Isn’t this how conditional CD reductions should be? I mean The Pledge is weak 99% of the time without PU, but the fact that we don’t get a flat and reliable reduction of 20% should be compensated by the fact that, with effort and some situational awareness/teamwork/luck, you’ll be able to surpass a mere 20% reduction?
I personally don’t see a problem with what you’re pointing out.
At least some classes go bug fixes, Warrior didn’t even get those :/
Mesmers weren’t even named~
Real Illusion[F5]: When you use this shatter, you split your existence amongst your clones and phantasms, making them into real illusions. Real Illusions use every skill you use, including Utility, Elite, and Heal. Real Illusions cannot be shattered unless killed. Your own stats are divided amongst these Real Illusions, meaning having one Real Illusion halves your stats, having two divides your stats by 3, and four gives a quarter to each of the Illusions, including yourself. When an illusion is killed, you get those stats back, but even if you get vitality back it does not mean you get the health back[meaning the damage your illusion took is inherited]. Real Illusions, while not shatterable, still count as your illusions but are unable to be overwritten. They inherit traits that affect illusions, their weapons, and so on.
Thought this might be a cool idea for an F5, plus wanted to bump this~
I like the idea of splitting the health pool, but there’s no much point in splitting other stats (except maybe Power) because of how they scale. For example, splitting toughness would have wild repercussions on the damage we take.
Also, considering our base health pool, each “Real Illusion” would have pretty much the same HP as current phantasms (and we all know it’s not much).
I can see a similar mechanic being really broken, tho… since you can’t overwrite the illusions, if you start with 3 clones up you are giving up any chance of getting a phantasm (the only way it could work is with 1 illusion up, that way you can cast a phantasm and get 2 because your illusion cast the phantasm as well).
With 3 illusions you could drop 4xNull Field or Time Warp, pretty crazy stuff.
Thought that might be a fun risk-reward scenario: You’re weakening your individual self to gain superior offensive numbers. Which stats would split would be up for debate, but I feel like maybe the Real Illusions might just last a flat 6 seconds, long enough for damage to be done against them while also long enough to get a good few skills out.
And, like you mentioned, there’s risk in how you may cast illusions in this time if you don’t leave a slot or more open for phantasms or clones, so sometimes the most effective shatter won’t be a full three illusion shatter.
Torch one is great in a PU build. Other than that its kinda kittenty.
Staff one is useless now.I like the conditional CD reduction traits but they have to be stronger when used right. & useless when you mess up.
I’m kind of iffy with torch trait. It’s good in a PU build, sure… but what about a build with just the torch? It’s not even a matter of effort to get that reduction to be as good or better than the flat 20%, it’s a matter of investing traits and skills to make it as good. Without PU and without other stealth skills, the reduction for stealthing is 4.5%. With Decoy, 9%. With MI, 16.5%. With Veil, 19.5% reduction. You can’t even get to the same level of the flat reduction with all the stealth skills we have!
In the case of using the Pledge trait, its Pledge+PU or don’t bother.
Simply put, a bad trait which is wholly dependent on another trait to make it worth taking.
Pistol is a good example. 25% reduction, but you need to interrupt for it.
When “free” 20% is standard that’s actually a bit on the weak side. The extra bleeds (would) make up for it in the scope of the single trait though.
Hm, I feel like 25% is fairly good since pistol has a good CC for it and we aren’t limited to only use that one skill, thus we can potentially get more than 25% if we land enough rupts. High risk, high reward, as they say. For staff and torch, though, it’s currently high effort, normal reward.
If only the conditional reductions surpassed the unconditional ones to compensate for all-in builds, I’d be fine with them. But with the nerf to staff and the 1.5% on Pledge, I feel like conditional reductions are weaker in more than one way compared to unconditional reductions. Either up the percentage to be higher than unconditional reduction or give us the flat 20% reduction back.
Real Illusion[F5]: When you use this shatter, you split your existence amongst your clones and phantasms, making them into real illusions. Real Illusions use every skill you use, including Utility, Elite, and Heal. Real Illusions cannot be shattered unless killed. Your own stats are divided amongst these Real Illusions, meaning having one Real Illusion halves your stats, having two divides your stats by 3, and four gives a quarter to each of the Illusions, including yourself. When an illusion is killed, you get those stats back, but even if you get vitality back it does not mean you get the health back[meaning the damage your illusion took is inherited]. Real Illusions, while not shatterable, still count as your illusions but are unable to be overwritten. They inherit traits that affect illusions, their weapons, and so on.
Thought this might be a cool idea for an F5, plus wanted to bump this~
Ranks they’re talking about has no impact on MMR, so it really means nothing except extra finishers. The only rank that matters, which they can’t farm, is from Ranker Matches, so let the farmers do what they want.
Theres literally no reasoning with this guy, we post responses to his posts and he just says see previous post….. I mean it’s completely unreasonable we did read his post and still didn’t think he was making an effective point so we respond and he just tells us to see the same post we just read to which we were responding too…. it’s like an infinite loop that won’t end until we all just say give up or appease him.
This is because you can’t gather evidence and to lengthen your response so you restate what was answered before in a different way. You create a loop so I create a response in a similar loop. I aim to gather different reasons supporting or opposing the original post. Sorry if this seemed annoying.
The word your looking for is reiterate. Right now, you’re on the verge of rambling; throwing everybody off for the sake of arguing.
You’re not gathering “reasons to support or oppose” your original post. You’re 100% bias without even realizing that the majority here disagree with your notion of closed/private builds, for teasons that have been expressed several different ways.
Build’s are not unique. People may describe a build in that way because they’re uncommon. The only thing that is unique are playstyles and this was not what your original post was refering to. The changes would do more harm than good.
It is closed minded to think uniqueness is limited to how you click your skills and run around.
Furthermore, the majority and I are both completely biased. I am biased to change spectate and the majority is biased to leave it how it is.
I have already recognized the majority disagrees because the majority enjoys copying builds. I am simply responding till the thread closes.There it is again. “You disagree with me, so you must be part of the uncreative majority who just copies the creative minority.” Can you stop that? Maybe we’re just not so prickly about people knowing, copying, or critiquing our builds. Maybe we accept that if we rely on our opponent’s ignorance, we aren’t actually all that skilled.
Labelling people as uncreative or copycats just because we don’t agree with you is quite an arrogant thing to do, assuming you yourself are more creative than the rest of us or more intelligent, or anything really. Truly, and insultingly, arrogant.
You imply that I copy?? I’ve submited several prepatch and postpatch Guardian builds so that rules out your assumptions. Only thing i’ve stated is that theorycrafting isn’t creative nor original because some one, some where, is using it.
NEVER have I said you or others were uncreative or copy cats. Again, you’re twisting other people’s words around to extend this lame excuse of an argument.
Why do you quote me~?
I hope you just misquoted, or this is some misunderstanding.
Theres literally no reasoning with this guy, we post responses to his posts and he just says see previous post….. I mean it’s completely unreasonable we did read his post and still didn’t think he was making an effective point so we respond and he just tells us to see the same post we just read to which we were responding too…. it’s like an infinite loop that won’t end until we all just say give up or appease him.
This is because you can’t gather evidence and to lengthen your response so you restate what was answered before in a different way. You create a loop so I create a response in a similar loop. I aim to gather different reasons supporting or opposing the original post. Sorry if this seemed annoying.
The word your looking for is reiterate. Right now, you’re on the verge of rambling; throwing everybody off for the sake of arguing.
You’re not gathering “reasons to support or oppose” your original post. You’re 100% bias without even realizing that the majority here disagree with your notion of closed/private builds, for teasons that have been expressed several different ways.
Build’s are not unique. People may describe a build in that way because they’re uncommon. The only thing that is unique are playstyles and this was not what your original post was refering to. The changes would do more harm than good.
It is closed minded to think uniqueness is limited to how you click your skills and run around.
Furthermore, the majority and I are both completely biased. I am biased to change spectate and the majority is biased to leave it how it is.
I have already recognized the majority disagrees because the majority enjoys copying builds. I am simply responding till the thread closes.
There it is again. “You disagree with me, so you must be part of the uncreative majority who just copies the creative minority.” Can you stop that? Maybe we’re just not so prickly about people knowing, copying, or critiquing our builds. Maybe we accept that if we rely on our opponent’s ignorance, we aren’t actually all that skilled.
Labelling people as uncreative or copycats just because we don’t agree with you is quite an arrogant thing to do, assuming you yourself are more creative than the rest of us or more intelligent, or anything really. Truly, and insultingly, arrogant.
Only a record will explain this properly.
But it’s possible in theory. Secpter#3 does 6stacks, F2 does 8, blind adds another 2. If Sword#4, Temporal Curtain and Mantra of Dis hit multiple enemies at once, you get additive AoE 2stacks per interrupt. Also extra stacks from other F skills. Also, mistrust doesn’t have ICD, if the mes lands AoE interrupt constantly, the stack will ramp up REALLY fast.
From the weapon set, it appears to me that the mes was really building up for AoE interrupt to create this insane AoE confusion stacking.
It’s most likely not a bug.
Except he was running Decoy, Signet of Illusions and Teleport
Weird. I’ve been meaning to try Mistrust, guess I’ll check out if I can trigger this bug myself. For science, of course. I’ll let you know.
I tried it too, unable to replicate it :\
Indeed. Might’ve just been a random fluke, or maybe it was a rare multi-target multi-rupt chaos storm? Who knows.
Only a record will explain this properly.
But it’s possible in theory. Secpter#3 does 6stacks, F2 does 8, blind adds another 2. If Sword#4, Temporal Curtain and Mantra of Dis hit multiple enemies at once, you get additive AoE 2stacks per interrupt. Also extra stacks from other F skills. Also, mistrust doesn’t have ICD, if the mes lands AoE interrupt constantly, the stack will ramp up REALLY fast.
From the weapon set, it appears to me that the mes was really building up for AoE interrupt to create this insane AoE confusion stacking.
It’s most likely not a bug.
Except he was running Decoy, Signet of Illusions and Teleport
Weird. I’ve been meaning to try Mistrust, guess I’ll check out if I can trigger this bug myself. For science, of course. I’ll let you know.
I feel like it isn’t so much that people are looping their reasoning, just that there’s only one reason you’re wrong, being that this is simply making something inconvenient to do and has no purpose except make balance harder. While there may just be a reason or two you’re wrong, that’s all that’s needed to make your whole suggestion a bad one. You haven’t adapted your idea on this presented flaw in your idea and therefore the only thing we can do is just repeat over and over again the same reasons why you’re wrong, because those reasons haven’t changed and you haven’t addressed how to explain how it could be fixed.
A diverse spread of reasons for why this is a bad idea, thus, is unnecessary.
I humbly am no genious just a regular palyer.
From what I gather from these posts. People who create builds are the minority. (Althought these comments infer that people havent read my original post completely)
The majority favor my prediction. People would rather copy someome elses creative work rather than create their own and fight against me for it.I just wan’t to repeat. The fix will slow down the rate at which metas arise. Even if there are ways to still get the builds, the distribution will be less convenient. Less convenience means slower distribution. (Even if only slightly slower)
I want to see build wars and skill wars togather to create a sense of uniqueness.Um… no? What I’ve gathered from these posts is that people understand that what they build isn’t unique due to the limitations of the trait system and have no problem sharing their builds because they feel like even if the enemy knows what they’re using, it isn’t the build playing the game, its them. So only if the build is OP and they themselves are hilariously unskillful will the enemy knowing or copying the build actually weaken you, if you’re only riding the ranks on the wind of other players’ ignorance.
So from what I’m seeing of your post here is that you equate people who disagree with your idea of controlling build info to being part of the uncreative masses who simply want to steal other people’s ideas. What I see are people who, creative or not, believe that your idea of information control is a bad one that will, in the end, only help in hindering the meta’s progression and thus also hinder balance, meaning that hiding build information also let’s severely OP specs which are wildly outside the realm of balance hide in the opaqueness of this illusion of uniqueness you seem to be advocating for.
This very well is a possibility. However, If the build is hiding under the illusion of uniqueness, then it is not a meta and used by few people meaning less op specs in tournaments and hot join. If the build does become a ridiculously op meta it will be able to be balanced more correctly rather than a quick fix.
Meta determines the most effective builds in the most efficient way. If the meta is OP, as nothing can be more OP than a meta build[as is the nature of the meta], then by hiding the meta is to simply be hiding the OP builds from the balance team while those players, few as they may be, who figure it out will be reaping the benefits of unbalanced skills and trait combinations.
So, as you say, you’re not hiding anything. You’re simply prolonging the time it takes for the balance team to notice something is up.
Thus, there is no point in your suggestion except for prolonging the inevitable.
I agree that its CD should be reduced or its effect should be buffed in some way to make it twice as impactful as Mind Wrack to warrant a 2x CD.
I don’t honestly know why anyone would spectate your hotjoin match to steal your build when they could just go on google or youtube and type in “gw2 -class- pvp” build. Besides with 3 choices per trait tier it’s not like it’s all that hard for people to come up with a build.
Face it, nobody stole your build, they just saw the same glaring combination of traits, utilities and weapons and combined them.
This is not going to protect builds from being stolen. It will instead slow their distribution (As noted in my OP and previous posts)
If you don’t want your build stolen don’t use it in hotjoins. Problem solved.
Forcing secretive player to stop playing pvp is exactly why I posted this thread. Your post is, in fact, a revelation that this can affect the player base count and quality.
Who said anything about stopping PvP? Just go unranked or ranked.
I humbly am no genious just a regular palyer.
From what I gather from these posts. People who create builds are the minority. (Althought these comments infer that people havent read my original post completely)
The majority favor my prediction. People would rather copy someome elses creative work rather than create their own and fight against me for it.I just wan’t to repeat. The fix will slow down the rate at which metas arise. Even if there are ways to still get the builds, the distribution will be less convenient. Less convenience means slower distribution. (Even if only slightly slower)
I want to see build wars and skill wars togather to create a sense of uniqueness.
Um… no? What I’ve gathered from these posts is that people understand that what they build isn’t unique due to the limitations of the trait system and have no problem sharing their builds because they feel like even if the enemy knows what they’re using, it isn’t the build playing the game, its them. So only if the build is OP and they themselves are hilariously unskillful will the enemy knowing or copying the build actually weaken you, if you’re only riding the ranks on the wind of other players’ ignorance.
So from what I’m seeing of your post here is that you equate people who disagree with your idea of controlling build info to being part of the uncreative masses who simply want to steal other people’s ideas. What I see are people who, creative or not, believe that your idea of information control is a bad one that will, in the end, only help in hindering the meta’s progression and thus also hinder balance, meaning that hiding build information also let’s severely OP specs which are wildly outside the realm of balance hide in the opaqueness of this illusion of uniqueness you seem to be advocating for.
(edited by Dondagora.9645)
Now that they’re aware of this, they’ll do the logical thing…increase the CD of MW to that of CoF!
Na, this is not necessary.
I think the most urgent priority for Anet to fix Mesmer is disable/nerf PU, and add an ICD for reflect on manipulation (10 sec) reflect on dodge (10 sec), and shatter blind (5 sec)
It is quite insane a class can has this many on demand reflect by doing literally nothing.. This basically tell you that if you’re not Mesmer, go kitten yourself because you’d never kill them in WvW.
ICD on Reflect on Manipulation, Lol?
ICD on reflect on dodge, Lol?
ICD on shatter blind, lol?
disable PU, lol?You want us to be thief/ranger food right?
Shatter blind is bugged because it triggers on dodge, once it fix, it will be fine,
PU needs shaving to 75% not disabling, especially not with others competitig GM traits that can make it easily overlooked, it’s really not necessary unless in a Sharing boon build, simply because adding swiftness and might counter the defensive boons by reducing the amount of times they actually are granted, given that any of the retal/protect is already finished when you get visible again…
More stealth uptime means nothing… We still have the same number of traits giving stealth, for a higher duration no one will even use completely
We’re just more annoying, it’s nothing to fret about, stealth shatter burst would still exist even without PUReflect on manipulation isn’t that great to begin with, except with decoy or blink, but the CD is so high anyway…
Reflect on dodge… with the nerf to vigor and the low sustain of mesmer, they can’t waste dodge as it is, I barely glance at the skill because there are others much more viable trait to take in the line
Basically all Mesmer does now is -> stealth -> come out and burst > dodge for reflect -> stealth -> come out and burst -> dodge for reflect -> stealth. What do you mean no endurance? All you need to do is stealth for another 6~10 secs until your endurance is back for your next dodge on reflect.
Reflect shouldn’t come this cheap since it totally obliterated many classes’ mechanic completely. If reflection is this cheap and spammable, I think classes like Necro, Ranger and Engineer should have access to mechanic that grants reflection penetration. This is only fair. Currently only Mesmer is able to do reliable range damage because of their new cheap mechanic.
You can LOL all you want but currently when I see someone roaming, it would not be thief, but rather Mesmer majority of the time because those traits are so abusive and cheap and so easy and braindead to use in WvW.
Seriously I do not care a single bit about some of you denial Mesmer who doesn’t recognize how abusive and cheap your Mesmer has become, but I will try my very best to let the developers to come to his mind and make reasonable changes, for whatever it takes. My goal is to communicate with the developers, not you guys. Your biased opinion is not important at all.
No, no, we’re not saying certain nerfs aren’t necessary. We’re just saying that many of the nerfs you’ve mentioned are bad and unnecessary nerfs to the wrong things or at least in the wrong ways which will essentially destroy traits rather than weaken them.
So here’s an argument against fear working: Fear is particularly strong CC effect which not only prevents skills and/or movement, but also outright controls movement as well. Thus, because of this particular strength, it is made to have the weaknesses of both CC and Conditions.
Now, I’m not saying I support any side of this, but just thought I’d put this out there.
Of course, I believe that, in regard to breakbars, certain special effects should be put in place to make all traits/skills useful in PvE, such as mesmer interrupt traits adding to the effective breaking their CC do to breakbars since breakbars prevent interrupting and thus making many such traits outright useless. As for fear, I feel like it should have a unique “break over time” meaning it acts as a condition which both procs Terror when applicable and, for each tick, breaks the breakbar a bit until its full duration.
Mesmop. I like it.
Also:
- Put 10s per-target ICD on Confounding Suggestions
- Make Blinding Dissipation dodgeable
- Change PU to 50-75%
#Mesmop
I disagree on the ICD for Confounding Suggestion. I’d say, instead of putting an increased ICD, make it more skill based. I prefer the solution that stun only is applied, when the daze interrupted the target, similar to Chaoric Interruption, but with actual more requirements for the intended effect (not only interrupt, but daze+interrupt).
I disagree, as this kind of play makes it pretty much the same as CI, just… worse. Essentially, it is neither unique nor very good if it becomes on-interrupt.
The ICD does two things: it prevents the synergy with MoD where every mantra charge is essentially a stun and then it buffs certain synergy with AoE dazes, meaning we can stun more people while the individual target spends less time stunned. Perfect fix and compensation, in my opinion.
So, rangers and thieves have followed suit with [Wind] and [Teef], respectively.
Any other forum guilds [active ones] I don’t know about?
Just bumping in support of a fellow profession guild, since I still see plenty of active members about in PvP.
-The Mesmers
^^
This trait has been under the radar for the whole patch, might be worthwhile to test it.
Honestly I think this trait is mostly used in PVP. In a classic shatter build with the lines domination, illusion and dueling, you wouyld then apply lot of on vulnerability on foes and get tons of might per shattered illusions.
What you can also do is go condi since vulnerability now affects the damages in condi builds. And this possibility could be applied in Pve builds I guess.
What is also interesting, in a PVP point of view, is that you could maybe forget about the illusion line and compensate the loss of might stacking through shattered illusion by taking the GS grandmaster trait, while still applying enough vulnerability on foes
Nah~ If you’re going Domination, every other trait is more useful.
Mesmers were fine, greatly awarded for skillful play.
However they were locked to a single viable burst build, which is now made almost baseline.
So after the patch they got more damage (so did everyone) and can grab PU for the longest stealth uptime in the game whilst not being as affected by the defensive trait stats some other professions relied upon.How to make them less forgiving and awarding for good plays:
1. Set their health on par with elem, guard and thieves.
2. Reduce the increased stealth uptime gained from PU, half would do.*Note bout point #2;
No body asked for that insane stealth uptime, not even the mesmers and some of them already admits that they nerfed the wrong stuff after patch, namely condi stacks.Fix PU, set their HP on par with thieves/ele/guard = Mesmers are fine!
I’m not even playing pu…i run with immob on rupt, pu is gay u.u
Hey, hey, hey! PU is proudly homosexual, but I don’t see how that is relevant.
So this idea came to me as I did the new map-wide jumping puzzle in LA. I also realize this can be either a really bad idea or a really fun idea, depending on perspective.
Using towers or nearby landmarks as the beginning, create 3-4 jumping puzzles in the map, each very hard with, possibly, the Shrine mechanics affecting it. The JP would end inside the keep, and thus a small group or a single person can make it inside the keep and thus infiltrate solo. While they won’t be able to solo a lord or anything, it might be fun to create things a solo infiltrator might do, such as sabotage upgrades or steal supply, kill guards and severely weaken gates, or perhaps, in the case of mesmer, port more people in.
With the shrine mechanics in the puzzle itself, the puzzle will create a need to claim the shrines either ahead of time or have a separate team aiding the infiltrator during the puzzle by taking out the shrines so that they don’t flip while going through the JP, which would be, to say the least, inconvenient for the infiltrator.
These JP would require insta-death falls, of course, to ensure that mesmers couldn’t simply port-reset mistakes to get through it. This makes Infiltrator JP’s very much high-risk high-reward.
Thoughts on this? Add-ons? Criticism?
I like this idea more than the others going about.
Bountiful Disillusionment is fantastic in pvp if not playing interrupt. The stability is fantastic, and together with other weapon skills (staff/focus) and F3/F4 makes you an excellent stomper/reviver.
For example if downing an enemy in 1v1 you don’t have to waste distortion to stomp – just mind wrack for the stability and save your cooldowns.
I think one or two of the boons on it are a bit strange though. Stability should stay of course – that’s the best thing about the trait. Might on F1 is excellent, Vigour on F2 is great.
But the extra boon on F3 and F4 are a bit weird. I could understand Fury on F3 if thinking about taking with Domination and going in for F3->F1 combo with vulnerability and then fury for max damage burst, but otherwise it’s a strange choice of boon – I’d rather see Protection on F3 (5 seconds)
Regen on F4 is… ok, but it seems a bit weak for a long cooldown shatter. I would rather see Resistance on F4 (3-5 seconds, depending on what is most balanced).
PU is of course God in wvw, so no comparison.
BD is good but could do with a little tweak to make it an equally attractive choice compared to CI.
All BD needs is for the boons to be 360 or 600 radius instead of the 240 it currently gives. Imo it is a contender to CI and PU, as it is a REALLY good trait.
kitten , that’s quite a buff! :o
I wouldn’t say no to a large radius.
Well, right now you have to be in near-melee range of your allies, its ridiculous. The range of your own IP shatter should be reasonable, though 600 radius would be… well, fun, no doubt.
Mistrust, in order to compete with DE, should be stronger especially in regards to PB and CI also being interrupt traits. Though I understand the potential idea here for a WvW mesmer where clones can’t survive in zergs and Mistrust being an AoE effect with AoE interrupts. I’ll have to test it, though I’m skeptical of its use in PvP.
I feel CS on interrupt is a bad idea, as many have said in terms with CI. Redundant and thus useless. Increased ICD is simpler idea, though some have said have an ICD per foe like Ineptitude so that you can get AoE stuns but not spammable stuns via MoD.
Thanks for everyone’s thoughts. Good points by everyone. I think CS is strong enough to be a GM and go against PB.
First of all, PB is an interrupt trait. It only process on “interrupt”, this requires a timing/luck on the player in order to take advantage of it.
Whereas CS is like a sledge hammer, there is no real skill in it. Daze becomes a stun. That’s it. Yes, the Mesmer needs to watch for enemy dodges and stabilty, etc. But that’s the same for PB.
And by converting those daze’s to stuns, it’s not just MoD that becomes a hammer. There is Chaos Storm, there is Diversion, there is OH Sword, there is Magic Bullet (2nd bounce) All of these become stunning weapons in the Mesmer’s “toolbox”.
They are in a sense, “opposite sides” of the same coin. They both can be considered “lockdown” playstyles. They are different enough and strong enough in there own way to stand alone and offer different play styles.
I never stated that DE was build defining. I stated that “Roger/ANet” said it was “build defining”. Since that is ANet’s definition of a “build defining trait”, how can CS not be “build defining”?
And don’t forget about CI. In the current setup, a Mesmer can grab ALL three PB, CS and CI. Although, I believe doing so would be “wasting” a GM trait, that does not stop a player from doing it. Moving CS up to GM, would again be a more tactical decision on the player.
I get your points, but here’s why I think CS isn’t powerful enough to be GM:
What is a stun besides a daze that stops movement for a small time? It is a powerful break in combat, I agree, but in that same category with the 5s ICD one can say that your chance of interrupting and thus proccing the immob on CI is just as effective. I don’t believe that anyone will give up the powerful option of landing definitive interrupts in a fight for removing movement every five seconds. The theoretical value of the traits’ strength puts PB as a clear leader over CS.
I take no offense at all, kind sirs. I’ve just been a little salty that, being the one class in the game with a crapload of active defenses, that I have next to no idea when to use my defenses because mesmers can just kitten around in stealth and blow me into space. When I survive vs a mesmer, its because I JUST managed to whiff them and quickly counter attack before they lol@me, port off and go back into stealth. The OP’s post seemed very well thought out and laid out which is why I went ahead and agreed with it. Since you boys are so well versed with mesmer, why not squash all of these nerf threads and make one grand thread of your own with all of your suggested tweaks. I’d hate it, too, if my favourite class was nerfed by people who have little grasp of how it works. If you stay silent and let the “naysayers” convince anet to destroy your class, you’ve got no one to blame but yourselves.
We haven’t made a PvP thread, I believe, but on the Mesmer Forums we’re trying to give our best balance advice for our class, many of them appropriate nerfs and I don’t think I’ve seen any asking for buffs that aren’t reversions of knee-jerk nerfs that happened within days of the patch.
I don’t play mes………From what I can tell, as far as mesmer specific issues go, the fury uptime needs to be cut down……..
Just going to quote myself:
“2) The fury uptime only applies to phantasms. The mesmer player themselves don’t get fury. Nothing wrong with this trait, it’s the same as prepatch.”Why are people who don’t even play mesmer requesting a fix to trait that they didn’t test? ><
Probably talking about Master Fencer, a trait that gives 5s of Fury on kitten ICD when striking a foe below 75% health threshold, thus 100% uptime against that particular foe. Variety of ways to balance this, if its proven to be too strong, the least thought out of which is the OP’s ICD increase, which I personally disagree with.
Umm…if you mean the sword trait, ‘Fencer Finesse’, that only grants ferocity stacks.
No, I mean the minor trait that replaced Confusing Combatants, Master Fencer. Take another look at the line, it doesn’t stick out much so I don’t blame you for not noticing.
PB is build defining because it makes use of all interrupts available, thus defining any Lockdown build no matter what weapons or skills equipped. CS, on the other hand, only makes use of daze which, while we have a lot of, is not our sole source of CC, thus CS is more appropriate to be a secondary lockdown trait than the defining one.
Sounds like a solid idea to me
I don’t play mes………From what I can tell, as far as mesmer specific issues go, the fury uptime needs to be cut down……..
Just going to quote myself:
“2) The fury uptime only applies to phantasms. The mesmer player themselves don’t get fury. Nothing wrong with this trait, it’s the same as prepatch.”Why are people who don’t even play mesmer requesting a fix to trait that they didn’t test? ><
Probably talking about Master Fencer, a trait that gives 5s of Fury on kitten ICD when striking a foe below 75% health threshold, thus 100% uptime against that particular foe. Variety of ways to balance this, if its proven to be too strong, the least thought out of which is the OP’s ICD increase, which I personally disagree with.
I don’t play mes (I have one at 80 that I just fed tomes to), but you finally shed some light and helped me understand what the hell was going on. Personally, I agree with everything you said except for your inspiration point. Being a medi guard main, thanks to the patch, I can take virtues for beautiful boons (the whole reason why guardian was meta for the longest time), honor for the might and vit, AND take all the major DPS traits from valor. Of course, if I took zeal, I’d get a LITTLE more damage (actually, it’d be 22% more) but trying to deal with those god awful symbols realistically makes it 12% and honor actually offers me a more solid choice. I don’t have a problem with a sustain line (thieves get shadow arts, eles have water/arcana, engis can blast the hell out of their own water fields, etc). From what I can tell, as far as mesmer specific issues go, the fury uptime needs to be cut down and the CS trait needs to work on an actual interrupt. The rest of the issues is stealth related, and honestly, I have no idea how that’ll be fixed without either making it useless or having it become OP.
Also, lol@cancer-mancer.
No offense, sir, but you don’t have an understanding of what you’re talking about. We mesmers do require nerfs for balancing, as does every other profession, but there are the right nerfs and the straight-out wrong ones. The OP has admitted he doesn’t have a good understanding or experience with many of the traits he’s talking about nerfing and is even advocating the always-a-bad-idea of double-nerfing a trait.
If you knew about mesmers, you’d know that CS on interrupt would be redundant as it would, as Chaos Archangel pointed out earlier, intersect with CI which performs a similar effect on interrupt, therefore this nerf would be much more than a nerf, but essentially creating two traits that are almost identical in purpose and function, thus a badly thought out nerf.
See, here’s the thing… CS would never be taken over PB. The fact that its used now is that you can combine it with PB to make lockdown strong, not that its suddenly become better. PB is the whole thing that makes lockdown work in Domination. CS wasn’t taken when it was a GM without an ICD with Halting Strike in Adept and it won’t be taken now as a GM with an ICD while competing against PB. Your suggestion, I hate to say, will not work.
I agree with CS changes up until the interrupt point, which I disagree with it only proccing on interrupt with the 10s ICD. Double nerfing is never a good way of finding the “good place” for balance, so take things one at a time please.
I agree with most of the rest except Harmonious Mantras and the Dueling Minor. I haven’t heard any complaints about either of these nor do I see anything wrong with them currently, correct me if I’m wrong.
Just tag a internal cooldown of 1 or 2 seconds on it, and it’s fine. Then it’ll be ‘on par’ with Soothing Mist and Virtue of Resolve’s healing.
While still keeping the Mesmer motto of ‘Doing 3 times the effort for the same result.’
The radius of the effect is MUCH SMALLER than the above mentioned skills too.As it stands with it’s ICD it makes it a useless, forgotten, random proc trait that’s essentially ‘Sigil of Water’ on our attacks. Only I think that actually has a larger area, and a shorter cooldown, and probably scales better with healing power.
^^ I support this.
More like, I don’t think anyone posted the standard Condi Shatter build because it has a sort of obvious optimization to it that the basic set up is predictable and likely widely known, thus an unclaimable build.
Lots of mesmers are asking for nerfs. We know what’s broken, and we’re afraid the devs don’t and will nerf the wrong thing or simply over-nerf it. To my point, Chaotic Dampening and Healing Prism were over-nerfs to making these particular traits weak, which is what the mesmer community is very used to and expects.
Those mesmers saying L2P… well, I guess they’re just a bit salty how people are all up in the mesmer’s grill when this is the first time in a while mesmers have been in a good place.
Not sure how two mesmers could remain permanently invis. I suspect there’s other classes at play too and maybe the OP just doesn’t understand the mechanics?
The timer on PU only adds two seconds to existing stealth for a total of 10 seconds with the elite skill. Other invis spells are 5secs or less of stealth. Then all have a really really long cooldown time, so you can’t pop invis over and over to get permastealth.
New PU doubles stealth uptime, so Mass Invis is 10 seconds, Veil for 4 seconds, Decoy and Prestige for 6 each. So with 2 mesmers, they’d get 20 seconds from Mass Invis, 8 seconds from Veil, and 12 from both Decoy and Prestige since its not shared. Thus a total of… 40 seconds of stealth. Considering that Decoy and Prestige, if used first, would be just off CD, then another 12, so 52 seconds of stealth.
Still, this is taking 2 mesmers to get and only affecting each other, impossible to cover a whole zerg in such a way.
a thief can drop black powered and yeah people blast it but that takes time, people have to stop moving and call downs. I have seen on my server 4-5 mesmers using mass inivis. the result is 60 seconds of zerg wide stealth
A zerg of 10? lol, stop making up stuff.
who said 10?
mind you this was on the patch day, a guild grp of 20 did have 60 seconds of stealth because of mass invisible.
You said 4-5 mesmers. Mass Invis only stealths up to 10 people for 10 seconds if traited. If so, any more than 10 people would be getting up to 50 seconds, 60 if there was indeed a sixth mesmer, and so the inconsistency in your statement. A guild of 20 could not have gained 60 seconds of stealth from a party of 5 mesmers.
Indeed. Has this been added to our list of over-nerfs along with staff? The current implication not only makes the trait boring, where it can’t be any stronger than it is via synergy [though it can get mush weaker…].
If it is warhorn, then Ele’s are likely to get an F5 just like Mesmers did for having just an offhand~
I believe the motivation was things like this in which professions which could provide the mesmer the means to heal itself constantly could thus multiply Healing Prism’s theorized effectiveness to become a very powerful support.
I personally don’t like seeing ICD’s over 5 seconds on non-defensive techniques [like Mirror of Anguish] since it makes active-play somewhat harder when you can’t tell if you’ll proc that one trait or not since the CD isn’t displayed.
At the very least, give us a buff icon to tell us when its up.
Recent change to Mesmer’s Inspiration minor trait:
Mesmer
- Healing Prism: Increased the base healing by 200%. Added a 10-second internal cooldown.
Thoughts?
“The tankiness of necros is pretty ridiculous”
“Survivability is just silly good”Sounds like you got a problem with it to me.
You took it out of context like any fanboi would do. Here, let allow me:
“The damage is low, but survivability is just silly good.”
That sounds like it’s a balance, which I am promoting in my message. Duh. Lol.Nice try though.
Nah, to be honest, the tone of your message sounded like you had a problem with it when you used extremes like “ridiculous” or “silly good”. Don’t think he was trying to put words in your mouth, it legitimately sounded like you were saying necro tankiness was a problem despite the low damage. May not have been what you meant or what your message, taken with the most literal reading, was saying, but what most people [including myself and that gentleman before] probably heard was “Bunker Necro has OP survivability.”
Disagree on staff’s daze. The daze on staff is an important option that lockdown mesmers more than often choose staff for. PU, however, should just be straight nerfed down to less stealth duration, no need to move MtD out of illusions.