Guild Wars 2

Pretty sure he was making funny.

Khristophoros.7194:

For MH sword (as a primary damage set) you’d want both arms and strength.

I don’t buy the argument that your crit chance is “already” high enough. That means you’ve invested heavily in precision in your gear. The trait is the same as 420 precision so that’s 420 stat points you get to allocate to another stat. But that’s just in theory. In reality the stat combos limit how well you can take advantage of this. That is why I’m saying as a hybrid weapon the available stat combos aren’t working for it and that’s why it’s not viable as a main damage set.

Because all attributes suffer from diminishing returns to more you invest in them, with power having the lowest curve (due to the way the damage calc goes). Putting 420 precision in when crit chance is 10% isn’t the same as putting it in when crit chance is 70%. I happened to have zerk gear from pre-patch, hence Blademaster isn’t bringing much to the party relative to what I get from Strength.

As for running Arms and Strength, sure, that is definitely the most damaging option and I’ve actually done that too (right after patch). But there’s no way anyone should give up Discipline unless they planned on camping a weapon set (bad idea), and that would mean giving up Defense (in my build). Arms doesn’t bring as much to the table as Defense, imo. But the damage potential is undeniably higher with both Arms and Strength.

Khristophoros.7194:

Another thing to note is the attack speed and crit chance have some effect on your condi application but the damage traits do not. So they should be good traits for hybrid.

Oh and you get 33% bleed duration from arms as well.

In spite of all those things to benefit a hybrid sword build I don’t feel like it’s viable.

I don’t see how FT would be that great when all the gear is condi primary. This weapon really reads as “hybrid leaning towards power” to me.

The bleed benefits don’t help my build, which is why I didn’t factor them into the calcs. I should have factored in the +5% damage against bleeding foes though.

There’s no denying that the sword’s greatest damage potential comes with a hybrid setup, so if you want to camp swords exclusively then that’s the route to take. The gear I recommended all has power as the secondary attribute so it’ll still hit hard. I haven’t done the math to know where the breakpoint is in terms of optimal balance between condi and direct damage, but if it was too heavy into condi damage, then you could work in some zerk to get to the optimal spot. It would bring more ferocity into the equation too.

The problem with the damage potential that comes from sword bleeds is more to do with its reliance on long applications of one condi in the current meta, imo. Everyone and their dog has enough condi clear to wipe out your stacks, thereby killing your dps. But that’s not anything to do with warrior trait changes.

Getting a base of 4 bleeds per hit on the auto that run for 2s would be better than the 1 bleed for 8s it has now by a lot, whether running hybrid or condi.

Honestly though, it’s still an excellent weapon even if it’s not the best primary damage dealer.

Khristophoros.7194:

So yes, you’re only using it as a utility weapon to support the GS.

If MH sword was your main damage set you would want arms, so the point of my thread is that it’s obviously not viable to use for your main damage set because either lack of the right stat combo or some other factor.

Right… but you’ll notice in the post I linked I’m choosing sword over a more damaging weapon because of the utility it provides. In much the same way, I could choose a ranged weapon over a more damaging melee weapon because of what it brings. I’m also not camping my gs because the gs has it’s own limitations that the sword can partially cover.

As for damage, Arms still isn’t better for MH Sword from a straight non-condi damage point of view , even if you’re ignoring your other weapon set for some reason.

Arms:

• Blademaster (+20% crit chance)
• Dual Wielding (effectively +15% damage, assuming you’re not running shield)

Strength:

• Stick & Move (+10% damage)
• Berserker’s Power (+20% damage)

I run Pack runes, so combined with SoR I already have about perma 70%+ crit chance. So the marginal benefit from having crit chance go up to 90% doesn’t really isn’t worth more than the extra 15% damage at all times, especially when factoring in the Intelligence sigil that I’d normally be factoring in. And again, that’s ignoring that I’ve got another weapon set that wouldn’t benefit from Blademaster (and likely not Dual Wielding either) but would from what I’m getting out of the Strength line.

As for playing the sword the way you want to, consider using Sinister gear or taking Signet Mastery (which is amazing) and switching in some Carrion gear. You’ll have lots of power and should be able to get crit chance to wherever you want while still maintaining high condi damage. All you’ll be lacking is Ferocity, but you’ll still crit hard with FT.

Also, when you’ve reached an average crit chance of 50%, or just above, look to investing in other stats besides precision. The extra bleeds on crits (and from crit sigils) help justify going above 50%, but it won’t be long before you’re better off with something other than precision.

Khristophoros.7194:

How can you even begin to justify not taking arms with MH sword? 20% crit chance and 15% attack speed. It’s completely insane not to take it.

Pretty easily, actually.

I put Intelligence sigil on it to ensure the FT burst, and Berserker Power, might stacking (from GS on the other set), Reckless Dodge and Stick & Move completely outclasses anything I’d get in the Arms tree. We can do the math if you don’t believe me… it’s not even close, especially if you’re factoring in the second weapon set.

As for how I’m using sword, FT is pretty huge burst. The rest of the skills bring important utility, and only the auto comes across as underpowered. Sword doesn’t have to be the most damaging weapon we have in order to be a good weapon.

I use MH sword pretty much like this guy, and it works very well, even though it’s not the primary damage set. But it brings a lot to the build.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Vid-The-SwordMaster-WvW-Roaming/first#post5342496

Some people run it, but I don’t think it’s optimal. If you’re thinking about it for the Axe Mastery trait, don’t. Berserker’s Power would be the superior trait to take.

Pretty much my build exactly. Same traits and gear anyway, though I usually put Frenzy in there for the giggles. Some nice game play in there too.

@Ilias
While axe is clearly better from a potential dps point of view, imo it’s inferior when roaming precisely because of the loss of mobility.

Sword 2 is the best skill we have to sticking to a target trying to kite us, allowing more opportunity to actually deliver damage (this help offsets the weaker damage potential of the sword vs axe). Flurry is also useful for setting up 100b against some opponents, and Final Thrust almost as hard as Eviscerate and it actually cleaves (at the cost of twice the cd).

Being able to Sword 2 out of bursts (e.g. when out of dodges), kite melee opponents while focusing someone in a group fight, or just plain escaping are huge advantages too.

I’ll often switch to axe in a duel, but when roaming I’ll generally take sword.

I’ve been using quickness and similar gs tricks in duels, and it does indeed work fairly well. Don’t like the setup for roaming though.

Yeah, but Taunt → Kill Shot would beg for an immediate nerf.

As a warrior fighting a warrior running that spec, I’d be kittened because it would be an easy to execute mega-hit that I’d have to burn my limited stubbreak to avoid. For other classes, it’d be an unavoidable death sentence.

WhiteOil.1836:

answer this simple question why play a squish warrior when you can play a squish thief or mesmer?

That’s a separate question that has nothing to do with a loss of toughness through moving attributes away from traits.

Koolaid.9152:

Wait what happened to Rampage?

Rampage: Lowered the duration from 20 seconds to 15 seconds. Increased the recharge from 150 seconds to 180 seconds.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-July-28-2015/first#post5327591

I agree with Majik. Having an overused OP skill conceals the underlying problems that still need to be addressed.

eksn.7264:

Defiant Stance (30s CD)
Stance. Heal yourself. Taunt foes around you and absorb all incoming damage for a short duration. If you heal for more than 50% of your health, you become weakened.
Initial Self Heal: 1,853
Taunt duration: 3 seconds
Defiant Stance duration: 3 seconds
Weaken duration: 6 seconds

That’s a very interesting set of changes to a heal I normally forget even exists.

Nomad.5204:

A shout idea I had would be a skill called “Get back here!” Think of it as kind of like an anti- fear that would force kiters to run towards us instead, so we can do what we were meant to do and smack the kitten of them.

I feel like this would greatly even the odds against classes that kite us like rangers mesmers engis, etc..

Any thoughts?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taunt

@Show
It still wouldn’t fit my play style, but who knows?

I get what you’re saying thematically, but I don’t actually want much fear as a warrior outside of an “Oh kitten!” button, tbh. If I was running shouts (I usually don’t), the last thing I’d want is to send enemies away from my weapons every time I used a utility.

I’m actually much more interested in Taunt, tbh, and I predict the Berserker line will give us access to that (possibly a little Fear too).

I’ve had Rangers trap me in 2s of Taunt while they Rapid Fired me…. I’d like to turn the tables so my greatsword can go… “OM NOM NOM NOM! FEED ME MOAR!”

Sword is actually a pretty good weapon, imo. I’ve been using MH sword in Wvw for weeks now (roaming and havoc), and dual swords can work well too.

That burst is key though. It’s so much delivered at once (along with volley) that it can put someone down immediately. Like a mesmer or thief who just popped out of stealth. For that reason, I’d say it’s the better choice against a single target (but I wouldn’t camp on the weapon).

I’m not sure which comes out on top in terms of overall dps against a single target.

Lol, it was just one of those posts that walked the line of “genuinely frustrated player” and “classic troll baiting out the class defenders”. Enquiring minds had to know!

Paavotar.3971:

Widebody.5071:

On My Mark should be more of a roar/shout that also causes 3 sec. stuns with a 20 sec . cd.

No animation and instant 3 second stun with1200 range you can do even if you are stunned or disabled with 20 seconds (untraited) cooldown. Sounds fair enough.

Lol, and it should distribute beer and pizza to all allies within range too….

His post history suggests he’s just distraught about not being able to do what he thinks he ought to with his ranger. A number of people in the ranger subforum have already suggested he’s got a l2p issue.

My offer still stands to show him how to fight warriors in wvw though. He should at least recognize the enormous advantage he has in an open field fight. But, yeah, if he’s a poor player and a competent melee warrior closes the gap, he’s gonna need his pet to help him retrieve his longbow from his rectum.

Lol, are you serious? That auto stability is on a 90s cooldown and the only other insta-cast stun breaker doesn’t grant stability, procs when damage drops below 25% (not on cc) and is on a 60s cooldown.

Also, if you managed to get a full rapid fire off, not only did you do way more damage to him than his retal, you should have more than closed the gap in health pool. Also, that retal isn’t 100% up either, it’s 33.3%

If you’re staying in melee on your lb with a hammer(?) warrior, you’re doing something very wrong

Also, are you sure he didn’t just reflect your rapid fire? I do that to pew pew rangers all the time and it would account for the damage better than retal. It’s amazing how many just stand there and eat it instead of cancelling the skill.

I almost wish the traited block came with a “Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!” audio.

In all seriousness though, you have a lot of tools to deal with what you’ve described. Feel free to pm me in game and I’ll show you a few of them.

Keep in mind the base armor difference between warriors and thieves is only about 150. That’s not nearly as valuable as a single attack mitigated with a blind

Good luck!

It could be ok if mending was better. The might is too short to be useful to TTL and using the HS active is too situational and infrequent to justify taking the trait

You can actually make a perfectly viable power build using arms, with the gm trait only being so-so. It’s just not optimal.

Even for condi builds though, Arms is sub-optimal due to FH. Release the beast and Arms will see more use from both condi and power specs (and hybrid, of course).

But, yeah, I wouldn’t cry if SM became a strength adept trait. I’d run a lot of valk or carrion gear too, depending on my weapon comp. It’d be a significant power increase though, imo.

Sounds frustrating. If you’re getting locked down by hard cc (stuns, knockdowns, dazes), make sure you have balanced stance at least and try to get a guardian in your party for group stability. It should probably be enough, but you can add more stability or stun breaks if you need them from there.

If it’s immobilize that’s catching you, you should probably have brawlers recovery, warriors sprint, dogged March, condi food, and (if in a big group) traited warhorn. If you get immobilized, use a movement skill or swap weapons. If you and your party are caught, use wh4. Otherwise, it’ll be brief anyway. Then there’s shouts with trooper runes too, I suppose.

Good luck!

Gs/ham can still work well in Wvw roaming and havoc, but the mobility is less than it was pre-patch and you don’t have a lot of defense against ranged pressure (which is a bigger worry now). On the plus side, the dps on the gs is much higher now, especially when combines with quickness.

You’re on Blackgate though, and I have no idea how much roaming and small group stuff is done there. If it’s all zerg all the time, you’re probably looking at h/s+wh. In T2 and below, I know a number of organized havocs have been dropping warrior out of their comps in favour of mesmers, thieves, and eles, mostly, sometimes guardians.

As I understand it, h/gs has been the main warrior build that’s had any traction in pvp, but some have said it was carried pretty hard by Rampage. If true, due note that the. Rampage CD was increased and the duration was decreased yesterday.

You’ll probably appreciate that warrior can still hit hard without the fragility of a thief. But you may also be frustrated by the relatively fewer opportunities warriors have to make someone eat that damage and to shake aggro when you’re focused, when compared to your thief.

Whether warrior will work for you really depends on your playstyle.

Disagree with you pretty strongly there. Afaik, we have some of the best personal cc defense in the game.

In fact, I almost have to think you’re joking about immob given just about every warrior can break it with a movement skill, a weapon swap, and/or has duration cut significantly. Plus, stun breaks don’t work on immob….

Especially because warriors wouldn’t have a faster weapon swap… it would stay exactly the same that it is now. Making FH baseline would do exactly nothing to the weapon swap speed that every warrior already has

@ithamir
Just found his comment weird given it takes less than a minute to check if it’s true. I wasn’t making any broader point beyond that.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I forget that the majority of that sub is PvE players.

I can actually sympathize with pve players who’d react against anything appearing to be a buff to warriors. Not because they’re right (they aren’t), but because at least one warrior is almost always guaranteed a place in a dungeon group whereas others will get booted.

Nobody likes it when someone who has an advantage asks for more.

That a baseline FH probably wouldn’t affect the warrior dungeon build at all (might on swap still synergizes with PS) likely hasn’t occurred to them.

rchu.8945:

DHawk.2687:

yes it was a trait, WAS
now it was standard
and with the increased power due to the patch it was too strong
accept it

would you rather have 4 bounces and the base dmg cut in half??
my god one nerf and you are already crying for a buff

Since June 23 patch, how many nerfs have Mesmers received? I think more so than other classes.

What an odd claim to make.

This is the only one of the two patches since June 23 in which any changes were made to the mesmer class. Most of the changes made to any class in either patch have also been labelled as bug fixes, which can hardly be seen as “nerfs”.

And have you even read through the gains and losses the different classes received on June 23?

Did the arguments against tend to fall along the lines of “warriors are already OP”, “that would be an enormous power creep”, “why shouldn’t my class get it too”?

It’s incredible how many people forget that every warrior they’ve come across in the last couple of years has had FH, and it’s not as though the Discipline line is a wasteland otherwise.

ASP, there’s a difference between range and long range.

The sweet spot for MB is usually just outside of the reach of melee classes but still close enough for you to get the bounces and to enter melee range when you’re ready to shatter. At least, that’s how I’ve been using it.

That there’s an option to do a fair bit of damage to a cluster of enemies from range when it’s too hot to go melee is just icing on top of a pretty sweet skill.

In principle I’m with you. Having high damage hits doesn’t help you much when they’re easily avoided or you’re too… dead to deliver them.

I generally think risk:reward is the guideline that should be used for these things. For example, I think a melee warrior vs a melee ranger, the ranger should either have more damage or more evades to even things out. Put a ranged weapon either of those classes, and the damage/evade should decrease proportionately.

Same goes with thieves and mesmers… the issue there is mesmers can burst/stealth like thieves, but with way less risk (plus they have more utility). I.e. the risk:reward balance between them is skewed.

For warriors, we definitely lack effective mitigation, and I’d personally be willing to give up some damage for it. Or for better counters to others’ mitigation, maybe (more unblockable, temp blind immunity, etc). Though I think that would improve the class, how much should be given or taken should be done within the context of risk:reward across all classes/weapons.

The thing is, if they won’t fix pretty clear bugs like ES and BC, and will seemingly arbitrarily nerf the warhorn on thematic grounds, I really don’t see this sort of rework coming down the pipe, tbh.

Btw, not sure if you saw it, but on another thread I proposed giving more of our weapon skills the the dual use mechanic that Riposte, Counter Blow, Impale, etc. have. To me, that’s the best approach to achieving what you want without sacrificing damage out of the gate to get greater utility. The reason is you then leave it to the player to decide if they want to forego the big damage for something that’s more situationally valuable.

You could use that mechanic to inject evades and other mitigations, reduce telegraphs (in exchange for damage), enable more weapons to support a direct damage and condi builds, etc.

Caedmon.6798:

One question for you guys,do you think Signet Mastery is in the right spot? Do you ever trait for or make good use of Restorative strength ?

Imo, the only reason to think it’s in the “wrong” place is that it gets way less use than it otherwise would because FH is pulling us into Discipline for every viable build.

Signet Mastery’s about the only thing that tempts me into the Arms line (and I don’t currently run Arms). Considering even optimal condi builds don’t typically run Arms, it’d feel like raiding the line for it’s only treasure and then leaving it in the dust.

If FH was made baseline, though, I bet Arms would see way more use, though. For condi and direct damage builds.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

I don’t know, I still enjoy playing Warrior in pvp. My build is all knockdowns, and really the only reason I run rampage for the additional kd. The only classes that still infuriate me are Mes and Engi. (Some Necros)

Just think anet wants war to stay in the middle of the pack.

The thing about this proposal, though, is it wouldn’t represent much in the way of a power increase for warriors, it’d just allow us greater flexibility when creating our builds, possibly allowing us to find more roles to fit into.

In a perfect world, all classes would be in the general vicinity of each other so the difference between being in the top or bottom of the pack wouldn’t matter so much.

Taking it in isolation, sure, it looks like we need a heal buff to equal rangers. But, overall, I find rangers have less going for them than warriors. I could be wrong as I don’t have a ranger, but I’ve sure squashed a lot of them with my warrior.

Comparing warrior heals against each other is way easier though, and HS obviously dominates.

Well, I’m on record ad nauseum in support of making FH baseline. There’s just no reason not to do it and lots of reasons to go for it.

With respect to an OP combo with whatever comes out of the Berserker line, it should be trivial to adjust that one line to fix whatever problem exists. There’s currently no issue for the existing five lines that I can see.

One of the great things mesmers have going now is trait synergy (not perfect, but very good) with no real mandatory lines. I’d love to see the same thing for every class.

@Loxsus
The comment you quoted is in contradiction to your post. Mesmers can’t be both “perfectly balanced” and need immediate trait fixes along with a “wait and see” for future changes.

@apharma
Fwiw, and probably not much, most people in the warrior subforum generally agree that Rampage should be toned down. It’s relatively simple for a mesmer to kite, but some classes are practically sitting ducks. It’s not an I Win button, but a damage reduction is probably in order.

About the biggest opposition to doing that is from people concerned that Rampage is the only thing keeping warriors relevant in PvP. I have no idea if that’s true or not.

I’ve not noticed anyone who mains another class come into the warrior forum to complain about it, or about warriors being OP in a long time. The calls for Rampage reduction appear to be coming from people who main warriors, and nobody there has said people just need to l2p against it.

Also, burn guards are a problem that, afaik, are supposed to get scaled back. Looks like an oversight on Anets part to me. I don’t think that’s an l2p issue either.

Bull’s Charge doesn’t remove immob, despite the tool tip. I think I may have had issues with Rush too, but am not certain about that. BC for sure.

@apharma
Not at all. I didn’t say his evidence was strong but, then, how much evidence should he have to post to demonstrate what many people have already noticed- that there are a lot more mesmers running around since the patch?

The OP, and others, have subsequently reasoned that this increase in mesmer population is due to the increase in power they received with the patch. The OP was clearly also implying that mesmers are currently too powerful relative to other classes, using his screenshot to point to the increase in population/frequency of mesmers.

His evidence only carries him to “there are more mesmers running around”. If you don’t disagree with that, then you have no quarrel with the evidence he’s provided. Seems to me people are more taking issue with his reasoning, not what’s shown in the screenshot, yet quite a few are wrongly focusing on the screenshot.

There’s nothing he could have posted to conclusively demonstrate that mesmers are overpowered. His reasoning isn’t bad though, it’s just not conclusive. At least he’s submitted some sort of evidence to the question, whereas those who think mesmer is perfectly balanced haven’t provided any, afaik.

(FYI, I don’t count you as one of the people who thinks mesmers are perfectly balanced, and my original comment on this thread was clearly not directed at you, but at people dismissing the OP on bad grounds)

Loading.4503:

Main hand torch, just cause, you know it’s anet

1 – generic auto attack with 1 stack of bleed in the end for 1 sec
2 – throw your out torch, but instead of anything related to fire, 1 stack of poison for 1 sec cause lol, who would’ve guessed poison
3 – put out your torch making smoke, but ahah gotcha it’s not a smoke field, it’s going to put 2 whole stacks of torment for 1 second

Burst skill – stand in one spot to kindle a campfire cast time will be 5 seconds, aoe vuln, add in stacks based on adren

You fool! They haven’t announced yet… what happens if they read your post and think, “that’s WAY better than the poison/interrupt/mid-range craziness we had planned!”?

Gah! You ruined everything!

(But yeah, nicely done)

Fay, anecdotal evidence isn’t just an individual anecdote. If what you meant with your original comment was, “your one example isn’t enough to make a compelling case”, then fine, though it’d be a weirdly obvious point to make.

But, yeah, anecdotal evidence isn’t what you think it is. Your entire understanding of the game, including all of your experience with it, is anecdotal evidence and you clearly have no issue bringing that forward in your arguments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

@apharma
Don’t get me wrong, that you bothered to do some math is undeniably a contribution to those discussions, and more people should take the time to do it.

But the OP posted a screenshot as evidence of “the current state of mesmers”, however limited that evidence is. There’s not a lot of math that needs to be done there, and the point will inevitably be made through anecdotal evidence, at least at our level.

But his evidence was subsequently dismissed as anecdotal (as though that necessarily invalidates it, which it doesn’t), even though many others (possibly people who’ve discounted his evidence, I dont know) have referred to FotM mesmers without controversy, which absolutely supports his point. Your math does too, to some extent, you’ve just gone the extra mile to identify specific corrections that should be made.

^^ all good advice, but careful with rampage. A mesmer can easily kite this and/or mitigate the big hits via blinds and distortion unless you catch them by surprise.

Definitely. And you were absolutely right to point out that some classes are more affected by the increased damage than others due to the extent in which their mitigation is dependent on toughness.

Warriors should remember this the next time someone from another class says warriors are OP because of their heavy armor and large health pool. It’ll happen…

Vitality too. In fact, the same principle applies to all attributes in gw2.

Not to take away from the post, but don’t discount Death from Above in Wvw too much. Beyond trolling people to follow you over cliffs they probably shouldn’t, you can jump from the top of gates onto siegers for all sorts of hilarity and jump on them from cliffs too.

I once heard in Ts of someone that was stalking a newer player on our server, I went to the cliff above them where this was happening, DfA’d them into the base of the cliff, stun locked them with a hammer before they could recover, then 100b, whirlwind, and AS ftw.

Setting those things up isn’t as hard as you might think, bit I understand if people don’t want the trait.

I don’t know the exact stat combo that will squeeze the most juice out of lb these days, but I can say with certainty that anything that buffs your might (and applied vulnerability) counts for double on a weapon like a traited lb.

You probably already knew that, but it’s all I have to offer.

Also, zerk stance can help with blinds, your weapon range is greater than the radius of a blinding powder field so positioning can help, and use your auto to clear a blind.

Both classes can be tricky for a warrior to fight. Of the two of them, a well played mesmer is the trickiest. Fortunately, there are a lot of poorly played mesmers atm… still dangerous, but not impossible.

EDIT: Also, I have trouble believing TDM defeated 3 conpetently played mesmers (or even thieves) post patch. Definitely don’t feel about about your own skill here, just keep working at it like the rest of us.

Dev time is a resource the dev team will manage, and they’re the ones with large scale data, not us. They also don’t take direction from us, though I’m sure occassionally listen to what’s being said (at least custserv people like Gaile Grey probably do).

My point was simply the people discounting contrary pov by dismissing evidence as anecdotal aren’t recognizing that largely, at best, their own evidence is anecdotal as well. The purpose of a forum is to discuss ideas, and those ideas don’t require a massive amount of evidence in order to be discussed.

Case in point, most people accept that thieves were a hard counter to mesmers pre-patch. I’d be surprised if anyone could point to a large scale analysis and dataset that supports that position, yet it’s largely accepted, afaik. Accepting, dismissing, and basically just discussing something like that doesn’t require a massive evidentiary case beforehand, and that happens independent of a process that allocates dev time. Unless, of course, a problem has people a so kittened off that it elevates the business priority of a fix.