People are asking that the ghost thief play by the rules every other class including other flavours of thief play by. You attack, you can be seen for a few seconds to allow countering, this is what the conversation is about, not nerfing thief because lol thief. It’s about principles, you should never be able to stay stealthed the whole time while attacking.
If you know so much about thief and have read the stuff I wrote in this thread (although you didn’t have to cause you already knew) : Thief is build around stealth – no other class is whether or not they have access to stealth. So if the rules of other classes should apply to thief then I want to be entirely independend of stealth as well – and even DrD is better with stealth access (every weapon is better with stealth, S/, D/, P/, staff, SB).
I have only been in Dragonstand, no idea how it is for the rest of PvE, and I’m usually not monitoring the damage mobs do, so I’m not entirely sure, but it seems as if they often hit twice, eviscerate for example. I don’t think a skill like that is meant to hit twice within a second.
I main ele, I don’t play condi ele but I do at least know what every single skill and utility does, yes even earth shield which has little to no use at all for nearly every single game mode.
Good for you, so? People also complained about caltrops not having direct damage – excuse me that I confused all the arguments brought up against thieves.
The reason condi trapper thief works at all is because you cannot see it in order to counter it, if you have decent condition cleansing or just enough and good reactions to clear the immobilise and stunbreak out of the caltrops burst they put down then it’s not a problem. The runes aren’t what gives the condi trapper thief ridiculous uptime of stealth either, anyone that had even spent 5 mins with a thief and the shadow arts line would know that. The problem is there being nothing that reveals the thief when it attacks and therefor it can stay stealthed the whole time.
The runes are what make this build possible, otherwise he wouldn’t have that much access to stealth – that’s my point. It’s no use to destroy an already bottom class even further because of a rune. If anet finally come around and have a clue what to do with thief and how to shift their survival away from stealth, then I don’t object against your suggestions. But the meta is still D/P the set that has got the most access to stealth – so seems as if stealth is still needed.
Trapper runes have little to do with a Ghost thief.
The runes provide 2 seconds of stealth on a 30 second cooldown. How the heck is that OP?
If you trait for respite and mastery you can get 4 seconds stealth on a 24 second cooldown.
The issue is NOT TRAPPERS runes. It is stealth stacking via DP using BP and HS.
A much more potent ghost thief would use Hide In shadows , traps with respite and Perplexity runes. They can maintain permanent stealth with DP. They can also use Torment or Balthzar again adding conditions every 15 seconds just by healing.
Now I can make a Ghost thief work using Perpexity runes, Tormenting runes , Balthazar runes, Trapper runes but can not make it work using s/d or p/p or SB or s/p. Wh ys ithat if the issue trapper runes?
^This
Removing trapper runes doesn’t get rid of the ghost thief, it’s pointless to debate that any further. The argument now is whether or not ghost thief should be allowed to exist.
I don’t personally care either way. The only time they become a threat is when they run in groups of 3 or more and even then they are a lot less of a threat than 3 power thieves coordinating their bursts.
I don’t get why this whole game has to revolve around the “poor rangers”. Trapper thief wouldn’t exist without that rune, as simple as that. Ask any “ghost thief” about their build and they are using rune of the trapper.
That’s partly untrue – S/D has got CnD and a stun on Sword if stealthed – I said:
you can play S/D without using CnD but your thief is weaker than it has to be
S/D has stealth access, yes, but it didn’t need that stealth to function, it was just something “nice to have”. Stealth is nice to have for any class/build. Similar is true for current D/P meta build. It needs stealth for backstab, but that’s all. And backstab is by far not as important as in the past for D/P. Shadowshot, Headshot (Pulmonary Impact) and autoattacks are often better options.
And again – even builds that rely more on stealth like SA builds shouldn’t need to sit in stealth permanently. Revealed is basically nothing but a short cooldown. If you are revealed and can’t clear condis because of it, it is like having condi remove skills on cd. Same for burst, cc and so on. It is not only revealed, that destroyed many thief builds (like your d/d build). It is not even the main issue.
Should I repeat myself once again? I only did it twice so far.
Saying “class x doesn’t need their skill” is like saying “ranger can well live without rapidfire, maul and some other skill”.
And the problem is that our survival is tied to stealth and reveal skills destroy that – I already explained that, please don’t make me repeat myself over and over again. It’s not thieves fault for using stealth it’s how the class is designed and reveal just shuts down a whole traitline – the line that is our most defensive line. And not every thief sits in stealth, only D/P and trapper rune thieves can do that.
And I honestly can’t remember when I saw the last trapper thief. That was a while ago. So maybe 1% of the remaining thieves are running it, but yeah, let’s nerf thief!
So did you have the same feelings when Rangers used them?
They are already horribly nerfed since HOT came out and used in sPvP. What more do you honestly want? Oh yeah, throw them out. Personally, I agree with you since they are more or less neutered. However, once class found a use for them and of course the lag in the game isn’t helping any.
What on earth are you going on about? Caltrops aren’t traps, thought you mained thief, how do you not even know this? We are talking 2 traps to add damage to, Needle trap and Tripwire, these are usually used to set up for a condi bomb in the build so it will allow a few seconds of being able to see and attack the thief if you’re ready for it.
This isn’t about taking one for the team, ganging up on thieves or anything else. This is about actually being able to see what is killing you. Stop letting your personal feelings get in the way of what is obviously something that shouldn’t be allowed.
We already had that to excess – I’m a main thief but not a condi thief. You know next to nothing about thief, which you don’t have to but it would be cool if you’d (all of you) tried to understand where I’m coming from.
The reason why trapper thief works is the runes, removing the rune would solve the problem – so yeah remove it.
I never said, stealth is not important for many thief builds, but that doesn’t make it their main class mechanic. Even in the past not all strong thief builds were relying on stealth (old s/d for example – now daredevil has kinda replaced acro as non-stealth survival line).
That’s partly untrue – S/D has got CnD and a stun on Sword if stealthed – I said:
Condi remov, regen, burst, stun is tied to stealth – that is true for all vanilla builds. You can bypass that when going daredevil but still a lot of the mechanics only work with stealth.
The condi removal on other vanilla lines is subpar to what SA brings – the whole line that’s destroyed by reveal.
And not every thief can make tons of evades work and that’s the only other option to remove condis. Still, burst, stun and so on is tied to stealth even with daredevil. You can make stealthless builds “work” but still thief is built around stealth. And there is nothing on thief without stealth – you can play S/D without using CnD but your thief is weaker than it has to be (an example for a lot of mechanics, it’s not just S/D but every set).
Stealth is not thieves main mechanic (not all thief builds rely on stealth) and every thief should be able to handle a few seconds of revealed every now and then. And even though i wouldn’t call the “ghost thief” op, i think, being able to deal dmg while staying permanently stealth is terrible design and should be changed. And since it is an (trap) thief only issue, changes should affect only this build. Adding direct dmg to those traps and buffing them in some way (more dmg and/or utility), so a trap thief doesn’t rely on perma stealth, would be my solution.
Condi remov, regen, burst, stun is tied to stealth – that is true for all vanilla builds. You can bypass that when going daredevil but still a lot of the mechanics only work with stealth. Engi and ranger reveal are more than a few seconds and they can hit as hard as a thief and have (multiple) invulnerabilities – it was a very stupid move to bring that stuff into game.
ETA: No idea about rev reveal haven’t been hit by that for a while.
@ Puck:
I was answering to three posts, wasn’t directed to you in particular and we’ve (all) had this discussion multiple times.
The problem with all of this is: Thief is built around stealth. We’re that squishy because of our stealth. I never used traps but I can imagine it would be very bad if a genuine trapper thief (without runes of the trapper) was revealed because someone triggered his traps. The same is with reveal skills which still needs to be adressed by anet as most of thief’s mechanics are tied to stealth.
Adding direct damage to traps would further nerf a class because of some stupid runes because rangers and guardians who’s mechanics aren’t tied to stealth want to keep running it – and I think that’s wrong.
Of course other classes fully benefit of the rune and would furthermore benefit from it if thief the class was nerfed because of that rune.
If you add reveal on damage the dodge (caltrops) wouldn’t work anymore, traps wouldn’t work anymore and so on.
Is it really that bad that you guys have to take one for the team? “I want I want I want me me me me me!!”
They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.
No, they simply need to remove the rune as there’s no reason to destroy thief because of a stupid rune.
Not unless HoT is so unbalanced it can literally warp time. The GvG scene was “dead” long before HoT released.
Not on EU – most of the GvG guilds quit because of the Elites.
No idea what was going on in NA.
But do you really think a few people who complain could break up a whole sub game mode? And hey, they even got arenas with Hot – they didn’t need to be in wvw anymore.
There are some quite annoying things in WvWers behavior I’ve noticed since I started playing WvW. First it was pure, unrelenting hatred towards GvG players, which drove them out of WvW to an extent I can barely find one if I want to.
Stop your outrage, it’s the HoT “balance” that killed GvG – GvG players aren’t that fragile.
And that’s kind of the point. A person scouting, upgrading a keep or running supply is not primarily focused on killing people, duelers are.
Not really, I distinguish between scouts, roamers and duelists.
All of them are basically roamers and roamers are in to kill, whether it’s 1 vs 2 (if possible) or 2 vs 1 or x vs x. Scouts probably have a more important task at hand and don’t stop for every fight, duelists might enjoy fighting a certain enemy and they usually don’t kill if it’s a real duel.
I don’t really get where this entitlement mentality on both sides comes from.
Because of this thread … I’m almost tempted to use that last slot and play this build. I won’t cause I’ve been with anet long enough to know every time I decide late in the game to play the ‘build’ hot on topic, they stir the pot in the wrong direction (ele’s swirling winds blocking treb shots comes to mind way back, so does the confusion nerf to mesmers when my mes just hit 80 to be legit in wvw)… best not repeat my prior mistakes or I may be labelled. I still say let the rangers have there moment in the sun, been many years they were just the best ‘underwater’ combatants
Let me think – last balance patch was 1,5 months ago = you have another 2,5 months until anything might be nerfed. And they said themselves that they gave up on balancing stuff (that even before June last year), they just want to shake up the meta every 4 months. Go for Druid. And you just missed the sale for some more char slots.
deso just got spanked so hard in fights your people stopped playing, dont blame other servers for that. its the mentality to quit when losing maybe fix that instead
If bigger is always better then what do you think happened?
Vabbi was Deso’s last partner and is now ours. We’re currently saying our goodbyes as we stand no chance against the other servers. I don’t think it was thanks to the linking that deso was doing better, it’s thanks to the current linking which created mega-blob-servers that a bunch of servers just don’t stand a chance. I hope these blobservers have fun as if this stays like it is EU will soon have only 4 tiers.
This is the truth of it, though, at least in this respect.
Balance team unfortunately has the reigns on everything that actually matters and for whatever reason is too afraid to go deleting game-breaking content because people will whine, despite the current content breaking the game and causing many to just silently leave. The sPvP and WvW teams have no control over the in-game content without trying to break the thick-headed-ness of the rest of the game.
Don’t tempt me to post another QFT – I feel bad for the first one alone.
I was commander on DS today as a vanilla D/D thief with wonky BS thanks to the stealth attack cooldown – I didn’t die once and well people healed me but even that isn’t neccessary as no one is doing that in wvw as well and I never have boons from anyone.
I really have no idea why all this HoT powercreep “is needed”.
I fell from one edge while using withdraw though, but my squad just carried on circeling
“instead of actually fixing the issues from SPvP, you guys took the lazy approach and just removed them from the game mode”
As far as I understand, since the sPvP and balance teams are two different teams, the only thing the sPvP team has control over is which sigils/runes/amulets are available. Removing that rune from sPvP wasn’t done by the balance team. I wouldn’t call the sPvP team lazy, but responsive.
That said, we need the balance team to look into the issue.
Anything can be called a l2p issue when the player defending it doesn’t want to admit its imbalanced. I’m just pointing out that Thieves have been doing it a lot longer than everyone else, so nobody takes it seriously anymore.
Roll a thief and see that the stinky thieves weren’t wrong.
And if you’re hardcore try something else than D/P.
I do agree though that a lot is unbalanced and well – in the end it’s anet who need to see this and as long as they don’t seem to have a clue about their own game (balance wise) all is lost anyway.
ETA: I really trusted them when I came to the forums 2 years ago “well, those people are talking ridiculous stuff but anet won’t listen as that would completely destroy one class” – well.. yes.. and as long as anet aren’t the ones who make smart and fair descisions all this denying and “L2P” will continue.
Honestly; the only difficult thing about HoT is map completion and not because I fall to my death (oh I have a glider, nifty), but because I have to get to the bottom, swim from there to the north, climb up a hill, wait for an event to be done and run half a circle on the second level to get to the POI south.
Of course in PvP it’s not much of a problem, but in the new HoT maps you just can’t use it at all. It would be less of a problem if the roll direction was more controllable. Often your character gets ‘stuck’ for a second after using skills making you dodge in the wrong direction when you use this skill.
It is really down to practice. I don’t think I ever had any troubles in PvE (open world) and if I know what’s up in front (last boss thaumanova fractal e.g.), I’m switching my heal skill. In fact in that very fractal I’m using the most uncommon thief skills and weapons anyway: P/P and SB, Thieves Guild and Hide in Shadows (if I don’t forget that which I often do).
Once upon a time Anet was very eager that we switch skills and don’t just set them and call it a day for the rest of our time in this game. And actually, they were/are right with that.
If you’re a daredevil, which I assume (I’m not) then you don’t need that extra dodge from withdraw.
Necros usually don’t move at all – I should probably play the class for a bit to get behind that secret. Well and they don’t have all the passive blocks.
Sometimes I have no chance at all though, if they’ve got signet of plaque eqipped (I should know how to dodge it but somehow fail it every time) or if I really mess up.
D/P is another story as it should be a lot easier to kill anything with D/P. Topic was that one can do whatever one wants and still have fun. You just shouldn’t be afraid to die, especially as vanilla D/D and well, there’s no “getting better” as there’s a) no balance, b) everything is bugged and c) the lags. You can’t say “Well, I made this and that mistake, that’s why I lost” it’s all more or less random.
Just go for it.
See, even I as a vanilly D/D thief, without food, without boons with SIGNET OF SHADOWS gasp kill stuff in wvw. Is only bad if it’s bunkers but I heard that isn’t really possible in pvp right now, so with some practice you should have a good time.
And btw: Servers have been merged a while ago – there are enough people in wvw nowadays. And we have the DBL and 2 ABLs.
It’s not going to work out but we already knew. Just saying: you’ll find enough to fight.
These masses still cause lag map/serverwide though, yes, 10s to activate withdraw, 30s to activate daggerstorm.
But alas more people wvw is alive!!
You find enough small scale offhours though – I guess even on NA as there is no such thing as 24/7 coverage and hasn’t been while I was on NA.
I just don’t want to be required to take the Shortbow to gain mobility.
Then don’t – nobody is forcing you.
Hey, I want SS but don’t want to be required to play D/P. I want BP but not offhand pistol, I want aegis but not play guard, I want portals but not play mesmer.. sacrifices :P
The only ones who don’t get that everybody has to make sacrifices in order for a fair combat-model are PvE players and facerollers. Oh and anet.
Ps: And with that I’m out as I can’t guarantee to not scream and shout next time I see “But I’m a serious Pvp-er yo!”
Of course you didn’t say it, but you said you always end up with D/P as the other sets are lacking.
Want me to duel you, me on D/P, you on any other thief set?
Get where I’m coming from?
ETA : The above was probably bad english..
Anyway: This is how this game turned out: Facerolling to victory. Not sure if you’ve seen it but I already said: “I want all weaponskills on my 1” – Back in the day people had to make up for what their sets were lacking, nowadays every skill is really useful – and that’s an army of D/D cele eles. D/P is no exception, and never was, to that. That’s why all other thief sets/weapons are “dead”.
ETA²: And I hope I don’t need to explain why stuff like this is bad. D/D needs to be buffed, yes, but only because all the other stuff in game is faceroll and the traits are randomly merged. It was fine before June 23 2015. I actually don’t get why anet are doing this. They screw a good portion of their playerbase because they make only one weaponset per class playable and they lose some more by not caring about balance. But alas, I don’t have the numbers, I don’t know if catering PvE players only is luctrative.
And your idea is for “PvE-players turned PvP players” as well. So maybe it will be in game a few months from now, along with another heavy nerf which only hurts all other sets, like usual.
D/P was the only set that has been indirectly buffed since the traitmerge June 23th 2015. Maybe it was coincidence but I don’t think anet objects to buffing offhand pistol because of D/P.
I doubt they would ever drop a precursor into the mix. I’m okay with treasure atm, too much trash but it fuels enough gold for my daily things I do, and consumables and such.
It is a problem sometimes – if I’m immobilized and locked into one direction I can’t let my char roll towards me. Same with SB3 – I think it has been different back in the day and the char always moved towards the player. Until they “improved” SB3 in one patch.
Just saying: You might not want to keep the linking (EU) as it is for full 2 months as I guess around a third of players on all servers who currently don’t stand a chance against the monsterblobs you created will quit for good.
They need to take a look at that then. At the very least it should be a reasonably steady horse race to get the wall down/kill the cata to make it fair.
QFT
And range/damage done by players should also be taken into account.
The problem is: There’s so much wrong with this game mode… and the question is if any of those responsible for it have any idea how it was and how it should be like.
We get all kinds of gadgets (disabler, hammer) and additional stuff to “make up for it” and more and more goes wrong and it’s catered more and more towards bigger = better.
They barely hit that spot if you throw it right. Unless there is like 10+ staff eles, you are likely to be able to man the AC and kill the catas from that spot without even needing a shield generator. Walls with staircases are pretty much the only walls where you can place ACs because they are wide enough to Meteor Shower.
Good joke – they had that wall down in 1,5 minutes.
ETA: An AC takes 3 to 4 times as long to get an cata out. Now we also have repair hammers and like I siad; I was unable to hold it out long enough to throw a disabler, but even then we wouldn’t have any chance.
I think we’ve had an AC at the right arrow, no shield generator though – but as you can see we were ultimate outnumbered.
Still, I’m not sure I like how things are, but then again I’ve been around for that long that I can still remember times in which everything in wvw made sense.
Isn’t it without siege anyway already? Just need a few necros and eles and all walls are clear within seconds.
Screenshot: I couldn’t even throw a disabler as I had to dodge non stop.
There are a few indicators that people are duelling /bow (I mean it, duellers, do that!), they’re around SM but not attacking anything.
When I came to my server 1,5 years ago I assumed that they knew how to fight (which was true back then) and left all 1 vs 1 alone.
Nowadays it’s very rare to meet single enemies anyway. In case someone thinks that everytime he ganks a single enemy is a duel *cough and yells at me because I dared to spank, then so be it – I don’t care. If I know though it’s a duel I don’t interfere – why would I?! My buddy and I are duelling in wvw as well. Of more use for my server than if I were put into another map as I’m still there to defend our stuff.
They need to do something about duelling; I randomly run across map, see two people fighting and then I have to choose whether to help the guy from my team or keep running cause it might be a duel. If I intervene and turns out it’s a duel, then people get salty and complain. If I keep running and it turns out it’s not actually a duel and I didn’t help my teammate then I get complains again.
I know there are duel areas, but it’s really ridiculous when on battleground map you need to be careful not to ruin someone’s duel. Especially if there are zergs and some roamers running around and you hit them with siege and it turns out some of them were duelling.
So and what do you want to do? Replace all people in wvw with npcs?
I actually have “the blazing light” which is still the title that needed the most personal skill (with some exceptions) – problem is: noobs don’t know that. They also don’t know that I’ve done twice to fourth as much as required for all titles (except ultimate dominator as I’m a roamer).
I know ranks aren’t worth anything anymore thanks to EotM – I’m just sick of noobs assuming that I’m more noob than them and that would shut them up.
ETA: We could also get rid of the world linking that would solve my problem as well.
Here’s your problem: Bigger is better. If quantity is the only thing that counts everybody who hasn’t joined the blob becomes a reliability.
Question is how this is hurting the small scene. Because all your possible enemies are with the other duellers and not where you would fight them? That is a balance problem as people don’t usually run around alone anymore as they’ve got no chance against class x and y and maybe z.
or you can be the worst player with any high rank – as everything in this game is cheese. anyway, I said why I want it and I actually want it displayed in wvw.
So you pretty much acknowledge that rank means nothing in the game and still you want show that to everybody ? Sorry mate but that´s the most pitiful reason i´ve ever heard, but good luck with your feature request
Yes, because I’m sick of noobs assuming that I’m even more noob than them, like I already wrote – only purpose.
