Guild Wars 2

@Sebrent
Because a zerg is about herd viability, not individual viability. If we use the zerg as the measure, then we can safely remove condi clears from some classes because others provide it for them. It’s just a really, really bad measure of class viability because the zerg comp is covering all gaps and flaws.

Hell, the zerg is probably the one place a warrior could get away without Fast Hands because 1111111111111 on the front line works on any weapon.

As for IP, remember that I’m fully in support of making it baseline. Pointing out that all shatter mesmers took it supports my argument, not yours. Same with pointing out that all warriors use FH but non-shatter mesmers don’t care as much about IP… the latter did get a gift they wouldn’t otherwise have.

Point taken on the shatter damage.

As for making the case that warriors need it, I already outlined the best test available. Find viable builds that don’t use it… builds that stand up against other classes. We know mesmers don’t need IP (as per your point), but it was still good that they got it because it supports build diversity, and we already know the other classes don’t need Fast Hands. So, which warriors don’t?

Besides, warriors already have Fast Hands. Making it baseline doesn’t give them the gift of shorter cooldowns, it gives the gift of greater build diversity.

The dps is the same only when you can maintain 9 stacks of might through FGS (no other sources). To do that, you need to maintain an average of nine crits on your gs per 6.5s throughout combat.

The might from FGS does help your hammer a bit, but not as much as you might think. A few stacks for a few seconds at most, and it won’t be nearly as much as you’re losing by not maintaining the 9 stacks from FGS while on your gs.

The extra Fury you get in your line is only 10s. That’s one extra Arcing Slice than you’re presently using to maintain it all the time, and keep in mind that my build has 100% uptime without using AS due to rune choice.

To each their own, of course, but dps wise the Arms route is inferior to the Strength route between these builds. The Arms route is a bit better for mobility (shorter cooldowns) and you can output a tonne of group might if you combine it with Phalanx (I’ve never managed find an optimal place for it though).

After the expansion… yes, that will be phenomenal. They really did the gs a solid with that… and shield, it got some serious love too.

@Sebrent
I spend about 100% of my wvw time in havoc or roaming, actually. Warriors having a place in the zerg has absolutely nothing to do with how powerful they are… between when warriors damage output was nerfed quite a bit and before the big healing signet buff + creation of Cleansing Ire, warriors were still part of the zerg. This is an exceedingly bad measure of the viability of a class.

Burst mesmers are amazing pretty much everywhere except a large zerg. You make it sound as though they’re the poor step children of gw2, when they can absolutely wreck house. The damage increase is pretty obvious actually… mesmers are capped at 3 clones, so having the mesmer count as a clone for a burst increases the output by 1/3. If you only had two clones out, adding the mesmer increases damage by half. If you had one clone out, it’s a 100% damage increase. Though you can get a little burst off with just yourself with IP, the better door it opens is a short on-demand distortion when you’re out of endurance or to get off the stomp.

Making IP baseline for mesmers was absolutely the right thing to do, but not because it gave them a power increase they badly needed (they don’t… they’re one of the fastest burst classes out there). What it does is allow greater build diversity for mesmers utilizing their burst mechanic.

@Heimskarl Ashfiend and @Sebrent
That’s not power creep, that’s addressing forced rigidity. Unless you’re taking the position that the Discipline tree is comparatively weak to the other trait lines (which would be absurd), making Fast Hands baseline when all warriors already run it does nothing to power creep except give warriors an additional minor trait. That’s it.

Sounds alright to me. I’d probably quibble on the distance, reduce the stability duration to maybe a second past the time needed to execute the skill (Rampage can be the main source of stability for physical builds), and leave it as the standard launch that it is now (without tying it to endurance), but that’s all testing fodder.

You’re right that it’s a pretty lame duck skill except for the lulz, from time to time.

@Sebrent
Thieves are an integral part of Wvw gank squads, and they, along with mesmers, can do incredible havoc work like no other classes. Engineers are an excellent dueling class, and are pretty spectacular from roaming to mid sized fights. Rangers… at least a couple of servers are getting reputations for the sheer number of rangers they’re fielding, so something’s working for them in Wvw too.

The OP noted that warriors are hampered in their diversity because of the need to take Fast Hands. The new content arguably exacerbates that because now 1/3 of a warriors traits will be devoted to that line instead of 3/14.

While it’s true that Anet is making quite a few changes to traits that will open up new options, there’s nothing in the announced trait changes that factor into the class mechanic that makes Fast Hands so crucial. That isn’t the case with CI, imo, but it’s true for Fast Hands.

The people who brought up Illusionary Persona were right to. IP is a key grandmaster trait that increases the damage of any mesmer shatter build by at least 1/3. Making it baseline along with putting attributes to gear instead of traits will go a long way to increasing the diversity of mesmers built around their class’ core mechanic, and that’s a good thing.

Fast Hands is completely analogous for warriors as IP is for mesmers, except FH isn’t a grandmaster and viable mesmer builds without IP actually exist.

Given that all warriors running viable builds already run FH, making it baseline would contribute nothing to power creep of the class, but it would support build diversity which is clearly an objective Anet has in mind with the HoT rebuild. Moreover, neither making FH baseline or leaving it as is will do anything to the place warriors (or others) have in GWEN, or any other group comp.

This whole thread has been about build diversity, but your argument doesn’t appear to be about that at all. Frankly, it doesn’t seem like you’re saying a baseline FH would be too powerful anymore either. Rather, it seems like you’re saying warriors already have nice stuff (basically, a place throughout the game) so they should accept the lack of diversity as some sort of cost for being invited to all the parties. If so, it’s not a strong argument against the proposition.

@Sebrent
You’re talking about group comp, not class or build viability. Meaning, warrior has its role in those things because of what it brings that others don’t.

By that rationale, mesmers are core to large scale Wvw because of portals and veils. Though mesmers are viable, it’s not because of the things they brought to the party.

Your measure for viability seems off to me by a lot.

@Sebrent
This is a very easy test to validate your claims. We know the other classes are viable without fast hands, the question is whether warriors are.

To find out, we only have to find builds that don’t use the trait but are still viable. It’s a challenge that’s open to anyone, and it’s not as though there aren’t plenty of ways to test those builds in a variety of circumstances. You say they’re currently competitive without FH vs other classes, so can you provide some sample builds we can test?

Appealing to exceptional skill that some players have to win with suboptimal builds isn’t a valid response. It injects an additional variable into the mix and, frankly, those exceptional players would arguably win more if they were running builds that weren’t relatively weak.

Either fast hands is critical to a warrior’s competitive viability or it’s not. The answer to that directly weighs into the appropriate response to the lack of diversity the OP brought up.

Sebrent.3625:

@silentnight.warrior:
What is it that you’re wanting to be “more effective” as far as Warrior weapon skills are concerned? They already have some of the highest damage coefficients in the game on top of the other niceties.

The thing you have to consider with Elegie’s post is, yes, it does make those things weaker … but weaker from what? There’s is a big difference between something extremely strong becoming weaker and something average becoming weaker.

It appears you’re saying warrior is one of the most powerful classes in the game, if not the most powerful. Is that correct? Until now, I assumed you were just saying warrior had a role in each of the three game modes

Also, to you, if Anet simply removed fast hands from the game, how viable do you think warriors would be in relation to other classes? Specifically thinking Wvw and PvP here… pve is pretty broad, and “being optimal” only matters for dungeon runs.

Thanks Nike, that’s awesome.

The base might duration from FGS is only 5s, and with Hoelbrak runes that works out to 6.5s.

The only way someone’s going to get 9 stacks of might within 6.5 seconds is by cleaving multiple targets with 100 blades, and they’d have to maintain it throughout combat to match the dps of the Slashing Power route.

Some might will undoubtedly carry over to the hammer skills but, realistically, it’s not going to be more than a few stacks for a few seconds.

FatRaKoon.1782:

Absolutely, I didn’t mention it because it was off topic but this would clearly be the best choice. Better take the whole Discipline traitline than the defense one.
Cleansing Ire is currently the trait that takes away our build diversity, not Fast Hands (well at least not as strongly).

Viable builds already exist that don’t use Cleansing Ire (not many, but they exist). More so after HoT drops because of the additional condi cleanse options in the revised trait lines.

There are several traits that help adren building. It’s the combination of the best addren building and condi clearing options into one trait that make CI so appealing, but it’s not indispensable (even as an adren builder).

I don’t think the same can be said about Fast Hands, tbh. But perhaps the people who were claiming it’s just a really good trait can make the case that warriors would still be viable if the trait was removed entirely.

Cygnus.6903:

About DotE versus AoO, when you don’t apply regular bleeds, it is a waste to take AoO. Often, DotE is better then AoO anyway, as many classes run 4+ boons. On my Sword/Shield build I do take it because I am almost guarantueed to have a bleeding target.

Switching out a sigil is not worth it IMO, as the sigils I chose have a very distinct purpose and they function that much better when combined.

Yeah, I figured the same. If we’re wrong on that, we’re wrong together. (Between you and me, I’m pretty sure we’re right).

NikeEU.7690:

But above you can see I used hypothetical stats for each build (2500 power which isnt a real number and crit chance 50% which isn’t accurate either) if you would like I can calculate DPS for each build if you provide me with the accurate unbuffed base Power / Crit chance / crit damage for each.

Wow, thanks for this! Saved me a bunch o’ time.

Could you run it again using +200 power and the +10% gs trait on the one hand, and +9.5% crit chance and the FGS trait on the other to see how much extra might is needed for the former to match the latter?

Also, to be clear, your 1.2 crit damage number is +1.2 not x1.2, right? As in, 220%? If so, that’s about in line with the builds we’re talking about. The other variables are gear selection, so can be ignored for the calc. Thanks again.

I couldn’t bear to read through pages and pages of posts that said the same thing, so please forgive me if this was already covered…..

The thread began with an observation that pretty much all warrior builds considered viable have fast hands, hence the conclusion that making all warriors have it would increase build diversity. I don’t think anyone would dispute this.

The counterpoint raised is that all warriors take it because it’s crazy powerful, so it’s the opportunity cost of not taking it that drives all warriors there, and making it baseline would represent way too much power creep.

To test the latter, we only have to ask, if fast hands was removed altogether, would warriors be viable against other classes? My feeling is no, but it’s an open question.

Still, removing the trait should also support build diversity in the same way as making it baseline. This test is to determine whether or not the trait is vital to the class’ viability.

@Cygnus
If you go down that page a bit you’ll see the multiplier applies to the entire value of weapon damage, so you’re short changing the trait a bit by only applying the bonus to power. Also, multipliers have a multiplicative effect on each other, so it ends up being a touch more than 10%.

You actually have to dodge into your enemy to proc reckless dodge, so I try to do exactly that when in melee range. It really is a fantastic trait, imo.

@juba
I almost included that very point in my last comment. That if someone went through Arms, putting one more point in might be worth it.

But then he’d have to give up DotE or Merciless Hammer, plus add an Earth sigil to ensure good bleed uptime to make it work and I didn’t have the time to calculate if it was worth the trades required.

@Cygnus and @EremiteAngel
Here’s the hammer roamer I’ve been using for a while now. I usually cheap out and use saffron bread and hardened sharpening stones though, the linked build is just more optimal. It works for me anyway.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJARSjMdU2ZZIWhwJagfgC9t3C7gxAYAU+G5OA-TVCFABVfEAQ4QAAwFAoQ1fuSJISK/qZ/h00FswDAIAACwNvZ28mBOv5Nv5Nv55m38m38m3sUAMp1C-w

@EnderzShadow
Well, Cygnus’ build has more toughness by the traits alone (and gear, if you take that route), and switching the food gives you almost as much condi reduction as the other build (the difference is only 5%). The food choice doesn’t appear to be integral to Cygnus’ build, so if you like his damage output better and only found the condis to be a problem, switching the food should hook you up nicely.

For Cygnus, he doesn’t find condis to be a problem, so Omnom is the better choice. It could be personal style, or it could be that you’re coming up against more condis. Either way, experiment to see what feels right to you.

Cygnus.6903:

…lots of great points…

Strength Route:
+200 Power
+Crittable 864 damage to five targets (Reckless Dodge)
+2.5k health or so (agreed, traits are meh. Though Death from Above can be hilarious)
+15 endurance on burst through Building Momentum (pretty meh)
+10% damage on gs

Arms Route:
+200 Precision
+158 through 3s of non critting bleed damage 33% of the time (Precise Strikes)
+10s fury/vigor every 30s
+10% crit chance on burst skills
+might on gs crit and -20 gs CD

I have to run, so I’ll have to do the math later. The above is just for reference. Some notes on your points though:

- Reckless Dodge is actually no joke. Being zerk, I’m obviously dodging around a bunch. It usually crits, and that has me doing 2.5k-3.2k to up to five targets which is better than an air sigil by a lot. I pulled 4.3k on a mesmer last night, but I have no idea why… he wasn’t an uplevel, so maybe had broken armor? No idea. Shouldn’t have been possible.

- You’d need 6.67 stacks of might just to match the 200 power from the trait line, which you might be able to maintain through FG but that’s with landing some of a 100b and Whirlwind. You won’t really begin to start chipping into the +10% from SP via FG, even if you’re working kitten your gs to do it (which you won’t, because the hammer’s awesome). But, yeah, I get what you’re saying with multiple targets and that probably helps a lot if you manage to cleave people going for a rez with 100b or whirlwind through a group.

- Also, keep in mind, Slashing Power isn’t +10% power but +10% damage, which is much better.

- The extra precision you get from the Arms tree is good for about 9.5% crit chance. Good, but at our already high crit rates it doesn’t represent as much of damage increase as does the 200 power from strength

For the rune choice, Hoelbrak is certainly helping you with the might stacking, particularly while running FG. Before switching to Pack runes, I actually ran Strength runes with FG but found I was better off overall with what I’ve got going now.

Like you say though, it’s not all about what the straight numbers look like. There are a lot of variables out there (like the number of targets to proc FG, the condis you’re up against when choosing food, etc), and then there’s play style and ability (like how you made choices to create a more accessible build). And then fun… fun trumps everything.

Neither of them seem optimal, tbh. And that’s no disrespect to the players, but the build choices seem off to me.

Shinryuku:

In no way is Leg Specialist more valuable than the options available on the Strength, Defense or Tactics trees there. I personally go Defense for Armored Attack and Merciless Hammer, but it’s not the only route.

The sigils are messed up too. Putting air on hammer and not gs makes no sense, and their are far better choices than impact on the gs too. Energy, Fire, Fury, Cleansing (if you need more condi removal), etc. I also put Intelligence on my hammer personally, to ensure those big hits on a stun lock.

Cygnus:

My only gripe on this is, based on the numbers, 4 points into Strength instead of Arms makes way more sense. You don’t stack enough might using Forceful Greatsword to outweigh the dps of Slashing Power so, unless you really need the better cooldown for some reason that isn’t dps, it’s not the optimal route.

I think he’d get more mileage out of full zerk if he can handle it too, but to each his own. Hammer sigils are also weird to me… again, Intelligence would be a better choice than Impact since you only have 4s of stun or knockdown at +10% vs all your big hits (well, the first 3) landing a guaranteed crit. It’s no contest.

Again, that’s no disrespect to the players and I’m a proponent of people doing what they find works for them and is fun. But numbers-wise, I think they both have better options.

Based on your experience of both, changing Cygnus’ food for Lemongrass would give you practically the same condi resistance. No idea why you’d find it easier to get kited on his build either… that 1s immob every 5s from Leg Specialist isn’t that decisive, and Cygnus would have lower CD on the gs movement skills.

EnderzShadow.2506:

Junkpile.7439:

I use op warrior axe/shield & sword/mace 0.9 build.

Is this a joke? Or is that really a build. If it is, I wanna see it. I want to try something new.

I’ve never heard of it before, but changing it to mace/sword and adding Missile Deflection would make for a hilarious anti ranged build that could be kited for days.

Rampager can still work using sword and bow. Berserker is more en vogue at the moment, but you should still be viable depending on what you want to do.

There’s no reason to think so. In fact, the new approach to traits should allow for diversity between two different warriors using the same weapon and even trait comp (e.g. dps, bunker, and condi versions of h/gs Str-Def-Tac).

What we don’t have a handle on, and won’t until release, is which stat arrays will be the most optimal. For example, I run full berserker now and that’s poised to have even more damage output as gear gets higher stats to compensate for the loss of stats associated with traits. But that also means my toughness and healing power will drop. Will I be too squishy? Don’t know yet.

So if you’re asking because you’re trying to decide whether you should craft a bunch of ascended stuff, I’d say hold off doing a complete set until after the dust settles. You should be fine to do weapons and trinkets, leaving your armor exotic til you know. Ascended armor gives you the least extra benefit anyway.

mauried.5608:

Just started on this char, and cant find a specific answer to this.
Obviously referring to NPCs who do some fighting alongside you such as in the Personal story.
So far Warriors are cool.

Yup, they sure do. Just tested it to make sure.

I was experimenting with this as a wvw roaming last week:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNBhYDbkpjyOLDxKEOREUFUYX8AwiyjoxTuBvAA-TVCFABP8AAQ4gAAwFAoQ1fuSJISK/qZ/h00NswRAIAACwNvZ2sNDOv5Nv5Nv55m38m38m3sUAMpMC-w

A reasonable variant would be to drop Reckless Dodge for Defy Pain. Both are good, but I figured it’d be nice to the aoe 2-3k crits on dodge with all that vigor.

Pros:
- Perma swiftness for up to 10 allies
- Near perma vigor for up to 10 allies (perma vigor for the warrior)
- Near perma fury for up to 5 allies (perma fury for the warrior)
- Pretty good damage and burst
- Some condi clear/conversion for up to 10 allies
- Very good resistance to condis personally
- Pretty insane engage/disengage (as close to a thief as a warrior can get)
- 4.5 sec immobilize to set up bursts for yourself and allies

Cons:
- No aoe and no blocks
- Immob is the primary cc, which is less reliable than stuns, dazes, knocks, etc
- Less damage/burst than other available builds
- Not very good in 1vx scenarios except to be a bit trollish

So it’s great to get around a wvw map, provide some bonuses to a good number of people around you, has a combat role that’s a little like playing a less bursty but tougher thief.

I’ve moved back to h/gs as my main setup, but have switched back into this one whenever speed (group or otherwise) and in-combat mobility is in demand, or just for the lulz. Other builds are better for other things (e.g. shout builds).

It’s never a bad thing to have a range of gear, especially for the warrior. h/gs should still be viable after the new content drops, but it looks there’ll be greater diversity in terms of what’s viable too.

Definitely recommend trying out different weapons to see what works best for you, and to give you more options when your usual doesn’t cut it. For example, I strongly recommend at least having a bow, sword, and warhorn on hand, in addition to your hammer and greatsword. Shout builds usually use a sword and warhorn, and then either a hammer or bow, depending, and shout builds can bring lots of support to your allies.

As for relative strength for roaming, like I said, I prefer the h/gs combo for the control and damage it provides. A greatsword is invaluable as a roamer in that it gives reasonably good damage but, more importantly, mobility, which is crucial.

Axe+shield/gs is the other popular roaming set up, but it’s a distant second in popularity from what I’ve seen. Still, it’s very strong. What a lot of players don’t recognize is that the auto attack is very powerful if you make sure you always get the third hit in. It swings fast and outputs a lot of damage. Hit your target with Eviscerate (the F1 burst) and you can take people down 10k health in one shot, give or take.

Food should always support your build, so it’s tough to give advice there. I used to run mango pie like TDS recommends, and it’s probably the cheapest food in the game. I more typically run saffron bread, which is also cheap and provides some defence against condis and direct damage.

Good luck.

You need to be a bit more specific as there are lots of roaming builds out there. For example, my regular roamer these days is not dissimilar to TDM’s Legendary Roamer 3, but there are differences:

TDM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIEauIsDYyE&list=UUW4rDBxVdkxCfjyomSeApwg

Mine: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJARSjMdU2ZZIWhwJagfgC9t3C7gxAYAU+G5OA-TVCFABVfEAQ4QAAwFAoQ1fuSJISK/qZ/h00FswDAIAACwNvZ28mBOv5Nv5Nv55m38m38m3sUAMp1C-w

Overall, my damage, condi resistance/reduction, and mobility are better than his. But he has more armor and regen from the mango pie.

He’ll also generate slightly more might and has higher crit damage, but he has a lower crit chance… especially if he’s not giving himself fury with Arcing Slice (I have permanent fury, and he won’t unless he uses AS… which isn’t optimal most of the time). This is part of the reason my damage is better…. also, power.

The differences aren’t huge, but more sustain on his build (except against condis) and more damage and mobility on mine.

If you compare these with the listed meta h/gs… http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_Hammer/GS_Roamer

It has higher raw damage and condi management, but less toughness than both mine and TDM’s, less cc due to the longer hammer cd, the same mobility as TDM, and I probably win on actual damage when you factor in the crit and the hammer trait.

Still, they’re all variations around the same central theme so pretty comparable. Which to go with depends on what suits your playstyle and what you come up against more.

Compare them with something that’s not a variation on the same, like the Axe+Sh/GS: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Warrior_-_GS_Axe/Shield_Roamer

Here you have a build that has the highest damage output at the cost of aoe cc. 1v1 it’s probably a stronger build than the others in terms of damage and mitigation (through shield 5), but it really depends on whether you can catch someone in a stun lock with the hammer. Burst is higher with the axe build though.

I used to run something similar to the axe build last year, but shifted to the hammer because I found the cc was more useful for dealing with stealth classes and in outnumbered or group fights. All pretty common in the life of a wvw roamer.

There are several other viable roaming builds out there, each carrying their own relative advantages and disadvantages.

Apolo.5942:

When like i wrote above, when you are low on resources and need to survive a bursts, thats the only situation when you use the active.

Short of the rare scenario of having downed someone but your health is too low to get the stomp off and they’ll probably rally off of someone else if you don’t take them out quickly, when would it ever be smart to use the active?

As soon as I see a warrior activating HS, they’re going to get bursted (and probably interrupted) for way more than what they’ll get from the activation. If the fight carries on for more than 10s, then they’re already losing.

And the numbers absolutely do matter. If the HS passive is cut by 100 health/sec, that’s a big hit. If 30 health/s, not so much. Plus, if the active actually becomes useful (like in a crisis situation), then some amount of counterplay has been injected.

Apolo.5942:

No it does not. If you care to read my longer previous post you would realize that there is no signet in the game, that has both abilities that work towards the same goal and that the to choice of which one to use is dictated by strategy rather than circumstance. HS is not going to be exception and it will nerf the class as a whole.

In fact what you want is exactly the opposite, is the choice to be situationaly independent, and not dictated by it. This signet as it is, is situationally dependant, being the standard situation better to use the passive and crisis situation being better to use the active.

If I’m using Signet of Stamina, then I’m using the passive unless I get condi bombed.

If I’m using Dolyaks Signet, in using the passive unless I need stability.

If I’m using Signet of Rage, I’m using the active in combat unless facing a necro who’ll convert the boons or faster adrenaline building is strategically more valuable (for the moment).

If I’m using Signet of Might, I’m using the passive unless I want to burst an enemy who could block it.

Under what circumstances would I use the HS signet, thereby dropping my heal output by a lot in order to get a small amount that most dps oriented opponents could undo in the time it takes to activate?

Decreasing the opportunity cost to heal when using the active and giving an additional benefit like condi immunity is absolutely consistent with the active counterplay Anet clearly wants to promote.

Apolo.5942:

This is stupid, regardless of what numbers they put on it, there will always be an optimum side to it.

Yeah, but bringing it “closer to the line” means making the optimum situationally dependent.

There’s pretty much no situation that would make the active on HS situationally optimal now, whereas that’s not the case with the other signets.

King Noob IV.3560:

why does it feel like this is the only class where the people aren’t happy with the next expansion lol. i feel bad for warrior mains

I’m pretty happy with what I’ve seen coming down the pipe for warriors, tbh. And the people whining about healing signet make me laugh too.

Anet’s supposedly shifting the value of HS closer to the line between whether active or passive should be used, whereas right now there’s no contest. Yet people are already complaining without knowing what the end result will be.

Plus, they’re improving the viability of the alternative heals, which is great. I’m already looking forward to running mending on a bruiser build, and healing shout on a shout build is just one of the things that will make shout builds more powerful than they are now.

Dennis.2936:

Well, Thank all of you for your help! I changed my build so that it has a lot more sustain and speed in it. Hope you boys n girls enjoy it this way;):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJMQJARSj8cU5ZnHmhwJagfgC5t3CGDgBQdak7lBA-TBCBAB1s/wZKBxS5HAXSBLV/JFNM5pLIgnUQAAEgbuzs5ODM0hO0hO0h2Nv5QH6NvZA-e

Consider moving two points out of Discipline and putting them in Defense, swapping Burst Mastery for Merciless Hammer. With Cleansing Ire you probably won’t need the adren conservation Burst Mastery gives you and you’ll get more damage out of Armored Attack and Merciless Hammer.

PistolWhip.2697:

What do you guys think? Do kits make sense?

I guess anything is possible, but I don’t think this is likely if you’re thinking they work like engi kits.

If they replace the warrior’s equipped weapon, then it will conflict with the burst and weapon swap mechanics. If they augment the equipped weapon, then ANet would have to create five new weapon skills (and possibly burst) for every weapon the warrior has.

So, yeah, maybe. But it doesn’t seem likely to me.

Felix Harper.9572:

Chronomancer only got a sheild.

Tru nuff.

Bearhugger.4326:

^
There’s Torch too, and personally I think that’s what we’ll be getting because pistol and dagger are too subtle as weapons and foci and scepter are magic. A big torch would fit nicely though.

True, had forgotten about torch. I can’t think of a character concept to work with it though. I still think pistol is more likely because it could give us 5 new weapon skills whereas torch would only give us two. So far, all elite specializations have brought five weapon skills to their respective classes.

Ultimately, I don’t think it’ll matter. I’m not sure if I’m in the minority or not, but I’ve been impressed with ANet’s moves with all of this so far.

Well, there are two skill types that are non-magical, non-tool based, and haven’t been given to other classes yet:

- Survival skills: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Survival
- Trick skills: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trick

And of the weapons that warriors don’t already have, and haven’t been given to others, you have:

- Pistol
- Dagger
- Shortbow
- Focus
- Scepter

My prediction is a a scoundrel type of dirty fighter that packs a pistol (or dagger) and uses tricks. A survivalist with a shortbow (or dagger) would be my second guess, but it crowds the ranger so I think it’s less likely.

No, you pretty much have it right. The reason the meta hasn’t really changed for this is nothing has particularly changed for that style of play as far as warriors are concerned.

But there’s nothing saying you have to go with what’s optimal. Fun is a pretty integral part of why people play games, so if you don’t find the meta fun, don’t play it.

I find them to be capable, but not especially great. Their biggest problem is they’re obvious as hell, so you often have to bait out stun breakers and dodges before you can get most of your big hits to land.

I mostly duel in wvw, which brings a variety of things you don’t usually have to deal with in pvp. Food and utility buffs for one, but also the very likely scenario of getting interrupted.

I also run a gs, because I’m normally dueling on my regular roaming builds. Normally the other set is melee too (currently hammer, but axe+sh also), which means getting kited is the biggest risk.

Capable mesmers (whether power or condi) can be a real problem unless I catch them in a stun lock without a stun breaker, and some thieves can cause trouble (but I find the hammer mostly evens that out). The exception is p/d thieves, which are generally useless but effective at keeping you at range, blinded, or unsure where they are while they slowly whittle you away.

Trap rangers and well necros can be hard counters in a duel, mostly because they can force you to chase them or be whittled down at range (the ranger is better at it than the necro, because the traps aren’t visible till you trip them).

Longbow turns things around with all of the above. It delivers solid direct and condi damage, and the range keeps you from having to uselessly chase people around. Still, I personally find I do better overall with double melee.

I run full berserker gear with a very damage oriented build.

Iirc, shoutbow is the more common pvp duels build for warriors. Lb is just a ridiculously handy weapon in a confined arena because of the size of the fire field, the lack of things to block your line of sight, and the guaranteed condi cleanse. In wvw, it’s still decent, but not nearly as necessary, imo.

Beyond patiently baiting out stun breaks and dodges, switching up your behaviour is pretty important. Being such an obvious class, if you follow a rotation they expect (either because everyone else does it or because they’ve gotten use to your play style) then they’ll see you coming a mile away. So have a few alternate rotations in your tool kit for different scenarios.

The Incredible Hulk look is boss. I always kind of wished Rampage would blow my shirt off, turn me green, and put me in torn purple pants, but alas. You’ve found the next best thing.

Guys, give him a break. He’s a level 58 Footman…. It’s not like he’s a platinum rank stomping uplevels with a cheese build.

@Topcio, great to hear it’s working out for you. Looks like a decent all around build with great mobility.

I rolled a warrior first, and then dropped it at around level 15 in favour of an engi. Then I came back to it and it’s been my main ever since.

I like the fast paced, balls-to-the-wall style I can run by going heavy cc and damage and, as per Black Truth, I find it takes more skill to be a threat in higher-level play than when I run dps builds on other classes. People say warriors require no skill, but warriors are so obvious in combat that no skill=dead warrior because you won’t land anything.

I also agree with Miku though, in that warriors have experienced a considerable dps downgrade over the last year or more, though it does have some useful roles it can play in a team. Unlike Miku, I actually find it rewarding when I can outplay stronger builds and classes, and losing to them seems to motivate me to improve and find ways to beat them despite the handicap.

Is the signet build with Deep Strike still a thing? That used to be a dynamite way for warriors to get ridiculously high crit chances while leveling.

Having Dolyaks would help toughness, and the killing power would probably help whittle down the mobs so they aren’t such a threat.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Versus Warrior, Thieves have both a lower skill floor and an exponentially high skill ceiling, which means that worse thief players will suffer against the warrior, and better players will carve them up like swiss cheese.

Average thieves can and will lose to Average (and in some cases, poor) warriors, but even exceptional warriors are heavily limited by their core class concepts and will be easily read and subsequently ruined by exceptional thieves.

Pretty much this.

Thieves have plenty of tools in their kit to ruin a warrior, and it doesn’t take a super-precise thief to take down an average warrior either.

Sure, you’ll be in trouble if you get caught with your pants down by a zerk warrior burst, but the same is true for the warrior against a burst thief. Warriors can be read pretty easily, and the big skills mostly have big telegraphs.

But if you’re having trouble with them just run a pistol build and keep your distance. Doesn’t take a lot of skill or precision to do that. In fact, I’ve seen considerably less skilled thieves take down warrior builds run by more skilled players doing just that.

(I’ve been both the less skilled thief and the more skilled warrior)

BlackTruth.6813:

GS isn’t good. Axe/Mace is the better DPS set-up for when you’re good at the class.

Axe has the best dps, yes. but dps isn’t the only measure of a weapon. CC, mobility, mitigation, buffs, and DoT also matter.

Axe is a great weapon for warriors, but it won’t do you much good if you’re getting kited.

While I agree the GS isn’t the most optimal weapon in pvp, it sounds like you were playing against people who didn’t know how to use it. If you were able to knock them down or roll away when they were using 100 blades, they weren’t using it right.

As far as damage, the auto on a gs does a little less than the hammer auto, but not much less (especially when factoring in the vuln it applies). Whirlwind Attack (GS3) can do about the same damage as Backbreaker if it hits three times, plus has the mobility and evade attached, the GS cripple does more damage than the hammer cripple (though easier to dodge), and the GS burst does 2-3x more damage than Earthshaker, no matter if you have one, two, or three stages of adren (though it obviously lacks the cc).

So, again, it’s not optimal in pvp. Then again, your hambow isn’t remotely optimal in wvw, and I expect the hammer’s not useful in pve at all.

An Asura manhandling a Norn or Char is baws. Plus, if you use a GS, Asurans roll 100 blades like Yoda.

Yeah, it’s too early to tell the implications of this. They’re basically adding an additional throttle to the value of stability. Currently, it’s simply duration. With the change, it’s duration plus stacks.

Balanced Stance will become massively more powerful if it goes from the 8s now to 10 stacks lasting 20s, unless in a situation where multiple people are hitting you with multiple cc. Even then, it’ll probably be about the same as it is now.

But if stability skills we have now simply apply one stack, then yeah, it’s a huge boon to cc.

Take comfort in that you look like f-ing Yoda with a lightsaber when you pop 100 blades, and all the other races have to eat their jelly donuts.

Super viable? I mean, it’s viable in pvp it’s just not optimal. Also, the whole game doesn’t revolve around pvp… changes should take into account all three game modes.

And I actually think vulnerability stacking on 100b and a faster Bladetrail would make it more viable in pvp than having it cleave five people. How often do you have five people standing in your cleave box in pvp?

Kagamiku.9731:

Isn’t the whole point of increased adrenaline levels to make for stronger bursts. If it’s “nuts” to use AS passed stage1, then isn’t something clearly wrong with AS scaling?

Not what I said, and it’s not worth prolonging the discussion.

Kagamiku.9731:

Well, this was beaten to death and we’ll never agree so I’ll just leave it with this:

Just to make sure, you’re saying that stage 2 and stage 3 AS should only provide 5 and 10 more seconds fury uptime and no other benefit? Why does stage two and stage 3 even exist?

Yeah, we’ll have to go with the agree to disagree option. And, no, I’m saying AS is a good burst that pairs well with other bursts.

You wouldn’t use a two or 3 stage AS just for the fury (that’d be nuts), but you may choose to use it then because a high damage skill is what you needed to end the fight. If axe was your alt weapon, there are fewer reasons to use AS but some do exist.

If you want damage to change with stages, then the top end wouldn’t be a lot higher than where AS is now otherwise it would risk making Eviscerate irrelevant, particularly when more targets are in the mix. Meaning, even with the <50% health condition, an AS that did full Eviscerate (or greater) damage to up to five targets at 360 degrees would be way overpowered.

Kagamiku.9731:

The thing is, it can’t execute anything with its current damage…..

Oh, but it can. I ended two duels with it last night and another two while roaming. The night before, I put down two (admittedly green) players with it in a 1v3 fight. A few nights back I had a very skilled warrior express surprise when I put him down a couple of times using it during duels… he thought he was fine at 5k health after the rotation, then dead.

It will still do quite a bit less damage than eviscerate even if the damage was increased to 100% damage to foes below 50% health. And unlike eviscerate it is situational, in that you can only use it half of the time for it to deal good damage…..

Not that much less and you can hit multiple targets with it. Plus, you’re going to miss more with Eviscerate. And every burst is situational -> Evisc generally needs a setup, ES often does too if people are paying attention, Skullcrack and Flurry need other skills to do the damage output, Combustive Shot needs a reason for someone to stand in the field.

And I see no one using this skill in pVp, so I don’t see how peple are coming around. While some players use GS, they always use their other weapon set for the burst.

Most people don’t equip gs in pvp, so it’s a moot point. But, again, it’s not an either/or proposition. You use AS to put down your opponents after you’ve already used your other burst/rotation. If they aren’t low after your initial rotation, then you aren’t going to use it.

Edit: Also, the mobility benefits have nothing to do with Arcing Slice, that’s GS as a whole. Which happens to be far less popular than shoutbow or hambow anyways. Due to it being a very clunky weapon that requires an opponent to be immobile to land anything. While GS may be the highest damage weapon of warrior, its skill set is also the hardest to land. Rush is completely worthless for dealing damage, HB requires the opponent to be immobile, and GS auto atacks are terrible. Whirlwind attack is the only good skill on the warriors GS for pvp.

I don’t disagree, and I never said the mobility came from AS, I was saying it’d be a higher dps weapon than axe that was also highly mobile.. AS at +100% at <50% health would be a spammable near-Eviscerate level skill that can hit multiple targets in a circle that wouldn’t require setup and would have gs outpace axe in terms of dps.

Oh, and the gs auto isn’t terrible, it’s just not as good as an axe (nothing is) or a traited hammer. It’s better than the rest dps-wise. In wvw at least, it’s main value is in-combat and out-of-combat mobility. For example, hambows don’t do nearly as well in wvw as h/gs.

Ugh… just had the site log me out and lost my reply.

Look, I think you’ll either have to try it to see or we’ll have to agree to disagree. You’re saying all the same things said when they made the changes to AS, yet the math works out more and more people are seriously coming around on it (just had another solid warrior confess last night he loves AS now too).

It’s exactly what ANet said they wanted it to be, an executioner type of burst that can hit a bunch of targets. If it did +100% damage below 50% health, it would be overpowered and would make gs the highest dps weapon available to warriors by far as you increase the number of targets, plus all the mobility benefits. The way it is now, it’s an excellent coup de grace that does a bit more than Backbreaker level damage on up to five targets and can be used immediately after another burst. You use it is to put people down after your normal rotation.

Kagamiku.9731:

Well, kill shot and eviscerate are the only damage oriented burst skills. That put AS at the bottom of damage-based f1 skills.

Mace f1 provides a 3 second single target stun, hammer provides a 2 second AOE stun, LB provides a large fire field that inflicts several seconds of burning to people inside it, and it’s also a fire field that can stack might Via warhorn, earthshaker and arcing arrow. Sword provides a 4 second immobilize…

Correction:

AS does the same damage as Eviscerate at one stage of adren, against up to five targets all around you, with less telegraph, and an extra 5s of fury in there for good measure.

Mace provides a 1s stun at that level, as does hammer, sword provides a 2s immobilize, and longbow does a max of 6s of burning in a 3s field if they stand in it.

More importantly, max damage AS doesn’t come at the expense of doing any other burst at full adren first. It’s a very good coup de grace.

Kagamiku.9731:

If you’re referring to AS vs a single auto with BP, then yes. But how many auto’s do you think you will get in between using AS and having a full bar of adrenaline again? Not to mention the hundred blades and whirlwind damage bonus from BP.

Again, it’s a matter of playing to the situation. If your mob is almost dead by the time you’ve used hundred blades, built up your adren, etc, then you should use AS to put them down before you lose your adren anyway for being out of combat.

If you’re in a long boss fight, or have npcs streaming in, etc., then it’s probably better to hang on to your adren no matter which weapon you’re using, with the possible exception of longbow since CS will give you adren, you can add some might and burst with Arcing Shot, and npcs don’t know to step out of it.

Could be worth using on a foe below 50% health, but using an adrenaline bar on AS means less use of earth shaker.

I may have stealth edited you there because I added a note on how I’d decide between those very things. ES does less damage than AS, but has more utility in a fight that will carry on for a while longer, has more people in it (possibly not around you), or your rotation isn’t in CD. But it has a bigger telegraph, and AS can put down one or more enemies following your rotation, thereby taking them out of the fight. Just depends on what you’re up against.

Even if you use it as part of your rotation, how is AS still not a bad f1 skill? It’s only purpose is to stack fury, and fury is something warrior is not in a short supply of. It’s mediocre damage for a burst, and supplies no form of CC.

Excluding Kill Shot (because, well, you know), AS does the greatest single hit damage of any burst skill after Eviscerate, it hits up to five targets instead of just one, and it does it with one stage of adren. If your enemies are at low health, using that to potentially take them all out of the fight is likely the smart move.

Using bolas? It’s the only way they’re going to stand still long enough to land both eviscerate and AS.

The telegraph’s not so bad on AS, and I usually land it without trouble. If I were to run that set, I’d probably use Shield Bash->Eviscerate->AS. You don’t need a setup skill for AS, in part because of the lesser telegraph and also because the risk of missing is considerably less.