Guild Wars 2

DiazKincade.2891:

It is kind of funny when you look at these kinds of threads. They always tend to bring out extremists.

Agreed. Unfortunately a lot of people are looking at this thread as either pro-permadeath or anti-DP entirely.
You also made some good points. Thank you.

Taygus.4571:

Alot of people who play GW2 are here because they don’t want hardcore.

A relatively minor death penalty, like the one that existed in Guild Wars, is not hardcore. It existed in both Normal mode and Hard mode. Nor was it game breaking.

Large difference is that Guild Wars was strictly instanced with its DP. However GW2 has both Open World and instanced content. It would be interesting to see if and how they would implement a similar DP into a game such as this one.

I understand that whenever ANYONE makes a suggestion on these forums that could even partially be described as increasing difficulty in this game, people tend to rage down on them like they’re nothing but evil people that want others to suffer. I’m afraid it isn’t true. I want everyone to play the game and have fun doing it. I REALLY do.

However this game is “easy mode” as is. It is not even close to being hardcore. An example of how easy it is to play in this game. I had a guildmate just the other night that was playing an Xbox game and another game on his laptop with his folks, all while “playing” GW2. Personally I don’t know how he does it… but the fact that he can… it says a lot about GW2.

Why are we so eager for gaining loot the fastest and easiest way possible, all the time? In the end, what is the point? If there is so little to be proud of…

Rin.1046:

But, if you can find a way to successfully monitor how much a player participates in content, you could easily implement a positive reinforcement system. The hardest part is finding a way to monitor participation (successful healing, support, control, etc, not just damage). I’m sure it can be done, it’s just a matter of whther the developers can/will.

Very good point.

I always do love when I’m running more support, reviving players, healing those in need, removing conditions, etc etc – but didn’t pump in enough damage so therefore didn’t get enough “credit”.

Rin.1046:

Positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative reinforcement.

Yes and no.

Positive reinforcement > Negative Reinforcement TRUE
+R and -R > Positive reinforcement alone TRUE

If you’re going to pull the operant conditioning card, you may as well acknowledge all of it. Training systems that rely strictly on +R alone tend to have their own negatives. An example in dog training: The canine in question does Behavior A and/or Command B because it knows, through consistent +R, that it will be rewarded. Canine subject then decides not to do Command B the next day because it is either not in the mood or Behavior X is more rewarding to the canine at that moment.

Positive Reinforcement alone has flaws. Major flaws.

phys.7689:

I dont really like death penalties, but the deeper content seems to be suffering for its absence.

+1

Agree completely.

Taygus.4571:

Azhure.1857:

To me it makes the game as hard as it should be because of the risk. You’re just calling it “frustrating”, when I call the very same thing “harder” or “more difficult”, because you don’t agree with the topic at hand.

You do not speak for everyone.

You can easily make this game harder for yourself, please go do that.

No kitten, Sherlock. That’s why I said “to me”.

As for just making this game harder for myself. I’m afraid it is harder because I’m surrounded by a large number of people that don’t care to actually play like they give a kitten .

Next time you want to call me out for making it sound like I speak for everyone, you may want to make sure I’m doing just that.

I’m just happy that they released bobbleheads back into the game, as many were asking for, while keeping them away from people like myself that get sick (literally) from them.

So for that, ArenaNet, I thank you.

jokke.6239:

Better than having it rotten in my bank.

That right there is a common sentiment with a large number of ascended materials.

kanarek.8025:

Somebody has better prepare than you so he deserve be better (PvP POV). You might as well say that those who spend time adjusting traits and trying different combination is favored – remove traits.

Agreed.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe the Gifts have equal value, so being able to exchange them for another would mess with high end mat prices.

Its very similar to crafting a Twilight or a Frostfang and then saying you had a change of heart. If you start crafting down one legendary weapon line, you are then committed. Make very sure of what you want before you start.

I suppose they could eventually give them other uses or even make them salvageable. But an even trade for another Gift? I’m not sure about that.

Oh, true that.

Zaxares.5419:

(I’m currently paused at 395 though. Don’t want to discover the 400 recipes since I expect r500 Chef to be out eventually.)

I do believe you get to rediscover past, high end, recipes when the 400-500 crafting is made available. Is that wrong?

Dusty Moon.4382:

Dwarves are dead (turned to stone – meaning no longer dwarves – see EotN in GW1) – only one left alive (Ogden Stonehammer). All the Stone Summit are deakitten

he only one that is amused when people make statements like this?

Its perfectly acceptable in a fantasy MMORPG for dwarves to be turned to stone but it is then impossible for that to change? Interesting.

EDIT: No matter how many times I edit it correctly, its not fixing the error.

It is a possibility that the Monk profession will be reintroduced in Guild Wars 2 – However it will not be the Monk that we remember from Guild Wars.

@Adry, the OP.

Did you have to start another thread like this? Was THIS not good enough or do you just like being in the limelight when creating new threads?

I like the OP’s idea. I just don’t see ArenaNet doing it as it would take away from their gemshop. They would even be in the negative with how many people would want refunds.

ofLegends.9853:

Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.

My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?

Funny, I thought I did.

Many people are using “greater death penalties” or “perma” to describe how “insane” a DP idea is to themselves and anyone reading this thread. When not everyone on this thread is crying out for harsh measures. Its a nice argument tactic but it doesn’t fly with me.

If there is a penalty, consequence for dying, people will actually start to think before they act. As everyone should already be doing in combat – but many are not – because of the lack of risk. To me that makes a game not only more enjoyable, but also utilizes more of the core combat mechanics that we are supposed to be using. But we aren’t.

To me it makes the game as hard as it should be because of the risk. You’re just calling it “frustrating”, when I call the very same thing “harder” or “more difficult”, because you don’t agree with the topic at hand.

Good ideas, Orpheal.

ofLegends.9853:

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.

Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.

Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.

Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?

There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.

Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.

Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.

As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.

Right there with you, Seabreeze.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It’s not a penalty. It is a failure condition.

Heh. Cute.

A “failure condition” that could be removed as well, if it were implemented like it was in GW1.

Erus Keb.8379:

You’re claiming there is no death penalty. Sounds like you’re saying that the time it costs you/you group isn’t a penalty.

Yes, I’m saying there is no death penalty.
Yes, I’m saying that the “time sink” to run back isn’t a penalty.

A few people have tried comparing it to jumping puzzles on this thread. That they’re already difficult because you fail and have to restart. I’m sorry but that doesn’t fly the same way in combat, in GW2. If it were the same, if it were something you could compare to this topic, then you would be able to complete a jumping puzzle just by sheer repetition and not by any improvement of skill.

“We died sooo many times but that puzzle caved eventually! Yeah! Was no match for us!”

Learning a puzzle and how to respond to it accordingly… That’s something worth doing.
Attacking an enemy with no thought outside of max DPS, safety in numbers, and repetition. I’m sorry if it offends anyone but that is something I find to be pathetic, as far as game mechanics go.
There is very little in this game that demands a player to pay attention and play as if dying actually meant something, or living for that matter. A relatively small DP may just be the slap in people’s faces that is needed to wake them up.

True, the Charr did evolve and became more varied in appearance.

But how do you change the look of a were-polar bear?

IndigoSundown.5419:

On topic. ANet does not let us vote for everything because it’s never a good idea to give the inmates control over the asylum.

That made me laugh. Thank you.

Nilkemia.8507:

How about….no. Death penalties? Seriously? Armor repair and waypointing back, along with enemies resetting isn’t bad enough?

Yes, some of us are serious. We’re not just pulling your leg.
*Armor repair? What repair? It’s free now. Also damaged armor has no effect on your character, whatsoever, only broken does. If I’m wrong in that please feel free to correct me.
*Waypointing? Was a pain, cost wise, nearly 2 years ago when the cost was painful. Now its a joke.
*Enemies resetting? Well they don’t reset in a zerg situation (with the exception when it bugs out). If you’re talking about dungeon runs and you all got your kitten handed to you, well then you failed. Play smarter.

Though I do agree that DP wouldn’t be a good fit for PvP. However I think it could fit into PvE/WvW.

Its a fact that many people say they want Kodans to be playable. However I have to ask – how exactly would you make them customizable from one character to the next? They’re all the same….

DarkWasp.7291:

It’s really a question of communities. There are games for those who enjoy the thrill of death penalties and there are games for those who don’t.

Um…

You could use that statement to voice opposition to ANY proposed change in GW2.
So we should never ever voice our likes/dislikes about GW2?
We should never offer suggestions for improvement? For growth?
I’m sorry but I didn’t buy GW2 for it to stay static and unchanging for all eternity.

If you can tell me why a Death Penalty, which is the topic at hand, is entirely bad for GW2 as it is today – That’d be more constructive. Seriously, I’d like to hear from more people on this.

Also don’t think that DP would have to be the severe suggestion that the OP stated.

You’re welcome.

GuzziHero.2467:

Forget any of the antagonist races/factions. That would be Centaurs (plus, how would they swim?),

I imagine the same way bears and canines swim in GW2 now.

Drakent.9605:

putting death penalty on this game will give ppl more reason to run zerker build over anything else so is a bad idea

I don’t understand how you came to this conclusion. It would weed out those that aren’t good with their combat/profession mechanics from those that are. Most people that wear zerker are not skilled in GW2 combat. This would make it so, for the sake of surviving, more people would turn to other armor stats. Or so I believe.

The -15% penalty, per death, isn’t “harsh” or “severe” in my book. Its not taking anything from your inventory, its not resetting you in experience gained, and its not game breaking. It also can be countered afterwards by gaining more experience.

Katai.6240:

Death penalties tend to impact games like this rather negatively. It creates an environment where people are much more careful, as well as make people much more hostile towards one another. Here are some things I noticed in games that have moderate to severe death penalties.

• People don’t try content until level cap with full equipment. If a dungeon is marked at level 20, people still won’t do it until they reach level cap. This is because death penalty slows them down on the way to the cap (either with an exp or gold penalty). Most dungeons and new areas will be avoided by the general population until a guide is posted. New areas won’t be visited until the player is overleveled for that area’s level rating (won’t go into a level 20 zone until you’re level 30).
• Difficult content will be ignored. Even with good rewards, people will avoid the hard content. Boss Blitz causes a lot of deaths, for instance. People would avoid this event completely if there was a harsh death penalty, and people will always rely on the safest way to earn rewards.
• Experimentation of builds will not happen. People want to use safe builds to keep themselves from dying. While sub-optimal/personalized builds are uncommon now, a death penalty will render them extinct.
• People will blame deaths on party members. We already have a lot of toxicity in Dungeons and Fractals parties. Harsh death penalties will only magnify this problem, as toxic players will blame and verbally abuse others for their deaths.

I would vote no on harsh death penalties. I don’t see any reason to stifle a person’s sense of adventure with the sense of fear. Why would you stop people from conquering the Temple of Lyssa with the threat of loss exp or gold. Why would anyone do a jumping puzzle if they’ll lose gold/exp if they happen to die?

Removing anything from your inventory, gold or otherwise, or possibly lowering a character’s level is way too harsh in my opinion. I would still support a minor death penalty, like the one we saw in GW1, that increases the more you die (unless you were to get rid of the penalty before dying again).

A death penalty may sound bad to many people, I understand that, but the game mechanic we have now allows players to literally throw themselves at enemies with reckless abandon – with no consequence if they die. It is why, whether we like it or not, DPS heavy builds are the meta. Just pump as much damage into the enemy as you can, as fast as you can, without any sense of caution.

Not everyone is asking for “Permadeath and level resets”.

Death Penalty (DP) is an effect that decreases a character’s maximum health and energy by 1-60%. It is acquired by dying and can be reduced by gaining experience, countered by Morale Boosts, or removed by consumables. – Guild Wars wiki

A -15% penalty for every death. Either don’t die (preferred) OR gain experience to remove it. Consumables may be too easy in GW2, versus what it was in GW1, as we just have SO MANY of them. However if we made it to where 1 nourishment removed 1% of penalty, perhaps that would be a decent gold sink? It would even raise the prices of all those cheap foods on the market.

Fenrir.3609:

… harsh death penalties would make zero sense.

Exactly right. I wouldn’t be asking for anything extreme or harsh here.

Naevius.3185:

Death penalties, if you boil it down, are just time sinks.

That is your stance?

Guild Wars 2 is a time sink. Every game is a time sink.

Fafnir.5124:

Naevius.3185:

Again, the consequences of failure are unrelated to the difficulty of the problem.

Would a jumping puzzle get harder if we charged you 1 gold for every fall? No.

Your palms might sweat more, but that is a different issue.

and if there was 5 gold at the end wouldn’t that make you try harder?

True and true.

But to have people admit to not caring whether they die or not because it doesn’t matter, oh and by the way people do admit to this, and just return into the fight without a care…. It just adds to the half-aware, spam 1 fests that we have now. Why? Because they don’t have to care about dying. They don’t have to care about dodging, reviving, listening to people, etc etc. Why? Because there is no consequence and it gets things done.

Risk vs. Reward.

I would find it far more rewarding to play in a game that actually had a penalty for stupidity, instead of one that fosters it.

Naevius.3185:

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

I think your logic is flawed.

The threat of consequence for a risky action is a great motivator. For some people the threat alone would make it harder for them, because they’d take measures to avoid it (as they should). While others would find it more difficult if they did indeed die in the game and it had some form of penalty (granted being reset is far too extreme).

Currently in GW2…

Player: 2+2=4
ArenaNet: Good job! You’re doing great.

Another player: 2+2=22
ArenaNet: Good job! You’re also doing great.

Omar Aschi Popp.7496:

As weird as it sounds, I was kind of mad at the update to remove cost for armor repairs.

Don’t think its weird, Omar, as I felt the same way. It really took the only penalty for dying out of the game. Even though is wasn’t much of one to begin with at least there was that.

I whole-heartedly agree with the fact that death is meaningless in this game and carries no consequence if you should die. However resetting people to lvl 1 is so far in the extreme that it would never be considered. Why? I’ll just give one example atm – You’re in a fight and disconnect, then return to find your character reverted to level 1.

The old GW1 Death Penalty would be nice if applied here in GW2 however. It gave a -15% penalty to all stats and damage, if I remember correctly, every time you died. Maxing out at -60%.

emikochan.8504:

I don’t think anet ever claimed this game was hardcore. tl;dr you’re in the wrong game if you want that.

Most of us players are happy with the fun gameplay and content.

Does it matter what ArenaNet has or hasn’t “claimed” what this game would be or currently is? They’ve already gone back on what they’ve said in the past. Their word means next to nothing now.

Mesket.5728:

Is not players hating zerk but its a repressed hate to the game for such flaw in their design. Content could also help and be less carebear with zerk players. Currently the game is easy as hell with a party of full zerks.

+1

I don’t hate “zerkers”. Its the game design itself that I take issue with, not the people that have fallen into it with little choice.

nolij.4327:

Uruz Six.6594:

nolij.4327:

$15 month for VIP access = unlimited potential for gold, limited only by your dedication to ACTUALLY PLAYING the game content, which last time i checked, is the purpose of a video game. to actually play it. and you know, get rewarded for A C T U A L L Y P L A Y I N G I T.

‘A C T U A L L Y P L A Y I N G I T’ = no-lifers and bots pressing 1 repeatedly at the same mobs for twenty hours a day.

yes, that is the definition of an MMORPG. i think you were trying to make a witty retort to my idea, but in an ironic and hilarious twist, you’ve just fully supported it instead

Just…

…….wow.

I don’t think we paid for the right to vote when we bought the game.

penelopehannibal.8947:

To those who have quit the game:

Just go. Don’t hang around the forums expecting everyone else to be sorry for you leaving, bringing it up every two topics saying “This is the reason I left” etc – If you’ve left, good for you. Do you want a medal or something?

Please let the rest of us enjoy the game.

GW2 Forums =/= Guild Wars 2 the game

Nobody is forcing you to be here on the forums or to click on threads labeled ‘To Those Who Have Quit This Game’. Honestly what did you expect?

People are allowed to voice their thoughts here and if you don’t like that, then don’t read these forums.

I would rather have them open up the rest of Tyria to us, personally, as it would mean so much more than polishing the very little that we have access to now. Don’t get me wrong, I miss HM too, but it was something that was introduced near the end of GW1. One could hope for better.

You are so heavily exaggerating that it can’t even be used as a comparison. You could have done better.

As far as nourishment goes and the line where some people choose to use it and others don’t. It makes little difference. We could easily make the same argument about traits, could we not? That some choose to pick more down one line and not another. Hell, I even caught myself playing an alt for a month after the 4/15 patch without remembering to retrait her. And guess what? I didn’t notice that much of a difference.

Tengu. Centaur.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, Foundry wound up being where most runs I was on with friends . . . kinda got killed. (Room three.)

Ah yes. Good times. Good times, indeed. smiles

No. I love the downed mechanic in this game.

It could be worse, you know? Someone in a downed state could see a rabbit – kill it – then rally off of that. Could be much worse.

XApocalypse.8739:

In a sense the new system is “ok” but what about us with alts that have already beat the game multiple times and have already explored everything and just want to make alts to take to wvw and or dungeons? I think if someone is starting out it’s fine, but forcing us to go through the whole game again and backtrack wasting hours just trying to get a handful of traits is not fun at all it feels like a chore, the system was fine before where you just paid a small amount of gold and that’s it you could play your character, but now you have to spend hours upon hours just to be able to actually use your character in end game content. I feel like the old system should be reimplemented, the prices for the traits are around 40g and a lot of skill points now which only used to cost around 6g which is nuts! Please change this Anet i have two alts just sitting there.

As frustrating as it may be, the gold sink does make sense – As we’re in desperate need of more gold sinks. :/