Guild Wars 2

RabbitUp.8294:

BrooksP.4318:

matrix seishin.5312:

It’s like if I bought Half Life 2, and then bought HL2 Episode 1 and it had HL2 attached to it.

The Orange Box originally released with HL2 attached to it, even though it was actually the release method of HL2E2. So your comparison is spot on, just not how you hoped.

Except that they didn’t remove HL2 because you already owned it.

The keys were combined, so having 2 copies was pointless. In the same way that getting a single key for HoT means you can either apply to current or create a new.

Astralporing.1957:

If Anet is offering the core game at a deficit, (because offering it for free means not just forfeiting the potential income, but also suffering some costs – of the account maintenance and support at least) they will have to balance that deficit somehow. They have two sources for it – either by increasing revenues from gemshop (though if they could do that, they’d do it long ago), or by moving some part of that cost into HoT expansion price. In both cases the cost is ultimately extracted from all players, both veterans and new ones.

…which means, that veteran players are meant to pay in part for the “free” core game for newcomers, while getting absolutely nothing for it.

Pretty sure their support and maintenance is unified, so it is actually more cost effective to shift your people into supporting current, instead of legacy. So just having a single version, HoT. would simplify the process. They are banking in the idea that simplifying the entry will make up for any potential loss by attracting more players. Also the surge in gem store items recently, and the hype around removal of others could have boosted any reserve they needed.

The only cost that players are supplementing by buying the expansion, is actually those vets who don’t upgrade. Since they are adding in some HoT content for those users.

It’s not the amount of skills you have, but how you use them that matters…

Astralporing.1957:

The Kraken.2347:

The price for HOT stand alone ONLY is $50, that is the price of the expansion….

Do you really, honestly believe, that the core game included in the bundle costs nothing and noone is paying for it at all?

That would imply it still has an actual cost, it also depends on who you believe is eating the cost, if its players or Anet. It is more believable that as a company it is worth eating the potential profit to promote new players, ensure that all new players are “up to speed” with new content, and be able to streamline their distribution, instead of keeping what is in a sense legacy content separate.

So people might be upset, but some rationality and business sense would tell you that Anet isn’t out to get you. They may not have handled things great, and their PR has been terrible, but that they are trying to subsidize a expansion with a 4 year old version of a game via players is a stretch.

Torgan DeBaku.9534:

matrix seishin.5312:

(…) To keep old players they should offer them just a HoT upgrade for a lower price. That way future player will buy the new GW2:HoT directly for 50$ and old players will extend GW2 to GW2:HoT for 30$ for example.

Agreed 100%.

The big question now is: why the frack did ANet think it was a good idea to NOT offer such a package? Stupidity? Greediness? Ivory tower syndrome? Whatever it was it was dumb as hell.

It is their new business model. They are charging 50$ flat for HoT because they believe going forward that $50 for a ~2 year cycle of updates is a fair value. While at the same time reducing gem store output and (maybe) expanding LS via free HoT updates.

matrix seishin.5312:

It’s like if I bought Half Life 2, and then bought HL2 Episode 1 and it had HL2 attached to it.

The Orange Box originally released with HL2 attached to it, even though it was actually the release method of HL2E2. So your comparison is spot on, just not how you hoped.

BloodyPanda.6789:

“Gw2 Core Included” Huh.. so where is my copy of that “Gw2 Core Included”? It seems like I wont to getting somethings that was supposedly included in my purchase because i have bought it previously. The clarification be like this “Gw2 Core Included and if you have bought this before you will still pay the same amount and the included will be excluded out because your previously supporting the game”

HoT is becoming the core game, which even if you don’t upgrade you still get the HoT/Gw2 Core from your previous purchase. Since they are adding in HoT elements into the non-upgraded version ergo the version vets have, no longer exists. As stated the “GW2 Core” is simply stating there is no pre-requirement to buy HoT. The version of GW2 Core that new players get is not the same as the one we have, there are elements that we got that they won’t. Not to mention all future content released(outside of cosmetics and fluff gem items) to either new or old players will only be available through HoT Accounts.

In short both new and old are getting HoT Core which is a non paid upgrade to all accounts regardless of upgrading(which vets will get sooner than new players can buy), then the actual HoT Expansion, which will be updated throughout the lifespan of this expansion cycle.

Its interesting how people feel Anet owes them something for playing their game. While usually is a nice gesture towards the playerbase, demanding it is about as bad as them not giving one.

Silicato.4603:

rapthorne, i see your defense about this as: they are allowed to try to give us an unfair deal, cause we had a great time with the last deal they made with us.

I completely disagree. I paid for GW2 3 years ago, i got what i paid for, and i enjoyed. This time it is not the same deal at all: They want me to pay for a bundle and i wont receive that bundle, just a part of it.

It isn’t a bundle it is the sale for HoT. The “Gw2 Core Included” clarification was ironically to avoid confusion on if they needed to buy the base separately. Which they can’t because HoT is the base. Games devalue overtime, with vanilla being down to 10$/sale their next step is to roll it into a single package.

New players who bought with the intent of upgrading, do have a legitimate argument. Primarily for bait and switch.

phys.7689:

BrooksP.4318:

Its expanding the current game ergo expansion.

you are not able to expand the game without buying the full product, ergo not an expansion.

Some aspects of HoT are added in on non upgraded accounts. Such as WvW map, specializations, some new items(i think old legendary crafting), and possibly more.

There will be no vanilla, only HoT and HoT-Lite.. Those who don’t upgrade will have some aspects of HoT added in.

Its expanding the current game ergo expansion.

xbutcherx.3861:

I just can’t believe they took more than 3 years to come up with an expansion like this one, so little content. Other games normally takes what? 6-8 months? and in top of all this I still don’t see anything about precursors.

Being expansion based was not their original business model for GW2. However due to player outcry over LS2 and wanting an Xpac, they switched.

It appears they are switching to a rolling expansion cycle. They release HoT, do content updates through that cycle, then release another expansion and continue on. Using a more limited gem store to supplement income.

CureForLiving.5360:

lolitsage.2185:

I didn’t realise the Discussion forum became a blogspot

Apparently everyone is… entitled ( :P ) to share their opinions.

Which is fine, but they could at least consolidate.

Hopefully they will do the right thing and allow people who created a account AFTER the HoT announcement was released will be credited the cost towards HoT.

E: And by HoT announcement, I mean the announcement that they are actually going to release a expansion. Currently it looks like bait and switch.

IndigoSundown.5419:

BrooksP.4318:

Not to mention paying for the expansion is prepaying future content releases during the HoT cycle.

ANet dropping gem store confirmed.

Oh, wait. No, it looks like we’ll still have a gem store going forward. Did you really think that the initial box price funded the development of the game for ~3 years? Why then think that HoT income will fund the game going forward?

Gem store is fluff and cosmetics not content.

Pomdepin.7068:

I agree with you. But you also have not to forget all of those ‘in the middle’. What about people who bought the game like 2 weeks ago, or during the previous sale ? “Only a sith deals in absolutes.”

What isn’t fair is what Anet did with the FAQ page. They tried to make people think they would need the core game to play the expansion to make them buy, and then just modified it for pre-orders. Even if it might make them more money, this is more like a trick. A good seller is someone who’s honest with his clients, and who’s taking care of them. Well, they didn’t this time…

Concerning the pricing, I think it is more or less fair, but honestly, they could have integrated the char slot in the basic version. They knew everyone would like to play the new profession, and would like another slot. So they’re just putting it to the 75 bucks version to make people buy it instead of the basic one, and also justify it with other junk items… I wouldn’t hesitate if the basic version had a char slot, and by thinking of the best value for money, I thought about the Ultimate. But I won’t finally buy any of them cause 100$ is definitely too much. I’m really not used to buying games at more than 30$.

The 2 things you brought up I agree with completely.

Anet needs to subsidize the cost for those who bought the game AFTER HoT was announced. Which they briefly mentioned on reddit but haven’t clarified.

The extra character slot would be nice and a minor thanks for upgrading, but isn’t much of a deal breaker for me personally(I maybe the minority that has no plans to make a Rev after release). What I would like to see is a rough roadmap on content development post HoT, to see if the initial cost is worth the expected post release content. Or just wait till it drops.

Off-Topic, but has anyone been noticing the forums running VERY slowly today. Not sure if it’s just me or Anet.

Linken.6345:

THen they could never sell future living world for gems anymore since people prebuy it with expansion.

They seem to be moving away from the LS model, since it didn’t do well. This is what lead to them doing a expansion. However they could justify it as additional and still add in content outside of LS and charge for LS. However I have the feeling they are breaking away from paid LS.

1: No, you will be buying HoT which is the core game now. If you own the game you will upgrading that account to HoT. If you don’t own it already then you only need to buy HoT and not GW2 vanilla(which shouldn’t exist after release).

2:You will get a key to add to your account.

3. See #1. HoT is the core game now and the value is based off of that. The addition of “GW2 included” is to avoid confusion with other MMOs and Xpacs.

4. It will be an update to the existing, so just a large update but probably no need to reinstall.

Not to mention paying for the expansion is prepaying future content releases during the HoT cycle.

A few things that people are ignoring in regards to expansion, pricing, vets vs. newbies.

The game is shifting from Vanilla to HoT. Meaning future “free” content will be released to HoT users only. So while the initial release of HoT might seem lack luster, you are prepaying for content that will be release during the HoT phase. This should be expected when people wanted a expansion based B2P. Content is dragged out over a cycle not really at initial release.

Vanilla GW2 is no more for new players, at least without buying HoT. This is because the game is suppose to shift along with expansions. This is also why the core game was added in for free, because IT IS the core game now.

Vets got their value from vanilla through updates, events, and head start for HoT content. Somethings that new players won’t get ever or is a pain in comparison.

Which is what has confused me about the whole backlash over the vets vs new. Or did people believe their $50 that they spent 3 years ago still holds the same value? Or that you got NOTHING from it over the years.

Last but not least, Anet is a business, not always the best one but they still need to make money. With how many limitations players seem to try and force on them, it’s surprising they’ve lasted this long.

Flame on, call me a white knight, but really the outcry is almost to the point of being just sad. People always want something for nothing.

There will be no base game after HoT.. Only HoT and those who haven’t upgraded yet.

The game is evolving from vanilla GW2 to GW2 HoT, after HoT I don’t believe vanilla will be available to purchase anymore as it will be included.

So if you already own GW2 you are upgrading to HoT, if you are new you are getting HoT. The cost and value of vanilla is non existent anymore.

A single line post on reddit doesn’t actually state what they are going to do. So while it is good they are aware of it, I will withhold judgement until they give details.

Also to clarify, I bought the game at release, so this has no real effect on me personally. But it still seems shady depending on how they resolve it.

Broom.2561:

(And incidentally: I personally DO prefer games with a subscription and regular free updates. GW/2 is/was my one exception)

Then you would understand how the price vs value is inflated due to lack of sub, p2w, gear/content grind to compensate.

Galen Grey.4709:

They’re already doing that.

Link because I see nothing on the announcement or in the FAQ. If true then there is no issue.

The current outcry is a perception of value, whereas this is more about deceptive business practices.

This is the only reasonable “controversy” I see in regards to the new expansion. That being that when they started releasing information about HoT it was implied that it the base game would be separate. So those who bought Gw2 AFTER they announced HoT should get reduced cost or a off setting bonus.

Scandi.5693:

Everquest and Everquest 2 have always done the same, buy an expansion and get previous expansions and core game included. It has helped keep those games going for 16 years. Anet is not doing anything wrong here, this move will just bring in more players and keep this game going strong, as the practice as done for the eq franchise. What you paid for the core game years ago was well worth it with all the free updates we have had anyway. Be happy and enjoy the upcoming content (which would be better with bunny ears-release them please)

^ This.

So you’re upset and your logic is, go to a game that does the exact same thing, and probably worse. Brilliant!

The price is expected from a B2P model. However I don’t disagree that there should be some consideration towards existing players.

While I’m still going to wait to see what all HoT has to see if it’s completely worth the entry price or not, but something as small as a extra character slot, bank expansions, etc.

While it would make a good gold sink, it would also cause the gold to gem price to balloon.

With or without the core game, they still would have sold it for 49.99. The pricing is really not a surprise.

Gibson.4036:

BrooksP.4318:

It has always been where it is now. GW2 is just a mix of what is wrong with MMOs and what is right. Depending on perspective.

I guess your mileage may vary.

At launch, I found GW2 to have fixed a lot of the things I hated about MMORPGs. Some of those fixes were in embryo stage, and could have been glorious if they had matured over time with further development, but they were there.

Mine does, as I said its based on perspective. GW2 is the epitome of instant gratification, lack of risk vs reward, and the everything is endgame which means there is no endgame mentality.

I do still enjoy GW2 to some degree, but I’m not blind to the fact that Anet just took what made WoW+current MMOs popular as well as hated and created a jack of all trades, master of none.

One thing I think Anet completely missed the mark on, which doesn’t really apply to the right and wrong outlook, is not utilizing the open world PVE and dynamic events to create a more fluid game environment, aka a real “Living World”.

Gibson.4036:

Yes. The last three years have been a journey from “the MMORPG for people who hate MMORPGs” to “the MMORPG not quite as bad as other MMORPGs”.

It has always been where it is now. GW2 is just a mix of what is wrong with MMOs and what is right. Depending on perspective.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Asc. may not be a treadmill, but Gibson is right. This is ANet sticking a finger in the eye of anyone who bought the game because the pre-launch info gave no indication of a steep acquisition curve for BiS — and who’s been hanging on. The, “It’s only 5%.” is now doubled to, “It’s only 10%.” and I can see no reason to change the gap other than to make the stuff more desirable — and closer to mandatory.

Why does this, in a roundabout way, remind me of “incentivizing” PvP and WvW via the latest iteration of dailies? ANet cannot keep up with the demand for new content, so they try to get more mileage out of the old stuff.

While the first part is true, it is a moot point. Many games promise many things and have to either risk change or fall to stagnation after time goes on. What Anet has done however is limit that change to make it available but not dictate the game.

The 2nd part might show the flaws in GW2 original design as well as why MMOs do the carrot on a stick method. Devs cannot create enough content fast enough to keep players interested. This is why they do grinds or even make gear treadmills, it can suck at times from a player’s perspective, but it does keep people playing. If there was no grind, no carrot, and no restrictions then it will always seem as like the game is in a “content drought”.

Satenia.9025:

Clever marketing aside, the result is grinding levels and gear. Not so different from those other MMO’s after all…

There is a lot of stuff that is not so different from other MMOs, they just water it down, make it optional, and call it something else. Ascended and (New)Ascended is no different.

stof.9341:

It IS a threadmill. I was happy with my exotic set. Now there is a new gear tier that is 10% better that was added in a patch.

I was happy in my rares, remove exotics.

Sealreth.1425:

Disable the difference between acended/exotic stat in WvW, and ONLY make it have a difference in PvE, The acc-bound bonus should be enough for wvw

Why stop there, just normalize WvW like sPVP.

GW2 is a 7 step staircase, 6 steps in armor, not a gear treadmill nor does this change make it one.

A gear treadmill refers to consistently adding in gear that is more powerful and negates previous gear. This is usually forced due to the fact that content was balanced around the new gear.

So until Anet starts balancing content around Ascended and/or also continually adds in new better gear then it is not a treadmill. It is just top tier.

Good, the cost vs reward in regards to Ascended vs. Exotic was terrible. The idea of gear normalization was terrible idea anyways, not to mention always existed in the first place.

In regards to “it’s a gear treadmill” is false, the release regularity of more powerful gear boils down to Legendary Weapons and Ascended. For a game that is 4 years old that’s not a treadmill that’s a walker.

So unless Anet removes/normalizes Masterwork, Rare, Exotic, etc. Then there is only the tiers we have now, no treadmill.

They should however complete the set and add legendary armor and be done with it. They can either do the same +buff/changeable stats, or just do a really good skin(not the crap ascended that looks like a filler) and make the stats changeable.

Basandra Skye.4031:

It IS 100% impossible when Anet has specifically stated that upon character creation, your character’s race, profession, and storyline choices are hardcoded values to your character’s data. For those that dont get what that means, it means they cannot and will not attempt something that can utterly kitten your character beyond recognition. You know, on the level of “sorry guys, apparently this service has a bug that corrupts characters to an irretrievable state no different than deletion” kittened.

No one was referring to ingame reasons for why it was impossible, because all of that is easily fixed. What makes it impossible, is everything above on the backend of such a service. For starters, it’s going to be a massive undertaking to make a hardcoded value into something that can be altered. Especially because they need to make sure nothing inadvertently kittens it up somewhere else in the code. Imagine if TF items permanently altered your character’s race instead of being temporary gimmicks?

Frankly, anything involving the alteration of race or profession would for all intents and purposes require the involvement of the character’s deletion and replacement.

As I stated in a later post, it is really dependent on how it is coded. However even things that are hardcoded can be worked around or even changed, so it isn’t 100% impossible. What matters is the residual effects of the changes and the difficulty vs reward. Though it seems odd to me that it would be hardcoded in the first place tbh, but thats a differant story.

Personally I don’t think race should be changeable, but saying that allowing the ability to do so is impossible is false. It may not be worth the effort and potential fallout, but impossible, no.

You live and learn.

Yeah wish they would add back in the vendor, or at least allow blade shards to be broken back down into sprockets so at least they are tradeable. After completing the Tempered Back myself recently, I see no point in keeping them atm.

Reviving becomes more of a habit then being reward based. You even have to tell people NOT to revive on certain fights. Though tbh I usually only revive downed players and not dead ones, SW afkers have gotten me jaded.

Riku.4821:

From a designer standpoint it would be really hard to code something to re-code the game to change something that is set into the game like stone.
I hope that makes sense, I tried to keep it simple but was hard to explain.

Yes and no, its all dependant on how race is coded into GW2, so it differs really depending on the games architecture and flagging. It can be very simple or a royal pita.
Without knowing that its really just speculation on the difficulty.

Nothing is really 0% in regards to appeasing a player base. Especially something that isn’t a core aspect. As Skyshroud mentioned, the only real way to do it, is to reset the storyline and also you would have to unequip all cultural items. Outside of that there is not much binding a character to a specific race.

Would explain the no mounts rule.

No longer in context of thread.

Tbh, they all look relatively the same as most other skins, just with a different color/texture scheme.

sirsquishy.8531:

Except that GW2 is NOT an expansion based game. Its SUPPOSED to be a bi-monthly release based game (per countless PR releases via Anet in countless interviews). If they are changing the model, it would be nice to know.

I would guess them releasing a expansion is how they are letting you know. I doubt they will come out and say “We were wrong, Valve couldn’t do it with HL2, we were silly to think we could”. But they won’t, and really I’m unsure if they even have things completely planned out for post HoT release.

However that doesn’t change the fact that no matter what they do at this point, people will be upset. If they scale back development on HoT to release interim content then HoT will be delayed and people will get upset, or they don’t release content stick to their target release timeframe, and deal with flood of nasty comments about content drought. They are probably content with the latter since GW2 being a B2P is designed to be a more casual friendly approach, so they don’t care much if you go off and play something else knowing that there is a good chance you will come back.

Vayne.8563:

Except that in a wow expansion the level cap goes up, and that would put you at a disadvantage in WoW PvP if I’m not mistaken.

WoW PVP was balanced on level ranges, which the level cap pre-expansion was the pvp cap after expansion. So if the pre-expansion cap was 70, then 70 would be the cap of that tier and anyone above that would be in a different ladder. Other then alts or new races you wouldn’t be at a disadvantage. Which oddly enough depending on how they balanced the specializations in GW2 it maybe worse than WoW asfar as a disadvantage.

But in regards to it being mandatory, technically no.

People will rationalize on if the random chance of a “good” green is worth the loss in time, and probably still skip.

Skipping should be allowed but also full clears should also be rewarded. So for example having more/rare loot at bosses for clearing the trash before it. Or clearing a trash group has a chance of spawning a rare mob, one that drops unique stuff.

Or just restrict it. Its interesting to me that it seems like those who push for the easiest/quickest route, are the same ones complaining about lack of challenging content. Like Anet can fart out content whenever they please.

Braxton.3926:

How does GW2 afford to stay online like this if its free to play?

They can’t, which is why they are rushing an expansion out. Hopefully when they switch their model, they can get the content timing better.

The expansions were never required in WoW.

And as for price, using LS2 pricing as a comparison, it should cost around what was said earlier, $40-$60.