Guild Wars 2

Sadrien.3470:

By your logic I can conclude that finding that way into the enemies home base / in order to troll them by having a dance party in their spawn is not banable ?

Correct, that’s not a bannable exploit. You get absolutely zero benefit out of it other than pure amusement.

Sadrien.3470:

But when they stand in open field place where they are invulnerable is this banable? If so there could be entire blobs of people getting banned

This is…questionable. The only reason it’s not bannable is that those invuln spots only exist directly adjacent to a spawn area, and don’t allow the invulnerable people to actually reach anything important.

serenke.4806:

Fay.2357:

serenke.4806:

Condi PU is amazing. Just last week i had a blast tanking 2 of these with my bunker guard (i have two guards and one is still AH) without much trouble. Kudos to whoever plays this build because if i would see it being that useless, i would change.

True, you can hold your own against thieves and that’s about it.

If a PU mesmer tries to kill a bunker guard, that’s how you know they’re bad. That’s something you should never be doing, there’s better ways to use your time.

And if two at the same time try it, repeatedly? They got the idea of going PU from somewhere.

If two were to try it at the same time, repeatedly, then obviously they were both awful. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at?

serenke.4806:

Condi PU is amazing. Just last week i had a blast tanking 2 of these with my bunker guard (i have two guards and one is still AH) without much trouble. Kudos to whoever plays this build because if i would see it being that useless, i would change.

True, you can hold your own against thieves and that’s about it.

If a PU mesmer tries to kill a bunker guard, that’s how you know they’re bad. That’s something you should never be doing, there’s better ways to use your time.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

No class has 20% buffs with no strings, people are just annoyed mesmer has very few stacking damage buffs in the traditional sense.

Uh. Lets go back to my warrior example for a moment, shall we?

The warrior has to press f1 every 10 seconds for a 20% permanent boost. In addition to receiving a 20% damage boost, that press of f1 will generally do a ton of damage.

If that’s not a 20% buff with no strings attached, I’m not sure what it is. That’s also only one of multiple damage modifiers that warriors get. The maybe 20% from mesmer spamming mantras is the only consequential one we get for PvE.

What trait are you referring to on warrior?

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-berserkers-power.jpg

StickerHappy.8052:

Zenith.7301:

apharma.3741:

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

Yeah, my problem with that condi removal trait it’s a stealth bug. It’s supposed to remove a condi for every 3 seconds in stealth, but right now it also removes a condition upon stealth application. And now they’re gonna be able to pick up the rest of SA, which is immensely powerful.

Thieves get pretty much everything at a cheaper opportunity cost. Lower cooldowns, more condensed effects and traits.

Their traitlines are rather cleaned up, their minors are all particularly strong, and their initiative mechanic is a boon without real drawbacks.

You cannot say the same of many classes. Including the mesmer.

That is the not the problem tho. the -50% damage trait is. Oh guess what? It is a Minor.

Well, that trait isn’t ingame yet thankfully. The condie removal one is.

StickerHappy.8052:

This is what I was saying, how can he not see it???

Yep, I just like laying things out nice and clear. I’m actually looking forward to seeing the backpedaling that’s about to occur.

Daniel Handler.4816:

No class has 20% buffs with no strings, people are just annoyed mesmer has very few stacking damage buffs in the traditional sense.

Uh. Lets go back to my warrior example for a moment, shall we?

The warrior has to press f1 every 10 seconds for a 20% permanent boost. In addition to receiving a 20% damage boost, that press of f1 will generally do a ton of damage.

If that’s not a 20% buff with no strings attached, I’m not sure what it is. That’s also only one of multiple damage modifiers that warriors get. The maybe 20% from mesmer spamming mantras is the only consequential one we get for PvE.

cyyrix.6105:

Don’t even know where to start. Never said it was weak to anything else, never said condi doesn’t help you survive. Nope, not contradicting myself. I feel dumber for even acknowledging your post.

disgunbegud

Right, lets see here…

cyyrix.6105:

Don’t even know where to start.

That’s ok, I’ve got a few ideas.

cyyrix.6105:

Never said it was weak to anything else

INSTANT FACT CHECK

cyyrix.6105:

Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff.

Oopsie.

cyyrix.6105:

never said condi doesn’t help you survive.

INSTANT FACT CHECK

cyyrix.6105:

Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match

Oopsie.

cyyrix.6105:

Nope, not contradicting myself.

I’ll let everyone else figure this one out for themselves.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I think Pyro’s math is wrong. The trait is worded so that it is a ferocity increase equal to 4% damage. Meaning that because you are using phantasms you would double the perceived damage increase.

The only math I did was with respect to upkeep of the buff itself, not what the buff actually does.

That being said, I’m curious as to why you’re saying that phantasms would double the perceive damage increase. Just using a bit of gut logic here:

Phantasms are part of our total dps.

If phantasms are not affected by the buff, the actual dps increase will be lower than stated.

If phantasms are affected by the buff, the actual dps increase will be as stated.

I could be wrong here, as I haven’t thought too thoroughly through it, but I’m not seeing how you get a double damage increase from this.

I became confused through my own design. I kept thinking of the number in the old trait as percentage of full dps.

In reality you should divide the perceived damage increase of the old trait by two. So this is in fact a double damage increase but only over the old trait not in reality.

Ah ok, that makes more sense.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyro is merrily twisting Juricas words around and pulling out semantics (Yes, I’m sassing you Pyro) as he argues that power shatter isn’t superior to other builds in this specific situation.

This isn’t really true, at least in this situation. My main point is as follows:

The OP is asking specifically for ways to deal with a thief without relying on a team for peeling. Literally every bit of advice Jurica has offered comes with the subtext of ‘so that you live long enough for your team to peel the thief’. This is absurd and unhelpful with respect to what the OP has asked. I’m pointing this out, and originally offered alternative solutions.

cyyrix.6105:

It’s not really logical. Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff. Suggesting a different build is like telling someone to patch kitten in their house by tearing off a piece of the roof. It doesn’t solve anything, just displaces the problem.

The better advice in this thread comes from the posts about kiting, watching the minimap to be aware of the thief, and trying to predict/prevent steal.

Again, I feel like half the people in this thread are just completely ignoring what the OP has said. The OP asked for a simple thing: ‘How to deal with thieves without relying on a team to peel.’ That thing was provided, and then subsequently 80 people jumped on going ‘no, no, no, that’s not right. You should do this instead, and here’s how to survive long enough for your team to peel’. The absurdity of this advice is off the charts.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I think Pyro’s math is wrong. The trait is worded so that it is a ferocity increase equal to 4% damage. Meaning that because you are using phantasms you would double the perceived damage increase.

The only math I did was with respect to upkeep of the buff itself, not what the buff actually does.

That being said, I’m curious as to why you’re saying that phantasms would double the perceive damage increase. Just using a bit of gut logic here:

Phantasms are part of our total dps.

If phantasms are not affected by the buff, the actual dps increase will be lower than stated.

If phantasms are affected by the buff, the actual dps increase will be as stated.

I could be wrong here, as I haven’t thought too thoroughly through it, but I’m not seeing how you get a double damage increase from this.

Jurica.1742:

You dont 1000000% rely on your group @ Pyro. While yes, it is a big + if they can help, as I said, most thieves one will encounter can be dealt with.

No, what you actually said was that you have issues against even decent thieves, and good thieves (and I quote) “You can’t do much about”.

Which is it? Can you deal with most thieves or do you actually have issues with even decent thieves? Pick one.

Jurica.1742:

Also people arent stupid in pugs most of the time. They will peel for you. Its a team game.

Let’s be very clear right now. I’m going to quote from the OP:

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, how do mesmers survive in pug matches when there is an opposing good thief? Of course no pug team will peel for the mesmer.

The OP is asking very explicitly how to deal with thieves in a situation where your team is not peeling for you. Stubbornly repeating ‘just let your team peel’ is merely obstinate, not helpful.

Jurica.1742:

If you’re put with people that dont peel, means their mmr is meh. If their MMR is meh, most likely enemy team will have meh MMR meaning also the thief.

This really isn’t correct. Not peeling isn’t a hallmark of low mmr, it’s a hallmark of an unorganized team…aka a pug. Peeling requires them to be aware of the focus, locate the thief, and peel. This is difficult todo effectively without VoIP, and effective peeling is one of the main distinguishing factors between an organized and unorganized team.

Jurica.1742:

Thief counters mes no matter which build you’re on.

While your previous comments at least contained some nugget of validity, this one is simply off the rails. Nothing about this statement even flirts with reality. There are multiple Mesmer builds, either highly defensive (PU variants) or condie based, or both, that are very hard counters to thief, particularly meta thief builds. Attempting to claim otherwise is nothing but foolish.

Jurica.1742:

You can also always simply disengage if you find the thief too much. If you disengage and he follows you, you didn’t disengage.

This is…cute. Mesmer has one singular way to guarantee a disengage from a determined thief, and that’s portal. All other modes of disengage are directly countered by the mobility in raw speed and access to teleports that thief enjoys over Mesmer. If the thief wants to stick to you, there is absolutely no way to truly disengage without using a portal.

Jurica.1742:

I’m starting to feel like a parrot now.
OP didnt mention anything about wanting a new build. He just said he wanted to survive longer.

What the OP asked for was methods of dealing with thieves without a team peeling for him. For some reason that remains mysterious to me, you’ve decided that ‘methods of dealing with thieves without a team peeling for him’ should mean ‘ways to let your team peel the thief for you’. I’m a bit fuzzy on that logic, so if you could clear it up for me I’d be grateful.

Jurica.1742:

And a lot of what applies in coordinated teams, often applies in pugs as well. Proper positioning, kiting, disengaging is something you’ll need in coordinated teams and pugs which is what we’ve told him to practice.

This is absolutely true, but those methods and tips when applied to a power shatter build culminate in ‘how to survive long enough for your team to peel the thief’.

The OP wants ways to deal with thieves without relying on a peel. This is not effectively possible against a thief (assuming equal skill level) if you’re using a power shatter build. Therefor, the logical step is to recommend other builds that can accomplish the goal stated by the OP.

@Jurica:

The problem is that all of the advice, yours included, ultimately boils down to ‘survive long enough that your team can peel’. This works in an organized group, but if you’re playing in a pug, that peel never comes. This means that surviving long enough for the peel is no longer a viable strategy.

The op has said that they play in pug groups. Therefor, advice given to the op should be applicable to their situation. Telling them stuff that only works for a completely different situation is simply unhelpful.

Sadrien.3470:

apharma.3741:

Sadrien.3470:

serenke.4806:

WvW has never been fun, or worth doing. But if you like roaming, it never went “out of favor”. Sure there are massive fights, but you can always roam…

In higher tier servers roaming has “fallen out of favor” because massive blobs of 80 stampeding around the map block out all the solo players and having few opponents makes this very boring for many people. It does not help that most opponents are incompetent and will run to the protection of 5-60 people or call for assistance at a glimpse of you in the distance, but there are lots of fun things to do in WvW, your statement was purely opinion with absolutely no factual base.

@OP For enjoyment in wvw you can, troll zergs and video it, stealth icebow massive blobs, make instant kill montages, make outnumbered commentaries, duel, roam with friends, troll more enemies, find glitches around wvw, cheat your way into objectives, experiment with builds, and make incompetent players QQ.

You may want to change that last part, I’m gonna take it when you say “cheat” your way into objectives you mean sneak in with an enemy, hide and flip the objective. No-one condones cheating in any way

;P ofc we don’t we only use features anet adds to our game. That can’t be cheating wether or not it’s intended. I don’t actually know wether or not using some of the mechanics anet puts into the game is considered cheating I haven’t asked them. Like is using mesmer gs auto from 1420 distance cheating because it wasn’t intended to work that way, or reviving someone through walls, leveling up mid combat using a time ( before it was nerfed), etc… It would make logical sense that we never know what anet intendeds so unless they specifically tell us it’s cheating or it involves hacks it’s not really cheating.

This logic is wrong and can absolutely get you banned for exploiting.

An exploit is defined as an exploitable bug in the game. You’re not using any hacks, you’re not cheating the game client itself, but you’re still committing a bannable offense. Here’s a couple of examples:

Numerous instances of mass bans due to monetary gain from an exploit. When Anet introduced a recipe or miscoded some price so that it gave more than it was supposed to or it cost less than it was supposed to, people exploited that. Those people also got banned.

You used to be able to wall jump into every keep in WvW. You didn’t need a third party program or hacks, you just walked up to a wall and basically mashed space bar. I don’t know if anyone got banned for this (since wvw…), but it’s absolutely a bannable offense of an exploit.

In general, when you’re about to do something, there’s some questions you should ask yourself.

1. Is this a seemingly normal behavior for the game?
2. Am I benefitting in an abnormally large way from this action?
3. Does what I’m doing feel generally wrong, as if I’m breaking the rules of the game in some way?

If you answer yes to any of those questions, then there’s a good chance that you’re using a bannable exploit. Let’s apply that to your examples.

GS auto reaching slightly farther than it should. This is a minor thing that is not out of line with how other similar attacks perform. You’re not benefitting in an abnormally large fashion, and it doesn’t seem generally broken or wrong.

Using a tome to level up and full heal+ knockback. This is abnormal behavior for the game. However, you’re not benefitting in a large way from it (winning a 1v1 maybe?), and it doesn’t feel like a massively wrong or broken thing, just amusingly broken. In this case, I’d refrain from doing it, but I wouldn’t worry so much about getting banned for it.

Reviving someone through a wall or gate. This is an abnormal behavior for the game. Additionally, you’re getting a potentially massive gain from it: portaling into a keep or tower. Lastly, it feels wrong, as if you’re breaking the game. Somebody inside a tower that got killed being revived by someone outside? Nothing is right about that. In this instance, I’d call it an absolutely bannable exploit, to be for at your own risk.

Half the people in this thread:
Here are some other builds and playstyles that allow you to handle thieves much more effectively.

The other half:

No need to change your playstyle, here is a list of 5 different things that you’ll need to do to avoid thieves.

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut good thieves will still kill you and make your life miserable though, forgot to mention that at the start.

Windwalker.7421:

You will also notice that good Thieves will quickly stop making you the #1 priority target, because they realize that a not-so-squishy Mesmer is actually very slippery and pretty hard to kill without getting yourself ganked by his team in the process. (That and they hate Torment or being locked down in group fights. ;-) )

This is very true. When a thief comes after you and gets a face full of torment the first go around, they’re usually a bit more cautious the next time.

Jurica.1742:

You should then also note that you’re safe for like 35 seconds from getting stolen from.

You must mean 20 seconds, since thieves generally have that traited.

Realistically, avoiding a thief as a power shatter mesmer is a full time job. Yes, it’s doable…but it’s absolutely not fun to spend your entire match dodging the thief hunting for you. There are things you can do to make it easier, but even a decent thief is going to make life miserable for you.

Try something that’s not power shatter.

PU condie, maim shatter, lockdown, and phantasm builds all are able to handle thieves far more effectively than power shatter.

apharma.3741:

What I did was I put +10 agony infusions in my back and 2 rings along with a +5 in each which nets you 45 AR. With the rest of the trinkets that brings you to 60 which is enough to do all fractals except 50 which you need 70 AR for.

Add in a weapon and you get 70. Ascended weapons are absolutely worth making, unlike the armor.

apharma.3741:

Glamours have a bad trait atm, go for it.

Glamours are a little tricky actually. Their long cooldowns and relatively short durations mean that they’ll necessarily be a temporary stim instead of a more permanent boost. This means that it should be a bit stronger.

I’ll aim for a 30% damage increase when all is said and done.

Another good way to make it stronger and fit with the glamour theme is to make the stim affect party members as well. This has the added benefit of giving mesmers something to do in parties that isn’t portal.

Lastly, I want to give the stim a bit of complexity; making it so that both the Mesmer and the party have to be aware of it to get the maximum benefit out of it, without making it prohibitively difficult to use.

Result
Trait: Dense Light
Glamours apply a unique debuff to enemies in their area, causing them to take 15% more damage from all sources.
Glamours apply a unique buff to allies in their area, causing them to deal 15% more damage.

This implementation would allow the Mesmer to potentially boost their party’s damage by 30%, but requires the party to be on top of the enemy for the duration of it (I’m hoping that this requirement becomes less of a no-brainer in future content). It doesn’t impede the mesmer’s ability to play the class, doesn’t interfere or overshadow boosts from other classes, and isn’t laughably outclassed by stuff that others get.

Obviously, we won’t get this, since the devs aren’t listening to input such as this, but this is a nice demonstration of how truly easy it could be to give mesmers some nice stuff that wouldn’t break the game.

apharma.3741:

So Pyro, how would you improve it?

I would scrap it entirely and come up with a new form of damage boost for mesmers. Mantras are clunky enough as is without forcing mesmers to either continually use them or not use them to obtain a damage boost.

We’re certainly not lacking for various mechanics that could be modified with a trait. Pick one.

Honestly, it doesn’t matter whether phantasms are affected or not, or whether it’s actually ferocity or if it’s actually damage. Think about it.

In order to reach the full stacks, we need 5 casts every 8 seconds. Making this into a decimal gets us .625 casts per second. MoP can provide 3 casts every 6 seconds on its own, so that gets us .5 casts per second. The next lowest cd mantra is the heal mantra, at 10 seconds. This gets us another 3 casts every 13 seconds, for another .230 casts per second. This brings us up to.755 casts per second in total.

So, in order to maintain full stacks of our buff, we will need to do literally nothing but spam MoP and MoR. Now and then we might be able to get one autoattack off, but that’s about it.

Ultimately, the particulars of how this trait works are completely irrelevant. In order to use the trait itself, you have to basically stop playing mesmer, and start playing some new class Anet has invented called ‘The mantra spammer’. You can do literally nothing but spam mantras if you want to maintain your buff.

Once again, I’d like to call attention to the fact that in order to maintain a 20% damage boost, warriors need to press F1 (which does a lot of damage) once every 10 seconds. In order to maintain a 20% damage boost…thing, mesmers have to completely shut down everything they’re doing except for pure upkeep of that buff.

This trait honestly might take the cake for most insulting and poorly designed trait of all time, even over disruptor’s sustainment. That trait was just amusingly bad, and sorta made you wonder what they were possibly thinking when they made it. This trait very clearly tells you what they were thinking:

“We want to give mesmers something to help them do more damage, but we don’t want it to be strong, because we’re too scared of what they might do to give them anything half-way decent. So, we’ll give them something that in theory can reach the potential of this trait that warrior gets, but instead of just letting them use it, we’re going to lock it behind the clunkiest and least-balanced set of skills in the game: mantras.”

Quadox.7834:

They just want you to play builds that require more skill than phant builds do. Which is a good thing.

As usual, you’re confusing skill floor and skill ceiling. Since you’re obviously unaware of the difference between those two terms, allow me to explain them for you in a simple way.

A skill floor is the minimum amount of skill it takes to do something. You can be more skillful than the skill floor of an activity and do it better, but the skill floor defines the lowest amount of skill you can have and still actually do that activity.

A skill ceiling is the highest amount of skill that an activity will benefit from. Having more skill than the skill ceiling will produce no further gains for that activity.

A phantasm build has a lower skill floor than a shatter build. This means that it takes more skill to make a shatter build work at all than it does to make a phantasm build work. However, both builds have an effectively unobtainable skill ceiling. This means that no matter how good you are, it’s still possible to improve and play that build better.

In the future, when you’re trying to insult people and builds by calling them ‘no-skill’ and ‘low-skill’ builds or players, please remember your vocabulary and apply a little bit of brainpower before speaking.

So with all of you guys having sightings, one would think that it wouldn’t be too hard to actually get a video of it happening…

Zumi.6384:

MSFone.3026:

not to mention imo DE is still totally mandatory.

I would have agreed in the past, but I think there’s some merit to replacing DE with Illusionary Reversion. Gaining a clone each time you shatter is huge, and it gives us the ability to gain 4 free clones instead of 2 (albeit on a somewhat longer cooldown depending on the shatter).

Plus, you don’t have to waste your dodges on generating clones, and Time Splitter can give you up to 8 free clones in theory.

It will require playtesting, but I’m not convinced DE is mandatory anymore.

I have a feeling that if you’re actually going for a shatter-based build…DE is still going to be mandatory. More than anything else, Illusionary reversion is going to allow shatter builds to reach a much higher cadence of shattering, particularly with the alacrity on shatter trait. What it won’t do is purely enable high output shattering by itself.

Illusionary reversion and chronophantasma combined could potentially allow a more phantasmy build to get some decent shatters out. It still wouldn’t be like a full shatter build by any stretch of the imagination, but it could enable a decent shantasm.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@Pyro
I hope I speak for everyone when I tell you Pyro you need to stop using colloquial phrases. Not everyone here is a native English speaker.

That’s ok, I’m not honestly going to get tied up about 100% clarity for everyone reading everything I post here.

Daniel Handler.4816:

It also includes cliche’s into the writing.

…what?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Second, you not explaining yourself or correcting me was to the detriment of the entire conversation.

Eh, I let it stand because your interpretation at that point was essentially the same as what I meant. It was only at this later point that the interpretation started to lose the original meaning.

Daniel Handler.4816:

In what body of science do they allow colloquial slang to permeate their writing.

Last time I checked, and correct me if I’m wrong, I was writing replies on an online informal forum about a video game. If I were writing an article for a peer reviewed journal, a formal mission statement, a proposal for funding, a results and analysis document of a test, or any other sort of official document, you can safely bet that I would be demonstrating a substantially different writing style.

None of those apply here. Trying to state that my writing style is inappropriate for a video game forum because it wouldn’t be appropriate for an official document is equal parts absurd, amusing, and foolish.

The other thing I’m displeased about with the mantra spam for damage trait they’ve given us is just how ridiculously difficult they always make it for mesmers to do any damage.

In order to obtain a 20% ferocity bonus (which is not even flat damage, but requires us to crit), mesmes has to absolutely nonstop spam multiple mantras. It applies an 8s buff that we need 5 stacks of to reach that 20%, which means we need to spam 5 mantras every 8 seconds. This has obvious implications to doing anything other than spamming mantras nonstop.

In order to reach a permanent 20% (flat damage, no messing with ferocity) damage bonus, warriors have to press F1 every 10 seconds.

TyPin.9860:

@Fay:
You (if I remember right) introduced the concept of damage control to me and claimed my examples weren’t counters. However, only Daniel explained the difference, you didn’t (unless I read it over). So I am going with Daniels explanation.

Daniel Handler.4816:

With a counter:

• no part of the desired effect of the skill occurs
• ex. with feedback from the instance the skill is cast I own the projectile and all its effects and the caster does not benefit in any way.

With damage control

• parts of the skill occur but damage is prevented
• ex. with black powder/whatever I perma blind a Mesmer as they are shattering. I am not harmed but the mesmer still gets the benefits of having shattered.

Is this a definition you would agree to? Because if so, the warbanner example would not be a counter (depending on what all includes “the desired effect”).

Also both Moa and Lich have the same cool down.

Personally I think, before we continue, we should be on the same level on what ‘damage control’, ‘counter’ and ‘hard counter’ actually means.

Actually, I meant damage control in the colloquial sense; ‘to do damage control’. The situation is already in the kittenter, you’re not gonna be able to really salvage it, but you can do a bit of damage control.

I just didn’t have the heart to correct kent on that one.

Curunen.8729:

apharma.3741:

The difference between a thiefs steal and ele attunement swap is it doesn’t gut half of if not more of your dps for using it. Well unless you’re a staff ele going out of fire in PvE.

I have no problem with being encouraged to use class mechanics, I like that. However it still doesn’t change a thing in PvE. If phantasms do more damage than a shatter and you have no clones or poor clone generation (which current phantasm builds do as no DE and only sword 2) then you’re not going to want to shatter.

The only way they would make a shatter build work in PvE is if they specifically said in mental torment: Does 200% more damage to NPCs. Anet doesn’t want to do stuff like this so it won’t happen.

Also before some smart alec turns round and says the meta will change for PvE, I don’t see anything the will change it except for open world and that’s already a “play how you like” type of place given how brain dead easy it is.

Well it should change.

I’m gonna downgrade this to could change.

The meta could change. It might not, but it could. We’ll just have to wait and see.

zone.1073:

imo, A and D should be strafe functions by default, forcing all players to learn to use the mouse to turn.

As long as you could rebind them into turning that would be fine. I personally use A and D for turning if I’m controlling purely the camera manually so that I can still steer while looking around.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

can feel like your driving a tank

This is basically keyboard turning in a nutshell. It feels like you’re driving a large tank instead of being capable of the fast movements necessary in PvP.

StickerHappy.8052:

You still don’t get the point, Moa makes Transformation elites useless.

This one line is the very crux of your entire argument. Unfortunately, it has no basis in either logic or reality, and is completely false. I’ve actually already addressed this in a previous post in this thread, but I’ll do it again here.

Your logic is as follows: Because a hardcounter exists to a given skill, that skill is useless.

This might not be what you intended to say, but it is in fact the basis of your argument. Moa is a hardcounter to lich, and because of the existence of moa, you have decided that lich useless.

Now that we’ve boiled your argument down to a single general statement, let’s start applying other situations to it, just to see if it even flirts with reality.

Example 1: Basilisk Venom
Basilisk venom is a stun. There are 2 hardcounters to stuns: stability and stun breaks. Almost every single pvp build in the game runs one or both of those. Does this fact make basi venom useless?
No.

Example 2: Any projectile attack
All reflectable projectile attacks are hard countered by reflects. Does the existence and possibility of reflects mean that projectile attacks are useless?
No.

Example 3: Warbanner
Warbanner is intended to revive people that are downed. However, poison affects the amount of health that it provides, causing it to fail to revive them unless they’re already very close to reviving anyway. This makes poison a hardcounter to the intended purpose of Warbanner. Does this make Warbanner useless?
No.

I could go on like this for almost every skill and skill type in the game. Phantasms and blinds, conditions and condition immunities, boons and boon strips or corruptions, any cc heavy skills and stability, but I think the point I’m getting at should become obvious.

The existence of a hardcounter does not cause the countered skill to become useless unless it completely and totally removed the ability to make use of the countered skill.

Is this the case with lich? No, obviously not. Lich is on a lower cooldown than moa, immediately meaning that you can use it when moa is on cooldown. Additionally, you can use it when the Mesmer is either not present in the fight, or not in a position to cast moa. Your team, knowing that lich will single-handedly win a teamfight for them, will manouver themselves to protect the lich, allowing for safe free casting (contrary to the arguments that you and typin have been making that seem to assume the lich’s team all go afk for those 20 seconds).

There are a multitude of ways in which lich can be successfully used even against a team with a moa Mesmer. The very existence of that hardcounter only provides the optional possibility of lich being countered, one that is conspicuously absent without moa. It does not, in any way, guarantee the countering of lich.

While it is very true that shatters are being strongly encouraged, I recommend you double check things before you go and say them.

The 15% phantasm damage trait in illusions will be made baseline for all phantasms. The existing 15% damage trait in domination will still be there. Additionally, many of the strong phantasm traits are becoming minors in inspiration, allowing for more useful major trait choices.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

This benefits condirupt. I made a build that uses these types of traits, and the immobilize on interrupt you can get in chaos.

Start of combat, scepter/pistol+X, perplexity runes, rabid or sinister gear.

1. summon duelist, 8 stacks confusion 8+ stacks bleed
2. blind with scepter 2, 2 stacks confusion
3. interrupt as they attempt to clear blind with pistol 5, 7 stacks of confusion
4. scepter 3, while interrupting with MoD, 7 stacks of confusion

This chain can then be repeated. All you need to do is lock down condi cleanse.

Also remember that maim is for shatter builds.

Or, you take maim instead.

Start of combat, scepter/pistol+X, perplexity runes, rabid or sinister gear.

1. summon duelist, 8 stacks confusion 8+ stacks bleed
2. Proc scepter block, 5 stacks of torment
3. interrupt as they attempt to clear torment, bleed, and confusion with pistol 5, 5 stacks of confusion
4. Shatter and scepter 3, while interrupting with MoD, another 5 stacks of confusion and 11 total stacks of torment.

Ultimately, maim is just better. You get far more pressure from your play. Even if you’re not a shatter focused build, you’ll still get more mileage out of maim because it’s just so easy to proc it all the time, whereas another 2 stacks of confusion now and then on blind, when your primary access to blind is shattering…it’s not good.

It’s a confusion based build and the normal version has you interrupting, thus immobilizing, the enemy with CI. In that instance torment isn’t super amazing. Also I need to fix the chain because I forgot you put confusing on crit as well. Your version includes shatters which, unless you assume I am using chronophantasma, reduces phantasm uptime. And the phantasm you are shattering are at 1200 range.

I realize that it’s a phantasm build without close range setup for shatters. That doesn’t change how useless BB is though.

How are you blinding? Well, you’ve got an easily avoided blind on a not low cooldown on scepter 2. That’s it. All other good blind access is through shatters, and if you’re shattering for blinds…you could be shattering for torment instead, and get far more out of it.

BB isn’t only about the blind; it’s also about the duration increase for confusion. Also very confused with you calling scepter 2 not low cooldown. I wasn’t under the impression it had to be. I can easily get the block to five seconds which is the ICD of BB. Perhaps you should stop focusing on the blinding aspect, obviously the devs designed it to be complementary and not central. But that is another matter entirely when a grandmaster is not strong enough to called so.

If you’re saying that a duration increase on confusion is the central quality of that trait, then you’ve made my argument for me. There is not even a remote possibility of that being more useful than maim in any possible or conceivable build, especially with the recent focus on pushing more builds towards shatter.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

This benefits condirupt. I made a build that uses these types of traits, and the immobilize on interrupt you can get in chaos.

Start of combat, scepter/pistol+X, perplexity runes, rabid or sinister gear.

1. summon duelist, 8 stacks confusion 8+ stacks bleed
2. blind with scepter 2, 2 stacks confusion
3. interrupt as they attempt to clear blind with pistol 5, 7 stacks of confusion
4. scepter 3, while interrupting with MoD, 7 stacks of confusion

This chain can then be repeated. All you need to do is lock down condi cleanse.

Also remember that maim is for shatter builds.

Or, you take maim instead.

Start of combat, scepter/pistol+X, perplexity runes, rabid or sinister gear.

1. summon duelist, 8 stacks confusion 8+ stacks bleed
2. Proc scepter block, 5 stacks of torment
3. interrupt as they attempt to clear torment, bleed, and confusion with pistol 5, 5 stacks of confusion
4. Shatter and scepter 3, while interrupting with MoD, another 5 stacks of confusion and 11 total stacks of torment.

Ultimately, maim is just better. You get far more pressure from your play. Even if you’re not a shatter focused build, you’ll still get more mileage out of maim because it’s just so easy to proc it all the time, whereas another 2 stacks of confusion now and then on blind, when your primary access to blind is shattering…it’s not good.

It’s a confusion based build and the normal version has you interrupting, thus immobilizing, the enemy with CI. In that instance torment isn’t super amazing. Also I need to fix the chain because I forgot you put confusing on crit as well. Your version includes shatters which, unless you assume I am using chronophantasma, reduces phantasm uptime. And the phantasm you are shattering are at 1200 range.

I realize that it’s a phantasm build without close range setup for shatters. That doesn’t change how useless BB is though.

How are you blinding? Well, you’ve got an easily avoided blind on a not low cooldown on scepter 2. That’s it. All other good blind access is through shatters, and if you’re shattering for blinds…you could be shattering for torment instead, and get far more out of it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

This benefits condirupt. I made a build that uses these types of traits, and the immobilize on interrupt you can get in chaos.

Start of combat, scepter/pistol+X, perplexity runes, rabid or sinister gear.

1. summon duelist, 8 stacks confusion 8+ stacks bleed
2. blind with scepter 2, 2 stacks confusion
3. interrupt as they attempt to clear blind with pistol 5, 7 stacks of confusion
4. scepter 3, while interrupting with MoD, 7 stacks of confusion

This chain can then be repeated. All you need to do is lock down condi cleanse.

Also remember that maim is for shatter builds.

Or, you take maim instead.

Start of combat, scepter/pistol+X, perplexity runes, rabid or sinister gear.

1. summon duelist, 8 stacks confusion 8+ stacks bleed
2. Proc scepter block, 5 stacks of torment
3. interrupt as they attempt to clear torment, bleed, and confusion with pistol 5, 5 stacks of confusion
4. Shatter and scepter 3, while interrupting with MoD, another 5 stacks of confusion and 11 total stacks of torment.

Ultimately, maim is just better. You get far more pressure from your play. Even if you’re not a shatter focused build, you’ll still get more mileage out of maim because it’s just so easy to proc it all the time, whereas another 2 stacks of confusion now and then on blind, when your primary access to blind is shattering…it’s not good.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

How many were running MoA? Im guessing 2 or 3 ran MI.

We just had 1 with moa. The necro was actually running plague, so it wasn’t as high a priority as it could have been.

I guess, but 4 Mi (?) isnt that too over abundant?

Not really, it’s not like you have to use it all the time certainly. It has a lot more general utility than moa does, and time warp really isn’t all that great (for mesmers in particular). In hindsight 1 time warp probably wouldn’t have hurt, but the ressing utitility of MI came in handy a lot of times.

Hmm I see, can you elaborate on the bunker builds you were running?
Also, Im guessing chaos and ross and tea didnt TS yesterday? So if that was the case, you couldve done a lot better if you guys have 5 people doing voice comms

Everyone was on TS, chaos didn’t talk. Ross was on TS, but unless you specifically tell it to, most recorders will not record what you’re personally saying.

I was running 4/4/0/6/0 with shattered conditions, warden’s feedback, and mender’s purity (and halting strike). Probably could have run glamour mastery for more portals, but not entirely sure if that would have been worth it. Sw/focus + gs, knights amulet. Double energy sigils, double doom sigils, and I ran melandru in the first match and pack in the second.

You’d have to ask vin exactly what she was running, I can’t recall of the top of my head.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

How many were running MoA? Im guessing 2 or 3 ran MI.

We just had 1 with moa. The necro was actually running plague, so it wasn’t as high a priority as it could have been.

I guess, but 4 Mi (?) isnt that too over abundant?

Not really, it’s not like you have to use it all the time certainly. It has a lot more general utility than moa does, and time warp really isn’t all that great (for mesmers in particular). In hindsight 1 time warp probably wouldn’t have hurt, but the ressing utitility of MI came in handy a lot of times.

StickerHappy.8052:

How many were running MoA? Im guessing 2 or 3 ran MI.

We just had 1 with moa. The necro was actually running plague, so it wasn’t as high a priority as it could have been.

chaoslordlol.3165:

First: is there any possible way to deal with a power thief cuz im just getting 2 hitted by backstabbers..

You need to avoid the backstab. Note when/how the thief stealths, then count and move. As long as you keep moving, they won’t be able to backstab you easily, and you can cover the last bit of the stealth with blurred frenzy or a dodge. Once they’re visible again, burst.

chaoslordlol.3165:

Second : how to deal with a necromancer when he has a full deathshroud

Interrupt him continually. Almost everything it does has a really long windup, so just keep rolling out the interrupts to stop the damage.

chaoslordlol.3165:

and how to counter lichform since its immune to daze and deals humungulous ammount of damage.

Moa morph. The only other way is to use a dedicated reflecting build, but that’s bad for other reasons.

chaoslordlol.3165:

Third : I somehow cant maintain a sustained damage against high defensive class builds for wariors engis, and especialy guardians they just passively overheal my sustain just the zerk deals some dmg, any advice about that?

As a shatter mesmer, your job description does not include killing bunkers by yourself. Your main role is to provide hard aoe damage pressure into teamfights to instakill people that are low, scare people away from stomping/ressing, and to provide some utility to secure stomps/resses yourself. Taking on a tanky warrior, guardian or turret engie really isn’t something you should be doing.

Law.1704:

I have tried both traditional shatter (my favourite), the double ranged shatter and the condi shatter and I am having trouble with some classes.

So the first thing to note is that as a power shatter build, you should very rarely be engaging anyone in a 1v1. Your job is to unload heavy aoe damage into a teamfight to secure kills and protect stomps/ressing. That being said, sometimes a 1v1 is unavoidable, so…

Law.1704:

1. Thieves – I basically have two choices run or die, I have tried dodging their stealth opener, using cc to hold them off bursting them first and I feel like I can’t do anything if I dodge their opener twice how do I punish them for missing it?

Thieves are squishier than you. If you land a solid burst, they will die. Depending on their weaponset, you’ll need to take a somewhat varied approach. If d/p, then you’ve got a really juice target for interrupting. They’re going to try to stealth up with bp→hss, so interrupt it with whatever you’ve got. If that gets interrupted, they’re really vulnerable. They’ll be low on initiative, not in stealth, and burstable. A good burst at this point will often kill them.

S/d thieves are a bit more challenging, because they have no really nice burst windows. The best you’ll get is right after flanking strike, where they’re trying to land larcenous. Interrupting that can be nice, but bursting during that can be good as well.

Additionally, doing a really fast instant burst right after they’ve opened with some sort of cc (steal/basi/sword stealth attack). The thief generally won’t be thinking about damage avoidance at this point, so a fast stunbreak into a burst can be really effective.

Law.1704:

2. Med guardians – I think their just really good against anything in zerker amulet but with the passive blocks and double invulnerably even if I land a full shatter on them they just outlast my burst and I’m dead.

So guardians are similar to mesmers in how they work. They have a high close range burst damage combo deal. Additionally, they’re almost as squishy as thieves. Glass amulet and low base health means they can drop fast. The difference is that after that combo is finished, the guardian still has high sustained close range damage, and the mesmer has nada. If you stay close vs a guardian, you’ll die fairly quickly. You need to get close for a burst, then get yourself back out to range immediately. The passive blocks aren’t really an issue since both your clones and the gs autoattack are great at popping them. Your primary concern is not dallying at close range where the guard can just keep chewing on you.

Law.1704:

3. Shout bow – They can’t kill me but I will never kill them either do I just walk away from this one?

There’s never a good reason for you to be 1v1ing a shoutbow. Theoretically speaking, it’s possible to kill it eventually, but the time you waste doing that isn’t even remotely worth it, and you’ve got basically a 100% chance of getting +1’d and killed at some point.

Alright, so for PvE, you’ve got 2 basically different builds depending on what you’re doing.

If you’re doing open world (personal story counts), you’ll want sw/foc+Gs. Traits will be something along the lines of 2/4/0/5/3.

In dungeons, the sw/f+sw is what you’ll want to be running. For a bit of a more in-depth explanation of it, you should look at the stickied dungeon guide. I’ll try to clear up some of your confusion now though.

The reason you use 1 mainhand sword with a focus and oh sword is because mainhand sword is the only mainhand weapon that mesmer has capable of doing noticable damage. The only other option is scepter, which is awful. Both of our 2-handed weapons are awful for damage at close range (greatsword) or just awful for power damage in general (staff). This leaves us using 2 different offhands with the only worthwhile mainhand.

What exactly was confusing about the phantasms for you?

Sadrien.3470:

Also note that you can still be hit by another mesmers shatter well under the affect of blur if the shatter is initiated before blurred frenzy and the clones land after the blur affect is applied. Confirmed as of 2014, maybe they fixed it now but it has not been in any patch notes.

This…doesn’t seem right. This interaction would make zero sense with how the skills work. I’ll test it, stand by.

Edit: Tested it, this is 100% false. I honestly think this never ever was a thing, but I can’t prove that obviously.

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

witcher.3197:

Daniel Handler.4816:

(…)

If blood was added instead of leeching that’s because blood was used at tournaments or by top streamers and not leeching, as we don’t add things randomly. Leeching works best if you have a geomancy, hydromancy or an already placed AoE to proc it, otherwise it can be dodged or blinded. When you swap to sword that usually happens because you are being focused, very often by a thief in which case melee combat is unavoidable and proccing blood more than once shouldn’t be too hard. Both sigils have pros and cons but neither of them are main recommendations.

Sadrien.3470:

I think all my suggestions I pmed to witcher deserve 100gold each…. where’s my 1k gold in the mail.

Yes like adding runes that are at least 2 years outdated, sure great suggestions. Or the one where you did not realize that staff is listed on the build and were ranting about how the usage has parts about staff?

Give me my money. The part about sword and blurred frenzy is blatantly wrong. As I said in the post I don’t care how you feel about blood sigil, I have this other part as backup l want my money.

BF certainly isn’t distortion. Retal and condi procs anyone? My fav is landing a scepter 2 5 stacks torment on a Bkitten mesmer. Anyway, a bad links a bad link.

The appropriate effect is Blur, and there should be an individual wiki page for it, which unfortunately for you there’s not. Metabattle oversight; should have checked your sources.

+1 for Metabattle. Worth the 100g.

BF was Distortion before, now its just an evade or something.

Blurred frenzy never provided distortion properly; it never interacted with the reflect trait. It did, however, provide invuln like distortion did.

This was nerfed a very long time ago, I think close to a year and a half or so. There’s no excuse for linking to distortion now.

Vermil Rockrim.9756:

[english isn’t my native tongue, if you find any mistakes please let me know so I can improve]

Hello everyone, Mesmer was my favorite class on gw1 (at least on lower levels, I only played the free trial) but on gw2 it seems a lot different, hence I made a Ranger which has been my main since release (no alts).

Now, I insta leveled a Mesmer to 80 and I’m struggling to get a grip on the class. I tried a shatter build with IP and GS burst (stack vulnerability->skills 4-2-3->shatter) but I feel like a sitting duck while waiting on cooldown. I checked this website http://osicat.weebly.com and I’m currently watching videos and reading the guides posted there, and it is mentioned somewhere that “You can also chose among several different viable builds, some of which are more newbie friendly” .. which lead me to think: where are those guides, exactly?

Are there any “newbie mesmer guides” or “mesmer 101” videos around?
If you do know some of them, or have any advice I’ll be grateful. In the meantime, I’m reading about Pyroatheist Immortal guide since tanky builds tends to be easier to play.

Have a great day.
Ray F.

Well, I’m afraid to say that my old Immortal build is no longer something that exists. That was nuked out of existence by Anet just about 1 year ago.

That being said, there’s lots of other builds nowadays that work quite effectively. As was recommended, Chaos’ guide is extremely detailed and will help enormously.

You mentioned that you’re mainly interested in WvW. Do you primarily roam solo, roam in a group, or play in large groups?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Oh my sweet sweet Pyro. Sweet darling Pyro. Viable and optimal are not the same word. Please stop confusing them. That goes for all of you.

• Learn what words mean.
• Stop assuming without valid textual evidence.
• Stop responding to singular untruths if you won’t comment also on the whole of the argument. (it stagnates the debate)

Is running shatter in pve viable: yes it will just be harder.
Is it optimal: no it is not, but why would you need to care about optimal in non competitive environments.

Really not that hard people.

Meh, I was responding in general to the spirit of the original question, not the letter.

Is shatter viable? Yes. Is it optimal? No. Was the original poster asking whether shatter is possible to run in PvE? No, they were asking about whether it’ll ever be a good and proper choice to do.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

If by some chance 80%-100% alacrity (+ quickness or chronophantasma) in 6/6/0/0/0/6 allows mesmer to continuously shatter and generate enough iSwordman/iDuelists……….that’ll probably reach around 2 phantasm’s sustain damage on pure phantasm build, but hard math is needed.

Regardless it’ll be fun to type a lot more buttons like a maniac, a good change from 1112111 sword haha.

Yeah, that seems like it would be really fun to play, I’d do it xD

Capricorn XI.4390:

Suboptimal build bickering aside, shatter builds won’t be viable in dungeons unless phantasm builds are so weak that shattering is our only option.

This isn’t really true though. As I said in the second response to this thread, if, through some series of undetermined buffs, shatter damage is buffed enough that it surpasses what a phantasm build can do, then it would be quite viable.

Morfedel.4165:

Yes my build does not maximize dps, but dps isn’t everything.

Actually, it is. If you don’t bring dps, you’re effectively useless. So what if you’re surviving? You’re not contributing to the party. Additionally, there’s absolutely no reason to use anything other than a full dps build if you’re a good player. I haven’t done any PvP in less than full zerk and a zerk damage build in years. I rarely die in dungeons, because I know how the fights work, and I’m good at this game. If you’re not as good as I am, then you can simply substitute knights/cavs gear for zerker to gain enhanced survivability without gimping yourself with an awful build.

Morfedel.4165:

Master of none also correct. What it gives me is expanded options.

No, it means you’re not proactive enough to change your build based on the game type you’re playing (which takes all of 15 seconds) and would rather use a build that isn’t good in any of them if it means it’s just passable in all of them.

Morfedel.4165:

My Arah build is a little different but still based off options rather than dps.

What options? Not dpsing and letting your team do all the work? A full zerker build can have all of the utility it’s possible to need in a dungeon. You can bring reflects, stability, condition removal, and boon strip all without losing damage. Using a low dps build and saying ‘oh, but it gives me more options’ is simply flat out false.

Morfedel.4165:

I love watching when something goes wrong and all the zerkers die. I usually have to break combat, step back and wait for the rest to come back.

Maybe if you were contributing to dps with the rest of your party, the fight wouldn’t have gone wrong because the boss would have been dead.

Morfedel.4165:

That last time in Arah, when we ran through one of the running sections, I got through and watched them struggle. Good players n but having a bad day. I didn’t have an issue because I had more survivability. I ended up making ice cream and coffee while waiting on them.

Anecdotes like this are wonderful, because they mean nothing. ‘Oh, I was in this party with zerkers and they all died over and over in a running section, but I was in tank gear so I made it fine’. Watch, I can do it too:

‘Almost every Arah I’ve ever run has been in a party of full zerkers, but because we’re not bad, nobody dies when we run.’

Morfedel.4165:

I’ve outperformed dps builds in pve.

No you haven’t. Outperforming a build in PvE means you did more damage than it. Your build doesn’t do good damage, and so it definitionally can not outperform a dps build.

Morfedel.4165:

I’ve bested dps builds in pvp.

PvP is an entirely different beast. That being said, your build sounds like a shantasm build from the way you described playing it. Those have been tried. They’ve also been abandoned because they’re not good. I could beat people with a 2/2/2/2/2 build in PvP. Does that mean it’s a good build? Of course not, it just means that the people I’m fighting are bad.

Morfedel.4165:

I’m saying there is more than one way to skin a cat, and claiming there is only ONE TRUE WAY is arrogant, ignorant, hide-bound and close-minded.

This is completely wrong. There absolutely is an optimal way to play in PvE. No amount of whining is going to change that. The way you’re playing is sub-optimal, also known as worse.

Now, as I’ve said before, I honestly have no personal problem with people that like to use sub-optimal builds in PvE. It’s your choice, do what you want. What I have a problem with is when people like you come onto the forums and try to tell everyone that your sub-optimal build is actually great, when it’s not. That’s being intentionally misleading and is doing a disservice to those who come to the forums to learn how to play better.

Morfedel.4165:

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

Phantasms are immune to some of his AoE attacks.

Morfedel.4165:

My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions

That’s just terrible. Please don’t run Staff nor Chaotic Dampening in CoE, our dps is already at all time low and you’re making it even lower with shatters, and then you’re further gimping it by wasting 4 points into a useless line and a useless trait. Also, your goal is to maintain 3 phantasms so dump Deceptive Evasion, it will only prevent you from achieving that goal every time you dodge, and in CoE you will dodge a lot.

It saddens me seeing people run complete crap and think it’s actually good.

You know, that’s funny. That you think you know everything, that is. I didn’t say I was dedicated to using phantasms OR shatters. Its a Jack of all trades build designed to do va little bit of all kinds of things. It does just fine in coe.

It also does Pretty good in pvp. So-so in wvw.

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Your build is barely not crap at everything, and good at nothing. I guess if you’re happy with being barely not crap at everything you do, that’s fine. Most of us like to strive to be just a bit better than that though.

It’s amusing that you’re trying to argue PvE effectiveness with Frifoxy though. He, better than anyone, can tell you whether your build is good or not.

As has been said so many times before anything “works” in PvE. The mere fact that it works doesn’t mean it works well, and doesn’t mean you’re anything other than useless dead weight being carried on a team.