Guild Wars 2

Goodness there’s a lot of faulty logic in this paragraph. Let’s see.

TyPin.9860:

The only issue on top of my head I know, where elites can completely be nullified, is Moa and Moa in interaction with other Transforms.

Really?

Mass invis: Nullified with any reveal application, sic em is a good one.
Warrior battle standard: Can be nullified with poison on downed folks.
Ranger entangle: Nullified with condition removal and/or a movement skill.

I could go on, but I’m sure my point is coming through clear. Most elite sin the game have the capability to be completely nullified in a lot of ways.

TyPin.9860:

Yes anyone can be Moa’d, but in the current situation of the game, Moa is reserved by most players for Lich and other transforms. Lich, as has been told by several Mesmers, is often the only reason they even slot Moa.

So what? This is just an explanation of the fact that mesmers use Moa on lich form. You’re not making the connection between ‘being used frequently on’ and ‘is overpowered, please nerf’.

TyPin.9860:

The Necromancer currently is better of taking less useful elites like Flesh Golem or even just let the elite slot empty. Then he might get Moa’d less, for less Mesmers will slot Moa, if Lich wasn’t commonly used, or the slotted Moa might be even better used on that pesky Shoutbow Warrior^^.

No, this makes no sense at all. Why does necromancer slot Lich? Because it’s unbelievably good. Why do mesmers use moa against it? Because it counters an incredibly strong skill. The necromancer not taking lich just makes them less useful, because it means they don’t have the ability to use that incredibly strong skill. Whether or not they get moad has absolutely no bearing on this.

TyPin.9860:

With Lich in most situations Necromancers in matches involving Mesmers (an any match I had so far as Powermancer, when the enemy team had a Mesmer, they used Moa) are a liability to their team. My idea was to reduce this liability factor.

This is really the worst part of all your arguments. You’re trying to make the case that because a necromancer gets moad and dies, they’re a liability to their team, and so moa shouldn’t affect them as much. This…is so absurd I’m not sure where to start. As I said before, it doesn’t matter who or what gets moad, they end up dying as a result of it. You’re literally saying ‘Necromancers are special, and they shouldn’t have to deal with what everyone else has to deal with when they get hit with moa’. This is baseless and makes no sense.

Yes, necromancers will get moad when they use lich. No, them getting moad when they use lich doesn’t make them a liability to the team, it simply means that when someone gets moad, they tend to die. Moa was originally used to break a bunker guardian. Your argument could be applied there too: ‘Bunker guardians will always get moad, so there’s no reason in taking a bunker guardian, as they simply end up as a liability to the team’. See how this starts getting absurd? You could make the case for moa to not work on literally any high priority target with the same (lack of) logic.

TyPin.9860:

And I honestly was shocked how Lich form is perceived by Mesmers, because I as main Mesmer never perceived Lich that threatening.

Perhaps you’ve never been on the receiving end of a lich form then. After you get 2shot by a lich, you’ll probably perceive it as fairly threatening.

Timelord.8190:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Timelord.8190:

Zarania.6235:

AresFyra.3570:

Thanks Zarania!! Woohoo, some love!

If you thought I dealt with everything nicely before… …

To be frank, my game play was not up to par before.

But it is now. Plus the music is better.

No problem sweetie, I’m all about positivity!!

Yea, you’re a little positive hacker, arent you? Which anet is to lazy to do something about even when we throw proof in their faces. Like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce1BRAXLvH0

This is when someone says that was just lag.

Anyway, the names match but the account numbers dont.

I’m pretty sure it’s the same person. Just with another account.I’ve seen Zarania.6235 cheat earlier to with my own eyes.

‘Look, here’s a hacker, this person is totally hacking!!!!!111’

‘Nice vid, obviously a hacker…but that’s not the same person…’

‘Well, I’m sure it’s totally the same person, trust me.’

…ok

Sadrien.3470:

I’m counting LoS into a factor of my survival. And if I get in another 1v1 vs a lich necromancer I will get a recording program and show you it lol. It’s not a very hard fight if you know they are gonna lich. If your caught by surprise the first lich auto can take you to 50% hp and the second can kill you. ( assuming some sigil procs and the necromancer critting) if you plan on standing in front of a lich you need feedback.

Ok, so you’re counting LoS. Lets explore that for a moment.

So you’re fighting this necro. There’s basically 2 possibilities here. Either you’re 1v1ing on a point (why is a power necro 1v1ing a mesmer on a point?) or you’re the 1 guy sent to deal with the necro that’s tearing apart your team fight.

First possibility: on the point. Necro goes lich, you LoS. Congratulations, you just lost the point!

Second possibility: In a team fight. Necro goes lich, you go after necro, and then you LoS. Congratulations, you’re completely unable to engage the necro, and they can happily continue tearing apart your team!

In neither case do you accomplish anything successful. LoS is fine if you’re dueling just for the sake of dueling, but that’s not what this discussion is about.

@TyPin:

Let me note that I didn’t begin this discussion about lich counters, I simply entered it after seeing people erroneously stating that lich was easily countered by x y and z.

As for your original argument…it makes zero sense to me. Let me run through it real fast. You essentially stated that you think it hurts too much for a necro in lich form to be turned into a moa, because you usually end up dying while in moa form.

My question is…so what? What makes necros in lich form so special that when they get moad, they don’t actually go moa form? Dying in moa form is what happens to any player in the game when they get moad. Necromancers in lich form are no different, and the fact that they were in lich when they got hit with moa doesn’t make the ultimate outcome any different. The only thing that lich does is make the necro a high priority target for moa, due to moa being the single counter to lich form. What happens afterwards is simply what happens when someone gets moad.

There is no reason for a lich hit by moa not to end up as a moa. It’s not more painful for a necro in lich than it is for anyone else in the game. You get moad, you die, that’s just the way it works.

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Except that isn’t comparable proof. One is objective and mathematical and uses the coefficients of the skill, it requires no video. The other is subjective. You can’t always dodge the AA, but a Lich blast will always inflict damage in a high mathematical range if it hits. If you respond “but it doesn’t always hit”, you need to show me the probabilities of how often it hits. Again requiring a video.

To expand on that idea:

Based on the math of the skill, I can say with absolute certainty that if you get hit ~5 times (absolute maximum, probably closer to 3 times) with the lich autoattack, you will die.

You’ve countered by saying ‘but you can block and dodge and blind all the attacks, so that’s not going to happen’.

I already proved my case, it’s on you to prove your statement.

If a mesmer takes mirror and has sword skills they can easily 1v1 a lich, its not even a problem for me as a 266 lockdown build with no stab strip on shatters. That said this argument is not about 1v1ing a lich its about if moa should cancel lich and still transform your foe. I believe the best solution is to have the necro return to lich after the duration of moa is over but others may chose differently if they believe differently or have different experiences.

That’s easy to say, but significantly harder to do.

I’m assuming that you’re going to be very glassy, so you’ll have around 18.5k hp and 2100 armor. With those stats, every autoattack from the lich will hit you for ~5k damage, conservatively. This means that you get 3.7 hits before you’re dead. Tack on a bit of healing and I’ll give you 5…but then add in fire/air sigils and chill of death brings us back down to 3 at the most.

So, roughly speaking, you can get hit by 3 hits before you’re dead. Explain to me how a 2 second reflection and a 2.5 second evade are going to let you live through an autoattack roughly every second for 20 seconds.

As per usual, if you really feel you can do that, feel free to take a video of it happening. Until then, I’m going to call it nothing but fantasy.

Daniel Handler.4816:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Except that isn’t comparable proof. One is objective and mathematical and uses the coefficients of the skill, it requires no video. The other is subjective. You can’t always dodge the AA, but a Lich blast will always inflict damage in a high mathematical range if it hits. If you respond “but it doesn’t always hit”, you need to show me the probabilities of how often it hits. Again requiring a video.

To expand on that idea:

Based on the math of the skill, I can say with absolute certainty that if you get hit ~5 times (absolute maximum, probably closer to 3 times) with the lich autoattack, you will die.

You’ve countered by saying ‘but you can block and dodge and blind all the attacks, so that’s not going to happen’.

I already proved my case, it’s on you to prove your statement.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Mesmers are pretty good in low-mid tier PvP. It’s not the class, but the cele meta and thieves that keep us down.

Not exactly. Mesmers are great in low-tier PvP because bad players have monumental difficulties against mesmer purely on the basis of how our mechanics work. However, anyone that is somewhat experienced in PvP won’t have this massive problem, and will see mesmers not as some impossibly op obstacle in their way.

At any rate, I could obviously go through that post and show why each his points are, at best, momentarily flirting with reality, but it’s reaaaaly not worth my effort.

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

StickerHappy.8052:

Haven’t you guys tried blinking away from the lich and waiting for the elite to wear off?

This counts as running away. Last time I checked, running away from a fight is a good way to lose it and the point you were fighting over.

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

Alpha.1308:

Windwalker.7421:

I don’t think it’ll be hard to land, really. With CS and Shattered Concentration you can just get a couple clones up and F3, and chances are you will strip or forcibly remove Stab, and then a Daze/Stun will land and possibly interrupt.

Or any shatter plus MoD, or combo MoD with any other CC first to remove the stab. It’s not like we don’t have multiple options there. ;-)

speaking of which
what happens if you have Shattered Concentration, and Confounding Suggestions, then daze a target that has 1 stack of Stability with Diversion with 1 clone?
does your Confounding Suggestions, being a 100% chance to proc, start cool down immediately, so a quick Power Lock wouldn’t be able to stun?
or would it not count as a “when you daze a target” because they…. weren’t dazed
probably too soon to ask since it’s not even testable yet, but…. note worthy… to myself, at least

If the target gets dazed, then they get stunned. What you’re actually asking is whether shattered concentration applies before or after the main effect of the shatter, and I don’t know the answer to that.

CobraPolo.1723:

Shatter I personally like in PvE. If built right you can give yourself CRAZY amounts of might which is good for boss fights.

Shatter is bad in PvE for anything outside of map completion. Yeah, you can give yourself some ok might (but less than an ele/warrior/engineer can), and you’ll still do even worse damage than a phantasm build will. If you’re using shatter, you’re making an enormous mistake.

Silv.9207:

Fay.2357:

Silv.9207:

With a Slow skill, you don’t need ever a high defensive build.

Uhm.

Silv.9207:

If the enemy is afflicted by slow you can evade easy it’s attack with dodge, and in some cases just by move away.

…you do realize dodges are limited, right? Having the reaction to dodge something doesn’t mean you’re actually able to dodge it.

Silv.9207:

(more than actually is. And actually is one of the best classes in spvp, with a good dps build).

all of my wat

I know you’re not, but please say you’re just trolling…

Actually I play mesmer only a little, but I don’t need a defensive build because I’ve already clone swaps, hide, high range weapons, blur and teleport. Why I need more defence than that if the enemy hit me 50% slower? It’s dps is reduced by 50%!

We can not have always a dodge or vigor, but we have a lot of skills that interrupt the enemy, granting us the chance to do it even better, adding slow to the enemy that we interrupt, making it really suffer of slow for all the duration of the figth, while we can have quickness up very often.

And about the thing that Mesmer is one of the powerful classes in spvp, it’s true. You can not belive that, but I can deal 15k of damage to a single enemy before he can hit me, more or less in 5 seconds. (and more damage against a light user with berserker like a necro). Then I hide or clone swap (depending on the weapon I chose to use, if staff or sword/torch), or active blur with Sword, dealing damage, or Distortion with F4 (with the right build I’ve 4 sec of distortion and always 1 if I’ve no active clones) or simply active Moa Form.

Yes, mesmer is really a bad class. Never play mesmer. It’s a total failure. We need more buffs like constant projectile reflection, easy quickness and slow all the time on the enemy to survive because actually we can’t even kill a necro!

There’s some classes that can kill a mesmer “easy” but, ehy, you can’t pretend to be unkillable! And I’ve seen mesmers kill 2 enemy at the same time. There’s a video of a mesmer killing 4 enemy in spvp. They’re 100% noobs, but ehi, they’re in 4 vs 1. I’ve lost the link but if I find it I will post it here.

Seriously, if you think that the mesmer isn’t one of the best classes in spvp you have to learn to play.

And with that specializzation I hope that also nther classes obtain something like that because if not I really will make it my main tspvp class.

Words fail me.

…they don’t actually. That rarely actually happens. I’m just too tired to respond to…this.

TyPin.9860:

And the low attack frequency of Lich allows for reapplying blindness or X amount of blocks to be very effective.

What? The lich auto fires every 1.1 seconds (according to the wiki). That’s not a low attack frequency by any stretch of the imagination. I’d like to see you apply a block or blind every 1.1 seconds.

TyPin.9860:

If we keep observing D/P thieves, they can imob you with short bow from stealth and then blinding powder you. Don’t let me now explain every single strategy that can be used to deal with Lich.

This isn’t exactly safe or easy for the thief to do you realize. The immob has to hit, then they have to get close enough to drop the blinding powder without the lich instakilling them (yes, this is possible on a thief. A single attack will do 5.5k to a thief, and any other damage drops them into range of chill of death to finish them off), and then the lich has to not use any condition removal, which they do have access to. On top of all that, the immob only lasts 2 seconds. Hardly a good counter.

TyPin.9860:

Also have you fought competent guardians with Lich? Multiple blind applications (GS#3, Focus #4 + bounces, traited F1) and have reliable blocks/invulns (focus #5, Renewed Focus) and Aegis.

Again, none of these can stop an autoattack. Imagine a warrior standing in front of you with an axe. He is autoattacking. You’re not allowed to move out of range, but you’re allowed to use blinds and blocks to drop and stop the attacks. How much do you think you could stop?

The answer is: not a lot. You could stop a couple, for a little bit, but the vast majority of damage would come through.

TyPin.9860:

Both btw. Thief and Guardian, have good chances to kill you, while your damage is nullified. You can try to still do damage to someone else during this, but likely chances are, you might not even hit something and go down…

While your damage is nullified? You’re saying this like anything you’ve mentioned stops more than a single autoattack from the lich. A thief (as I explained above) can very potentially be instakilled by a lich autoattack. A medi-guard would take maybe 3 hits.

TyPin.9860:

On many maps there are obstacles that can easily be used to LoS Lich without “running away”. In 1v1 situation forcing the Lich to turn actually is a valid and effective strategy.

There’s only one point in the game that has the ability to LoS without leaving the point. Leaving the point is effectively running away as far as PvP is concerned.

TyPin.9860:

Are you telling me that as Mesmer you actually commonly lose against Lich when he focuses you back?

When I have the occurrence of fighting a lich, I’m generally in a build with 3000 armor, a block, and double energy sigils. If it’s just me and the lich from the start, there’s absolutely no way I’ll be able to go toe go toe with them. If you’d like to dispute that, feel free to produce a video of you doing so.

On top of all of this, you’re completely ignoring something huge.

If I boil down all your suggestions for countering lich, they basically come to ‘if the thief, guard, and mesmer on your team all throw literally everything they have at the lich, they can be controlled.’ So…what is the rest of the lich’s team doing in this fight? Do you think they’re standing on the sidelines twiddling their thumbs and waiting for you guys to finish killing their necromancer?

Of course they’re not. While you guys are unloading literally every single damage avoidance utility that you have on the lich, they’ll be going to town on you. The potential ability to keep a lich from decimating your team is completely meaningless if it requires your team to have a 100% concerted effort to keep them from doing so.

Again, I’m sure you’re going to reply with something along the lines of ‘oh, but it doesn’t take 100% team effort to do that, just a single good guardian or mesmer can go toe to toe with a lich no problem.’ Before you say that, prove it. Common knowledge says that a massive cooldown, incredibly powerful elite isn’t going to be countered by just a single glassy person spamming a couple blinds. If you really want to make the claim that you can duel a lich one on one as a guard or mesmer, go do it, record it, and show it to us. Until you manage that, I’m going to just label any claims of that feat as pure fantasy.

This occurs when you have placed the portals too far apart. They do have a max range, although it is not indicated in any way whatsoever.

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

The leaderboards tracked your ability to win matches very effectively. If you win a lot, you’d sit at the top. Apparently, that decap thief was highly effective at winning. Trying to claim that the leaderboards meant nothing is just making yourself look foolish. If they meant nothing, why did every single notable player on the top teams sit near the tops of them?

Leader boards aren’t tracking your win to loss ratio they track quantity of points score, it just happens to be that all the top players play lots of matches so they score high on the leader boards.

Old leaderboards, not these broken ones.

How old are you talking about ? They changed them several times.

From when there was (as I referenced) a team queue and solo queue.

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

The leaderboards tracked your ability to win matches very effectively. If you win a lot, you’d sit at the top. Apparently, that decap thief was highly effective at winning. Trying to claim that the leaderboards meant nothing is just making yourself look foolish. If they meant nothing, why did every single notable player on the top teams sit near the tops of them?

Leader boards aren’t tracking your win to loss ratio they track quantity of points score, it just happens to be that all the top players play lots of matches so they score high on the leader boards.

Old leaderboards, not these broken ones.

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

The leaderboards tracked your ability to win matches very effectively. If you win a lot, you’d sit at the top. Apparently, that decap thief was highly effective at winning. Trying to claim that the leaderboards meant nothing is just making yourself look foolish. If they meant nothing, why did every single notable player on the top teams sit near the tops of them?

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

That’s a bit of an understatement. Metabattle.com, at least for mesmer, is just about as close to a complete joke as is possible to achieve. If you want to learn how to play or what build to use, refer to some of the guides made by folks that are actually competent (yes, including shatter. Supcutie has a wonderful guide for that, and he’s quite competent you’ll agree.)

Silv.9207:

With a Slow skill, you don’t need ever a high defensive build.

Uhm.

Silv.9207:

If the enemy is afflicted by slow you can evade easy it’s attack with dodge, and in some cases just by move away.

…you do realize dodges are limited, right? Having the reaction to dodge something doesn’t mean you’re actually able to dodge it.

Silv.9207:

(more than actually is. And actually is one of the best classes in spvp, with a good dps build).

all of my wat

I know you’re not, but please say you’re just trolling…

TyPin.9860:

@Fay
The common IP power shatter for instance has a 4s (or so) reflect.

So, as I said, the lich autoattacks somebody else for 4 seconds.

TyPin.9860:

Also CCing a lich is a thing. With just F3 (again talking IP power shatter) you will likely daze him.

Yes, you dazed him. For 1 second. Out of the 20 seconds he’s in lich form. This is why I stated that CC is not a counter to lich form. CCing the lich for a second is in no way, shape, or form anything even resembling a counter or lockdown.

TyPin.9860:

Abusing LoS is the most common counter

This is more commonly known as ‘running away’. It works fine, but it guarantees you to lose whatever fight you were previously in.

TyPin.9860:

or just meleeing the lich and moving through him to force him to turn also puts the Lich in a tough spot.

If ‘forcing the lich to turn’ is your idea of countering them…I’ve got some bad news for you.

TyPin.9860:

And nobody actually claimed you could effectively lock a Lich down (well except with Moa of course).

Really? Lets see…

TyPin.9860:

I myself have locked down Lichs in PvP and have been locked down by Mesmers under Lich form both IP Power Shatter and Lockdown alike without the use of Moa.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you literally said exactly that. I’m just saying that you’re wrong.

TyPin.9860:

Most commonly I as a Lich am countered by Guardians (blocks/blinds)

Aegis and single blinds do not counter autoattacks. What you’re confusing are the terms ‘counter’ and ‘damage control’. Aegis and blinds can do damage control on the incredible amount of power a lich has, they don’t counter it.

TyPin.9860:

and D/P theives (Black Poweder: blinds). It ain’t half truths, those are things I experience all the time when I use that Elite.

If you stay still and stand in a black powder, then you’re not playing well. Thief blinds outside of you literally just standing still in a black powder are similar to guards in that they’ll block one attack here and there, but the bulk of the damage will still get through.

TyPin.9860:

And as I remembered from before: Lich, when unattended, just destroys everything. But when even just one capable player focuses the Lich, the party for him is mostly over. I do not know where the ideas of unconquerable Lich come from, but in my experience that isn’t so hard.

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

Ultimately, again, this all adds up to moa being the only actual effective and realistic counter to lich form. Everything else either doesn’t actually work if you apply just a bit of critical thinking to it, or involves losing the fight one way or another.

Fixing broken thread.

Calliope.8675:

Fay.2357:

This refers to the value of an arena token if you wanted to buy it with gems as opposed to getting it for free from the glorious reward track.

Can’t buy them with gems anymore. There is a vendor in the Mists who sells them for 2g.

Oh

Curunen.8729:

Regarding the guild and custom arena time tokens – I applied 15 tokens to the OMFG arena a few days ago and in the motd it says they are worth 2 gold each?

I don’t mean to be annoying, but who can I speak to regarding this? Thanks.

I believe you may have misread the MOTD. It says, and I quote ‘as it gives a free custom arena token (worth 2g!)’

This refers to the value of an arena token if you wanted to buy it with gems as opposed to getting it for free from the glorious reward track.

On the topic of other counters existing for lich…this is more of a half-truth than anything else.

How about reflects?

Yes, reflects do a nice job of countering lich. No, nobody usually has any reasonable access to reflects in PvP, especially not the mesmer.

The vast majority of mesmers don’t run with a focus (the majority of our reflects when traited). The vast majority of mesmers that run with a focus don’t trait it, so that source of reflects is gone.

The vast majority of mesmers don’t run with mirror, because now and then reflecting something isn’t worth the massive healing boost that ether feast enjoys over it (might change once it’s a manip and has a lower cd).

This leaves feedback (a utility skill that fits somewhere between blink, decoy, and a condie removal somehow?) and masterful reflection, which only works for the mesmer themselves, and for a maximum of 4 seconds. If the necro spams into that, they’re really bad.

How about other classes? Well, of the other classes you find in PvP, the only one with access to reflects would be the guardian, through wall of reflection. Now and then you’ll see this taken, but it’s comparatively rare. In addition, the necro can just walk around it, or choose targets that are on the same side of the wall.

How about CC?

Ok, ccing a necro in lich isn’t actually a thing. Yes, I know some people have given lovely anecdotes about ‘that one time they interrupted a necro in lich form’. This requires you to unload 4 hard ccs in 3 seconds onto the lich. That’s higher than a cc per second, on average. While this is possible to do for a second or two perhaps (the cc from a single burst of shatters and such), it’s not a counter unless you can reliably keep them locked down.

If you want to argue that you can actually lock down a lich, you’re going to have to show me skills that are able to provide a cc rate of 4 hard ccs per 3 seconds (and no, rampage is NOT an acceptable answer).

The other alternative, of course, is continual boon stripping. However, due to the high re-application rate of the boons, not even a pDisenchanter can keep up with it. That’s not even counting various other boons they’ll be getting from their party. Since mesmer boon stripping doesn’t prioritize stab (if anything, it’s low priority based on my testing) it’s nearly impossible to strip that stab in any situation other than by pure dumb luck.

So….what does that leave us with? Well, the answer is that it leaves us with moa. An elite skill on an even longer cooldown that has close to no use other than to counter other transformation elites. An elite skill that by taking it forces us to lose either massive offensive utility or massive defensive utility. A skill that does literally nothing in an entire match other than counter someone else’s slightly shorter cd but far more dangerous elite is, if anything, underpowered, not overpowered.

CobraPolo.1723:

Fay.2357:

Glamour builds have been obsolete for a long time though. Regardless of what you could do with them now and then, they’ve been objectively worse than other builds in every single style of play since the nerf.

I don’t play glamour builds but I’ll have to disagree with this. Viable or not this game is to be played whie have fun; its a game. If he/she chooses to play glamour builds because its fun for him/her there should be no reason to say he shouldn’t be playing it because its not viable. My build in no way is viable. But it works for me.

I think you didn’t read what I said.

You’re saying that you can still have fun with them.

I’m saying that they’re bad, and all other builds are a better choice, perform more effectively, and do more.

These are not mutually exclusive statements.

messiah.1908:

does the mesmer is the only one how can proc slow consistently ?
wih the gm trait which proc every 3rd crit 2 sec slow it can be perma slow
isnt it?
if so isnt it too op?

Maybe if you’re in a super glassy build that’s doing nothing but spam GS auto and your opponent has zero condition removal and decides to let you spam GS auto.

If that’s the case, they deserve to be permanently slowed.

conEFE.8957:

i’ll go for zerker now Thank you all

As a note, I strongly recommend against buying the gear from WvW vendors. It is un-salvageable, and that means that any upgrades you put into them are gone forever. You can get gear cheaply by running dungeons, or just buy it from the TP.

This is seriously flawed logic.

Menaka.5092:

By the numbers, we are losing way more defensive stats than offensive stats. You can’t possibly argue with that.

Sure, but everybody is losing these defensive stats, so…

Menaka.5092:

it’ll take more time to kill people, and that means you’ll need even more tank to survive for longer periods of time.

So….it means that the people you’re killing will have significantly less defensive stats too. It means that you can make a choice. Option 1 is to keep your gear as is, and kill people even faster than you do now, and option 2 is to make your gear tankier to maintain your defense and kill people about the same speed as you do now.

Menaka.5092:

Without changing anything else (for example: we don’t know if the new borderlands will manage to split the blobs and we have no clue about how the other specialization will possibly change the meta), this single change will make life harder for small, organized groups, taking on blobs.

No, it won’t change anything at all with regards to group balance. The only thing changing is that you won’t have to go farm guards to get your stacks up before being at the same level as anyone else. With no changes except losing guard stacks, you’ll kill people faster than before, and you’ll be killed faster than before. If you make your gear tankier, you’ll be about the same defense as before and you’ll kill people about the same speed as before.

Neptune.2570:

S3 is great, once you learn it’s knack. You can cancel cast the clone animation allowing an instant swap/instant immob, it takes a bit of practice, but is far more reliable and cuts off a 1/4-1/2 second casting.

Sorry, but this is untrue. When they made the changes to iLeap, I decided to test out whether sheathe-canceling it would increase the speed at which I could leap. I tested it extremely extensively with various tools allowing for perfect precision of timing, and got absolutely no gain out of it. The very fastest swap was achieved by simply mashing 3.

Menaka.5092:

Fay.2357:

The thought is that 2 people will run PU, since mass invis has a target cap of 10, allowing just 2 people to stealth the entire zerg.

unless they’ll change something, the stealth application is random, so you’ll likely end up with some people with 10s stealth and some people without any stealth at all

Priority is generally based first on party and then on proximity. Doing a quick split into two nearby groups for the MI cast should solve that problem.

keenlam.4753:

Hey Pyro, I’m interested in joining this, I could run some support build.

I’m thinking of the synergy between PU and Illusionary Inspiration for boonshare before engage.

Just wondering if F5 works without any illusion out (since IP is basline) so that PU mes can double cast MI for a total 20s of stealth (before engage, out of combat) and with so many boons gained, it might be nice to share them out to the group before the big clash.

Well, everyone will have a mixture of support and offense, though some will be more support and some more offense.

The thought is that 2 people will run PU, since mass invis has a target cap of 10, allowing just 2 people to stealth the entire zerg. If we want to do something wonky like the permastealth mentioned earlier, could certainly switch to more people running PU/MI.

While sharing the PU boons could be nifty, I don’t know if it’ll be worth taking the signet on your bar just for that. We’ll need some support folks clearing condies and particularly providing stab though, at least 1 per group in that stab role.

So PvP doesn’t require you to get normal gear, so you don’t have to worry about that. WvW, on the other hand, does.

For PvE, your main set will be sw/sw + sw/focus (you only need 1 mainhand sword for this). Either zerker or assassin’s gear is fine, they’re both almost identical as far as the ultimate damage output goes. To get more specifics on PvE though, you’ll want to look at the stickied dungeon guide.

Are you intending on doing WvW too?

mikeew.8607:

Not sure I follow your logic there fay. If the builds are outdated then to answer my question no they are not viable. The general info is regarding the builds specifically so it thus is also outdated info.

Yeah, don’t use the builds here. For builds, go to the stickied dungeon guide. However, the general playstyle recommendations, tips, and other assorted commentary that colesy wrote is still valid.

maha.7902:

it’s all pretty outdated

Only the actual build itself is outdated, all the general info and remarks that you put into it are still very relevant.

It looks like Ares Fyra hasn’t learned much since their last video. See here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Ares-Fyra-Midnight-Purple-Madness-WvW/first#post4959242

Just to set things straight, the aoe moa was something that they stated ‘this probably won’t actually be what it does, but we decided to have some fun’.

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Take a look at the PU condie build that I have here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-A-Mesmer-Guide-to-Solo-Queue/first#post4060868

If you want to read the guide, it also includes tips and general instructions on how to play it effectively in PvP.

Maim shatter can also be used fairly effectively….but that build on metabattle is rather poorly planned out. If you want to run maim shatter, do it with this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtFpxRNcrNSpBh6ykmmSyA8gSOiyB-TJRHwAw2fIZZABnCAAPBAA

Tbh, I don’t think it matters. Any form of PU and MtD is bad in Conquest but can do well in WvW.

They’ll be bad if you try to play it the way a shatter mes is played. They take a different role and require a different strategy.

Take a look at the PU condie build that I have here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-A-Mesmer-Guide-to-Solo-Queue/first#post4060868

If you want to read the guide, it also includes tips and general instructions on how to play it effectively in PvP.

Maim shatter can also be used fairly effectively….but that build on metabattle is rather poorly planned out. If you want to run maim shatter, do it with this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtFpxRNcrNSpBh6ykmmSyA8gSOiyB-TJRHwAw2fIZZABnCAAPBAA

Means nothing except I won’t have to waste 230 points to get the buffs that everyone else has.

Carighan.6758:

Because the only way they could properly code this would be with a duration-based state. So you don’t take increased damage “on using an ability”, you’ll probably take it while using an ability. I.e. castbar. but Slow makes cast bars longer. :P

Wat.

I can think of at least 2 ways to code it that wouldn’t require this.

Method 1:

while(confusion_state == true){
ticker_value = confusion_damage
if (skill_use ==true){
instant_damage = confusion_damage
}
}

So what this would do is add the confusion damage to a nonstop ticking damage timer (which we’re pretty sure they use) when you have confusion on you, and then run a check (skill_use function) that would see if you’ve started using a skill in the last however many clock cycles you deem appropriate. This would be sorta clunky, but would work.

Method 2 would just do the same while for adding the ticking damage, but then you’d just have an interrupt call that would apply the damage instead of doing it in the while loop. A cleaner method for sure.

There’s probably more ways to do it, but I just thought of those immediately.

Honestly, I think this is one of the worst builds that has been suggested for being used in dungeons that I’ve ever seen. Please never use this.

ekarat.1085:

Can you take your own portals? I’ve never been able to.

Try following the advice we gave you earlier in this thread. Yes, you can take your own portals.

MSFone.3026:

Darn it pyro I actually watched that 30 sec vid :-/ Thought it was an add before some informative video on slow or something :P

xD

Bazzoong.7145:

10s cd becomes potentially 20s with slow, while your cds will be halved.

That’s not how slow works. That’s not how alacrity works.

The full channel of confusing images has a higher damage coefficient than blurred frenzy. The block does ok power damage and solid torment damage even in a power build.

Really, the stinker of scepter is always the autoattack. Regardless of whether you’re going power or condition, the autoattack on scepter is just abominable.

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

For open world PvE, Gs + sw/focus is far and away your best weapon set.

For what reason do you consider focus the best offhand?

Focus has swiftness, aoe control (allows you to group mobs up easily) and an aoe phantasm. Open world mob aren’t tough, you don’t need the dps output of offhand sword. What you do want is the ability to kill bunches of them at once.

For open world PvE, Gs + sw/focus is far and away your best weapon set.

For Dungeons, sw/focus + sw/sw is what you need to use. Look at the stickied ‘how to mesmer in dungeons’ thread for builds and general playing tips. If you actually try and use torch in a dungeon, you’re making an enormous mistake.

Jelle.2807:

At present the illusion counter counts every illusion a mesmer has out, even those commanded to shatter but are still running to their target which in some situation make take a while.
While the game does allow you to have more active illusions out besides those running to shatter, the illusion counter does not reflect this. Until all running illusions have shattered, it is not possibly to see how many active illusions you have out besides actually counting them on the map.

This is just very impractical and really there is no reason for the illusion counter to count illusions ordered to shatter. Please consider changing the illusion counter to more accurately portray how many active illusions a mesmer has out.

Already shattered illusions count for the purposes of compounding power/illusionary defense.

Curunen.8729:

On the subject of heals – do you wonder if Ether Feast might become a clone summoning skill, to fit in the illusion category (with mirror images, defender, disenchanter and decoy)?

They could easily just call it a clone skill because of its interaction with illusions and call it a day. I’d be a little surprised if they actually added clones to it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

As for having both uniqueness and viability. I don’t like the mentality that we aren’t viable, that is what I seek to debate. And what is viability to you?

Well, in the dungeon speedrunning groups, mesmer is taken only because of the unique little tricks we can do, not because of anything having to do with actual PvEing capabilities. Mesmer has sub-par dps in almost every single situation, and the non-portal utility we bring can be replaced by a guardian.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Leodon.1564:

While the mesmer class is still my favorite class, I don’t think Anet had a clear/well thought out idea of how to implement it from the very beginning so that it could remain viable in a variety of situations. (It was the last class to be finished/designed and I felt that it was rushed out to meet the game’s release date.)

I think Anet has been trying to bandaid the class ever since but either the lead designer does not know what to do or does not have enough clout to make the changes needed to properly “fix” the class. I think its the former as I read somewhere that Anet was disheartened to find out that there were mesmer builds in which players never used the core’s class mechanic (shattering).

Seriously, who comes up with a class mechanic where upon its use, you destroy your primary source of sustained damage (phantasms) and then wonder why people are reluctant to shatter? What did they think was going to happen?

To put this into perspective, would a Guardian want to use their Virtues if every time they used it, their DPS decreased by about 2/3rd initially and then slowly built back up to 100% after 10-20 seconds? The payoff would have to be significant in order to offset the drastic reduction in DPS. Currently for Mesmers, that offset is only achieved by the use of the F1 ability for its burst. (F3 and F4 does not offer enough of a payoff to use them on cooldown or to make builds around.)

I don’t think tying mesmer DPS to one F1 ability was a good decision by Anet. Either all of the F1-F4 abilities should do damage (in different, useful ways so that their is a choice) or they should all be utility skills, like F3 and F4 currently is. Personally, I think it should have been the latter. (F3 and F4 are class defining skills; Decoy and Blink are examples of other class defining skills that could have taken up the F1 and F2 spots.)

Where did you get the numbers for this? Also the class mechanic is the closest thing to what mesmer was in gw1. When hexes became conditions and enchantments became boons, our complex hexes had to change or else we would be stuck a condition class. So “Conjure Phantasm” became the base for our phantasm, with things like the torch phantasm meant to mimic the “backfire” skill. Our ability to remove our hexes for extra aoe damage, “shattered delusions”, became f1. Many other skills are a sideffect of energy not being in the game, as energy denial was mesmer’s chief thing.

His numbers are actually mostly accurate, just a little bit exaggerated. Phantasms comprise roughly 60% of a mesmer’s dps in dungeons, so to say shattering cuts your dps by 2/3 is fairly accurate. Taking 20 seconds to build it back up is a bit much, but I guess that could be a worst case scenario situation.