Guild Wars 2

Kagamiku.9731:

How is it only a 5% DPS loss? It’s a full 15% DPS loss. You gain no bonus from berserkers power until you have a full bar of adrenaline. If you’re using the burst as soon as you have one bar of adrenaline then you effectively never gain any bonus from berserkers power. Well, you gain a couple seconds of 5% damage boost until you use the burst skill.

I didn’t say you have to spam it, and what you’re talking about is a decision to use a burst at all vs keeping your adren. If you’re simply talking about AS or the auto with max BP, then you’re still better off with AS by the numbers.

With my current set, a rotation could have me using AS shortly after Earthshaker (ES->Fierce Blow->Backbreaker->Hundred Blades->AS->Whirwind), and AS is the only burst you can do that without losing DPS (i.e. without a full bar). If I’ve got my full rotation in, the target’s typically dead. I’m not spamming AS, rather I’m using it situationally and playing to its strengths. For example, if I’m in a big fight, I might not use AS in favour of getting ES up faster. But if my enemy/enemies are low and near me, I might use AS to put them down (I’ve literally downed four people at once with a well timed AS).

Kagamiku.9731:

You have it backwards, if you only used arcing slice when you have all three bars of adrenaline, then you would receive some bonus from berserkers power. But since that would make arcing slice less spammable, that really isn’t any better.

The gain from BP is less than the gain from AS over your auto attack. Maybe if you’re able to get a full Hundred Blades with +15% you’d be better off (I’ve not calculated it), but 3 x AS plus autos in between has more DPS than autos building up to, and eventually getting, +15% from BP. Especially so if your target is less than 50%, which is when you should be using AS unless you have a more situationally appropriate burst.

Kagamiku.9731:

It doesn’t really matter what weapon you pair with GS, the other weapon will have the better f1. If you’re running a skullcrack build then you need to land the f1 mace to land the hundred blade. If you’re running hammer, again, you’ll want to use the f1 stun to land a HB. Especially since back breaker is one of the most telegraphed attacks in existence.

You keep thinking in terms of a full bar and as an either/or proposition. As mentioned above, I’ll use Earthshaker , hit my rotation, and then AS well before I have a full bar. Skullcrack is the same thing – use it, Hundred Blades, AS, Whirlwind for crazy damage. Skullcrack isn’t even off CD before you’ve pulled that off.

Kagamiku.9731:

If you decided you wanted to pair GS with axe for some reason, axe still has the far better f1 skill.

With Burst Mastery, it’s Eviscerate -> AS (immediately) -> Whirlwind, assuming you don’t just want to stay on the axe auto. Really depends on the situation but, if you land those (including the attacks used to get to a full Eviscerate), your target’s in real trouble.

Kagamiku.9731:

Arcing slice has 1.2 coefficient on foes above 50% health and 1.8 on foes below 50%, while the GS auto has a .7 coefficient. So a GS auto will be a bit more than half damage or a bit less depending on the hp of foe.

That’s 71% more damage when the foe is above 50%, and 157% when the target(s) are below 50% health. And that difference increases with crits and through things like Slashing Power, Sigil of Force, etc.

Kagamiku.9731:

It is a DPS loss, in pve.
You wouldn’t use berserkers power in pvp, so it’s nto a DPS loss there, but I don’t understand why anyone would use arcing slice over combustive shot.

If you’re using it at the first stage of adren, the loss from Berserker’s Power is 5%, not 15%, and only for the period of time it takes you to recoup your adren. If you don’t have perma-Fury, the gain from the 20% crit chance should more than offset that loss. And that assumes you’re using Berserker’s Power… if you aren’t, there’s no loss to AS, only gain.

Given the difference in damage (see above), you’re still better off using it than not, especially if you’ll catch more targets in your hit box than you can with your other skills.

The reason someone wouldn’t use Combustive Shot is because they aren’t packing a longbow. Sure, you’re more likely to have one in pvp due to the large field, but they’re considerably less useful (though still good) in wvw.

Kagamiku.9731:

You’re not gaining another 5-8k on up to five targets, it takes the place of an auto attack.

Also, you’re losing the permanent 15% damage boost from Berserker’s Power.

Arcing slice is in-fact a DPS loss

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I hope you’re not actually referring to PvP, as it’s even worse there. Who would use GS f1 for condition cleanse when LB f1 is better in every conceivable way? It’s a guaranteed condition cleanse that doesn’t even need to hit the target and it isn’t affected by blind.
You aren’t going to hit for 5-8k with it in pvp either unless you’re running full glass zerk build…And it’s painful to even think about trying to land GS f1 while running a build like that. The only reliable skill on GS in pvp is whirlwind attack.

I mostly play wvw, where GS has high utility when roaming, and there you are getting 5-8k against up to five targets. I run full zerk gear, but have 300 in the defense tree. My auto on GS runs from 1800-2500 per hit, maybe slightly higher.

But I’ve used AS in pvp arenas as well… it’s not the strongest set by any stretch, but it has the advantage that most players there aren’t used to it. I’ve also used full zerk to good effect in pvp, but unranked only.

And, again, you only need one stage of adren to get max damage out of the skill. It is most definitely not a DPS loss.

Kagamiku.9731:

Arcing slice is terrible and a 10% increase in damage won’t change that fact. They originally lied about the skill saying it will do 100% more damage to foes under 50% health, and with the buff it’s still far weaker than what was promised.

Arcing Slice is a great skill, and you should give it another look. The damage is independent of the number of adren stages you have, you can use it on the move, it still hits hard when targets are under 50%, it hits five targets all around you without as much telegraph as other high damage skills, and is an almost guaranteed condi clear with CI unless you’re out of melee or blinded.

Use whatever burst you like, gain addren from weapon swap and a couple hits from whatever you want, and then get another 5-8k on up to five targets without having to build up full addren? Please and thank you.

EvegodenRaven.5107:

concept one:
Give us a 3rd weapon to switch to, it might sound stupid but having a 1-2-3 weapon swap would change the idea of how warriors work and having 3 different f1 skills with the current Adren setup would make things very very interesting.

It does sound stupid at first, but after my initial reaction I don’t hate it. It would increase the complexity and diversity of warriors (thereby raising the profession’s ceiling), and it works thematically in that the class is supposed to be a master of weapons. The mechanic would also be similar to elementalists as masters of elements.

It would require some thought about balance though. On swap sigils being the obvious danger when combined with Fast Hands, but it may not be that big of a risk overall.

mexay.3902:

Perhaps giving the weapon some more passive effects may help such as increasing vuln out put, some form of condition somewhere or even increasing some of the damage in different areas of the weapon such as auto, bladetrail, AS and Rush. One thing to keep in mind is ArenaNet likes to keep weapons “thematic”, so things like Chill, Burning, Poison, etc wouldn’t fit.

I’d be in favour of adding the same vulnerability effect to Hundred Blades that Rapid Fire has. It would increase HB damage the longer you can successfully channel and carry through to the DPS of the weapon generally, you’re still rooted and in melee, so not as powerful as RF in this regard, and it matches thematically and stacks well with the GS auto attack.

Increasing the speed and/or case of Bladetrail seems warranted too.

mexay.3902:

The rest of the skills are actually really great, Arcing Slice.

I thought I was the only one who thought Arcing Slice is a great skill now. People seemed so disappointed after the first buff, and now it gets another? Nice.

It was as though everyone figured the damage should be the same as Eviscerate, not recognizing the value of being able to hit up to 5 targets around you, on the move, without as much telegraph, for very high damage independent of how much adren you have. That’s right, it does the same damage whether you have 1 stage of adren or 3….

It’s not a premier class 1v1, but it has its uses. Good mobility for roaming in wvw, good party support by way of cc, traited warhorn, etc., and it can hold its own ok.

Engi and ele are definitely more powerful, but it’s pretty satisfying when you outplay people running those classes despite their advantages.

I think warrior is a class for people who like the playstyle or concept, but there are more powerful classes with more interesting mechanics to choose from.

I main a warrior, followed by engi and mesmer.

Tom Gore.4035:

Travis the Terrible.4739:

just as bad as the people who died to the old bulls charge hundred blade spam back in the beta weekends.

You’d be surprised how many still fall for that

Lol, I still use it to pretty good effect. I mean, I don’t combine it with Frenzy or anything, but melting some glass spec with 2/3 of a hundred blades, or having them blow a stunbreaker on what’s otherwise a run skill for me is pretty funny.

Then the hammer comes out.

Speaking of which, I can’t see any reason to go with mace over hammer. Less CC, only one of which is aoe, less damage, and the trait is clearly inferior. I was also in favour of the nerf to Skull Crack, but where it sits now combined with the more recent adren nerfs, I can’t see any reason why anyone would run it anymore.

Wanash.2794:

I just felt like the skillcap of thief is waaay higher then other classes, i could be wrong, but still, if that is the case, isnt that unfair?

And people saying stealth is good is also silly, i rather take more hp and more defense over stealth anytime, sine that you can’t aoe and autoattack threw.

It just takes practice, and some things come more naturally to some people than others. I regularly play with someone who has a harder time getting in the groove with melee classes (heavies in particular) but does great with eles, etc. I’m the opposite, though I actually took to my engineer faster than my warrior (though warrior’s now my main).

Stealth is amazing though, especially if you trait for it and play your character like a thief rather than a warrior. A stealthless thief with warrior health would be one dead thief (same with the reverse… though hammer lock from stealth sounds delicious).

Wanash.2794:

…going to try warrior, but don’t like the so called meta spec and rather play with a GS/LB combo.

Play what you like, and if you find it doesn’t work in the particular aspect of the game you’re playing and/or you aren’t interested in what does work, just play a different class or area of the game.

DeceiverX.8361:

Stupid to be having a thief vs warrior hate thread.

I don’t think that’s what’s happening here, really. It’s one guy QQ about getting beat up by warriors, and everyone else telling him he has a L2P issue.

I personally like where thieves and warriors are, atm. Sure, they could both use some tweaks here and there, but I don’t see any real balance issues personally.

I do see thieves having the advantage in duels and straight out single target ganking, but that’s kind of their role thematically. Warriors can bring all sorts of value to team play in particular, and are viable on their own too generally speaking.

The video I linked was just to counter his claims of max thief damage way under performing warrior damage (via Final Thrust). The later build links were to show how close they were damage wise in pvp.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Let you see who should be nerfed, more tanky, more stuns and more hp, but same and better burst, that’s totally unfair. it’s like 10k burst in 3 sec.

Lol @ QQ. But it’s not faaaaaairrrrr!

Buddy, as has been pointed out repeatedly, thieves have better DPS by a lot. They also have blinds, stealth, and evades, all of which negate the warrior skills you’re whining about. In trade to get those shiny toys, you have a low health pool and medium armor.

If you’re losing to warriors regularly as a thief, look to your own failings. You can (and should) post your concern about OP warriors who outclass thieves on every measure in the Thief section of the forums, and then watch as you get laughed right out of the section. Their may even be demands from other thieves that you delete your character.

This is a l2p moment, kiddo. In fact, I’ve already said that I’m trash on my thief, but here’s an offer. I’ll play the above glass spec and you can play the above warrior spec and see if you can beat me even once. Then I’ll beat you with a condi spec….

Let me know when you’re up for that.

Simon.3794:

Thief OP, nerf please.

You’d better report that guy, because he’s definitely using haxx!! We know that because, as Keyboardwarrior’s evidence clearly shows, the max backstab damage from a glass cannon thief is about 2500 on a crit, but is normally more like 700-800. So, yeah, definitely hax.

Meanwhile, "we’ve got warriors runnin’ around using Final Thrust for 9300 all over this place, snatchin’ your people up, tryin’ to kitten ‘em. So y’all need to hide your kids, hide your wife, and hide your husband cause they’re rapin’ everybody out here! " – Antoine “Keyboardwarrior” Dodson

darkaheart’s build is pretty much the condi build I ran a year or two ago before shifting over to direct damage (luvs those numbars!). It was lots of fun, and the high armor plus the ability to kite around and still do damage as I figured out how to play the warrior against real people had me feeling useful. It’s a strong build that’s also very forgiving.

I still have my rabid gear in the bank, but I’m wondering if the new sinister gear would work now that I’m able to run full zerk without trouble or if the need to build up condis makes the high armor indespensible.

Has anyone tried this with sinister?

Sure, so now let’s look at what you gave up to get the Might signet: 4s of invulnerability and 6s of vigor. Good trade, you think?

As it is, pretty much nobody would play the warrior spec I put there. Do you know why? Because the mitigation outside of the stances (one of which you’ve removed) is poor… armor is low, damage pressure is low, mobility is average, and cc is low (except the hard to land burst, which the thief can port out of). Those are your main class damage mitigation options as a warrior.

But that thief build, that’s a viable glass dagger build. You have plenty of class damage mitigation: stealth, teleportation, basilisk, and insane damage pressure. That’s good entry, unload, and exit opportunity. People would (and do) use that spec.

But let’s ignore all of that and go with exactly what you’ve posted. How many times can you backstab in 15s (the CD of Final Thrust). How about the Heartseekers after the initial burst, which the thief controls through a teleport into the fight, a poison to clamp down on the warrior healing, and an unshakeable cc?

And what will the perma-weakness from the thief do to that Final Thrust assuming he manages to somehow get the thief below 50% health to use and actually land it with that telegraph? Oh yeah, an average of -25%.

It’s become abundantly clear where your troubles are coming from, and it’s not from “OP warriors”, it’s that you have no idea what you’re doing. I suck on my thief, but I’d chew that warrior up all day. The screen shots you posted as a “glass thief” barely reached the base backstab damage of your signet-less thief build, and ONLY when you crit.

NOBODY runs the glass sword build I posted. Quite a few people use the thief build though, and the good ones dominate with it. That’s what we call proof of concept.

Lol, ok buddy. Since you need me to hold your hand:

Here’s that guy’s thief build when converted to pvp:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVlsMp0pdPxxJ8PNRLBt9Ii+L88MxRzHEAA-TpRBwAROCAX3fYxhAgcZAAnAgHPAAA

Backstab base damage: 2336

Here’s a sword warrior with the same gear and trait distribution, and a fairly standard stance loadout:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJAscjMdUFaZIehwJagfgyYAkAnrgU46VOH5OA-TJRBwAX3fgcZAAnAgHPAAA

Final Thrust base: 2581

Then compare the auto attacks, the other weapon skills, the stats (power, crit, etc) and the relative mitigation options.

Now, what are you crying about again?

Lmao, you must be a troll. In case not, here is literally the first video I pulled when I googled “backstab thief gw2 youtube” (set to the point of the first fight):

http://youtu.be/aX1O1V-M-hw?t=26s

First battle’s against a thief in which he gets in a couple hits above 8.5k, and does over 40k in 10s (which includes the start of the fight and bursting through downed to dead). Next battle is against a guardian where he has at least one hit at almost 9k. Next battle is against a ranger, and he gets over 10k. And so on.

The cooldown on final thrust is 15s and it has an obvious telegraph. What’s the CD and telegraph on backstab again? Oh yeah….

If this is a serious post, and I don’t think I can believe it is, then you may just need more practice and better build design. The numbers you’re showing aren’t the numbers for a properly built glass thief.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

As a glassy cannon thief, I never had any single skill damage above 6k actually, warrior has heavy defense skills, huge HP advantages, insane regeneration, heavy armor and surely hits harder too.

You may be the only person in gw2 who thinks warriors have the upperhand over thieves when it comes to dueling.

A tanky regen warrior is absolutely not putting out 9300 with Final Thrust. I run full zerk gear, but do have max defense line for key traits, and I don’t put out that much with FT. My armour is around 2500 and my healing sig is 370/s or so. Glass thieves can easily burst that down.

As a thief, you have lots of tools to shred down a warrior. Face tanking isn’t really one of them, though a good sword/dagger player can stand toe to toe with one.

Bartosz.2013:

I agree, it would be a very good change, for me anet can even delete this arcing slice and buff hb and whirlwind.. Theres no reason to use this f1 skill.

On the first bit, that’s not going to happen. They just debuffed those two skills, they aren’t going to buff them any time soon.

On the second bit, I disagree. I regularly use Arcing Slice in wvw post patch. Why? Because 3-6k on five targets no matter which way I’m facing and while moving is awesome. Plus 15s of fury and a pretty much guaranteed condi cleanse from CI? Yes please.

Sure, it doesn’t hit as hard as Eviscerate, but the total damage when surrounded by targets is better than Eviscerate, Whirlwind, and anything you’re likely to get with 100b (unless you can get multiple targets to stand there and eat the whole thing).

Mystogan.4157:

Hb this?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJASTjMdU5ZVIeewJagfgC9t3C7gpAI9Uk4VBA-TFSBABUcIAM+CAYmSwVV+dqugUV/ho9HA4JAQKAmUGB-w

Looks much better to me. Though I’d go Zerkers gearwise… you’ll get more mileage burning people down with it than you’ll get from the healing power. Just my two cents.

If you find it’s too squishy, I’d go Knights for some or all of your gear (to your comfort level) and then Zerkers for the rest. You don’t need more than 3k armor… more than that and you’re wasting killing power.

For pvp, wvw, or pve?

I’d drop Empowered for any number of things. Quick Breathing would be my choice in a team or pvp sort of context, and you did say condi clear (though you’ll want to drop Dual Wield if you take it). Shrug It Off would give you another source of condi removal and it’ll trigger Vigorous Shouts. The bow traits could be good choices if you expect to use it a lot.

An offhand axe generally isn’t optimal, but it depends on where you’ll be. If you’re thinking you need something to keep Fury going and to build adrenaline (because you don’t have much of that), then axe will certainly do that. Consider experimenting with the others to find what works best for you.

I also think your armor is a little low for someone who’s new to warrior (unless you’re doing pve), but you’ll have to find your own comfort level. Your damage should be nice and high. Remember that Axe autoattack is your best friend, just try to get that third hit in before using another skill.

Your food choice isn’t really doing anything for you either. Lots of other choices that are both cheap and better. Depends where you’ll be and what you’ll be doing.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you were disappointed with the performance of the shout healing. I see a more damage oriented build here with some shout heals thrown in, but your damage mitigation isn’t great. I’d personally commit more to damage (Discipline tree specifically) or pump up the armour before going shout heal, unless I was running a bunker build.

dooger.2640:

Pve does not matter, so who cares.

Apparently the OP.

lol @dominik.972 You appear determined to miss the point.

Remember, the OP was asking about PvE. You seem to be fixated on a limited aspect of the game and judging everything, builds, players, etc. according to what works best in that limited niche.

dominik.9721:

I don’t run PvP-builds in WvW because you can’t play a hambow or sth. else there.
But it doesn’t change the fact that WvW “warrior-builds” are bad builds,though.
Play against classes who can play pvp builds in WvW like S/D thiefs, terrormancers, 60062 engis and you’ll get facerolled with an GS/Axe , GS/hammer build , even if the oppenent make a lot of mistakes.

Terrormancers don’t cause me a lot of trouble anymore. I can manage their conditions (including fear) easily enough through Berserker’s, weapon swaps, and CI to keep them on their back foot through damage.

But again, you’re defining “bad” by what will lose in spvp, or in wvw within the confines of an spvp-esque fight. I already identified some builds that have the advantage against the build I’m running, but there’s a reason most of the people I come across aren’t running those, and it’s not solely lack of skill or knowledge. It’s because those builds aren’t super valuable in wvw, where winning 1v1s isn’t really that important.

dominik.9721:

Yes because you fight WvW-Roamers. People who will win against any GS/Axe build probably aren’t even playing WvW…. [blah blah blah everyone but me sucks blah blah blah]… you won’t win any fights with kind of those build unless your oppenents really suck

Context is key, kiddo. You run an spvp build in wvw and you’ll find it less effective there. Why? Because the range of situations you have to deal with and things you have to do is much greater, from roamers to zergs, npcs, siege, large maps, etc.

Different aspects of the game have different factors that will define what makes for a good or bad build, and that includes pve too, by the way. I’ve stomped spvp heroes who figured they were the kitten with their builds because they weren’t prepared for combat outside the tiny range they were used to.

It’s not simply a matter of skill. The same reasons I’m not running a LB at the moment, others aren’t running builds that would be more optimal where small group fights or 1v1s in tiny spaces are all that matter.

mPascoal.4258:

For those you have Berserker Stance, it helps at least for the inicial moments. S/D in WvW Idk if it is counter but in sPvP sure is. You are not beating one in sPvP with a GS unless they really suck

Yeah, I run Berserker’s Stance, Brawler’s Recovery, Sigil of Cleansing, and Cleansing Ire to deal with conditions. But a well played p/d thief can kite well enough to outlast the stance, prevent CI, and outpace the BR and sigil.

Packing a ranged weapon would probably deal with that and the s/d thieves well enough, but every build has it’s trade offs.

I use the GS mostly for mobility, both in combat and out, which is really important in wvw. 100 blades and Arcing Slice have their uses too, but Axe is the principle damage dealer in the build..

dominik.9721:

Winning fights with Greatsword /Axe, actually means your oppenent sucks or his build

Huh… I run it in wvw and win most of my fights… probably around 80% of my 1v1s on average. I can also burn people down in group fights and have decent sustain (shield offhand). Really depends on what I’m up against.

Decent p/d thieves and, to a lesser extent, s/d thieves can cause me trouble, but I’m not sure yet if they’re a hard counter (p/d thieves anyway).

Cygnus.6903:

Most people don’t realise that Arcing Slice to a <50% foe does ~the same damage as Rush (if that would ever hit anything).

As has been mentioned, AC actually hits and it hits up to five people. I pack it and Eviscerate in wvw and I don’t always reach for the Eviscerate. More was promised, but 3-5k against up to five targets, clearing condis, and topping off my fury works for me.

On a related note, I’ve seen people calling for Rush to be fixed (e.g. by making it a leap). While I’d love that, I’m willing to bet Anet would simultaneously make it so it required a target to use due to how many people now want to take away warrior out of combat mobility.

Did you use, or do you know anyone who used, Arcing Slice before the buff? You know, beyond near the end of a fight when weapon swap was in cooldown or you wanted a little fury? Not me.

I don’t think it’s over buffed, it’s where it should be.

The other ones you’ve mentioned are known dogs, except Flurry when used as a lead-in to 100b or for some other reason you might want a long root (the bleeds are nothing). Skull Crack used to fill this role, until they extended the cast time and increased the telegraph so people could see it coming a mile a way.

I think most of your suggestions for those bursts are fine, especially in light of the recent changes to adrenaline (specifically, lose it all on a miss). That being said,

1. moveable Flurry won’t get you anything except a few short bleeds (immob is applied on the first hit)

3. Warhorn. No real argument for it based on the rest of your post (i.e. no burst). Plus, traited WH is already seriously good in group wvw as is. Maybe not pve, I don’t know.

munkiman.3068:

It has, probably many times in many threads. even PvE is limited on the reward level. WvW has been pretty neglected on the rewards as well. Not that it’s not worth bringing up again and again though.

Fair enough.

I couldn’t get through 15 pages, so not sure if it’s been brought up or not, but someone on my server proposed increasing the rewards for wvw. The rationale being, if people are grinding dungeons for rewards, perhaps they’d have more of a reason to enter wvw.

It wouldn’t address population and coverage balance, but it may increase wvw populations overall. Combine with the ol’ free transfers to lower tier servers (or establishing some sort of market dynamic), and it might help.

Or not. It’s clear I haven’t put nearly as much thought into this as others, so I’d defer to those who have. But I can say as a long time wvw’er on one of the lower tier servers that there isn’t much appetite there for server mergers. Most of the people who would have favoured that already transferred up to higher tier servers (it’s what dropped us from mid to lower tier in the first place).

EnemyCrusher.7324:

The builds I’m talking about are built with the main purpose of running away. They do have Berserker Stance, and they have no problem holding onto two of their utility skills until they’re needed (especially when one is a signet that passively reduces damage taken by 10%). No one ever claimed that they’re great damage dealers.

Then they’re nothing to worry about, are they? If they don’t deal much damage, they can’t win fights, and they hang onto their utility skills in case they need to bail, then they aren’t going to nab your camps on their own and you apparently don’t care about the loot bags, so…..

EnemyCrusher.7324:

I play all 8 classes, and all of them move somewhat fast except my mesmer. None of them (even my own warrior, because I prefer to run a reasonable build) can catch cowardly warriors…. I’m more concerned about the state of the game than the occasional chance at getting something worth 5 silver.

I don’t buy it, and I’d be surprised if anyone else does. You say yourself that you’ve consciously decided to build for a different purpose, and it more seems you’re bothered that people aren’t sticking around to watch you flex in all your glory.

Sorry, I regularly chase down runners on my own warrior, and only a few give me a long chase and even fewer get away. I’ve had other opponents get away, but it’s never anything I wanted to cry about.

See, you’ve got no point here and your “concern” is unwarranted. If you’re playing wvw, then you’ve chased the warrior away from whatever he was trying to do. That, presumably, protected your ppt and pushed him elsewhere. If you had killed him, he’d have respawned and popped up somewhere else. There’s no difference except you didn’t get some cheap loot bag you say you aren’t interested in.

If you’re just looking for fights, there’s a whole different area of the game for you. A magical place where warriors can’t run away so easily, and the whole point is to kill your enemies….

Apparition.1576:

You do not need a stun to land a hammer burst. You just need to monitor their dodges or time the skill appropriately.

Dand already addressed quite a lot of your post, so I’ll only address this one point. Counting dodges is smart, and timing is key.

But now you go back to zero on more than a successful dodge, also blocks, evades, blinds, stuns, immobilizes, roots, possibly cripples, chill, etc (last ones for melee bursts particularly with movement attached).

You should keep counting those dodges, but you aren’t going to count all those other hazards, especially when many of them can be applied by others on the battlefield.

The old mechanic put you in cooldown, but you didn’t lose your adrenaline, so no burst reward but your sustain wasn’t hampered while you waited around. And that was before the slower generation and quick die off of adrenaline we have now.

And, as I said, landing the burst isn’t the OMFG ROFLSTOMP that it once was. It’s between a so-so hit and something decent… nothing more. And the risk and implications of missing aren’t inconsequential.

Apparition.1576:

Hammer Burst comes with a stun. You can be killed in a single stun burst. That’s the reason people take stun breakers.

In regards to burst being guaranteed hits.. that defeats the purpose of PvP. Nothing is a guaranteed hit. It’s about timing and execution.

I’m not really following you then. Neither of us are in favour of bursts being guaranteed hits, and your point about stun breakers seems to undermine the logic of needing to use a setup skill (e.g. a stun) to use (in this case) the stun of a hammer burst.

Apparition.1576:

In the Sport of boxing, a good fighter knows that a power punch needs to first be setup. Don’t engage trying to throw haymakers at the start. You can know that an ability is coming, but if I set it up first and time it properly. You won’t be able to avoid it.

So, the list was to lay out the overall problem.

But as for your general point, that would be fine if the bursts were haymakers, but they aren’t. Eviscerate’s the big hit, and it does about the same damage as three axe auto attacks if it lands, or other single hit skills with longer CDs (e.g. sword 3, hammer 5, etc).

Bursts on several of the other weapons, notably sword, mace and, to a lesser extent, hammer, are the setups. By your rationale, someone should use a stun to set up the stun on a mace burst, or an immobilize to set up the immobilize on a sword burst.

I’m still in favour of making it possible for people to dodge those though, my point wasn’t that they should be guaranteed hits, and sometimes setup skills can and should be used. As I said, the purpose was to layout the overall problem of what is now a fairly irrelevant mechanic around which warriors have been built by design (i.e. by the game designers, not just the builds players use).

Azure The Heartless.3261:

wups ~ I must be tired. My mistake.

But you did quote me, actually. Maybe not as tired as I thought.

It’s all good, but I only quoted you when replying to you. My original quote on this adrenaline question was of Yamsandjams.3267, who is the one who made the claim.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Not ire….

Dude, the guy I was responding to on the bit you quoted from me specifically said the changes to adrenaline nerfed the “cowardly” warrior. I’m saying the changes to adrenaline have no connection to the issue the OP is bringing up.

You’re not in the conversation you think you’re in. You and I seem to agree regarding the irrelevancy of the OPs original point… he’s annoyed that he can’t do something he wants (grab loot off of mobile warriors), but it’s just narrowly focussed QQ.

Sebrent.3625:

Honestly, I think Warrior is how other classes should be … have a telegraph for ALL of your abilities. Why? Because it provides something to react to which enables counterplay….

If a Warrior gets me with a telegraphed skill, kudos to them. They outplayed me at that moment and here’s their reward (and my punishment).

Yes, but what you’re missing is the risk:reward issue. I was also fine with the increased telegraphing on the bursts (they were always telegraphed, but they made them much more so over the last several patches), and people being able to dodge them is more fun play.

But here’s where things now sit for bursts when you add up all the changes:

1. Generating full adrenaline is tougher now
2. Anyone paying attention to the warrior can see and easily mitigate the burst
3. If the warrior actually manages to hit, the result is only one “meh” to decent hit
4. If the burst is mitigated, the target disengages for 2s, or the warrior has to move to the next target a couple seconds away, return to step #1

This isn’t remotely where the other professions are with their mechanics, and the above doesn’t even get into the consequences to warrior sustain that has been built around the now nerfed adrenaline mechanic.

To give you an idea, the changes have me leaning toward switching to my mesmer as my main (with my thief and engineer somewhere behind them). It’s not just about becoming a comparatively weak class, the warrior doesn’t have anything particularly unique or interesting about it anymore either.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Again, he isnt talking about mere mobility. He’s talking about ridiculous gtfo-mobility coupled with apparently heavy condi mitigation.

While the changes to adrenaline definitely affect the value of Cleansing Ire (for condi removal), warriors on the run aren’t really in a position to use it since (1) you need to hit a target to get the cleanse, unless you’re using longbow, (2) if you’re using longbow, you’re not hard to catch, and (3) if you hit a target when trying to escape you only prolong the slow down for being in combat.

There were no adrenaline benefits for warriors escaping combat, except the very small leap some would get using hammer or axe, which aren’t running weapons. The changes to adrenaline make it less likely you’ll make any burst, whether in combat or out (and bursts aren’t useful for running).

Yamsandjams.3267:

The adrenaline changes are actually something that does nerf your garden variety “coward” warrior, which I think was a better way of going about it than hacking away at their mobility on two of their weapons.

…how? If anything, it’ll make the warriors he’s describing more likely to run away. Their ability to break combat and run is completely unaffected by the changes to adrenaline.

Sebrent.3625:

…but I don’t think you should retain your resource if it is blocked/dodged/misses/etc…

I don’t object to losing adrenaline on a miss, but introducing the mechanic after a year or more of making bursts really telegraphed and reducing their damage, and then simultaneously making it difficult to generate in the first place, borks the risk:reward ratio.

Where’s the sense in making a core class mechanic (1) difficult to implement, (2) easy for an opponent to mitigate, and (3) only decent to “meh” if it lands?

You’ve compared the Mesmer clone mechanic to this in a few posts, but I find the clone mechanic and options are actually much richer. I agree that clones dying when a target does seems odd and should probably be changed, but they’re still way more versatile and fun than where warrior bursts are at the moment.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

And none of those who claim things like “just cripple or CC them” can explain how you’re supposed to do that to a warrior with stability who is immune to conditions.

Yes, cowardly warriors sacrifice a lot of damage in order to run away unconditionally. No one is claiming that they’re overpowered, that’s not what this post is about.

Warriors are immune to conditions for 8s using Berserker Stance (if equipped), which is on a 60s CD and should have long been used if they actually engaged the fight and stayed until losing. Similarly, stability skills last 8s and are on either a 40 or 60s CD. If they’ve held back 2/3 of their utilities on the off chance they’ll need them to escape, it’s no wonder these warriors are losing their fights.

Can some warriors disengage and be difficult to catch? Sure. Are they uncatchable? Nope, not if you’ve built in some hustle, various snares or cc, boon stripping, or otherwise have a fairly good handle on positioning. Are they the only ones that can disengage to similar effect? Uh uh (stealth, clones, teleports, leaps, run skills, etc).

As others have implied, if you can’t catch them it’s because you haven’t built for the task. You’ve sacrificed sufficient mobility or control, probably to pump damage or tankiness, whereas these warriors have done the reverse. I’ll bet they’re also really good at running down their enemies when their enemies try to retreat from them.

What this post is about is QQ that speedy warriors sometimes make it difficult to claim loot bags from them. Saying it goes against the “philosophy” of being a warrior is just lame.

Lame post is lame.

Speed/mobility is a damage mitigation option for warriors, so is cc and so is high damage pressure. Other classes have their own (sometimes semi-unique) mitigation options.

Are you seriously kittened that you can’t catch these warriors? Others have already explained how to catch them, and you should know the warrior that’s gone Nascar has sacrificed other things to do it… like any build/class in the game.

And it goes against the “philosophy” of playing warrior… srly?

Gamgee.8612:

Also a question I want to raise is if you think we will see an increase of healing surge due to adrenal changes? Would it be worth it or would you just cripple your build further?

I think you’ll see less of it, actually. They’re not making adren generation more difficult, they’re just making adren easier to lose with no benefit. The extra perk of Healing Surge is the boost to adren, but that adren will be less valuable than it has been once the changes go in.

The changes strike me as giving more reason to run a Heal Sig Hambow than there is now, tbh.

Personally, I’d like to see a rollback on some of the animation (and damage) nerfs to burst skills that have occurred over the last while. Losing adren on miss is fine, but with all the ways to avoid the bursts after the aforementioned nerfs (maybe excluding hammer and bow in a group fight), it seems to me the risk:reward balance is off.

The bursts aren’t crazy damaging like they used to be, they’re easier to dodge for anyone paying attention, and now blinds, roots, evades, blocks, and dodges neutralize them pretty effectively.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, now that missing a Burst means you lose your adrenaline some compensation may end up needing to happen to make other burst skills a tad more reliable.

Exactly. Anet has been making animation for bursts more obvious as part of their general balance strategy for some time.

That’s fine, but it means “lose adrenaline on miss” is a real blow to weapons other than hammer and bow. The other bursts are easy to dodge if your opponent is paying attention, and then you have blinds, snares, etc. that really hinder a one-hit burst.

It’d be nice if they rolled back some of the animation and damage changes they’ve made to those bursts when they roll out losing adren on a miss.

Ironically, GS comes out ok. It didn’t get any animation or damage changes because no one really used that burst skill, and now it gets nicely buffed. Get axe and mace there too, maybe remove the root for sword, and all the burst skills should have a good risk/reward balance with the change on miss.