Guild Wars 2

jheryn.8390:

The final thing I would like to point out is that the goal of any sequel whether it be a game or book or movie is that the makers are relying on the retention and fandom of the originals in order to sell the sequel. The sequel almost always is a continuation of the original in some way. Much of the story that was in GW1 has been ignored IMO in GW2. So ancient histories may be ignored by societies, but GW1 was just history of less than a year and a half for me personally. I want to see that games lore heavily infused into the game I am playing now. GW1 is NOT ancient history to those of us who played it and expect to see it heavily depicted in GW2.

And my point is that expecting a population concerned with daily survival to care about history is neither realistic, nor something the developers are wishing to illustrate. The Priory may keep detailed records, and people who work for them will know the history of the world, keeping it safe until such time that they can disseminate it back into the general population, if ever, but the general population will neither know, nor care about, their own history, save for what they cling to as part of their coping mechanisms (re: Ebonhawke). Expecting otherwise is unrealistic.

As for what the developers did with GW1 to GW2, that’s simple. They provided you with a world and said, here’s what’s happened, and welcome to the new world. What you expected and what you got are either the same or different based on your own anticipation, but that’s not the fault of the developers for not reading your mind and providing you with the game you wanted them to make.

I think they did a lovely job on GW2, and absent a few things I would have preferred they put in from a game features standpoint, the lackluster manner they handled the armor for the Charr and Asura, and the continued failing on their part to realize that both races will remain underutilized until THEY fix them, it’s a great game. They took the GW1 world I used to play and enjoy, updated it with a fairly considerate motif that allowed for 250 years of events to occur, and then said “Well, here’s the world after all this **** happened to it. Have fun learning about it and making your way through it!” And I have. Your online experience may vary.

That’s it! If I make another alt, I’m making it a female Charr! I still need a Warrior.

Dustfinger.9510:

That was good info Drakkon. It displayed how the example of the fossa isn’t unusual in the slightest. And it was a more indepth understanding of the principle than I actually knew about.

I’m a modern Renaissance Man. I know a fair bit about a wide variety of subjects, but I don’t claim to be master of any. Zoology, Astrophysics, Political Science, Physics, Chemistry, and Psychology, not to mention Philosophy (and what Renaissance Man would be complete without that?) are pretty important to me. I do get a few facts wrong every so often. Can’t be right all the time. So… Glad to be of help.

Dustfinger.9510:

Beng cat-like doesn’t have to have to mean that charr evolved from any type of cat at all. It just means that what they did evolve from (if anything) took the niche that cats tend to take in RL. e.g.: The Fossa of Madagascar is related to the mongoose but has taken the niche that cats tend to take everywhere else.

Every predator in the world is morphologically divided into one of three branches: Feliform, Caniform and Primate. Genetically they are all of disparate species, but they zoologists group them on branches according to the somewhat outdated notions of morphology. This descended from the notion during the early years of genetics that creatures with similar physical characteristics must have similar genetic ones creating those characteristics. We now know that isn’t the case, and wildly divergent species can have similar physical characteristics based off very different genetic profiles.

For instance, Hyenas are caniform predators, originally believed to be related to the wild dogs of Africa, and yet we know now that they share many more genetic traits in common with felines than canines. Still, the canine muzzle, the general body shape, and the pack structural behavior all lead scientists to believe this was a canine.

Generally speaking, the feliforms contain mustelids (weasels, ferrets, badgers, otters and stoats), mephids (skunks), mongooses (no, the plural is not mongeese), as well as a smattering of others, in addition to felines.

Caniform predators include bears, procyonids (raccoons), and dogs, primarily, with only a handful of other families that are constantly being reshuffled as we learn more about their genetics.

Primates, of course, include the great apes, chimps, lemurs and humans.

Also, I said predators, not carnivores. I realize most of the species I talked about aren’t strictly carnivorous. But they are all predatory. They hunt.

So where are the Charr? Feliform, certainly. But where do they exist on a genetic bias? That is neither known, nor knowable, as it is outside the scope of the game, and therefore never likely to be commented on officially.

Oh, and this wasn’t a disagreement with Dustfinger, but and expounding on his point.

Narcemus.1348:

You don’t get the point. In the dialogue that I was talking about the scholars discuss the actions of Prophecies specifically as if it was myth and nothing more. It seems something completely forgotten in today’s society, that is what hurts.

Ask 100 students in America today who won the French-Indian War, you’re as likely to get “France/the French”, “the Indians” as “the Confederacy”. History isn’t something people care about, even if they should. Ancient History is even worse. Give it another hundred years, particularly under conservative rule, and you’ll see history remanded to pockets of outcasts who cling to it like monks hanging onto scripture. Yes, it’s sad, but the practical day to day concerns of simply existing outweigh most people’s need to know where they came from. It only takes 2 generations for a community to go from well educated to culturally starved. America is in its second generation. Gen X saw the first dip in standard of living, living worse off than their parents, and Gen Y has seen the cultural divide between those with money/power and those without grow wider than it did during the Dark Ages, and for much the same reason.

You spend time arguing over what’s happening in a game, and how it shouldn’t happen at all, and all the while it’s happening in the real world all around you. It’s hardly a mystery as to how a culture can forget it’s heritage so quickly. America’s history is being re-written as we speak. It can happen. It has happened. It is happening right now.

Jigain.8231:

Drakkon.4782:

Jigain.8231:

That said, none of this is relevant to the original question of technological complexity, to which I maintain my previously established reasoning and conclusion.

Technological complexity without practical usability and logistical feasibility is of neither use nor value.

So what you’re saying is “this thread has no purpose, therefore I will use it to discuss something entirely different”?

No, what I’m saying is that “your interpretation of value is wrong and I will refute it with intelligence and common sense.” I can see how you might get confused. You’re only technically correct in your assessment of the question being asked, but your interpretation is not the only one that can be made, nor is your stance the only one that should be considered. When considering who is the most technologically advanced, one must consider how to measure technological advancement. You choose to measure it by overall complexity. I choose to measure it by cultural feasibility and practicality. The most advanced technology is that which works, can be mass produced, and provides benefit to the user.

By your own admission, the Asura cannot mass produce anything but Peacekeeper gear, and that is only comparable to the technology manufactured by the Charr. It is, therefore, not superior, and not more advanced. Similarly, there are many areas in which the Charr excel in production and benefit, making them the clear winners for the most advanced category.

But if we need to hold a science fair, I’m sure the Asura will make a good showing.

Jigain.8231:

That said, none of this is relevant to the original question of technological complexity, to which I maintain my previously established reasoning and conclusion.

Technological complexity without practical usability and logistical feasibility is of neither use nor value. Simply saying that you can make the most technologically complex widget in the world is almost as impressive as saying you’re the tallest Asura. It’s meaningless unless said widget does something useful. While the Asuran technology is impressive, and shiny and glowy and glossy, it is also overly difficult to work with, only reparable by a handful of Asura, and not quickly. Its use in a practical manner is limited, at best.

This is not the case with Charr technology. Charr technology is simple to deploy, easy to repair, and reliable.

It’s the difference between a Roman road and a modern highway. Sure the modern highway carries more weight, passes more cars and in a shorter time, but it breaks down every few years, has to be practically rebuilt from scratch, and even then it takes a long time to repair. Roman roads, laid thousands of years ago, are still around, and some are actually still in use. Without repairs. Which was engineered better?

If I need a one-off weapon or item to be used in a single situation, and I know that I have time to get it done, I’ll go with the Asura. If I need thousands of items, produced quickly, distributed to thousands of people, and they all have to work right every time, I’ll take Charr tech every time.

Complexity and Advancement only matter if they can be put to use, and Asuran tech is highly theoretical. Charr tech is practical. Practical trumps Theory every time. My money is on the Charr.

Atlas.9704:

To quote a favorite character from a TV Show: “…I can’t recall the last time I was in a fight like that. No moral ambiguity, no … hopeless battle against ancient and overwhelming forces. They were the bad guys, as you say, we were the good guys. And they made a very satisfying thump when they hit the floor.”

RIP Andreas Katsulas.

Korsbaek.9803:

Drakkon.4782:

+1 to Lostwingman for calling it! A poorly spelled, grammatically lacking, counter-idea supported by a lack of logic.

what lack of logic?
please explain how it is a impossible thing? if its not impossible we have no way to rule it out;)

1) The spelling and grammar are so bad it is impossible to tell what you’re talking about. Learn how to communicate effectively before you type. Please. Life is much easier when you can communicate your ideas properly.
2) I never said it was impossible. I said it was devoid of logic. There’s a big difference. Again, perhaps some vocabulary builders would help. Words have specific meanings. When used properly, they are very good at spreading ideas and concepts. When used poorly, they only cause confusion. You have sown confusion. I am sad.

+1 to Lostwingman for calling it! A poorly spelled, grammatically lacking, counter-idea supported by a lack of logic.

BobbyStein.2315:

We haven’t revealed her motive yet. I can understand the confusion and/or frustration surrounding that so we’re looking at ways to accelerate the plot and implement some features that will make it easier to track Living World content. The first phase of that system will be implemented before the end of the year.

Someone contact the execs at Fox! This needs to get cancelled quick!

Killerbot.8645:

Thinking about it Scarlet is GW2’s Green Jesus.
Hey atleast Metzen isn’t the writer behind Scarlet.
..or is he?

Does bare some similarities, doesn’t_ _it?

Killerbot.8645:

Scarlet Briar is as bad a character as Jaina Proudmoore from WoW.

No, Scarlet is still worse.

Jaina is just a bad person, but her character isn’t broken. She’s simply unlikable. She’s a prodigy, but she isn’t excellent at everything. Everything doesn’t come to her without effort, only magic. In that aspect, she’s actually a well grounded character. Its her personality that is horrible. She has a martyr complex, a pathological need for everyone around her to get along, and she hangs around with the leaders of both factions. That makes her a problem. If they had her and Thrall get married, it would have solved a lot of problems they have with their story right now. Capt Chin wouldn’t have a reason to trust her, Thrall would still be leader of the Horde, and Garrosh would be some General in Pandaria screwing things up like he did in Northrend.

Scarlet, on the other hand, is everything I said in my last post. She’s as Mary Sue as you can get, and worse, Anet is looking for new ways to make her even more horrible. Get the herbicide and be done with her already.

Seraph.6145:

Queen ain’t real, It’s just one of Kalkatorrik’s illusions!
He’s foolin’ with us! I tell ya…
First he hypnotized Logan, then called for “help” when Destiny’s Edge was about to slay him!
So Logan went to Ebonhawke to help “Jennah”…
….while Kalkatorrik broke free when Snaff died and flew away in peace…
D*MN I"M GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!

That would be an interesting twist.

Settle down there, Shyamalan. Time for your meds.

Irikol.3495:

I was curious as to what others might think about this theory? (And partly because this is the only secret that even has a chance of compelling me to care about this story at this point >_<)

I think you have provided absolutely no supporting evidence to back up your claim and without it, you look like a raving lunatic. That’s what I think. As they say, SS or it didn’t happen.

Gandarel.5091:

Or would you give it to the.. rightful owners? With high chances of being a good ally

You were doing so well, and then you said this. If you truly understood anything about politics, governments, puppet governments, powers behind the throne and anything else we have been discussing, you would know that not only does a “rightful owner” not exist EVER, but should someone prove to have the strongest claim, it is complete irreverent to the process because facts can be changed, information altered, opponents assassinated, and all manner of black and unsavory acts committed to make whatever you want to happen happen. Your pro-human agenda aside, there is no true heir to the Orrian Throne, and any who step forward are putting the world’s largest bullseye on their backs. No one in their right mind is going to step up to claim Orr. Ever.

Ludwig.4138:

Besides, from the Scarlet short story, I see a huge difference. The Joker “just wants to watch the world burn” and Harley just wants to please him. Scarlet wants to burn the world and have a hand in recreating it. She is not crazy, she is enlightened. Still that is not a motive, just a frame of mind. Her motive is fueled by pure evil, self importance, and a paranoia that if she does not do this, then she doesn’t matter. To her, it seems like everyone lives and dies and the world is still how it is supposed to be, and she doesn’t like that. Crazy? No, she knows what she’s doing, and she is smart enough to know how we perceive right and wrong, but she just doesn’t care. Evil.

She’s a narcissistic, psychopathic sociopath. She’s self-absorbed, self-important, incapable of empathizing with others, and she hates what everyone else is doing and refuses to try and fit in. Instead, because of her narcissism, she wants to make everyone love her and do things her way. She’s bullied and threatened the Aetherblades into conforming to her will (“Have you met my Aetherbaldes? They work for me because… they like living.”), and when she gets defeated at the Jubilee, she sends mailbombs to the players.

While she is one of the most unbalanced characters to ever have been kittened out of someone’s fevered imagination in forever, she isn’t enlightened. She’s too self-absorbed to ever be enlightened. She cannot even conceive of what true enlightenment is because it isn’t her, and if it isn’t her, she doesn’t care.

And then there’s her “back story”. I put it in quotes because it’s the sort of thing that I was writing when I was 6. She’s applied to and been accepted by all 3 colleges of the Asura. What? No Asura has ever done that, so why would the racially stuck up and self-important Asura allow a walking salad to do it? She’s a blacksmith, but quit because it was too easy. In what universe? Smithing is hard work and leave very little time for anything else. She’s the Six’s answer to everything you’ll ever need. Blindly fall to your knees and worship her.

Excuse me, I’m actually becoming physically ill thinking about how poorly written and implemented she is.

Scarlet isn’t the best villian ever. She’s the worse plot device ever contrived. She’s the laziest type of writing there is. Evil isn’t monolithic, and yet she’s quickly making every evil faction in GW2 fall under her sway. What’s next for her? Dominating the Elder Dragons? The Inquest is secretly working for her all this time and they would have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for you meddling players? Grand conspiracies don’t all tie up neatly under one little bow. They’re big messy self-conflicting affairs. They have lots of heads and lots of agendas, and none of them get along with one another for too long.

This isn’t normal, but on Scarlet Briar it is. Scarlet. Not even once.

Just because we’re getting the content for free doesn’t mean we’re willing to accept content that is total kitten. Scarlet is the most kitten kitten kitten I have seen pushed on a gaming community since … ever. As it’s free, we may not deserve better, but we’re demanding better.

Qawsada.4251:

The new dungeon does not really help my standing on Scarlet at all. She was extremely childish here and she rank up her villain sue buy not only capturing Caithe easily, but insulting her and bragging about this for the next ten minutes.

-headdesk-
-headdesk-
-headdesk-
-headdesk-
-headdesk-
-headdesk-
-headdesk-

Serbaayuu.3051:

Imaginos.3756:

Serbaayuu.3051:

Imaginos.3756:

just like they suck for Tequatl,

Rangers thrive on the turret/turret defense. You shouldn’t be smacking the dragon’s face. Not everybody is going to be a member of the DPS zerg.

Oh? So we’re regulated to turret kitten like necros or ‘finger duty’ because we’re not a real dps class huh? That is bad design.

How? Not everybody can be the Warrior class. Get over it.

We hear you.

Alissah.9281:

“Please stop giving us free fun, we dont like it for some reason”

I will never undertand humans >__>

Good thing you aren’t one, huh?

Narcemus.1348:

I have to point out that, so far they do not like Jennah on the throne because she is easy to manipulate, but because thus far her goals have aligned very strongly with their own. It is much easier for them to keep a person in power whose thought process is very similar to their own than to “train” a new leader in the right way to do things.

I don’t have time to go into the rest if it, which I fully disagree with, but I’ll come back to it at some time (or more likely it’ll be 3 more pages of posts before I get back again).

Of course her goals align with theirs. They’re telling her what her goals are. Anyway, however you choose to see her, the OoW likes her right where she is, and they can keep her there. So long as she is there, they’ll have a pawn they can control, whether or not they actually talk about it overtly.

Tiger.7506:

Fixed that for you. Enjoy

Except, you didn’t. I don’t play only 1 hour a year. I play more than 1 hour a week, or even 1 hour a day. I just want better content. I want the two-week cycle to be recognized for what it is: a failure of policy. They’re feeling contrived, forced, and dull. We want better content, not more content. Not because we don’t play often, but because we want it to be worth playing when we get it.

Absence makes the heart grow founder. Familiarity breeds contempt. The two-week cycle exemplifies how true these are.

I agree. The Charr have the best stories by far, and the Asura have the best flavor in their dialogs by far. They’re my top two favorite races. I made one of every race just try them out, and if I wasn’t so far into my alts as I am, I would delete them and restart them all as Asura and Charr. Humans and Sylvari are just… -sigh- and the Norn really are kinda bleh.

Vol.5241:

“Please we want better content”

Fixed that for you. Enjoy!

draxynnic.3719:

Actually, you’re the one who needs to learn more about the Order.
The Order of Whispers are empire manipulators, not empire builders.

You have to have something there to manipulate first. Manipulators aren’t above putting something in place to work with. That’s building, and you can’t separate builders from manipulators. As I said, the subtext of the conversations you have with the Master of Whispers and other Preceptors indicates to me that they understand the process of putting a puppet government in place and are willing to do so. While the average player will be stuck at the “they’re spies and they gather intelligence” level of understanding about the Order, anyone who reads and analyzes intel reports will be able to tell you that consciously or not, they’re giving away a LOT of their hand by showing just how far they’ll go to control things. The Order of Whispers very much sees itself not just as the power behind the throne in Kryta, but as the ones actually running things. They like Jennah being on the throne because she’s easier to manipulate than a counsel of ministers. Jennah is one person and she is emotional and fairly easily handled. The Ministers are many, and getting a consensus out of them is much more difficult.

The same process applies to Orr. With the Pact in de facto control of Orr, as they are at the end of your personal story, Trahearne is the leader of the fledgeling nation that is being established there. It isn’t a matter of whether or not he wants to be Orr’s ruler, or if the Pact should or could control Orr, because he is and they do. The Order of Whispers is now directly supporting the new ruler of Orr, and until someone better for the job comes along, I don’t see them letting things change. Orr is in good hands for keeping the peace in Tyria, and that is what they want. No one else in the game is in the proper place to take over, either covertly or overtly.

So, you see, Empire Building isn’t necessary, though that is what the entire process is called. The empire is already established. We did that all throughout the Personal Story. We just didn’t see it that way. But step back and look at every other power struggle to topple a corrupt or “evil” government, stripping away the context of “dragons” and “undead” and “risen” and you’re left with a small group fighting against an established leader, attempting to overthrow his regime, affect change on the country and establish a new government. Right now, we’re in the period of semi-anarchy that follows any government failing. The Pact is strong enough, and if it stays together, and there is no indication that it won’t, it will emerge as the one ruler of Orr.

There are no other real contenders. We can talk about the humans and their bloodlines and whether or not, as aliens from another world they even have a right to claim anything on Tyria as their own until we’re blue in the face, but as the old saying goes, “possession is 9/10th of the law” and the Pact possesses Orr.

-snip-

And that makes everything you just said irrelevant.

“Human, have you ever been to Hell? I think not. Did you know that once Hell was nothing more than the absence of God, and if you had ever been in his presence, you would realize that was punishment enough. But then your kind came along and made it so… much… worse.”

“Humans aren’t capable of 1/100th the evil of a ****bag demon like you!”

“Evil is a ABSTRACT! It’s a HUMAN CONSTRUCT! But true to his irresponsible nature, man won’t own up to being it’s engineer so he blames his dark deeds on my ilk. But it isn’t enough to shadow his own existence; he turned Hell into a suffering pit. And why? Because it is beyond your abilities to simply make persona recompense for the sins you commit. No, you choose rather to create a psychodrama and dwell in a foundless belief that God could never forgive your grievous offenses. So you bring your guilt and your inner decay, WITH YOU, to Hell, where the horrid imaginations of so many gluttons for punishment gave birth to the sickness that has infected the Abyss since the first one of your kind arrived there, begging to be punished. And in doing so, they have transformed the cold and solitude to pain and misery. I have spent EONS privy to the flame, inhaling the decay, hearing the wails of the kitten ed. I know what effect such horrors have on the DELICATE PSYCHE OF AN ANGELIC BEING! I’d rather not exist than go back to that.”

- Dogma, deleted scene.

Zacchary.6183:

Elesh.6192:

Discreet invitation to return to the topic at hand, backed up by a tastefully lighthearted joke about the second poster’s inability to create a concise reply.

A sarcastic compliment to your ability to revive dead topics coupled with a relevant picture.

Cautionary comment about the mods and the possible removal of irrelevant comments and/or loss of rights to post. Polite suggestion that we all return the thread back to the original topic. Mild confusion as to what that was. Generic end comment expressing laughter.

Narcemus.1348:

I wouldn’t call them empire builders. They aren’t claiming anything for themselves at the moment, and if they were they are doing a terrible job at it based on the time span they have had to pull all of the nations under their banner. I mean it took as long as it has just to bring humanity and charr nations together. I understand that the Vigil is shown making a majority of the contribution there, but you best believe that the Order of Whispers was behind as many thrones/war strategy rooms as possible trying to push this agenda. The cooperation of these two races is one of the key points in creating an alliance to destroy the Elder Dragons, without it there would be a lot of turmoil in the world, more than just for those two races… I just don’t understand what political power they would gain if they leveraged their abilities in order to make Trahearne claim Orr for himself. He is not one of their pawns just yet.

In my mind, the Order of Whispers is best compared to the Aes Sedai of the Wheel of Time series. They manipulate the actions of all the nations, even those violently opposed to them, in order to create a world situation that is best for fighting the Dark One.

If this thread is any indication, Humans are a stubborn, mindful, willful, obstinate, and arrogant lot. Guiding them towards the destination would be decidedly difficult. The Charr are a willful and prideful lot, too. Taking a long time to get them to the point where they’re willing to sit down and talk? Yeah, that could take a while. And it did.

As for Trahearne, he certainly is one of their pawns. He leads them in the fight against the Dragons. He trusts them to provide intelligence reports on the foes they will face and the things that need to be done. He is easily manipulated and controlled, certainly already under their control. I know I would have him under my thumb by now, were I the OoW. So why wouldn’t they suggest control of Orr, to keep the races from fighting over it. wink wink nudge nudge say no more.

Narcemus.1348:

Drakkon.4782:

The Vigil… conquer? Conquer what? From whom? They already did their part to destroy the Elder Dragons in Orr. Now they’re making the area safe for people to move in and settle, or whatever someone plans to do there.

My point was that the Vigil have shown no interest in leading or controlling others in any aspect other than making peace and fighting the dragons (and making peace was only so that they could focus on the dragons better). I know it is not necessary, but I could easily see the Vigil disbanding after the destruction of all the Elder Dragons just as easily as the Pact. Their roots do not go back nearly as far as the other groups, nor does their purpose hold to much more than just fighting dragons.

And I said they would be happier and more likely to play police/national guard.

Also, to the guy who said none of the orders are empire builders: You really need to learn more about the Order of Whispers. They are most definitely empire builders and powers behind thrones. The subtext of their conversations and the subtle meanings of the things said imply that they are definitely in it for governing the world, in the front or by convincing others to be the face for the endeavor. I suspect they would convince Trahearne to claim Orr for the good of all.

Gandarel.5091:

I want magic to somehow return to the story. And the amount of technology just alienates the norns from the events.

“I want the game to be I want it and I don’t care about whether or not others like it how it is.”

Got it.

Narcemus.1348:

As for the Orders, I don’t think anyone has denied that the Priory would spend years studying the country. But I can’t believe that the Vigil will want to conquer new lands for themselves. They are the “national guard” of Tyria. We train to save the refugees and protect those in need. They aren’t conquerors. Might they build a fortress in order to provide some protection to the new settlers, perhaps, but I very highly doubt that they would try to govern or control.

So the Priory have a legitimate use claim for the lands. Good.

The Vigil… conquer? Conquer what? From whom? They already did their part to destroy the Elder Dragons in Orr. Now they’re making the area safe for people to move in and settle, or whatever someone plans to do there.

The Pact is just being responsible to the people who hare invariably going to come. No more, no less. And that is the basis of a government. It is certainly more egalitarian and benevolent than some of the existing governments in the game, and in real life.

Make them collectibles so we can stick them in the bank without using actually valuable slots. That way you can use them or not as you prefer. I have all the backpack skins from each of the events I’ve done since returning to GW2, and I haven’t actually used any of them. They’re all ugly. Holo wings, bone wings, rotting wings, and now a new hobopack for every class. Bleh.

Gandarel.5091:

Can you actually show me the slightest sign of the pact acting like this? Ever?

Just because ANet is lazy and ended the story with the end of fight celebration doesn’t mean that there’s no reason to extrapolate behavior based on previous exemplars. The Vigil is a military organization and would jump at the chance to claim Dragon lands for a new base. The Priory will want to stay to study the numerous archaeological sites. The Order of Whispers will stay just to keep an eye on everyone.

Of all the orders, the OoW will be the one to prevent the races from going to war over Orr, but they also won’t stop the Pact from accomplishing the greater good by forcing them to give up Orr to any one race. The Pact having somewhere significant to act from is a greater benefit to Tyria than humans getting some ancient mythological homeland back (which it isn’t even their homeland, it’s just the landing site for their Ancient Astronaut buddies who brought them to Tyria). It trumps the Charr’s interests in expanding their empire. It overrides all interests except those who align with their goals. That’s why people join orders to begin with, and that’s why the orders all joined forces to begin with. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

Lokki.1092:

I don’t think Scarlet is a Villain sue because all the sylvari have entirely ridiculous ability. They all are as far as I’m concerned.

I knew there was a reason I didn’t like them. They’re just poorly written to begin with. That and I’m not very into the whole “fey” culture. Sure, I like “Lost Girl”, but that has more to do with how delicious Kenzi is than all the Faeries and their Courts. Sylvari with their Dreaming remind me way too much of Changeling and how it destroyed WoD. I feel the Sylvari do the same thing to GW2, and Scarlet is just a condensed, coalesced, concentrated exemplar of everything that is wrong with them. She’s the worst problems of the Sylvari as a race, wrapped up into one little ball we can hate on.

So I will. Kitten gotta go.

Gandarel.5091:

lordkrall.7241:

So steampunk is not fantasy?

Megalasers aren’t steampunk. Terminators aren’t steampunk. Golems aren’t steampunk.

Yes, they are, yes, they are and yes, they are.

Steampunk is a style of presenting modern of high technology in an anachronistic manner. Typically it follows either an Edwardian or Victorian level of technology, incorporating clockworks, brass fittings, shiny buttons, glowing lights, and arcs of electricity and/or other types of energy.

So, using that as a base-line for “what is steampunk?”, Megalasers are Steampunk, Terminators (especially the clockworks we were fighting) are Steampunk, and Golems (particularly the way the Asuran Golems all glow and have bright shiny fittings) are most definitely Steampunk.

I feel it important at this point in the discussion to bring up Clarke’s Third Law: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”, and it corollary: “Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.”

The only reason we look at Megalasers (Laser Cannons), Terminators (Combat Robots) and Golems (Power Armor) as heratical pieces of “ubertech that has no place in fantasy” is because we’ve been introduced to them in a technological manner, and we keep going back to thinking of them in those terms. Instead, what we really have are Amplified Light Cannons, Clockwork Automatons and Magically Amplified Body Armor. ANet went for the easiest to understand terms they could when creating the Megalasers and that was the problem that sets this whole argument up. That they keep going back to the well indicates that they haven’t gotten it into their heads that while Steampunk is very fantasy and is alright and all, we want to see more sword and sorcery stuff, too.

Also, to clarify, Kryta has Catapults in every zones where we have Centaur (all of them, so…) which makes it 100% tech. Also, modern plumbing (more advanced than Roman aquaducts), fortified walls, modern building techniques. All very technological as opposed to magical.

Magumaa is 100% tech, as well, because of the Asura. Magitech, but tech nonetheless. The Sylvari use the most advanced technology of all: bio-organics. They grow their technology as plant life. They’re even more advanced than the Asura, even if they want to act like they don’t understand “technology”. They don’t understand inorganic technology is all. Bio-organics has a very sword and sorcery feel. It’s all very DnD druid.

Ascalon is 100% tech because of the Charr, thought he Charr are the only race that can be said to be 100% normal tech. Diesel engines, flamethrowers, rifles, pistols, etc. Modern-ish tech.

Of all the zones, Shiverpeaks is the only one where the technology level is very minimal. The Norn live in a world of magic and fantastic beasts, where dragons ravage their towns and threaten their very way of life, and horribly altered beasts, warped by dark magic and foul spells are an actual threat. This is the most “fantasy” zone of all. If you’re looking for traditional fantasy, this is your stop.

Every other zone is a mix of traditional high fantasy, medieval fantasy, steampunk and hypertech. Even Orr.

Wanderer.3248:

Maybe we could build our player houses there. With cow and chicken.

It would make a good place for them to put the Guild Halls that are missing from GW2.

inazuma.7021:

If it means more Tara Strong voice work, I welcome Scarlet’s return!

Dammit, I didn’t want to remember that this kitten Mary Sue is also Twilight Sparkle.

Gandarel.5091:

Or charrs should grow balls and fight like men.

No, men should grow some thicker skin and fight like Charr.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well then, atleast we might be able to kill her now? Would that make you happy?

Ec-KITTENING-static!

EDIT: But only if she says dead and never shows her face in the game again.

Right. As I said, I don’t disagree with your points. I had not been playing GW1 for long enough that I guess I forgot about Preparations. I do kinda miss those. But they were never a major part of my ranger playstyle. I’ve always been more focused on my pets. Assassin/Ranger was the kind of melee/pet I was only just experimenting with when I stopped playing. Sadly, I never got my Hall of Monuments, and so I’m missing out on 6 achievement points for GW2 that would get me the full suit of retro “Heritage” gear. I only have three points without it. Anyway, like I said, I do agree with your problems and issues as you see them.

MastaNeenja.1537:

The only interaction I would like to see between these two involves the Mad King, his favorite choice of salad dressing, and Sporkcalibur.

I fully endorse and support this option. Make it happen, ANet. Scarlet needs to go.

Boo, boo, it’s Mary Sue.
Let her rot. What can we do?

Burn the fields and salt the Earth.
Let all know what she is worth.

Until she lies in a shallow grave
no path to mirth will she pave.

Need to find a way to make one that looks like a Pyro. I want the right combination of armor pieces to make it look right.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How could they have been White Mantle? The White Mantle aren’t exactly pro-charr….

Or do you mean “instead of random pirates, they could have made Scarlet’s underlings being a group we already knew from GW1” – in which case, I say “no thank you, don’t make her ruin more of lore.”

Scarlet ruins everything she touches and she has touched the entire game. The only choice is to salt the ground and start over with GW3.

Arkham Creed.7358:

As far as the profession is concerned….

:, not ;. Just saying here. Your otherwise articulate points are being distracted from by your poor punctuation. Forums notoriously suffer from this. I agree with many of your points, but I have questions that will follow:

1; Heavy armor classes feel to sluggish for my tastes.

Despite they move no faster or slower than any other armor type? That’s been a problem for me in most games. If you’re in heavy armor, you have a movement speed penalty. Your survivability is mitigated by the fact that you’re going to be late to the party. This needs to be addressed in future MMOs.

2; I don’t like playing mages because I feel they are too flashy.

Mages are all about flash, it seems, with particle effects and stretched graphics to imply powerful spells. But aren’t the most powerful spells the ones you never see and didn’t even know were being cast? Meh. Theatrics.

3; The ranger upsets me on a very deep, personal, GW1 fanboy level due to my history as a ranger in the original game, and how my old play-style is no longer possible.

If I might ask, what was your play style, because mine didn’t actually change all that much, except for having … nope, the same number of ranger skills open. Hmm…

4; I can’t stand “MMO stealth” and prefer to play a ranged class, something very difficult with a class who’s primary form of “energy management” is a forced melee mechanic, so the thief is out.

Never liked rogues. Thief is kind of interesting with the different weapon builds, but I’ve only recently learned melee combat, preferring ranged, as well. I do have a thief, just because I tried it out at it was actually amusing and fun.

5; the engineer started out fun, and I thoroughly enjoyed it for a number of months. However recent problems and realizations have caused me to become increasingly frustrated with the profession.

And this is the problem with the end game. It took me until level 50 to realize that the Engineer class was broken because mobs started downing me more frequently in the same types of fights while wearing appropriately leveled gear. Guardian took until level 64. Elementalist only lasted until 40. I’m doing Mesmer now, and I’m starting to find problems at level 32. This is sad. I’m not sure where my Thief, Necro and Ranger are going to stop being fun to play.

6; currently neither the ritualist nor the dervish are playable professions.

Yeah, I got nothin’ here. Well, the Dervish is kind of built into the Guardian, so that’s fun. I do like my Guardian, even if he’s starting to have problems with his survivability.

Anymras.5729:

I think we’re at an impasse – neither of us is going to convince the other of one version or the other being better.

Therefore, to prevent this turning into both of us saying the same things at each other for the next three pages like a Monty Python skit, I’ll suggest that we simply leave it off here, and let our arguments for the different versions stand for potential further review by the people who may or may not actually have to decide at some point.

I just posted a novel there, so if it isn’t clear after all that, I don’t think any amount of discussion will do it. I’m not interested in convincing anyone. I’m using this thread as a place to discuss different ways to solve the problems with turrets, and I like the start of the OP’s ideas. I think I’ve kinda refined them a little, but I know that ANet won’t act on them, so preaching to the choir isn’t going to fix the problem. Until ANet allocates from brainpower to the problem of the Engineer class, we’re just going to be talking to one another about what we’d like to see, and fangasming about it when we manage to hit on an idea that we all like.

It’s a toggle in the options menu. I believe it’s on the graphics tab.

Narcemus.1348:

Drakkon.4782:

Gandarel.5091:

Orr did not forfeit the war and achieved ultimate victory over the charr army – even tho they sacrificed too much.

Orr destroyed itself. That’s the biggest admission of defeat you can have. Intentional or not, the actions of one man without approval of his king or not, it doesn’t matter. The Charr survived, the Orrians didn’t, and Orr sank into the sea. Victor, by Survival: THE CHARR! You can’t claim victory if you’re dead. Even Adlebrain knows that and he still kitten ed his whole kingdom to ghostly unlife to spite the Charr. Same result: Victory for the Charr. A troublesome victory with a host of problems to be dealt with constantly, but victory nonetheless.

I have to disagree with this based entirely on the fact that there are still Orrians in Orr as we speak! HA THEY SURVIVED! (and in case you don’t get it, this was a joke)

Seriously speaking though, with the use of the now known forgotten spell the Pact could go about trying to cleanse the minions and for all we know there could be a continent full of Orrians once more. Why you ask? Simple, the same reason the forgotten freed Glint. To learn more about the Elder Dragons. I understand this is a crazy thought, but in the end it IS a possibility.

I’m not opposed to this, actually. If they can be cleansed and returned to human status, then that would be a good thing. Being originally from Orr, casualties of the Elder Dragons, they would be allowed first claim to any reclaimed fertile land for steading, but even then, the likelihood of there being enough nobles and/or royalty cleansed to make a functional government is minimal.

Gandarel.5091:

Orr did not forfeit the war and achieved ultimate victory over the charr army – even tho they sacrificed too much.

Orr destroyed itself. That’s the biggest admission of defeat you can have. Intentional or not, the actions of one man without approval of his king or not, it doesn’t matter. The Charr survived, the Orrians didn’t, and Orr sank into the sea. Victor, by Survival: THE CHARR! You can’t claim victory if you’re dead. Even Adlebrain knows that and he still kitten ed his whole kingdom to ghostly unlife to spite the Charr. Same result: Victory for the Charr. A troublesome victory with a host of problems to be dealt with constantly, but victory nonetheless.

Wouldn’t call this a bright victory, but still doesn’t give any claim to charrs. And we know there are living Orrians who are hiding their heritage.

No, it doesn’t give claim to the humans. Orr can claim NO victory. They failed, were destroyed, and the refuges are silent about their heritage. No one is left to step up among the humans, as the time to do so is now. Unless someone does, the land has only the Pact to adminstrate it. It is a de facto government, and as the only government in place, that makes Trahearne the ruler of Orr.

No charrs survived the assault and they never attempted to take the land again. Kryta repelled the charrs too and lost their royal house for some years, still doesn’t give any claims to the charr.

Funny, I have three Charr who apparently are among those who’s families survived the assault. If you mean of those present on Orr? Sure, but as there was no continent left to go back to, there’s hardly a flaw in the Charr not sending more troops to claim a patch of ocean. Orr didn’t win. No matter how much you want them to be seen as valiantly opposing the Charr, they didn’t win. There’s no Pyrrhic victory here. No “we won, but at what cost?” They lost. They lost everything. The only thing that the Charr lost was the opportunity to claim their spoils.

And if you want to obstinately keep pressing this ridiculous Charr v Orr position, it’s an opportunity that they just got back, thanks to the Pact. The Norn won’t take it, the Humans don’t have the troops, the Asura aren’t looking for that kind of domination, and the Sylvari don’t think that way (well, the Nightmare Court might, but we can’t play them, so that’s moot). That leave the Charr. Should even one Warband make the trek, via waygates or otherwise, to Orr to plant the flag of the High Legions, as it were, then the Charr claim will be made.

But that’s unlikely to happen. The Pact control Orr, and they will continue to control it into the foreseeable future. Humanity just doesn’t have a good enough claim and no way to actually press it. No moreso than the Charr in any case.