Guild Wars 2

Photoloss.4817:

…several valid points…

I’m with you on the scientific rigor, and the value of math when calculating build potential. But scientific rigor doesn’t preclude anecdotal evidence, as your own use of it shows. Not just in regards to The Pledge, but the 1-hour montage as well, which would be, unavoidably, a collection of anecdotal evidence.

Your standard of evidence seems unreasonably high, especially since it appears to be applied in only one direction. We’ve just had a big patch applied in a context where most people agree that (1) the game is difficult to balance across all classes, game modes, and levels within those modes , (2) the devs don’t really have a firm handle on how their game is played across all of those modes, and (3) they lack a test environment in which to evaluate the implications of their changes before they’re released into production (bugs aside).

While I agree a claim that something’s broken, unbalanced, etc. requires more evidence than one person saying so, or a single screen cap, the same standard should be required for claims to the contrary. That the game is balanced, especially after this patch, isn’t the default position here, and this sub-forum is full of evidence being discounted along the lines of predictable confirmation biases.

Requiring someone to painstakingly do a bunch of math, convince other people to test things out, collect hours of video and countless screenshots, etc. just to point out something’s wrong (or isn’t) without being completely dismissed is unreasonable.

Hey, no problem. Btw, if you’re still doing zerg stuff then I assume pvt is still the optimal gear to run, and I don’t think the preference for trooper runes with shouts and h/s+wh has changed at all. So your gear should still be fine.

I don’t think anyone has shout heals like warriors did, except guardians whose shout heal skill applies to allies as well.

Also, fyi, the nerfs to warhorn were the number of allies affected was reduced from 10 to 5 and it no longer converts conditions when traited (just removes them now). Banners are also less now in that there’s no radius increase or CD reduction when traited anymore.

I don’t spend any time in zergs, but Guardians strike me as much better support than warriors. They also have completely broken burning (at least while roaming), so watch for that. Came across a duo of them yesterday that applied 11k+ burns per tick in a matter of a few seconds (burns stack intensity instead of duration now).

lighter, you know a forum isn’t really the appropriate place to jot down your ideas unless you’re bring them up for discussion, right? It’s not a notepad.

There’s a good chance a mod will shut down the thread if they realize what you’re doing. May want to copy paste these somewhere else before they do too.

For those of you discounting anecdotal evidence, what other evidence do you think anyone could bring to bear on any question of balance? It’s all that’s available to any of us.

I might switch in berserker’s stance in there if the blind fields were getting to be too much, but between brawlers, CI, the food, and a traited healing signet, condi I suspect condi management is pretty sufficient as is.

Still, zerk stance is one of the ones in the running for the slot currently occupied by Signet of Strength. In principle, I still put SoS or Shake it Off in front, but testing in the real world may put me squarely in the zerk stance camp. It’s definitely one of my go-to utilities.

Working in some condi gear is an interesting suggestion, probably to take advantage of the hybrid nature of the swords to milk max dps out of them. I’d have to do the math, but my big concern with doing that is condi damage would be completely wasted on the hammer.

I actually ran a s+s/gs build for a while that had largely zerk gear and then a little condi gear, using the might stacking from the greatsword to boost both power and condi damage, but the results weren’t as good as I’d hoped. I think if I’d had sinister in there instead of rabid it might have been better, but I don’t think I could achieve sufficient condi and direct damage while also having points in vitality or toughness. Something would have to give, I think.

Going full zerk can certainly be intimidating when you aren’t used to it, but I’d definitely recommend moving away from the pvt toward a more damage oriented gear set in this brave new wvw.

As you can see from this thread here, the patch has really diminished the value of toughness, especially in roaming and small group wvw, and you’re only delaying the inevitable death rather than protecting against it by investing too much in toughness.

Warhorn got a couple of nefs, whereas shield got buffed. Gs remains a very strong weapon choice for what you want to do, as is hammer, and anything paired with shield. So I recommend dropping the warhorn in favour of any of those.

If you’re really not comfortable pushing yourself into zerk territory (or close to it), you could always see if a condi spec works for you as it allows you to get away with a bit more vitality or toughness and still be effective.

Craft someone weapons and armor for yourself (or have someone else do it), and see how it suits you. I recommend going carrion over rabid, and working in as much sinister as you can stomach, but it’s up to you. You could also mix in some rabid for the toughness if you want, or go full dire. I’d say go with whatever’s cheapest until you know if condis for you.

You’ll want to go dual swords and longbow and Krait Runes are probably your best bet. I’ve heard defense-tactics-discipline is better than working arms in there, but I haven’t tested it myself. Arms has some tasty bleed/condi benefits in it for the swords, so try a few setups to see what works.

If you want to stick power though, consider moving away from the pvt toward more zerk. Alternatively, I posted a build in another thread that uses valk gear that would give you vitality while maintaining really high damage, but do note that I haven’t tested it out yet.

Shouts have been scaled way back and I definitely wouldn’t recommend them, especially for roaming. You used to get about 1700 per shout with your gear, but now you’ll only get about 1000. And, like I said, warhorn has also been nerfed a bit as has longbow, in a weird way.

Good luck.

mPascoal.4258:

How about sPvP?
Am I the only one trying something beside GS/Hammer?

I don’t imagine it’s as useful as gs/hammer, but it might be ok. The hammer’s just a great tool to lock down more than one person, whereas the axe is largely a single target burst weapon and other classes are better single target bursters.

So as long as you don’t need optimal, you should still have some success.

There have been a few posts on this very subject. Works fine for roaming in wvw. Perfectly viable.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

tl;dr: Expecting your profession to provide possibility to win 1 v X is bad to me.

This. Especially when he already qualified the opponents as competent.

Curunen.8729:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

EvilSardine.9635:

Mesmers are broken as hell in my opinion and are the easiest class to play at the moment.

The massive burst they can pull off from stealth (pretty often too) is absurd. They can disengage a fight whenever they want as well.

There’s a certain setup I use which is straight up unkillable yet does massive damage. I gave this build to my wife who just leveled her mesmer to 80 and was just constantly winning any fight she got into.

I stopped running mesmer because it makes me a lazy player. It basically took the fun out of the game because there’s zero risk of dying.

I’ve also lost a lot of my reason to play mesmer atm due to how easy it is. It’s just too faceroll right now.

So why don’t the both of you play a version of the build without the stuff they added?

At least one poster put up a build that is functionally equivalent to pre-patch. You can go and have your no-faceroll mesmer, and it will still be a mesmer.

Why don’t you?

I agree – it’s still possible to handicap yourself to be “balanced” if preferred.

It’s impressive when people can include that in an argument that the class is balanced while maintaining a straight face, amirite?

I can’t recall if Alpha thinks the class is balanced, but I know the person who came up with the “pre-patch” build does, more or less.

@Shala
The main reason is power’s always a good investment, even when it’s not the best investment (and often it is the best). Every damage multiplier connects with power, and there are more multipliers after the patch than there was before.

On the other side, there are few multipliers that interact with toughness and probably none that help defense (e.g. Armored Attack interacts, but results in more power not defense). This makes it so the rate of diminishing returns through greater investment in toughness is higher than it is with power.

You basically need enough health and toughness to survive a surprise burst, and then the rest is mitigation to kill or be killed.

Consequently, denying entire hits from landing, or percentage based defense (like protection) are much better than toughness.

Operator.6523:

When you hit that flurry -> HB combo hnnng

It’s not as good as it was, unfortunately. Warriors are practically immune to it and people are usually packing lots of condi clear.

But it can be sweet when it sticks and someone has to stand there helpless as you 100b them down.

Roxanne.6140:

Something has changed I don’t know what but warrior feels a little weaker in pvp now. If rampage is nerfed then I’ll say this is a class that really takes alot of skill and luck to play

It’s stronger dps-wise, but it’s relatively weaker than it was due to a combination of greater buffs to some other classes and nerfs to the sustain provided by shout builds.

Re-posting a build I linked in another thread to get feedback and possibly recruit others to try it out.

First, the build.

In principle, this looks pretty good to me for a wide range of wvw. I don’t have enough experience in pvp to know how useful it would be there, but am interested in the opinions of people who do.

General highlights:

• Permanent fury from the runes and SoR brings crit to just under 50%, and Signet Mastery could push that to about 70% at max stacks. Hence Valk over Zerk
• The high power/crit makes all of hammer, FT, and Rip extremely strong
• Riposte combined with Shield Mastery provides fantastic ranged defense (2.25s on a 12s CD) that also stacks might
• Sword mobility is as good as gs now, so you’re not that kiteable and have escape
• Valk gear gives 26k health
• Signet Mastery plus Sigil of Strength makes you unblockable much of the time
• Signet of Might could easily be swapped out to whatever’s most appropriate (probably “Shake It Off!” for the low cd stun break/condi clear)
• Sigils are obviously swappable to whatever is preferred
• This build has excellent control between the hammer and Flurry
• You’ll never be short on adrenaline

Blind spam is probably the biggest threat, especially with the big hits being so slow. If that was a common problem, I guess Berserker Stance could be slotted in the space currently filled by Signet of Strength for some relief to that.

The build could be run using Zerk gear and achieve similar results (for testing purposes). It’s just the points invested in precision would be better invested in something like vitality.

It has less burst than a zerk signet h/gs, but is less dependent on locking someone down to deliver its damage, which might even out the overall dps between them. It obviously has better ranged defense than h/gs, even more than shield builds in fact, and the health pool is nice. Denial of blocks is also very nice.

Thoughts?

I’ve been running this comp for the last couple of weeks and it’s very effective. I use shield master and last stand, and I’ve also switched balanced stance for frenzy. Full zerk, and very effective.

@Lahm
Agreed, MH sword is good outside of a condi build. In fact, I regularly use it in power builds in wvw, but the overall dps outside of Final Thrust is the lowest of all weapons when specced to power.

Your build gave me an idea for a slightly different build that I may experiment with for a while. I don’t have any Valk gear, so my stress tests will have to be in zerk.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAscSjMdQdH24BGeAnIGmCKMBigC4OiAYk1go2nAA-TVSHwADOEAEOCAi1H4X9HgK/orEk1+DAeAACOBABAQAuZb2m3MgbezbezbezSBwkyI-w

• Permanent fury from the runes and SoR already brings crit just under 50%, and Signet Mastery could push that to about 70% at max stacks. Hence Valk over Zerk
• Signet of Might could easily be swapped out to whatever’s most appropriate
• The high power/crit makes all of hammer, FT, and Rip extremely strong
• Riposte combined with Shield Mastery provides fantastic ranged defense (2.25s on a 12s CD) that also stacks might
• Sword mobility is as good as gs now, so you’re not that kiteable and have escape
• Valk gear gives 26k health
• Signet Mastery plus Sigil of Strength makes you unblockable much of the time
• Sigils are obviously swappable to whatever is preferred
• This build has excellent control between the hammer and Flurry
• You’ll never be short on adrenaline

EDIT: Actually, I’m going to move this to a new thread for comment.

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I’m not personally looking at other classes with envy, just agreeing with the overall message of the thread that our primary defenses have diminished a bit in this brave new world.

I also think torch or dagger is likely. Setting stuff on fire, blind, and reveal are likely if it’s torch, I think. Dagger I’m not sure… can’t think of any utility it could bring that we don’t already have.

FlashGamer.4017:

We have:

-The highest Armor available
-The highest healthpool available
-2x Endure Pain (once as a utility, once as a trait)
-Several blocks on weaponsets (Mace, Shield, Sword)

Do we really need more Damage Reduction?

The health pool helps a lot, but the game has changed a fair bit to the point that each class’ mitigation options should be looked at.

For example, the math above more or less shows armor difference between heavies and other classes isn’t worth much.

All but one block ends with a single melee attack, and as noted there’s been some proliferation of unblockable skills. The stances have long CD, are short lived, and apply to one damage type.

I don’t think warrior is “in trouble” per se, but its staying power in a fight has been lessened due to the diminished value of its mitigation options.

Blinds, evades, stun breaking teleports, aegis, protection, and particularly stealth are the much more valuable damage mitigators, after dodge.

Operator.6523:

1. If I get Frenzy should I take Burst Mastery instead of Heightened Focus?
2. Can you tell me more about your offhand sword build? Is it a condi build?
3. I like the intelligence sigil idea on the Axe -> straight to Eviscerate, but I’m not so sure on the sword because when I swap I’ll probably leap -> auto chain for the immobilize, kinda wasting it. A guaranteed Final Thrust crit would be awesome but for some reason leap never hits lol. Of course you can move with try to final thrust without any CC but kitten its hard.
4. Do you have any experience with hydromancy? I feel it might be a good choice.
5. I guess shield mastery is necessary purely for the CD reduction. Without shield 5 up, you feel naked and you feel like you desperately need to swap to GS lol. I probably will go with your energy over bloodlust sigil because without shield CD your defenses are pretty shaky if you cant swap to GS and WW out or something.

1. Up to you. Burst Mastery certainly works with an axe, but I run both Frenzy and HF. Quickness is just that good, tbh… much better than +7% on burst plus 1 stage of adren

2. It was a hybrid that relied on might stacking on the gs and swap to boost power damage on the gs and then power+condi on the swords. It was an odd build that worked alright, but I preferred being burstier. One nice aspect is you could choose the damage type that worked best against your opponent. Anyway, I tried it for a week after patch. It could have been straight power though. Dual swords can do full power, and Signet Mastery can give you a huge Precision buff, allowing you to run something like Valkyrie and still crit.

3. I run Intelligence on my sword. 1v1, you have to bait out the dodges or use Shield 4 to land FT, or you walk through them a bit so their body conceals the animation (it’ll still hit). IN a group fight, it’s easy, just get close. One thing about FT is it cleaves, so you can crit for big numbers on a few people in a group fight if they’re bunched. I usually save my Flurry to set up 100b if I think the person can’t clear it. If they can, I’ll always use Arcing Slice.

4. I used to use Hydromancy on my gs a couple years back. It’s good, but I don’t find it necessary… especially now that I’ve got so much quickness.

5. So, shield 5 for defense but remember it’s stacking might for you too every time it blocks. The reduction on shield 4 is also great. As for Energy Sigil, I find it to be that good, really. Also, Reckless Dodge is nuts… I’ve averaging 2.5-4.2k on a dodge roll (into opponents), but some people have reported as much as 8k+ under ideal circumstances. Energy Sigil helps with that.

Without doing any math to support it, and just general feedback/answers:

• Consider switching out Endure Pain for Frenzy (love it while it lasts)
• If you need hustle and a buggy knockdown, consider dropping another stance for Bull’s Charge. You’ll have to see which brings the most success
• If you take BC, consider traiting Peak Performance and try slotting Rampage for a bit to see if you like it. If you don’t, go back to SoR
• Try running Last Stand over CI. The vigor’s nice if you don’t need the condi/adren management benefits from CI. I find I don’t need CI, personally
• Go with sharpening stones over oil
• Consider adding Energy sigil if you can
• Intelligence on your axe (or sword) is pretty nice too

What you have is fine as is, but it’s worth experimenting with the above to see which suits your style best. Personally, I find dodges more valuable than ever, so I’m a junkie for the things that keep those on tap, especially when you can milk major damage from Reckless Dodge.

A 90s CD on the Balanced Stance component of Last Stand is just… well, it should be reduced by a lot. It’s a drag, but the dodges help you not care so much.

As for sword vs axe….

In wvw roaming, I definitely prefer sword for the mobility. Immobilize isn’t a great cc anymore, what with all the condi sheds and pretty much every warrior being able to break it with a mobility skill, but it’s nice when it lands. 10-12k Final Thrusts are really nice.

In duels or small groups, the axe outclasses the sword dps by a lot. An Eviscerate is a game changer, and the Axe auto is very good pressure as long as you’re not getting kited.

Versus gs/h, I actually prefer the shield post patch. The mitigation from Shield 5 is really important, and a traited shield is fantastic. A hammer warrior has the build advantage over the sword in a 1v1, but I’m not so sure about the axe. Outside a 1v1 fight, you have much more staying power with the shield. Plus, if you see the very obvious hammer -> 100b combo coming, just hunker down with shield 5 and let him power you up with might before you stun and eviscerate him.

I’ve gone str/arms/disc before, but not with the shield (offhand sword). Signet Mastery’s very good, but the Defense line is better, especially if you’re running a shield.

Not too many dodges for the sake of a dodge, but between energy sigil and pretty good vigor uptime, I’d be putting out a lot of blinds. Put a few melee warriors in a fight and I’d expect melee combat to be crimped pretty hard, even without thieves and mesmers around.

Why do you think 2s of protection on a dodge would be too op? And, for that matter, more op than aoe blind? I’d find the blind more op, to be honest.

As for the multiple uses for a weapon skill, other examples include mace 2, sword 5, engi shield 4, etc. Basically, allowing us more combat options within the existing constraints of the combat system.

While I’d love to have an aoe blind on Reckless Dodge, it cuts both ways. Having a warrior or two on each side of a fight, along with Blinding Dissipation Mesmers and Blinding Powder Thieves, would probably kill melee combat.

Short duration protection or aegis would be nice though (maybe 2-3s). Protection would probably be better for everything outside of duels though. Main reason? Melee has become much more dangerous than it was, with everyone spamming whatever they have, especially ground targeted skills whenever a melee cluster forms. At least, that’s been my experience.

I still fully support Fast Hands made baseline on the grounds that pretty much all warriors run it anyway, and so making it baseline should unlock more build diversity by making it so all warriors don’t feel compelled to trait Discipline, without leading to any appreciable power creep. There may be some more skilled play in there somewhere, I’m not sure.

Broadly speaking, if we really wanted more skilled play, we’d probably need something good for that (maybe still incoming?) F2, more elaborate weapon combo possibilities, and/or much better sustain given the diminished value of armor these days.

The latter is more to keep us in a fight to execute more skilled play. I’m not sure how to inject skill into that sustain short of injecting it into weapon skills or revamping our utilities somewhat.

EDIT: More skills that function like Impale/Rip may be a way to get more mileage and skill play out of our weapon skills. Not the specific effects of that skill, but more the idea that using a skill opens up the option to have that skill do something else. It could facilitate weapons having more than one purpose, and it could easily lead to more skillful play.

WhiteOil.1836:

anet needs to give wars and gaurds their toughness back, seems they forget to give us that stat after they took stats from trait lines, zerk war prepatch had almost 2.7k armor and now it barely get out of 2.1k armor

why play a heavy armor zerk when you can play a light armor class that has the same toughness and more options

Warriors weren’t affected by this any more than any other class. The stats you used to get from traits (like toughness) got channeled into your power, precision and ferocity when your gear stats were bumped.

So if you want to get your toughness back, or whatever, you just have to trade your recently buffed power, precision and/or ferocity to get it. Try throwing some knights into your mix.

If you’re playing pvp, just switch your amulet to whatever gets you closest to where you want to be.

@apharma
Why wouldn’t you fix a balance problem in one aspect of the game, especially when you could do it without negatively impacting other aspects? Leaving it as is on that argument is nonsensical.

@denis
Your post also states the class was forgiving for a beginner not running shatter, and your Wvw argument in favor of leaving PU with the buff increase was that it was needed for survival. I’m sorry, but your own posts present a “godlike” (your word) Wvw class prepatch, and everyone, yourself included, have acknowledged that mesmer has gotten even stronger relative to other classes with the patch.

@Denis
I’m sorry I seem to have really got you agitated there. I genuinely thought you’d been trolling me when I looked at your post history.

The fact is, your post doesn’t just say mesmer is easy for beginners, and neither do your other posts around the same time. You clearly said you found mesmers extremely powerful in Wvw prepatch, which is in direct contradiction to your Wvw-based arguments for keeping the PU stealth buff.

And feel free to replicate the post of mine you’re referring to. But you misunderstood it the first time you did that and that didn’t appear to have changed.

But, yeah, sorry you’re so agitated. It wasn’t my intent, and I’m actually pretty confused by your reaction.

denis.9487:

You can make some people happy some of the time but you can’t make all people happy all of the time. I suppose you should just create your own game at this point and deal with stealth as you see fit. Thing is no one knows in this arguement, we are in a transition period no one knows what’s next come hot. Instead of playing the game with new traits to keep us interested and have a little taste of what’s to come some people choose to qq over certain aspects of the game. No matter how you slice and dice Mesmer pre patch was limited in all 3 game modes now in this influx environment we have a purpose. Who is to say this won’t change come hot.

Lol, I’m pretty sure you’re a troll now. Not just for your “que sera sera” comment, but because I just figured I’d go through your post history to see if you had the same point of view as you seem to have now. What did I find on the first page I looked at?

From https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Is-Mesmer-really-a-good-choice-for-beginners/page/2….

denis.9487:

denis.9487:

Mesmer rocks. Just start small. Ignore the people that say shatter or die. Ease into the class with forgiving specs such as condition pu move to power pu. Then gradually change over pieces to become a bursty spec in pvp/wvw. Mesmer is a boss class. Become feared on your wvw home world!!

I stand by this. Mesmer is wicked in wvw. What other class can 100 to 0? Learning the class and what you can do is the fun part. I started the same way in first post. Now running 44006 gs/sword torch. The joke I suppose is on your spiked corpse clicking a way point.

Lmao. I even looked around through some of your other posts in case you were making a joke. Nope, the general theme was that mesmer was plenty powerful in wvw, but suffered in other areas. Now? “OMG, mesmer needed escape because it was a free bag!”. Lol.

apharma.3741:

Thing is, you can’t, as it’s the main balancing mode. This is what the game is balanced around. I also believe people said extra stealth is of less benefit due to point capture mechanics, not that it doesn’t matter. You’re whole argument is effectively saying, we should ignore how it’s balanced in all other game modes but WvW which by it’s very nature is really unbalanced not just in game mode but in stat inflation and general opponent differences.

No, I’ve not made any claims about pvp… I’ve repeated claims made by some of you that were used as counter arguments to rolling back the buff, that’s it. Only now are we starting to see you guys talking about a value to PU in pvp… until now, the point has been “nobody takes PU in pvp” and “the stealth bonus doesn’t do anything because it keeps you from capping point”.

But sure, let’s stick with the new line, especially if it’s more accurate. My earlier proposal to Necrotize wouldn’t affect pvp much at all. It would be better than PU was prepatch, it would retain the tactical stealth that’s relevant in pvp while removing the troll aspects that are a problem in wvw.

Why wouldn’t that make everyone happy?

Purecura.1795:

Choppy.4183:

I’m also not auto dismissing PvP elements. More than one of you guys made the case that the PU stealth buff provides little benefit there, yourself included iirc. If you want to walk back on that point, go ahead. But you’re the one taking PvP out of consideration by saying PU doesn’t matter there, not me.

Ummmmm excuse me sir, I happen to main PU condi since I began my PvP career in gw2 2 years ago. Pretty bold of you to state that no one truly uses PU.

I’m going to have to assume you’re addressing that to apharma and the other mesmers who’ve made that claim and not me, given you quoted me saying exactly that.

@Necrotize
No, the counter arguments have been devoid of evidence and riddled with shoddy reasoning, like saying PU should be left alone because it doesn’t matter in pvp, as some have argued… repeatedly.

Look, the first step to solving a problem is recognizing there is one. PU is a problem, and a really easy one to solve. Even some of the people who’ve been against doing anything about PU have conceded it’s largely a troll trait or, as I’ve shown through my own experience, a way to cover for low skill.

Rolling back a buff that, afaik, NOBODY asked for and most mesmers apparently don’t use shouldn’t even be remotely controversial.

As for your preferred solution to PU, a +2s buff along with all of those other changes would do basically nothing to the stealth available to a PU mesmer (difference of 2s if they don’t take Veil, no difference if they do), while boosting the stealth of every non-PU mesmer running MI. That’s a stealth power creep, buddy, including your proposal to change The Pledge, which is just getting in front of an obvious bug fix and inserting a buff.

Lol, that’s some cynical stuff right there.

I have a counter proposal… run a +2s PU stealth buff on a trial basis (goes back to +1s if it’s too much), leaving all stealth bases alone except Veil, which goes to 4s. BUT, mesmer stealth skills cease being stackable. Using a stealth skill while in stealth simply resets the timer to the new skill’s duration.

You get to keep your ability to escape via stealth (and blink), but not as easily as you can now while using PU. No skill that you used to enter stealth will be off CD before your stealth ends, and your decision to hold your stealth skills for an escape pretty much comes at the cost of using those skills during the fight. Not unlike the stances used by pre-patch Nike warriors.

@apharma
I replied to your comment already and even gave an indication of when I’d be looking to get off the PU crutch. You also suggested it’d be better to try it out after the golem week was over. You do know what day it is today, right?

I’m also not sure how to factor in the increased dps I’ll be facing post patch. Open to ideas if you have them. Of course, I could forgo the whole experiment by pointing out that none of you stalwart defenders of PU have actually admitted to using it… In fact, I think you’ve all said that you don’t. Ptetty easy to conclude from that alone that the buff wasn’t particularly needed. Same with the general lack of demand for a stealth boost to PU pre-patch. I could also just ask all the people I know who main members whether they felt they were just free bags in Wvw. I’m fairly confident they’ll laugh at the idea.

I’m also not auto dismissing PvP elements. More than one of you guys made the case that the PU stealth buff provides little benefit there, yourself included iirc. If you want to walk back on that point, go ahead. But you’re the one taking PvP out of consideration by saying PU doesn’t matter there, not me.

@Necrotize
I was responding to Denis’ example. If you don’t think his example had merit because you’ve somehow divined the “truth” about what’s important in this game and what isn’t, take it up with him. At least try to keep up or just ignore the thread. It’s not hard, you know.

denis.9487:

Dodged what? The trait works. You yourself used it and it let you survive while your own party died and that leads to a nerf?

As has been explained to you repeatedly, that’s not it’s only use, but you remain fixated on this bit to the exclusion of others. Do you know what a strawman argument is?

But, sure, let’s just look at that one thing for now. Do you think it’s legitimate for a player to consistently survive party wipes without breaking a sweat? How about a party of PU mesmers? What condition would lead then to wipe at all? You’ve referred to warriors with their “OP sustain while roaming” and insane mobility… do you even believe they had this ability before the patch crimped their mobility? Is it that you always wished you could do on your mesmer what mesmers complain about thieves?

And is that the only value, in your opinion? Mesmers need a way to survive party wipes?

denis.9487:

The last sentence speaks volumes. Because some people have an issue it needs to be nerfed? L2p l2 count higher than 5. Do not roam alone and bring a friend because after all this is guild wars not solo roam wars.

See how you dodged again? You can’t identify any value that you’ll admit to, and your best shot at suggesting counterplay shows you don’t even understand how stealth play works.

Normally I wouldn’t ask for someone to defend why a change shouldn’t be made, but some of you are effectively saying where the stealth buff is a problem doesn’t matter, and anywhere that does matter the stealth bonus is a non-factor.

Neither of those is an argument to keep the buff. The closest you get to it is the first part, and that amounts to “it’s not worth looking at” not “the buff should stay as is”.

So you’re either digging in over something you think doesn’t matter or you think the buff does matter and you haven’t been straight about why it should be left alone.

If there’s no value to the buff, then you should have no objections to reducing it in the face of people pointing out where it is a problem.

Lol, I didn’t ignore it, it was just irrelevant to the point.

Here’s a whacky idea for you… why don’t you mount a case in defense of keeping the PU stealth buff where it is? With most mesmers apparently opting not to take the trait, and no mesmers calling for a stealth buff prepatch, what’s the reason for the dogged defense again?

apharma.3741:

Choppy, stop with this thieves get 3s of stealth and have less than mesmers BS. It shows you either have no grasp on stealth and the mechanic or you need to learn to thief.

Thieves can stack stealth to stay in stealth permanently and choose when to engage. They also have a short bow for extreme gap opening if the fight goes sour and can then stealth engage after. Many are training stealth on steal as well so that’s a teleport, damage, heal, stealth into backstabbing and heartseeker.

This is without mentioning you’re mainly talking about WvW and as that other person mentioned in another thread, use stealth traps if they’re really giving you a problem.

Now, how’s that pre patch mesmer build I linked for you working for you?

Lol, settle down apharma. Denis made a silly argument and I used thieves as a way to expose the ridiculousness of the argument. Stealth traps during a fight is another ridiculous thing to say.

Necrotize.2974:

People(myself included) have outlined a risks to PU in all game modes, you just choose to ignore them and spout some random cross-class comparisons. Just gonna recap them since I’m really getting tired of every other mesmer thread devolving into the same conversation.

In SPvP, stealth prevent point capture as well as point contesting, so PU is not the best choice for point to point rotating(which is what mesmer is great at)….

PvE doesn’t really matter as stealth skills are only used for skips anyway….

WvW. This is where all the problems come up because people keep dragging roaming into this. In Zerg v Zerg, PU probably isn’t the best option….

Only reason I said stealth traps could work in the other thread is because when you’re actually playing the way game developers intended(I.E, not 1v1/small group roaming) it isn’t hard to utilize them. Stealth trap near a gate that’s about to broken down to prevent a zerg from stealthing….

Saying it lacks counterplay, but what you really mean is that you can’t be bothered to actively counter it. Or you’re just talking about small group/1v1 roaming in WvW still.

Lmao, because you and some others continue to make the same bad arguments. For example, every time you say PU stealth isn’t a factor in a an area of play, you think that’s a reason not to nerf PU when, in fact, it means those areas have no bearing on the conversation.

All you’re doing is pointing to the glaringly obvious fact that a problem that exists in one part of the game could be easily fixed without affecting areas of the game where it’s not a problem. In other words, you keep reinforcing my point without recognizing it.

You also keep referring to, “what the developers intended” as though (a) you have any idea what that is, and (b) it even matters. What matters is the current reality of the game, and that reality has PU stealth being unnecessarily disruptive in a mode of play that is relevant in more than 75% of wvw.

If PU doesn’t matter to zergs, and you think stealth traps are only intended for zergs, why would you bring them up? Because your arguments aren’t coherent.

What do you want to be able to do? One shot people? Rifle. Be effective on a point or a threat to more than one person? Longbow.

If you don’t care much about what’s optimal, go with what you like best.

denis.9487:

Your issue is with stealth not pu. Let me say it again Mesmer can stealth burst with or without pu.

If that were true, I’d be saying stealth should be removed from mesmers (and everyone else) altogether, yet I haven’t said that at all.

denis.9487:

Your compairing apples to oranges. Why are you fighting so hard to nerf?

Oh really? And here I thought it was just about the amount of damage that could be delivered to a target and how much you could prevent them delivering to you.

If, as you’d have it, being able to deliver a burst out of 3s of stealth is the same as having 6s to do it, and short lived boons don’t matter, and that the long stealth is really just good for getting away, there’s no real reason to expect hugely different results with thieves than mesmers.

And the reason I want it nerfed is, as I’ve said repeatedly, it lacks counterplay in its current form and completely borks the risk:reward balance.

denis.9487:

I keep avoiding the stealth burst because it can be achieved with or without pu. I don’t know what to tell you except everything from before. You switch threads doesn’t mean anything.

If true, then you wouldn’t be fighting so hard to keep the PU stealth buff.

You also dodged the stealth trait for thieves challenge. Thieves can get a burst off in the 3s provided by C&D or leaping through BP. Therefore, by your argument, giving them a +100% stealth boost and a handful of boons wouldn’t be a problem at all, correct?

denis.9487:

Again boons been there pre patch. Count higher. Don’t duel or duel with rules and don’t solo roam. Since pu Mesmer is usually left till the end of engagements whether you kill or they ran still a victory.

Well, you’ve more or less just conceded there’s no counterplay right there, except you still seem fixed on the notion that a PU mesmer doesn’t actually do anything in a fight, which is ridiculous.

PU condi mesmers will put a lot of condi pressure on the field, and PU shatter will do a very respectable amount of direct damage. Both could bring the ranged interrupt/cc via Mantra of Distraction if they wanted to.

In the sort of fight you’re describing, they wouldn’t even have to extend the stealths. They’d use one, and anyone chasing them would abandon target because nobody’s going to wait around for 6s doing mostly nothing, allowing the PU mesmer to come out of stealth and unload again. If they’ve taken the inspiration line, they’re bringing a bunch of support to their team, and the Mass Invisibility they’ll be packing is a game changer in any small fight.

I’m sorry, but it’s become pretty clear that you don’t really have an argument here. You also don’t appear to have any experience using PU or fighting against it. Several times now you’ve described it as a defensive trait with the chief purpose of helping a mesmer run away. Despite all these posts, you remain unaware of the enormous tactical advantage that stealth brings to a fight.

I suppose you’d be cool with a PU equivalent for thieves too then? I mean, all you’d need to do is count higher and the boons would be short lived. You could leave them till the end of the engagement and, when they ran away, it’d still be a victory.

denis.9487:

The boons are short lived hasn’t changed from pre patch. My suggestion is learn to count higher post patch.

I really get the sense you haven’t fought many mesmers running PU as a non mesmer.

The aegis is what prevents your opponent from getting lucky and hitting you while you’re stealthed, which can occasionally tip them off that you’re there if an air or fire sigil procs.

The length of the stealth matters because it gives you a longer timeframe in which to choose when to end the stealth. With thieves, they usually have a few seconds and they have to get to melee, so you can anticipate that hit with greater accuracy. With mesmers, they don’t really have to close (better for their damage if they do, but not necessary), they don’t need the full amount of time to reposition, and can even extend the stealth without giving a tell, if they want, which is something a thief often can’t do in a fight.

So, again, where’s the counterplay there?

Purecura.1795:

Seems most of those complaining about the Mesmer, do not really make any sense at all. Seems most are upset that we can enter stealth and burst “safely” from stealth. Seems most are reluctant to learn how to counter us, so they complain we are OP, and we need a NERF. I find that highly unfair.

What’s the counter to long mesmer stealths, occasionally combined with aegis? Are you going to suggest stealth traps like someone did in the other thread?

StickerHappy.8052:

Choppy.4183:

I don’t actually understand the problem with the trait. I mean, it’s an instant blind so is strong, but it’s not a field or frequently applied, afaik.

Instant AoE. 12 seconds is not frequent enough for you? on 1 shatter?
Pair this with other blind sources we have? Chaos Armor, Prestige, Ineptitude, CI, etc

Now don’t tell me Blinding Powder is frequent.

Well, that’s just it. In and of itself, I don’t find an aoe instant cast blind on a 12s cd OP because it will get cleared pretty quickly. Its best play is preventing a massive burst (like a thief opener or a warrior eviscerate), which is huge but consistent with blinds anywhere else in the game.

I actually do find Blinding Powder more of a problem when on my dps warrior, which has to land hard hitting, hugely telegraphed hits or die, because it forces me to interrupt a burst and find the edge of the field to resume being a threat. I don’t think BP is overpowered mind you, not with its current initiative cost, but it’s a tougher hurdle for me as a melee player than what BD does. That’s me, anyway.

But what you brought up there was the totality of blinds available to a mesmer. I don’t know mesmer well enough to know how much of a problem it is, but right there that tells me if there’s a problem, it’s not centered around one trait.

Also, if the instant cast means making it dodgeable does nothing, and a 10s ICD does nothing, and a 15s ICD breaks the trait, maybe it’s not the thing to focus on.

EDIT: I’m not looking to make your world more complicated though. You know mesmer better than I do, and if you (and MailMail) think BD’s the thing that’s bringing a lot to the party, I’m not the one to say it’s not. I’m just saying, as someone who mains a class that would be particularly affected by it, an instant cast blind every 12s isn’t what I’d find most frustrating.

I don’t actually understand the problem with the trait. I mean, it’s an instant blind so is strong, but it’s not a field or frequently applied, afaik.

ronpierce.2760:

Obindo.6802:

Nerf Rampage, Buff Warrior

And remove heightened focus*. Then sure, why not.

Spreading around Quickness while leaving it 50% was a bad idea. Sure it had “been nerfed before” as people like to say, but it’s still incredibly strong as a boon… Should have been a 20-25% attack speed boost to essentially be an alternative type of Fury. The way it works now is just silly. (This goes beyond PvP too. This boon is throwing the entire balance of the game out of whack.)

Thanks for letting me rant. Sorry if you love HF.

I love HF and I have it coupled with Frenzy. I’m not sure if it’s OP yet or not… definitely punishes someone if I can catch them in it. I rationalize it to myself by pointing out my chief knockdown can’t hit a dead cat lying in the middle of the road, so the mayhem quickness causes is limited. Still, you might be right.

I think Rangers get quickness too, right? Pretty sure I had a quickened Rapid Shot hitting me yesterday. Anybody else have it?

I may have misunderstood you. In no way was the shatter mesmer at a disadvantage against warriors in a roaming situation, assuming equal skill level. Most roaming warriors had to run melee stance and we’re predicated on stunning you to land a burst. The smart mesmers knew to keep distance as long as a hammer or axe was out (depending on build, all ran gs). That kept the warrior damage pressure down and kept the shatter mes the favourite to win.

Shoutbow is probably an exception…. I didn’t see many warriors roaming with it, even though it was viable for roaming, but I expect it would have had the build advantage. In part because shoutbow was too strong, especially in small groups.

If you stumbled across a zerg warrior who’d lost his way, it’d take you a while to kill him, but you should have won with a shatter mesmer. A killshot warrior could have ended you if you weren’t careful, but ks wasn’t a particularly viable roaming build. Most people only ran it for the lulz, and few did even that.

I can totally see how most thieves would be favoured to win against a prepatch mesmer though. Don’t know about the other classes.

In terms of roaming Condi mesmers, definitely. But more last year or so. The tactic was about the same as it is now… Get the phantasms and chaos shield up, kite around, and out sustain. It was effective too, though much more so now. Shatter mesmer was the most common prepatch roaming mesmer build by far.

Bottom line though, unless mesmers were only effective against roaming warriors (which I’ve never heard before), they weren’t bottom of the class bag farms. Moreover, people aren’t complaining about mesmers because they think they should be easy kills, they’re comparing them to fighting other classes.

Vague Memory.2817:

Mes is still one of the most challenging classes to learn. But good luck.

It really isn’t. How many people who main other classes but have recently switched to mesmer have to say this before it sinks in. Mesmer is super easy to pick up and be effective.

Maybe it has a higher skill ceiling (i.e. has lots of potential to gain power as you master the class), but the skill floor (i.e. what you need to be a viable threat) is about as low as it gets now.

denis.9487:

Pre patch shatter Mesmer was the hardest to play solo roam because we had no sustain. Post patch we still can shatter but now have sustain either with chaos of inspiration. What you see is a threat to your warrior class why you constantly complain. Mesmer is viable burst wise with or without pu. Pre patch we had pu builds hence the nerf added more boons.

So you’re saying the reason mesmers seemed strong pre-patch is because I was mostly running a warrior and they were a hard counter? Could be, I certainly wouldn’t have had a lot of experience playing against them on other classes then.

Still, the people I know who main mesmers certainly weren’t complaining about it, and it wasn’t as though roaming mesmers were in short supply. I saw them about as much as I saw roaming necros, guardians, and probably engineers. That would put them in the middle of the pack as far as roaming went, so presumably they were meeting with at least some success. I don’t expect many people would login to be a bag delivery service.

As for your build, my mesmer skill probably isn’t high enough yet to warrant passing up the PU crutch. I could try it though (after the golem week)… I was thinking about doing it soon anyway. With PU, it’s insanely easy.

Quarktastic.1027:

Oblivion? Try asking a ranger what oblivion feels like, because it’s something no warrior has ever experienced.

While I don’t support the pve buff the OP is asking for, you’re the second person who’s made a comment in the warrior forum recently that basically says, “no buffs for you because ranger is worse”.

Just wanted to say that a buff to warriors has to stand on its own merits and in no way interferes with the buffs that may need to be made to other classes. If rangers need buffs in a bunch of areas, then they should be buffed regardless of anything that happens to warriors. Same goes for other classes.

That being said, if you’re having trouble with rangers, a guy I run with has had tonnes of success running a really durable condi ranger lately, and has even predicted it’ll become the meta. He handily beat the stance warrior I threw at him and beat the shoutbow I threw at him too (it was a longer fight for sure, but he still won). We didn’t have time for me to test other warrior builds against him, but he said he’s been having very good success in wvw roaming/havoc as well. I beat him with a condi mesmer fairly easily though.

I don’t have his build details, I’m afraid, and I don’t play a ranger so probably couldn’t recreate it (I know he had a MH sword for defensive purposes). But know there’s at least one very good ranger build out there that doesn’t require you to play pew pew while standing on a ledge.

Also, iirc, there used to be a very good a+d/sb condi build for rangers… not sure if it still works or not, but it was favoured to beat most warrior builds, except maybe pre-patch shoutbow. So rangers haven’t exactly been in the dumpster.

apharma.3741:

You’re fooling yourself by saying they weren’t free bags pre patch. Everyone except guardian had better mobility than mesmer. The only thing a mesmer could do to escape a bad situation in WvW find a nice place to port up to where the enemy would take longer to get there. If not, they were chased down and murdered with ease and I say that as someone who has chased down and murdered them on all classes and being on the other end of it.

PvP it’s much easier because of point mechanics and the rediculous amount of stuff to LoS behind.

So you weren’t able to win fights as a mesmer pre-patch? I have a hard time believing you had to run from most fights and, not having enough disengage, became a free bag.

That’s not what you’re saying, is it? Shatter mesmers were very effective in wvw pre-patch, and condi mesmers had their hey day too. They were also an integral part of wvw gank squads.

Also, necros. They were much easier to hold down if they needed to escape than mesmers.