Guild Wars 2

@apharma
Said what wasn’t overpowered? PU? Mesmers? I think I’ve been pretty clear about my positions regarding both.

And, no, Anet makes the changes it does with (I suspect) the best possible motivations. But releasing them into the wild is how they find out the implications of those changes because there are way too many variables for them to predict how things will play out. They’ve just released a massive overhaul to the trait system and it appears mesmers have a number of things about them that are out of balance with the other classes. They aren’t the only class with OP aspects, but they have quite a few.

Nobody has said mesmers need to be completely reworked, people have called for general and specific balance adjustments that in no takes it outside the “region” (whatever that means) of where they are now.

@denis
You could focus on that one aspect and ignore the rest (like me outfighting thieves, warriors, etc with much higher skill than me, dishing out enormous damage from relative safety in group fights, etc), and generally misconstrue me surviving party wipes as something it wasn’t, I guess. Whatever gets you through the night, sweetheart.

You could also dismiss PU as a defensive trait, I suppose, ignoring that extra defense on an otherwise offense build is what allows you to sustain dps. It’d be consistent with you thinking a warrior Healing Signet = “god mode” sustain, so, clearly you have a good handle on cross class game balance…. lmao

But hey, keep living in denial, i guess. I predict rivers of salty tears from you when the Nerfbat eventually hits if you think the current state is actually balanced.

@apharma
A couple things about your line of reasoning here. First, by that rationale Anet always understands the implications of the changes it makes and everything is deliberate, which is an unrealistic expectation. But if it were true, they would never need to make “balance changes” unless they consistently change their mind about what they want. Either way, your “that’s what Anet wants” falls apart.

As for the reasons for changes, I’ve already provided them. In the PU thread, I provided specific reasons tied directly to the proposed rollback on one aspect of one trait. In this thread, I’ve been more general, pointing out broader balance problems (e.g. the ability of low-skill to trump high skill based solely on class), leaving specific “fixes” to people with a better handle on the class (like DaShi).

At no point have I said, “Mesmer needs to be nerfed now because I say so!”, and it’s disingenuous for you to say otherwise. I’m in the process of transitioning over to mesmer right now… if I was the sort of person you seem to be implying, I’d be one of those people claiming mesmer is balanced and everyone who says otherwise be hatin’.

@Daniel Handler
It’s not just a matter of a boost to damage output, it’s also the relative risk to deliver that damage. As an example, I typically main a warrior and I’ve been playing it zerk for about two years now.

As you say, post-patch every zerk build I run has higher damage output than it did before. However, due to a number of changes related to relative mobility, ranged spike in other classes, and the conditions needed to deliver zerk warrior damage, there’s relatively high risk for reward.

With my zerk mesmer, damage is cranked up too. But the conditions needed to deliver that damage, and then to shake aggro to set up for more damage delivery, are considerably less risky. The means more opportunities to deliver damage, and therefore much higher dps as well.

@DaShi
With respect to the singling out argument, even if things were equal between thieves and mesmers in this respect, the argument should be, “yes, reduce PU stealth for mesmers” and “while you’re at it, [make this specific change] to thief stealth too”, not “leave PU alone”. All the latter does is make the problem worse.

That said, I find mesmer stealth more problematic in wvw than thief stealth. It’s easier to use, is harder to predict (as an opponent), is combined with a greater number of other defensive bonuses, is on a class that can apply significant ranged pressure, and then there’s the whole “let’s port in the horde” issue.

DaShi.1368:

The problem is that most of the suggested nerfs want to destroy the mesmer or push them to the margins of competitive play.

Below are some changes that I feel will keep the mesmer strong where is always has been, but reduce its ability to be so strong in all those areas at the same time.

<bunch of proposed changes>

I haven’t seen many people calling for specific changes at all (short of the PU thread), and I haven’t seen any evidence that anyone wants to push mesmers to the margins.

However, based solely on experience, mesmers are in very real jeopardy of having this happen unless specific fixes are made. Eventually the chorus of people calling for nerfs grows, and the nerfs that come tend to miss the mark and hit way too hard.

Mesmer’s a tricky class to get right, and it’d be very easy to break it through imprecise nerfs. The best thing people who understand mesmers and balance in this game can do is identify the specific changes that are needed before the mobs bring the torches and pitchforks and gut the class completely.

To that end, I personally appreciate your suggestions. I’m in absolutely no position to validate them, so defer to more knowledgeable mesmers.

DaShi.1368:

I have a hard time justifying nerfing PU. It’s not good in PvP, except for 1v1s, which isn’t what PvP is about. It’s very good in WvW, but so are thieves’ stealths, rangers’ range, guardians’ retaliation, and warriors’ sustain. There’s no reason mesmers should be singled out there. It has some situational uses in PvE that I wouldn’t like to see disappear because it makes the mesmer a useful alternative when you don’t have a thief.

Maybe you can explain this argument. If the reason PU isn’t good in pvp is that long stealths aren’t advantageous, and so it’s not worth taking the Chaos line over other lines to get PU on most builds, then how does pvp factor into any decision about whether or not to reduce the stealth bonus from PU?

In wvw, how does the fact that thieves have abusable stealth support the notion that mesmers should have it too?

StickerHappy.8052:

This is so wrong. Hard counters should be “an equally skilled or almost equally skilled (10 to a 9.5) player will have a greater chance to kill you because of a class mechanic” Otherwise, there would be no point if he is less skilled, he will never beat you if he is less skilled, if he does then i do not know what to say. That logic that thieves hard counters mesmers is true BUT, assuming this is equal skill. If you pitted me against a D/P thief more less skilled than me? (i.e. He is 7 and I am a 10) Goodluck to that thief.

If you still believe on your argument, Create a thief and fight my shatter mesmer. I am expecting you to win most if not all matches.

Exactly. If someone wants to take the position that a build for one class is a hard counter to an entire class, regardless of massive skill imbalance between players, they’ve already conceded the balance argument.

Some people are being way too defensive about mesmers here. There’s been very little “OMFG nerf mesmers now!!1!111”, but if you can’t recognize the faceroll that mesmers have become relative to most other classes then you’re in the bubble. That doesn’t mean they’re immortal, or that other classes/builds can’t provide some challenge or even be favoured in some fights, but some balancing is clearly called for.

@ASP
I didn’t say one mesmer build facerolls through everything no matter what, I said a condi mesmer rolled through very competent thieves despite the mesmer having practically zero experience on a condi build, having just slapped a build together seconds before without any guidance, and without fully understanding what the different skills did.

I’ve also been running power shatter in wvw and, there too, it’s been a faceroll relative to other classes despite my low skill level with the mesmer. This is immediately obvious to anyone used to other classes who are now running mesmers, evidenced by the massive spike in the wvw mesmer population since patch.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Condi mes was a thief hardcounter before the patch. If you played mes more you’d of known that -_-u

I don’t think you’re fully appreciating the skill difference here. I still had to look at my skill bar to figure out what to do next and wasn’t sure where the burns and bleeds were coming from. That I haven’t played enough mes to know condi mes was a hard counter to thief should be evidence enough that I have no business dominating them without breaking a sweat.

Even for a hard counter build, that’s ridiculous. Further, I doubt I would have had nearly as much success running a condi or hybrid warrior against them, and I actually know that class very well. Finally, I’ve been wrecking pretty serious face in wvw, considering how bad I am, using a PU shatter build.

ASP.8093:

DrDivine.5378:

it’s about on the same skill level as other classes now.

Err, good?

I mean, every class should be a class worth playing, accessible to anyone who likes the general style and flow of it.

The way to show off your skill level is to win, not to play trashy stuff.

No, it’s considerably worse than that. I made a condi mesmer in a private arena today (no idea if it’s a good build or not, I slapped it together) and it was insanely easy to repeatedly beat two very capable thieves in my guild.

As mentioned in the other thread, I’m trash on my mesmer. Also, I hadn’t played a condi build since leveling my mesmer in the 30s-40s about a year ago. There’s no way that anyone that’s practically new to a class should be rick rolling over capable players.

And to address the “maybe you’re just better than your guildies”, one of them steamrolled me on my main just before I brought the mesmer in. After that, I lost two matches of maybe 20.

I have a PU zerk shatter going in wvw. It’s not as easy as yours, but not far behind. Much easier than any warrior build I’ve ever played by far.

No mesmer hate here either but I can tell you my guild is already looking at removing warriors altogether from organized havoc, and we’re one of the most laid back, play what you want, guilds on the server.

Group stealth, group sustain, and massive burst are the skills on order these days, at least for small group to zerg busting. Warriors don’t have the get in, burst, get out that they used to, even though burst is better now.

Sword=Greatsword for mobility now, more or less. Someone ran a test race and it was very close.

It’s true. I’m in the process of developing my mesmer skills and I have my eye on Mantra interrupt for when I can take off the PU training wheels.

Honestly, my experience with mes over the last few days is I don’t have to work nearly as hard as I do on my warrior to get good results. I anticipate better cc on the mes than hammer warrior.

And I’m trash on the mes…..

And mantra mesmer is becoming an invaluable part of organized havoc. Mesmers have a lot of options as far as fun and useful builds go, which is an enviable and awesome thing.

@ASP
You need to run with a better class of people for all the reasons you mention.

Necrotize.2974:

But you lose other things. Still in the chaos line, you lose one of mesmer’s few sources of Stability+some other boons, or you lose the ability to call and take down one target with an organized attack. Doesn’t really matter if you live forever with PU if you’re not doing anything to support your team other than summoning phantasms. Sure you can devote your other two lines to dps, but that also means you aren’t running Inspiration and thus probably have no more than the Torch trait(which from my experience only really works well on The Prestige anyway) and a single utility slot to deal with conditions. If you want to build to have high damage and PU, you’re not gonna have much in the ways of condi removal and you certainly won’t have any supplemental healing effects should you get caught by an engi or ranger running reveal skills. Especially with all these burn builds, running Inspiration is not only great for your survivability, but also helps your team as most of the traits apply in an AoE.

I think you should play it again because you seem to have a distorted sense of how it is (maybe it’s different than it was before, I don’t know). It’s definitely not a selfish bunker build that just stays alive for it’s own sake.

First, it’s a shatter build, not a phantasm build. My shatters were doing about 2.8-3.2k aoe fairly frequently. In addition, I was still doing quite a bit of damage using the other skills on gs and sw, including constant ranged pressure from the gs when I wasn’t prepared to enter melee. That’s a fair bit of damage contribution for the party, not as high as capable mesmers more tricked out for damage, but reasonably high compared to other classes. Then the 10s party stealth through MI is a massive contribution if used at clutch times (plus it’s traited for me, so only a 72s cd).

The build definitely doesn’t need stability with two stun breaks on reasonably good cd on the bar, plus the other defensive tools. As I mentioned, I beat back-to-back hammer warriors with ease and their skill levels with their class was higher than mine (they weren’t amazing warriors, but competent for sure). Both also used Rampage, the cc-rich elite that’s generally considered too OP to use in duels (which these weren’t) and even has some warriors calling for it to be nerfed (it’s actually not that OP imo, and I don’t run it on my warrior even though I have it traited).

For conditions, I had the traited torch as well as a traited Arcane Thievery. I’ve not once had to use AT (I always forget about it) and have yet to die to conditions. The ability to shake aggro (in a group fight) was the primary line of defense, with food and torch being sufficient to manage condis otherwise. Having AT on the bar if I actually did get hit hit with a condi bomb would help tremendously.

neptunechild.4831:

I play all classes and I definitely feel your pain. .Pre-patch I ran a GS/H warrior and I had so much fun roaming. Post-patch is a nightmare for warriors. Movement nerf alone hits warriors hard. GS/H is hardly viable as b4 cuz before patch I can run a rather tanky spec with very decent dmg but that doesn’t work anymore because of the trait line changes. I have yet to find a viable roaming build for warrior so yay back to my PU mesmer.

I ran my PU all this evening and killed a competent warrior running h/gs followed by another using h/lb without breaking a sweat. Both used Rampage on me, and both died. Then an engi, ranger, etc, etc. One guardian manhandled me pretty well though.

I’m still trash on my mesmer, but this build is faceroll easy to play. The amount of work required to kill people is tiny compared to what I’m used to, and escape is instant and perfect.

If changes aren’t made, I predict a lot more mesmers running around the battlefield soon, and there are already way more than before.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

No one used PU before the buff because it was completely unreachable. You HAD to lose either IP or DE, both of which are absolutely necessary for shatter builds. Now, you hardly even need DE! I think this could go back to where it was just fine and people would still take it.

I’d tend to agree. It probably wouldn’t get a build named after it (i.e. “The PU Mesmer”), but it’d still be a reasonably good trait that would work for some builds and playstyles.

denis.9487:

Torch is 30 seconds. The trait is not a flat increase. Decoy is 40/32 base veil is 90 mi is 90/72. Desperate decoy competes in the dueling line plus prolly would cause reveal since hard to use/time. So how are these not long?

Um, because they aren’t. Compare that with the OP super-sustain warriors you were mentioning… a stance warrior is mostly looking at 60s CDs (with no reduction trait), and that’s largely what you’ll find in wvw, at least small scale. Oh, and not only are you visible the whole time, a little icon (plus the attack effect) tells your opponent, “hey, just wait a few seconds and this mofo’s out of utility for a minute!”

Honestly, when I was rolling tonight there was almost no time that I didn’t have a stealth, an evade, a port, a stun break, or a dodge at my disposal. That’s amazing.

Damage output was also strong and consistent, and escape was always an option. I had shatters and high damage skills available pretty much at all times and they were way easier to deliver, so add low cd burst to the mix and you get a damage pumping machine that has enormous defense going for it. Frankly, I’m surprised you aren’t saying, “sure, we’ll take the nerf on PU, just don’t look at this other stuff”.

Lol, ok. How about you run a warrior in Wvw exactly how you think it works and see if your results are as good a mine with PU mesmer. Best of luck.

@Denis
Lol, really? Where does the amazing sustain come from in a Wvw setup? I mean, it’s not really on topic here but I’m positive you have no idea what goes into playing a warrior with a comment like that. And don’t confuse me challenging you on this point as me saying “poor warriors, mesmers are so OP” because I don’t think I can say much more than I have here and on the warrior thread to show that’s not my position.

@Daniel
You misunderstand me. Baiting out defenses is part of the game, and a really important one. The unbalanced counter play was the important part there, and recognizing that I was responding to, “you just need to learn how to anticipate bursts”.

Also, the torch and utility stealths on mesmer aren’t on particularly long CD, and they aren’t the only defenses. I’m not complaining about that, but let’s keep things in perspective here.

Because it was obscenely easy with PU? Because being easy to land bursts doesn’t mean I’m going to if I’m dead, which would be expected when I’m still learning tricks? Lol, why ask questions with obvious answers?

You’re fooling yourself if you think warriors have better sustain than mesmers in Wvw. Shoutbow in PvP, certainly prepatch and possibly now, sure. But Wvw? Lol, not a chance.

And you’ll note that, despite that, I’ve specifically advocated leaving mesmer core advantages alone, both here and in the warrior thread you cited.

So, provided you can sneak up on a PU mesmer and have a way to deny them their skill bar, all good? C’mon, that’s not a l2p issue… that’s back in “use a stealth trap whenever you see one” land.

As for sunflower’s list, add havoc and small group Wvw, which applies to all Wvw tiers. Packs of 5 plus mesmers are becoming increasingly common, not all to do with PU, mind you, but at least a couple will trait it to great effect (all could if more stealth is needed, kinda like how a lot of mesmers only equip portal when they need it). I agree that mesmers as a class, no matter how OP they appear to some, should not receive core nerfs while things are in flux. But holding off on making a specific change to a specific trait, that will have no core impact on the class but will alleviate problems in at least some aspects of the game, is silly.

Further, the notion that one OP trait should be left alone because another class has something OP is nonsense. This is a thread about PU specifically, other things needing a fix has no bearing on whether this thing should be fixed.

@subversion
You make it sound like mesmer is a challenging class to play. While it certainly used to be, and it probably has a higher skill ceiling than some classes in regards to optimal mechanics, it really isn’t that hard. Burst delivery is easy peasy, at least in anything beyond 1v1.

It’s a great class with fun mechanics, but assuming people who main mesmers have some sort of special personal ability, to anticipate and mitigate bursts, that other players lack is just fantasy.

Somebody already gave the example of using short CD mesmer bursts to bait long CD mitigations in other classes, interspersed with long stealths that prevent counter bursts. That’s not an l2p issue, that’s an imbalanced counterplay problem. Sure, fighting stealthy thieves sucks, but they’re mostly on a tether that allows more counter play.

As a point of correction, zerg is not the purpose of Wvw, it’s the long standing tactic that has emerged within Wvw for obvious reasons.

Lol, he’s not right when he tries to claim your logic as mine as proof of your point.

As for the usefulness of PU in PvP, you can fight with the other people who’ve said the opposite in this thread in an effort to diminish the importance of the buff and to claim no nerf is needed.

Are you saying you’re using PU in pvp and that you have trouble positioning without it? For realz?

@Denis
I don’t know how to make a post easier for you to understand. But, swing and a miss, buddy.

• Because long stealth doesn’t bring a benefit in PvP.
• Because nobody is negatively affected by long stealth in pve.
• Because zergs are immune to long stealth mesmers and will want time warp (or moa for driver ganking lulz)

• Because small to mid scale Wvw is the only place it matters either way (though it could be utilized to cheaply undo serf ppt gains pretty easily too).

If the latter doesn’t matter, then you should have no objection to cutting the stealth buff because it’s irrelevant in any place that does matter, by your logic.

Afaik, nobody has proposed taking stealth away from mesmers. It remains an integral component of their defense.

Also, this thread is just about PU. If people want to expand that to mesmer balancing as a whole (where to buff, where to nerf) a new thread is probably in order because it’s a way more complex question.

@apharma
In the interests of not having an ever-longer post, I’ll try to speak generally about some of your posts instead of responding point for point.

On other classes’ stealth
Yes, other classes have stealth on demand but not for nearly the duration. A PU mesmer could effectively exit any fight at any point now, instantly. Shadow Refuge and any stealth that requires smoke fields give a tell to identify where the character is and where opponents should apply damage pressure, that they’re still in the area, etc.

With PU mesmers, this isn’t the case at all. They can completely remove themselves from a fight or gain significant tactical advantage easily and without a tell as to where they are. This makes a big difference from a counterplay point of view. Sure, thieves are slippery and tough to deal with (especially when traited), but the tells on most of their stealths allows an opponent to know where they are and know when to expect an attack (and where) if it’s going to happen. That’s massive.

Fair point on SR. I should have compared it with an SA thief. Still, MI is more valuable in a fight without question, providing an instant stealth for 10 people no matter where they are.

On me being a crappy selfish mesmer
Crappy, yes. Selfish, no. If I hadn’t gone PU I would have dead (because of the crappy part) and, therefore, contributing little damage pressure. The 10s MI also helped several times, sometimes allowing us to turn around fights immediately. Even mid-fight, my ability to shake aggro was so strong (and easy) that I could mostly focus on applying steady pressure and regular bursts in a way that would have been impossible even with my main (warrior), on which I actually do have some skill.

On mesmer clones and defense
You (and others) have downplayed the value of clones in combat and the overall defensive options mesmers have, and I have no idea why. Mesmers have plenty of great tricks that contribute to the fun of playing the class.

The fact that most mesmers aren’t running PU and are still one of the more dominant classes in wvw outside of zergs atm should make that clear to anyone. To be clear, I don’t think it’s a problem in and of itself that they’re more dominant now, but clearly they aren’t defense-poor without long PU stealths or else they’d be dead in this much deadlier post-patch world.

That’s a good thing, so why be coy and downplay these defensive advantages? Just to keep a buff to stealth that most mesmers pass up in favour of other advantages?

And, remember, I’ve already said changing PU to +2 would probably be alright, but would have to be tested, and agreed that more stealth counterplay across the classes is a good idea.

denis.9487:

You keep posting then editing or taking down words. Your magical claim to nerf a trait is because you ran it in wvw and your party died and you survived. I have been around and around this bush with you. The constant changing of posts, posting contradicting posts in different forums just proves that you are grasping at anything to justify nerfing a defensive trait. All this time can you imagine if you just went into a dueling arena and actually fought a Mesmer might just figure out that tough nut.

I haven’t changed anything you’ve been commenting on. I just added a bit to my comment to apharma about warrior mobility, basically saying “have fun”. I’m a monster, I know.

My posts aren’t contradictory, you just lack the requisite comprehension skills to understand them.

As a point of clarification, I’m talking about reverting a trait back to where it was two weeks ago, with no complaints then of being underpowered by anybody, or possibly increasing the stealth from where it was then but less than where it is now. I’ve also supported a stealth buff to Veil. That’s not a call to nerf the class, and the very post of mine you quoted from the warrior forum specifically said it’d be better to not nerf the class despite the appearance of mesmers being a bit OP at the moment.

Some of the justifications for the PU reduction include:

1. the amount of stealth a mesmer can generate by simply activating skills (i.e. no hit has to be landed; almost no counterplay) outclasses every other stealth class by a country mile
2. this stealth is stackable
3. the aoe party stealth (MI) has a 1200 radius, affects 10 people, and provides the effective stealth duration of a full Shadow Refuge without the need to stack in an identifiable small area (no counterplay)
4. put 5 mesmers in a havoc, and they can provide almost a full minute worth of stealth to their entire party plus another havoc, creating an insane advantage in combat
5. that same havoc could, in principle remain permanently stealthed without giving any indication whatsoever of their presence on the battlefield or in a structure
6. even one 10s MI is an incredible advantage on the battlefield matched by no other elite (or any other skill) in the game
7. terrible mesmers (like me) can survive total party wipes of actually capable people because the stealth combined with escape is so good
8. the combination of this enhanced stealth plus the regular mesmer defensive advantages (clones, cc, defensive buffs, evades, etc) makes running full zerk shatter insanely easy, whereas other classes actually have to put themselves at risk to go glass

None of the above is in balance with other classes… any of them. Other classes have their own issues, for sure, but clinging to an obviously unbalanced trait buff because other classes might have their own things that need to be adjusted is incredibly short sighted. Rolling back on that trait isn’t a nerf to the core of the mesmer class either, nor does it impede build diversity.

Sykper.6583:

“Just play better, Warriors can beat mesmers just counterplay harder.”

Had a guy in the mesmer forum tell me today that mesmer stealth (even when traiting PU) is balanced and that the counterplay in wvw is a stealth trap…. Lol.

I think most people that main mesmers recognize that things aren’t balanced at the moment, but they’ll also rightly point out that a lot of things aren’t balanced. Frankly, I’d hate to see the same thing happen to mesmer that happened to warrior, basically, demands for nerfs to the class at the slightest whiff of OP, real or not, thereby unnecessarily sucking the fun out of things.

The way I beat mesmers now is catch them when they’re out of stun breaks, cc them, and then 100b them with quickness followed by AS and Whirlwind. 9 times out of 10 they’re dead, but getting into that situation requires a drunk, distracted, or bad mesmer.

I don’t know yet what’s required to bring things in balance, but I’m pretty certain blanket nerfs will make things worse.

By my count, more people have acknowledged PU stealth is excessive than not. I also didn’t post sour experiences, I identified the balance issue both as an opponent and as someone running the trait. That you interpret that as “hate trying to mobilize a movement” to nerf the class says more about you than me.

Stating stealth fits mesmers thematically is not a demonstration that it’s balanced, and we’re just taking about a specific trait here, not the class as a whole. Thanks for coming out though.

I don’t have a ranger, but I’ve heard the opposite. Nevertheless, point being ranged damage mitigation is needed much more than it was before.

What’s the basis for your claim that mesmer stealth is balanced?

@apharma
it sounds like you’re talking about the way things were. You should be able to catch a fleeing warrior with just blink and a greatsword now, if the warrior is low on health and only packing a sword or a gs. If he has both, you likely won’t catch him without travelers, but blink plus stealth (even just one skill) should be more than enough to escape from him if you need to.

In case you didn’t know, speed buffs don’t affect movement skills anymore, and it also appears that run skills (so, every skill but sword 2) took an additional speed nerf. Combine that with the baseline buff to blink range and you actually cover pretty comparable ground. If you can give yourself swiftness, a warrior gs 5 skill won’t even close the gap in combat.

In the old days, a gs plus a speed buff and bulls charge made it really tough for a mesmer to escape, now, not so much. Warrior mobility is significantly downgraded atm and you don’t need PU to escape them or most other classes.

So enjoy the new found freedom, mesmers are no longer a pokey class! Necros are pretty boned there though.

@Necrotize
Stealth traps… lol. Perhaps open field acs too, eh? Actually, wait, if we can use acs against mesmers, we’d better buff mesmers now!! Amirite? C’mon man, you’re proposing stealth traps as counter play to a trait that didn’t need to be buffed in the first place and that many members don’t even use. Lmao

@Denis
I’m at a loss to explain your inability to comprehend those posts. What I’ve written is a matter of public record, same as you. I’ll leave it to others to make up their own minds, but clearly you need to read more carefully.

@denis
How is that being a troll? I disclosed that I’m lobbying to reduce the PU stealth bonus, which I am in this thread, while suggesting the broader concerns about mesmers being raised in that thread should probably be left to ride for a bit.

How could I be any more transparent and sympathetic to mesmers there?

I’ve been running s+sh/gs in T4 and its working alright. The damage buffs have me killing npcs fast enough to get the job done before defenders arrive, and I have a chance of killing most classes.

I’d say it’s overall potency against other players isn’t as good as h/gs was prepatch. But I can’t run h/gs and excpect to live with the mobility changes and buffs to ranged types like pew pew rangers, etc.

apharma.3741:

Squirrelling, you’ve done plenty of that, so answer my questions.

Would any Mesmer without traveler runes have a hope of catching your warrior? What about thief, ele (DD, FGS), ranger, necro, engy and all their large amounts of swiftness?

Would you like to see more actual counters to stealth in the form of 30-40s CD aoe reveal skills so we can have meaningful stealth play?

Does +2 duration sound like an ok compromise? As it would significantly shave off MI, keep veil function and reduce decoy and torch by 1s as well as reduce the effectiveness of the torch trait.

Catch my warrior? Probably not.
Catch a waarior that isn’t running the spediest comp possible? Sure, no problem.
Escape from my speedy warrior build? Yup, can do that too.

More counters to stealth? Yeah, that’d be great. It’s a much bigger ask in terms of work though, and it hardly seems reasonable to use that as a reason to keep the excessive stealth buff on PU. Even with out PU, mesmers have the second most access to stealth in the game. Is the argument seriously, “Stealth is broken and needs more counterplay now! In the meantime, meaner stealth should be greater even though nobody ever asked for that.”?

I already said 1-2 secs would probably be fine, it would just require testing. 1s because it was working before, 2s because I don’t think it would be a huge problem but don’t know. I also said I’d support a buff to Veil unttaited.

Man, you guys sure like to squirrel a lot. Nowhere did I say mesmers should have to run Travellers runes, I said I could barely escape one as a warrior with a full run comp. With regular stealth and that same mobility, I expect those same mesmers could escape me. Besides, aren’t mesmers getting a speed buff trait as a minor when HoT drops?

My mesmer also doesn’t have travellers, and as a noob I survived every party wipe and thief gank without breaking a sweat, while still contributing solid damage pressure throughout fights. That seems right to you?

apharma.3741:

Stealth needs a viable counter, a way to reveal someone who is in stealth

Is that clear enough for you? The problem isn’t stealth, the problem is the lack of a real counter which any decent game puts in. Seriously, think of all the good games with stealth in, they always have a way to unstealth people.

Nerfing PU back to pre patch will only nerf Mesmer escapes to the point they will no longer be able to escape without using MI in WvW. In PvP it’ll just make people run inspiration or illusions line for power shatters as the boons are terrible, removing yet more build diversity.

Mesmers already have more escape/disengage than many other classes without PU, possibly including warrior at this point (I’ve been running gs/s+sh, bulls, full cd reduction, and warriors sprint and I can barely escape from mesmers running Blink and Traveller’s runes, and that’s the fastest comp a warrior has).

Despite that, I’m not calling for thief stealth nerfs. Sure, they have some deadly burst from stealth, but it seems to be less of a problem.

Even still, your argument to leave PU as it is would only hold up if most mesmers were traiting it. If they don’t trait it, they aren’t getting the benefit, and evidently they aren’t finding the thief threat sufficient to meet that threat.

If you want stealth completely overhauled, fine, but you aren’t making much of an argument in support of the PU stealth buff. The issue of “build diversity” isn’t solved by keeping a stealth buff on a trait that apparently most mesmers aren’t taking now, and a buff they apparently don’t need anyway.

ulchanar.4309:

I tried the build with Last Stand instead of Cleansing Ire last night, Sigil of Rage instead of Energy (vigor from Last Stand allows enough dodges anyway), Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance, Frenzy. The high stability and quickness uptime is great and – although I was really doubtful – I didn’t miss CI much.

I’m running this in wvw right now and found the same, there is life without CI (I’ve also run fine without the Defense line altogether). I’m using Bull’s instead of Balanced for the crappy control, and having my one stun break be automatic and on a 90s CD hurts a bit, but it still works. With balanced on the bar it would be pretty easy.

Broski.6209:

For a 1 on 1 build, I suggest using Axe+Shield / Greatsword.
If you want more mobility, you could take Sword+Shield.

The thing about sword is it’s got no control over warriors (who can shake the immobilize), classes with teleports, or anyone with on-demand condi cleanse.

I’m currently using sw+sh/gs in wvw myself, but it’s not the best 1v1 set, imo. But the mobility is pretty important for roaming and small fights.

@apharma
If the extra stealth duration isn’t particularly helpful except in a couple of places (e.g. 1v1), to the point that many mesmers choose not to run it, what is the basis for your argument to leave PU as it is? Also, you do realize that “there are more OP things in wvw so we should leave this OP thing alone” isn’t a very good argument, right?

@Carighan
As you pointed out, running such long stealth effectively pulls you out of the match, which is why most mesmers rightly don’t choose PU in pvp at the cost of better sustain or damage options. We also know that many (possibly most) mesmers don’t run it in wvw, so what is the basis for keeping it? Do you believe mesmer survivability potential is less than other classes unless you have the stealth buff? Seriously?

Other people, myself included, don’t agree with your assessments so we’re calling for a rollback to where PU was a couple of weeks ago, or at least less than it is now because we’re finding it disruptive. Nothing of what either of you have said here make a case for not rolling back the stealth buff.

Further, if we were afraid of “scary mesmers and their clones”, wouldn’t we be advocating for nerfing something a little more core to the class than part of a buff from one trait that many or most mesmers don’t even take? You know, maybe something to do with their “scary clones”?

They could use a tweak or two, yeah. I’m currently lobbying to have the stealth buff on PU reverted to what it was, but they’re overall more deadly without it (most quality mesmers don’t run it in favour of more burst).

I’ve come across large groups of mesmers lately, which is an indication that something may not be right. I don’t know if it’s a matter of them (or others) needing changes or just a matter of figuring out a counter for them. I think I’m currently on the side of letting it ride until HoT drops unless it becomes unbearable.

I don’t have a great warrior build to counter mesmers 1v1 at the moment (I can kill them, but generally not vs equal skill), but it gets worse pretty quickly as you add other mesmers into the mix.

MSFone.3026:

I don’t like stealth. I don’t like PU. However, I don’t want to see PU just nerfed with nothing in return. I’d love it if mesmers didn’t use stealth at all and just had other strengths to play without it. The second part is key, just nerfing stealth without buffing something else would be dumb. For now I use stealth (without PU) because if I don’t I’m gimping myself. I’d like this to change.

That’s another subject entirely. If we play the, “everything I have is legit and you’ll have to pay to take something away” game , then the salty tears will flow through all classes that cling desperately to their broken traits too. we’re talking about undoing a two-week old buff that nobody asked for.

I don’t have any objection to stealth personally, even though I find myself fighting people using it more often than using it myself. But if you want it purged from the game, or want something buffed on mesmers in exchange for removing stealth from the class altogether, that’s a separate topic.

I’d be surprised if anyone wanted to go there with you though. Stealth on mesmers seems fine to me outside of PU.

I’d also support a buff to veil if the stealth bonus from PU was reduced.

You’ll have to read more carefully. I said it won’t do anything to reduce the fun or viability of the class.

Dueling/Inspiration is superior for burst, which is why most shatter members run it and to great effect. Ergo, the cheesy stealth buff isn’t needed for the class to be powerful, and you continue to make my point. Thanks.

Buddy, you’re hysterical. Do you see me demanding the undoing of a baseline IP or saying, “OMFG mesmers OP need NOW!!1!11!”? No.

Mesmer is a great class and fun to play. They should remain that way and, even based on things you’ve said,
reducing the stealth buff on PU won’t change that.

Mesmers haven’t had much experience with the Nerfbat, but I can assure you it usually hits hard and it hits a lot of the wrong stuff in the process. It should be obvious to anyone that plays or plays against a PU build that its stealth buff is excessive. You’d do well to accept that and advocate it be reduced before you actually get a “Mesmer OP” chant going and the Nerfbat comes to breaks things it shouldn’t, as has happened to other classes more than once.

Your continued failure to justify this buff that nobody asked for beyond “Anet wanted it”, and vague claims of counterplay and pleas to “wait till everything settles” speaks volumes.

It’s a troll trait and a crutch for unskilled mesmers like me and, almost certainly, like you too given how tightly you’re trying to hold onto it.

denis.9487:

So that’s it right there. These complainers are upset that Mesmer isn’t on the bottom of the food chain. All this nonsense about thief burst all u need is one button. Mesmer you see our greatsword blade there is counter play. All I’m asking is let it settle. And no I’m not like an engineer asking for there 1 skill I win button. Plenty of counter play with Mesmer stealth.

How in the world would reducing the stealth bonus on PU put mesmers on the bottom of the food chain? It wouldn’t and that’s not the point at all.

I already said I played a PU mesmer last night and it was dead easy to both deliver solid damage pressure and not die even with a party wipe, even though I’m not very skilled as a mes. Do you disagree that it’s a relatively easy and potent build to play with little risk for the reward?

If you do, then you have no idea what’s required of other classes. The point is to bring them all in balance with each other so they’re all fun to play and to play against.

I suppose it’s also time to bring up, again, that you haven’t actually made a case for why the buff is needed. We’re taking about one buff on one trait that nobody asked for in the first place and is clearly not needed for mesmers to be a strong and balanced class.

Sunflowers.1729:

Ya PU is a bit over the top right now but your comparison is so biased it isn’t even funny.

Umm… I play my mesmer more than I play my thief, am currently specced to PU in Wvw, and I main a warrior.

Thieves have counterplay. Even as a warrior, I know where SR is, I know roughly when their regular stealths end and where they need to be to burst, they’re easier to catch if they screw up, and they’re more confined by the initiative system for burst than are mesmers and their clones.

Sure, they have crazy burst coupled with engage/disengage, that’s their schtick. But it’s a fairly unforgiving class if you want to be bursty, especially compared to mesmers.

Landing warrior bursts requires more finesse than PU mesmers right now, and that seems so wrong. Couple that with the nutso survivability enhanced by PU and it should be obvious that rolling back the stealth bonus is a pretty non-disruptive fix.

@Denis
You’re contradicting yourself. If it doesn’t affect any game mode that matters, as far as you’re concerned, then it shouldn’t matter to you if it gets rolled back.

But then you ask why mesmers shouldn’t have long escape, suggesting that it matters on some level. And to that I say they already have it, which is why mesmers without PU are perfectly viable.

The long PU stealth makes that escape, and even mid-fight breathing room, OP relative to the rest of the game. You want long stealth like a thief? Would you be willing to shorten the range and increase the CD on Blink for it? Lower your health pool, perhaps? Increase the shatter skill CD and have it shared across all of them as a global cooldown? I wouldn’t, because it would gut mesmers, but that’s the sort of price thieves pay for their stealth.

Honestly, you sound like the Engineers that claimed Grenadier was balanced while glitched.

People have complained about thieves, a lot, and they pay a heavy price for their stealth.

@denis
That’s an issue that exists now and why stealth traps were invented. We’re taking about actual fights here.

I’ve yet to hear a reason why the buff should be left as is, and I didn’t hear anyone calling for a stealth buff to PU… ever.

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

@ Caraghan
You can completely disengage or you can disengage to reduce the pressure, heal up, and burst again without even leaving combat. This is a thief mechanic and they’ve been balanced for it.

Mesmers can maintain ranged and melee pressure, have quick CD stun breaks, status effects, and quick bursts that are relatively easy to deliver. We’re not taking about taking any of that away from mesmers, only reducing a buff on a trait that was apparently not required, doesn’t matter in some areas of the game, but is OP in other areas of the game.

How is reducing the stealth buff on PU even remotely a controversial point of view?

apharma, that’s kind of the point. You now have the ability to disengage at will with no real counterplay, so you can deliver your burst with virtually no risk., rinse , and repeat.

I don’t think anyone here is saying mesmers have to be gutted, we’re talking about one aspect of one trait that just got a massive boost, and it’s not even a trait that’s necessary for mesmers to be viable (as evidenced by how many don’t run it).

Cut the stealth bonus. By how much, I don’t know… maybe make it +1 or 2 seconds. Yesterday I fought a bunch of mesmers (some of them using PU) as a warrior and later ran a PU setup myself:

Fighting them was ridiculous… I was playing a warrior with about as much mobility as you can get, some control, and lots of killing power, but it didn’t matter because the mesmers could disengage incredibly easily if they were ever in any real trouble.

Running the PU mesmer was also ridiculous. I should be considered, on all accounts, just trash on my mesmer. I like it a lot, I just lack practice so my reaction time isn’t as good as it needs to be and I’m still figuring out burst options and positioning. I was in a wvw havoc and it was so facerollingly easy to get the bursts out and to apply constant pressure it was embarrassing. I also didn’t die once, even if the rest of my party wiped, because the stealth and escape are so good.

So that’s some anecdotal evidence from both sides of the equation. It shouldn’t be so easy for crappy players (me as a mes) to defeat skilled players (me as a warrior). I’m supportive of most of the buffs the mesmer got this round, but the stealth on PU is ridiculous.