Guild Wars 2

Why they can use F skills while downed since no other class can use any skill except those on the downed bar?

Lots of questions around….but no answers, hey karl, js? Can you hear me?

Meanwhile i don’t go custom arenas with my hybrid guardian (Nothing so top secret or over the top, but i’d rather keep it for me until i find something better) 20 20 0 0 30 shatter and it’s fine, if you want to go hotjoin and you don’t want ppl to see your build just go with something else, almost everything is good for hotzerg just pick one..

I don’t understand the “Now” part in the title.

LovefulfillsAll.4870:

jportell.2197:

Can remove condition while reflecting conditions? What the hell are you smoking? Mesmer condi removal is worst in game by far… And any “reflects” we have are projectile only… We can not Randomly gain protection unless we have signet of inspiration which is a rarity in pvp or chaos armor which is a bright purple bubble. The only time we actually gain protection is if we have chaos armor up or we are traited for it… In which case we won’t be doing all that much damage….. Mesmer is not a do everything class… I’m sorry but they really are not.

Your doing it wrong, and obviously there is a build you don’t know about if anyone tries to deny the things this class can do all in one. Because those ones that I run into that face roll (Yes they are very good) Do everything I said.. Every single thing , including removing conditions and putting them on the original caster.

You don’t know your own class well if you don’t know it can do this with the proper building.

This is just EPIC.

Btw i need this uber multipurpose facerolling build of doom too…and don’t forget to teach bill gates how windows works too….

LovefulfillsAll.4870:

~Can remove condition while reflecting the conditions back on the original caster.

~Built in vigor on some things, making it dodge constantly

…they heal great.

If you’re talking about tpvp mesmers then all i can say is…lol, because yeah we all run arcane thievery in our 10 spaces utility bar, along with a full set of healings, portal, some of those unknown uber dmg phantasms (Yeah we all run a 140 trait points phantashatter spec) and for sure 3 stealths…for the “built in vigor on some things” (Really accurate description)most likely a sigil of energy on both weapon sets…and yes it works even if you’re not a mesmer…

Ultima.8673:

suldaris is not macroing but some teams like forsaker’s team report suldaris right when the tourney starts (i watched his streams)….. but now u can watch him play and learn on my team’s server :/

best teef eu imo

yeah i saw him playing in that match and he’s nice, dunno if he’s the best thief around cuz you can’t rate someone during an “hotjoin mess” but definately an effective burst, can’t remember last time a burst thief managed to land all his combo on me before him (That’s why i took a look on how he did it)…just wanna give this combo a try even if i’m probably not going back to thief for tpvp…mesmer\guardian and maybe ranger (work in progress) it’s more than enough atm since we haven’t a stable tpvp team either right now

Nettle.9025:

Yep I can do that combo before the HS animation leaps out of the middle of the BP field. You don’t need macros to do it either. It’s not tough.

I totally left my thief many months ago and only burst were s/p and d/d and i noticed this “trick” only today, already saw many d/p obviously but never put attention on how their combo is performed cause i don’t go read combat log in tpvp, since they were quite ineffective too, but being in hotjoin gave me time to take a look at it, for sure it won’t change anything cause you just have to evade thief’s burst no matter how they perform it…but it’s good to know anyway..

Jericho.4521:

Well it’s just that the stealth procs right after the HS, you’re not stealthed as you land it. Combo fields are weird. Most of the time they proc the effect as soon as you use a finisher, but this is the once instance where I think it doesn’t do that on purpose.

Problem is that i didn’t see hs too, seeing a thief leaping with hs at you leads to an automatic f4 or phase retreat…ok i was already on another guy and i missed bp shot hitting me but hs is pretty visible and i’m almost sure he was already stealthed when it landed also because i was aware he was around cause i shattered him seconds before (He ate all of it and was still up..dam ._.) and meanwhile i was only evading a ranger’s pet (Also coming from stealth >.<)..then bang…from nowhere xD

Thought hs on bp field was supposed to give you stealth as soon as you are jumping outside bp field but breaking it if hitting someone even with the same hs…didn’t know that bp+hs (+steal trick) leads to an invisible hs that won’t break stealth…oh well…time to take my thief out of the closet and try it xD Still wondering if you need macros to pull this out…since never used macros from gw1 and never will, just hate them >_<

At first i tought it was a normal (And really nice one) backstab combo so i took a look at combat log, well i didn’t really see bp shot hitting me (I was already fighting a ranger) so i was like “ok it’s d/p” but then i saw a really strange thing…an HS before backstab, i know you can use bp field to go stealth but isn’t hs supposed to break stealth on hit? Combo was probably bp>steal>hs (stealth)>backstab all felt like 2 massive hits (Like a c&d>steal>bs combo)…no problem on avoiding it, dmg is not the problem and it was hotzerg ehm..custom arenas so don’t really give a kitten xD I just would really like to know how you can land an hs and still being in stealth for backstab, if it’s something like a bug or just another macro?

kostbabis.8791:

Archaon.6245:

Eles crying because they’re pretty balanced now…

made my day..

I still kick the kitten of every mesmer i meet .If you think we are balanced then thank you,you made my day :P

Mesmer is known for being weak against eles like every other spec with many aoes, but it’s a normal mechanic, aoes kills clones and phantasms and you can do nothing to prevent it….spec advantage is one thing, being op is another and ele is pretty balanced now…imo..

garethh.3518:

Archaon.6245:

Ursan.7846:

Funny story. I was sPvPing yesterday. I was 1v2ing 2 mesmers. They burst me down pretty quickly. One mesmer leaves while the other remains to finish me off.

My dog KD’s him. Then I stop him with 2. Then I swap pet and my 2nd dog KD’s him. And suddenly, he’s down, and I’m 1-ing him to death while my dog revived me.

Ranger downed state is hilarious. I love it so much.

i think we all love it…right?

1 dodge roll or distortion shatter.
L2P.

Btw I have completely killed a thief with my pets while in the downed state.
He ran in to stomp me, I 2’ed, he shadow refuged, I used wolf fear, he came back to stomp, wolf knocked down, he went to heal, I 2’ed again and swapped to the drakehound for another knockdown… he died….
I laughed for like 5 minutes.

Oh yes we all know rangers can actually use F skills while downed, like every other class right? ..not? Pretty sure there’s a good reason why they can still use other skills and not only downed ones like every other class…but i just can’t find it..is it something related to balancing pets being so weak? I’m just curious..

Eles crying because they’re balanced now…you’re just mortal like everyone else after patch, deal with it..

Straight from ranger’s forum here you are:

Ursan.7846:

Funny story. I was sPvPing yesterday. I was 1v2ing 2 mesmers. They burst me down pretty quickly. One mesmer leaves while the other remains to finish me off.

My dog KD’s him. Then I stop him with 2. Then I swap pet and my 2nd dog KD’s him. And suddenly, he’s down, and I’m 1-ing him to death while my dog revived me.

Ranger downed state is hilarious. I love it so much.

i think we all love it…right?

The only really viable quickness atm it’s tw cause it has no debuffs (Even with ages of cd) so it’s still worth it, for everything else giving a bad malus for nerfed quickness it’s probably not so good, expec if you have to drop other important ut skills for it…

…meanwhile i’m making a bm ranger for tpvp…also need the forth champ title and ranger is the best way atm for sure..

Vylor.3276:

I have 2 80’s a warrior and a ranger. Honestly. If you know the class of warrior ranger should be a challenge, everything should actually be a challenge. When I play my ranger the problem is people DON’T kill the pet, and that’s why i can beat them. I’m sorry anet made you think and use strategy while fighting something.

Problem is they actually buffed all pet’s survivability…so this well know and not always effective counter strategy is now worthless…

Xsorus.2507:

Archaon.6245:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Awhy the buff on pets?!?!

Because someone still managed to kill pets…but apparently pets must not die, their bunker specced ranger won’t die too so you’ve just better to give up cuz now we basically have a bunker ranger+tons of evades+conditions AND a dps pet with more tough and hp to face able to chase you for the whole kittening map..

…yeah…fortunately i already lost all hopes months ago so i don’t care so much, i’ll just reroll ranger if needed, it’s easy to play and it takes a very short time to bring it on a tpvp level (3-4 hours in hotzerg aka custom arenas or whatever they are it’s more than enough, just to memorize the skillbar and cds)…not so much skills needed and good rewards for a cheap price..

btw i already said (Something like 2 months ago) that bunker char + dps pet is clearly nonsense since pets must follow their owner’s base points, you can’t just give a “pocket warrior” to a bunker….

Dps Spec = Dps Pet
Bunker\Condition Spec = Bunker\Condition Pet

No matter which animal you take, stats must always be based on owner’s ones.

But we all know…anet used to do 1 thing right (Ele nerf in this case) and screw up everything else with every patch…so not a big surprise after all..

You won’t reroll Ranger, Because it actually requires some amount of skill to play one.

Not really, already made a bm for fun some weeks ago and wasn’t hard to play at all expec if you already play mesmer and you’re used to AI dmg dealing things and a lot of F skills spamming…and meanwhile you realize that pets deal the same amount of dmg of traited glass phantasms and they’re more tough than the mesmer himself…just saying..wanna complain about izerk’s dmg? Just take a look at a jaguar (+ stealth wtf)/raven first…while his owner is not a glass cannon at all…

Daecollo.9578:

Why is ranger’s pet better then the Warrior?

You’re wrong…correct question is “Why pets already were stronger than warriors and now you made then even more op?”

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Awhy the buff on pets?!?!

Because someone still managed to kill pets…but apparently pets must not die, their bunker specced ranger won’t die too so you’ve just better to give up cuz now we basically have a bunker ranger+tons of evades+conditions AND a dps pet with more tough and hp to face able to chase you for the whole kittening map..

…yeah…fortunately i already lost all hopes months ago so i don’t care so much, i’ll just reroll ranger if needed, it’s easy to play and it takes a very short time to bring it on a tpvp level (3-4 hours in hotzerg aka custom arenas or whatever they are it’s more than enough, just to memorize the skillbar and cds)…not so much skills needed and good rewards for a cheap price..

btw i already said (Something like 2 months ago) that bunker char + dps pet is clearly nonsense since pets must follow their owner’s base points, you can’t just give a “pocket warrior” to a bunker….

Dps Spec = Dps Pet
Bunker\Condition Spec = Bunker\Condition Pet

No matter which animal you take, stats must always be based on owner’s ones.

But we all know…anet used to do 1 thing right (Ele nerf in this case) and screw up everything else with every patch…so not a big surprise after all..

Swim.6830:

Working as intended… unless you want arrows to have a bent path…

So it’s time to apply this on rangers too..

It’s not all about build…more than 50% is HOW you play it…and you can’t just copy that..a good build doesn’t make you a good player if you don’t know how to play it..

ensoriki.5789:

Im curious how much longer Mantra of Pain has before they nerf it.

Well matras just suck and they will still suck after patch so noone is going to bring them in tpvp imo….believe me i already tried them like almost every other mesmer and once you traited and everything is fine you fire your uber traited mantras (After preparing them of course, while everyone in the other team can just take your pants off and slap your kitten during cast) and you end up like -__-

….and 2 minutes later you already rerolled back to shatter..

Illusions(25): III, I

No reason to leave out one of the best shatter traits aka illusionary persona..

xiv.7136:

Also what if all shouts broke stuns, removed a condition and applied regeneration and vigor, and shieldstance/endurepain prevented condition damage, and mending removed all conditions, and dodging turned you into optimus prime

Pretty much actual ele’s state, since 4+ months ago..oh you forgot healing on those dodges and being able to disengage and refull on demand too…

MIrra.3604:

in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.

WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.

WvsW is fine the way it is because noone cares about balance there, there’s no balance in wvsw, it’s already terribly umbalanced due to gear, levels, zergs…and zergs and zergs..and btw this is spvp forum and noone gives a single kitten bout stupid wvsw here…try to complain on wvsw forum, but i don’t think it would be an important thread anyway…until random ppl can zerg around faceroling other random ppl like chickens it’s ok, wvsw doesn’t need skills so it doesn’t need to be so balanced…who has the best gear/biggest zerg only matters…no skill or single class balance needed thet’s why wvsw is paired with pve and pvp is on a totally different area of the game..

Mantra cast time reduced from 3.25s to 2.75s

Yeahhhhh that’s what i was waiting for!!!! Mantra opppp!!!

…meanwhile after all those bug fixes pretty sure we’re still going to stuck into walls and stuff when porting…….

…seriously…kitten off… xD

Funny thing is that last week all those eles were claiming rtl must not be affected by chill, cripple and cc in general cause it’s different from other movement skills…and now they all whine saying it would be fine being cc because they’re gettin 40 secs cd on miss so they can’t just spam it like midless bots (Like pretty much the rest of their skill chain) or use it like a “Get out of jail” free card everytime they’re losing a fight…

Can’t stop laughing at this…

Luthan.5236:

They don’t need to disengage. They engage, kill and win(or die).

This, welcome to the real world.

Minion of Vey.4398:

Some people drop WAY too early too.

Score can be 110 to 40 and they’re like OMG I’M OUT NOOBS.

110 – 40 at start is not a good situation, 70-80 pnts are an big gap unless you are at spirit watch or toss where you can get orbs/buffs to close it quickly or you just left a forest’s boss while others already did it…but it can be done plus leaving gives you an istant lost match and you can’t relog in since you would end up into the current match until it’s over, so there’s no reason at all to leave matches imo.

But well if you end up in something like this

http://s21.postimg.org/lfo4r13yv/gw034.jpg

i can’t really blame their thief for ragequitting…and he left around 400 – 0 …total matchmaking fail still gg for keep trying till the end even with no chance to win, but this is a rare case, many times a match that appears to be already lost can be saved if you start to play smart, hard to do if pug but it can be done..or at least you must try..

And that’s the reason why i absolutely don’t care bout ladder, i still go solo (Many times with fancy specs like dps Scepter/Torch guardian), i still go with r20 guilmates and friends and i still have fun…if aiming to high rank means you can’t play for fun when and how you want, or even worse you’ve better not to play at all, there’s no reason to play a game imo, since games are supposed to be fun…or not?

Yeah let’s nerf warriors more because now eles must finally l2p.

Sounds legit.

I still go soloq many times a day for fun (Facing premades and losing many times off course) like i used to do, giving a kitten bout ladders and stuff but i noticed that after I stopped playing for something like 7-8 days i actually went up in the leaderboard, dunno how this thing really works and i don’t care, but rewarding ppl for being inactive sounds a bit stupid to me…expec considering the actual lack of active players in pvp…

I think almost everyone here got a build completely erased from game…from 100 nades to dazelock thief (Like me) and we just moved on and started playing something else or even another class….you are going to get some nerfs (And not that huge like tactical strike/mesmer runes nerf that completely ruined S/D thieves for example) on a class that has been totally broken for 4+ months and you still have the impudence of whining? You lived for no risk/high reward for months and now you qq for some nerfs because they would actually make you l2p a bit for being effective? I mean…are you kittening serious? I saw ppl complaining because being able to avoid death and refull on demand going back in seconds…rinse and repeat again and again and again is considered ele’s playstyle…if you consider being broken and able to troll other classes all day (Even with bunker that as a bunker is supposed to have pretty much no mobility) as your actual playstyle it’s time to really l2p putting some skills in order to survive, like every other class already does…and if you’re not able to do so…sorry, no offence but you’ve better to go back pve/wvsw already..

Stealth.9324:

So I suggest to remove Eles, at least I don’t have to see my favour class everyday I log in but unable to play"..?

You would be unable to play an ele with rtl on 40 secs cd if you miss?

What can i say? Here’s an example of the average ele player?

just..lol..

bhagwad.4281:

kitten es me off when I’ve won a fair fight and the other person decides to bail instead of accepting their fate.

“pro” ele’s life…..

DiogoSilva.7089:

Archaon.6245:

You mean being broken and having an unfair advantage over every other class (Including thieves who are supposed to be the best roamers, and they still can’t get a running away ele) it’s now called playstyle?

Being able to run and heal back, yes, it is part of the playstyle, either you accept it or not. And about roaming, elementalists won’t be that great as roamers anymore once RTL’s cooldown gets doubled.

Ok all clear now, you guys actually think that resetting fights and being able to refull on demand it’s ok…no reason to discuss any further i guess…

kostbabis.8791:

@Archaon..
Disengage skills have many classes in different weaponsets..stop acting that everyone else just dies all the time.
Also i dont know if you ahve been getting your kitten repeatedly handed to you by eles all this time but you are in heavy denial if you think that every ele player is bad and is carried over by their class.I know handling defeat is bad and you need to pass the fault somewhere else but you need to grow out of this ..

Please make a list of classes/tpvp specs who can disengage, refull their hp bar and go back in 3-4 secs while the point they were holding is still neutral.

Waiting….

DiogoSilva.7089:

But that’s the playstyle of those kind of elementalists. They have a “second life” by fulling healing themselves back and resetting the fight. It’s a fun playstyle, and it shouldn’t be removed. The problem is that it is repeatable and too strong. With the nerf to both RTL and mist form, this playstyle is going to be far more restricted. Eles won’t be able to reset a fight twice, and not a easily. It’s a fair nerf, because it keeps part of the playstyle viable and fun, but no longer broken.

Also, glass cannon elementalists desperately need this kind of stuff to survive. It works almost like the necromancer’s death shroud concept of an extra HP bar, which is extremely important to a profession where ALL the builds, and especially ALL the non-bunker builds rely on movement, healing and disruption to compensate for their extremely low amounts of HP and defense.

You mean being broken and having an unfair advantage over every other class (Including thieves who are supposed to be the best roamers, and they still can’t get a running away ele) it’s now called playstyle? I suppose that warrior’s playstile consists in being facerolled by almost everyone atm…and no it’s not like death shroud, death shroud is a SKILL, having the choice to use rtl to troll ppl all day long while refulling on demand it’s just a broken mechanic as everyone already know..(Except maybe some eles…obviously)

Volrath.1473:

Mug dealing dmg? = Fine no prob.
Mug dealing dmg + self healing? = Bad.

Seriously?!

Problem is that thieves are meant to deal burst dmg, and noone gives a crap about a stupid 2k self healing for a class that dies with a sneeze, all you need is dmg and putting all that dmg out in a short time…so mug nerf it’s stupid, they’re taking away dmg (Almost the only thing thief is made for) for a stupid and totally worthless 2k heal that won’t save you from nothing, what’s the point of 2k heal if a glass cannon’s autoattack deals like 1k+ to a glass thief?

Mrbig.8019:

Archaon.6245:

MaXi.3642:

they want to tone down thiefs burst and increase his survivability… you have got 2k heal for that crit ability for one skill, thats solid, be happy they didnt only nerf it like they did with ele

2k heal on a class running 90% glass cannon with no armor, 13k hp, no protection buffs, and no heals outside 6 (And they all sux at healing too)

…for sure 2k every 45 secs for a class that can go down in like 2 secs flat if focused for just a moment would bring so much survivability…yeah…sure…we’re not talking about eles here, thieves don’t have 2k+++ heals all over their skillbar (+ dodges and stuff) + protection+vigor+regen+everything else and a crapton of stunbreakers and when all of this it’s not enough they can still go invulnerable….you have your 6, after that you are dead or you must go stealth…and if you go stealth ppl just start putting aoes here and there…and you’re dead anyway.

But hey, everything will be fine. Now steal heals for 2 k !!!

New bunker thief meta, with its OP 2k heal every 45 secs.

Thief midpoint king motherkitteners!!

lol…but not so much…

DiogoSilva.7089:

Archaon.6245:

40 secs cd imo is not the best option, i would just make rtl castable on target only…

I have a feeling that people who usually suggest RTL to be targettable don’t play an elementalist (much), and aren’t aware of the fun and tactical factor behind RTL. Making it targettable would take the charm out of it. 40s is much better exactly because you can still disengage with it. You’re paying for more diversity and, in my opinion, it’s much funnier a versatile skill that must be wisely used, than an one-dimensional skill that is always used and spammed for the same reason.

Maybe it’s because disengaging on demand is one of the main things that make eles the “free to play cookie cutter” atm…if you lost you just die like other classes not just “Oh my gowd thay’re kiking my kitten oh well just rtl away, heal up and come back in 3 secs…point is still neutral and i can retry as many times as i want”

Sorry…no, if you’re bad you die…if you picked up the wrong fight you die, if they backupped good you die….like evryone else..

Oh and before starting to say that thief can disengage like eles take a look at how much a thief can heal up in 3 secs and how he can defend a point without going stealth (SInce stealth = lost point)…if a thief disengages he’s not coming back in 3 secs flat..he needs to get out of combat to get a decent amount of life…and for sure he can’t go back right after he disengaged, if he’s poisoned or something he would probably already have an hard time trying not to die until he’s out of combat…

MarkedOne.1309:

Archaon.6245:

In short words…now eles have to put some effort on staying alive not just rotate skills while facerolling ppl…good eles will still be good imo…everyone else is just going to die badly…as it should be and how already is with other classes in tpvp.

That is true. I know some people who could not play any other class and knowing that, they chose an ele as their main for its ability to faceroll. Thats just sick.

Old story…i actually know lots of ppl who suddenly become “pro” after they rerolled to ele…funny thing is that many of them look like good players with ele but outside it they completely suck, even with their main classes….guess why….

Caffynated.5713:

Pray tell, what does ride the lightning have to do with the power of 4 stun breakers that remove one or more conditions and make it nearly impossible to pin down the ele with CC for burst damage?

Nothing but it actually gives eles the option to disengage from fights and heal up on demand like no other class can do, if you put their op healing (And boons, and dodges and so on….) + rtl to simply get out from lost fight without being stomped and coming back in seconds full hp this makes rtl one (Not the only one for sure) of the main broken things to fix.

If you’re bad, outnumbered, lagging or whatever you just die like everyone else, running away every time you picked up the wrong fight it’s too easy and this let eles just rush in every teamfight no matter what because they can get away if needed, nerfing rtl must (First of all) not let eles disengage on demand and coming back in no time full life…

40 secs cd imo is not the best option, i would just make rtl castable on target only…you can still roam and rush to fights (And use it normally since you’re facing someone) but then you can’t just get out when you want but i suppose this nerf is better than nothing, they still need to do something about an entire weapon bar of healing/support skills while other classes have pretty much nothing outside utilities (Someone just have the #6 aka mesmer or thief) and a couple of other things…we’ll see…as usual, when it’s ready..

Lupanic.6502:

Archaon.6245:

Super cheese nomore? Time to l2p like every other class if they want to stay alive…finally eles won’t run away and heal up no matter how bad they are after this. You failed? You die like everyone else. Welcome to (almost) balanced pvp.

It is hard for the king if he is treated like everyone else.

Time to see who is really good and could be good even after some nerfs and who just rotated skills like a chinese bot while facerolling ppl…good will still be good…bad will die, and this ladies and gentlemens it’s how it should be..

In short words…now eles have to put some effort on staying alive not just rotate skills while facerolling ppl…good eles will still be good imo…everyone else is just going to die badly…as it should be and how already is with other classes in tpvp.

Cruserd.9230:

Hello

I like the idea from anet but I think its too exaggerated.

It’isn’t.

/thread

Super cheese nomore? Time to l2p like every other class if they want to stay alive…finally eles won’t run away and heal up no matter how bad they are after this. You failed? You die like everyone else. Welcome to (almost) balanced pvp.

MaXi.3642:

they want to tone down thiefs burst and increase his survivability… you have got 2k heal for that crit ability for one skill, thats solid, be happy they didnt only nerf it like they did with ele

2k heal on a class running 90% glass cannon with no armor, 13k hp, no protection buffs, and no heals outside 6 (And they all sux at healing too)

…for sure 2k every 45 secs for a class that can go down in like 2 secs flat if focused for just a moment would bring so much survivability…yeah…sure…we’re not talking about eles here, thieves don’t have 2k+++ heals all over their skillbar (+ dodges and stuff) + protection+vigor+regen+everything else and a crapton of stunbreakers and when all of this it’s not enough they can still go invulnerable….you have your 6, after that you are dead or you must go stealth…and if you go stealth ppl just start putting aoes here and there…and you’re dead anyway.

Eliyahu.1467:

A glass cannon mesmer could easily hold a point for >20 seconds even while outnumbered. Blurred Frenzy+Distortion+Dodge+Blurred Frenzy again+Distortion (Recharge shatters at 50% health)+ dodge + Blurred Frenzy….etc. I can see exactly why they wanted to make this change.

Blurred Frenzy+Distortion+Dodge+Blurred Frenzy again+Distortion funny thing is that everything you metioned in this chain except for dodges actually makes you lose the point lol….