Guild Wars 2

Mist.6217:

@Drakkon- You are assuming that the Pact would put a price tag on Orr. The benefits gained from forming the Pact and in turn developing all those new techs is that those techs can be moved out of a wartime position and into a civilian position offering more versatility and more over time value.

If Kryta thinks that they are going to just move in and take over without remuneration, kitten skippy I’m putting a price tag on it. NO group in the world, this one or Tyria, is going to lay out manpower, materials, and lives for free. Never going to happen. Trahearne may be a tree-hugging leaf, but he’s got people under him with expenses, a need to be paid. Reality is that he’s going to have to either foot the bill or get a government to do so. It’s all well and good to save the world from an Undead plague, but when the dust settles, everyone is going to want to be paid back for their contribution. Practicality says that he either takes over administration of Orr, or he “sells” it to Kryta or whatever government is willing to foot the bill themselves.

smekras.8203:

haven’t the devs said that Zhaitan is really dead?

Yes, and it says so on the tokens you get from the exploration mode Arah dungeon.

Roe.3679:

- What gear should I shoot for if I want a rifle build? Would Knight’s work? It seems many Engis don’t run that. I’m not positive on what the best gear would be.

I’ve heard Zerker is how to go. Knight might be OK, though, looking at the stats. My stuff is mostly zerker and I manage with it. Still building my end game gear up so…

- Is the trait that blinds on rifle crits a good trait? Or is it sullied by regular use of kits? It seems very strong.

I play a flamegineer, so I can’t advise you on that. I use dual pistols and flamethrower, and I get might off Juggs. I focus on the burning condition, and things I set on fire don’t tend to survive long. It has hitting issues when you move around a lot, but if you can play gun emplacement for a while as your allies keep the heat (no pun intended) off you, the Flamethrower can make you feel like a god.

- How, exactly, does the Healing Turret blast finisher work? I can’t seem to get it to work like I see in videos I watch. Also, is it possible to proc 2 blast finishers off of that water field?

This isn’t why I use the Healing Turret, so I wouldn’t know. Sorry. I use it as it was intended, as a healing font to keep you up all fight. My turrets autoheal and have increased health/armor. I wouldn’t have bothered improving them if I just wanted them to blow up. I only detonate them when I’ve moved off and notice I didn’t pick them up and they haven’t been destroyed, yet.

- What kind of traits or build would be absolutely necessary for survival?

Toughness and Vitality. But if you skimp on the Power, Precision and +CD, you’re not going to survive long enough. Engineers are a balancing act. Enough damage to kill things and enough armor or health to last through the fight. Find the balance that works for your aggression level.

- Any tips on survival in general? I genuinely enjoy watching engineer videos when they last a long time in a fight, but I can never seem to understand how, exactly it is happening.

Some people like to think we’re DD DPS, but we’re actually better at condition support. The Flamethrower and Mines work best when applied over an area, and they affect a lot of targets, so if people are tightly grouped, it’s all good. One on one is good, too, as you can hold your own that way, but if you’re fighting close range on your own vs a group, you’ll get wiped most of the time.

- How do you handle conditions?

I burn through them. Anything I can find that shortens their time on me, but honestly, the healing turret keeps me up in most situations except LS zerg fights. Then I don’t bother. I just burn kitten down.

Eddie Royale.9605:

Oh, and I did understand what you meant, you like that the female Charr armors aren’t feminine and instead of a design overhaul, you’re rather they add more armor so the people who want their cat ladies running around in chainmail bikinis with skirts can, while you keep your option of having normal gender neutral armor.

You might want to visit Animal Lover’s Boutique (<- “You Don’t Know Jack” reference) if you’re looking for a bikini for a cat. Personally, that’s something I hope I NEVER see in GW2. I don’t need chainmail bikini’s to make the Charr complete.

Honestly, there are several female Charr that demonstrates being strong female presences in-game, and to add chainmail bikinis for them would be doing the Charr a disservice. One is a female in the crafting area bar in Black Citadel who tells a drunk male to back off and she isn’t interested, eventually having to threaten him with her sword. The other is one of the Ashford Fields SPs, where you fight her and she tells you “There, you learned something. Now go away.” I don’t feel she would be improved by adding chainmail bikinis.

Overall, I don’t see them as a wonderful expansion of the game world. I see them as cheapening and pandering to prepubescent children and adults clinging to being prepubescent children (perverts). The devs have taken the step of creating a unique and interesting gender-equal race. That’s more than enough. Hell, in this atmosphere of objectification of women that pervades the industry as a whole, the fact that a company created females in a game that don’t look like sex objects is not only laudable, but cause of celebration.

Sounds like no one QA’d the novel.

Crossaber.8934:

I really want to play a Charr, but i’ve failed multiple times already, every Charr character i made can’t get pass lv4….
My issue is not with the armor clipping issue yet… its the running animation, i hate being the only Charr that run around with 4 legs “slowly” when every npc is running in 2 legs….

Run with a weapon drawn, or using a kit as an Engineer. They run upright all the time that way.

Also i hate the body type, why don’t we got a more humanoid body shape like GW1 Charr?

Why should they? They aren’t humans in furry suits. They’re Charr, a unique blend of animal traits in a vaguely humanoid body. Posture is the least concern of all concerns about them.

So i guess the armor issue will eventually bugged me out later as well….

Hasn’t bugged me much so far. I’m too busy burning things to the ground with my Flamegineer.

Bellyboomer.3048:

You are an inhabitant of Tyria. ragardless of your race or origin and only from lore-perspective, What would be your religious belief and why?

I’m of two minds, but only because two of the races appeal to me over the others. First, the Charr and their atheistic views appeal to me because I am a deist (man as god) like America’s Founding Fathers. Gods used as a form of control and coercion is bad, inhibit us from attaining our full potential, and stagnate society. The Flame Legion did this to the Charr as a whole. Churches do this to people as a whole in real life. European history is rife with the Church abusing it’s position, killing people in the name of faith, and ruining lives of those who don’t believe as they do, question their rules, or interpret their holy texts in different ways. The same can be seen in the Middle East with Muslim extremists today. And those are just the big ones from a Western point of view. True faith in an Almighty comes from within, and the belief that we will one day understand the world around us well enough that we can stride the stars like gods. I believe the Charr feel the same way, that there is nothing that they can’t accomplish if they put their minds to it. Magic and gods are a crutch that the Charr just don’t need.

Second, I find a certain appeal in the Eternal Alchemy. With understanding and acceptance of chaos theory, one can hope to embody the world in an single understandable equation. I find that the egos of the Asura align rather well with the arrogance of the Charr. Together they would be a potent force against which no group could hope to stand. Yes, the magitech that the Asura create does fly in the face of my last sentence in the previous paragraph, but, being human, I am able to hold and believe in two contradictory thoughts simultaneously and know each to be absolutely true.

Obviously I lean more towards Charr.

Dustfinger.9510:

In which case, Spain still wouldn’t get the gold. And neither would random Mexicans and Puerto Ricans. No matter how you slice it, it belongs to those who took the risks to get it back. Not to those who can make some long-past, distant ancestral ties to it.

Be fair, Dust. If Spain could show that they had a legitimate claim to the gold, their claim might be honored. However, they would still have to reimburse the salvage crew for the time, effort, money and manpower spent retrieving the gold. So the real question here is what is Orr worth to Kryta. How much is Jennah willing to pay to get back Orr? Obviously, no random refuge is going to be able to repay the Pact for it’s efforts, the technologies developed to defeat Zhaitan, the expense of building their bases, the lost lives, or the time spent doing all of it. Only a nation could do so.

If Kryta (or the players saying they’re the only ones who should ever be considered for controlling it) is so hellbent on owning Orr, how much is it worth to them? What’s the going price for a new nation? Is Jennah willing to bankrupt Divinity’s Reach to reclaim their “homeland”?

Is she really going to bankrupt Kryta to go to war over it either? She has nobles who aren’t paying her taxes right now. That’s a cash shortage, especially considering this HUGE festival she just threw, converting the tragically destroyed quarter of her city into a giant theme park for the best and the brightest to play warrior hero in. Not only should this probably cause her to lose popularity with the outlying commoners (who were, after all, hit by the invasions harder than the cities, not to mention the resulting flood of adventurers rampaging through their towns and holdings killing everything and leaving the dead bodies to rot in the sun. One can only imagine the smell and the disease that would result from the carnage.), but she’s also going to have to start levying more taxes to pay for the reclamation of, or the war to retake, Orr.

If we’re going to speak of war over Orr, we had best start discussing the logistics of paying for such an endeavor. There’s no abundant mineral wealth in Orr, no established mining operations, no fertile ground waiting to be turned into farmland, and nothing but scholarly sites and ample places for military bases and fortifications to defend the existing lands of Tyria. That’s three things that would appeal to each of the three orders, but not to any nation in the world because of the cost of doing it.

Ironically, the three orders are already there, as the Pact, pretty much taking control of Orr as we speak, apparently. I’m not seeing Kryta as having the resources to make it happen. Jennah has other problems to deal with, as she seems to be attracting psychopathic plant-life, raiders, and rebels, and disloyal nobility.

Shpongle.6025:

Drakkon.4782:

I’ve never understood why I needed to leave the game to find a group.

press alt+tab and play in windowed mode, you don’t have to leave the game, you just switch windows

How is that not leaving the game? I’m still not playing it when I look for a group. I’m not even in the game when I’m looking for a group that way.

draxynnic.3719:

That may be the situation now. It may not be when the moment arrives that resettling Orr is feasible for anyone, regardless of military capacity. Besides, a human nation of Orr that remains friendly to nonhumans could still have nonhuman assistance when required. My human characters have helped out from Metrica to the Iron Marches, but doesn’t lay a claim to those because they’ve fought there. You help your allies in achieving what’s important to them because they’ll help you in achieving what’s important to you, not because you’re planning to slice out chunks of what’s important to them on the slim justification that you fought there.

It’s feasible for the Pact. After all, they have boots on the ground there. They have de facto military command of the area. They control access to Orr. They control the land route, they control the only port (at this time), and they have air superiority over the other nations. And while I see them more as facilitators to the location, they have control.

That sort of behaviour is how alliances fall apart. Believe me, even if it’s not at the top of their list of priorities right now, if the Pact announce they’re going to reinstate Orr as a human nation, that’d be a massive boost to public support for Jennah to get behind the Pact. If instead they parcel out the human holy land to anyone or everyone… that’s going to lead to resentment.

The Pact isn’t going to announce that they’re reinstating Orr as a human nation. That wouldn’t make any sense. Trahearne didn’t purify and reclaim Orr so that it could be destroyed again by war among the races. With the three Orders under his belt it would be more logical and stable to set up administration of the land for anyone who wanted to setup a steading, and regulate archaeological excavations of temples and sites for the benefit of all. If any one race is allowed control, it will lead to conflict, not just resentment.

And the Order of Whispers – which, let me remind you, is an organisation originally formed to serve human interests and which is still lead by a human, and deep down may well still put human interests first even if it’s realised that those interests are best served by cooperation with other races – will know that.

Perhaps, but the Pact is run by a Sylvari and the Commander is a Charr (at least in my experience), so the Order of Whispers isn’t calling those shots. The Durmand Priory is run by an Asura, and the Vigil seems to be run by a Charr. We all have our little crosses to bear, and no one race has a distinct claim to anything outside of what they control now. I don’t see a single-race option as viable. As you said, this is how alliances fall apart.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I never liked removing non-bugged-to-hell content. I still don’t. I never will. There’s no point to it.

As I said, it’s only one way to do it, and in a living world, old content is… well, old. It would be like allowing everyone born today to fight in the (U.S.) Civil War (War of Northern Aggression, if you’re from ‘the South’…), or World War I or II.

If you must have a case of “out with the old, in with the new” then have that old in a corner, just so it can still be played.

That is an option, too. Part of CG could be determining what PS the player wants to pursue. Perhaps it could be an option to start at the very beginning and play through all of it until you get to the new stuff, but there should be more PS than just ‘up to Orr’.

Also: issue with the “new PS replacing old PS” – what about the racial biography questions?

You’ll note all of my examples start AFTER the racial part of the PS. The choosing of the Orders is the farthest back into the PS I go. I don’t think that they should remo0ve the racial part of the PS, ever. That part is special and gives a new player a sense of flavor to his race.

There is a lot of things overlooked in the personal story steps. Some of the most lore comes from them. Replayability is something heavily needed, and locking the content forever… I just can’t agree with it. Especially since the personal story is an isolated instance.

I’m thinking of both old and new players with my suggestion, and it is only a suggestion. I’m not even asserting that it is the RIGHT suggestion, only A suggestion as to a way the process can be handled. I don’t like losing content, either, but, as I said above, it is getting to the point where old players have no more character progression to go through, save these ridiculous LS modules, and new players are doing content that only a few dozen people on each server are even caring about anymore, making it, in some servers, impossible to do.

I know well that Orr is nearly empty and getting completion on all of the SPs, Hearts and POIs is nearly impossible to solo at the gear level that drops. My Engineer stopped 2 zones out because there are still points he can’t finish, no one is doing Orr on my server, and the temples are making getting the zones complete nearly impossible. I believe I’m at 86% total, and I can’t get higher in the current zone because it can’t be soloed. I don’t call for nerfs often, but since no one is doing Orr anymore, they should cut down on the mob density. It’s fine if there are a lot of players running through the zone, but when it’s only a handful, all doing their own thing, it’s deadly and very discouraging. Maybe they could turn a few (hundred) spawn locations into optional locations that come online as the population levels increase. And the frequency of events should be decreased.

What I would rather have… (snipped for length, sorry)

Not an unreasonable suggestion, either. I just think that the PS should never end. Even at the top end, there should be some manner of PS for players to continue. It’s unreasonable to end the PS and then pick up the progression with these LS modules, which are usually horrible storytelling, buggy, and lack cohesion like Flora’s cake from Disney’s Sleeping Beauty.

With new Living Story updates, those instances and story would become available to all temporarily – afterwards, it only becomes available as a continuation of the Personal Story. Aetherblade Retreat and Molten Facility return in their old forms rebalanced for playability with any amount of players (like any other PS instance).

Why? Why not have an NPC at them that allow you to run them in their altered states so you can re-enjoy the fun?

It would allow new players a chance to eventually catch up on the story that’s been getting utterly removed, without having to make some sad excuse of re-explaining why Scarlet hates us (and why we should view her as a “personal nemesis”) every month she shows up.

Scarlet is a personal nemesis? I really don’t see it. She’s a lunatic Mary Sue. She’s a “Look, I can do everything every other race can do, and I’m gifted among my own people. I’m special in ways no one else can ever be because I was poorly written and poorly designed. And I control an army that no one knew existed, so where di they come from? Who cares! I’m special” character.

The sooner I can ignore her and get on with my life of killing Elder Dragons, the happier I’ll be. We killed one (yes, he’s dead. Finally and fully, unless this next LS SCREWS THAT UP, TOO) and there are four (five) to go. Let’s get on with the business of killing dragons. Not, as my name implies, that I have anything against dragons, but Forces of Nature exist to be railed against, so let’s get railing.

Narcemus.1348:

Plus Drakkon, don’t pretend you are calling for the multi-nation route. 90% of your arguments have been for full charr control of the territory (when they already have more land mass than any other existing race.)

A) I was discussing the Charr-only option, not calling for it. Charr-only is ridiculous, but the arguments could be made, so I did. For an expansionistic military race, you can never have too much land. Why does it surprise people that someone can argue a point that isn’t theirs?

B) ANet has already stated, several times to my knowledge, that if they develop Orr in the game, it will be the Pact that is most likely to control Orr under a multi-racial coalition, and it will be for the benefit of all.

C) Humans still don’t have the ability of manpower to control Orr, regardless of their cultural heritage or royal ties. Simply put, they can’t do it because they lack the logistical capacity. Multi-racial is the only way to logically go.

Debate may not be a skill taught in schools anymore, but if you’re going to hold a discussion on a forum, you should at least know how to do it. One person takes one position, and another takes the opposite. They exchange arguments and rebuttals until all possible avenues of discussion have been exhausted, and then they stop. It is for the audience to determine who had the stronger argument, not the debaters. Passion is no excuse for poor arguments. Just because you don’t like what the other side has to say isn’t a reason to descend into name-calling; that’s just conceding that you have lost the debate.

And know when to quit. Some people will argue illogical points until they’re blue in the face, failing to realize that they aren’t making any sense. In those cases, it’s best to walk away for a while and let things calm down. This has happened several times in this thread. That’s why I stop replying for a few days at a time. People are just so wrapped up in their arguments that they can’t see how patently ridiculous they are, particularly when they have already been refuted by the devs. Others have decided it is good and proper to just attack any of my arguments specifically, despite not having fully formed arguments with which to attack.

I don’t single out people to attack. I pick arguments that are either so wrong that I can’t believe they were even uttered, or people who have replied directly to me, called me out, or are discussing the issue I was discussing specifically. With only a few exceptions, I don’t get personal, although there was an argument I presented that someone took particular offense to. I can only surmise he had previous personal experience with the issue, and the general comment was taken wrong.

Still, I stepped back and let things cool down. It isn’t like I have any personal investment in there discussions. All told, the devs will determine the direction of new lore development, and our input on it will be minimal, if any.

So please stop calling me out specifically, like you have a vendetta against my even participating. I don’t mind if you want to call attention to the fact that you’re rebutting my arguments, but don’t try to make it personal. You can bait me (I"m only human, after all) but if you try I will think less of you for it.

Good debaters, like Dustfinger (with whom I love to have discussions) use sound logic, citations from many sources, and good debate skills to hold truly enjoyable discussions. We don’t always agree, but I have respect for their ability to hold a decent conversation.

Others of you, not so much. No names. You know who you are.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, they can…

if they just admit that it takes place after the personal story.

And your proclamation for something they “cannot” do is already false – many players may not have reached the creation of the Pact, let alone got introduced to the airships. But yet the Aetherblades stole airships from the Pact (that’s where they got their airships from).

Step One: Create a new starting point in the Personal Story.

This step is easy. ANet should be doing this already. We call these expansions. The current story lines should all be wrapped up into nice little packages with tie-ins to the next story, and the Personal Story should restart, so that people who have played through the first Personal Story, gotten all the achieves and done all there is to do can move forward with new material to enjoy that isn’t just a single-serving rinse/repeat ad nauseum.

Step Two: Wrap up previous Personal Stories.

As stated, once the new Personal Story is ready to be rolled out, the old one, and all the Living Story bits associated with it, are wrapped up, tied up with a nice neat bow, and the hooks and tie-ins for existing characters laid out to move them to new areas. New characters will be allowed to start in new places, giving players the choice of experiencing the new Personal Story from either the old world perspective, or from the new world perspective.

Step Three: Lock off the old Personal Stories.

Once the new PS are rolled out, the old ones are locked off, deprecated, and the achievements associated with them moved to the History header in the achievements tab. Everyone will have ample warning that they are being locked down, so this part won’t come as a surprise to existing players. New players should already be started on the new Personal Story. Once the old PS are locked down, the next PS quest should be one that moves old players who haven’t finished the old PS into the new one seamlessly. It should reveal the deatails of how a brave adventurer, not unlike themselves, lead Destiny’s Edge to victory over Zhatain, and how the Pact is involved in the new story. It should also place them into the new storyline at a place commensurate with their relative place in the old story, so that they can experience roughly the same level of interaction with world events that they had been a part of previously.

It should start them at the beginning of that, so if they had done the personal quests, but were choosing their order, they should have the undead focused order quests wrapped up and be moved back to the start of the new order quests so they can get to know the new threat properly.

If players had finished the old PS fully, they should be given options of either doing the new PS from the beginning, giving them 80 levels of questing to go back through, if they want to do it all again (and I would, so yeah, it should be an option), or of just starting with the orders phase of the PS, using their old title within the order in place of the novice, etc, titles. Unless the Pact is going to be called upon again to face the new threat, in which case, they can also start from that part, since they’re already the Commander.

Anyway, that’s a simple draft of how the process of stopping the old stories and starting new ones could be implemented.

Dustfinger.9510:

^

The Holiest place is still accessable to humanity without everyone handing them a whole new kingdom. Humanity has lost nothing in this scenario where everyone shares.

OMG! Stop talking sense! This isn’t the forum for it! Run, you fool, before they hear you!

AlphaDelilas.2873:

8/10- they sound so cool and definitely sound like normal Asura names

Mine are not very Asura sounding, but I wanted to name mine after scientists xD I have Tessa Nika, a guardian named after Nikola Tesla, and Adalace Lovenir, a mesmer named after Ada Lovelace who was the first woman in robotics.

Very nice. I’d give both a 7/10 because of the clever way you changed them to seem more Asuran. I would not that Adalace’s last name is more Norn sounding to me than Asuran. Tessa could also go Human and be as appropriate. Good job.

The guy below your post didn’t rate you, so I am. My Asura doesn’t have an Asuran name, so I’m not playing.

I’ve never understood why I needed to leave the game to find a group.

deSade.9437:

Ok, they got it, thanks. Now take a deep breath and relax.

I was wondering what you were talking about for a minute, and then I scrolled back up and realized that the site double posted my post when I reloaded the page after a 502 error. I deleted the second one. Ain’t technology grand?

Lostwingman.5034:

Because Legions placing their own military encampments and bases there for no other reason than to be there would look very suspect. The Legions practice realpolitik and they wouldn’t do something like that just to “join the ‘communety’”.

They would if there was a tactical advantage to it (Blood), they could gain access to some ancient tech (Iron) or they felt there were secrets that could benefit/harm the Charr as a whole (Ash).

Oh, look. Motivations. Problem solved.

Tay-Quat-ul. It’s simple.

Dingle.2743:

Conditions will be viable for the chunks where players have to defend against waves of mobs, especially as they’ll have to spread out.

There will always be mobs attacking the cannons, so condition users should focus on those to get the most out of their stats.

This is the answer to the problem, and the entire reason the OP will NEVER do it. He wants to go toe to toe with the boss like a zerker build DPSer, but he wants to do it as a CD build support. Basically, he’s trying to take a tossing flashbangs and wondering why the heavy machine gun is killing more people. He’s playing his character wrong.

There. I said it. We’re all thinking it. I’m going to call it out.

YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!

CD is support, not DPS. Go help defend the cannons and batteries against the adds. You’re useless on the boss because all the zerkers with incidental conditions in their attacks are already using up all 25 stacks of whatever you inflict on the boss. Go do something useful to the raid. Or go play a zerker alt.

Pick one and quit whining about not being able to DPS as a support. Seriously, if you can’t add anything to the fight against the boss, go find a target you can add to. You’re still going to get rewarded for the encounter. Be useful to the event, or go away.

We are…

Youth of the Nation.

azureai.9764:

Why would the charr even want to expand into Orr right now? The charr got most of what they wanted out of their war with the humans, and now have internal empire-issues to manage. Unless there are resources in Orr that the charr need/want, I don’t see why they would care all that much about settling over there.

It’s part of the hypothetical question posed by the OP of that thread. I’m a proponent of the Charr position, wherein the Charr want Orr because … well, land. They attempted to acquire it before, and the Vizier sank it to deny it to them. Apparently there is some question about how competent the Vizier was as a wizard if he miscalculated the strength of his spell or not. He’s either a diabolical madman who sank the entire continent out of spite for the Charr, or an incompetent moron who sank the island on accident. Either way, Orr isn’t a bad place now that it’s regrowing.

The racist (and most of them hate being called that because of modern connotations about the word, but I’m a linguistic purist, and the word is simply an adjective to describe someone or something that takes a position based solely on race, so it’s accurate) factions among the Lore forum have strongly aligned themselves against the Charr, arguing they have no claim to the land, no capacity to take it, and no capability to get there. They point to the war on Ebonhawke as an example of the Legions NOT being able to fight effectively. For a bunch of pro-humanists, they sure don’t think much of the Ebonhawke as fighters. And they refuse to acknowledge the reason the Charr didn’t steamroll Ebonhawke into the ground is because they lacked the political will to do so. The other Legions left Iron Legion to their plaything, looking for glory and reward elsewhere as a “not my problem” sort of thing. They didn’t think the effort was justified by the reward. Hardly an admission, as most arguing on the Lore Forum say, that they COULDN’T do it. Just that they didn’t want to do it. It’s a simple cost-benefit analysis. The cost of taking Ebonhawke wasn’t justified by the reward for doing so.

Anyway, that’s the reason I came to the Charr board to see what those of similar mind regarding the Charr thought of the discussion. I see that my assumptions about the biases seem to be bearing out.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Much as I don’t like the idea of you deciding it’s "junk’ because you don’t like it, I think the rest is probably the best reaction possible for people who don’t like it. Do something else until it goes away.
Or at least until Tequatl Rising.

As I said, I am ignoring it until it goes away. And my opinion of it is my own. I don’t claim to speak for anyone else. if anyone else is enjoying it, great. But I have tried to enjoy it several times and it won’t let me. If just keeps doing everything I hate. It’s like it find it funny to kitten me off. So I’m shunning it until it gets the hint and wanders off to mope.

Narcemus.1348:

Really? Because in my experience in GW1 and GW2 they made multiple attempts at genocide. Not even just killing the humans that took over their homelands but also killing the humans in their own homelands to make sure the threat never returned. Perhaps you should read up more on your own lore. The Charr would have squashed Ebonhawke like a bug and exterminated all the humans if they had a chance, but they couldn’t. They never had interest in ruling over humans.

GW1, expected. The Flame Legion aren’t nice people. They did horrible things to their own people. Humans are vermin to be exterminated. One can hardly expect someone to be civil to the kittenroaches.

GW2, I doubt any of the three Legions have been horrible to races we care about. Centaurs are fine to kill off. We’re not supposed to like them.

However, to say that they couldn’t kill off the humans of Ebonhawke flies in the face of the established lore, the in-game experiences, and even the books. You cannot say that they couldn’t do something when they never tried. 2 Legions walked away from the fight, and the third stayed to conduct weapons testing on them. Hardly conclusive proof that they couldn’t win. You’re reaching for conclusions that aren’t in arm’s reach.

BTW: The asura gate isn’t the only way that Ebonhawke has survived. According to Destiny’s Edge the current asura gate wasn’t built until the events at the end of the book, which is 5 years before the game starts. There was a previous gate that went disused, and somehow they were able to get caravans of supplies through the mountains an into the city without too much charr interruptions.

I wasn’t the one who brought up the gate. My argument holds with or without it.

Frosch.7809:

Drakkon.4782:

…the Charr lacked the political will to destroy them utterly, despite having more than enough forces deployed in the area to crush the petty kingdom to rubble.

That’s your point: the Charr could have taken Ebonhawke if they only wanted to.
Reality is, they didn’t because they couldn’t. End of discussion.

Not even by your own evidence. The other Legions walked away from the fight, believing the battle wasn’t going to be worth the reward. They didn’t walk away from Ebonhawke because they didn’t think they could win. They walked away because they didn’t think winning would justify the costs. They lacked the political will to fight that battle,and went elsewhere to better rewards. But for Iron, the rewards were, until recently, worth it because they got better and better siege engines out of the fight. The Elder Dragons have just become more important.

And anyone who uses “/thread” or “End of Discussion” to try and bully their way out of an argument is saying they know they’ve lost. And thank you for your concession.

moronwmachinegun.3815:

The giant tent over the Great Collapse is a great idea, but a real jamboree like that wouldn’t have been so secretive – there should have been NPCs – citizens, children, guards, etc – excited, happy, and concerned about the large event before it happened.

That’s called a “preamble” in narrative terms, and it is quite useful in moving a story along. ANet has been effective at keeping a story going into the next segment for stragglers who were just one achievement behind, but they also should be foreshadowing the next part of the living story, both to give the living story a narrative link through events, but also to reveal details that will become important in the next section and tie up loose ends in the previous one. Any loose ends not tied up could and should be considered a foreshadow in and of itself that it will come back later to be revisited. Annual events don’t need to be tied up in any way other than seeing NPCs cleaning up from the event, whereas build up beforehand would be nice to give a sense of impending excitement.

And don’t be that store that starts playing Xmas music in September (I’M LOOKING AT YOU LOWES!). That’s a bit too far in advance. Just a little foreshadowing and preamble would be nice.

Frosch.7809:

Second, there is the skill of the Vanguard to prevent the Charr siege engines from reaching the walls:
“The trick is getting those machines into the right places. The Vanguard has gotten extremely good at keeping the Charr from reaching those places.” GoA, page 181
It made the Charr believe that Ebonhawke wasn’t worth the effort, and they withdraw, except Iron Legion, who went on testing weapons against Ebonhawke:
“Many Charr believe that Ebonhawke is impregnable, and taking it a waste of effort better spend elsewhere. The strongest dissenters are among the Iron Legion.” GoA, page 180-181
Assuming the Charr could have taken Ebonhawke if they only wanted to is wishful thinking. The closest they got was shortly before the rise of Kralkatorrik. I am too lazy to look for the appropriate quote from Edge of Destiny.
Bottom line is, the Charr tried for 250 years and didn’t take it because they couldn’t, not because they wouldn’t.

Amazing that you draw that conclusion because the quotes you provided support my position just as easily.

The Iron Legion believes the walls of not impregnable, and remain behind to test new siege technology to try and bring them down. The other Legions believe that the city isn’t worth the effort, so they won’t commit to killing it off. Where am I wrong in saying that they lack the political will to commit genocide and that they, if they focused their efforts on the task, COULDN’T defeat the Ebonhawke easily? They just don’t think it’s worth the effort. The Magical McGuffin in the city sneaking them in food behind the backs of the Charr is the only thing that has stood between the Charr and total victory. Starving out a city is an effective way to deter the populous. Honestly, everything you quoted supports my position just as easily as yours. I don’t see your point.

SAB is just bad. It was bad a joke content for April Fools. It wasn’t fun, it didn’t make me laugh, and it angered and frustrated me, which isn’t something I want from my video games. It prompted me to quit playing for about 4 months, during which I apparently missed a lot of interesting Living Story things. That angers me more.

But if this is now going to be permanent/reoccurring, I’m going to be able to do what I’m doing right now: ignore it like the corky kid in the back of the class whose eating paste instead of listening to the lesson. I’ll make fun of it, deride it, and make it feel bad about itself until it goes away, and every time it comes back, I’ll treat it like the unwanted crap it is. It isn’t about immersion or lore for me, it’s about SAB just being BAD content. It’s a horrible idea, poorly executed, that ruins fun, and destroys and sense of enjoyment I can get out of the game. By ignoring this cycle completely, maybe I can get a few more of my alts up in level. The scrolls were a nice start, but 20 is only part of the way there, and the rest of the way is going to take so kitten long…

The letter bomb was a nice touch, though.

Mirta.5029:

joshua valentine.2593:

I believe the ramp-up in difficulty has something to do with the Infinite Continue Coin in the gem shop.

-adjusts tin foil hat-

actually I believe that too. Not entering Sab again :/

I swore off this crap the first time around and I’m just as disgusted with it this time, too. SAB can go get a hotdog for all I care. Worst. Update. Ever.

Grimmur.1469:

Greyfur.1082:

Just saw that on dulfy:
It is a bummer Klitty, and will only get worse like Hyena so well put it “the same thing that’s making people not want to play the race is the same thing that’s making the improvement a low priority.”
I can understand not wanting to spend the resources but man that sucks, guess we need to get louder before the gap gets worse.
This was the Q&A:
Q: Are you making to fix the Charr armor and make them look sexy?
Daniel: Providing better armor for all races is important to us. Charr is the least played race so we will need to distribute our manpower accordingly. Players who play humans and norn are more numerous and louder crowd. We feel for the Charrs, and given the time and resources we will make sure to do your justice.

How much louder can the charr community get about this issue? I cant remember the last time I check one of the other race forums and found anyone complaining about similar problems except the asura, so I’am not sure what they meant or maybe is their way of saying “most of the money likes to play this particular race more, so we make sure the money is happy”

Its the same circular argument used by management everywhere to get rid of things they don’t want to deal with.. A therefore B therefore C. Not as many people play Charr, therefore they aren’t a high priority, therefore fewer people will want to play them in the future. Given enough time the population of Charr players will get disgusted with the inaction of the devs and quit playing them altogether, or at least fall below a particular threshold, and the devs will writ them out of the game entirely.

Maybe, maybe not, but this has happened over and over in other places, not specifically games, but it does happen. If they wanted to see the number of players playing Charr improve, they would prioritize the armor fixes higher. But they just don’t care. Charr were put into the game as fan service for the people in GW1 who thought they were cool there, and wanted to play them. But they didn’t spend much time on them, which is why the armor sucks, the feet look weird, and they just don’t care about fixing any of it.

Surbrus.6942:

If some issues get resolved, like the Ascalonion ghost issue, Kralkatorrik, and a Khan Ur unites the legions, then nothing can hope to stand against the military might of the Charr. That said, those are some pretty major issues… but if they are resolved, any other minor issues like Ebonhawk or Ogres would be nothing more than a memory.

Ebonhawke is a memory. That’s the point of the Peace Treaty. It’s between the Charr Legions and Ebonhawke. Now both sides can destroy the Separatists who are making life bothersome for each.

The Brand will be taken care of in some part of the future Living Story or an expansion, perhaps. We can certainly hope so. It is an Elder Dragon, after all, and that needs fixing. Right now, it only requires a garrisoning force to contain the problem, since, until the source of the infection is dealt with, the problem will persist.

The ghosts will never be handled until someone comes up with a way to destroy the curse that Adlebrain cast on his people, kitten ing them to unlife. The rest are minor annoyances and worthy only of cursory security forces, which are the PCs.

All in all, I see the Charr as being in the superior position, were a single race to claim Orr, of doing it. I decided to bring the discussion over here because my interest in it is largely Charr-specific, and the thread on the Lore board is continually degenerating into preschool name calling.

Narcemus.1348:

And the Charr Legions couldn’t take out a simple human fortification in the south of their kingdom :P
What we see in the story is in the beginning the centaurs having the upper hand and eventually the seraph pushing the centaurs back to the very edge. And by your own logic I will have to say that all 3 charr legions couldn’t take care of their own problem (Flame Legion) without help from the Pact. So charr can be just as big of wimps when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Ok, so we’re going ot point to Ebonhawke as an example of Charr inefficiency? Ok, we’ll bite into your lacklorester bait. The Charr didn’t destroy Ebonhawke with their overwhelming might because they didn’t see the value in genocide. They wanted the land and the people, not just the land. Ebonhawke’s resolve refused to bow to Charr domination, and the Charr lacked the political will to destroy them utterly, despite having more than enough forces deployed in the area to crush the petty kingdom to rubble. That’s why Jennah stepped in an negotiated the cease fire, and then the peace treaty. Both sides acknowledge that neither would have benefited greatly from a prolonged conflict, and even in winning, they would have had less of a victory than they do with the peace treaty, where they can move past the fighting that has marked their entire existence and begin fighting their common enemies together.

Try playing the game and experiencing the content before you open up fail arguments like this. This was explained in the game while you’re doing the hearts in Ebonhawke itself. There is no reason why you don’t know this unless you haven’t been there. Every NPC with a “[F] Talk” option tells you how much they hate the war and how tired they are of the fighting (except the quest NPCs, but they’re not supposed to). They express hope that the two sides can work together as hard as they fought one another. But one thing that the Charr always say is that they know they have the military might to destroy Ebonhawke. There’s just something about how passionately the humans fight that the Charr respect and they don’t want to crush that spirit because it could be useful in their own fights. It’s just those kitten humans resist being brought under the banners of the Legions. Sad.

Winds.3087:

I don’t see any “fun” in bending words and twisting lore for the sake of said fan’s interests.

That’s because you’re a lore purist. Those are the boring people at parties who kill conversations by being experts on whatever topic people are talking about.

News Flash: Lore changes. You aren’t the final arbiter of fact. So if we want to discuss hypotheticals, we can. However, many of them have already been discussed, so we don’t have to rehash them. Lighten up. There are only two lore-bunnies I care about here on this forum, and that Dustfinger, whom I do not always agree with but I do respect… ish, and Konig, who is really just god of all lore for most purposes.

If you’re not having fun with the discussion, stop reading it. Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this. Well, don’t do that. Duh.

So over in the Lore forum someone was saying how the humans had an army that rivaled that of the Charr, and that the Charr couldn’t get organized enough to invade Orr if they wanted to.

Lore Forum

Seems we’re just not up to the task because our Legions fight amongst themselves too much. Weaksauce or too true?

[ANetMakeThisHappen]

Drakkon.4782:

Zaxares.5419:

Drakkon.4782:

Indeed. Perhaps some sort of quickening draught to increase alacrity. I really doubt that they are competent enough to actually PILOT a golem, even if we were so inclined to make one large enough for them to get in. What a large and unwieldy thing that would be. I think it would be so slow as to actually induce drag on their already lackluster sloth.

Nonsense! There is no problem that cannot be solved by throwing an even BIGGER Golem at it. One day I’ll get funding for my VOLT-R0N project to unite all golems across Tyria into one super-golem. It’ll be unstoppable! Unstoppable, I tell you!

Yes, and you’ll start a festival at Rata Sum to celebrate our ingenuity; at which point a quaggan called Eavil McVillen will pop up and turn them into his servants in a dastardly mission to turn all Asura into plushie backpacks, because he feels like it.

[/ANetMakeThisHappen]

Winds.3087:

I like it how [racename]-fans completely disregard anything that could potentially make their point moot.

That’s what makes discussions on Lore so much fun. Everyone is so certain that their pet race is superior in all ways ever to every other race. At least I picked a military race that has proven dominance. Hell, as stated in the game and the lore at this point, the only reason they took so long fighting Ebonhawke and went with a peace treaty instead of wiping them out is that there was neither justification for, nor the political will to commit, genocide against them. Even Charr can get bored fighting the same foes.

draxynnic.3719:

Drakkon.4782:

Because the Humans don’t have the army to… yadda yadda yadda.

Humans have the second strongest army of the races, after the charr, and they have their own problems. In fact, it strikes me as likely that, for all their problems, the human armed forces are probably stronger than any single charr legion – a large part of their problems can really be put at the feet of the traitors on the inside that are sabotaging the defensive effort.

Which is why they don’t that the army to… yadda yadda yadda. We discussed all this to death in the last few pages. Humans just can’t because of internal issues, logistics, and other problems that aren’t a problem for the Charr, and the Charr are militarized, and can mobilize more easily than any other race.

However, the solution which seems best to all, though is outside the discussion parameters, is to have Orr end up multi-racial/multinational, which is what the Devs have hinted is going to actually be the case.

And the Human military, the Seraphs, can barely handle the Centaurs without aid. The Charr Legions are more than a match for them, individually, or together. There may be rivalries between the Legions, but when they decide to do something, they do it. Read the thread and see what we’ve already discussed and discounted before you bring up old arguments that go nowhere.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Grimno.6172:

Weir.5691:

All will serve the asura, in due time. When that time comes, we’ll see who laughs last.

How’s the war to retake your underground home going?

We do not fight wars, we let the lower races fight it for us. And they are slow as molasses

Indeed. Perhaps some sort of quickening draught to increase alacrity. I really doubt that they are competent enough to actually PILOT a golem, even if we were so inclined to make one large enough for them to get in. What a large and unwieldy thing that would be. I think it would be so slow as to actually induce drag on their already lackluster sloth.

Annoying as that is for an Achiever, I console myself by accepting that at least I got the meta achievement finished. Broken achievements automatically fall off my achievement radar when I realize they aren’t working and I can’t get them finished. I’m sad that I’m such a glass cannon that I can’t get the dungeon achievements down. I’m still missing the perfect finish one because I die at least once in every run. Got the one for jumping in the hay, though.

Thefire.1583:

I do believe that the original discussion is now far from what it was originally at. While I understand that most of the other races do not care for who we are. I do know some from said races that appreciate us. Also for those who think genocide is the solution i hope you come to your senses and cease all active thoughts upon said goals.

If you haven’t thought of murder, you haven’t thought of everything. As my mentor used to say: “Time for a little premeditated self-defense.”

Doomfrost.5728:

I’d like to join and participate in that experiment. Be cool if 20-30 people were playing all charr and used warband support at 30 people you’d get 60 charr allies. xD

Join a zerg for the invasions. That’s what it would look like.

Selana Firestone.6389:

Sir Drakkon-

Concerning my wine, no one has done so. However, when I do partake of a drink, I pour the glass myself- unless Faren’s been into my brandy again, in which case I usually wake him up with a small tidal wave and shove him outdoors to sober up. Why he insists upon lurking about my domicile is beyond me. Perhaps I shall purchase a GOLEM to escort him back to his own home….

Excellent! I can recommend several excellent models. I would recommend my own VAL-A, but the Inquest have recently been tampering with the designs, and so I can’t be certain that anyone making one is not generating a homicidal machine. I’ve dealt with the problem, but propagating the design changes, or reversions, in this case, is problematic as the Arcane Council is somehow involved and said changes are becoming an issue. No matter. I’ll have it sorted soon. If you’re not in a hurry, I can produce one myself for you. I’ll even document the unit so you can show it off to your friends as a Snaff Savant original.

Gandarel.5091:

Derigar.7810:

In my opinion, it’ll become the very first interracial grand city. The Sylvari wouldn’t heal the land if they wouldn’t be sure it would be a land of peace and prosperity. And as all of you have been explaining, a single race cannot inhibit this land – too much drama.

That’s why multiple races will have to join hand, and live side by side.

What’s too much drama about being an ancestral human land? If other races won’t start kittening (and why would they), then there are no problems.

Because the Humans don’t have the army to… yadda yadda yadda. OMG, just read the whole thread before you open you gob and start all this kitten again. Honestly, we’ve literally undergone every permutation of this argument, consequences, and possible obstinate gerrymandering we can about the whole topic. Lore backing both sides of the arguments, fanfic arguments, pro-race racist arguments. We’ve had them all. Some of them were infracted, so they might not be there, but if they aren’t, consider that a warning that your argument is against the rules of the game, and will likely result in you getting infracted, too.

>.>

<.<

Yeah. So… just don’t go there.

It would be great if the “Warband Support” was the actual members of your warband from the Personal Story. Further in, more Charr to help you. That would be awesome! But it isn’t. It’s generic members of the Legion you’re in. So sad.

Ugly open toed shoes. Ugh. Thank you, no.

Bleh. Human Warriors. BORING!

I’m enjoying it. I just hope to get 10 more achievements before it leaves. Since I hit 5 today (and half of Fire and Frost), that may not be such a hard thing. I don’t expect to get all the core ones done, but I suspect the dailies will make up for that.

holds up a plush Charr toy

Show us on this doll where Scarlet touched you.

Narcemus.1348:

Bah I give up. I can’t keep up with this freakin thread. It’d take me days to get caught up to whatever the heck you guys are talking about now…

Long story short: We’re agreeing that there isn’t enough information to know if the Charr actually won against Orr, so we’re calling it until the devs give us more clues. Without that, there’s little else to discuss. Sorry, we kind of handled the entire conversation. Some people will undoubtedly want to voice their coppers, but we’re basically done here.