For the sake of thought, even if Anet went with something like changing the meta and making zerk less attractive, in a month people will have figured out the least defense they need while maximizing their offense, and the game will be back in the exact same place.
Basically, optimizing your offense will always be the best way to clear content. That is how all MMO’s work. Most MMO’s just cover up that fact with a tank/healer to cover the entire defense for the party, but at the end of the day still require as much DPS as possible from the DPS classes.
In GW2, everyone is the DPS class.
My reaction to this is to ask, what is the goal? Is it to put Warriors back into the bad spot they were last year? I don’t see Warriors face rolling matches left and right. If anything HS needs to have a buff to it’s scaling with healing power. Make putting points into healing useful!
No.
HS needs the base heal to be extremely nerfed and the Healing Power scaling buffed.Healing Signet is not the only thing holding warriors up from where they were last year.
Yeah because warriors should be the only class that has to stacking healing power to have an effective heal in PVP. kitten warriors amirite?
I always enjoy these threads. It’s always “Zerk players, your playstyle is lesser and our tanky mindless playstyle is better!”
Especially things like making active dodge, one of the most skillful things that the game has going for it, less important. While increasing the mindlessness of just stacking defenses.
ANET:
we introduce ascendent armor !!Player:
QQ 450 gold to craft a full set it requires 30 laurel plenty of time gated mat QQ1 month later
Player:
Finally i’ve complete my zerker ascendend armor, it costed a lot, but now finally i’m done2 day later
Jon Peters:
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berrserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.is this a troll, yeah?
I WILL quit this game if Anet messes this up. I have 2 sets of zerker ascended armor made already.
Most of my friends already quit because they were tired of the boring “balls deep DPS” Zerker kitten. The change is probably too late to bring all of them back, but some of them might come back if the change is solid.
I don’t really understand how it’s boring to do DPS. Is doing less DPS and being tankier going to somehow make the game more fun? Are fights taking longer going to be more fun?
Following that reasoning, I would do the following to healing signet:
Cooldown: 15 seconds.
Passive: 330 HP / second with a 0.05 coefficient.
Active: 4450 HP with a .75 coefficient.
Because of how signets work, this would make it a completely pointless heal. It would never be used by Warriors if it was changed to this.
It screws the passive for an active that’s pointless, because you still would not want to pop it.
Healing signet is completely fine as it is now. It’s a steady source of healing that has multiple counters. It’s not unpredictable, you aren’t going to be surprised by a sudden heal. Hell you don’t even need to keep track of the warriors heal like you do against other classes. You don’t need to time your poisons, or time your dazes. It requires less thinking for the warriors opponent than it does even for the warrior.
[…] “boss aura” […]
Borrowing this name from you Guanglai :p
(but with a different idea of mine)Boss Aura
Bosses only take X% damage, goes up by Y% every Z seconds
(doesn’t have to be liniar)Example:
Only takes 1% of damage you deal, goes up by 1% every 5 secondsWhy
It would make it harder for pure-zerkers to just burst it down with almost no risk.
Now you need to either coordinate your dodges/aegis very good or put in a bit more survivability.
Bosses would take a bit longer, but everything would still be doable for full zerkers.It could even go into 100+% damage. That would be nice for more defensive groups, since it gets faster the longer they need for the boss (or in other words: stay alive)
It would make bosses take a bit longer for speedrun-groups, making it harder to do in pure-zerker, but wouldn’t nerf zerker-groups, especially not good coordinated groups.
At the same time it would make some defensive stats better for average good players (without a good coordinated group) and even let them be a bit faster than before (if the “Boss Aura” goes to 100+% damage)Your thoughts?
I think that’s a completely awful, awful idea.
How is there no risk for zerkers? People, just because zerkers do more damage doesn’t mean that the boss doesn’t have time to one shot you. It does.
Zerk gear is the most skillful way to play the game, because if you make a mistake you die.
“Play the way I want”
Does not means
“Please, keep this game broken so I can abuse it”
To turn that around in your face, what you’re asking for is the game to be broken for others so you can play it how YOU want.
Not really, because the best defense isn’t based on stats. The best defense is skills and evades.
Evade, Blind(sometimes), reflect, block, etc are far more important the harder the content gets. Not toughess/vit/healing pow.
Imagine an encounter forces you to operate a machine or a weapon like a mortar in WvW. No evade, no normal skills for you available. Who could operate the device longer when you get constantly damaged? Berserker or bunker?
I imagine that it’s crappy game design. But then I don’t like having control of my character removed to play some pre-determined world object instead.
I play the game to play my character.
Fine. Lets just leave healing signet as it is. Lower base health of warriors 5%.
Still wouldn’t help, they’d still heal more than the damage you can deal. No, the only way out IS a nerf of the signet’s passive, despite what Jon thinks. We don’t need to give it a massive nerf, but right now it’s too much when combined with 20 in the defense line. Try fighting one of these guys not only in sPvP, but in WvW. There’s really no killing them right now solo.
You can’t do more than 400-600 DPS? I think that might be a problem on your side, not the warriors.
The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.
Jon
This too. It is never, ever worth it to use the active. Literally, you should never use it.
even if you made toughness or vitality stats 2x as good or healing power 10x as good zerk will always rule
No, you can design encounters where your defense is much more important than your offense.
Not really, because the best defense isn’t based on stats. The best defense is skills and evades.
Evade, Blind(sometimes), reflect, block, etc are far more important the harder the content gets. Not toughess/vit/healing pow.
Are we still discussing this? Anyone who thinks that heal signet is OP is ignorant of it’s downsides.
-Inability to counter burst or sudden damage.
-Especially weak to poison (Other heals only require poison to be removed for one second before healing, poison is essentially 100% effective against heal signet)This combined with Warriors general lack of Blind/Protection (1 blind, 1 protection if heavily traited) makes healing signet really not OP.
And people that don’t think it’s too good are looking at it in a vacuum.
Yes, Healing Signet is not the best against burst, but warriors have other abilities to avoid burst (Shield Stance, Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, greatsword whirlwind, etc) and also have the option of CC’ing their opponent in many builds.
Yes, it’s weak to poison. But not every class has access to poison or a good way to apply it. And not everyone is a condition build, so taking sigil of doom isn’t the best option. Balancing around the assumption that the opponent has a specific boon or condition is bad design. When it does, it cements certain builds of certain classes as being required in a team. You already see that with guardians because of their wealth of group stability.
If warriors are too weak if a specific ability or trait was not used, it doesn’t mean the ability should stay as-is; it’s further evidence that it’s too good. Instead, that specific ability should be toned down so that others can be boosted, allowing for more variety.
While we’re looking past the vacuum, another thing that gets overlooked is the adrenaline gain aspect of Cleansing Ire that shoots warriors to full adrenaline, giving them a constant full benefit of Adrenal Health. Since Cleansing Ire is so common in warrior builds, it’s hard to say if Healing Signet is fully to blame. Without that adrenaline gain from being hit, Adrenal Health wouldn’t be nearly as effective.
I will partly agree with Deimos Tel Arin.7391 that Healing Signet is not way too good, but probably just a little too good. Shaving some of the passive off along with a cooldown reduction or increase to the active heal would help balance it and add skill in deciding when to use it and when to save it.
If they shave anything off of healing signet, it would no longer need to exist. Warriors would just switch to healing surge, and the forums would whine about that.
Cleansing ire is common in warrior builds because it’s nearly impossible to play without it.
I already discussed not dealing with warrior heals in a vacuum. Warrior defenses are as follows – one/two blocks (very few warriors use a shield in PvP/WvW), basically zero sources of protection, one blind if you actually use that weapon.
A warriors survivability is almost purely based on their health and self heals. They have few other sources of mitigation.
Hundred blades is balanced by the fact that you are completely immobile while doing it, leaving it wide open for being avoided/evaded.
You’re correct about Greatsword….in PVE. In PVE Greatsword should be worn by 100% of Warriors, with your offhand being Axe+Mace.
For PVP/WvW with the insane nerfs to Hammer, Greatsword popularity probably only increased. (I don’t know, I see a lot of S/S/LB now.)
Your adrenaline suggestion is stupidly laughable, for two reasons:
1. Generally you don’t even use your adrenaline because the benefits of simply holding 3 bars far outweighs use.
1. No other class has to suffer for using their class defining ability, so unless you suggest also ramming them, that’s just QQ.
(edited by Ahlen.7591)
Are we still discussing this? Anyone who thinks that heal signet is OP is ignorant of it’s downsides.
-Inability to counter burst or sudden damage.
-Especially weak to poison (Other heals only require poison to be removed for one second before healing, poison is essentially 100% effective against heal signet)
This combined with Warriors general lack of Blind/Protection (1 blind, 1 protection if heavily traited) makes healing signet really not OP.
As much as I hate Ascended gear and want it gone, It’s too late now. Arenanet can’t just take ascended gear from players who worked a lot for it, that’s wrong.
Unfortunately, that is true. What could possibly be done however, and what i still hope they could be persuaded to do, is to make ascended gear easily accessible, following original spirit that game was supposed to have. And to stop with any further VP ideas Anet might have.
How is ascended gear not easily accessible? Seriously. That is a terrible argument I see all the time on the forums. The gear is INCREDIBLY accessible. If you play for only an hour a day, you should have at least 2 ascended weapons, and full trinkets by now.
Everything at various times. All of it.
Conditions are badly mostly due to condition cap and scaling issues for PVE.
Conditions only scaling off of two stats instead of 3 is what really kills them.
I’d probably quit because there would be nothing left to shoot for in the game. Not to mention if they just stripped all the effort/time I put into something, I’d be pretty kitten ed.
Zerk warriors are either utter-fail or super-runners.
Checklist of good zerk warriors:
1. Understands melee boss mechanics and times dodges and skills well.
2. Uses banners (discipline, strength) because it helps the entire team improve DPS.
3. Uses other banners (defense, tactics) occasionally for eles and guardians.
4. Uses elite banner under two conditions: (a) difficult resses, (b) improving team DPS further.
5. Switches to rifle (not longbow) for ranged damage.
6. Does a good amount of weapon-swapping in general, getting in and out of combat depending on skill cool-downs.
7. May trait banners for regeneration.
8. May run with shield and fully absorb first hits/distract enemies for several seconds for pulling or gathering.Checklist of bad zerks:
1. Runs with multiple ‘selfish’ signets. Signets are fine for doing content solo, but bad in teams.
2. Does not understand the utility of banners.
3. Does not understand how the interactions of other team members create opportunities for burst damage.
lol. Longbow is better than rifle in literally every way. Single, AoE, and group support.
Rifle is butt. Good Zerk warriors also don’t use shields, if you want to use an offhand with your axe you use a Sword or a Mace.
Also please don’t try to trick people into thinking Banner of Tactics or Defense are any good. They are not. They are bad.
It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.
In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.
GW2 is not alt friendly at all. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System
GW2 is the most alt-friendly MMO to ever exist. Seriously. Stop saying it’s not. There are only two things in the entire game that off the top of my head aren’t alt friendly, and that’s fractals and WvW exp.
I don’t know, this might be a foreign concept for some people but you might want to consider leveling to 80 by a means that is not exclusively crafting, such as… well… playing the game?
“Play how you want”, buddy. Not everyone wanna level a character traditional way when it’s more time and cost efficient to just craft. Not to mention it’s boring as hell to go out in the open world. WvW karma train makes it less painful though.
“Play how you want” logic can only go so far. Come on man. They want people to go out and experience the content that they made. If you aren’t interested in the world content, why even bother playing at all.
Devil’s advocate question: How casual does someone need to be before we ignore their feedback? If you only play an hour a week, should your opinion really carry any weight?
10 for sure. If you say anything below 8 you probably shouldn’t be playing MMO’s.
Keep in mind that endgame comes in MANY forms. The only thing that it really means is ‘things to do after max level’. Whether that be some form of raiding, gathering, crafting, or exploring.
People don’t understand healing signet and it’s downsides, it’s easier to QQ about it than it is to learn the ways to beat it. =/
Thieves have many different forms of evasion, blind, and repositions – that’s why their health is low.
Guardians/Elementalists have access to many, many different skills with protection or block or regen – that’s why their health is low.
Uh, yes, I get that. It doesn’t change anything. The difference in utility does not fully compensate for the difference in defense. Due to that, warriors (and guardians because much of their defense is passively generated) have much higher skill floors than Thieves and Elementalists. The former two are dramatically easier to steamroll through content with than the latter two are because they can just stand there and tank everything.
I’m not saying that Thieves and Elementalists should be able to do it as well as they can, I’m just saying the gap should be smaller.
Again, you will have to take some pretty big nerfs more than likely for any HP increases. So be careful what you wish for.
Warriors have for all intents and purposes no access to protection, little access to vigor, and 1(?) blind. Their heal skill, HP pool, and possibly adrenal, is all that keeps them alive.
Don’t use hammer or burst mastery, doesn’t matter to me!
0/20/20/10/20 forever!
Thieves have many different forms of evasion, blind, and repositions – that’s why their health is low.
Guardians/Elementalists have access to many, many different skills with protection or block or regen – that’s why their health is low.
Honestly, having 2k more health would be much worse than the obvious nerfs they would need to their other utilities.
Bunker grenade engi, bunker guard. Always good always useful.
Also Warriors were not crazy at launch. Warriors were kitten at launch, they were definitely good at beating 0 toughness scrubs though.
One more thing I forgot to mention. The nice thing about Incendiary Powder was that it was a nice build neutral go to for adept tier. Right now the new build neutral traits there are Exploit Weakness and Empowering Adrenaline. I think a good discussion might be why these are not up to par as build neutral adept tier explosives traits.
Jon
Because they’re both inconsistent and terrible? And completely useless in PVE. Exploit Weakness might be ok if it was 50% instead of 25%, with a 10s ICD in PVP.
While we’re here, can we look at pistol 1? That bleed needs to be at least 4 seconds, seriously. And Rifle 3 needs to have a bit longer/larger radius for it’s high damage hit.
S/S/LB is my preferred PvP and WvW build personally. Mostly because I roam and S/S is far better for roaming.
The only thing I’d like is if the animation fired faster. It’s the most telegraphed move in GW2, so if someone has End they’re gonna roll it really easily.
Switch to non hammer? Warrior is still strong. They have a lot of other really good weapon combinations for WvW, and nothing else really changed.
I was fine (even though I disagreed with it)with ascended trinkets, there are plenty of ways to get them that don’t require me to craft up to 500 (which is a grind in itself) and then farm meta events and dungeons which I have no interest in doing. Ascended weapons came out, and I made 1. After that I quit, or should I say, I am taking a break from the game until I start agreeing with Anets direction. Ascended discourages alts and build variety and is a pain in the kitten to make. They could have at least made the weapons sellable on the TP so that people who do craft them can make some money off of them and those that don’t want to craft can just buy the kitten things.
Can you explain to me how ascended discourages alts? Laurels are account bound, weapons are account bound until you equip them (and I can only assume armor will be too).
That incendiary change is beyond brutal. Kills Pistol/HGH build. =/
“We want to increase build diversity for Engi’s, so we’re going to flatout kill elixir builds by moving incendiary to master.”
Confusing change is confusing. Pistol/HGH is dead now with that one change.
Warrior change doesn’t matter to me, S/S/LB is better for roaming than Hammer was anyway, but the changes to hammer and unsuspecting kill that build entirely, so expect a new warrior meta to emerge.
Loot always take priority over picking up banners.
ALWAYS.
This is PEBKAC.
This is the opposite of what should be done!
No downed state AT ALL in WvW!
Make gates tougher based on the number of enemies nearby. Like a champion mob, but leave the repair amount per supply as it is now.
Lack of burst heal would be problematic for low base health professions such as elementalist. Warriors however can afford sustained healing much better thanks to their high health pool and toughness, among other things (utilities, mobility) which makes them overall more durable in combat.
Short encounters might be problematic, but warriors can lockdown targets and prolong fights thanks to their weapon set (hammer, longbow, mace, shield) that offers considerable CC and Shield Block. A stunned or knocked-down target means no damage to the warrior which means a small breathing room for the passive healing to tick.
Poison is not exactly a hard-counter when they have Berserk Stance and Cleansire Ire at their disposal.
I’m not analyzing the passive heal by itself, which definitely has it pros and cons compared to burst heal, but the heal combined with the whole strengths of warriors (high damage, high mobility, high base defense, solid condition removal and access to stability, high CC), which in that case, I reiterate: most professions will have to give up something relevant for notable regen.
My objective is not to claim “warrior OP” or something. I’m just pointing out how passive regen does complement warrior’s strengths much better, while sacrifing little compared to other professions.
And warriors have almost no blind or protection, and no aegis. Checks and balances.
They have block, but give up damage output to do so.
I think you guys are missing one huge thing fractal’s offers. They offer large karma rewards based on your level. Basically Anet is pushing new players into fractal’s. They want ascended weapons or a legendary.
The current ascended weapon’s cost 15 obsidian shards each to make.
Each obsidian shard cost 2100 karma so you need 31,500 karma. I know some people would say do events which is true but each event gives at most 400 karma so you would need to do 79 event’s to get the karma. That is not completely true either since after about 10-12 events you get diminishing returns for the next few hour’s.
This new karma starvation system that Anet is using forces new player’s into fractals.
Already have enough karma to choke a donkey to death. Even after buying multiple full sets of Orr gear.
Ascended > Exotic. Therefore remove Ascended gear.
Exotic > Rare. Therefore remove Exotic gear.
Rare > Masterwork. Therefore remove Rare.
Masterwork > White. Therefore remove Masterwork.I think the complainers would be happy if everyone was on the same level – Basic White gear. But they fail to realize that WvW is not SPvP. If they’re not happy with WvW, they should stick to the structured PvP part of the game, where everything is even.
But hark, there’s more:
Superior Runes can give an unfair advantage as well, since they add bonus stats to a player’s attributes. And since Superior Runes are so hard to come by in WvW… well, you know how the current argument goes.
The “complainers” appear to be the majority of the people who play WvWvW. Maybe you should go over to those forums and tell them exactly how their game mode is supposed to work and why their opinions mean nothing? Clearly, you’re the only person who’s opinion actually matters, right?
Majority of WvW’ers don’t post on the forums, argument invalid.
It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.
You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.
Then why introduce the gear if it isn’t needed?
Because many people like to get higher numbers, they find that enjoyable.
And just as many find it annoying, while many others just couldn’t care less. Meanwhile, the players who DO want “higher numbers” are a lot more likely to quit sooner and be less profitable for the developer, as I already explained above.
Oh yeah, I mean we saw how unprofitable WoW was with it’s vertical progression/gearing.
Literally the least profitable MMO there is.
Oh yeah, it was so succesful that they made it harder to keep up with progression to keep players in the game.
Oh wait…
And yet even now, it is ten times easier to get ascended in GW2 than current tier gear in WoW.
Gonna guess OP plays a thief.
As someone mentioned, you usually have to give up in some areas in order to have a solid regen.
The only exception being healing signet warriors.
Healing signet warriors give up the ability to do burst heals, and are countered more by poison than any other heal (With a big heal you only need 1s without poison, with healing signet the poison is always reducing your healing).
Engineer – Give them Hammer as a melee weapon.
I was actually thinking this just the other day. I can run like, 3-5 dungeon paths in the time it takes to complete one fractal cycle and get 5-6 gold from that.
Also, people who are at high level fractals and doing them regularly are probably about done with the ‘fun and challenge’ of them.
It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.
You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.
Then why introduce the gear if it isn’t needed?
Because many people like to get higher numbers, they find that enjoyable.
And just as many find it annoying, while many others just couldn’t care less. Meanwhile, the players who DO want “higher numbers” are a lot more likely to quit sooner and be less profitable for the developer, as I already explained above.
Oh yeah, I mean we saw how unprofitable WoW was with it’s vertical progression/gearing.
Literally the least profitable MMO there is.
" from a realistic standpoint, carrying the large sword on your shoulder"
LOL! As someone else pointed out, there is zero realism in the concept of a greatsword 6-8 feet long and weighing 200-300 pounds. Almost ALL of the weapons in GW2 are at least double a realistic size. Daggers are the size of swords, swords are the size of greatswords, and greatswords are the size of…. um…. Volkswagens.
So if Anet were to change anything about greatswords, I would respectfully suggest that it should be a downsizing, not the run animations.
Perhaps I don’t know….reading the whole post? Cherry picking is fun though I guess.