Guild Wars 2

D/D was never really that viable in sPvP.

In WvW, it’s still fine and completely viable.

In PvE, it’s the only DPS setup for bosses that’s acceptable on thief.

I’ll say it straight up.

I’d spend 2100 gems for that hood alone. I’m not spending 700 on a crappy-looking hoof-man-thing.

Just from a mathematical perspective, you’re better off using an offensive trait setup with critical strikes and Shadow arts/condi rmeoval in PTV than this in berserker/knights, as it’ll provide you better everything.

Sorry to burst your bubble :\

Mmnope.

Thieves are fine. Bugged, yes, and those need to be fixed, but otherwise, fine.

Okay, P/P needs a little help, but every profession has that one set…

Also depends on the format you play in.

SPvP numbers are about 30-50% lower than what they are in WvW due to stat capping and further nerfs to the class.

6/6/x/x/x isn’t optimized for stab damage. It’s the DPS setup for PvE due to RT. 5/6/0/0/3 is the fully-optimized stab build.

And no, backstab was never an auto-crit. It has always relied on 6pt Critical Strikes Hidden Killer to always be a critical attack. It does full damage from behind, and half from the front.

ancurel.3076:

Here’s a persperctive form someone who was new to wvw. I usually play at night, there are very few players around at this time. As a result there are many roamers and very small teams of just 2-3 players. Half or even more of the players I’ve seen at these hours play thief. I currently play engineer, I don’t know well enough to counter a thief yet, yet alone counter 2 of them once. I’ve seen thiefs keeping 3 players busy by going stealth all the time…… retreating out of combat when they’re about to die just to come back a minute later again to start the cycle again. It makes the game a very unenjoyable exprience when one class is so dominant in numbers at these hours and so hard to kill because it’s so easy for them to escape.

I don’t complain towards these players, it’s in the game after all, they just merely use their abilities well that have been provided for them. But on the other hand it does totally kill the fun for me, up to a point that I don’t even want to play anymore. I honestly don’t know how to get better on the short term, and I’m so tired of fighting against so many thiefs late at night. I will most likely just move on, and play other games instead of Guild Wars.

If you wouldn’t mind posting your build it’d help a lot. I’d also suggest turning towards the Engineer forums and/or creating a new thread here asking for help if you haven’t already. I can’t offer much advice with Engineers as it’s the only class I don’t play, but a look at your build is pretty much necessary so I know what you have to work with. But I do stress creating a new thread for advice if you’re struggling as this isn’t the topic to do so in.

Shame you made the armor already. I’d have really suggested Valkyrie. You’re way too glassy for WvW in full berserker.

I’d look into Practiced Tolerance in crit strikes. SoP seems wasteful when you’ll be generating 5 might over 45 seconds, and you only get more mileage on 5 attacks, which for only 15% damage or so every 45 seconds is negligible, and I’d use Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge instead. For WvW, you’re going to need Shadow Rejuv instead of Resilience, especially with health like that, seeing as then SR becomes a full heal and you’re going to get killed out of stealth/you won’t be taking the bulk of your damage while stealthed, anyways, and if you are, it’s likely a stampede and you’ll be dead regardless.

For PvE (and maybe WvW if you find it useful), use Thrill of the Crime. Long reach shouldn’t be doing too much for you, and that fury and swiftness is really, really nice. It’s effects occur out of combat with no target, too, so it’s on-demand AOE swiftness and fury fr your whole party for when you need it, and it applies from your starting location, so you can engage and the rest of your party will have the effects as well.

If you’re really going all-in for PvE, Runes of Strength (but I can understand avoiding these due to cost) are ideal, but Runes of the Citadel work extremely well as they allow for pretty much near-permanent fury uptime, although Pack and Hoelbrak are also very good choices as well. I’d avoid scholars as Ogre end up being more effective in most cases as you’ll likely be under 90% hp during boss fights, and the rock dog can be handy lol.

Carighan.6758:

So what does this do to non-Might buffs? You know, the “other stuff”?
Why fix the symptoms instead of the cause? If Might-stacking is so strong, why not simply change that?

Suggestion:

• Might now only stacks to 5. Each stack has the effect of 3 current ones.
• All Might-application removed from all current abilities.
• Might is now given via Leap-finishers on on Fire for 10s, or Blast for 2s.
• Each class has one way to apply Might. Always 1 stack duration varies. Skill is always on a utility skill with 30s or more CD or on an elite. Elite has 20s durations or so on the Might stack, Utility has 5-10s.

Very difficult to make things divisible into that 5 number. Effects that apply one stack just get thrown out the window I guess, or become wildly buffed.

It really is just access. Runes of Strength need to go, sorry. Durations need to be cut on a lot of abilities, and might stacking needs to be removed on a lot of abilities. Stacks should just cap at 20 rather than 25 (effectively what you’re doing but keeping the numbers for stacking as is), or the maximum stacks should be increased to a large number like say, 100, and power per stack of might is reduced to 1/5 of what it is now to allow for effects to generate substantially more might/power than others as probably intended.

That, or we need to possibly consider using might as a form of damage modifier attached to a smaller power bonus, such that it’s useful to buff the damage of non-power builds to deal a little more damage, but does not simply allow for them to compensate for a lack of attack when building defensively by just stacking damage out of thin air.

Atherakhia.4086:

There are a number of outliers that need to be toned down.

Fire+Air, Perplexity, Strength, Torment, etc.

Fire and Air in particular grossly exagerate what a class is capable of. Take thief for example. A lot of their recent nerfs are a direct result of fire+air procs on a fast attacking weapon.

It’s not even so much that as it is anyone can get lucky burst damage off of these. These do not only augment builds which can utilize them, they just give entirely new effects to ones which normally cannot feature this kind of behavior.

Frankly, I think they should make these sigils exclusive of each other. A little bonus here and there is nice, and the higher scaling on Air makes it a possible choice against Fire depending on your needs as a player running X or Y build in A or B circumstance. Because of the buffed trigger chance, all it takes now is fury to have anyone land both procs with relative reliability. It’s really just kind of silly.

I think SoS just needs a cast time and it’d be totally fine.

Read the last line again. Your in-combat movespeed is capped at 125%.

So if you’ve already got a 25% modifier, nothing changes, since you’re already at the cap.

It’s why people with swiftness and 25% modifiers have the same in-combat speed.

For movespeed, it doesn’t actually do anything while in combat (assuming swiftness or SotH), since the cap is 25%. This is a common trait with any movespeed modifiers while in combat:

“Effects that increase movement speed do not stack with each other — only the greatest effect takes precedence. For example, a character under the effect of Signet of Air (25%) and swiftness (33%) will only move 33% faster. Maximum out-of-combat movement speed is capped at 133% of base speed; maximum in-combat speed is capped at 125% of base.”

Source:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Movement_speed

As of this post I’ve given up with that one. Tried to help that player several times, disprove his objections, etc.

It’s worthwhile to try and help people learn the counters so that nothing undeserved happens. But if they deny any assistance, well, there’s no reason to bother.

If it was just power and precision in its current state, it would be usable to an extent – kind of like budget scholars.

I’d only use them over scholars if it was Power + Ferocity + 10% damage on behind/side. Thing is, so would then a lot of other people. Making it exclusive to stealth doesn’t really work, either, since rangers/mesmers/norns also have that access.

Wouldn’t be hard to do a state override even in code. It’s like… one more method with what should be very simple logic and making a change to states. Said method gets called as well on LR trigger, cancels the revealed state, and applies stealth. It’s not seamless, but it’s much better than what it is now.

Although I personally just hate the skill in general as I’m not one who supports automated defensive crutch skills. Would much rather see it replaced with another effect.

Most people using Shadow Arts builds – or really most thief builds in general – will place 2 points in Deadly Arts for Mug; it has very high power scaling and provides a nice little heal, which at thief baseline health, is a pretty big deal.

With HK, it’s usually more advisable to run partial or largely Valkyrie armor while retaining berserker weapons, and using a mix of Offensive ascended trinkets with the Berserker and Berserker/Valk split stats, infused all with power.

It really depends on how you play and who you’re with, though. The SA stab build is usually more of a solo-roamer one due to the heals, and is used to help mask Thief’s lack of defenses so that a thief can skirmish a little better with heavies by adding more durability. Usually Shadow Stab builds use D/P due to its substantially easier access to stealth via BP + HS and BP’s overall improved skirmishing usefulness as well as having an interrupt via Head Shot. D/D is a much more aggressive set focused on pure damage throughput with limited utility on Dancing Dagger for skirmishing.

D/D is played primarily for its burst damage throughput due to CnD’s high scaling, allowing for a Mug + CnD + Stab to deal some of the highest – in some cases arguably the highest – burst damage in the game. Because of its limited skirmishing potential, however, a lot of players prefer the “assassin” style of play – killing the target as quickly as possible and fleeing. That said, the build archetype lacks any kind of condition removal when optimized for damage outside of HiS, so it’s risky and requires a lot of knowledge on when to dodge what. With support-roles in your group, however, it can be easier to pull off and ultimately more rewarding. Below is my build, which mathematically (food is a suggestion for what I’ve found to be overall the most useful per money spent), which is the most-optimized build possible as an assassin-based D/D thief. It will take practice, though :P

(Engage from Precast BV + Assassin’s Signet + Infil Signet + Steal During CnD animation, SoS kept as a twitch blind/init regen).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVlsMpypNOxzJ8PNRLhs9oVv87tuPCA-TlCBABQ8AAk4EAg1+jSFAOEAZpsiRlgpopIP9AMckA0R9nAAIA3sNDA38m38m38mFCQwYA-w

It really is boon stacking being the problem.

I think some finishers need reworks and eles in general also do to increase build diversity and let the class specialize like others rather than be locked into attune-spam boon builds.

D/D isn’t really a PvE build – at least not until 80 when you finally unlock the Hidden Killer trait. Most people use Sword + pistol for leveling due to its evasion frames during its burst damage (pistol whip), spammable cleaving burst, teleports and condition removal, AOE pulsing blind field/smoke field, interrupt, and cripple and weakness application.

Signet of Shadows and Shadow Refuge are usually considered two necessary utilities to have as a new player. The movespeed is invaluable, and refuge helps immensely in regards to getting out of bad spots/bypassing content too difficult to solo. The last utility doesn’t really matter; I used Assassin’s Signet while leveling due to the bonus power giving me a bit more damage. Others may take blinding powder, signet of agility for extra dodges, scorpion wire, or shadowstep.

Shortbow should be your alternate weapon. It’s one of your best kiting weapons and allows for AOE’ing, extra evades + gap openers, pulsing poison and a teleport.

For your first traits, consider 2 points into Deadly Arts first for Mug, with the next two going into Trickery for Thrill of the Crime for the fury. Engage 1v1 with Steal to proc TotC for the fury/might before pistol whip, or wait with multiple targets to use Mug as a quick heal boost and a means of quickly finishing the next mob. Don’t be afraid to swap shortbow for kiting while Hide in Shadows is on cooldown if you get low to wait on your heal. Bump one more point into Trickery when you can for Preparedness, and then keep moving to 4 deep into Deadly Arts for Combined Training and more power.

Move into Critical Strikes for Practiced Tolerance or Side Strike when possible (based on what you need), and continue to do so for the extra precision/crit damage.

Eventually when you hit 80, you’ll be able to use Hidden Killer, which will make D/D viable. You should then look into more advanced builds based upon your needs when you get there.

Yellow,

My numbers on top were actually referring to Nike’s tests regarding the highest theoretical burst, which albeit a slightly older thread, has remained relevant. What has put thieves over elementalists for DPS in fights like Lupi/PvE is likely Revealed Training on a D/D stab/revealed build and the overall very high power of thieve’s dagger mainhand autoattack chain.

That said, elementalist numbers are usually consistently higher in PvP. While they can’t have a build that does both, and thieves therefore often rest in the hotly-disputed #1/#2 DPS/Burst spots because of this, one has to consider the flow of PvP, skill reliability, skill use frequency, and so forth.

So realistically speaking, in PvP environments, it is usually safe to say eles provide better numbers. That’s not to say thief doesn’t come close, nor am I saying eles can achieve a number on a single strike better than thieves.

Iunno. I’d argue mesmers are more noob-friendly overall than say, running a D/D thief by the new standards of NPE.

Engineers and mesmers have the least appeal to the demographic of most gamers, particularly in this genre.

As someone mentioned, the engineer does not fit in the more traditional fantasy setting which is what appeals to the greatest number of people playing fantasy MMO’s. Therefore it feels out of place. Paired with its particularly boring mechanics and zany abilities which seem to lack a sense of seriousness/edge (again regarding the demographic of players – consider the number of bad-“cats” running around versus the ones who don’t take themselves seriously), the class just feels out of place for many.

With the mesmer, it’s pretty similar. I’d wager an overwhelming majority of mesmers are female characters, again due to the whole aesthetics thing. I personally know mine is for the reason that I just didn’t think the whole pink butterfly effects suited my desired character appearance as a male in combat. The class also has a reputation of being difficult to level (for some reason I don’t know; I found mine on the easier end even as glass cannon shatter, although it could be due to my more advanced knowledge since starting), and quite buggy, while not particularly OP/relevent in the modern meta in sPvP and has only limited use in WvW.

PurebladeProductions.4875:

Currently using a Razer Naga Hex mouse, but if it ever stops working I’ll probably get a Razer Naga.

Don’t. I’m on my third in six months. The current one works in terms of button functionality (first one was DOA, second lost all button functionality in two weeks), but none of the LED’s do, or when they do (sometimes), they will come on at a random point in time – usually in the window of 15 mins to an hour after turning on my PC. Refreshing software/hardware does nothing. They’ve also refused to RMA them. Thankfully Amazon has been nice enough to handle all of it for me since so far all of the models have proven to be defective. I didn’t return the most recent one on the basis that others I know have had similar problems with recent Razer purchases and as long as it works I don’t really care about lights or fancy doo-dads. It’s funny; the only people I know with no complaints are hex users. I was going to get one at first, but I just hate the cheap shiny-plasticy material used on the outside of the mouse.

Perfect.

The guard ending as a thief main is so true lol. Though most notably due to BV.

Calypso.2578:

Shanks.2907:

S left strafe, D right strafe, Mouse 4 and 5 are forward and backwards. F E R G V for attacks (respectively) B N and M for utilities (thumb). 2 3 4 5 for profession mechanics.
W heal, Q elite, T swap, A dodge, Z jump, C interact and space auto loot.

I’ve even got tall/rubber keys mixed in to give it some structure.

Ok, your response looks closest to what I was looking for. It doesn’t look like you need a Turn Right key or a Turn Left key. I mainly auto run and strafe while attacking. I just am not sure if I am missing out on some movement skills during combat because I don’t have the Turn Right and Turn Left key bound to anything.

Not at all. I used to play a different game with turn left/right on a/d and strafe on q/e but have moved to just strafe with a/d. Much easier and faster to control directional movement with strafe + camera hold/turn.

It is interesting looking at everyone’s keybindings, though. I suppose I’ll share mine, though:

a/d: strafe left/right
w/w: move forward/back
shift: dodge
space: jump
~: swap, bound to mouse side button (small hands QQ)
1-6: default
7-0 mouse side buttons
F1-F4: default
autorun: F12; only necessary for prolonged running distances with minimal confrontations/run while I’m doing something else :P

Wait.

The thief double dodged and wasn’t in steal range?

Was he running ANY teleport utilities? Said thief saw this matchup and didn’t bring smokescreen either, or didn’t think to use SR out of RF range and just walk right up to the rangers and engage from there/with his ally also stealthed, or recognize that two rangers are there and did nothing to utilize terrain/LoS?

That’s just poor play by the thief. As thief/ranger dual main, the most difficult part of killing the new ranger is the new signet of stone. The fotm LB glass build is so squishy and overall weak relative to what most other classes can bring to sPvP.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s not just a utility question though. Look at Thief for example. In a GvG sense, they aren’t brought for poisons or stuns. They’re purely brought for damage. One would think that a Ranger now being able to ‘backstab from 1500 yards’ (to use a phrase from another thread) the class would have found a niche it can fill. Unfortunately, the defensivce options available to the class are completely underwhelming when it comes to a real organized WvW scenario. Nearly everything the class has excels at solo/small group scenarios (where the Thief’s options also dominate).

But in truth, even a Thief’s role in organized larger scale combat is tenuous. They’re brought largely because there’s no better option to taking out staff elementalists. An Ele can kite a whole group of Warriors for days and days.

At this point, the only way a Ranger would ever stand a chance at being noticed in WvW is if ANet introduced a new weapon for them. Even if spirits and pets worked, their utility doesn’t translate well to larger battles and the core problems with the class still exist. They’re ineffective at melee range because their weapons bring only damage and they sacrifice so much of that damage just to survive in melee range. At range spirit and pet utility wouldn’t work anyway.

I honestly don’t know what they could do to make people take notice of the class. All I can do is think of ways to fix the numerous issues the class has as a result of poor design. And nothing broken would help groups enough to bring Rangers up to GWEN levels.

But that’s the thing – damage really doesn’t matter in this meta on the basis that utility en masse is strictly better. The reason why thieves are taken over rangers is because their burst is reliable, and even their utility is better than that of the ranger’s. And in reality, AOE pulsing poison is one of the best battlefield utility benefits in the game. Thieves can provide the following either better than or equal to rangers:

1.) AOE long-duration stealth to a commander/core group OR AOE long-duration stealth to periphery to more easily kill said back line

2.) On-demand blinds/smoke fields for further AOE stealth/mass blinds.

3.) Projectile reflection/deflection.

4.) AOE cripple and weakness.

5.) AOE Might, Fury, and Swiftness.

6.) AoE regen, heals, and damage bonuses.

7.) High-impact burst damage with an escape mechanism that cannot be prevented through reflect/deflect effects.

8.) Boon stripping on priority targets.

9.) Equivalent or better CC through BV, etc.

10.) Escape mechanisms/damage avoidance/engage potential.

11.) Better GvG-based downed state.

The best utility a ranger can provide to its group over the thief is Healing Spring due to its combination of effects which are better than what the thief can provide per cooldown cycle, and PBS. Simply put, the “ranged advantage” and high DPS/burst is not good enough to make them viable when fighting organized groups, as these groups, especially at the higher end, are built around fighting when outnumbered and winning due to a superior defense. Damage often means little here, as most fights are won due to the proper use of major utility effects. A ranger is not going to change the outcome of this kind of battle when all it can do is provide effects which the rest of the zerg can already do and more. Additionally, it’s now even more detrimental since so many will be using reflect/deflect effects thus possibly even causing the ranger to send its damage back to itself or allies.

Rangers have always dealt solid DPS. PvP is about burst and countering burst. WvW is about mitigation and steamrolling over other people while maximizing the effects of utility bombs. It’s the ranger’s undesirable utility which will always keep them doomed to the bottom-tier relative to other classes, no matter how high its damage gets, unless all other utility gets nerfed, which is quite unlikely.

It’s honestly more about the utility than the damage.

Rangers can’t really build into a role that can provide sufficient amounts of both. Or one or the other better than any other given class.

I mean LB destroyer does plenty of damage. I hate the pet mechanic, but simply buffing solo ranger at this point isn’t feasible with the updates to signets and various weapon skills. Support S/W spirits is pretty good, but it has no real damage or ranged abilities. The utility is killable. Pets are killable. AOE coverage and disabling effects is poor relative to the necro. Buffing support ad durability are also low relative to many other builds.

What has led to the GWEN meta is a realization that those classes can provide not only an incredible amount of damage, but have some of the best group support and utility options in the game. Simply put, a group facerolling damage and timing for one ability is going to kill faster and die slower, since more time can just be spent on attacking rather than going through a diverse set of moves and channels + active defenses. The ranger doesn’t provide enough of both boons and damage as a class to warrant its use in the zerg/party meta; it can spec into anything and everything, but simply put, it’s just never as potent in what it’s trying to do.

What really allows the ranger to be different in the GvG/ZvZ environment is in it’s name – range. The problem is that even this very advantageous combat style is so easily negated by what’s already in the meta, not even mentioning its dependency on multi-hit attacks versus AOE retal and pet DPS/utility where it often dies. A necro can provide similar damage, but is MUCH tankier, and has a massive number of AOE damage and battlefield control abilities while such a ranger has very little.

So what really needs to occur for them to be included in the meta is for the allowance of rangers to gain a particular edge in one role that most other classes can’t do. The problem with this, though, is that they’d likely just replace something else when this is achieved, ultimately putting another class or multiple classes in the same position.

So to really fix them? There’s not much of a way. Allowing them to counter their natural counters through active gameplay decisions and building is probably a start (I.E., limited-time un-reflectable projectiles on a utility to offset reflect utilities, thus making the ranger possibly need to choose between movespeed, damage, or a stunbreak/evade), and simply better gameplay development decisions which support diverse playstyle mechanisms rather than allowing for min-maxed GWEN to just roll through it all without difficulties; such as shutting down boon sharing in certain encounters, adding more boon corruption/removal, etc.

I much prefer the short duration bursts.

The act of entering stealth is very easy to predict. Even predicting another thief’s movement patterns if often easy. The number of CnD’s and backstabs I land while other thieves are in stealth is so incredibly high that I often believe thieves are the easiest class to kill as a thief myself or on really any of my other characters. So many are not prepared to be hit when stealthed. So when you do, it becomes pretty much a free kill.

Long-duration stealth is toxic. Really. OP’s suggestion would totally break the mesmer class to the point of absolutely ridiculous overpoweredness and put the thief in such a weak spot that the class would just not be playable based upon its current state. It’d also just lead to way more QQ about burst thieves being able to ambush people without any kind of warning, regardless of how good a given player is at examining his surroundings. At the moment, it’s not possible to maintain permanent stealth uptime and have enough initiative/utilities off cooldown to engage in a fight and have a chance of winning against a half-skilled opponent. This means players who look into the distance and constantly check their surroundings pretty much have a guaranteed opportunity to detect an incoming thief. Only if they get LOS’ed is this not the case.

My gripe is the way projectiles are handled in the game. A target entering stealth is barely punishing for a melee character, for all that happens is a lack of indication of where the target is/auto-attacks not continuing. With some ranged options, projectiles do not follow their proper trajectory without a target selected, making it in some cases impossible to hit the target even if the player knows where the stealthed target is. That said, I’m not quite sure if I am capable of providing a proper solution; hotboxes are still very small on projectiles, so maxing out their trajectory in two-dimensional space without a target would prove to be insufficient as a proper solution (although a step in the right direction), as then also three-dimensional combat is not handled, and aiming the shots would be quite difficult due to small projectile hitboxes on many attacks.

Artaz.3819:

dancingmonkey.4902:

So what I’m seeing is this:

Based on my highly anecdotal and extremely biased experience, I think a skill or weapon is overpowered, and because I state my opinion with stronger language and believe in it more strongly than I believe in any sort of factual or counter anecdotal arguments that don’t agree with mine, I believe the game developers should listen to my highly biased opinion about balance, and balance the game just for me.

It couldn’t possibly be that I need to adjust my skill level, tweak my build, adjust my gear, change my utilities, or change how I play, to compensate with a new element that previously did not exist within the game. That’s absurd. Clearly, anything that I can’t facetank and win against is OP.

Or just maybe… you refuse to look at the momentum and swing of the game meta due to one particular ability.

Hint, do the back of the hand math (make it non anecdotal) and realize that Rangers actually now have the #1 burst attack ability in the game (and still a fully ‘functioning’ pet for all things burst/utility during as well).

Or just wait for the math experts (like DnT or some source) to publish.

Absolutely untrue regarding burst potential, sorry.

Unless you’re talking about a GC ranger using RF with 25 might from other people on a 25 vuln uplevel while flanking and with full endurance + scholar runes versus a non-GC/buffed anything.

Thieves’ self-access to might and damage modifiers nets them by far better burst potential. CnD + Stab deals way more damage than RF, and thieves have equal access to damage modifiers under lower-power builds, even when comparing the use of utilities like SotW.

One one skill? Yes, okay, they deal the most damage. But I frankly consider CnD + Stab one skill. If you’re using CnD, and you’re going to deal damage, you’re stabbing, and it’s going to occur likely in far less than or near 2.5 seconds, anyways. And if the stab combo is executed immediately? The thief just has additional time for autoattacks or HS which will throw the thief’s damage way beyond that of the ranger’s, since its pet is probably still in its idle animation, running at its target, dead, or simply lacks the damage of dagger mainhand thief AA.

And if you should do some more research on burst potential, rangers aren’t even close to the top of the list in the time it takes ti execute RF. Hint: Ele has the best burst damage in the entire game by a very large margin.

And neither are OP, and neither are particularly telegraphed.

And this is coming from a thief main. Rangers are nothing to worry about. If anything, SoS is what’s making them too easy to play – throw a cast time on it with interrupt potential and then we’ve got a truly balanced kit and plenty of scrubs dropping the class when they can’t handle dying so quickly with no survivability (as GC ranged DPS should encourage).

As someone iterated above, it’s dependent on builds as well.

For APM, Mantra Mes, Followed by Attune Swap Ele, followed by kit Engineer or pet ranger.
The classes which are the most demanding/intensive overall? Well, it’s also dependent on situations:

Group fights? D/x burst thief (no SA). Staying alive and participating in a fight will require the most skill of any profession/build played in this environment.

1v1/Small groups? Tough call. I’d probably have to give it to some kind of melee pet ranger or mesmer. Thief swings wildly on the list as it’s so dependent on the foe and how the encounter goes down, so I’m not mentioning it here (D/D stab is either quite easy or absolutely nightmarishly difficult on a per-foe/encounter basis based upon builds and who engages who, if it’s a surprise, cooldown status, etc.). Working with the pet is not at all easy, and Eles and Engis, while requiring a lot of button-mashing, aren’t exactly professions (built in a viable way) which require a lot of skill to execute with a reasonable performance output.

RF isn’t a problem. Strong? Yes. OP? No way.
You know what the real problems are?

sPvP stat capping/distributions and skill nerfs exclusive to the format.
Certain class matchups having inherent weaknesses/lack of counters to multihit ranged burst.

Thing is, RF was just never touched since it was so terrible before the patch, unlike most other burst skills since the format by design encourages slow-paced combat on quick, spammy cooldowns.

So RF’s base damage output paired with terrible stat scaling on most builds and inherently lower damage numbers on most bomb skills gives the skill the appearance of being OP when in reality it’s really not that strong in WvW/PvE. Actually, in 2.5s, most other classes can strictly out-DPS/burst a ranger/RF even when they are using SotW.

I personally know my thief with a near identical stat build to my ranger can deal something like 70% more damage over 2.5 seconds in WvW and more than 150% more damage on a burst combo, and certain elementalist builds as mentioned in some other theorycrafting posts can net something like 300% more damage than RF outside of sPvP.

In WvW, the skill does relatively fair damage, especially for how glassy most LB power rangers are now (the ones actually hitting hard with RF), and these rangers are usually quick to drop. If anything, SoS is what makes the build too strong since it has no cast time/can be used while CC’ed and acts as a get-out-of-jail-free card for such an extended duration while forcing counterplay options on cooldown.

And really, there just isn’t enough reflect in the game. I’d rather see signets reworked as well such that SotW granted the active effect of Signet of Might rather than 25% damage, and have more reflect options be opened up to more/other classes/skills. That, or toning down RF’s damage down by around 40%, but further halving the casting time, cutting the attack to a five-hit chain which apply 2 vuln each for 2 less seconds (8s), and dropping the cooldown by 2 seconds, and making HS yield stealth 100% of the time. Now the ranger has a decent burst skill on a low cooldown which applies vuln, a good disengage, access to a hard counter to builds which have more access to hard countering it (one for one the utilities, or in some cases, weapon skills versus a ranger utility), therefore making aggressive play require better planning for the ranger and defensive play easier for the classes which need it while allowing for a single dodge roll to negate all of the damage, but only for so long.

The problem isn’t so much an inherent flaw with the celestial stat boosts as it is just how little of an impact running full glass actually has, especially in sPvP where stat caps and lower scaling run rampant. Ultimately, might stacking on a full tank spec proves to deal very similar damage to GC specs while retaining the obviously superior defensive stats.

The real problem lies in might stacking and the overall ineffectiveness of trait and armor stats for damage as well as just how much one stack of might can increase someone’s damage by. When many stacks are applied, simply put damage throughputs are nearly equivalent on tanks than glass cannons. This is a fundamental problem I’ve stated since launch; why is it that a spec using 0/0/6/6/2 can deal more damage and retain better defense and utility than one using 6/6/0/0/2? Why is “high” damage dependent on three stats and defense on two? Why is it that might is so easily accessible on builds building survivability? Why is ferocity/critical damge so important for DPS but also so weak as a stat?

There’s no real way to balance out these issues without major overhauls. Might access needs to be cut down severely, forcing some skill coefficients up, trait lines need better stat scaling to really make players need to think about stats versus trait bonuses rather than just looking at the traits themselves, precision and ferocity need overhauls to make berserker much more risky but also much more rewarding versus cavalier/soldier setups, and the list goes on.

Eles actually have the highest DPS and burst in the game, although on two different builds.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Geiir.7603:

If you cast backstab and immideately hit steal (with mug) then the mug damage will be applied and you get revealed while casting backstab, so you get 200 extra power on the backstab hit.

Is this consistent? If so, that’s a very neat technique.

Yep. It’s been this way since RT was released.

If it’s a bug, it’s one ANet intends on leaving since they’ve specifically stated they want projectiles working this way in past discussions. It’s also been this way since release. Know your skills, or just don’t use BP while stealthed and follow up with it after using sneak attack.

P/P uses BP. Actually, I’d argue they’re more dependent on it as a defensive mechanism on blind than D/P seeing as they have no stealth access for re-positions and no gap-openers except for shadowstep.

That said, the nerf was warranted. OP is right in terms of how ridiculous the skill was and how it led to really poor gameplay on both sides of the argument. My full-cleric healing power bunker P/P blindspam thief build had never lost a fight before the nerf, and during my guild’s sPvP events was declared the most frustrating and difficult build to fight against of all of the classes, and let an unskilled sPvP scrub like myself play and beat highly ranked opponents. People argue you can hit through BP, but if you seriously let your opponent, you’re bad.

The issue is that P/P needs buffs elsewhere to compensate; frankly, the set has no sustaining/kiting power and too much initiative consumption to really warrant its use. Unload is finnicky and the rest of the set is too powerful for the other sets using the weapons to warrant number buffs elsewhere. The weapon set will remain a terrible one without some really crazy redesigns for the entire thief set or significant trait/utility skill overhauls.

You’re always at an inherent disadvantage when not dual-wielding if you can. There is quite literally zero benefit to wielding one weapon rather than two in any given situation. Single wielding isn’t viable; the video is just a demonstration that the thief’s power doesn’t come from weapon skills and bragging rights for the maker.

Einlanzer.1627:

Ugh, I wish everyone would stop focusing on Unload so much for improvements to P/P. The problem with the set is that a.) Vital Shot sucks, and b.) other skills already can’t compete with Unload.

I dunno. Unload is P/P’s signature move since it gains no stealthing benefits.

It’s kind of like trying to say dagger mainhand thieves need to stop focusing on backstab + #5, or s/d on FS + LS, or P/D on sneak attack and shadow strike, or S/P on pistol whip. It’s a signature move – this extends even beyond the scope of just the thief class (what’s a GS war without HB for damage, a sword mesmer without iLeap or BF, etc.).

I’d much rather see the set see some improvements to its signature move, especially when all of the P/X and Y/P variants are fine if not a little on the overly-strong side (looking at you, dire P/D), rather than trying to stumble on creating improvements to the entirety of thief’s weapon set skills.

It’s working intentionally. It allows people to not need to purchase a whole other weapon for the alternate set since they’ll already have one equipped.

I.E., a player wanting D/D and D/P only needs to buy two daggers and a pistol instead of three daggers. It’s an effort to keep the weapon costs something like that of classes which have a lot of 2h options.

The game effectively forces players out of using a single one-handed weapon by denying them out of the other two skills as well.

I’ve played P/D. It’s an extremely low-skill build with very few weaknesses only amplified by the aforementioned perplex runes. Condition duration food isn’t even something to consider seeing as -duration food offsets it more than if neither players have +/- food.

Simply put the kiting potential is absolutely absurd seeing as it also applies huge torment numbers with extreme ease before even considering the bleeding.

If Shadow Strike didn’t net so much of a gap-opener while dealing so much damage I wouldn’t have too many problems with the build.

Xtinct.7031:

I’ve been getting a lot of haters/qq when I run P/D condi, even from fellow thief’s on my own server.

That’s because the build is cheesy and nobody likes it.

P/D DPS was never really viable. Condi P/D is overpowered. D/D is not usually considered a strong build for anything but 1v1. Most players RQ’ed D/P since BP got nerfed and they can’t permablind anymore. S/D users are mostly emo about how it changes the thief in sPvP and because of the nerfs a lot of noobs quit the build since it’s no longer so easy to beat people with (the person credited with creating/maining the meta S/D build in MLG even said the build was far too OP). There are plenty of good S/D users out there trashing players. A lot of it also has to do with bugs introduced in the new patch as well.

I don’t see why you’re upset you’re not winning fights outnumbered when you admit to being rusty and it’s entirely possible you’re just fighting against better players, especially now with the tourney going on. The thief isn’t supposed to be a faceroll class and you should rightfully need to work harder since the skill floor is lower.

azerte.4365:

Probably 6/6/2/0/0 signet burst build with full stacks and full zerk. xD

5/6/0/0/3, or the damage wasn’t fully optimized.

Likely 25 might on an uplevel with max food/stacks.

Regarding stabs with no revealed, it’s not possible. You get the revealed debuff when a skill you land from stealth hits the target. Even if you lose stealth during the animation, you still take revealed after the stab hits.

Don’t get me wrong, there were misplays on both sides; I never said this was an example of me playing well at two in the morning, but an example that one can pretty easily survive for eight seconds without stealth. Though my build and choice not to use anything but shortbow and no utilities was definitely not helping me :P

Was actually more difficult for thieves before the change, seeing as it would track them through their entire stealth duration while giving the thief’s position away.

People have just proven to be bad at dodging/evading/using CC.

And just for laughs.

Challenge accepted. I win. I even did this without using utilities or food running a full signet use build. I went the whole minute and won the fight. If you can’t survive for 8s against a ranger, it’s L2P. We have so many dodges and repositions on shortbow it’s not even funny. This fight as P/D would have just been unfair.

P.S. Clutch venoms :P

Really? RF now too?

I’m going to just leave this here for everyone to realize you’re not even worth the time because clearly this is a L2P issue…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Rangers-stealth-removal-skill-needs-to-go/first#post4434604

Skeletor.9360:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sorry to say it but

A thief doesn’t mitigate damage by using stealth unless he runs six deep in shadow arts and depends on it.

A thief mitigates damage by dodging and positioning himself properly in a fight.

A skill to remove all armor would be absolutely stupidly OP even on the worst of thieves. Ranger LB2 at least needs a target to hit and has some positional requirements. Longbow rangers are easy. They’re glassy and can’t handling close-by strafing targets.

OK put up or shut up….Post a video of you fighting with no stealth…
LOL….You get 2 dodges….positioning…you mean like not leaving the safe area…
LOL….

Define “fighting.”

I run a backstab build, so there’s not much I can do to kill someone without gaining stealth at some point in the fight.

Now, if you mean just surviving without stealth, it’s really not hard. Swap shortbow/P/D alternating dodges between 3/5 for evades/repositions/blinds for init regen, use your utilities/steal correctly, and and play passively for the duration.

Do I think the duration is a little overkill since engis and rangers have been buffed in other ways? Yes. Do I think it warrants a thief getting an auto-one-shot kill on any given target? Hell no.

And yes, you do have the ability to hit them in stealth. Every single ability in the game except for some projectile moves can hit stealthed targets. I do it frequently on my thief playing against others. It’s funny when you CnD off of the thief which just CnD’ed off of you, and you out-last them in stealth forcing them into the open since they’re usually not good enough to retrack you under stealth, and backstab them after they blow HiS or another essential stealth early.

To each his own, though. I disagree with haste because I find my targets (in WvW) are usually already dead by the time I would expect to gain quickness, and the fury can stack off of ToTC and carry over to another target, in which case everything about it is wasted. With a less-bursty build, however, I can see the reasons to take it as those AA’s would help substantially if you’re already glued to your target.

I take ToTC due to its overall incredible usefulness. You’re definitely correct in that it has to do with reliability, though :P

My initial reasoning to take it because it provides the buffs on cast, not when mug/steal hits, therefore allowing CnD to crit substantially more often thus dealing much, much higher numbers in the rotation on average. It also lets the follow-up hits get amplified vastly helping boost DPS. The swiftness was appealing initially because one of my close friends played a guardian and it provided AOE swiftness while his was on cooldown to let us cross maps faster. The one stack of might is just icing on the cake :P

With fire/force, it’s really difficult. I still prefer force since it bolsters mug + CnD + stab and all of the subsequent hits in between procs, and again I’m really one for reliability, but it’s definitely up for discussion.

Missed the soldier’s coat; unless there’s something I’m not aware of regarding such small toughness increases, I would also suggest moving it to valkyrie as it’ll make you more durable to conditions than cavalier’s and the toughness hit is arguably not worthwhile.

Sorry to say it but

A thief doesn’t mitigate damage by using stealth unless he runs six deep in shadow arts and depends on it.

A thief mitigates damage by dodging and positioning himself properly in a fight.

A skill to remove all armor would be absolutely stupidly OP even on the worst of thieves. Ranger LB2 at least needs a target to hit and has some positional requirements. Longbow rangers are easy. They’re glassy and can’t handling close-by strafing targets.

I find it better design than most approaches. Without it stealth would be too strong and access via initiative would need to be reduced due to the nature of how easy it is to gain access to stealth again. It’s better than lowering numbers or just removing skills.