Guild Wars 2

Valik Shin.9027:

Burning arrow is just out of place. That one trait can actually make a condi build work but there is nothing else in the trait line to go with it

That’s a very good point…. Moving it to Arms and either buffing it or Blademaster and moving it to the GM slot (so it doesn’t conflict with the other weapon trait and, well, the GM traits in Arms aren’t great anyway), then warrior condi builds would be much more viable.

Juba.8406:

THANK YOU.
From the deep bottom of my heart.

You really transformed my warrior. < Sword/Shield warrior

Haha, still running your Omnislash?

(I’m running the same)

Lol, +1s for both Zefrost and Captain Unusual.

Blaine Tog.8304:

It’s the difficulty involved in crafting Sinister that has be trying to decide between Rampager and Berserker (which I already have). Berzerker > Rampager according to my tests, so unless Condi > Berzerker, I don’t see much point in switching.

Totally agree, and I almost always run full zerk myself.

That being said, one of the advantages of something like a Sinister hybrid over Berserker is your output of two distinct damage types.

I experimented with a hybrid build (didn’t have Sinister), and I found the combo of direct and condi allowed me to down people who were well set up against direct damage (what I normally do) because the condi bypassed their defenses. Similarly, I was able to pressure builds that had good condi removal through my direct damage output.

One nice thing about condi over direct is its “death by a thousand cuts”, meaning it’s harder for an opponent to dodge your big hits because there aren’t many of them, which makes mitigation through dodging less effective than against direct damage.

So even though Berserker may put out better raw dps, there’s something to be said for having diversified damage. Of course, in principle, you’ll be less effective against builds with primarily anti-condi defense than if you used pure zerk.

Gamgee.8612:

You basically trade 40% crit and 3K health to get 500 more toughness. Compared to this zerk build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAseSjMdQZI2FCuhAnIG6BKtNC/wwCgCICwaoH6eA-TVyHABKfEAC4BAox+D6p+TPK/cSJ4AHCAv0HAwJAIAACwNbz28mBQKAW1aB-w

I personally wouldn’t do that trade but it might be better for your playstyle. I usually play in 3-5 man groups taking on higher numbers, and we blast alot of waters and stuff like that so I might be a bit blind to other peoples experiences but I dont think I would do that trade either way.

You have to compare like with like though. He could slot Great Fortitude to close that vitality gap too. Also, his damage output would be higher with his current build due to Forceful Greatsword.

Question for you though. If you’re running in in 3-5 man groups, why the sword over axe or mace (assuming you want to keep the shield)? The axe would give you more damage pressure and the mace would give you a little more defense but much more cc to peel people off of your friends.

Is it for the mobility to run from larger groups?

Spartacus.3192:

lmaogg.7325:

Spartacus.3192:

lmaogg.7325:

bring back the old eviserate plsss

Eviscerate build was just buffed with the new CD reductions and stun increases on shield.

the stun for shield buff already in? didnt read aw

Yes it is as of yesterday

And shorter CD….

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Even with the nerfs yesterday, we ran across a guild of mesmers. An entire guild. Mesmers only counter as far as I know are Rangers with full Beastmaster.

Pack stealth traps. Seriously, when you come across cheese like that, it’s the best possible response.

There’s nothing funnier than watching a pack of mesmers who think they’re stealthed get obliterated by coordinated burst. It’ll push them right off the map if it happens enough to them.

Linky.9178:

OP learn to play. I main thief (and I know mesmer is your main), so quit your crying.

He’s not entirely wrong though.

From a roaming perspective, zerk stance warrior was very solid before the patch. I’ve found the gs and shield (along with stances) help handle most thieves if they make a critical error (providing lots of chances to find the error to exploit), though both ele and mesmer had the upper hand.

Not sure what the nerfs to mesmer and ele will mean relative to the buffs to this general build, but time will tell.

To the OP, I’m on the side of warriors being powerful but not overpowered, personally. As others have said, even the build you posted has some pretty exploitable weaknesses if you’re able to maintain pressure while kiting, particularly (but not only) with some condis.

Looks solid enough, but the actual trade-off appears to be 700 extra toughness in exchange for:

• 170 less power
• 33 percentage points less crit damage

Might be a good trade, but it’s definitely not twice as tanky … especially with shield, dodge, and stances providing most of the defense. The damage would be noticeably less too, given how often both builds will crit.

Could still be a good be a good trade, depending on personal playstyle and context.

Edit: Sorry, I use shield and didn’t think to look if yours did. With a hammer, the extra toughness may indeed be worth it since you lack the block.

Balsco.3682:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Brawl.5178:

the torment on sword may not be all that useful for pve, but i do remember a build a while back using offhand axe and the #5 skill to apply stacks of bleed very quickly. basically a high crit-chance bleed build.

Ah, interesting. Would you need Sinister gear for that or would Rampager suffice?

Neither, use Rabid, that’s the best condition gear set for warriors from a pure condition damage perspective, with runes of the undead.

I disagree regarding rabid. I have a set, and it was the go-to spec (along with undead runes) a couple of years ago when condi warrior was briefly a thing, but the condi pressure (and diversity) of warriors means its damage output pales in comparison to direct damage warriors or more condi-friendly classes. Also, when Krait came along, it became a much better choice than Undead as far as runes goes.

Hybrid’s a much better route for warriors than pure condi. I can’t say I know the optimal gear set, but I doubt it matters for pve. If you can survive on zerk in normal circumstances, I don’t see any reason to think Sinister wouldn’t be the best choice.

Rampager’s less optimal because you don’t need more precision than what Sinister would give you, so you’re trading out Condi damage for no real reason. On the other hand, it’d be easier to acquire.

Can you post your knight’s build?

I threw together two separate builds based on your previous description (all zerk vs knights with some zerk) and ended up with a crit damage difference of about 40 percentage points and about 200 power. Difference in toughness was about 700.

That’s a terrible reason to not use it. When I learned of the issue, I just adjusted my playstyle accordingly. If you pay attention, you know when it procs, and if you have a general sense of the passing of time, you know when it’s available. Or you could just wait till you’re actually stunned before using the stability on your bar.

And now with the lowered CD, you could probably get away with not putting Balanced on your utility bar anyway. So there’s no conflict.

Wasdclick.1764:

Signet of Stamina. Its passive is 50% faster endurance regen, the same as having 100% vigor uptime. Of course, the active is a full condi clear on yourself. But then you’re out of vigor for 45 seconds (36 traited). Warriors have enough access to condi cleanse that the active isn’t needed, so it’s safe to just keep it on your bar for the endurance regen. But… You do lose out on a utility slot that could be used for a banner, shouts, clutch CC, or buffing stances that have a more dramatic effect on the course of battle.

Right! I’d forgotten about the Stamina signet! Thanks for the reply.

dominik.9721:

-none has used /will use GS/X-Shield in serious pvp matches unless maybe eles get nerfed hard enough

I bet you’re wrong on this. I predict gs/x+sh Last Stand stance builds will become much more common. The weakness is obviously sustained condi, but 10s immunity from Berserker Stance plus HS is a lot of breathing room in a non-condi meta.

Hell, depending on what they do with rifle, you might even see that more (I doubt it, but maybe).

Still doesn’t get you there. Traited, it’s 5/8 vigor… you also tend to save that skill as a blast finisher rather than keeping it on CD to max vigor.

Also, if it works like the WH 4 skill, you don’t get the full duration of the buff.

Anyway, didn’t mean to derail. Was only wondering if there was a warrior fun button I wasn’t aware of.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming….

BartHomer.7512:

OKAY A-NET SO WARRIOR (HEAVY ARMOUR CLASS) can HAVE a single skill THAT gives PERMANENTTTTT vigor

Which skill is this? Enquiring warriors want to know!

That’s fantastic! I asked Santa for a decrease to the CD of Last Stand and it came early!

Not gonna lie, that shield buff is even more valuable to me. I’m now officially a spoiled child of Tyria….

Sifu.9745:

Rifle is still a beter ranged option than LB, if you play non condi builds … Power LB i don’t do any dmg. I’m forced to take Rifle over LB for WvW, if i need a ranged weapon.

Actually, full zerk lb is a thing. Zerk gs/lb does very good damage and is aoe to boot. Plus the auto gives two opportunities to proc on crit sigils, traits, etc.

Outside of a single target or potshotting into blobs, I’d take lb over rifle any day.

Apparently the OP and I have very different definitions of “viable”.

Goldenrevolver.4371:

and while were at it why not make it 40sec cd and reduce by half if u hit something…

Or just make it so it can hit something?

Zefrost.3425:

They won’t do it because then 100% of warriors will say, “Why doesn’t weapon swap sigils work with 5s weapon swap? Plz change to work for 5s weapon swap.”

I wouldn’t. Therefore, your argument is false.

Seriously though, practically all warriors already run Fast Hands. So if anyone was going to make that argument, they’d have already made it.

Go ahead and scan through the many pages on this subforum and try to count how many times people have called for 5s sigils (you could probably do it on one hand). Then count how many more warrior mains have told those people it would be way too powerful.

Could just split the might on swap from the burst CD reduction on the last minor. We don’t need to get anything more in the event FH is moved off the bar.

The whole point is to increase build diversity potential, not power creep.

Kraljevo.2801:

I can understand why they are being hesitant, because it’s a really powerful minor trait. Arguably one of the strongest if you think about it. Making it baseline would mean that we also get nerfs in other areas to compensate. (Which I am fine with, just stating a fact.)

What’s the difference in power between a waarior that takes the trait (basically, all of them) and a warrior who’s had it baselined?

The answer is the trait that goes in the spot where FH used to be, and then whatever extra power they can squeeze out through new combinations. It isn’t the power of FH itself.

A baselined FH doesn’t necessarily have to come at a cost. If it results in OP builds, those builds can be adjusted directly without class-wide nerfs.

A full combustive shot procs Berserkers Power as well as a full Arcing Slice. My point above was that a full CS (plus aoe might from blast) and partial Arcing Slice gives you more than vice versa.

You’re not alone. Most people in here seem to feel the same way, and many posts have been devoted to making the case for it.

I gave it a shot after patch. Signet Mastery is a fantastic trait now. With it you can maintain +500 precision, the benefits from active signets on cd (and passive otherwise), plus the oh so delicious unblockable for 6s whenever you hit any target below 50%… with no CD.

If Arms had more going for it, I’d have run it for longer. I was on a power build, but maybe on a hybrid? I dunno. But yeah, signets got some life breathed into them and the build can actually be fun now.

I’ve not done a lot of pve and Nike knows what he’s talking about, but the rotation you describe surprises me. I’d think (at close range), the following would be best:

1. Fan of Flame (lb2)
2. Combustive Shot (lb F1)
3. Arcing Arrow (lb3)
4. swap
5. Arcing Slice (gs F1)
6. Whirlind Attack (gs3)
7. Reckless Dodge into enemies (if not quite in range)
8. Hundred Blades (gs2)
9. swap and repeat

The main thing that surprised me about the rotation you described was using your heal to max adrenaline to use Arcing Slice. It does the same damage regardless of how much adren you have, and opening with a max Combustive Shot instead will give you the advantage of a longer fire field and some might before you use Arcing Slice.

Why don’t you lads fight it out? Use the same amulets and weapon sets, then one runs with FH and the other without and see what happens….

Do it for science!

Caedmon.6798:

Whirl reflecting projectiles Or being put in an evade state would make this skill atleast a bit more viable.Adding a cripple effect or immob even,currently it’s just weak and easy avoidable

A bit?! Aside from the cripple, any of those those things would make the skill ridiculously broken.

Allowing dodges might be alright, but the output combined with reckless dodge would probably be over the top damage-wise.

Reducing the number of hits but increasing the damage per hit would eliminate the retal problem, assuming it’s still a thing after the last damage buff.

nearlight.3064:

Just because something is strong and used in every build, is that enough to mean it should become a free trait?

How would you like an elementalist with a baseline elemental attunement, or a necromancer with a baseline vital persistance?

On second thought, I think I understand now. Is fast hands more similar to elemental attunement or vital persistance? Can you have a functionally good build without it? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain that if something like fast hands was made baseline, traits like the two I mentioned above and others like grenadier on engi would have to receive similar treatment.

That’s true, being strong isn’t a justification for making it baseline.

Do you find warriors to be OP with pretty much every warrior running the trait, no matter the build? Most people don’t.

That leads to the question, “would warriors be UP if they didn’t have FH?”.

Well, if we accept that warriors aren’t OP with the trait, the trait is strong, and there’s been an almost total absence of builds that don’t use FH across all aspects of the game (especially in competitive arenas), then I’d say yes, they probably would be UP without it.

The argument in favour of making FH baseline isn’t to bring more power to warriors. Whatever power it brings to the warrior class, pretty much all warriors already have it… they’ve been balanced to include that reality.

The argument for making FH baseline is about increasing the potential build diversity for the class. Discipline’s a strong line in its own right and hard to pass up, but practically nobody’s going to do it, especially in a competitive arena, as long as FH is there.

To try to steer this back to the topic of this thread, the need for FH to be competitive is what will keep Berserker from having any real presence in pvp (and probably wvw, maybe pve too), imo.

nearlight.3064:

Yeah after reading through the first page I’m not really convinced. Most of the arguments that supported fast hands were, “we should have this baseline becuase its a warrior thing”. And I don’t think that’s a good argument, especially since it doesn’t tie into warrior class mechanics on your own. Its just a way to avoid using autoattacks when things are on cooldown.

Something like Ilusionary Persona on the other hand needed to be baseline because the mesmer class mechanic was unviable weak and inflexible without it. With fast hands, that logic doesn’t make sense.

If you actually cared to know, you would have read more than a page.

Your counter rationale could be similarly applied to any class feature with about the same validity (i.e. not much). “Warriors, eles and guards get by without stealth, so I don’t see why the other classes need it”, “Engineers and eles get by without having an alt weapon set, so I don’t see why the others need it”, etc.

The simplest route to evaluate whether FH should be baseline is to infer it from the following:

Since launch, has there been a meta build that didn’t trait FH?

Yes, one. A dungeon build that camped one weapon to provide max might to the party.

Does pretty much every warrior build in a competitive arena (PvP, Wvw) trait FH, whether meta or not?

Maybe excluding a few outliers, it certainly appears so.

Is there any reason to think it’s not the (excellent) Discipline traitline and not FH specifically that’s capturing builds?

Yes, pre June 24 there were several builds that only went deep enough into Disc to get FH, often at the expense of other good traits on other lines.

Wouldn’t baseline FH make warriors OP?

Not unless you think they’re OP now, because just about every one has been running FH since launch, including Condi, direct damage, tank , and support builds.

As for IP, while I agree it was a good move for mesmers, the fact is there were viable mesmer builds (meta even) that didn’t trait it. Making it baseline opened up a decent instant damage hit, instant cc, and an instant invuln for mesmers, pretty much on demand, assuming the mes wasn’t going to trait it anyway. With FH baselined, pretty much nothing but greater build diversity.

LMAO… for realz?!

Phage.9203:

patience is a virtue bump

Nope.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue

I’ve been using it to great effect in wvw on a full zerk gear setup using a shield since the June 24 patch. It’s not the only build I run, but I’ve used it quite a lot.

Obindo.6802:

It’s 6.5 sec cd I believe now, and after using burst most of the time it’s not followed by instant weapon swap, for example, earthshaker -> cc chain --> swap —> burst. Meaning both bursts will instantly be recharged by the time next weapon swap to respective weapon set is recharged. Seldom times the case is they’re not and that the case also is that it’s instantly needed, very very low significance. Also… 1 bar adrenaline superior value… adren bar doesn’t rly matter much… except maybe +5% dmg (again not much significance as it only applies to certain situations in certain playstyles). For example: gs/hammer, Hammer is cc initiater, the duration means nothing. Arcing slice, dmg is independant from adrenaline; fury is very minor.
Oh! did I mention primal bursts suck?
The only good thing with berserker is the headbutt, 10 sec sunbreak and taunt/with the quickness u get: Imagine doing that on thief in sr

I haven’t seen anything about adjusting the time and the editor still says 5s. Have you done the math yet? It’s a straight numbers calculation, made even easier if you’re willing to assume full adren on CD in either case.

Same if you just want to assume 10 adren in each case, as per your 1 bar burst comment.

Valik Shin.9027:

Kill shot is a perfect example of high risk high reward. Unless traited it isn’t a for sure crit and u have to be very glassy to have get those high damage numbers. Yes it can be powerful but it’s not any worse than a backstab thief if u factor in that u at least have a chance to see the warrior

Is it though? Although I have run it successfully in duels, I’d never run it normally precisely because it’s so easy to counter in small fights. Meanwhile, it’s effortless to land in bigger fights where the damage potential is way higher.

So the result is, more or less, a high risk/low reward weapon overall (dps wise) or low risk/high reward, depending on the context.

Makes it a mostly meh weapon except for the occassional lulz, imo.

Obindo.6802:

Choppy.4183:

Obindo.6802:

All primal bursts are weaker versions… so dumb

That are spammable…..

Not more than currently of any significance.

Their normal cooldown is 5s instead of the usual 8s and it only takes 10 strikes of adrenaline vs the normal 30 to power them up. That’s a 37.5% faster recharge rate, assuming full adren before the CD is up in either case, which is significant. More, if adren isn’t plentiful.

Beyond that, you could trait Smash Brawler to instant recharge the zerk burst.

Honestly, I think the OP is correct. There’s either too much counterplay to killshot (like in a 1v1) or too little (like in a group fight/at range like the OP described).

What’s the sense in having a skill in the game that can one shot people without them having practically any chance of avoiding the hit (unless they’re dueling) on an otherwise underpowered weapon?

How many posts have we seen on this subforum from people complaining the rifle is underpowered, needs buffs, etc.? Seems to me dropping the potential damage down by a fair bit, reducing the channel time and/or adding a status effect, and then improving the other five skills would make the rifle more fun to play and to play against.

It’s really just that movement on skills is tied to channel time. About the only way to fix it is to make any movement based skill immune to slow and quickness, or to undo the change that made them immune to speed buffs/conditions.

I’d loooooove to have swiftness affect the distance travelled on movement skills again and Quickness affect the channel times, but the QQ would make the world stop turning.

Otherwise, I’d rather take the shorter distance but higher chance to land an ES through faster channel times we have now over same distance but unaffected channel time, thank you very much.

Obindo.6802:

All primal bursts are weaker versions… so dumb

That are spammable…..

@JVJD
They said in the Berserker intro stream that Burst Mastery was always supposed to just give 33% adren back on a full burst, and that “there will be no free rides” with respect to the trait and Berserker. So no.

Also, on the world boss point you made above, they’re talking about bosses that a 5-person team would be fighting, like dungeon bosses not world bosses. It’s a disagreement about the relative vulnerability stacking potential of different classes/builds.

Not for dungeons and fractals they aren’t. Might stacking for your party through Phalanx Strength, Forceful Greatsword, and gear is still the order of the day, afaik.

Just what I’ve heard.

It’s alright, but you’ll be pretty vulnerable to bursts… especially ranged condi burst.

I don’t think it’s as solid as the standard stance version, but if you enjoy it more it should perform well enough.

Watch it again and take note of the health of those golems before the shot.

Traits are solid. They did a good job providing options for condi, power, and survivability.

Illuminate the Darkness: Every burn you apply removes blind from the entire game for 15 minutes (duration stacks), in every mode and on every server (except warrior Longbow 4, ofc ).

Fire fields you create Reveal every opponent within 15,000 of you for 3 hours…..

No way. They added the ICD because of Fast Hands, and dropping it would be a substantial power creep.

I’m surprised anyone would find Defense underwhelming, tbh. It’s clearly not indispensable anymore, and that’s a great thing, but it has value beyond CI.

But, yeah, Def is definitely the one to drop on a direct damage oriented, and at least one condi oriented, spec.

TheLastNobody.8319:

The problem is though, I don’t know how’d they add fast hands to baseline as it alters a universal mechanic without the othe classes rioting…

You remind them that every warrior they’ve come across in the last three years has had the exact same weapon swap cooldown…?

Lol, or creates a crater so deep opponents fall toward you in the middle?