Guild Wars 2

If you land aetherblade boss fractal and you’re pugging on warrior, you can just stay at Max range and block every single one of mai trin’s teleport shots. It may not sound like much but it really significantly lowers her damage and stops her from running around so much. I’d say it’s enough to make up for the DPS loss if your team kind of sucks.

Travis the Terrible.4739:

Jzaku.9765:

What ^he said. It’ll take us hitting rock bottom in PvP again to stop all this whining entirely.

Basically eles now know what warriors felt like a year and a half ago.

Yep, and history tends to repeat itself so it’s inevitably going to happen what with literally everything about warr suddenly being op to the forum. Although at the rate anet is going at that point in time we’re probably one-shotting each other with our instant cast 100b tier damage.

What ^he said. It’ll take us hitting rock bottom in PvP again to stop all this whining entirely.

10/goddang 10

You deserve a medal for this.

Because the dredge use the exact same skill and I cannot imagine the suffering we would have to endure if THOSE stopped being reflectable.

They said in the blog post that it makes Longbow Projectiles fire at twice the speed. If anything that’s massive-buff-tier rather than a fix considering it turns a relatively telegraphed weapon into another too fast to dodge anything weapon.

Sampo.9678:

Renewed Focus and Shelter going into their full cooldown when interrupted exists for quite some time now.. Pretty annoying indeed

If they didn’t you’d be able to get ~40% invulnerability uptime with Renewed Focus alone by canceling the channel near the end, waiting out the “interrupted” ~5s cooldown, then repeating. You’d get 100% block/invuln duration with both shelter and renewed focus. It’s intended, the effects of the skill happen the moment you start channeling it, thus it goes on full cooldown.

Balance entirely aside, the combat in this game is the most fun, fluid and responsive I’ve ever seen from an MMO.

eleshazar.6902:

Jzaku.9765:

eleshazar.6902:

Yeah I don’t think you get the meaning of sacrifice….

Those guards that go bunker. You should see their damage numbers some time. I’ve tried that build. You crit for 800. No not 8k, 800. A warrior can’t even see that low of a number even if they went all sentinel’s with no attributes in power/crit/or condi.

It isn’t about giving up a util slot or two, or maybe giving up 1k damage. It is about the fact that every other class that goes tanky cannot reliably dps when they do. You can still deal 4k crits as a warrior when you are tanky as all heck. THAT IS THE PROBLEM!

I took the time to prove you wrong because you really disgust me with your hyperbole.
“But if you compare [build that is clearly meant to kill people] with [build that is clearly NOT meant to kill people] they do so much more damage!”

Except if a warrior was traited exactly the same way as a bunker guardian its pretty much the same damage. However much you want to delude yourself into thinking your average bruiser warrior build is just as tanky as a bunker guardian it still remains, factually, completely false.

You do realize that attaching some random combat sample from hitting a heavy golem in pvp means nothing right…

A) We have no clue what you were wearing (if anything at all) besides your word.
B) Damage scales differently in PvP than PvE/WvW
C) We have no clue if you put on any traits, or what they were in
D) Did you use all of your massive damage boosting skills? Sig of Rage, FGJ, Banners, etc?

What we can tell from your graph tells us that you only auto attacked…. Where was the glorious HB or are you afraid of what those numbers might have looked like?

Where was the condi damage from the sword, or again afraid of what that might look like?

And of course no one here is arguing that the auto attack on Warriors is OP we are arguing all damage in general is. So having your auto attack hit on hammer for 1k just proves my point…. When I referenced 800 crit on guard I’m talking the max using whirling wrath.

Simply showing some numbers associated with Warrior skills really tells no one anything without context. The only thing we know is that you equipped different weps, which ironically in PvP doesn’t mean that you even had any stats on yourself.

You are so biased it makes me want to laugh…. Sad thing is you may honestly believe in what you are saying.

You do realise this information is available to anyone with HALF a modicum of effort. I’m fairly sure the only person backwards enough to believe anyone would falsify damage comparison screen shots would be you. And I find it hilarious that your post is the one that’s chock full of anecdotal “evidence” while you try to call me out on falsifying information. it really is disgusting. This is not even TOUCHING on how you continue to insist on comparing what is clearly two completely different builds with different purposes on one dimension, damage.

eleshazar.6902:

Yeah I don’t think you get the meaning of sacrifice….

Those guards that go bunker. You should see their damage numbers some time. I’ve tried that build. You crit for 800. No not 8k, 800. A warrior can’t even see that low of a number even if they went all sentinel’s with no attributes in power/crit/or condi.

It isn’t about giving up a util slot or two, or maybe giving up 1k damage. It is about the fact that every other class that goes tanky cannot reliably dps when they do. You can still deal 4k crits as a warrior when you are tanky as all heck. THAT IS THE PROBLEM!

I took the time to prove you wrong because you really disgust me with your hyperbole.
“But if you compare [build that is clearly meant to kill people] with [build that is clearly NOT meant to kill people] they do so much more damage!”

Except if a warrior was traited exactly the same way as a bunker guardian its pretty much the same damage. However much you want to delude yourself into thinking your average bruiser warrior build is just as tanky as a bunker guardian it still remains, factually, completely false.

Well, if you are arguing the effectiveness of having a Warrior taking the place of a Guardian, yes, all these things would matter. As primary bunker you have to be reliable, provide support, and most importantly keep the point. If you were cc-able during your “invulnerability” rotation you might be feared/launched off the point and be quickly neutralized.

There’s also no way a Warrior can fill a Guardian’s shoes, being a Bunker is not JUST about staying alive on a point, Guardians place reflect fields, provide stability to the team for teamfights and guaranteed stomps, are able to neutralize the point with knockbacks and denial over time. I’m not saying a warrior can’t hold a point to save his life, but there is a perfectly legitimate reason why Guardian is the apex predator of bunkering.

EDIT: How do I into reading comprehension edition
We agree that Guard is the best, but I think you’re significantly overstating the capability of the standard Warrior bruiser build.

Personally I feel that people don’t refuse to use Axe OH because it doesn’t do enough damage. It’s because it has 0 utility. Compare it to Mace (knockdown), Shield (stun, block), Warhorn (party buffs, condition cleansing if traited)

Meanwhile if you were to describe Axe OH it’d be (bad damage). Not because aoe damage is bad (see: Arcing Arrow, Cluster Bomb) it’s because it does it over a painfully long period of time for “flavour” when the near instant nuke is obviously better.

Tldr give axe OH some utility
Like reflecting projectiles or evade or something.

Black Box.9312:

Invulnerability? No. Damage mitigation? Maybe more PARTIAL damage mitigation in the form of protection and the occasional aegis, but unlike warrior guardian’s only duration-based block skill is also their heal skill, and it only lasts 2 seconds.

Considering Warrior has nothing that actually grants invulnerability the way say, Renewed Focus, and the only way you can achieve something comparable would be to use up all 3 of your utility slots at once on Endure Pain, Berserker’s Stance, and a form of stability, and existing conditions will still continue to tick on you in this scenario as opposed to true invulnerability, I’d say yes, Guardian definitely has more invulnerability. Having your block attached to your Heal can be seen as a positive as well, you have free choice of weapons to use.

I agree that Guardian definitely has always been in a good place in all areas of the game. Wouldn’t that be exactly the reason why Anet is so reluctant to change it? I’d fear that Guardian would turn into the next OP/UP flavour of the month if they did.

First of all no, Guardian has way more invulnerability and damage mitigation than Warr what are you even smoking here. All classes have ~equal amount of stunbreaks. And hilariously, I’d say damage guardian is one of the best counters to Hammer Warrior.

The guardian still does what it does the best. You STILL don’t see Warriors or any other class being your main bunker, this is because yes, a warrior sustains himself well (some might say too well), but all his sustain only applies to himself. This is in direct contrast to what a Guardian provides for a team with his team cleansing, team stability, team full heal etc etc. This is completely by design that Guard defends the team and the only team effects warrior can apply are all damage buffs.

If you feel like the guardian needs things other classes have to suit your play style perhaps you should play other classes.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Totally agreed with this

Other classess make decisions to go either damage focused build or either tanky focused build. Which means if u go dps u gotta give up on defensive stats and if u go tanky build u gotta give up on offensive stats.. but look at Warriors? they can be tanky as hell while doing extremely high damage output without SACRIFICING any offensive nor defensive stats + DONT FORGET THEIR mobility as well.

“Btw Warriors can be beaten by well players” I agree with this. BUT Warriors have huge advantage having high mobility high damage/high bunkering stats which means you can beat them if u are a “good player” that knows what to do. Which tells u that even noob warriors can outplay other classess without requiring skills, but other players on different professions need certain amount of knowledge/understanding of that professions and skills to beat Warriors which is just unfair? and think about it which class will have advantage, if the player have the equal skills/control and understanding of the profession plays warrior or any other classess? its a fact that if the controller/player has the equal knowledge and skills, result will be determined by the profession’s items/stats. and right now which class got the highest hp/toughness/mobility while doing massive damage and tanks like truck? WARRIORS?

u are saying this is not OP?

Right, because going 20 into Defense traitline for Cleansing Ire, 30 if using Hammer, and taking a minimum of 2 Stances, which are clearly defensive utilities, is not sacrificing any offensive ability at all.

I would just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that there was a time when Ele was considered top tier and warriors were rock bottom. HP and Armour mean absolutely nothing. Warrior passive healing and cleansing could take a hit or two, but by no means are they earth-shakingly fundamentally OP by design.

Tulki.1458:

Jzaku.9765:

Tulki.1458:

All you’re doing is adding channel times to most of the engineer’s abilities to prevent the class from being mobile at all.

I hate to be “that guy”, but these ideas really are horrible. If part of the reason is that you hate dealing with things like spammy grenade kits, maybe you should try being more mobile. While it’s true that grenades are extremely powerful, that only applies to stationary targets. They fly slowly to their destination. The same thing applies to the flamethrower’s fireball, and many other abilities. Those don’t need charge times. The opponent just needs to learn how to dodge.

The entire grenade skill shot argument falls flat on its face when you consider that you can unload the whole kit right under your feet in what is basically a full aoe cleave. OP has addressed this by adding a minimum range. And what exactly are you dodging when dealing with grenades? The very fact that you refer to it as “sustained damage” is already very telling. That’s the problem that OP is trying to address here. Sustained damage is not good for the game when it is the entire point of a build – it makes dodging meaningless when there is no telegraphed burst to dodge. See: Condi vs burst meta arguments.

Your counter-argument falls flat on its face when you realize every class has a ranged weapon. Ironically, grenades are weaker the further away they’re cast. If someone is deciding not to exploit their slow projectile speed, then that’s their problem.

Also, every skill in this game can be spammed at point-blank range. Thieves can cast and detonate explosive arrows in melee range for massive bleeding, and they can do so even better since they balance initiative rather than cooldowns. Warriors can detonate their explosive shot immediately by launching it at their feet. Why you decided to target one specific profession is baffling.

Oh, and there’s also something called “projectile reflection”. If a grenade engineer is giving you no room to breathe, then your reflects will give him no room to breathe either. I’ve killed engineers this way many, many times.

I… What. We agree that grenades are weakest when far away. That’s why the most effective use is at point blank, that’s why people use it at point blank, that’s why the kit is spammy, that’s what op is trying to address. You can’t “exploit grenade’s slow projectile” if people don’t even use it as projectiles in the first place.

Also if you even bothered reading his other threads all with the same naming and numbering scheme you’ll see that he added minimum range to the other similar skills You mentioned as well.

Tulki.1458:

All you’re doing is adding channel times to most of the engineer’s abilities to prevent the class from being mobile at all.

I hate to be “that guy”, but these ideas really are horrible. If part of the reason is that you hate dealing with things like spammy grenade kits, maybe you should try being more mobile. While it’s true that grenades are extremely powerful, that only applies to stationary targets. They fly slowly to their destination. The same thing applies to the flamethrower’s fireball, and many other abilities. Those don’t need charge times. The opponent just needs to learn how to dodge.

The entire grenade skill shot argument falls flat on its face when you consider that you can unload the whole kit right under your feet in what is basically a full aoe cleave. OP has addressed this by adding a minimum range. And what exactly are you dodging when dealing with grenades? The very fact that you refer to it as “sustained damage” is already very telling. That’s the problem that OP is trying to address here. Sustained damage is not good for the game when it is the entire point of a build – it makes dodging meaningless when there is no telegraphed burst to dodge. See: Condi vs burst meta arguments.

You can dodge a time-limited Eviscerate or Pistol Whip with your limited Endurance.

Have fun dodging a spirit ranger’s autoattacks just completely wrecking you.

That’s the problem with conditions. I agree with you however that both condition application and cleansing has to be nerfed. Unfortunately it looks like Anet plans to carry on buffing cleansing to compensate for the crazy condition application in the game right now.

I sincerely hope you are aware that Warr is not the only class with an AoE res. It just happens to be the most obvious-looking one because it’s an elite skill.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewal_of_Earth
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Undeath

bethekey.8314:

For the sake of time and tempers, I will leave it at this: If you believe that these nerfs (you do not fix something that is not broken) are good, you are very much out of your depth here.

I’m glad we could come to an understanding here. I too feel exactly like you do, “you’re bad and you’re wrong”. If you feel like adding telegraphs to every class is an earthshaking nerf then I too have nothing to say to you.

bethekey.8314:

Jzaku.9765

Wow, a reasonable engineer. That’s a first. I’m impressed and fully support you OP.

Thank you for this perfect example. Anytime someone (experience and skill not even known) calls for a self-nerf they are automatically assumed to be so sagacious and honest. Sometimes this is true. In this case it is not. It only serves to draw those who have long been searching for justification that X class is overpowered and discredits both people in the process.

Wow, that’s some presumptuous condescension right there. The reason I support op is not because I’m under some false delusion that “wanting to nerf yourself makes you a sage”, it is because op touches on many of the things wrong with this game in his so called “nerfs”. Attaching incendiary powder to clearly telegraphed existing moves to make it avoidable instead of being the undodgeable random proc it is now, making (only a part of) healing turret risky and interruptable like most other heals in the game, giving grenades a telegraph and delay in melee range because the entire grenade skill shot argument absolutely fails when you can unload everything instantly when you are defending a point on your opponent.

These are not “nerfs” and nowhere in my post I stated that I think they are good changes because they are nerfs to a class I find op. I find that these are good FIXES to the way engineer works currently and that the large majority of engineers, like every other class, is vehemently opposed to changes like these because they 1-dimensionally only see these changes as straight nerfs.

Wow, a reasonable engineer. That’s a first. I’m impressed and fully support you OP.

Nope! More of the same crap with Scarlet being fantastically amazing at everything while wanting to kill everyone – I thought they’d learned that this wore out it’s welcome months and months ago, but judging from that trailer we’re still going to have to foil her plans as she laughs at us for playing her puppet. Again. For the tenth time.

I agree with topic creator here. I find this blind hatred for the “OP class” frankly ridiculous, it is a specific combination of things that make it strong, and power sword is not one of those things. More warriors running sword is less warriors running hambow, for example.

Not likely. They just released the permanent royal terrace pass that teleports you there, don’t expect a free teleport anytime soon.

JonPeters.5630:

Very difficult subject here. I agree you want some form of understandable rules of which field will trigger, however I’m not certain that your own fields is the right one. I’m also not sure it is wrong, but I want to have a bunch of alternative discussion before we dedicate programmer time (which is what it would take) to address this issue.

I think a good exercise would be to list some possible systems and list the pros and cons of each.

i.e.

List Method
There is a personalized list where you get to pick the order that you care about.
Pro: You get to decide
Con: It is a pretty advanced decision that I never expect 90% of players to understand so it doesn’t solve the problem for the majority of the playerbase.
Con: Whatever you setup outside of a specific combat situation isn’t necessarily going to be the right thing once you get in combat. If instead there is a logic rule instead of a chosen one you can adapt your tactics to follow that rule and get the situational results you desire.
Con: Probably the most work of any of the currently proposed solutions without solving the problem for every user.

I think there are a few more pros/cons to this system as well but I think you get the idea.

Other ideas floating out there

• Fixed Priority – Always the same priority for all players.
• Time Based – The most recent or least recent field is what triggers.
• Self Priority – Your own fields take priority (this would have to be a rule that stacks on top of another system.

Jon

No

I do not see how you will ever be put in a situation where your personalized priority list will ever be a negative. There will be a consistent internal logic that you, the person who set the priority list, will understand fully and thus can adapt to it. This is even moreso in the case of “fields you create take priority”, you simply do not create a field untill you are ready to combo in it.

Is this even a question? I’m fairly certain nobody would actually enjoy playing a gank-or-be-ganked game.

An option to use the old Beta announcer lines would be nice too.

HOLD ON TO YOUR POINTS, SEIZE THEIRS. DO I HAVE TO DRAW YOU A PICTURE?!

YOU COULDN’T KEEP THE KEEP!

Swagg.9236:

I actually just thought that it could be given a post-cast explosion delay that creates the field and that the field could shrink in size considerably. It’s a real shame that nobody ever has to aim that skill. I’m serious when I say that a 120 – 150 – 180 radius with more raw damage and a duration adjustment would be more balanced than it is now.

Sooo then you’d have to
1) Aim the field ahead of time
2) Somehow get the enemy into the effective radius
3) Keep them there for it’s entire duration

to get the best use out of it? As literally the only field Warr has access to, coupled with how anti-utility/toolkit most warrior weapons are, I’d say it’s fine as it is, especially being the profession-mechanic LB burst skill – the one skill on your weapon that you should find amazing. If anything Burning, the condition itself, should be getting looked at for how easy it is to constantly keep up for what is supposedly the burst damage condition.

Swagg.9236:

It is a shame. It really does require 3 stats to make power viable and yet condition damage only needs 1. There’s just almost no way to fix that without completely redoing how conditions deal damage. The most that anyone could do to fix it would be to make condition skills less spammy, reduce the total amount of condition skills in general and make the remaining condition skills deal more conditions and also give them well-cued animations.

I really have no idea how people can think that how we currently deal with conditions is acceptable. It’s gotten to the point where if you don’t have a full condition wipe (from lyssa runes for example), on top of significant low CD cleansing abilities, condition builds are just going to wreck you.

I agree with condition skills being terribly spammy – bring up a list of the best condition applying skills, and they just so happen to be completely effortless to pull off. Terrible offenders are things like Grenade Kit, Necro Marks, and to a lesser degree those ranged autoattacks that very quickly stack up to 4~5+ bleeds on you like Necro scepter auto and Spirit Ranger shortbow auto.

As a Warrior main I don’t think the Healing Signet suggestion OP is making is particularly OP. HS’s active has a 1.25s cast time, meaning that if you were to spam it on traited cooldown, you’d be doing nothing but casting that extremely obvious and interruptable skill ~7.2% of the time. If you do get interrupted, it goes on a 3s CD wherein you don’t even get the passive healing. I’d say that’s a fair tradeoff for getting 18.75% uptime on preemptive protection. This is on top of how you can just time your burst within the ~14.25s to the warrior’s next use of HS.

Additionally, I feel it is the combination of a lot of small things that make warrior so strong. An easy fix to bring warrior back down to normal levels without making it obsolete would be to implement:

• Combustive Shot now fails to create a Fire Field and thus spend adrenaline if used while blinded.

While this is yet another nerf to a base warrior weapon skill (which I strongly dislike because it affects all builds using said weapon), making Combustive Shot work like that now standardizes every burst skill’s interaction with Cleansing Ire. I.E., it’s now completely counter-played by blind (accessible in spades on Thief and Guard, moderately on Ele and Engi, and rarely on Warrior and Necro).

Also yes, the banner itself grants constant regeneration (the boon) to everyone in it’s radius. Really though, the banner condi regen build is only disgusting because condition damage is disgusting and the game allows you to stack both optimal damage and defense when you go condi.

It’s great in WvW, kinda bad in PvP, and situationally amazing in PvE.

Like really when I do fractals I just jump into a red circle and heal straight back to full HP, it’s such an amazing feeling.

Loading.4503:

Just wanna say that leg specialist works amazingly with leap and final thrust, but I’m pretty sure you guys will still say it will miss 90% of the time…

Uh no it doesn’t, leg specialist immobolizes for 1 second, with all the delay at the end of savage leap and Final Thrust’s clunky slow animation that immob is going to wear out and allow them to dodge before you land it.

I’d say passive play is “effectiveness in respect to effort put in by player”.

So stuff like Spirit Ranger, MM Necro, Condi Necro, PU Mesmer, Phantasm Mesmer.

It should inflict a strong condition if target is over 50%, and do strong direct damage if the target is under 50%. That way it’s useful for both types of Sword builds and you certainly won’t waste the 15s cooldown on it to do crappy condi damage on a zerker spec above 50% and vice versa.

Jesus christ everyone crying about their class being “nerfed” in this suggested changelog. It’s a global change to every single class to promote:
1) Increased cast times
2) higher Time-To-Kill
3) Provide Reaction time windows to many skills without visual cues
(Afaik plus a few other nerfs and buffs to promote diversity)

YES your backstab now has a cooldown but at least that Warrior you’re trying to kill can’t just nuke the ground he’s standing on to deal 7k damage to you instantly any more as you’re trying to backstab him.

Thank you for putting the time into this Swagg, here’s hoping that someone at Arenanet reads this and forwards this to the relevant authorities.

No, I’m pretty sure it’s just bad coding with the trait setting the CD to 5s rather than reducing 5s off the default CD.

I’ve been using a build derived from his sword/wh + Hammer build since he posted it. It’s definitely the most fun build I’ve tried on Warrior.

Yes

Like dear God

Why are dragonite ores so bloody exclusive to only ONE form of content? Why not spread the distribution out more? I have like 20 bloodstone and 7 emps but only 1 dragonite, what’s up with that?

Not even sure how it happened but a match I queue’d up for started off as a 4v5

It was awful

I’m not even sure why the matchmaking allows 4v5s to start once the timer runs out

>Everyone just taking this guy’s thread seriously despite having made multiple posts about how OP he thinks Warrior is

Legitimate claims or not his attitude certainly doesn’t warrant taking any real effort replying him.

I think the problem is that everyone else has too much aoe/teamfight damage..

“Ridiculous rewards for minimal effort so people terrible at the game can still own veterans”

Aka “Cheese”

Hammer used to be ridiculed as the easiest weapon to dodge when you knew what you were doing. I think it speaks volumes on the average skill level of the playerbase that nothing can change about the hammer’s obvious attack animations before all the massive crying about it started.

I definitely miss when Warrior required some serious dedication to main in PvP. Also when my Hammer build was ridiculed for being the easiest nonsense to dodge ever.

Not even sure if this is for real or not but it’s pretty hilarious how a few months ago Warr Hammer was derided as the slowest, clunkiest, easiest weapon to dodge in the game.

Using Sword MH in general. Savage Leaping across gaps, landing that satisfying Final Thrust at key moments.

Oh and looking faaaabulous in heavy armour. That’s a huge plus.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I would be in favor of some very obvious effect around the player when they are under the effect of Stability. It would have to be obvious enough that it’s immediately apparent when they use it, but shouldn’t further obscure the battlefield more than the current amount of particle effects.

Perhaps a circle under their feet with the same pillar symbol that the boon has.

I second this idea. I’ve suggested in another thread for stability to have a consecration-like circle on the ground with the boon symbol appear; it fits into the theme of the boon.

I find a large bulk of your post extremely well thought out and brilliant specific suggestions, but I have to disagree with reducing BASE endurance regeneration rate. I find base regeneration rate pretty much ideal and it’s vigor/access to vigor (especially those traits that grant perma vigor on crit) that should be nerfed.

Jesus Christ this pants-on-head kittened argument

Are ascended weapons part of the game???

Would the process of getting them not constitute me “playing the game”???

People are telling me that I don’t need to play the game to play the game???

This is the most flagrantly dumb response in the same vein as telling people to “just quit”. If you are one of the people perpetrating this ridiculous stance REALIZE that the minute anet does something YOU don’t like (assuming you aren’t some kind of terrifying fanboy that adores anything anet throws at you) you’re in no way going to “just quit”.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

It does have an animation. It is a Icon on the opponents bar. If anything, perhaps make the HuD customised like it was in gw1, so player can arrange different on screen info to be in area’s that is more user friendly to their play style.

I for one would love to see my skills attached to the right side screen and move my buff/condi to lower left screen and my opponents buffs/condi’s to lower right screen so I can evaluate quickly where I am at and where they are at.

Your definition of “animation” is completely contrary to the norm, stability is a prime example of “starting at ui rather than the game”. What if you have a ground targeted cc and can’t look at the status screen of every single target in range?

Adding a subtle animation to stability is a win-win scenario almost every way you spin it.