Guild Wars 2

I still see viable builds in there but, yeah, the buffs to longbow don’t make any sense considering how much pressure there is to use longbow in pvp already.

That being said, unless it was a typo, changing CI to proc on burst activation instead of hit does lessen the pressure to use lb somewhat. At least we won’t sit there helplessly bleeding out when immobilized by a ranged type. Opens up a handy way to clear slow, chilled, etc. if running melee too.

Plus, if condis dominate the metas again, CI as it stands, traited Mending, Brawlers Recovery, Warriors Sprint, Dogged March, and Cleansing Sigil have us in a pretty good spot.

Overall, these changes are all “meh” and “wtf” compared with what they announced a while back, but nothing worth raging about.

It’s a question of trade offs that also factor into gear selection.

For example, a while back I shifted away from WS and went with pack runes, which allowed me to maintain perma swiftness in combat and pretty much perms swiftness out of combat using SoR and Balanced Stance. I find this better than WS, and Pack Runes is a great rune set otherwise, even though I ended up putting my Strength Runes in the bank when I made the switch.

I can also run with a traited warhorn to give 10 people perma swiftness,. Again no WS required, and Tactics is becoming a more useful line under the new changes, making this a very viable option.

I can just rely on the gap closers on weapons for mobility if I want, or I can use ranged weapons if dealing with kiters and assuming I’m not using escape as a defense strategy, or I could equip Traveller or Speed Runes like everybody else if I felt my mobility was too low and I didn’t want to change my traits or weapons.

That’s pretty much why I’m not for making WS baseline. We have more options than most classes when it comes to mobility.

Sebrent.3625:

Other classes are in much worse shape when it comes to being jumped by 5 players from stealth.

And let’s be real, all classes should be in bad shape if jumped by 5 players from stealth. But yes, even still, warriors are already comparatively advantaged if they are jumped.

Terrahero.9358:

No absolutely not.

These are just for the convenience of some people’s builds. People who don’t really want to invest deeply into Discipline beyond getting Fast Hands and Warrior Sprint. Two very good traits.
If these could just be baseline they can skip this traitline entirely, but still get the main attraction from it.

Cleansing Ire they want to be a minor trait because now Warriors have to choose! Cleansing Ire or Last Stand (which also has the 25% stance duration worked in) as these traits compete for the same Master slot.
And they simply want both, they don’t want to make that choice.

This has nothing to do with balance, neither are these buffs justified. It’s just some people who are trying to get their ideal build going, and they just can’t make it happen as it currently stands.

That’s actually not it. The Warrior Sprint suggestions have been dismissed by most of the warriors on the threads, practically no one has supported making CI baseline but there has been some acceptance of moving the adren on hit component baseline and/or rearranging the trait line a bit, and the Fast Hands as baseline has had the most support of them all.

Once the new trait system is in, it seems generally accepted that warriors will sink 1/3 traits into Discipline like they sink at least 3 points into Discipline now. Given that all meta builds for a long time (certainly in competitive arenas) trait FH anyway, there’d be no power creep from the trait itself if made baseline (because everyone already runs it), but it should open up more build diversity.

If the freedom to not choose Discipline leads to any unbalanced OP warrior builds, they could be addressed directly through changes that address those builds instead of the class as a whole.

ronpierce.2760:

lighter.2708:

I play 43332 in pve I feel im strong its viable I kill stuuf quick

This whole thing is turning into “mandatory for pvp”, which is a weak argument because the same arguments could be made for Arcana, Soul Reaping, etc. That’s not that big of a deal. Nature Magic and Wilderness Survival could feel just as necessary to have some sort of Condi removal because otherwise pvp is suicide. Common issue to find certain attributed more suited for pvp. Not a reason to be handed everything for free.

Except you typically have several options for condi removal. Even though there may be a more optimal path with respect to handling condis, that’s a function of the amount of condi pressure you’re facing in your particular matchups.

These different paths are why you see different builds handling condis in their own way. Not so with FH, where all builds trait it, except in pve where balance between classes doesn’t matter and, even there, most still do.

But, again, you can look at it the other way too. If all the warriors in these competitive places are traiting it, the argument against making it baseline is empty. It wouldn’t do anything to pve (obviously), and it wouldn’t do much to pvp and wvw either except promote build diversity with little (easily mitigated) power creep if any at all.

Juba.8406:

Felix Harper.9572:

The EA warroir build 6 4 0 4 0 does not run fast hands.

Nothing against you poster, but if people in this thread use PvE as an argument you are pathetic.

In fairness, Juba, I think Felix was just being helpful by identifying a build that doesn’t use FH. I’d put the challenge to ronpierce and, afaik, Felix hasn’t made any sort of argument for or against.

That it’s the best/only example that exists and doesn’t meet the, “one that keeps pace with non warriors, can win fights, etc” criteria (because it’s a pve (dungeon) build) only demonstrates that FH is necessary for warrior class balance as things stand.

Way too powerful and completely unnecessary. There’s no case for buffing warrior mobility.

I’m also with Cygnus in that Warrior Sprint is fine as proposed in the upcoming changes.

I’m not giving him flak at all, I’m saying trait balance between classes has virtually no role in pve. Not because pve is somehow inferior to the other game modes, but because classes aren’t in direct competition with each other there except for a spot in a party.

If warrior banners brought 1000 to each attribute for a party, but warriors couldn’t attack and had zero armor, they’d be completely underpowered as a class and yet everyone would want them in a dungeon party. Similarly, that EA build is weak in any sort of competitive arena, where class balance matters. It has a role in pve because class balance has no role there.

If all we have for a build type that doesn’t use FH is one used in pve (and not even the dominant), then what more evidence do we need that FH is mandatory for warriors?

Again, it’s not simply a great trait that people want if:

1. All warriors run it where class balance is relevant, and
2. Warriors aren’t overpowered when it’s traited

I already said removing FH would support build diversity, but the evidence all points to warriors being underpowered without it. Ergo, there’d be much more work ahead to balance the classes if FH was removed from warriors. Not so with making it baseline.

Felix Harper.9572:

The EA warroir build 6 4 0 4 0 does not run fast hands.

So… one type of build setup that’s specifically for pve? Where balance between classes doesn’t matter because the goal is whatever party comp will lead to the fastest clears of npcs?

I feel like that more or less makes the point right there.

ronpierce.2760:

Well… It’s actually not that bad at all, as you could dps in axe and/or sword decently effectively for an extended period of time, it’s just not optimal. But that’s just the thing, nothing else has room to be optimal When one this is OP.

The main reason I either want everyone to have it, no one, or leave it as a Discipline trait is much more than the swap value, but it completely changes the value and power of sigils for warrior.

Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me:

1. Can you provide a viable build that doesn’t trait FH? One that keeps pace with non warriors, can win fights, etc?
2. All warriors already run FH, so making it baseline changes nothing with respect to warriors and sigils
3. No one has denied that FH is a powerful trait, but if all warriors run it and warriors aren’t OP now, then what’s the issue?

Julie Yann.5379:

I’m betting that my might stacking cele hybrid will be getting a nice boost.

Aren’t they nerfing cele a bit, increasing the baseline Condi damage required to do any sort of damage, and possibly not fully replacing the boon duration Tactics provides now?

I’ve not spent a great deal of time looking at it, but though it looks like the traits are better for that build than they are now, the other changes didn’t seem favorable at first glance.

Ideally both. It remains to be seen what the changes to conditions will do and, if you’re still levelling, you still have time before you have to worry about it. If you prefer Condi in pve now, it’s only going to get better.

Gear while you’re levelling is pretty cheap, and one of the blessings/curses of the warrior is that it’s pretty straightforward to figure out the mechanics of any build.

Also, hammer isn’t a great pve weapon, but it’s great against other players, which is what TDM builds for.

Sykper.6583:

More or less, I am thinking about how massively expanded other professions (Mesmers, Thieves, Elementalists) gained with their revamped core lines compared to us and in some regard, Necromancers and Engineers (Those poor souls).

With concern to build diversity, my suggestion for Disc was simply a direct nerf to the line, in anticipation that somewhere down the road Strength and Arms might see some sort of benefit that would override the competing FH or Burst Mastery.

The more I reflect upon it, with 3 full trait lines I think it would be extremely unlikely to see any viable warrior build not run Disc (Even if there was an Rabid-based build where Arms, Defense, and Tactics would seem like the right choice, I think overall the build being created there would give up Arms or Tactics for Disc).

BUT, its all up in the air, as we aren’t even aware of what sort of Specialization is in store for our profession. I am extremely curious about what they come up with…

Tbh, I don’t think looking at what other classes are getting is a good approach. All I’m personally interested in is:

1. All classes are fun to play (and play against)
2. On the whole, all classes are balanced against each other with viable counter builds/play against any build other classes can bring to bear (i.e. no hard class counters, only build counters)

It doesn’t much matter to me (as a warrior) if other classes received lots of nice things as long as it brings them closer to the above two goals. Unless it gives them some sort of crazy class advantage over others, then I don’t think any changes to other classes are required.

The FH proposal is about the first goal. Being locked into Discipline and, to a lesser extent Defense, unnecessarily makes warriors less diverse, which is less fun to play and less fun to play against. It seems a relatively trivial thing to fix that without any appreciable power creep, meaning it doesn’t threaten the second goal.

That Mesmers, for example, got 6 traits baselined seems irrelevant to me from a balance perspective because they look like very good changes, imo. The Chronomancer line will probably require some balance tweaks, but we’ll have to see.

Those tweaks shouldn’t constrain the entire class, just like the fear of Shoutbows that don’t have to take Discipline (if FH were baselined) shouldn’t be the justification for all warriors having to take Discipline.

Yeah, FH is pretty indispensable. Another build that doesn’t use CI is a gs/r build that’s 6/2/0/0/6. It has no sustain, but it hits hard.

The new trait system will drop soon, and that should give you more options that don’t use CI.

Sebrent.3625:

@Choppy:
Sorry, this to two your post earlier on this page (#9) … been away … 3rd child was born … was rather busy (still am).

Fast Hands baseline is a power creep in that:

• A build that already took Discipline now gets Fast Hands and whatever new trait replaces it as a minor trait in Discipline
• A build that doesn’t take Discipline is still gaining Fast Hands

It is a power creep. How much is debatable.

This is why when I’ve discussed choices for the sake of “ease of balancing”, I’ve mentioned the change being made followed by additional balancing around it as I think some may be warranted whether you made it baseline or simply removed from the game.

Congrats. Yes, I know it’s technically a power creep, but a very minor one that’s easily mitigated if necessary.

Regarding the extra minor trait, just be mindful of what you replace it with. For example, you could pull the might off of Versatile Power and put it in place of FH. That would be a net zero change as far as an extra minor trait goes if still traiting discipline.

Regarding being free to choose other trait lines instead of everyone running discipline, that’s exactly the goal and hardly seems like a power creep anyone should be concerned about. Frankly, the idea that class balance is achieved by railroading people into otherwise poor trait choices seems like an indefensible point of view.

Discipline would still be a good trait line if FH was made baseline, and an optimal choice for several different build types. But it wouldn’t be compulsory like it is when FH is tied to it, and so more warrior diversity could be achieved by making it baseline without any appreciable class power creep in relation to other classes.

Excessive power creep that resulted for specific builds would be better addressed through specific build balance fixes.

Personally think a shout build would be better for you in every respect except cc. More damage pressure and more ally support too. Plus, it would address the condi problem you’re having.

Aomine.5012:

Choppy.4183:

You’ve made an argument? All I’ve seen is incoherent babble.

Having reading comprehension problem is really quite sad…

Dw, I’m very nice and caring about disabilities.

“You have yet to refute any of my points as to why “good traits that most people pick” should be an excuse for baseline or minor traits, despite this same logic applies to 90% of the classes . You only quote the most unimportant part of my post and rebuts NOTHING. ronpierce.2760 already pointed out the case for Necro, and I already pointed out the case for Ranger. There’re cases of Arcana and Water for Ele too. There’re cases for thief grabbing the new Deadly Art and Trickery too. There’re cases for Guardians to grab the Mediation and Virtues too. If all of them are so “mandatory”, then we may as well remove traits already and make them all baseline. Oh, if you don’t understand what I’m talking about, it means you really know so little about other classes and the balance, that you only live in your little Warrior world.”

Try going back and understanding the arguments before you comment on them.

I disagree with where you landed with FH because it doesn’t deal with the more pressing build diversity issue, but your EtP fix at least reduces the dependency on Defense which does helps a bit.

I have high hopes for the physical skills, personally. They’ve made them into a solid alternative to shouts and stances, and should provide a viable path to skip both Healing Signet and Cleanisng Ire too (especially if EtP actually dies go baseline). Hell, even Rampage may see more use outside of PvP.

And the small changes to Signet Mastery may even give us another good utility choice.

True, they didn’t change much about how warrior works and wet still a highly telegraphed class, but the payoff if you can work within that seems in balance when compared to less obvious classes.

I actually think Anet’s done a very good job overall with their changes. Just a couple of tweaks would be great to help the diversity problem.

You’ve made an argument? I’ve seen nothing but accusations and total misunderstanding of the points ans arguments others have presented.

Aomine.5012:

I did make an argument, you guys just totally ignored it because it is against your mind-set of “infinitely buffing Warrior”.

Buddy, I saw your posts about this in the Ranger subforum and they’re being dismissed there too.

You’re starting out with false conclusions only to create a greater cluster fail with every post. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you can’t be bothered to understand what’s being discussed before you start slinging nonsense.

Gotcha. My bad.

On the sigils, FH allows the second set to proc 5s sooner once during the whole of combat. That’s not a powerful advantage, it’s a footnote.

Seems to me condi hybrids are already borked with the newly announced Condi changes combined with the need to get all traits from gear now (plus the impending changes to cele). I haven’t thought about it a lot, tbh, but I don’t think it’d be an issue.

Assuming it would, does funneling all warrior builds to trait 1/3 discipline to balance the potential for power creep of one type of build structure sound sensible to you? Don’t you think adjusting specific traits or weapon effects specific to that build type would be a better way to balance than pushing them into an otherwise suboptimal trait line for the sake of one minor trait?

If your last comment captures your concern, it seems like there’s way more direct ways to solves your problem with less collateral damage.

ronpierce.2760:

Using Disc means a ridiculous loss in damage (arms) or no cleansing ire or no shout healing. You definitely don’t gain in the same way as having FH baseline, which also opens up for 4 sigils which is a large part of what makes Fast Hands so crazy outside of just better efficiency. And the new arms line is pretty solid. The sword trait and GM minor alone would be huge dps boosts from the standard shoutbow people run now without having to lose Cleansing ire nor FH.

Are you saying Discipline is otherwise an otherwise weak trait line? You’d pretty much have to be saying that if you want to claim warriors would become much more powerful if they didn’t need to take it to get FH.

Also, how does FH give warriors an advantage with sigils? Swap sigils are on 9s cooldowns.

Aomine.5012:

Because the Top class and the “must have” + “most used” class in any PVP team need MORE direct buffs to make it viable (chuckle). There’s no give and take here, just straight buff buff buff.

Shockingly most of you guys agree to have more power. The greed of the top class is really endless. I sometimes make a list of improvement at the absolute bottom class’s forum, and the result is they mostly reject the changes and think the current one is good enough.

Let us know when you’re finished with your hissy fit. Go ahead, take a minute to collect yourself.

Perhaps once you do you’ll realize that if the “absolute bottom class” is telling you things are fine and rejecting your “improvements”, it’s probably because they, like us, see pretty clearly that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Feel better now? Good.

Aomine.5012:

Warrior’s logic:
Because a trait makes us OP, it should be baseline/minor because we’ll take it 100% time because of how OP it is.

What measure are you using to determine warriors are OP? We already know that practically all warriors run FH and most run CI, so… are you finding warriors routinely beat you senseless? Is that what this is about, big guy? Lol.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Nonetheless, you have to explain to me the difference you make between “must-have” and “too good to pass up” because to me, if the involved reasoning may differ, the consequence is exactly the same : you have to take it….

What bothers me is regarding the adrenaline gain : warrior needs adrenaline in sPvP, it’s a core mechanic of the class. That’s why making Embrace the Pain baseline seems like the best idea to me.

Currently, if you don’t take CI, most of sPvP builds become unviable (i.e Shoutbow, Hambow), so I wish we’d have an alternative.

Water and sex. One you need to live, and the other one is water. That’s more or less the difference to me.

The importance of CI even in pvp is somewhat obscured by the stats that come with it: toughness, power (through Armored Attack), and healing power (to a lesser extent). Dogged March is also an important stop along the way.

After the trait changes (apparently coming sooner than expected), we’ll see how important CI is without the associated stats. Similarly, we’ll see if builds that don’t trait Defense can become more viable through different gear selection and if the separation of traits from stats will open up new vulnerabilities in our opponents.

Anet has already scheduled improvements to our condi clearing in the new traits. That somewhat decreases the opportunity cost of not taking CI. The adren generation thing is a bit harder to predict, but I do think CI will prove to be valuable rather than indispensable for that.

I’m still in support of making Embrace the Pain baseline, but recognize that may mean the amount of adren we’d have to generate for a burst will have to increase if that happens.

I already identified the cost/benefit in point 7. Making FH baseline would mean:

1. Warriors get one additional minor trait, whether on the Discipline line (the slot currently occupied by FH) or on another trait line, and,

2. Fewer warriors would be running the Discipline line, which is the goal

Is one additional minor trait THAT much of a power creep? Or are we now saying Discipline is a weak trait line that offsets the benefit warriors get from FH when they trait it?

Or can people finally acknowledge that focusing on how powerful a trait FH is, and thinking of it as some sort of power-creeping gift to warriors (who all currently run it anyway), is completely wrong headed?

ronpierce.2760:

You’re having a simple discussion and I’m giving you a simple statement that it would be a terrible change, and it’s very obvious to see the pro-warrior buff bias in this thread when the only alternative anyone is willing to accept is the one that baselines it for just the warrior, anything that could nerf it is instantly written off. This isn’t a simple discussion about build diversity, its a buff bait and little else.

I wasn’t particularly successful with several pages ago, but allow me to walk you through it:

1. The issue is build diversity
2. Practically all warrior builds run FH, from direct damage, dps, tank, nascar, whatever
3. This limits diversity, especially so when HoT drops and all warriors run 1/3 Discipline
4. Making FH baseline would lead to fewer warriors traiting Discipline
5. Removing FH would lead to fewer warriors traiting Discipline
6. Warriors are not overpowered now, even though all warriors run FH
7. The difference between post-HoT warriors with FH baseline and what’s currently scheduled is one additional minor trait and fewer warriors traiting Discipline (the goal). FH is on every warrior either way.
8. Everyone agrees FH is a powerful trait. If all warriors run FH now and they aren’t OP, then it follows that making FH baseline will not make warriors OP
9. It also follows that removing FH will mean warriors will be less powerful and possibly underpowered relative to other classes
10. Removing FH would therefore require a broader set of changes to make warriors more powerful and/or other classes less powerful to maintain the balance that currently exists, whereas making it baseline would not.

To your proposal that all classes get it:

1. Non warriors currently have 10s weapon swaps (excluding engis and eles)
2. Warriors with FH (all of them) are not currently OP relative to other classes
3. FH is a powerful trait
4. Giving all non-warrior classes FH baseline represents a significant power creep, except for engis who already have instant swap via kits (or no swap, if no kit)
5. With this power creep, all non-warrior classes would have to be made less powerful (excluding engi) and/or warriors (and engis) more powerful in order to restore the balance that currently exists.

Aomine.5012:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Let-s-push-traits-into-Baseline/first#post5136441

Just want to see your reaction.

I think you’ve failed to understand the argument.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Regarding CI though, the problem is : no matter what you do with it, it will always stay a must-have trait.
Because the thing is, I do agree that making CI a minor trait would be really nice but it wouldn’t solve the problem of build diversity as everyone would still be forced to take this line. So, sure you could still take another trait and it would be a good start in making this traitline better but honestly, I doubt that any other trait is going to be worth the sacrifice of taking this whole traitline I mean look at the traits we’ve got the choice with : none is going to be “build making”.

No the real problem is the trait in itself, maybe they should tone the cleansing part down a bit to even things out, I don’t know.

It’s not a must have trait now, just a really good one. Even your recommendation to tone down the cleansing suggests that it’s a “too good to pass up” trait rather than a “must have”.

How important it is depends on (a) how many conditions you’re facing vs alternative cleansing mechanisms, and (b) your opportunities for adrenaline generation. Some dps builds don’t use it (e.g. a variant of the roaming a+sh/gs and that Vaans gs/r build). Lack of food in pvp and, well, shoutbow, mean CI’s pretty much always run there though.

Still, making Mending a traitable physical skill and the more advantageous positioning of Brawler’s Recovery in the new trait system will reduce the condi incentive to take CI when HoT drops.

Then there’s the proposal to make Embrace the Pain baseline, thereby removing the adren building value of CI (Juba’s option 3). There’s no reason to think that will happen and, if it doesn’t, it means CI will continue to have a lot of value in that regard. But, as mentioned, you can make some viable builds now that don’t have CI even though it’s relatively more valuable than it will be under the already-announced new trait system.

Hammer has aoe cc, longer stunlocking, and better damage. Gs brings the mobility, and is supported by hammer (or mace), on 100b.

I don’t fear the Reaper. I have it on good authority the new warrior weapon will be a cowbell.

Hear that Reapers, we’re gettin’ MOAR COWBELL!

I see a number of builds that would be viable without discipline if FH was baseline, personally. Even my current h/gs roamer could skip disc if it wasn’t tied to FH and crit damage.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Choppy.4183:

I believe they also said the numbers on gear would be increasing a bunch as well.

those would be primary stats (power, precision, vitality and toughness) which does not include non standard secondary stats (condition duration, boon duration) so yeah this is not acceptable.

I was responding to this:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

removing stats such as vitality, power, toughness or precision may be fine to a certain extent, since they will be buffing the base stats somewhat, from 926 to 1000 and is just a 74 points increase in each stat, and a total of 296 increase.

really a pathetic amount if you ask me, since we get 300 points increase now by simply maxing out a trait line.

unless all the pvp amulets will get 600 points increased, we’re all getting nerfed hard in the stats.

They’re apparently increasing the numbers beyond where they are now through gear changes, in addition to increasing the base stats to 1000.

As I mentioned in another post, we don’t know if Anet’s changing the base durations of boons or condis yet (afaik), but warriors are in the same position as everyone else there.

Considering how integral condis and boons are to the game, I can’t imagine they intend to nerf those things gamewide while giving buffs to direct damage;. It just isn’t in keeping with what they’ve ever done, so the concern is probably premature.

I believe they also said the numbers on gear would be increasing a bunch as well.

The thing is, regardless of specific things that appear to be getting weaker, warriors and everyone else are getting more powerful with the trait changes.

Besides, every class is being setup for boon and condi durations in the same way, iirc, and we don’t know if Anet will be changing the base durations for the skills or not.

When the new content drops, a Strength-Tactics-Discipline build running FGS, might sigils, runes, and food along with Phalanx Strength could be a hilarious (and viable) might generating machine. XD

Something like this, maybe: http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AggB5ARcBbQ~

Wouldn’t be the most optimal solo, of course. But you’d become the Oprah Winfrey of might stacks with allies around you…. “You get might stacks, and YOU get might stacks, and YOU get might stacks…. EVERYBODY GETS MIGHT STACKS!”

Might be awesome. <yuk yuk>

CC with Fear? If so, possibly Berserker Stance. Otherwise, no idea.

@Sebrent
I don’t know, man. Maybe it’s just a comprehension issue rather than anything deliberate because you again misrepresented what I said about opportunity cost, you bungled up the red herring bit, and made a number of other errors in your last post about what I said.

Combined with the other errors, maybe there’s no sense in carrying on the conversation.

@Sebrent
Your whole line of argument that other classes would benefit from having lower swap CD is irrelevant:

1. They don’t have it, yet viable builds abound
2. Afaik, none of them use Warrior Sigil, so presumably the pressure isn’t that high
3. Viable warrior builds without FH do not abound
4. Warriors with FH are not imbalanced against the other classes you mentioned
5. Giving those classes FH would be incredible power creep because they’ve already been balanced without it
6. Baselining FH to warriors will not lead to considerable power creep, especially after the new content, because warriors have already been balanced with it (and they already have it)

This is why we’d laugh at anyone who said stealth is powerful, especially on thieves, so warriors should get it too while otherwise remaining the same. And this is why you’ll get no traction with the argument here.

@Sebrent
Go back to every time you’ve used bullet points to point out “contradictions” made by other people. You’ve misrepresented what was said.

How do you know your build is viable? Have you tested it yet? Because I’m fairly certain it would get wrecked by most builds out there. It has lower damage and sustain than classic shoutbow by a lot, you’ll be stuck in an inappropriate weapon for longer, and you suffer from the same weaknesses shoutbow has.

Put another way, people will find it easier to kill you and you’ll have a harder time killing them.

It was a shameless red herring argument because making FH baseline and developing builds that aren’t shoutbow aren’t mutually exclusive or even contradictory things to do. Besides, how do you know people aren’t working on other builds? Juba has videos out there of builds he runs, and I haven’t noticed shoutbow being among them. I don’t run a shoutbow either, but more because I don’t spend a lot of time pvp (more wvw).

You’ve yet to demonstrate that warriors are viable without Fast Hands, you’ve simply asserted it. Those who say they’re not have provided evidence (no current builds lack Fast Hands) and logic (if warriors aren’t OP with FH now but it keeps them locked in discipline, then giving them FH without locking them in Discipline won’t make them OP either). You’ve not come close to meeting that standard.

Your understanding of opportunity cost is wrong because you assume no value to the other two traits . I’ve explained, repeatedly, that making FH baseline amounts to a refund on one trait point and a reduction of build rigidity. That’s not significant power creep.

And I don’t think Mesmers should give back IP, and I’ve made that clear. In my previous comment I was applying the logic you applied to why warriors shouldn’t get FH to mesmers. By your rationale that I quoted, mesmers shouldn’t get IP. I don’t agree with your rationale.

You evidently don’t know what a strawman argument i if you think what you described is a strawman.

Also, what’s with the pity party for mesmers. Mesmers are awesome and their burst is incredibly good. If you main a mesmer and don’t know that, you have a serious l2p issue because getting those bursts aren’t that hard. Giving them IP was a good idea, nevertheless.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

a quicker weapon swap only leads to faster combo chains and using up cooldowns quicker too making it base line would quickly drain you of any weapon skills leaving you without ether or weapon set being on cooldown yes you could burst chain quicker with fast hands but that does not mean it should be base line.

what if a warroir took weapons with longer cooldowns and wanted to not Use fast hands because it could mess up his rotations burning through skills too quickly leaving him with only lower cooldowns and a larger window untill the next spike, i understand that Fast hands is good but it is build defineing not widening diversity as it can effect other builds just as much messing up play styles.

Lol, wut m8?

Sebrent.3625:

Heck, now even those arguing for FH becoming baseline are contradicting each other.

• Some say it is really powerful and they need it because of that.
• Others say it isn’t that powerful so it shouldn’t be a problem if it’s baseline.

You’re misconstruing what people are saying. You’ve done this more than once to different people, usually by presenting it as a contradiction laid out as above. One might say you’re deliberately strawmanning.

Sebrent.3625:

• FH is not necessary to be viable….

Fast hands is awesome. That’s why so many take it. But there is a big difference between awesome and required.

Required would mean you were unviable without it … just like people were claiming before with the adrenaline changes.

You have yet to demonstrate that warriors are viable without Fast Hands. The evidence is against you here, and it’s been laid out several times by others.

All you’ve provided in support is one incomplete build of your own making that will get wrecked, not just by other warriors, but pretty much any other class too.

Sebrent.3625:

Many of you claim you want FH made baseline so that you can have more build diversity, but ff you really wanted more build diversity for Warriors, shouldn’t you be thinking of ways to dethrone the Shout Build since it is the meta build Warriors are pigon-holed into for both sPvP and WvW. Since not a one has focused on that, I’m unconvinced that “build diversity” is the true goal … or that FH is the solution.

This is a shameless red herring argument.

Sebrent.3625:

Giving it for free is power creep … getting something extra is something extra no matter how you play with the words. That extra results in extra power; however much it is. That is power creep.

Power creep to the extent of one refunded trait point now, and not having to choose discipline later. That scares you? I guess Mesmes should give back IP then… I mean, they ended up with the exact same power creep and, as you pointed out, they didn’t even need it (as evidenced by mesmer builds that don’t take it now).

NikeEU.7690:

Yep, though I really think if you go Strength runes you want Lemongrass to avoid condi hell. But if you ever want to yolo strength runes, + fried dumplings would be 8.25s might stacks from GS crits.

And two might from every crit. Combine that with Phalanx Strength in a party with someone else providing condi clear and… wow.

@Cygnus
You just described exactly why I moved from gs/a+sh to gs/h, though zerk still works well enough for me , personally. Still, the axe is very effective… possibly better in 1v1 situations unless the person doesn’t know how to dodge hammer (axe auto is insane), but definitely inferior in outnumbered situations.

As for sword, I actually run a different trait layout with a warhorn and gs that has insane mobility and works pretty well in disorganized group fights but, yeah, I personally have to go back to h/gs in more serious fights or when I need to speed flip camps (30s). I haven’t tried it with the might stacking though.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Choppy.4183:

Besides, warriors already have Fast Hands. Making it baseline doesn’t give them the gift of shorter cooldowns, it gives the gift of greater build diversity.

See, that logic makes no sense to me. I’ll use Ranger for my example. Every WvW and PvP build after the trait changes will need to take Wilderness Survival for traited condition clears. Either Empathic Bond or Wilderness Knowledge. So since we will all need to take that trait line to get one of those, if we want traited condi clear, why not just make one of them baseline? It would certainly give Ranger the gift of greater build diversity.

Compare the difference between warriors today and warriors if FH was made baseline. What’s the difference between their cooldowns? Nothing, because they all trait it now.

Arguing against making FH baseline on the grounds that shorter weapon swap cooldowns are great is a bad argument, because shorter cooldowns are constant either way.

The question is whether or not they’d be more powerful if they didn’t have to trait into discipline to get it. Clearly additional powerful build options would emerge, but no more so than you can get through the discipline line. All that gets unlocked is greater diversity.

I’m not familiar enough with rangers to address your question, as it’s one of two classes I don’t currently play. I can’t imagine two traits are a ranger’s only condi clear options though, and I can’t say I’ve ever heard anyone complain about a lack of condi clearing power for rangers.

@Sebrent
Look again. I didn’t assume any such thing when describing the opportunity cost, I said it was the value of what wasn’t chosen minus the value of what was.

You seem to be thinking of the cost as the number of points you have to invest in order to get the trait as though the traits along the way had no value. Moreover, with the new trait system it’s not that at all… the cost is, “what did I lose out on by choosing discipline, vs what I gained”.

If warriors are compelled to choose the Discipline line for the one trait (which is what most people are telling you), then the cost is high to them from the perspective of build diversity. If they were going to choose Discipline anyway because it’s optimal for their specific build(s) independent of FH, then there’s no cost for them.

If warriors will have Fast Hands regardless of whether or not it’s made baseline, then what is the sense in not making it baseline if the result is simply less diversity among warriors? In what way do warriors become more powerful if they aren’t compelled to take the Discipline line on the strength of a single trait?

Also, if all warriors (that we know of) trait Fast Hands now, and warriors aren’t presently overpowered, and every warrior here has said not traiting Fast Hands would make them underpowered, and you haven’t been able to find a build that doesn’t trait it, and the build you put together was unoptimized (and soon to be proven unviable, I think), what additional evidence do you need to show that warriors would be underpowered without Fast Hands?

And no, we don’t agree that this shouldn’t be discussed until after the final warrior changes are announced, and I already explained why. I said arguing against it makes little sense, particularly because we’re not talking about an increase in class power just a reduction of build rigidity.

Also, in what way was Chronomancer a class redevelopment? Additional options and theme, sure, but no redevelopment. The overhaul to traits, pulling out attributes, restricting builds to three lines, reorganizing the individual traits… that was a redevelopment, and a very good one, imo.

I think the might stacking could would work with Juba’s gs/s build (leads into Final Thrust) or an Eviscerate from an axe. A sword is probably the best choice to pair with it, not just because of FT but also because it goes so well with Arms generally. You can justify putting in the extra point for Attack of Opportunity, and Flurry supports the gs as well as FGS supports Final Thrust. Plus the ridiculous mobility.

But with a mere 5s base from FGS you’re not going to keep that might for much longer after swap… maybe only 3s after having cleaved a bunch of people with 100b immediately before, so you need to hit that burst quick. For that reason, you’re not going to get a huge amount of gain when paired with a hammer, imo.

Again, I’m not saying it’s a dog, I actually think it’s a very good build. But I believe the numbers bear out that Str is more optimal than Arms in an h/gs pairing.

As for conditions, my build actually has better management than yours only because I have Lemongrass as the food whereas you have omnomberry. I pesonally think you’d be better off running Fried Golden Dumpling though for the extra might and boon duration buff.

I agreed from the top that the CD reduction is good, but it’s not much of a dps gain for the gs, to be honest. It’s more utility. And Slashing Power certainly doesn’t help the Hammer at all, but the 200 extra power plus an intelligence rune sure does!

Also, I downed three guys via one Reckless Dodge last night! 2.5-3k each!

@Sebrent
The only cost to Fast Hands now is one trait point (for the actual trait), and the forced build rigidity it requires (currently a three point investment, though with the new content, a full trait line).

Put another way, the cost for Fast Hands is the value you would have gotten if you’d invested elsewhere minus the value you got investing in Discipline. This is called opportunity cost.

If all warriors are running Fast Hands now, then the gain to warriors from making it baseline is solely the opportunity cost and this has nothing to do with the value of the trait itself. If that’s not clear, consider warriors now and after Fast Hands is hypothetically made baseline… both have 5s weapon swaps.

So what does that opportunity cost look like? Well, it’s currently the net value of one more trait point (likely, but not necessarily a minor) and the glorious chance to explore a more diverse set of build options.

Once the new content drops, which is when something like this would go into effect, it’s simply the chance to not choose Discipline and still be viable. Discipline is still a very good traitline, so the net gain in terms of power is not going to be that high in relation to other players, but the quality of life for warriors now able to run greater depth of builds will be considerable, even just counting what they’ve already revealed.

I don’t think Embrace the Pain would lead to much power creep (look again). I actually think it would be a good idea to make it baseline, but its importance is less than Fast Hands because there are other traits, utilities and fast striking skills with which to build adrenaline. Still, I favour making it baseline.

We don’t have all of the information yet, but we do have 5/6 of the traitlines revealed and we already know the skills for all but one of the warrior’s weapons. We also know that none of the classes that have been revealed have been radically redeveloped. That’s quite a lot of data to work from, frankly.

If you want to take the position that maybe Anet will release something that will make Fast Hands less important for warriors, fine, but know that cuts both ways in that your argument against is rendered moot because you have no idea that they will.

Rather than take a “wait and see” approach, Juba (and others) have rightly brought the issue forward so the devs can at least be exposed to the reasons people think Fast Hands should be made baseline, consider it if they haven’t already and then either do it, don’t do it, or do something that meets the need without resorting to the proposed solution.

You arguing against while maintaining we don’t have enough information makes little sense, tbh.

Lol, I was pretty ambivalent about making Fast Hands baseline when I started, mostly because, as others have pointed out, Discipline is a good trait line and I don’t mind dipping into it.

But after realizing pretty early on that:

1. As far as anyone seems to know, all warriors currently run it, therefore
2. Making it baseline wouldn’t really make warriors any more powerful (especially with the new trait system), just more diverse

Moreover,

1. Everybody seems to agree that warriors aren’t overpowered now, even with FH
2. Everybody agrees FH is a powerful trait that no other classes have, therefore
3. Warriors evidently need FH to achieve their current power level, whereas other classes do not

Sebrent is basically engaging in a standard gish gallop. Also, that shout build… who the hell traits Spiked Armor with power that low? lmao. Maybe it’s for killing ambients?

@Juba and @Julie Yann
I’m with Julie in that I don’t see Warrior’s Sprint being made baseline. Further, I don’t personally think it’s needed as warriors already have two weapons with great built-in mobility , as well as access to permanent swiftness (for self and allies) if we want it.

I also don’t think we need Embrace the Pain to be viable like we need Fast Hands, but it wouldn’t hurt, it wouldn’t lead to a lot of power creep given how many people run Cleansing Ire currently, it would take pressure off of CI leaving it as a very good condi cleanse, and it would certainly fit thematically and mechanically with how warriors are built.

@Sebrent
The reason most people don’t believe you have much experience with a warrior is because none of your arguments are based in class mechanics, but in 1. warriors get invited to all the parties, and 2. other classes would like to have Fast Hands too.

You could make your own non Fast Hands just by working with a build editor for a while. Then take your warrior into PvP or Wvw and see how it goes. It didn’t take me long at all to pick up shatter mesmers, or kit engis, etc, so it shouldn’t take long to figure out if your non FH build is viable against other classes.

I gave two reasons tied to the burst mechanic why FH is important for the warrior (proper setup, and having the right tool for the job), and Juba and Sil have you more.

Condi warriors need to swap a lot because their two primary damage condis are on different weapons. Lack of Condi diversity (cover conditions) is one if the things that limits condi warriors. Slow swaps means your condis will get easily cleared and, even if they don’t, damage output will plummet. It’d be like putting kitten swap counter on kits and weapon for Condi engis… it’d be brutal.

Regardless, your argument is awful. You’ve ignored the point that making FH baseline doesn’t increase the number of warriors running it or power generally, you’re just fixated on the notion that warriors should have to pay some sort of pennance in the form of build rigidity because they’re invited to the parties you aren’t.

Your argument is literally now, “they should have to pay because nobody can prove to me they need it”. You don’t accept that it’s needed even though all warriors run it despite the cost, and you refuse to find or make any viable builds (in relation to other classes) that don’t use it. Even of warriors were seen as overpowered (they’re not), you wouldn’t have a point because we’re talking about a trait they all have anyway.

U jelly. That’s about what this comes down to.

Because the value warriors bring to the zerg isn’t their personal viability but the buffs they bring to the whole. It’s like getting invited to parties because you always bring booze, not because you’re particularly awesome.

Maybe you’re not familiar enough with the warrior to know how to make warrior bursts obsolete, excluding longbow… dodge when you see the big telegraph, blind, daze, stun, fear, block, or evade. With any one that has a movement component, add immobilized, chill, and cripple. For longbow, don’t stand in the fire field.

For all of the above, excluding longbow, you’ve not only mitigated the burst effect and put the burst in cool down, you’ve also forced the warrior to start building up adrenaline again from zero.

Fast Hands ties into the class mechanic because most F1s either require a setup skill or they are the setup skill. Also, most classes have all of their Fkey options available to them all the time, whereas warriors have to be in the correct weapon at the right time to even have a shot at using it.

I’ve challenged you to find a viable warrior build that doesn’t use Fast Hands, and finding one can include making one yourself. In an earlier post you were talking about build geniuses that can make anything work, and now you’re playing the opposite side saying nobody is willing to step outside of the box. Make one yourself, if you like, but you’re making excuses for a point you evidently aren’t able to support.

And, again, making a trait baseline that all warriors feel compelled to use (without being overpowered as a class, I might add) doesn’t increase power, it increases diversity. Leaving it as isdoesnt change the fact that all warriors already have it, which is why most of your argument is missing the point.