. Any build I make using the hidden killer trait at 30 critical, gear for high power but not have to stack precision crit chance- so if someone is trying to cheese me, i can break the cc, stealth, and able to re enter the fight with a powerful critical from either backstab, unload, pistol whip, whichever strong attack I have (these are the main ones I can think of at the moment).

Starting there the best anti cheese build, or as I like to say the best setup for cheesing back the cheesers, I’ve found is 30 shadow 30 critical, for extra stealth healing and condition removal.

What are some other thief tactics you guys have used for thwarting the cheesy glass cannons in pvp?

personally d/p is my favorite set and i use it with celestial gear, and divinity runes. with my build 10/15/20/15/10

Actually if you have strong critical and some high +condition damage and duration, you do want to port away and just keep vital shotting them. it’s sort of ridiculous if they cant pin you down or clear the conditions. i usually get them up to 9 stacks in a few shots and then just mix in some sneak attacks for extra kaboom while healing up in stealth

good post—-

right, the spec shouldnt be nerfed. the underlying issues of too intense upscaling of critical damage and the power signet should just be corrected

havent read the full replies to thread but your post is promising in that i’ve lost a bit of my morale recently in spvp and my thief main there.. maybe all you say is true and I just need to pay attention to these fundamentals a little more.

I used it today with my 10-15-20-15-10 Divinity Celestial build because I’m frustrated with everything else. Lazily sitting there and strafing away while blasting up 3k or more crits and my thief summons wailing on them too. I’m like so this is why you might want the pistol pistol

seems like you have a bug going where you can keep it if you were stealthed already when you put down the refuge. i’m able to go off wherever i want if i was steal stealthed then popped the skill.. have like 15 seconds or something stupid of time. if i went into stealth on the refuge, you’re not allowed to leave the circle’s spot or you reveal right then

Not against you per so as much as there are ZERO odds in your favor in 2v1. You can’t defeat it. What i’m noticing here is the same as when you’re being cheesed by certain builds/ There does not exist enough stun/condition break (as I can’t clear root from a stun break?) to counter the cheese build even in a full build for breaking/condition defense. It just runs out and they are still stunning and blasting you. This feels worse than any battleground game I have played. Same for fighting 2 people. It’s just pointless. Your best bet is to just back out if you possibly can escape or fight them only on premise your teammate is headed over and you know they are about to arrive. This is just how I feel after 20 glory ranks and a good number of guild team losses in the free tournaments to either unkillable opponents or cheese burst that can’t possibly be dodged/blocked entirely. Two essentially hard counter playstyles, that do have some counterability and small windows of opportunity for thwarting and defeat, but which are so slim that the current gameplay has just lost its fun completely. I love this game and this is just how things have become, I’m dismayed. This is my feedback and I’d love more info that addresses where they are planning to go with it. This repsonse is difficult for me to submit as I know there will be criticism but I feel that this voice should be heard. I’m not the only one. There are some very severe issues making it difficult to have any more fun with any profession I have tried.

Love the profession as it combines superior mobility with avoidance and mitigation tools. A tanker’s dream profession. Loving the dynamic in the damage/control/support trinity

Obviously with thieves guild, the thief trap, and the trap proc during revive trickery trait!

And celestial amulet, dwayna runes, pistol dagger, and withdraw heal. And shadow refuge ;D

Really? This is a self condition removal tool?

ZLE.8293:

Tell me this is trolling,please.
I am condition thief and i never,never spam Death Blossom.
The worst thing thief can do is waste his initiative on a single condition burst,which will be removed from any remotely capable to play,and then kill the stupid thief.
In fact the i use my DB and C&D ratio is about 1:1 to ensure that i will outlive the target.
That’s our only chance with zero crit and zero burst.To outlive the target.
And don’t tell me it is OP,because it’s frikkin HARD to play any game style that involves
Cloak&Dagger.
With 5 cost of DB and 6 of C&D one missed skill can cost my life.
Sometimes i do it just about right and people rage /w me that i am a noob that plays OP class with OP build….
Other times i really mess things up and the people /w that i am a joke …..
SO please go play whatever UP class you play(probably Guardian who things he is Batman or something) and hopefully you might learn something.

This is some of the only sense that has been spoken among all the Kitten-Filled posts I’ve read on this thread. (yes I just wrote Kitten on purpose because I think the posts are really funny when someone’s text is changed to the kitten)

withdraw. or roll for initiative

that’s pretty much insta death as he puts condition damage on you and then reflects your own back on you too. i’d say the only counter would be sustained damage with a sword mainhand, letting you infil step to avoid his condition damage…

Yeah, there are SO many ways to differently configure and play thief.. it’s the thing that hooked me into this game though i’ve played a lot of the professions into pve and structured game. My favorite builds have always been beefy playstyles, with heavy use of stealths that heal me up significantly. I am also REALLY enjoying shortbow condition damage – cluster bomb, detonate, as I just got 40 in pve and went 15 acrobatics 15 trickery. i’m able to scoot around bleeding up many enemies or a stronger enemy and some adds. i always win. liking the profession better than ever after some buildcrafting growing pains

well i like build like this for tournament. but i have the condition removal on stealth and infusion of shadow (since you can refill initiative in the first few seconds of shadow refuge). i also use withdraw and roll for initiative. change between caltrops and blinding powder for middle slot. thieves guild just to help bolster if we have a heavy clash at a point early in a game. it’s just great. here’s an alternate though using pistol and shortbow, also designed around support and good resilience http://t.co/7PNDtALe

I like the rune of dwayna on top of all the other benefits i get with the 15 sec withdraw heal. it fits the aesthetic of the death blossom Flying Thief

i really like shortbow with 15 trickery points. as i just hit 40 i went 15 acrobatics 15 trickery. but sword pistol is great using ability 5 to blind the enemies, preventing damage

yeah add to that the fact that trees like trickery give you a sometimes worthless stack of condition damage. hastened replenishment is one of the greatest trait points to be paired up with withdraw, but then you’re stuck with weapons and a style that would use the condition damage. i agree with your basic ideas and would add that trait (minor, major) choices needs to be unlinked with specialization points for stats, with perhaps more freedom on which stats you boost, maybe a minor/major set of choices could make sense with 2 or 3 packages of points to place in whichever pair of major and minors you wanted.

actually it’s a really good skill and only put to full use when you have shadow rejuvenation and or the shadow replenishment to refill your initiative with just a few seconds of the stealth from it

Still ripping with my super executioner build, only haste procs (sigil of rage and critical haste), silly damage like 6-8000 per pistol whip executed. when it procs i actually kill people. rest of the time i just pressure them severely while being really resilient and reviving teammates or pulling off stealth finishes

I for one think that insane burst skills should really have a top limit which allows them to surge larger but only to a cap. The point of pistol whip is multiple- evade attacks, interrupt target, deal damage. I really love the ability. It should allow us to deal substantial damage by nature of landing the damage and improving our ability to outlive the enemy and kill them, since we are both evading and landing our attack.

The biggest problem I have with cloak and dagger reliant sets is the difficulty of landing these attacks just to be effective. It’s a bit cool actually that you can pull off sword/dagger with executioner builds and your main damage is the free/1 slot.

With all of that said what would make sense to me is haste making cast bars instant and making the execution of any channeling about 35 or 40% faster. Pistol whip is devastating for the above mentioned benefits and should also deal more damage the more strikes of it that land. It seems that is the core design where you deliver several strikes rather than just one that takes some amount of time to go off. I’m not sure how they came to the point of a 15% base damage change here, but I trust it is from all the quantitative data from combat situations showing damage to hp and time/efficiency averages, and went this route to address the total upward scaling of the damage. At base levels or moderate the adjustment is what it is. While surging upward, the impact is more limiting, it would seem.

Developers do not hate the profession. Let’s be reasonable here elthurien.

Weakness seems to be condition removal for non sword mainhand sets. I have to keep a dagger offhand and trait shadow embrace, then build around a lot of benefits from stealth. The shadow step utility is hard to fit in and on cooldown.

Getting dazed, chain stun and roots can also devastate. I can’t even hit my condition removal or escape buttons under heavy dazing and ragdolling some warriors blast me with. I think that some hard counter interplay keeps the game interesting, as those who build for specific hard counter will be just as badly hard countered by something else.

It’s not that I have no options that improve my defense and resilience to extend battles and my time to live and thereby kill. It’s just that with even one person outnumbering those tools become almost worthless. I get root, rag dolled, and dazed into the ground and just chuckle as I type a great job out for the opponents to give props where due. Well, at least in sets that don’t run a sword mainland where you get out of everything with infiltrator’s.

Yeah this can be kind of painful as you’re taunted by whichever prof has managed to blind or dodge your cloak and dagger repeatedly so you’re doing nothing without sneak attacks fitting in there. Considering trying to work in hidden thief to help. It helps a lot into builds that can’t get close on demand… Any dagger or pistol main hand

Quickness is a bit lame. Haste as a utility skill feels more to me like an elite ability. Why is one of the thief’s venoms an elite slot? Why is haste a regular utility? I like pistol whip but not for cheese burst, it is necessary to builds that want more versatility than cloak and dagger / shadow rejuvenation. The evasive attack is one of the best for well rounded playstyle

You already have a separate pvp spec. They just haven’t implemented the thing into world vs I’m told. That said I think your post is not in the correct forum

Not sure if this bug is the rune of dwayna or shadow protector. I can’t seem to get one or the other to go off when I have a regen boon running from the other. Regen states that it stacks duration. My expected outcome here is to get 6 sec of regen as I hit withdraw, then I may do cloak and dagger, adding another 5 seconds to be at a total of 10 at that point. Currently nothing happens as I do the 2nd action expected to give regeneration time

I find that strange that you would only trigger main or offhand effects. I don’t recall seeing that in the wiki. I will need to double check and do some testing today. I seem to be getting sigil of rage sitting in my offhand pistol, which would make sense for it to trigger on the first landed hit of pistol whip as a pistol opened attack, if that is accurate. I’ve been using sigil of blood and might for many of my build setups but have earth in my pistol/dagger set

Here’s a few items I see on the wiki page

-Sigils that trigger on critical hits can trigger on any critical hits; the critical does not need to be scored with the associated weapon’s skills. For example, a character with an off hand weapon imbued with a Sigil of Rage can still gain quickness with a critical hit with their first three skills.
-The weapon in the mainhand triggers active effects before the offhand.

While using rage & strength I cannot gain the might proc for the 45 sec cooldown after the quickness

Play a counter build. The brief time I spent playing Oshef’s signet/haste pistol whip build I found that any target using retaliation was instant win for them. People playing this way can and should be shut down by more well rounded build & playstyles. Cheese demands counter cheese.

Well rounded builds fighting each other can go on for a while and only end when team interplay begins, my or their allies show up and we settle it.

Good well rounded setups block cheese and are only countered by equally well rounded setups in even fights. They will overpower under defended opponents & flat out cheese the cheesers. This is the only game I’ve played where super specialist play is not the king, and I think the reason for that is the new role system where you can’t be direct healed.

Don’t change quickness. It forces players to consider well rounded defense and realize the flaws of one sided builds. Cheese needs to exist for the invention of effective counter-cheese. Only exploitative combos (if any exist) should be adjusted.

I disagree. I think pve mixed in pvp combat is amazing. My most fun encounters in random structured have been while fighting both opponents and the sharks or bosses. I feel that pve hybrid pvp has vast untapped potential, both for dungeon style content with player commanded monster enemies (see left 4 dead vs) or opposing teams and squads that have objectives both against each other and against ai/world targets. My idea for a game would be a horizontal progression dungeon based game with both hero and Mob faction playable, action combat, and gear for appearance and special abilities so that skill progression isn’t fixed

In my opinion no super specialist is viable. What you need is a strong offense and a respectable defense, all synergized to your style & weapon functionality. It makes no sense to build as a fragile offense machine or a mitigation & healing powerhouse. Both of these just make you a stoppable force. You need to find the mix that deals more pain to the opponent while also shaking off more than they can collectively throw your way. If you neglect those defenses you will fall to cc, burst, condition, too easily. If you can’t counter most if not all of these defenses you will be throwing noodles at people rather than making combat impact.

The only way specialized builds will work is with team synergy so that the utilities you all have enable each other to all survive while the heavy damage builds proceed to wreck face. With that said, why then would teams not want to simply all build well rounded with the same synergy on their utilities? This way your damage people can’t possibly be shut down because your assault will be multi pronged coming from everyone

Couldn’t there just be a colored aura of some sort, those with it are your enemies? Something to add a simple effect that isn’t hard to see and doesn’t cancel the whole armor color scheme- my idea would be a simple ICON where the name/hp bar appears above their head.

1: downed stat is awesome and makes all the close fights I’ve been in far more exciting than any other game. Another game that has this is left 4 dead
2: you don’t have to do the long cast, thus you’re still able to win on 2v1 or you’re up, 2 enemies are down, your 1 ally is down, by whacking the remaining life out of the downed enemy as you go.
3: it also forces you to have to react to revival attempts in the team fight, to either cc, interrupt, or do some reviving of your own, or even prepare to deal with the brought back opponent who will be low on health by re-downing them with a focused burst. Essentially the combat itself gains a lot of decision points and strategy possibilities since there is no immediate/insta kill (which encourages cheese burst even more)

why then I can shadow step to a soldier in the enemy keep on the structured map? it’s up a ledge I can not jump

this build works with the last 10 in acrobatics too. it makes you a shadow unicorn. dagger dagger and pistol dagger or shortbow. can work using withdraw / hastened replenishment or signet of malice

it doesn’t take longer. the effect lasts longer. if you look at mechanics of conditions it will make a little more sense.

Some conditons have duration extension while other have intensity stacks. you’d want anything that would make your duration stacked ones more powerful, and also add more time to those that normally only stack up intensity.

I have 2 also. 2nd has been asura and now norn male (super ultra).

only planning to clear any world content with the original. can set up different structured build outs on both.

I’m not sure it has a strength. at least for thief. There’s no sustained damage possible via conditions only. at best you could have a mixed approach with some condition damage and some power, leaving neither weak. Trying to be a superspecialist could be a mistake in this game. Hybrids may end up most viable

Here are some items to avoid while designing a condition damage build. These are completely non fundamental, so I wouldn’t recommend using any of these items to create your build or condition damage playstyle:

-1. The build can not work without a few tools for initiative restoration. You can get 30 trickery and withdraw heal slot with hastened replenishment for 4 init regain every 15 seconds, and/or 15 points into critical, there are a few trait choices in shadow for stealth return of initiative or faster restoration during stealth also, whatever fits into your build

-2. There is a weakness TO condition damage as with most thief builds, but setting up stats to counter standard damage is also difficult while retaining the right mix for offense and +heal. This means the build needs strong mobility and evasion, leading to best weapon set dagger dagger and shortbow or just two d/d with energy sigil. The best resistance to either damage type is excellent avoidance and kiting away.

-3. Synergistic sigils and traits add might or direct bleed. Sigil of earth can be very good, or superior blood to help mitigate condition damage that can’t be avoided. Although sigil of purity can remove a condition it can only hit 1 every 10 seconds, which seems weak in comparison to strength which does not cap (according to description) so can continue stacking might up.

A few other notes
-caltrops hits applying the bleeds to any enemies will cause a signet of malice heal.
-I find perfect synergy with runes of dwayna for the withdraw/hastened replenishment setup to give a strong regeneration boon every 15 seconds as well. you could also add pain response here to gain another regeneration that will be boosted from the rune set
-Still undecided on value of thrill of the crime vs uncatchable while using vigorous recovery to get vigor and increase dodging rate.

yuo will need tools to ensure initiative replenishment viability. this might work awesome with withdraw & hastened replenishment!.. problem being that you dont have bleed damage output directly on dagger pistol…

I’m not sure what your build is, but I am working on 30 shadow arts builds at the moment (shadow protector and shadow rejuvenation stacking.. works even better when I use runes of dwayna to extend the regeneration boon) and find that it can work well for control, and especially will synergize with condition damage for that reason. the problem i’m running in to is solving two issues, initiative starvation and condition damage defense, in my condition damage variants. so far my best defense against conditions has been outmitigating their damage since sword mainhand doesn’t have condition damage direct options.

it looks like from the initial fight you’ve got pistol dagger with cloak and dagger usage and the bleed attack. you also have venoms equipped and scorpion wire. i’m more interested the full build and which amulet and runes you have in the setup, maybe rampager which i’m really trying to work in to my final condition damage shadow healing build

sounds good, mange.

shadow’s embrace is one of the best and i usually use the 2nd slot in shadow to get it. first slot is shadow protector. why is this? i seem to clear one condition instantly and one more at the 3rd second.

i think 15 critical strikes is nearly essential, but 20 and 30 has great stuff for different styles. at the moment. there are some specific choices in the lower trees that can balance not having 15 critical but they very specific and lead to kind of low choice in the builds overall. the reason is you need to have solid initiative regain and stats to back it up. so some builds have signets of power and signet use. i think any dagger offhand set is very strong with shadow arts so you can get big heal / regen from the two traits, aslo