Guild Wars 2

Purecura.1795:

This truly displeases me because people are acting as if the class cannot be beaten now, but what I really see, are people whining about how they could kill the class before without thinking twice, but now, they actually have to work hard.

That’s because it’s what you want to see. While Mesmer required some finesse before, it wasn’t the most complicated class to play and was actually more accessible than the gw1 mesmer.

Now it’s insanely easy to play, and a major threat to boot. Not invincible against everything, obviously, but definitely not balanced.

Mesmers weren’t free bags before either. You’re fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

Lest my comment be interpreted otherwise, I don’t think mesmers as a class should be reverted to pre-patch, and I don’t think they should be hard to play. But get real.

Of all the proposals on where to move MH and what to swap for it, yours is the best, imo. It also better bifurcates the role of support warrior and control warrior. I’m also ok with where MH is now, but admit I haven’t been using hammer much since the patch for different reasons.

The proposed changes to the banner trait seem a little strange though. I mean, the utility is obvious (it’s a lot like how Ritualists could move their spirits around in GW1), but it might be too much and it would look awkward too, fwiw.

Why not just give the CD reduction (as you suggested) and add the radius boost that banners had before?

skowcia.8257:

Uhum. Cyclone axe is actually perma vul. Do you see anyone complaining? As far i know savage leap used to leap for 900 (without move speed buffs) unless they fixed it, then again theres no problem to reduce the ranger to 600, right mr mad? Damage is also close to current cyclone axe if you look over wiki.. as for sword..since when its a power weapon to begin with?

Fierce strike is a melee version of throw axe as well. with longer animation, and extra 1 second of cripple.

Axe storm..25sec cd pull is op now? With easy to spot animation?

I see in your world everyone runs with unbinded dodge button, facetanking everything you throw at them (seems to be hotjoin?) if these changes are op in your eyes. These changes brings more utility, not pure damage buffs to 1 shot everything. It also make it less depending on gs opening other weapon combinations. But nvm im not going to argue with you as it would be a waste of time, just throwed my idea around. Bye

Why get defensive about it?

Savage Leap has a range of 600 and has a base damage of 252, whereas your Crushing Leap has a range of 900 and a base damage of 440.

Cyclone gives 4 stacks of vuln around the warrior and 236 base damage, but your Crushing Leap gives 6 stacks at the end of a leap that hits harder. With axes traited, the 6 stacks is permanent.

Result: You’ve combined Savage Leap and Cyclone Axe into one skill, and buffed the range and the damage. In the process, making Axe the most mobile weapon set available to the warrior by a significant margin, especially when traited.

Throw Axe is a single target cripple that lasts for 4s and has a 1/4s cast time. Your Fierce Strike is an aoe cripple that lasts for 5s on a 1/2s cast time.

Result: Fierce Strike provides more cripple to more targets where you want it – close to you, which is the pain box for the axe. It’s basically Hammer Shock with a shorter range but on a (now) much deadlier weapon set. Hammer Shock is way better than Throw Axe.

You’ve increased the dps of Whirling Axes by 28.5% with just your 1s reduction to channel time, and then thrown a 15% damage buff on top of that. You’ve also given it reflect.

Result: You’ve made it so Whirling Axes provides the best projectile defense by a lot (longest uptime/CD), given it a feature that the other skills only get via the shield trait, and buffed it to the same dps as 100 blades, but on a mobile whirl finisher hitting 360 degrees around the warrior instead of just right in front of him.

Earthshaker in, channel whirling blades, and you’ll kill every single person who doesn’t have a stunbreak while anyone outside the range can’t do anything to you except ground targetting skills. Oh, and if you’re standing in a field (e.g. fire)? Yeah, gg. On the off chance someone was tanky enough to live through all of that? “Say hello to my fully charged Eviscerate!”

True, your Axe Storm has a longer CD than I’d realized. Of course, it still has the same effect as the Guardian’s Binding Blade but on a lower CD.

The end result is axes become the most mobile, highest dps, best defensive weapon set of all the weapon sets open to warriors, and gets some control thrown in for good measure.

Does that seem balanced to you? It shouldn’t, which is why I’m surprised by your reaction. You make it seem like I just said your idea wasn’t balanced to be mean, when it’s immediately obvious that it isn’t.

Yeah, I don’t see a justification for the shorter range either.

@bhagwad
Counterplay. Yeah, that’s pretty much it there. But, imo, a better route to counterplay isn’t increasing the amount of revealing skills out there, it’s making it so the stealths provide short-term tactical advantage and nothing more.

Both thieves and mesmers should have effective stealths… it makes combat more dynamic and interesting. If everyone has access to revealing skills, then it effectively kills stealth.

If you make it so stealth isn’t stackable and just long enough for someone to reposition in a fight (and gain a damage bonus, for thieves), or to get a reasonable head start on a retreat, then that’s fine. The person not in stealth isn’t a total sitting duck, and the person using stealth still gets a big advantage.

For me, that leaves enough room for counterplay without completely borking the value of stealth (and the classes built around it).

I prefer the idea of boosting the damage numbers on the non-Rampage physicals and possibly decreasing the damage numbers on Rampage.

Whenever you put a 100% buff on anything through a trait, the trait’s either going to make the skills OP or the skills will be useless without the trait. Neither of those are particularly good options.

Unless you have an eye to solving issues while maintaining balance, there’s no purpose to proposing these sorts of changes.

The process of “we are at X, I want more, so let’s have X+Y” is just a path to breaking the game. The goal should be making all classes be fun to play, with lots of diversity, and no faceroll easy godmodes.

Look at your proposed Crushing Leap. It travels 50% further than savage leap, does double the damage, hits three targets, and applies a fair bit of vulnerability (perma +6% damage if traited). Combine that with the cone-shaped cripple on Fierce Strike and the pull on Axe Storm and why would anyone play anything but axes?

Your mobility would be better than any weapon set a warrior has, you would be almost impossible to kite, and you would do insane damage via axe auto, your buffed Whirling Axes, and Eviscerate.

To the OP, if warriors get access to Taunt, I expect we’ll see more Whirling Axe use than we have now. Combustive Shot -> Taunt ->Whirling Axes would be deadly.

denis.9487:

Pu makes escaping easy. If that’s what you consider face roll, then it stands to reason that all these warriors are upset since they had the monopoly on disengagements. The only difference is being able to see the opponent flee.

Easy escape is one of the things it allows you to do. It also gives you quite a lot of breathing room in a fight to get to your heal, recharge your illusion-generating potential, reposition for another burst, and a long time frame in which to choose when to initiate your burst, whether at range or melee.

Mesmer CDs on offense and defense are relatively short, and the stealth bonus on PU really allows someone using it to maximize that advantage. If you’re just using PU to run away, you’re missing out on its in-combat potential.

Purecura.1795:

This. PU Mesmer is fine. People are complaining because they just dont know HOW to deal with the new Mesmer. But that does not mean we are invincible. Just not as easy to kill, like before.

Except running a PU mesmer is faceroll easy to play, and the counterplay is limited relative to where it should be. If you don’t think PU is dead easy, or that mesmers were easy kills before the PU buff, then the l2p issue isn’t with people calling for a nerf to PU.

I’m fairly certain more people would use OH axe if axe 5 had reflect. In fact, s+a/lb would be a pretty obvious route to take (double axes anywhere that mobility isn’t needed).

Several people have noted the oddity of a skill stolen from warriors being better than the warrior version, but it wouldn’t be the justification for it.

Now, would it be OP? Quite possibly… that’d be a 3.5s reflect on a 15s CD assuming no trait, that also does reasonably good aoe damage and is a whirl finisher to boot. So if WH was buffed with reflect, I’d expect a little downgrade tweaking to come along with it.

I also recommend you put more sinister gear on there. Imo, you don’t need your armor that high and your dps would be hugely improved by taking advantage of the direct damage both weapons offer.

Even if it isn’t a troll thread, it should be recognized that there will always be a “best” party comp to clear a dungeon in the shortest amount of time, and that “elitists” will always kick people not getting them closer to that ideal comp.

In other words, no amount of buffs to the warrior will guarantee inclusion in those parties without simultaneously ensuring the exclusion of other classes. It’s a zero sum game.

DaShi.1368:

The problem is for every reasonable complaint, you get tons of people, like Choppy, who just have an ax to grind against the mesmer. They spend more time complaining about the mesmer than doing anything else on these forums. What ever reasonable criticisms are simply drowned out.

Lmao, an axe so sharp it didn’t cut nearly as deep as your own proposals and has since become a pretty common position among mesmers in the various threads.

Alright, DaShi, you go ahead and keep proving the point about some of the more defensive types who main mesmers.

I find shield to be pretty great as is, tbh, and not really in need of a rework and certainly not a buff. The shield trait is pretty amazing.

I wish there weren’t so many unblockable attacks to get through the little respite we get from shield stance, but still….

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I don’t think people hate mesmers per se. Nor did ppl kitten about “mesmers being impossible to defeat” literally. However, there is an issue regarding balance that goes beyond the lazy knee jerk “L2P”.

I think that what fuels the hate mainly comes from the many mesmer maining ppl who are fighting tooth and nail to avoid acknowledging even an iota of a possible problem (often coming of as blatantly trolling and of very bad faith when discussing the issue). They probably fear the nerf hammer more than anything else but, sadly, the coping strategies that fear engender make many of them very unlikable ppl in the eyes of those who have valid points.

My 2 cents

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on matter. For sure, the best suggestions for dealing with the balance issues have come from people who know the class best, which makes sense.

But there’s a lot of dismissing people who don’t play the class as having l2p issues that plays to a pretty massive blind spot and conceit. The corollary is clinging to any comment from an outsider saying the class is fine as is. Both are two sides of the same confirmation bias.

People who’ve mained mesmers for a long time aren’t going to be the most knowledgeable of how out of line they are to fight against or to play as a new mesmer, relative to other classes. Most people’s acknowledge a power buff to the class, but it’s pretty kitten ed easy to assume the class is finally balanced and your success all comes down to your own skill.

Still, bottom line, there’s a healthy contingent of mesmers taking the time to identify key areas to rebalance. Hopefully, Anet listens to them and doesn’t gut the class. It’s happened to others.

Other things that can help against the plethora of bad mesmers out there (like me, when I run mine): keep moving and clear clones/phantasms when they’re in stealth or it’s otherwise convenient.

An ideal scenario from the mesmer perspective is surrounding you with 3 clones and themselves for a burst. Don’t let the fight remain on a single point. I basically keep moving around, stringing the clones along so they’re following me, then I’ll throw a bladetrail or use a whirlwind to clear them out in one shot… sometimes auto attack. Pruning the clones and phantasms and otherwise slowing the shatter by not getting surrounded prolongs the fight.

Prolonging the fight provides more opportunities for the mesmer to make a mistake, and the bad mesmers will inevitably make them. Eventually they’ll be out of stealths and their clone production will slow down. Then set up a cc+burst or even a whirlwind attack (if using gs) to finish them off. You won’t always kill them, but you can force a retreat or reset, which isn’t bad for you either.

The above is what I’ve been doing as a zerk warrior in wvw. Slow the fight down by always moving and clearing clones, bait them close, surprise them with something painful. They have a clear build advantage, but at least you can limit the number of inferior players facerolling you.

Oh, and remember, they only have one teleport. If you catch them with a cc and they disappear, assume they’re still there and burst the hell out of the air. They might not actually be there (one of their stealths is a stun break, like the teleport), but you could get lucky.

I use Bulls Charge in Wvw, but be warned that it’s buggier than ever. Chances of missing get really high the further away you are from the target and if they’re moving at all (even running straight to you).

It helps for mobility, but it’s also not as good for that as it used to be.

(I dont use Rampage)

Loboling.5293:

Sad to see this move to the necromancer forums, as it is more a showcase of horrible and funny warrior gameplay than anything interesting in necro play. Moderators need a sense of humor.

This video is a mockery of warriors that play like pve npcs. Possibly players that were used in coding for Ranger Pets. In fact, you need to make another dueling video with a ranger who has his pet on passive and is using these warriors as pets instead. Make it a comparison for if the wolf pet or warrior pet is more effective. Would be too lols.

Agreed.

inneedoflife.5092:

Guild Wars 2 will fail more if that’s how Anet thinks! The difference between winners and losers is that winners do things that losers don’t want to do! if they want to go the easy route and avoid more challenges then other game companies will come along and steal there player base because they have the ambitious desires to become winners and make a prefect game!… cough Fallout 4*cough*

Point being, it wouldn’t be consistent with your, ““KISS” Keep it Simple & Straightforward” thing.

Whether it should happen or not is another matter. Would it be worth the effort? Dunno… they aren’t going to make any more money for it and, given the reactions they get even from good decisions, they’re going to get rage, hate, and QQ anyway, so maybe not.

I wouldn’t be sad if I had three weapons though.

Well, it’s been suggested before and I actually kind of like the idea in concept. Here’s the thing though, it probably wouldn’t be that simple to execute.

Afaik, it’d be much easier for Anet to just give us a new weapon, skill type, and line of traits than pulling this off. All the QQ that would come from others, rightly or wrongly, plus the resulting balance changes that would be needed, would probably make it more trouble than it’s worth. And that’s in addition to the extra development work that would be needed to support the mechanic.

Meh, if anything it’s a helpful PSA for newer players. Kids, if you’re chasing a necro, ranger, whoever and you notice your trading more damage along the way, don’t keep doing what you’re doing. They’re pooping while they run and you’re stepping in every pile.

I liked the lulz of the video, personally.

Solori.6025:

ASP.8093:

I feel like this discussion is way more personal than it needs to be. :/

Yea…
Hommie is talking about his post history like we attacked his family and dishonored his land.

Lol, if you don’t want answers to your questions, don’t ask them.

As for me editing posts, try to find an example where I did that anywhere that mattered. Denis called me out on it after I changed a post I’d written to someone else, having to do with changes to warrior mobility, while he was responding to another part of that post, which he’d quoted iirc, and clearly remained unchanged.

I write these posts on a phone. It takes longer. Sue me.

And the point still stands. The most cutting, specific nerfs have been proposed my mesmers. When someone else expresses something less deep or specific, wagons circle.

Incorrect. Someone, you maybe, originally made the point that it didn’t provide a stealth benefit in PvP and so it shouldn’t be nerfed. My response then, and to you more recently, was that the proposition that PU stealth doesn’t matter in PvP pulls PvP out of consideration on whether or not the trait should be nerfed.

Every example I’ve given in support of a nerf has come from small to mid size Wvw, which is applicable in at least 3/4 of Wvw play.

See my post history. It’s all there, and I even recapped the point and this phenomenon of defensiveness a few times in this very thread too.

I didn’t propose a specific change to mesmers except to the stealth buff on PU, and that was well in line with what you’re calling for now.

Things like nerfing the entire stealth mechanic was offered by mesmers while simultaneously portraying my proposed reduction to PU as completely uncalled for.

apharma has used a misguided PvP argument in rejection of a PU stealth nerd more than once, even though he seems fine with +2s now.

Taking a step back allowed me to see the same thing happening with others, so its clearly something beyond anything specific I’ve posted.

Except I’d already agreed to changes you’re both talking about on other threads right now (PU becomes a 2s buff) PLUS a buff to Veil that you’re not currently asking for.

Yet, the very notion that I was saying PU stealth was too strong was just a warrior troll looking to nerf the class .

The suggestion that mesmers get in front of the Nerfbat by recognizing the problem and making specific proposals was a major point expressed in all mesmer threads I posted in and the warrior one about mesmers.

You’re doing the same thing with these other guys.

I’ve consistently observed a pattern here in which people who main mesmers identify specific things they think should be nerfed, but as soon as someone who doesn’t identify as maining a mesmer expresses a general complaint (e.g. mesmers are faceroll easy to play, mesmers are op at the moment) or proposes specific changes that may even be less than the changes proposed by mesmers, all the defensive nonsense kicks into high gear. Then, suddenly, mesmers are perfect as is and everyone needs to stop hating and l2p.

I fought two separate warriors who popped rampage while I was on my trashtastic mesmer and it really didn’t help them. Blinds, distortion, and stealth rendered rendered it useless, tbh.

On my warrior, I’ve switched back to SoR, even though I run Peak Performance, because I find the fury, might, swiftness, and perma access to my full skill bar more valuable overall. Plus you get fewer accusations of cheese.

Either way, it looks like an intervention to RD is needed. I don’t see anybody saying 7k+ is reasonable, and I’ve had more buffs on me when I’ve hit low 4k than the person in the video, so it may be bugged.

Well, we’re fighting your server right now so if I see a guy running my build I’ll do my best to kill you out of principle. Have fun.

I’ve been something extremely similar for the past week or so (well, until I started spending more time on my mesmer).

I made slightly different choices, but it probably comes down to preference. My stability is crap, being automatic and on a 90s CD (yikes), but I’m pretty good at dodging, etc.

Frenzy is awesome, and I like my condi management and rune choice better, personally. I sometimes swap in my Strength Rune set, but prefer Pack when roaming.

Mobility is about as good as it gets for warriors, and the sustain isn’t bad. Flurry is not a very good cc these days, especially against warriors who are mostly immune to it, but you can catch some people with it and burst them down.

It’s definitely serviceable as a build.

Improvised Weapon. “Grab the nearest ally or opponent by the ankles and start swinging through the rest.”

Sykper.6583:

Decided to go into HotM for some testing purposes.

Stacked 25 stacks might with GS, took Arms for the 5% more damage to bleeding target, Strength to proc a full Berserker’s Power, Tactics for Empowered and Empower Allies.

Mind you, Berserker’s Amulet and Ogre runes caused this, I forgot to apply a Sigil of Force to the GS but that being said, we can more or less consider how a 212% increased critical damage might be affected by the number of % increases we get from traits.

For the record, around 25 stacks of might I looked at Reckless dodge’s trait to see its damage, I got it around 1100 damage on a dodge roll, so factor in the percentages and the critical damage…

Wvw will give a mixture of additional buffs, but we’re still pretty close to the max possible damage under some pretty unlikely conditions with the original screen shot.

Perhaps it’s not that big of a deal. Still, it’s a wicked strong trait, imo.

The rifle might be a “best chance” scenario that follows the Eviscerate model of getting a surprise devastating burst in there, but it suffers from many of the same problems.

Can be done at range as soon as stealth ends, but ks is pretty easy to avoid and mesmers can trait for reflect on skill use.

Longbow can be really good, not just because of the condi pressure but also because the fire will eat clones thereby reducing shatter damage. Be careful though, I run Arcane Thievery on my mesmer (not optimal probably, but it’s also traited to reflect), and that would allow me to give you your burn, bleed, and torment back while I take your fury, might, and swiftness. Manta of Resolve is a pretty good condi remover as well.

Someone in the Mesmer forum posted this pic of him taking 6,960 damage from Reckless Dodge. He said he was wearing a mix of Knights and Berserker gear, and seems to be posting for the lulz not the QQ.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/197195/gw041.jpg

Questions:

1. What is a normal Reckless Dodge for you post-patch?
2. What is the highest Reckless Dodge damage you’ve noticed?
3. What were the circumstances that allowed it?
4. How much damage is too much for RD, in your opinion?

My RDs are usually in the 3k range, iirc, though I regularly get in the low-mid 4k range if I’ve built up a lot of might. I run full zerk and trait for Strength.

I don’t know how much is too much, but the potential to take someone’s health down to roughly half (on up to 5 targets) with a dodge seems excessive to me.

Simonoly.4352:

I got one of my values mixed up with a meteor proc. It was actually just under 7K Reckless Dodge. It was quite the surprise. I had a good laugh about it.

Do you know if there were likely any additional status effects on you at the time?

I might write him in game or post your pic in the warrior forum (if it’s ok with you) because I’ll get maybe a 4.2k crit in full zerk, with a few damage modifiers, and about 10 might against a glass opponent.

Something’s not adding up with that damage. And, yes, it’s way too high and absolutely should be addressed unless it was a pretty unique set of circumstances.

And, like burst, I’ve not called for changes to stealth or complained about thieves either. Sorry, it’s not an l2p issue regarding stealth if I’m not calling for changes to stealth outside of the trait.

Sykper.6583:

ReaperJr.5967:

Actually, after more testing, I realised the best way to kill a mesmer is to surprise burst him. I’ve been testing a new build with axe/shield gs with heightened focus and it has been working extremely well so far.

I have to agree.

We can’t do attrition against them, we have to take a ‘thief’ approach and wreck them in the first few seconds of the fight, preferably without them aware. They can’t get into kiting us because at that point we already lose (not enough active mitigation and gap closers to counter their kite).

What sucks about this is that the build we have to run to deal with mesmers, can get wrecked by other currently powerful builds like Burn Guardian or your typical D/D ele.

As I mentioned earlier, that’ll only work if the mesmer is drunk or distracted. I don’t even wait for HF, I’ll usually pop Frenzy if I manage to land a Bulls Charge or something.

The reason being most mesmers are packing two stun breaks on roughly 30s timers in their utility slots, one also being a stealth and the other also being a 1200 range teleport. They can also F3 to immediately interrupt your burst (1s daze with no clones) and F4 to give them some relief (1s distortion with no clones). If they have their sword equipped, they could also hit you with Blurred Frenzy, which looks just like 100b and hits hard, but you’ll be taking their damage while they take none of yours.

You basically have to kill him before he realizes what’s happening and uses one of his many tools to deal with the threat.

You could get lucky with an Eviscerate, but it’s a small window and they should be able to recover unless they’ve been sloppy. Also, most mesmers are packing blind on shatter, so you should be blinded by the time you’re ready to try an Eviscerate.

With no clones up, any of their four shatters will immediately blind you, which is faster than a dodge and guaranteed to prevent Eviscerate from landing unless you have Berserker Stance up.

I’d mostly kite an axe warrior and wear him down at range with greatsword and shatters if I was running my mesmer.

denis.9487:

Choppy.4183:

No denis, you’re not hearing the point. It’s not the burst I’m referring to but the stealth benefit that makes landing those bursts and avoiding counter bursts a problem.

I’ve expressed this a number of ways, most clearly, I think, by referring to the risk:reward ratio as being way too low relative to other classes.

That burst damage is unaffected by PU is not in dispute. That burst from stealth was possible pre-patch, and is a standard tactic without PU now, is not in dispute.

I posted in the warrior thread that I was lobbying to have PU stealth reduced, which I was in the PU thread. I said demands for further nerfs should/could probably wait until HoT.

Then the issue is with the game. It had been stated over and over. Burst pre patch was there. Post patch burst still there with or without pu. The issue you are having is learn to play or don’t play the game. Because you are not happy with stealth doesn’t mean nerf a trait that is working.

Sorry denis, I’m done. I just pointed to the issue for you, and all you did was restate something that’s not in dispute (after I explicitly said it wasn’t) and completely beside the point.

If I was concerned about burst, I wouldn’t be focusing on PU stealth, would I? No.

That’s been a pretty consistent refrain here… people reading things into what’s being said, making assumptions about motivations, and then presenting counter arguments that are completely unrelated to the point being made.

Ultimately, whatever. I’ll keep running a PU build to cover for obscenely low skill with a mesmer until I get good enough to do more interesting things, and those that want to keep telling themselves that the “mesmer hate” is all from people who just don’t understand the game can keep living in the bubble.

Simonoly.4352:

I was on a mixture of zerk and knight’s at the time. Fully levelled. I have screenshots of all the scenarios I mentioned because they made me chuckle

Please post the screenshots and the warrior IGN if you have it. The damage calc doesn’t allow for Reckless Dodge to proc that high (even criting with 25 might and 25 vulnerability), so it may be a bug.

No denis, you’re not hearing the point. It’s not the burst I’m referring to but the stealth benefit that makes landing those bursts and avoiding counter bursts a problem.

I’ve expressed this a number of ways, most clearly, I think, by referring to the risk:reward ratio being way too low relative to other classes.

That burst damage is unaffected by PU is not in dispute. That burst from stealth was possible pre-patch, and is a standard tactic without PU now, is not in dispute.

I posted in the warrior thread that I was lobbying to have PU stealth reduced, which I was in the PU thread. I said demands from warriors for further nerfs should/could probably wait until HoT.

Depending on comp, I expect you could also use gs warriors to maintain a lot of might for the zerg beyond the initial stack using PS. One bladetrail into a blob would be a crazy amount of might for a lot of people, so would a Whirlwind.

Don’t know that it’d be optimal, but it could be perfectly viable. Especially now that tankiness is a matter of gear choice.

apharma.3741:

You read but didn’t think or just completely missed the point. When rapid fire was buffed a lot of people screamed for nerfs, said it effectively gave too much reward to rangers (burst from safe range) especially in WvW and there was a lot of it. That’s mostly calmed down now because people have learnt to fight it and changed builds accordingly.

Indeed, I thought you were making another point. What’s not clear to me is why you’d direct that at me when all I’ve called for is some sort of rollback on a buff to one trait that wasn’t asked for by the mesmer community but is causing real grief in wvw and has no real counterplay. In the PU thread, I even said I’d support a buff to Veil and probably a slightly smaller buff to the PU stealth bonus than it received, but a buff nonetheless. Otherwise, I’ve recreated text I’ve posted elsewhere saying it’d probably be better to hold off nerfing the class for a while until the real problems are actually understood. Completely consistent with your ranger point.

Meanwhile, others on this thread (e.g. DaShi) have called for several nerfs that would be more significant to the class, including one to stealth that would have implications beyond PU and wvw, yet somehow I’m the one portrayed as the warrior troll with an agenda to trash the class.

apharma.3741:

You’re still not seeing it and I’m getting sick of trying to explain it without sock puppets.

IF a skill or trait in PvP is not conveying much of an advantage, it is not conducive to getting points faster and by your own admittance has much better options elsewhere then you don’t need to change/nerf it. Changing something that was buffed in the patch back to pre patch when it meets these conditions is just silly.

I’m afraid it’s you that’s not getting it, though I’ll try not to be as rude as you just were while I explain it to you again.

Yes, the long stealth bonus doesn’t appear to give much of an advantage in pvp and there are probably better traits to take anyway. Your point is, “therefore, there’s no reason to reduce it”. My counterpoint is, “that also means there’s also no pvp reason to leave it as is because PU stealth is a non factor in pvp… but it IS a problem in a significant part of wvw, and solving that problem would be relatively easy with no impact on pvp precisely because of your point, that PU stealth isn’t a factor there.”

Is that clear now?

apharma.3741:

Again, that could be because people just aren’t used to dealing with mesmer burst because there just weren’t that many around pre patch. Which brings us back to rapid fire syndrome, I’ve already heard of other classes adapting, changing and saying they’re beating mesmers now. The thing is, it will take time as we’ve all had traits completely messed up all across the classes.

Well, you’ll have to validate that claim. Speaking solely for myself, I have quite a lot of experience fighting mesmers in wvw and, pre-patch, they already had a class advantage over my main (and not once did I write anywhere complaining about it). Immediately before patch, shatter mesmers were the popular choice for build, though condi had its day before that, especially when the original PU came out (and was subsequently nerfed, I might add).

Meanwhile, I’ve already reported back on MY experience being on the other side of a PU mesmer, and how it’s a total faceroll over many opponents with obviously greater class skill than I have with the mesmer. This has included strangers who’s skill I can kitten based on my real ability with their class, and people I know who are both familiar with their class and have plenty of experience fighting mesmers.

This is evidence that speaks directly against your assumption that people just don’t have experience fighting against mesmers. You haven’t provided any evidence to support your claim, nor have you accounted for why there’d be a difference in the number of mesmer bursts people now have to confront.

apharma.3741:

This is why I want nerfs or “reversions”, as you like to disguise the name, left for a while before Anet can get a handle on the wider issues.

I use the word revert because that’s the appropriate word to use. I’ve proposed bringing one trait back to where it was three weeks ago when nobody had an issue with it. A nerf could be more cutting like, for example, proposing that mesmers shouldn’t do damage while in stealth (e.g. clones, phantasms).

Somehow that gets a pass by the mesmer community, while a proposal to something that apparently doesn’t matter to any part of the game “that matters” (as some of you would have it), is a plot to destroy the class. Amazing.

Confirmation bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

“Backing off the thread”.

Point proven.

I mean, I was going to, but then you had to cast that last stone, trying to get me off the subforum altogether. That sort of aggression can’t stand, man.

Will you apologize? You really should. These are public forums for everybody, not just people who believe the same things you do, you know.

I’ve taken a lot of abuse here, with my motivations and character called into question repeatedly, when all I’ve done is try to answer the threads question.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Choppy.4183:

Well hell, Arshay, I may just have to stick around just for you. Thanks for the motivation.

That just confirms you’re only here to troll, and thus only proves my point. Well done.

What’s adorable is that in a thread that’s literally asking, “why do people hate mesmers?”, you’d rather have it be a bunch of people who main mesmers telling each other that everyone else just be hatin’ and anyone who dares say otherwise is just another hater. lmao

Well hell, Arshay, I may just have to stick around just for you. Thanks for the motivation.

You should also learn what the words you use mean. “Warrior apologist” wouldn’t apply even if I was doing what you think I’m doing, which I’m not.

@apharma
I’m mostly backing off the thread because, beating dead horses and whatnot. But to your points:

1. If it doesn’t convey a benefit to pvp, it means pvp provides absolutely no reason to keep the long stealth. We know that ANet does pay attention to other game modes and makes changes in response to what goes on there. So we have a situation where a buff is way too strong in one part of the game, and it can be safely fixed without affecting the other parts.
2. Needing to be a skilled mesmer in order to be a threat. I mean, all classes need time investment to be a threat to skilled players. That I can be a major threat to skilled non-mesmers when I’m mesmer trash is absolutely not consistent with how it is for other classes, imo.

I’ve never played a Rapid Fire ranger, but they’re usually pretty boned if you can close the distance and there are lots of tools to do that. Sometimes you can’t close and they get a cheap win, but it’s pretty limited. It’s because of Rapid Fire that rangers tend to get trained first in a fight too, so it’s a bit of a mixed blessing for them.

denis.9487:

You keep calling me buddy troll sweetheart but I don’t think you read. My issue is with constantly trying to nerf pu. I have been saying over and over again that 1 all classes need the stats from trait lines moved to items looked at 2 blind on shatters 3 small cd on cs. In no way shape or form did I say we are fine. Pu is fine it is a defensive trait that when taken takes away from another line that can be used for more burst or control. Seems pretty balanced to me.

DaShi also wants to take away mesmers ability to do damage from stealth. Would you prefer that to changing a 100% stealth bonus to an extra 1-2 sec stealth bonus?

If so, go ahead and start petitioning Anet, but know you’re asking to nerf mesmers more than I am.

DaShi.1368:

I looked at your posting history. Your motivations are there for everyone to see. You just don’t like PU and mesmers because they interfere with your warrior roaming in WvW. If you want people to believe something else, post something else.

Like when I wrote something like this, more than once, for that matter?

Choppy.4183:

I think most people that main mesmers recognize that things aren’t balanced at the moment, but they’ll also rightly point out that a lot of things aren’t balanced. Frankly, I’d hate to see the same thing happen to mesmer that happened to warrior, basically, demands for nerfs to the class at the slightest whiff of OP, real or not, thereby unnecessarily sucking the fun out of things….

I don’t know yet what’s required to bring things in balance, but I’m pretty certain blanket nerfs will make things worse.

No, I’ve called for a rollback on one aspect of PU and holding off on anything too drastic despite the evident balance problem. You’ve called for much deeper cuts to mesmer stealth and mesmers generally than I have.

@DaShi
It’s a pity you feel that way.

You’ve called for deeper cuts to mesmer than I have on the grounds of balance, whereas denis has repeatedly said mesmers are exactly where they should be.

I’ve challenged you on one argument about PU, and you’ve opted to assume motivations that aren’t there and generalized them to all warriors instead of addressing the issue. You left your argument at,

DaShi.1368:

My overall point is that the problem with PU isn’t PU. It’s the inconsistent way that stealth is implemented on mesmers. Mesmers can still use damage skills while in stealth. With this fixed, the problems with PU become significantly less.

Which is a helluva lot closer to my position than denis’. The difference is you want a more aggressive intervention to mesmer stealth than what I’ve proposed, yet, in your mind, I’m the one that wants to trash the class out of… envy? Suit yourself.

I’ll just stick with mesmer because it’s clearly the superior class. Eventually you’ll notice other people realizing the same thing.