The only place ur forced to play d/p is in high level PVP.
You can play any weaponset in PVE and you can play any weaponset in WvW. In lower tiers PvP I play S/P and in WvW I sometimes roam with S/D and staff. Unless your fighting duelists, you can usually outplay ur enemies and make ur weapon viable. If I’m fighting duellists i change my build to counter whoever im fighting anyways.
Thief isn’t the strongest class but it has a lot of freedom in its design which allows skills to outplay ur enemies. The general thief class can use a buff but it doesn’t need it.
If you wanna play thief and be good, u need to practice and be open-minded.
It sounds like a lot of people are so desperate to play their weaponset that they want to everything else to go to hell.
Every class has weapon sets that are weaker. That’s just the way it is. All the weapons will never be perfectly balanced.
It does suck when ur dueling another thief on D/P and ur stuck on another weaponset cuz its looks cooler or whatever but most thieves are bad and u can generally outplay them with weaker weaponsets.
If the thief is good, then u gotta put ur serious face on and take out the big guns.
Curious question upfront: Are you the commander from IoJ who was/is with [AUX] (I think)?
On topic: We already had all the pro’s and cons and D/P is the “best” set with unfortunately tons of stealth which it actually doesn’t really need. It’s played in “high level pvp” because the skill level of all participants is more or less the same and all other sets fade against D/P.
There’s only one set that has that easy access to “unlimited” stealth, but people don’t understand it and demand nerfs to (thief) stealth in general which hurt and will hurt every other thief but D/P.
I don’t deny that there’s unviable weaponsets for every class – but question is if that has got to be – it was different once and I don’t see why I’m not allowed to play the game on the profession and set I like. Plus anet themselves said they have got no idea where to go with thief and we try to explain that D/P really is the root of all problems thief has got. Probably like staff for druid – but alas I don’t know too much about other classes that’s why I don’t run around on the forums and demand “xy to be nerfed”. (I do know D/P and D/D though – I stay away from other discussions – most people don’t).
Edit: Grammar
Edit²: And yeah, I’m a power D/D thief – for now nearly 3 years. I have to stay away from about 2/3 of all professions in wvw – solo roamers are hard to find anyway, so maybe I could beat this or that profession if there wasn’t this pesky warrior buddy of them. But I do know that I outskill everybody I kill by miles, except maybe staff eles.
DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.
Yeah, then anet will have a problem: “You can play 9 professions in this game but one is absolutely unviable – not wanted in raids, not wanted in pvp, not wanted in wvw”. They nerfed thief that mindlessly that they basically destroyed it – it’s only saved by D/P but anet don’t seem to know why. And we’re here to explain it.
Well its not unviable in pvp if the team plays around it it is the best plus one class u can have due to mobilty. The only problem is that most teams dont understand how to play with a Theif and they overcomit to a point instead of spliting.
My point is that i dont want all classes to be the same and have the same mechanics and be able fight in one vs ones with all other classes if anet make plus one a needed role Theif will be in a beter spot.
Reread…
“if we destroy D/P..”
“..then”
“but it’s not unviable”
– yeah not yet.
And regardless, if they nerf D/P that i still find the absolute best and only viable set in spvp if we ever want to get back into competitive environment nerfing D/P would make us never get back to it, theres no buff in the world on any other wepset of thief that would make us return unless you break thief and make it broken af.
And i’m still only talking in competitive ESL/WTS environment OK?
It’s thief with training wheels – has always been, will always be. I think it’s better if it’s used like you used it in (at least on – didn’t watch more) of the videos you uploaded recently – to reposition and not for 12+s of stealth and that’s what’s this thread is about.
I don’t care about pvp, sorry. Only thief I was halfway interested in was Sizer. Only set I play is D/D which is completely unviable since at least June last year – so yeah..
That’s great, sinderer – still thief as a class is nerfed and nerfed because of D/P – it doesn’t matter whether or not it’s an issue in pvp – get my point now?
DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.
Yeah, then anet will have a problem: “You can play 9 professions in this game but one is absolutely unviable – not wanted in raids, not wanted in pvp, not wanted in wvw”. They nerfed thief that mindlessly that they basically destroyed it – it’s only saved by D/P but anet don’t seem to know why. And we’re here to explain it.
I’ve already played everything in the meta SPVP (S/D, S/P and D/P, some staff too), now let me ask you something – do you play competitive SPVP?
Also blaqfyre theres no revert of nerfs of S/D that would ever bring it back into meta competitive spvp, im talking about ESL/WTS
Wow – ok. I don’t so?
If I did I’d know that I can only survive if being invisible and that I need to be stealthed at all costs?
You can do that without D/P actually and it wouldn’t hurt you if you were able to defend yourself without having to run away from every fight – think outside of your box maybe?
Nerfing DP is not the soulotion if it was why cant u just put on you dagers and play exactly as the good old day:P its the other classes bufs thats forced Theif to use DP.
It is and I just explained why. If you disagree then explain what the solution would be.
We get all nerfs because of D/P which can handle them a lot better than any other set anyway – so every other set is punished twice. And people still don’t get that the extended stealth is only possible with D/P and call for more and more nerfs which the devs copy and paste from the forums.
Just tried it in PvE where I don’t run SA – one smoke field, 4 leaps – 12 s of stealth, at 10 initative after the stealth had run out. I guess I’d be full with SA and SRej – so I can stealth at will and be stealthed for as long as if I had used SR – and do it again right afterwards and get all benefits SA brings for the duration of stealth. No other thief set can do that but we’re punished all the same with stealth attack ICD, with being squishy and with forced reveal people call for because all they see is D/P (which is the last set that is played anyway). If your only way to survive PvP is extended stealth and you actually want to keep it that way, then I don’t know. I have more fun fighting actually.
PvP might be a different mode but the rules still apply more or less the same and 2 years ago I had fun keeping 4 guys on point as a stinky D/D thief (who already was nerfed in PvP).
I don’t get the mindset that you guys want to keep it that way – it’s not neccessarily about my fun, it’s about fairness and D/P is unfair.
Just 1 thing dropping any utils that are meta for something so bad as refugee/smoke screen just lol, please no just no.
and 2nd thing as i already understand this issue just exists in wvw where you guys are bothered about it then split stealth if u want it nerfed, it is not unbalanced or broken in spvp on higher levels where the balancing should be done rather than destroy a class.
One question: did you ever play any other set than D/P?
Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.
That is our point. That’s why we “demand our own profession to be nerfed”. While thief suffered as a whole in June last year the only set that has been indirectly buffed was D/P. The current stealth cap is at 18s if I’m not mistaken (didn’t try it for a while) – and it shouldn’t be too hard to equip SR and/or smokescreen for the extra stealth that would be needed for pvp.
ETA: I’m actually in favour of nerfing the duration of pistol 5. Only real downside would be no safe stomps.
ETA²: My idea wouldn’t work as the thief would have enough initative left to stealth right afterwards.
Thinking some more about it.
Does the deflector shadow-step to the thief? Or does the thief shadow-step into himself? In case of the latter, what happens if a thief shadow-steps into themselves? They have to disappear and then re-appear inside themselves… But since the place they shadow-stepped from is gone, where do they shadow-step to?
It’s still a buff and I actually use dancing dagger now.
The problem still is that at least D/D is a pure melee set and can’t survive melee.
But that’s stuff we’ve went through for ages and anet still thinks that MOAR DAMAGE is the answer.
In the end: Nothing will change, neither in wvw nor for thief. So either live with it or leave the game – they won’t listen and actually they shouldn’t it’s them who should set the rules, not the players.
What anet needs: A clue about their own game – as long as they lack that nothing will really change (for the better).
The near perfect balance we’ve had ~2 year ago was coincidence.
You want to point fingers? point them at those that create the mess and are paid to balance and create the game. The entire meta was a mess for both PvE and WvW, PvE got lazy and relied to heavily on it just as WvW did.
QFT
Trying to avoid PvE (players) entirely because the players think everything is that complicated. Has always kind of been the case but shortly before June 2015 players knew what combos were and how to use them. Now everything feels dumbed down.
I hardly see anyone use Heartseeker other than stack stealth. Your “that finisher is useful for a lot of other combo fields” argument is silly because of that. Besides, you have Bound for all your leap finisher needs.
Sure, the ICD on stealth aplication would be the best, but you cannot suggest hard to implement things because you can be sure they will never happen.
To be honest, thief should just be totally reworked so stealth can be reworked too.
So, because you don’t see anyone using a leap finisher you assume that a profession doesn’t need it. That sounds really profound and smart.
Other than that: Guys, play thief and then complain about those pesky thief mains who have got no clue about thief.
Meh dependency on tags….
Not every tag is a good tag and you can add the good tags to your FL to see when and where they are. Otherwise “Any squad anywhere?” at off times in teamchat shouldn’t be that annoying.
Your weapon in zerg/blob fights would be SB.
What it brings: Blasts, poison fields – both spammable. Blasts are great if you know the water-ele and/or commander and you know when there will be fields. Poison is nice: 33 less heal, interrupting the downed, visible aoe field to pressure the enemy zerg, warrior banner doesn’t work in poison.
To pull that off you have to know your thief inside and out – you have to react before anything happens and that is the hard part. I’m currently failing with this, no idea why, maybe it really is the blobs. I can pull thief off easily for zergs/blobs up to 50, over that it becomes really painful. But maybe that’s true for everybody.
I can only play thief as that’s the only class I like but I can hop on any other class and am probably twice as effective than any random on it, because I have to be that observant as a thief that everything else is a breeze. And yes, I’m also more effective on any other class, I know that.
Yea catas are probably not the best thing to manually forge because even basic catas are so expensive regardless of badge or tp. Buying regular siege with badges is probably bad because of Badges of Tribute conversion.
But what if you buy those cheap flame ram or ballista blueprints off the tp and change them to superior ones?
I already took that as my example but have been called wrong, so I guess Cerby just wants to believe that this QoL change is all bad and a complete hoax.
ETA: Because the siege you buy off the TP just produces itself, no one has got to do anything for it, right? (at some points there might be too many proofs of heroics, yes).
TL:DR: its cheaper to buy superior siege off the Tp than it is to create them. Also factor in that you are wasting time. Also factor in you are wasting spirit shards that could instead be used to create a ton of lodestones and sell at a huge profit on the TP.
It’s still “cheaper” to craft them although their price has fallen a lot (from ~28 to 15/16s) buying everything off TP is at around 13,5 silver (depending rams, didn’t look up the prices of other blueprints).
Lodestones are crafted with stuff bought with Laurels, not Spirit Shards. You can make T6 mats out of T5 with Spirit Shards though, yes.
TL;DR: You’re wrong
And yes, this is a nice QoL change, even though it might not make much sense to craft siege anymore right now. But times may change.
Yay, I can play on my main all night long Thanks for that.
But while we’re at it: I bought the permanent scare crow finisher last year and as a result can’t use the limited use finishers, which kind of makes sense, or not, as I have to type in their amount and name to get rid of them. Could you please change that – I really hate having to type in the name of stuff I want to delete, especially for stuff that’s “useless” anyway (makes sense for legendaries e.g.).
Lets get one thing straight, Anet will never remove downstate from WvW no matter how popular the movement gets to remove it from WvW gameplay.
What they will end up doing, based on most recent statements from the devs, is they will look to nerfing downstate in various ways.
1. the amount of starting health may be reduced in downstate
2. the amount of +health healing per tick on a rez may be reduced
3. Invul state may be reduced or eliminated
It looks like they are currently testing out the third in spvp, and my end up implimenting it into wvw later.
The interesting part: No reasons were given why downed state should be removed in wvw. And still wvw is a bit different from pvp.
I never created a human female thief because I dislike how they move and because I thought I would never be able to “realize” my idea of a cool female human thief. I think she’s pretty cool. But unfortunately her purpose became obsolete because of me running with signet of shadows, being a D/D thief and because of the forums. So, maybe I’ll adopt her on my main.
I think, like usual, adress the root of the problem and not dumb the game down. If a group of 5 plays against 10 they should be allowed to rally off dead players and they also should be allowed to be rezzed. Now overtuned downed abilities, like necro drain life, like rangers being rezzed by their pet, the damage downed players hit out in general is something that could and should be adressed, other than that downed state is fine in my book.
Guy must play a thief in a group of thief roamers.
They can burst on or two enemies to the ground, but cant finish them :P
I’m a thief myself (I’m Josteinn, btw).
Stomping is pretty hard, yes, but 1111 still works fine. And that’s not a problem of downed state but balance/damage in general.
“No decent xy would use…” the thieves that are dangerous are D/P + staff daredevils – they can live without stealth/SA. Those who need stealth aren’t currently dangerous to anyone, what if this turns?
We’ve discussed this tons of times. Thief is built around stealth, some sets can go without it but still every set has got stealth attacks and still the profession is that squishy because they can stealth.
Thus it was rather stupid to bring reveal skills into the game and they need to redesign thief if they want to keep stealth for other classes and reveal skills.
But, since we know anet, we know this will stay in game and we’ll get a few nerfs on top of that.
I’m trying to solo a camp, party comes in. *party invite, *decline. In say chat: “Sorry guys, solo roaming.”. Running towards a tower, capping tower *squadinvite *decline. In say chat: “Sorry, solo roamer”. Running from tower being caught up in ganking in front of SM *partyinvite *decline. In map chat: “No offense but I don’t want to be in any of your parties!!!” *squadinvite
Roaming is pretty much dead though, thanks to June 23th 2015 and HoT.
I think it’s good that they’re taking baby steps at a time. Drastic changes to classes just causes everything to be very out of balance. While I would have liked to have seen more buffing of underpowered sets, it gives me hope that they are able to recognize areas they need to improve. So I get why they’re taking small steps. They don’t want to go too far and cause imbalance then (try) to fix it later with more drastic changes.
True, but they didn’t touch any traits, they’re just tinkering around with weapon skills and cooldowns. And it’s another 4 months until anything might happen. And the game is out of control for now 1,5 years.
I’d agree with you if the next patch were up in a month. I’m getting a bit impatient here.. oh no wait – I gave up
The have always been a drag in PvE and still are .
News to me, but ok.
@OP: D/D in PvE (every other set is subpar in PvE – but it depends on the situation)
Nowhere else – classes have got too many passive and active blocks, it’s rare that you can land your CnD. In PvP it’s even worse due to the lower damage, so you’re high risk “no reward” there.
And, except for 1 shot builds, D/D has always been the hardest to pull off anyway.
ETA: Condi D/D works in wvw – I always forget condi D/D… but it’s a completely different playstyle and probably not what you had in mind.
No offense, but also irrelevant. An interesting point, definitely, but irrelevant to the discussion. You should make a thread about it and then we can discuss that there.
Not irrelevant as being red is harder than being another colour and back the the day the point earning difference made up for it. It doesn’t anymore. Being red/green/blue though is still coupled to battlepoints and that system is obviously failing. Even if you would randomly distribute colours the system is messed up.
I really don’t want to get this thread locked down because some mod deems it to have gone offtopic as I’d really like anet to consider something like my proposal, so can we maybe stick to discussing the main point? Thanks
The problem with you guys on the forums and anet is that you think that working on the symptoms is fixing anything. It isn’t – wvw is dying, the more anet tries to fix the symptoms the faster that game mode goes down.
And know what: I just let it – I’m the one standing on top of every hill watching everything around me burn – I don’t care anymore.
Just remember what I said for now over a year: I told you so
As everything I have predicted came true.
Btw: Just report me – a mod will delete and infract everything I wrote and eventually I’ll be blocked. And I didn’t go offtopic, I tried to explain to you why your simple solution wouldn’t work – but you didn’t want to listen. Alas.
How is it more complicated to simply randomise the allocation of dbls, or to have a set rotation, than it is to start implementing changes to server populations and getting rid of the tier locking you mentioned previously? All I am suggesting is that the dbls are not set to be given to the red server but randomised/etc and I highly doubt it’s a more complicated procedure than solving the population issue.
The 3 corners on EB aren’t the same. I’d say green and blue are easier to defend than red. There you already have an advantage/disadvantage. The strongest server would usually get green but green gets less points for what they’re doing than red. Don’t know if you have been around when GH fought to not rank down which was out of our hands because the servers in other tiers were going to bypass us because of the red-blue-green PPT earning difference. We had to have ~500 PPT 24/7 as we were green. We were mayor bullies that week.
Now you have: biggest server is green and gets the DBL. They’ve got 2 blobs, one for EB, one for the BLs – so they will pressure the ABLs while 10 of them stay on the DBL to defend. The morale of the lower populated server will go down regardless.
The issue is more complex than just switching colours. And yes, it would be a nice change but in the end it wouldn’t change a thing, because of the reasons listed above.
Edit: spelling
ETA: I have no idea if the battlepoints system finally replaced the glicko or if it’s still buggy and how it’s supposed to work anyway. So, no idea if the “green earns less” still applies.
ETA² : Probably not if you look at deso’s history: http://mos.millenium.org/servers/history/15
(I mean at least we’ve been on 15 for eternity)
So maybe another problem is that the battlepoints thingy isn’t working out. Maybe they shouldn’t have changed links and glicko/battlepoints at the same time.
I’ll repeat myself once again and say that I did not make this thread in order to save GH or to balance the population. I made this thread because the concept of the losing server being punished every week by being given the dbls is ridiculous. Nothing more.
Edit: I agree with you about the tier locking policy, but it’s not really the point of this thread.
Changing red is a bit more complicated than that – in fact the whole issue is a bit more complicated than that – but ok, I accept that you don’t want to hear about it – you’d rather expect a magical change that won’t happen.
ETA: Like jayne already said and I believe her: If you have enough people defending DBL is easier. The bigger your server the more likely you find a handful who are interested in doing so – so the bigger server would in fact have an advantage when having the DBL.
There is no smaller server than GH. So best would be if either everybody had the DBL or no one.
And now the Poll-Believer will punch me again with their “but the people wanted this” it was the “do you want DBL or DBL” poll that made me quit polls.
But anyway: Not being red wouldn’t change a thing – sorry. It would just slow down the dying process by a margin.
I disagree. I think that if we changed how the dbls are assigned (i.e. make it random, or just have a set rotation so that it’s always red, blue, green or whatever) then it would already make WvW more bearable. Of course it wouldn’t counteract GH dying, [..]
So you agree with me, ok
ETA: No matter what you do, if anet keeps their Tier locking police up – that was it – GH is dead. We were a bunch of weirdos without commanders even before, now there’s 2? 3? guilds left. We have no chance to ever get our hopes up.
Maybe that’s why they deleted T6, because RoF was in the same position and if they delete T5 some other servers will be dying as a consequence and so on and so on – it will never stop.
