Guild Wars 2

stobie.2134:

No, I meant if they want to add a same sex element into their story, they could use it to add something to Trahearne. As it is, he is entirely unemotional & robotic, & yet, somehow still whiny. If they added a lost pet, it would be something. As for Logan, I think I’d prefer that Jennah just turn him down outright & have him deal with it. She doesn’t seem all that interested as they’ve written it. I think they actually did a pretty good job in small ways, in side relationships along the way. There are at least 3 Asuran couples that worked, I thought – very touching, seemed more real, & didn’t seem to be intent upon making a statement. There’s something about this Marjory/Kasmeer relationship that seems gratuitous, more so than did Caithe’s (though in one dialogue, they used ‘my love’ several times, to the point where I was pretty much ready to say, “I think we all get it…”)

yeah with Caithe it felt more normal. It was a background element. Not a slavering focus. With Kas & Jory it’s a kind of juvenile eRP social statement. I wish it wasn’t there at all & they could all connect with the story through their background, not just paw over each other in your face as they slide through the frame of the story.

As for Trahearne I never hated his character, he was just wooden & boring. For me it was mostly his voice acting & slightly wooden dialog. His turmoil was at least connected to the story & he fit where he was. The DE2.0 is like a sitcom in front of a GW2 story.

stobie.2134:

As for Trahearne, I almost feel his story might have been enriched by a same sex relationship, perhaps as some motivation for his time in Orr. That wonderful, heroic Sylvari you meet (who had the sword first) would have been a poignant choice.

That’s awful story motivation. You shouldn’t be thinking “I want to see more gay men, how can I twist the story around to fit it in & fill a social quota”. That’s how they got to Marjory & Kasmeer. It’s just a fan service eRP. They need to stop trying to shoot for some social justice price & shoot for engagin GW2 lore. They’ve shown they aren’t very good at romance, so I’d rather they stop trying. They only seem to be able to make people gush all over one another like a romance novel or make a guy get repeatedly slapped down by a woman & label it a relationship somewhere.
Contrary to what people have been saying they did a far more believable job in GW1 with Gwen & Kiran(even though I don’t really like them), Koss & Meloni.

Boneheart.3561:

Facepunch.5710:

In general I thought the dialog was improved compared to last season. It would be nice, though, to not have an obligatory “let’s remind everyone that we’re gay for each other” exchange between Kas and Marj at the start of every episode.

Welcome to adventuring with a couple. If you paid any attention to the story, you’d realize this is par for course.

Right, because of the browbeating & emasculation Logan gets when he’s in the vicinity of the Queen & Anise is just like that. No, they just don’t know how to do couples..

#2. hands down. the rate of map addition is too slow. Story & Characters? no.

Hyble.4271:

Disagreed, and I am definitely a male with healthy testosterone levels.

I think the way they are developing characters is much better. Simply because you don’t like it doesn’t automatically mean it is “terrible” or “poorly done.”

& just because you think it’s ok doesn’t make it “good” or even “better”. It goes both ways. I certainly don’t see any reason to think the “romance” is even remotely well fleshed out, believable, or engaging. So far it’s consisted of pet names, horny innuendo & a few extremely melodramatic attempts at “caring”(which is just annoying & phoney “i’m worried about you” lines)

Facepunch.5710:

In general I thought the dialog was improved compared to last season. It would be nice, though, to not have an obligatory “let’s remind everyone that we’re gay for each other” exchange between Kas and Marj at the start of every episode.

Pretty much spot on. Do they think gay people are so simple & desperate? It’s more like erotic fanfin dialog with all the gushing & starting every episode & making sure they fill a quota of text trees reminding us that these characters are gay.

Sean.8274:

But for all those complaining that they wanted/expected more… think of the Living Story as a television show; every week (2 in our case) there is a new chapter in the story to tell, you watch it, maybe rewatch it, and wait until the next episode. Some people don’t like to watch their TV shows that way – they wait for the season to complete and then watch it all at once. You can do that here too… wait several months for all the LS to come out and then do it all at once if that is your style.

Except that over a 1 year period, compared to a GW1 expansion we’re still getting far less content & features. So all this gushing over how great it is is praising getting less.

Zypher.7609:

Just because you do not get the entire LS all in one go does not mean it will not add up to an expansion when it is finished. This game does not need an expansion ever, and I hope they stick to what they have said and will not do an expansion. Keep bringing the updates every two weeks and I will be a happy customer.

I keep hearing this & want to know why you are happy with about 30% the content & features of an expansion with all the rewards in the cash shop?]

And delivery was the problem in Season 1. Season 2 I would say that delivery is not so much a problem any more. As a matter of fact I think the delivery in Season 2 is better then the delivery of the story in a lot of sections of Guild Wars 1.

Delivery was a small problem in S1. The main problem was awful characters(& the 2 moderately interesting characters they have they never focus on them), lore breaking, small amounts of new content, no new races, no new skins(1 new set? really?), no new skills(3-4? it’s laughable), no new zones(Southsun? it’s basically 1 event & a JP).
The story delivery is only better on a technical level.

This is the major issue with the Gemstore. It takes out so much reward & goals for playing the game.

Yet another reason people want an expansion they can buy. Factions nearly doubled the number of armor skins & more than doubled the number of weapon skins. GW2 has added about 2-4 sets of weapons to the actual GAME. The rest require gambling.

Hyble.4271:

This is not an expansion in which you are frontloaded all the content you can do at once.

Which is one of the reasons we’ve been asking for an expansion. Also, you’re being extremely disingenuous with your characterization by using the term “frontloaded”. That would suggest that LS & expansions have the same amount of content & that expansions just do most of it at the beginning.

The fact is that the first 1.5 years of LS doesn’t have even half the content & features we get in a a year of a GW1 expansion.

yeah, this sucks as a costume…

Oh for crying out loud, Can the game stop being about the Sylvari?

I hope we can finally get away from them for good.

Chyanne Waters.8719:

1
Why do people want expansions, When living story will add more content for free over time?

It’s not free. it’s at the expense of putting stuff in the Gem Store & removing rewards & skins from being earnable in game. It’s not more content, it’s far far less content then we got in the 1st 2 years of GW1.

The fact that people can’t see how much less content we’re getting from the Living Story than from expansions is mind blowing. The Living Story is a solution that provides about 30% of the content that expansions did in GW1. It’s slow as balls & it moves minis & armor & weapon skins rewards to the Gem Store.

Underdark.3726:

scarlet’s true legacy? whiners.

Or maybe fanbois?

Palador.2170:

The cost? Some of ANet’s dignity and a large chunk of their reputation. Did they learn their lesson? I doubt it. They may think they’ve learned, and they may take a few steps in a better direction, but I don’t think the people in charge there see the real missteps yet.

True. I mean they’re heads are still so far up their own awful story they call her “one of the most iconic characters of Guild Wars 2” & dredged her back up in articles on her “Legacy”. I get the feeling they do things just to get back at that awful majority that called them out on that train wreck.

The writing & characters are so ridiculous I wouldn’t be surprised. GW went from a game with the best MMO story to a sequel with fan-fic characters & bizarre plots. It’s dead.

I’m just glad that Wildstar’s story so far is a lot better than I thought it would be. The GW writers have just lost it. The gameplay in GW2 is still great, but the story is a Deviant Art “story” now.

Celestial.8051:

Guild Wars Prophecies was released on April 28, 2005.

Guild Wars Factions on April 28, 2006, released exactly a year after Prophecies.

The third campaign, Guild Wars Nightfall, was released on October 27, 2006

So from April 2005 to October 2006…Guild Wars 1 had two new campaigns, basically expansions, that took GW1 to incredible new heights in terms of new areas, classes, story, gameplay, everything.

Now look at GW2. What have we gotten in the time since it’s been launched?

It’s not even remotely comparable to what was delivered in GW1. It’s staggeringly low.

Been saying this for almost a year but all the fanboys just keep talking about how Living story will give us the same amount of stuff. It wasn’t enough that they were wrong after the 1st year, they’ll continue to say it after 2 years. The idea that an expansion would “suck” to people who like the LS is ridiculous. So basically, you want less content with lower quality as long as it’s spread out over a long time? makes no sense.
The comparison is laughable. Just by sheer volume, nevermind how dumb GW2 characters & story are.

Corpus Christi.2057:

I’ll sum it up for you: the number of players quadrupled with the release of the first and the second campaign as compared to the original Guild Wars 1. Not to mention, just browse through random websites and you’ll see that the campaigns and the expansion have higher ratings than the original game.

Nothing more needed to disprove your argument.

Exactly….

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

no loot, open world raids, autoattack-festing trillion-HP bosses and bad rewards. GG.

I like the idea but I do have to say they’ve taken steps backwards with rewards & mats recently. I really do wonder what they’re thinking. It’s not even worth that many APs. you get WAY more in the tournament.

lordkrall.7241:

Oh, looks like we had two completely different versions of Guru and GW1 then, because I very much remember people complaining quite a bit about the story. But then again, rose-tinted glasses does tend to make things look better than they actually were.

Or maybe you’re lying? The idea that Abbadon’s complaints was close to Scarlet is laughable. Pretty much every post you make is just a list of excuses as to why GW2 is awesome & everyone’s criticism is wrong. I don’t know how someone is supposed to take anything you say as something other than a spin. I mean you even went so far as to say “Fighting mechanics in GW2 is factually better than GW1” when the quality of combat mechanics is subjective to ones taste in fun. But feel free to bring up “rose tinted glasses” & “nostalgia” because if you’re willing to say fun is objective, well, you’ll never be wrong.

lordkrall.7241:

GW1 had a rather generic story at times and back then we had almost as much complaints about the story as we currently have about GW2s story….
I recall quite many people having rather major issues with adding Abby as the big bad evil behind everything evil that happened in Prophecies and Factions when Nightfall was released.

Talk about blatant lie. I followed the game closely on GWGuru & while people always complained about both stories, GW1 had no where near the complaints that the LS got, and the ones that it did get were not even in the same realm of severity.

And Abbadon? bull. It wasn’t even remotely close to Scarlet. & even with base logic she doesn’t fit into the game as well as Abbadon. She has way WAY more holes.

CptAurellian.9537:

This is just … epic. ANet should fire all writers and replace them by you, OP!

Why, did you notice a difference in story & character quality?

I’m sure the Writers wanted Scarlet to become a god & delete Menzies, Dhuum & everything else in GW1 & make the whole story focus around Sylvari.

Most Grindy? OMG, people must have never played MMOs.. Even putting this on the top 10 list is ludicrous. as for people saying RO is less grindy? wha-what?? WHAT? what planet are you playing the game on? Does it make everything in GW2 take 100x longer? Cuz that’s the only way it could possibly be.

It’s so far off from the most grindy MMOI don’t even know how to respond to this. You may not enjoy the game, but using “most grindy” to describe it is a master stroke of disingenuous hyperbole.

Anyone who says the wardrobe is innovative hasn’t played MMOs in the past 4 years.
I haven’t even heard anyone call it innovative. It’s just nice that GW2 is closer to the current MMO standard.

Holy god… 600 Gems for an awful looking helm & shoulders? So … almost the price of a full set for 2 pieces? uhh…

I know Anet has a massive disdain for making any gear or environments from the first game, but seriously.. most of the time they make new stuff it’s so bad..

ICEing.9237:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Megaserver-Rollout-Update/first#post3911271

well frick, thanks for pointing that out.

Asmodeus.5782:

DarksunG.9537:

Umm.. you all realize that the Megaservers are currently only effecting the PvP Lobby, right?

No. Check your facts.

OneManArmy.9732:

you are wrong

This new system will first be enabled in the Heart of the Mists and then progressively rolled out to the rest of the open world, starting with the less populated areas.

The order as well as the speed of the rollout may differ from what was previously announced in the original blog post, as we are adjusting our plans after further testing. It might continue to evolve during the process as we collect data and adjust accordingly.

So… When did they change this?

Umm.. you all realize that the Megaservers are currently only effecting the PvP Lobby, right?

Orlangur.4593:

I had this marvelous oversized wizard hat equipped on my asura as town clothing. Was hoping it would be converted into the piece of armor so I could run around like little black mage. Sadly it would never happen.

uhhh.. yes it did.

They haven’t responded to my request yet.

Tai Kratos.3247:

I have to agree, I don’t like either. The male gear is boring, and the female gear is insulting when put next to the male gear..

I know, the Gladiator female top should be bare too!

So, how do we actually go about getting a refund?

Also.. my previously unlock PvP skins are gone. They don’t show up in my Wardrobe.. How do I get them back?

I noticed all my unlocked PvP skins are missing now… Not appearing in my Wardrobe. bug?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Less “I” and more “we” in that, and we probably will agree a bit.

meh, the visions is what’s important.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Let’s be fair – it’s the only way they can do it and not get called on it. Do it to males? Heh, funny. Do it to women? Misogynistic pigs writing the game.

While I 100% agree, it doesn’t make it any less biased. & it’s pretty rampant in this game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- He’s not living under the shadow of his mother……

-I guess can kinda see this.
-catalyst are what you write them to be. it would be fine if wasn’t used by Rox to make fun of him or if it were something more substantial. it’s honestly the weakest catalyst of the whole group? He got dumped? that’s his story, really? Rox is going for an epic kill to join the most powerful Charr in the army, the Humans are investigating an epic illusion & its the guy that got dumped? weak.
- pretty sure Rox is younger or very close in age & she’s not whiny. & Norn of all people should NOT be whiny. Dude, the little boy in the lodge who gets the Elk head is more adventurous & less whiny.
- sorry, but I disagree. he follows her around all the time constantly saying “we should be buddies, need help, can i follow you?” while she all but focuses on her mission. It’s very not Norn & totally secondary.

All of it together points in 1 direction. I don’t see a "young buck who thinks he can make a name for himself " at all. I don’t know that he talks about his secific legend at all. I know he refers to it in general & talks about protecting that village, but 90% of the time he just wants to know if he can help Rox complete her mission.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I disagree there’s one set of characters worse off than the other.

It may be a matter of taste & what sorts of issues ruin it more.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yes, except help from Ascalon was never coming. Never coming.

But that’s beside the point. I’m saying that it wasn’t “Asuras are the key”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Except a lot of that doesn’t hold up as a racial ability and is pretty much attached to only one sylvari or two at most.

whaaaaa? like every ambient Sylvari is so nice & pure & sweet & truthful & giving & innocent.. makes me wanna puke.. ok we get it, they are better than us.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The sylvari are not unique in the connections to the mists, as the norn have Havrouns who walk into it and can do much more than the Dream can.

The Havrouns can kill Svanir in a mists copy of where they’re standing. Its more about talking to the spirits.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

As for “seeing the future”, that’s a known function of the Mists – the trick to that is, it’s not always the future but merely a possible future.

I don’t know anyone who did it in an even remotely accurate way other than the Pale Tree.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We witnessed them fight back the corruption from claiming the Artesian Waters…

The mere fact that the Sylvari can inherently, in some way, cleans corruption is monumental.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

All races have the potential for being attuned to magic, but in all seriousness it seems humanity has the strongest power of it when the Six Gods are active

I would agree with that, but they actively removed them on purpose.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

As for “they only use it for ambient NPCs”. . . . that’s why they’re ambient NPCs instead of heroes to follow.

That is all meaningless when trying to evaluate weather naivete is really something they stuck with. I think they wanted to go with at the start then backed out when they found how hard it was to make a character.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Awe had Grenth’s avatar actually spell out for us where we needed to go with Caladbolg for it to actually work

You can’t compare the power of that sword & an instruction manual for it’s use.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s not what it was made from, it was made presuming all dragon energy shares particular signatures and a weapon could be designed to counter it..

I’m gonna have to believe you, but I thought if you followed all the splits in the pact Orr story that you could see multiple sources of magic & technology that lead to that & not just a singular line.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the significant difference is the ability of a gate to allow something large to be moved through it rather than what one person can carry through a waypoint travel.

Yeah, but they talk about the difficulty of doing that. you can’t just Asura gate as much at you want as often as you want. & not just price wise.

Sytherek.7689:

Because if the player character is superfluous then there’s no point to them being along anyway.

huh? Being superfulous & Mehnlo having lots of girlfriends doesn’t make characters out-of-place. In terms of who he was, he was well respected person, I don’t know that he needs to be like a movie star. Having a character that acts way more wacky than anyone else in the game with silly modern dialogue “later tater” & have more intelligence, influence, skills, power & lore bending than any character in the whole universe for no explainable reason is “out of place”. How important you are to the story does not effect how well NPCs fit into it.

Sytherek.7689:

I haven’t seen any retcons which were incredibly damaging to the lore which wouldn’t be expected from even the best of sequels. (i.e. Lord of the Rings retconned The Hobbit something awful.)

Something awful? lol no, the changes he made were minor by comparison. Having the entirety of the human history be “well they just lied” is pretty dumb.

Sytherek.7689:

On the second, that requires actual citations before you keep saying that.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue
“But anyway, this character pretty much shows up as an author’s wish fulfillment to just be evil. Alternatively, in fanfiction, it might show up because the author favors the villain and wants a vicarious relationship with them. It might be a consequence of Evil Is Cool, taken to the logical extreme. Or, perhaps, the author just has a distaste for some (or all) of the protagonists and created the character to facilitate a Hate Fic, Fix Fic, or Revenge Fic. "
blahblahblah.. the point there is a kind of wish fulfillment with characters like that.

Sytherek.7689:

Also, you really need to prove this was a personal agenda instead of just asserting it with no proof.

I love how I say something list all the reasons why I think it’s true then you say “prove it” it’s a great way to ignore people. I’m saying it’s more logical to see all the things I listed as being part of a single vision than 100% arbitrary “just happen to be similar” occurrences.

Sytherek.7689:

It didn’t come through in the voice acting, it came through during the run from the Mantle on Sanctum Cay and how he kept presenting following his guidance as the only option. It was a big red warning sign when it came to the Abaddon’s Mouth mission.

So you’re saying that because you can’t choose what to do at any given moment he’s a bad character? How does that make sense? I can understand if you said he has no motivation, or that he’s 2D or something… but what the player can do?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I actually think the idea of “what makes this universe cool” is what made Scarlet happen in the first place. Wrong move entirely, even if she’d been human.

This may be a matter of bad communication, but I think we’re sorta thinking the same thing but with diff labels. I think Scarlet was more of a “I think this is cool & awesome & I’m gonna make her great” with disregard to the rest of the universe.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You are, though, you’re really trying to paint them as solely feminist-oriented and part of a social agenda. And you’re really reaching on most of them, considering Braham is . . . what, sixteen?
But, then, thinking about that would get in the way of your argument.

Nah.. I started noticing this a year ago when I started seeing lots of the ambient dialog between men & women always have some bizzarre 1-upmanship, insulting, mockery or the like. I was like.. maybe it’s me then I saw other people posting about it.
In terms of LS I think there is strong evidence that there a feminist slant.. I don’t know how you could even give a ounce of proof otherwise. the only male in the group is dumped by his girlfriend, living under the shadow of his mom, whines more than a Norn generally does, plays 2nd to Rox & get ribbed & by her for being dumped. It’s just too much in 1 direction. He’s not horrible but there is a theme. I’m sorry, but there are too many “coincidences” to say it’s not a theme of some sort. Especially when I found that Anita had actually visited Anet.

You did turn any character into cliche by writing the way I did, when describing the “B Iconic” group. You did it blatantly, and knowingly, and I did that to prove it doesn’t mean anything.

No I said that everything is cliche. It’s just that I think the problems with GW2 characters are more egregious.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Actually, now I have to ask. Did you play the War in Kryta arc?
So, yes, asuran tech saving the day before the sylvari ever entered the world.

Yeah I played War in Kryta, but to be fair I didn’t pay much attention, though I’d hardly call that an impressive feat. The only reason they needed it was that they couldn’t get help from Ascalon at the time. EotN they were more important.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Not that I remember seeing. I remember seeing humanity pretty much being the top dog when all was said and done.

when I say balance, I mean the race characteristics/morality/abilities as a whole. They were the top race, but they fought with one another as much as everyone else. There were good, neutral & evil humans on a very equal scale. It wasn’t just nice people, a handful of neutrals & Margonites.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Caladbolg? There’s a good case for it not being a weapon so much as a vehicle for energy to purify the Artesian Waters.

That’s even worse! the Sylvari can cleans Dragon corruption with a weapon they made? Also it’s an extremely powerful weapon.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

50 gold says you can’t properly make the case without relying entirely on Scarlet’s existence as an aberration rather than the race as presented before her.

Them being the moral paragons, having the dream which is ridiculous in its implications & it’s connection to the mists, have a Demigod that can see the future(incidentally this goes back to what Scarlet saw & may in fact be more evidence that the dream is insight into the mists & Eternal Alchemy), is responsible for directing/creating the most important person in the pact, are incorruptible by dragons & can uncorrupt things(quite possibly the most important ability in all of GW2) and are highly tuned to magic more so than the other races. They are the only race that is born with a destiny that is the exact purpose of the whole story. They literally have no downside. They should be physically week, but nope, we have Norn talking about how strong they are. The shouldn’t as intelligent as Asura, but the Priory tutor is a Sylvari. They should be naive & child like, but they only use that for ambient npcs. I’m sorry, it’s just not the same to say: Yeah but Asura are used as a plot device when they need an answer. It’s more just a device. & devices just come from convenient places. You could have the anti-corruption magic of the Sylvari take place of any/most important devices.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You cannot write out asura, because they control the gate network, and produce the most effective anti-dragon weapons.

they only made that with Sylvari Anti-Corruption magic. I dunno in GW1 we could hop around without gates. I don’t know how much of a difference the gates make outside of fractals & such. It’s a mish mash of lore & mechinics

Sytherek.7689:

Do your rose-colored glasses let you see someone called “Mhenlo”, or someone named “Kormir?”

How are they even remotely as out of place as Scarlet?

Sytherek.7689:

GW1 was filled with NPCs who were more important than the player characters.

Um.. how does that me them out of place? in fact, that probably makes them more integral & consistent than anything. I don’t care about not being the main character. It makes more sense that way. you can’t have 3million main characters.

I just think they’re about the same when taken as a whole. GW1 had way too many weak points and part where the plot moved a certain way “because I said so” (forced to do stupid things for the sake of the story) in comparison to GW2, even including the Living Story.

Ehh.. I might say they’re close. GW1 failed in many ways, everything does, but I find the WAY GW2 failed so much more egregious. To me the biggest failures were:

Retconning lore: it’s saying “what happened before isn’t as important as what I have to say, so i’m going to change it to fit my story” It’s insulting to old lore & to people who liked it.

Scarlet: She’s the ultimate Villain Sue, which tends to be a reflection of the writers personal desires.

Personal rather than Universe driven story: I’m sorry, there are way to many consistent “socially-relevant” themes that permeate the LS characters. For a while I thought it was just me then I started seeing threads with people going “hey you notice this?” even players who fit into those groups. It could be that it’s just “bad” but it’s bad in a pretty thematic way. Maybe they are doing it because “socially-relevant” characters get a easy pass. Some people will love it because they like being continually patted on the back for being a progressive hero, but to me it’s distracting & out of place. I’m a minority myself, and I find it annoying to listen to “affirmative action” in my entertainment.

(Seriously, who did not spend five minutes watching Vizier Khilbron and hearing his dialogue without going “villain”?)

eh.. that was more voice acting than anything. just like Togo.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I hereby assert your opinion on what is best doesn’t make it true, any more than my assertions it wasn’t the best makes that true.

except I’ve been give actual reasons why this whole time. Much of the time you just say something is the same or give reasons that conflict with what’s actually in game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And I can guarantee the ones which really are good? Beat the stuffing out of GW1 and make it beg for mercy.

I can’t say. What I can say is that there is a reason why I didn’t compare them to GW1. I played PnP RPGs for like 13 years before I played GW it was amazing. Comparing the 2 is idiotic.. You can instantly, dynamically change the story to be anything & can interact with it in any way imaginable. Are we gonna compare the story in Street fighter to guild wars next?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The Margonites didn’t exist until Nightfall so stop right there about what happened. And I point out the story was written around the mechanics of the three missions rather than the missions springing from the story (like happened later). You side-stepped that entire bit by talking about how wonderful you found the Crystal Desert as a whole.

And here I though you knew what you were talking about I wonder if you think GW1 is just as bad because you don’t actually know as much about the story.
I didn’t side step anything, I said having the focus be combat doesn’t make the story worse. You seem to think that story = text. One of the things that made the Margonite story was SEEING the ships in the desert.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the point I’m working at here? GW1 wasn’t really better than GW2. You just have fonder memories of it.

I just think it’s better. I loved the Norn starting stories, the pact PS was kinda bland, the LS just feels like someones personal “me” project.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . really? Social-relevance? That’s what threw this into “self gratification”? Yeah I don’t even see how to argue against that point since it’s ludicrous in the face of other self-indulgent (that’s what you meant by the way) writing I’ve seen in the past.

Scarlet is more of an example of “self gratification”, but Social-relevance over game-universe-relevance? Yes that’s the writer focusing more on the writer than the story. Because it’s saying “what do I like in the life” over “what makes this universe cool”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I . . . I don’t even know where to begin with this. Aside from it making way too many presumptions of a social agenda and by-the-numbers writing. This comes off more as a personal attack than anything.

Here we go. “I can’t actually admit there is theme in the characters, you’re just a bad person making personal attacks” Instant moral high ground. gg.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . yeah, their personalities weren’t all that impressive either when you take a step back.

You keep try to make the sound as bad as GW2 characters by saying things like “they don’t sound too impressive now” I can turn any character into a cliche by writing the way you did. The point is the GW2 are worse.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . think, really hard, how did the defenders even stand against the mursaat and jade constructs when they arrived?

Huh? what are you talking about?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Humans had their time to be integral two hundred years ago, and they did plenty..

yes, bu there was so much more restraint & balance with humans.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They are the best crafters, the sylvari just charge less for work which is of serviceable quality.

The most powerful forged weapon in the game is Sylvari made.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

AAaaand you drop more things here than I care to unravel and argue against, just as you accused me of doing before. .

You’re making assertions that have major conflicting evidence in game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Every race is key to the story right now.

Norn serve no major role that cannot be easily filled by another race.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Scarlet never claimed she comprehended the Eternal Alchemy

We just had short story that revolves around giving that appearance. they been back pedaling the ridiculousness of that ever since then.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You continue ranting about Scarlet and making her stand in for all sylvari

true, she better as a barometer for the writer than the Sylvari.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Saying them doesn’t necessarily make them true, but it calls attention to them rather than giving it a pass for no reason.

No, it’s just making assertions.

I also never mentioned SWTOR because I never played it directly for more than a day and only saw some deconstructions of it in depth. Similar to World of Warcraft – I don’t play it, I have people who do that and then complain about it.

The point is back then it was the best.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Even if you discount the above by claiming they’re not “MMOs” by virtue of some criteria you pull directly from behind your belt, GW1 wasn’t story-focused as much as it was play balance focused.

Of course I’m not going to compare MUDS to a commercial MMOs. that’s ridiculous. I didn’t compare it to PnP RPGs either, that’s stupid. & if you compare it to MUDS, you have to compare it to ever single instance of a MUD ever played. & I can guarantee that most stories made by the GM’s suck reallllyy bad.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And if you’re going to try to claim the story didn’t, then please look at the Crystal Desert trilogy of missions (Dunes of Despair, Thirsty River, Elona Reach) and tell me story didn’t take a back seat to showcasing PvP modes and mechanics?

Hah, no, the Crystal Desert was actually some of the coolest game experience in GW. Were those 3 missions combat based? Yeah. So? That doesn’t inherently make a story bad or even not good. Especially when you read the dried bones stuff, learning about the Forgotten, the Margonites, Ghostly Hero, & finally meeting Glint. The way the environment was set up was an excellent example of creating an atmosphere with art. Often times that’s better than all the wording a MUD can conjure. The point of all of this is that even though they are try to "focus"on story, the characters & plots are stupid. “focus” =/= quality. & GW story & characters> GW2 story & characters. It’s no Lord of the Rings, but it’s better.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s what I said about cliche and predictability. Neither story deserves to be held on a pedestal, for all there were good times and really impressive work.

I think GW1 was impressive in terms of the MMO space at the time. but it’s still better than GW2’s story.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, I don ‘t think “writer self-satisfying” is what you’re thinking of. If you’re thinking of times where the writing comes off as the writer going “aren’t I just clever” then this isn’t remotely as awful as Kieran Thackeray’s courtship of Gwen.

No, it’s definitely “writer self-satisfying”. The annoying social-relevance is out of place & stark. The new heroes are the shoe-horned modern family of MMOs. Needs to be mostly women because Anita Sarkeesian, Lesbians because current social landscape, cute-voice crippled child because pity, emasculated male in the background so it’s not too obvious & masculine anime cat girl because it’s the only way we could understand “different”.
I’d rather have a mildly boring characters who’s personality is based on the game world like General Morgan or Margrid the Sly than shoehorned social justice squad where their game world makeup is an excuse to get to & showcase their real-world social relevance.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . then there was the asura, which I never liked as a whole. Vekk I liked, Oola I did to a lesser extent.

That’s fine.I like Vekk, Oola & Gadd way way waaaay more than Zojja. & I think the main problem with the Asura is that they’ve taken away all of the mystery of the GW. they’ve reduced magic into science & it instantly becomes boring & non-mysterious. It will all be figured out in time. I like when magic is about feelings & ritual. It’s all relative & unquantifiable. The shift to science ruins all that. But story-wise they are just mechanical. A means to an end. the Sylvari are more often the key characters, just because they inherently are important. Scarlet(the most powerful/smart mortal ever), Canach, Trahearne, the Pale Tree, planetary self-defense mechanism, dragon minions… even the humans who had GODS are not that integral. & say, the Norn.. COMPLETELY lore irrelevant, yet they are. they could all drop dead & the story would stay the same. They were originally supposed to be the strongest & best crafters, now the Sylvari are the best crafters & Norn walk around saying: “you see the arm on that little sylvari!” It’s like Worf where he’s nothing more than a barometer to show how much more powerful other people are.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Seriously, I kind of know what you’re aiming at – the sylvari. Like everyone else. Except they’re just not as awesome even in-story as people want to claim keeps getting told. They fail much more than they succeed at anything. Again, if any race is held up it’s the asura because their failures . . .

Asura fail more than succeed. That’s how science works. It’s that the Sylvari are so key to the STORY & that the smartest, most accomplished, most talented, dimension-hopping, comprehended the Eternal Alchemy without her head exploding, completely hip-insane yet perfectly convincing to all armies, master of engineering mortal is a Sylvari. Even Abbadon’s character show more restraint. & it looks like the next Dragon story will be centered around them… uugghhhhh….

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You can’t say, legitimately, they’re the writer’s favorite race without citation. Also, Ventari was sort of a strong-moral character who showed up in Prophecies and his followers existed then too.

It’s been cited several times I’m not gonna go look it up. You can’t compare 1 character to an entire race who are perfectly moral or corrupted evil. that’s laughable. I love Strong Moral characters, but the Sylvari are just a awesome to be awesome & great & paragons. It’s like a big sign the devs put up that says “please like this new race”. While the good guy races are essentially “good” they more gray.

They are, for the most part, incredibly naive and almost childlike . . . want proof? Start and end with Sieran.

They aren’t “incredibly naive” they are mildly naive at the start. Start with Sieran & end with Trehern,Canach,Scarlet.. And if Sieran was so naive she wouldn’t be saying things like “this tree is going to rip your arms off!” Having the Sylvari be able to do everything the other races can isn’t balanced out with mild naivete.

Gwen. Lieutenant Thackeray. Mad King Thorn. Master Togo. Mhenlo, Cynn, Devona, and Aidan. Kilroy Stonekin.

None of those are pet, out of place characters (speaking with overly modern dialog & sensibilities that feel out of place with the universe or acting like cartoon versions of the joker who I’m supposed to take seriously). Kilroy Stonekin says ONE funny line that references WoW. Mad King Thorn could be considered one but he’s just holiday content, comic relief & a light character. I’m not supposed to take him seriously. Saying that he’s a ‘pet’ character & comparing him to the year long primary villain? Maybe if Thorn was powerful enough to take over all Tyria, was hyper intelligent, could manipulate conflicting peoples, had a year focused on him, could travel the mists whenever he wanted, could read minds & was corrupted not just a jerk, then he might be a pet character that fueled the writers personal desires. As for Mhenlo, Cynn, Devona, and Aidan…. You’re just listing names & pretending they somehow make a point for you. I don’t know how you could be more arbitrarily asserting something.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Eh, no. Prophecies was an Excuse Plot to get the characters from one side of the world to the other and give them a moderate amount of practice with their professions in a group setting so they could then jump into PvP. This isn’t something you can deny, it was known way back when.

The only “excuse” Prophecies was for was content. GW1 was originally intended to be a PvP centered game. The focus of the vast majority of game quickly became PvE. The idea that most of the work & focus was spent on PvP is laughable. The combat balance was, yeah, but building an entire game world, with a story focus unheard of in an MMO before that make PvP a tiny fraction of the actual work. Fully voiced story cutscenes in an MMO & it’s an excuse? It’s an assertion with no in-game evidence.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Who said anything about the LS? I said, continue to say, and will always say the story of both games isn’t very strong. Romanticizing and fawning nostalgic over the first game doesn’t hold water because it made many more egregious errors in the writing over time. Every one of the campaigns had at least one, if not more. (In the case of Prophecies, it’s held together solely by the excuse of never letting the player characters discover anything until it’s too late.)

I said LS cuz this is a LS forum & that is what this thread was talking about. To me it’s the worst story in the game. The PS is better. Less personal fantasizing by the writers & I loved the Norn starting stuff. I don’t think either GW1 or GW2 is “Amazing” I never said that. But GW2 & the living story are worse.. the LS being mush worse, mostly because it’s an exercise in the the writers personal fetishes rather than enjoying the universe as a whole.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

As for the last bit about “personal RP fetishes” . . . GW1 was developed from the ground up as PvP first in focus, PvE secondary. So if you want to play that card, be fair about it and knock points off GW1 for being a terrible example of PvE focus.

Again, I don’t know how you somehow feel like just saying things makes them true. When GW1 came out it was the most Story-focused MMO made. FF11 was a close 2nd with worse cutscenes. My friend’s first MMO was FF11 & she absolutely loved it. When I had her play GW1 she admitted it was a better presented, more fleshed out story. Again, you’re making an assertion with conflicting evidence. If you compare it to SWtOR, well yeah it’s not as well put together. But when it came out, it was the best Story MMO you could play.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SilverShadow.3021:

+1
Seems like Anet has replaced most of its story writers, because in GW1 story was quite good whereas in GW2’s Living Story it’s (imo) horrible.

They both had good moments but as a whole?

Eh, not really. All six versions of story (four for GW1 and two for GW2) were serviceable but not awesome. Riddled with cliches, predictable, and just strong enough to tie things together. Especially Prophecies and Factions.

GW1 was way less annoying & writer-self-satisfying than GW2. GW1 wasn’t GREAT. But the lore was better, more consistent, less dismissive of previous events & the dialog wasn’t modernized & hip. " cliches & predictable" Is almost meaningless. There are just as many in GW2. Especially the LS is just bad, they just pic currently socially popular cliches. There is no such thing as an original story.

Sergoros.4398:

Elbegast.6970:

Scarlet Briar is an overused cardboard cutout, rightfully discarded in an alley dumpster behind a GameStop, bleached by the sun and weakened by the rain until almost nothing recognizable remains. Yet, you would take some fresh paint and recolor the discarded remnants to better suit the alleyway rather than calling the trash company to empty the dumpster? I don’t understand your viewpoint. She’s gone. You should rejoice!

For me, she is more like unrefined diamond, that lost its chance to shine. Anet killed her with bad writing. But, as I said, there is still a possibility of redemption. Her Ghost might shine a little. It would be Redemption on both sides. In game and in writing.

There are many core problems with Scarlet’s character. Being overpowered & acting like a “hip evil jokey madman” with the RP cliche: “it wasn’t really her fault!” are the main ones. You can’t fix those without making a different characters. It’s going to be loved by people who buy into that RP fixation, but people who just want a good, solid, GW story, it’s not about that.

Scarlet calling you her special project was a reflection of the fact they created her to be a personal nemesis, her function, her role, was to be the antithesis of the protagonist, not a misunderstood hero in disguise.

Yeah, it was a horrible failure. Unless the purpose was to annoying me out of the story, wonder what the writers were thinking, & make me dislike the entire GW universe that I once loved & was engrossed in.
She’s a classic deviant art RP cliche.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DarksunG.9537:

I am extremely happy to not have the game revolve around garbage characters & implausible story. The thing I worry about is that it will continue with having the world revolve around the next time we can add a lesbian kiss & making sure Sylvari are the most important race. LS is a pet project story, it’s awful.

The same could be said of just about every game ever, from a certain point of view. I haven’t found a game where one or the other doesn’t sink it once you stop and think about things. Or where someone can yank up one thing and make a case for it being sensationalized for the sake of the audience.

By the way, sylvari aren’t the most important race to Tyria right now. Asura are.

Nah. Asura do have WAY too much insight into magic & the world, but they aren’t (potentially) connected to the dragons and/or the planet’s special defense mechanism. They are intelligent, but aren’t ALSO master crafters, the moral blueprint of the game, the the main overpowered villain of the LS, the leader of the worlds army, the writer’s favorite race, have a future-telling demigod that knows the nature of the eternal alchemy..
Yeah, I agree that the Asura are an excuse to make magical devices that can do anything for plot, but they are more of a mechanical device than like the Sylvari. The LA conversation:
“I want high quality, low prices, and a minimum of egotistical blather.”
“In that case, you definitely want sylvari.”
That’s Sylvari, they are just awesome at everything.

GW1 doesn’t have out of place, pet characters like GW2. It’s more concerned with the world & story then what the writer likes in their personal life. The problem is not single aspects (even though saying the clunky, over-emphasized “love” story is a tiny little nit-pick is laughable. The Koss/Melonni story is about 1/20th the size & focus, didn’t shoehorn in the “kiss moment” & is far more believable), it’s about an entire story that is build around the personal desires of the writer. The way the characters are written, the characters they chose to create, the way they interact, which characters they push into the background, which they bring forward, which ones they make look like idiots, which ones they make “soe awsum!”. It’s a blueprint of very specific personal tastes that doesn’t actually care as much about the GW universe as they do their personal RP fetishes. Saying that criticism of the LS is nit-picking that applies to every game is ludicrous.

SkylightMoon.1980:

So you enjoy having no content? Theres really not much to do in this game to be honest in terms of endgame. Endgame in gw2 currently lies in wvw/spvp. Because there will always be endgame in any form of pvp because its players verse players, and players will get better meaning there will always be someone better than you so there is always a challenge. Im looking forward to LS season 2 very much and im very interested in seeing how Anet has adapted LS season 2 to the criticisms we gave the first season.

This is bogus. There are dungeons, world Bosses & Fractals. Going for Legendaries, MF skins, Dungeon skins & Ascended gear.

I am extremely happy to not have the game revolve around garbage characters & implausible story. The thing I worry about is that it will continue with having the world revolve around the next time we can add a lesbian kiss & making sure Sylvari are the most important race. LS is a pet project story, it’s awful.

pixiedancer.1526:

Less modern amercanization of themes of what was formerly a unique universe. Use words relevant to the setting, everytime someone uses “AWESOME” I die inside…..

….I get the impression a lot of complaints about the current characters, Rox, Kasmeer and Jory are over looked or someone at Anet just really loves them but I think you need to work on making the characters less one dimensional….

…..Kas and Maj kinda feel like someones political opinion shoehorned into the media, their main focus is “we’re a lesbian couple.” there’s hardly anything else to them.. They feel like corporate USA, happy sunshine political correctness that ignores the realities of (Tyrian) life. I’m homosexual myself and I think if you’re trying to get a message across it shouldn’t be with characters whose soul persona is their sexuality, there should be more to them than that…..

…..Rox feels kinda odd, she’s basically a “speshul snowflake” cutsie wootsie anime kitten with a bug eyed pet that doesn’t really feel like a charr at all and her side kick Braham who’s just there to sort of.. Be there. It’s just so kitten shallow to me. How is she supposed to live up to characters like Pyre when she’s not even remotely consistent to the charr themselves?…….

Thank you… I feel like so much damage is already done.. I don’t know if I’ll every really love the universe again, but at least it’s possible to not hate it forever more. It’s been turned into a modernized political opinion vehicle which is quite possibly the most annoying writing choice for any story on the face of the earth.

kny.3789:

was just curious if anyone besides me plays this game for any reason other than bashing it.

People complain because there is something awesome there that has been being messed up by an awful story with awful characters. People loved GW1 & the whole tone & vision is totally different for no good reason.

I would rather they make the Living “Story” just Features, Dynamic Events & Reward additions. The “Story” has almost completely ruined the game I loved.

BobbyStein.2315:

I’d like to echo Colin’s sentiments. Thanks to the OP and everyone else for posting your constructive feedback here. We’re always evaluating our past work and looking for ways to improve our future releases. Sometimes those improvements may come in the form of developing new technology to support our vision or improve the player experience. Other times it means evolving our writing and game design processes. In other cases, resource and scheduling changes are necessary to support the additional workload. The potential solutions will vary depending on the challenge in front of us.

Part of the development process is prioritization, so I’d like to know what you feel are the highest impact items you think would improve our storytelling delivery. What are your top three requests?

Technology has absolutely nothing to do with the awful story of LS season 1. I feel like there is an inability to say “these characters & stories are just not good” & as long as that is one of the ways you’re looking at it, then the story will never get better.

1) Stop writing stories constructed around personal desires. Unless the writer prioritizes the Guild Wars universe over their personal fetishes the story is never going to feel right. Scarlet is the ultimate example of this. She’s such an obvious pet character Villain Sue. Her purpose seems to be to aggrandize someone’s RP persona. The massive focus on Sylvari being the key to most everything is another. No, we don’t need “catch up” for the Sylvari, they have more power, ability & importance than all the races combined. you tried, most people didn’t pic them, move on. You can’t force us to like them by making them “moar awesome”. Norn are the most throw-away race in the game, they have ZERO plot importance, but people like them 2nd only to humans. I don’t care what your world view is, or what race you like best, stop shoehorning it into Guild Wars, just make cool GW stories.

2) Make Guild Wars like Guild Wars. General Morgan, Master of Whispers, Koss, Brother Mhenlo, Vekk, & Varesh were cool. Marjory & Kasmeer are hip-lesbian-couple-for-relavance. Forgal & Tybalt were cool. Brahm is an emasculated & purposefully secondary character. The issues come when the desire to write the characters is based more on something other than Guild Wars. It’s why people keep saying this is like fan fic. It’s more about “what do I like?” than “what would be a cool GW story?” This could be happening by accident, but since the theme carries through much of the LS, it’s hard to believe. All I can think to do is talk to the GW1 (especially NF) writers. if it’s the same people.. well…

GW used to be my favorite game, with one of my favorite universes. The Living Story alone made me stop playing for a few months. The Characters are so dumb that I have to actively ignore it to enjoy the art & game systems. That has never happened. Going from my favorite game universe to my least favorite. The direction & tone change is so obvious it’s bizzare. The vision is broken. It needs to change.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

So putting it in the title makes the whole discussion sort of biased.

It’s also inaccurate… The good thing is it’s basically a flag that says a poster is not believable.

Orpheal.8263:

Simply rename the stuff with double names that have different skins and we have the solution.

Umm.. what? I don’t even…

Ezekilijah.9130:

My vote would be for Tengu: they look different enough, and have a lot of mystery surrounding their current status in the world. I love the Kodan, and would love to role one, but again, they are too humanoid.

Agreed, definitely need Tengu. Largo are soooooo generic Korean “cool-guy”. Unfortunately I doubt they will come before the 2015 Expansion.

Lightyears.8624:

Ok, I’ll just let Anet do that…

owned.. Yeah I’m totally sick of the Sylvari.

Interesting.. Something I’ve always wondered about was why there are Light & Medium armors that are PvP only, but all Heavy are in PvE.

In any case, i’d like to hear Anet talk about these since they’ve never explained or even acknowledged this bizarre armor locking.