Guild Wars 2

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Find your nearest sylvari and kiss for a long time. Problem solved. :P

I don’t know why, but this made me laugh till I got into a coughing fit. Out of curiosity, can Sylvari actually breath underwater without the rebreater?

Well, because there is no drowning game mechanic, you can remove your aquabreather underwater and never drown :P

CureForLiving.5360:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The idea was more that plants take in CO2 and give out breathable air – the reverse of animals. So theoretically (we don’t know if sylvari function this way!), a human and a sylvari could breath into each other without issue.

Stumbled on a conversation between two Asura in Brisban where one mentions that Sylvari do photosynthesis, and the other mentioned that no one has any idea how Sylvari work. So I guess that’s a maybe.

They do, but it’s not their only source of energy. It’s mentioned when the First sylvari who was met by Asura came back, his one leg looked like it had been out of the sun for far too long.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jormag slaughtered thousands of norn and kodan (and if norn skaalds are to be believed, hundreds of norn at once) and even killed a Spirit of the Wild – only losing a single tooth in the process, to a norn blessed by multiple Spirits of the Wild and with an ancient jotun (magical?) scroll.

Jormag is certainly aggressive, but that doesn’t make him the strongest. The Norn tend to fight their foes one-on-one, since they don’t believe in armies… nor in siege equipment it would seem. Apart from the Claw of Jormag battle, we see very little of Norn using siege equipment, which would be the right weapon to use against dragons. So the deaths that Jormag caused may have been a case of a lot of fool hearty overconfident Norn running in for the slaughter, with the wrong kinds of weapons. You can’t just fight an Elder Dragon with swords and bows alone.

Norn don’t form armies but that hardly means they’ll just sit back and go one at a time against the enemy. Norn individually are the strongest of the player races, stronger ones capable of soloing an entire charr warband.

Pact maintained that siege equipment, but still, Norn do know how to fight in large groups against single enemies. Great hunts for one, general combat as a mob… They just don’t have an army like the Charr or humans do.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@dace: In the cinematic, we see magic traveling to Mordremoth and going into its mouth after the Breachmaker reached its target (the ley lines). So it seems that Mordremoth was fed via Scarlet disrupting the ley lines (remember, she disrupted an interjection – I think what happened was that she prevented the ley lines from going anywhere but the one direction to Mordremoth).

The way I viewed it was maybe more of a straight interruption. Block the flow for a short while, then when it goes back to normal you have a surge of power going out.

edit: Out of all the dragons, Zhaitan was the most agressive in attacking others.

Primordus may be just as agressive, but he’s dealing with Dwarves and other still underground forces/races/creatures.

Jormag is pushing, but not majorly, most Sons of Svanir spreading corruption with icebrood not doing as much.

Branded stay on the brand, hardly leave it.

Bubbles may simply be sitting down there eating magic or not doing much. Or healing from any wounds taken during the forcing of other races from the deep.

CHIPS.6018:

The GW universe goes by the “degenerative” model. All the new life forms are like ants when compared to the older/ancient life forms.

We can see from the history of the GW universe that the older something is, the stronger it is. We heard about how crazy strong the Jotuns used to be. We head about an army of Lupis that used to rule the world. We also has seen first hand how dangerous the Mursaats were. The heroes only beat the Mursaats by the help of an equally ancient race: Seers.

So it shouldn’t surprise anyone that the heroes from GW1 would be stronger than the heroes in GW2.

Perhaps in GW1 having duel professions was indeed the norm. And perhaps having 200+ skills was also the norm. Skills like Empathy, Eviscerate and Spiteful Spirit were clear indicators on how strong GW1 heroes use to be. We didn’t think much about all of that at the time because everyone was that strong.

Not really. For certain races perhaps, but it was always more implied to be their civilization had advanced so far. The Jotun are an example. Once they were a mighty, proud, very powerful race. Now they are wandering barbarian tribes basically.

IIRC, somebody pointed out how several aspects of some GW2 classes point toward a more seamless ‘duel class’ combination.

Like the warrior maces causing a shockwave (ele) or the longbow skills (ranger). Guardians are basically Paragons, rits, and monks mixed together.

Honestly, I see it more as “Those civilizations got very advanced and powerful” not “Ancient things automatically are more powerful” like why Orr has powerful relics. They were a very magically powerful nation close to the gods.

The way I had actually heard it(unsure if it was from anet), it was more of a case of "Back then, the players had a ‘smaller’ focus of magic, and thus could learn the two professions at same time without harming their power. However in the 250 years that passed, magic has changed somewhat. Was either changed or the professions basically became more focused so a master necromancer would spend his entire time studying necromancy, instead of taking the random mesmer or monk course on the side.

NOW, a human (or any race) who used magic to prolong their life to GW2 and spent that time studying/improving themselves/getting better (instead of sleeping on a couch all day) will basically stomp a GW2 era person due to experience and power. IE, my GW1 necro who I describe as living to GW2 era would stomp any ‘modern’ necromancer because she kept getting more powerful and skilled.

Blurk.6231:

Well they did release fake patch notes nerfing everything and making bad balance decisions once. So that is kind of being jerks :P

But as Konig said, saying the feature pack is not coming is too big of a jerk joke.

I can appreciate a good joke though.

Their April Fools patchnotes are released on that day, not before.

Hell, I’d like it if there was something to entice people to actually CLEAR dungeons instead of running past almost EVERY enemy (some paths moreso then others).

CHIPS.6018:

Perhaps more than 1 person is capable of living for 300 years. Since Anise most likely knows Livia personally, they may pass secrets and magic between each other.

Anet explicitly said people could do that. GW1 humans could use magic to live all the way to GW2+.

If he says nobody else can use magic. Simply tell him to play GW1.

EVERYBODY used magic.

Well, I may do more sPVP for those reward tracks, but I’m hoping they make the PVP only armors available to PVE in a reasonable manner. “Unlockable with reasonable goalpoints” is better then impossible.

Kalavier.1097:

But really, to those complaining about the lack of Pact involvement. What can the Pact bring forth that the Orders could not?

Airships, Helis, tanks, heavy golems and artillery.

Okay, now how GOOD is any of that for battle of LA?

Airships: Aetherblade airships basically bombarded the city, dropped off troops then bugged out. Kiel was able to fly her airships into LA, pick up lionguard from the fort, then leave without any issue. Pact Airships would at most, delay/stop the bombardment (But instead rain debris on the city).
Helicopters: No real use besides emergency evac of wounded maybe.
tanks: No use at all. No room to manuver/place them for one, and many of the bridges might not support the weight, ESPECIALLY post bombardment.
Heavy golems: Most useful, especially in clearing mobs of bad guys, rubble trapping civilians, and taking on the watchwork nightmares and such.
Artillery: Useless.

So… Why does the Pact have to be there? Orders = Pact Manpower and were there already and helped out a lot. Why does Pact leadership and heavy gear need to be there?

I’m kinda double posting but bringing this one back to the front.

Orders = Pact manpower mostly. So besides that (Which the orders helped out with to the Lionguard), what good would bringing forth all that heavy gear to LA do really?

Simply to point out, the BIGGEST thing the Pact leadership could’ve sent is Airships. The airships wouldn’t have won the battle or even stopped most of the deaths (Miasma, Watchwork, Molten, and Toxic forces on the ground). Yes, they randomly bombarded the ground after the first wave, but really they weren’t holding a fleet above them.

The WW2 comparison I think I missed quoting. No, it’s not saying “Ignore the bombers” It’s more like “YAY, we stopped the bombers! Now a large infantry and tank wave just bulldozed through the city + the bombs the bombers already dropped and their debris.”

edit: Actually, having the pact airships parked near (or in) LA is a terrible idea. The Aetherblades could easily ‘pearl harbor’ them by dropping from above and behind (Their standard flying was above cloud line, as noted by the only warning LA had was “We have some clouds seeming to move against the wind.”), volleying into the unprepared airships crippling or destroying them, then moving into LA.

Or simply holding the attack off for a week or so to send the crews and forces from a “HIGH ALERT MEN!” to “This is bullkitten. Is the attack even coming?” then striking.

CHIPS.6018:

A) You have to keep in mind that when people are fighting for the Pact, they are not able to join the local army and police. That means the Pact, indirectly, weakens all the local defensive forces by taking away their manpower.

The pact manpower = orders. Given how Scarlet’s previous attacks all got handled (for the most part) by local forces without a terrible amount of effort, I’m not seeing why the pact would have to rush an army up. Also, I’ve gotten the implication it’s mostly adventurers who join the orders, and the local militaries are still fairly strong. They simply are tied up in various conflicts.

The three ‘prong’ attack Scarlet pulled off would’ve resulted in massive civilian deaths anyway. Pact members (players) were already in the region and the entire battle most likely took place… a week, maybe less (Not real life time, lore time). I’ve heard implications the baby born in Gendarren fields was born first day of the attack, and the Lionguard medic comments it’s the “first birth since Scarlet’ started her attack a week ago”. Given how that was in cleanup stage (And a bit had already happened), I can assume that statement is said a day or so after the battle ended.

As I say before, my statements point to “Pact forces there at the moment need to stick around. They need the heavy gear there. The pact really could only send leadership elements and heavy gear. Heavy gear wasn’t needed and the leadership was covered. The orders that make up the Pact manpower assisted a good bit already so why would they need to send more?”

The Pact didn’t know when, or where the attack would come from. Parking an army outside of the city would still be a bad move. The battle didn’t last a month in the lore, because for example, the “escape” from LA event only happened once. The battle? once. We are looking at maybe around a week from the very first airship flying into LA to the cleanup that was the “aftermath” update. Again, Orders helped. Orders = Pact manpower.

D) It was the failure of Order of Whisper in not being able to locate Aetherblades’ main base.
Think about it. We held Mai Trin for like a year. How can we not mesmerize/intimidate/torture some kind of information out of her after all this time?
There must also be some off screen captures of other Aetherblade members. How can we have no information out of any of them after over a year?
Imagine having the FBI or CIA being idiots and know nothing.

Yes, and that’s why we had no trouble finding the terrorists and their leaders after 9-11 right? We had some of them captured and in prison for a while why didn’t they get the information out huh?

1: Besides the fact the orders existed before the pact, and the local military forces were FINE. Orders = pact manpower.
2: All her previous actions were solved by local forces, local order deployments, and adventurers. Why would they expect this to be different? Also, airships are hard to hide near the ground. They’d be spotted as the Aetherblades head into LA.
3: I’m fairly sure say… a USA city/area would become very uncomfortable and wary if say, the Canadian military parked a large force on their side of the border and sat there until a vicious attack came to the local area.
4: I never said they tie up ALL of the manpower. I’ve been saying the opposite if you bother to READ. I’m saying the heavy gear deployed in Orr is needed for the moment to stick around. The manpower in Orr needs to stick around for the short while. The manpower of the orders (WHICH IS THE PACT, just Locally and under order control not pact) responded to the issue instantly and helped out. Why do they need reinforcements from Orr?

CHIPS.6018:

You are missing the point.

If the Risen and other dragon minions managed to tie down 100% of the Pact manpower & airships & resources, then the Pact already lost the war.

You are also missing the point, by a GIANT factor. I’m not saying “OMG THE PACT NEEDS IT’S FULL ARMY AT ORR CONSTANTLY!”

I’m saying “The Pact, ATM, needs to keep some of that heavy gear in Orr right now until they get a solid campaign plan set for the next dragon. It’s manpower (aka, the orders) obviously is free to help with LA (and they did, a lot). The only thing the Pact didn’t ‘send’ to LA was it’s heavy gear (airships, golems, tanks, subs, etc), and leadership elements.”

Also the carnival knight jousting thing. You can find props for it in Skrittsburg, along with a Skritt who is reading the manual/tale and trying to be a knight if I recall right :P.

There is plenty to point toward horses in GW.

With the last blog post about the PVP locker merging into Wardrobe, does this mean we FINALLY will be able to get the two PVP only skins in PVE? (Commando for medium, and the tribal/voodoo for light)

If so, YES. I (and friends) will love that! I think it’s a great thing.

The real thing is, you still have to go through the cost/effort to get the items. I don’t consider it worthless/cheapened if to unlock abyss dye on my account, I still have to pay the gold cost (Infact, I may be more tempted to actually BUY some of the expensive ones purely for that reason of account wide).

If I want an armor skin/weapon skin/legendary, I must BUY the item with gold. cultural or not.

So even if your level 4 alt is rocking tier 3 cultural and duel legendary(skin) daggers, to me it says you’ve at least bought that tier 3 cultural armor and made (or bought) a legendary.

Lostwingman.5034:

Kalavier.1097:

Humans have horses and ponies. Why would they need centaurs as mounts? :P

There are no horses and ponies in Guild Wars aside from a few off mentions AFAIK.

Undead horsemen, celestial horse(Cantha), all those carriages and wagons. A few npcs mention ponies. There is a good chunk implying or pointing at horses :P.

Horses exist in the world, ingame they simply don’t show up.

Tanith.5264:

Wandering slightly OT for this, but seeing the centaur discussion makes me wonder…

…has anyone ever encountered a risen/icebrood/branded centaur?

Nope, because Centaurs are not in the regions where they would be turned into branded, icebrood, or risen. Besides one group in Snowden drifts (which is on the opposite end of the area from where the Claw of Jormag flies and caused the icebrood controlled haven there), they are all within Kryta and away from the coast. No centaur is within Ascalon (at least no tribes).

Huh. I recall them calling it at end of Nightfall as Kormir’s realm. Perhaps a section became her realm while the rest maintained it’s current status.

Jotun and Giants really show no signs of being close to extinction. Jotun are fairly widespread on the shiverpeaks, and Giants while being rare don’t really get treated as such. Giants in GW2 are one of those races that ‘thrives’ but just rarely appears :P.

Forgotton we have no idea about, though I’d wager they are thriving(in a sense) since the ones in the Realm of Torment no longer have constant Margonite and demon threat (Since it was reforemd into Kormir’s realm).

Mursaat are the closest you could get, depending on your viewpoint it could be very few were left at end of GW1/GW beyond, or their military/forces outside their home got wiped out. Seers were implied to be very few though.

I think the problem is people perhaps viewing ingame npcs as say.. the actual population.

I highly doubt LA had 1000-2000 NPCs within it before the battle, yet I’ve heard a population number of something like 50k for the city, with 15k escaping.

For all we know, those various villages may have quite a bit of people, but ingame you see 10-15 quaggan in a village (Or Hylek, or anything else really). Those refugee camps probably have a LOT of people in them, yet ingame have a few.

So when we look at it, we also have to think about possibility of gameplay/lore separation.

Humans have horses and ponies. Why would they need centaurs as mounts? :P

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Here’s some other possible races risking extinction:

• Centaurs. In their lore, the centaurs are literally out of room to live – they’ve been pushed north by humans, and south by Jormag (for Modniir), and for unknown reasons out of the Maguuma Wastes it seems. Their war with humans have become just as much “we need land to survive!” as much as “I hate humanity for kicking us off our lands!” Furthermore, their unifying leader, Ulgoth, is dead story wise (or so I would presume, since we kill him in Harathi Hinterlands).
• Tengu. Yeah, you may not think it at first. But consider: all tengu from throughout the world live within the Dominion of Winds. Unless they live in freakin skyscrapers or dug deep into the earth for living space underground, the entire race lives within that one city. That’d be like saying all humans ever live within Divintiy’s Reach – not even, actually, due to how much water’s within the wall.
• Clearly the dwarves. No indication they can reproduce so they’re sterile with dwindling numbers from war.

Centaurs also had a fairly large population in Elona. That group may still be alive and well (Although probably enslaved/forced to serve Joko).

Tengu… IIRC, Dominion of Winds isn’t stated to be a single city or simply a walled off nation. They have a fairly hefty amount of land within the walled section, though wiki states it’s basically Sanctum Cay (the island) but their walls ingame include a bit more land. Basically, they could be controlling the Island of Sanctum Cay (which is bordered by the Caledon forest and Kessex Hills), as well as the area between Kessex hills and LA (which is where the one gate is located).

Dwarves we really don’t know anything about their current status besides holding off the bulk of Destroyers deep underground (Deep enough even the Dredge haven’t run into them yet).

Hylek can’t really form a solid nation. It’s noted in lore the different skintones means different personalities really.

Red and Orange have the most toxins, so they are the most violent and agressive. Yellow flip-flops between the two sides, and Blue and Green are the nice ones (Because of less toxins naturally in body).

Quaggan I doubt are in danger of being extinct, same with Hylek. Sure, some tribes are having trouble but overall they aren’t losing major numbers daily. A few tribes of Quaggan that I recall are actually in sheltered areas without a major cause of trouble.

Kodan I doubt are nearing extinction. There are the ones in Frostgorge, as well as a stable group in Snowden Drifts and Fireheart Rise, both of which are rather large. Likewise, there are probably more of their iceberg ships elsewhere that we haven’t seen yet.

I think the description of Hylek similar to Grawl is true. Each tribe might have a specific danger/threat to them, but overall the race is stable population wise. Quaggan are similar but a little bit more at threat.

Lostwingman.5034:

Oh, I wasn’t replying to you, I was replying to CHIPS. It’s just you responded as I did and I didn’t feel like editing in a bunch of quotes lol

I know. Just reinforcing your statements.

Fluffball.8307:

It’s very close to heavy Sunspear armor (which admittedly some of the warriors wore as well.)

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/9/9a/Sunspear_f_armored.jpg

Sunspear does not equal paragon, but paragon does equal Sunspear.

And a number of sunspears joined Joko, as well as various awakened (Joko’s undead) who were Paragons completely and utterly.

Elona is home of sunspears and paragons, but being a Paragon doesn’t automatically mean you are a sunspear. The general who joins you (Kournan) as a hero (I forget his name) as one after all.

Fluffball.8307:

Miyani appears to be a paragon. She’s a Sunspear and is wearing paragon armor.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/2/23/Miyani.jpg

A: Sunspear doesn’t = Paragon automatically
B: That armor can be worn by guardians or warriors. It’s plate armor, similar to some nightfall paragon armor styles, but not an exact match nor truly distinctive.

“Paragon” is likely still around, though obviously in Elona only mainly. Plenty of undead were Paragons in Joko’s forces in Nightfall.

Lostwingman.5034:

-How exactly do we know that there is no need for Airships in Orr? I’d love for that to be elucidated on as apparently Tequatl is still around and kicking post-Zhaitan.

Hell, tequatl is STRONGER post-zhaitan. It’s not entirely clear why (Whether this is his own doing or something related to Zhaitan), but imagine if that was occuring across most of Zhaitan’s dragons? Ouch. Especially if they fall into the ocean or mountains and thus the Pact can’t get there and destroy the body, they may regen enough to wake back up and fight again (Or drag themselves into whatever lairs they have to heal).

-The Pact’s job is not to take the forces allocated to them for fighting dragons and use it for their own goals and purposes.

Indeed, going off to fight criminals and Deviants would produce bad PR for the Pact. Either people would EXPECT them to fight off the criminal warlords and troublemakers, or the Pact would do it and stretch their forces to the point of being useless.

-Why would it be a better idea to park Pact airships outside LA against the wishes of the Captain’s Council when Orr is still overrun with undead (likely still the dragons as well), the Jormag is pushing South, and the Shatterer is spitting distance from major population centers?

EXACTLY what I’ve been saying. Especially since nobody could confirm how or from which direction the attack could come from.

-The only way Pact airships reach LA in time to have any affect on the situation is if they are already there. Sitting around. Parked. Doing nothing. When they threat that they are intended to fight is still out there and very much visible and requiring attention.

-Oh god, why does this have “waste billions of dollars looking for goat farmers with AK’s!” written all over it.

Lionguard have at least 3 airships (including Kiels). Two are parked in Gendarran fields (I believe those two were shown in the Aetherblade path ending as well), and then Kiels to the south of LA.

But really, to those complaining about the lack of Pact involvement. What can the Pact bring forth that the Orders could not?

Airships, Helis, tanks, heavy golems and artillery.

Okay, now how GOOD is any of that for battle of LA?

Airships: Aetherblade airships basically bombarded the city, dropped off troops then bugged out. Kiel was able to fly her airships into LA, pick up lionguard from the fort, then leave without any issue. Pact Airships would at most, delay/stop the bombardment (But instead rain debris on the city).
Helicopters: No real use besides emergency evac of wounded maybe.
tanks: No use at all. No room to manuver/place them for one, and many of the bridges might not support the weight, ESPECIALLY post bombardment.
Heavy golems: Most useful, especially in clearing mobs of bad guys, rubble trapping civilians, and taking on the watchwork nightmares and such.
Artillery: Useless.

So… Why does the Pact have to be there? Orders = Pact Manpower and were there already and helped out a lot. Why does Pact leadership and heavy gear need to be there?

CHIPS.6018:

-Yes of course the airships are in Orr. But that’s the problem.

There is no need for airships in Orr right now. Zhaitan is “dead”. The Risen is a mop up operation by this point. That’s why many Pact members were allowed to take a leave of absence.

The army’s resource should be reallocated to the area in more dire needs. The Pact fails at doing that.

If risen require major body damage to ‘die’, we’ve never done that amount to Dragon champions or some larger Risen. Airships and forces in Orr are required to be there to ‘clean up’. It’s not as easy as it sounds NOR has there been any implication of large numbers of Pact personnel being allowed to take a vacation. Orr may be cleansed, but it’ll take years for the corruption to wash free. A HUGE chunk of Orr is completely uncharted (modern) still. They HAVE to push the risen back and secure anything that spawns the dragon corruption or else the Risen will NEVER be defeated.

-What kamikaze? We just established above that the Pact airships can fight against the Aetherblade airships on a equal footing. So sending Pact airships into LA is not kamikaze. It would be a fair fight.

Unsure what you mean, but even if Pact Airships had been above LA, they would’ve fallen to the Aetherblade tactic of dropping from high up to close range when that are right ontop of the enemy. And the wreckage would ruin LA.

And I never advice for cannon fodders. Sending Pact airships into LA to fight Aetherblade airships isn’t cannon foddering. It is a fair fight, as we established above.

Fair fight which would cause a lot of destruction to LA, even if neither side fired cannons toward the ground. Also, Molten Alliance and Toxic alliance alone would be able to force the Lionguard into retreat with the Miasma.

-Attrition works against anyone. We just need to locate the home base of the Aetherblades. Just because we currently do not know their home base, it does not mean it literally doesn’t exist. No army can exist without a supply line. Once these idiots from the Order of Whispers give us the information we need, we can wipe out the Aetherblades.

Assuming the OoW hadn’t been trying. And that they are idiots. (None of the orders are idiots)

Their supply line to bases may be airships flying really kitten high. We have no idea where the forces retreat to after various events ended. Hell, if the Aetherblades have portals to the mists and use those… They kittening could be WHO KNOWS WHERE in the mists and emerge to cause chaos.

Okay, a calmer, more concise post variant of my earlier one.

A: If the Pact got involved, it could hold bad implications. Either 1: People start expecting them to stop local warlords/criminal groups, and when they don’t they complain. or 2: Pact stretches itself thin and useless fighting EVERYBODY’s battles.
B: As said in the post I quoted, we can’t expect them to fight every battle, they focus on dragon related fights.
C: LA/Captain’s council didn’t ask for help. Marching in against the will of the local leadership can cause other cities and towns to question if the Pact will just force themselves in without invitation or warning.
D: Scarlet’s forces (Before LA) never really worked together, and were swiftly beat down. If you asked Trahearne to launch an airship force to take out the aetherblades or anybody else, you’d have to answer “Where is their base?” WHICH, nobody knew. Ever. We knew of a threat toward LA but we had no idea where it’d come from. Which is how Scarlet steamrolled the defenses. Aetherblades from above bombarding, then Molten Alliance from underground and Toxic from the sea.
E: The Pact IS the orders. Orders provide manpower to the Pact. Really, the only ‘special’ things the Pact could’ve brought forth is leadership/officer elements (Wasn’t needed) or heavy gear (Airships, tanks, etc… which wouldn’t have truly helped). By the time they could’ve had a force mobilized and ready to launch from Fort trinity, the worst of the fighting would be over. By the time they reached LA, it’d be cleanup time.

If I played my character as a commander of the Pact (Second in command or just commander level/very high up), She’d understand why Trahearne couldn’t get involved. As noted above. First off, the situations before got handled neatly by local forces and adventurers without too much issue. Secondly, they had no idea where the forces retreated to. Thirdly, it’d possibly cause a PR disaster or create unwanted expectations about the Pact.

The Risen, as I’ve heard, have to be heavily smashed up/damaged to ‘die’ fully. We may have never completely killed the risen giants, larger risen, or dragon champions. They need the forces deployed in Orr to handle the Risen cleanup, which isn’t an easy task.

A: Waypoints cost money. It’s likely cheaper to simply walk there then pay waypoint fees for going back and forth.
B: We’ve NEVER seen or heard about it being used for supplies, or larger things like wagons/siege golems/etc.
C: Likewise, we don’t really see it or hear about it being used for large groups of people at a single time.

Hell, in canon (And stated by NPCs ingame), there is a charge for the Asura Gates as well (Or at least, a charge for moving any time of shipment through it). We don’t get it (I like to say it’s some sort of deal between orders and Arcane council. But that’s headcanon :P I assume the gates at the order headquarters are somewhat exempt from this as opposed to city ones)

In the end, the average citizen may simply find it cheaper or more affordable to simply take a few day trip to head from LA to DR. There is a Norn citizen in Snowden who is taking her sick/weak child to Hoelbrek by land, likely the waypoint or asura gate would be too expensive.

I’ve heard that Sea of Sorrows states Guardians to basically be Monks, with a bit of Paragon and a dash of ritualistic magic.

Lasica.5068:

Thinking about this I wonder why people think the Pact should be involved?

It’s an organisation put together to fight the Elder Dragons, it’s not there to solve every internal conflict or war within or between nations. Should the Pact also be involved in fighting the Inquest? or the rebels threatening the human/charr peace around Ebonhawke.

As the NPC added in this update said, had they known Scarlet was involved with the Elder Dragons they would have assisted. This is because then they would be filling their role.

EXACTLY. They aren’t going to charge forth to stop every racial deviant and criminal group. Besides the fact the problems often were solved quickly by local forces and adventurers.

I HAD a long as kitten multi-point post explaining a lot of the reasons the Pact didn’t get involved, but it got wiped accidentally. I’ll retype it later and post it here.

Ulyssean.1709:

Kalavier.1097:

B: Scarlet attacked in a manner NOBODY EXPECTED (leadership wise). A massive air attack by airships hasn’t been done before (toward ground targets).

Nobody expected it?

A bunch of sky-pirates whose signature move is attacking with airships attack the city twice. The first time they assassinate one of the Captain’s Council and the second time is 6 months later to break the assassin out of jail.

These sky pirates had a secret base in LA that was discovered. They have one just outside LA too.

So nobody expected these airship pirates to attack LA after they had attacked it repeatedly?

“Yeah, these pirate guys use airships but they’ve not used them yet so they probably won’t in the future.”

Brilliant.

Tell me, in GW2 time, how many times do we use airships to bombard the ground?

Never. It’s always against the dragons. So yes, suddenly having an entire FLEET of airships drop out of the clouds DIRECTLY ONTOP of the city and let loose with a major bombardment then deploying troops is a brand new tactic in the “warbook” of the nation.

In the previous attacks/encounters, the Aetherblades never used their airships to bombard ground locations. Dropping off troops, but not as a direct attack. They knew the attack would involve the air (Kiel at least, probably Magnus), but the scale was overwhelming. In RTS terms, Scarlet steamrolled the lionguard.

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

Oh right, Kalavier, you just remind me of something.

ASURA GATE ANYONE?

I simply can’t belive that PACT is unable to set up a temporary asura gate on the filed if they need to recall the units to Fort Trinity in case of sudden attack on that said fort.

And let’s not forget that ALL of the orders keeps have asura gate that are conected to Fort Trinity, even if they can’t send out their Airships they still can send out the troops.

YAY. You just moved troops into a tiny courtyard at each base. Now you have no airships, tanks, siege golems, supply crates, siege weapons (other then tanks)… congrats. You moved manpower, and nothing else.

Troop wise the orders and lionguard had it completely covered (with adventurer help). Troops wouldn’t have made as big a difference as airships or heavy gear, which can’t fit through the small gates at Fort Trinity.

Also, Asura gates are not that easy or quick to set up. Snaff (I think) was super huge because he made that portable asura gate thing that worked. Nothing has come really close. Waypoints are canon, but as far as we’ve seen they are never used to transport supplies, large objects (wagons, tanks, crates, etc), and most of the time all npcs rather walk (probably because of expenses).

Traveller.7496:

Fallout.1798:

Just to help clarify, it is well documented about the incident with Evon and the asura gate during the Escape from Lion’s Arch release.

I will post this again for clarity’s sake as well. Now, who shut down the gates?

I’ll again say this, sitting in a refugee camp, do you really want to openly say “Oh, I was about to shut off the final gate after the last group of civilians went through, but then Evon barreled through and shut it off before they could reach it.” while Evon is just up the hill? You’d risk possibly angry mob going after him. “My father was near the gate hub last I saw him, he might’ve gotten out if you hadn’t stranded him!” etc

I think the battle really only lasted a few days at most. Likely that they made off with some but the bulk was secured.

I’m just going to post this. Let’s say the the Pact had a small force of airships and troops ready to deploy from Fort Trinity to whereever Scarlet attacks next.

TRAVEL TIME. It’d take a while to get from FT to LA. “Scarlet has attacked all over before!” yeah, but then you leave out the crucial bit. “Oh, and all these other attacks were stopped/repelled before major damage was done.”

Basically, before the assault on LA, we only saw a fraction of her military might. We didn’t truly see the different groups working together all at the same time.

I’ll simply say I truly do understand your point about perhaps the Pact being ready to send military aid, but mobilization, recalling, rearming/resupplying, and travel times would make responses so delayed it’s worthless. This isn’t the order (Vigil for example) going “OHkitten, LA under attack, quick grab those reserves and recruits from the barracks and courtyard and get down there! You over there, recall local forces or redirect them to LA.” This is “We just got news LA was attacked.”
“How bad?”
“Really bad, the Lionguard got routed but them and the local order forces are regrouping for a counter attack.”
“Okay, get ready some reserve forces to head out and load the airships, send a person through the Asura gate to the order bases to learn more about the situation.”

We are talking about a force that isn’t (at most, Vigil keep. Good bit less then a day for whispers and perhaps a tiny bit more for Priory without that gate) a day(or half-day) of travel away perhaps (realistically, not gameplay). We are talking about a force that is spread out across a nation, and that area of land (Orr) is a very decent distance away. That and if it truly was Airships that are required, Lionguard had three around LA post battle.

There are ALWAYS plot holes if all you do is dig for them. If Scarlet’s army was able to be defeated by the Lionguard (with order assistance), then the Pact simply wasn’t needed besides perhaps airship interdiction. Lionguard is for all purposes, the weakest military force manpower wise. (Or at least, reasonable would be).

lordkrall.7241:

There is actually a NPC in Lion’s Arch explaining all this.

He basically says: “Since Scarlet had nothing to do with Dragons, it was of no interest to the Pact, since the Pact is specifically for hunting the Dragons. And we now sent some people when it was made clear that Scarlet did indeed had ties to a Dragon, thus we are here now”.

You left out the “We are out hunting/planning to hunt dragons, not hunting down deviants.”

Yes, it’s kinda a eh response, but it’s fitting and explains it nicely. People just kitten to kitten.

I can understand their viewpoints, about Pact helping out with their gear. But they seem to ignore the whole mobilization/recall timeframe + travel time. By the time Pact forces reached LA, the battle could be over and in cleanup phase.

Thobek.1730:

It was never proven that Evon shut down the Asuran Gate. How does he have access to its controls anyhow?

Sure I watched the scene where he walks through it and it closes down behind him, but who knows why or how it closed. People (haters) are just guessing that it was him.

I could make a guess to say Kiel did it to make him look bad… I have no proof either.

If he didn’t, then why does he go “Oh, that’s why you are worried? I got your back don’t worry” and then the second he goes through it shuts off? +Shud being surprised about it.

Shud mentions she shut off the gates, but that’s probably cause she doesn’t want to possibly start a riot by publically stating Evon shut off the gate in the face of a bunch of citizens in the middle of town… while standing in a refugee camp.

Getefix.9150:

Lydell.8713:

Getefix.9150:

i wanted to talk about 2 things
1) kiels behaviour during this attack was abysmal – i never once saw her on the battlefield (as per usual) and she threatened gnashblade into service – not kidding, it was either work for free or firing squad -

So, basically, she kept him from making money off the backs of the victims of Scarlet’s attack. Not only that, but she used her power to get him to help people, not for profit, but just because they needed help. Jeez, what a terrible, heartless woman.

it was still a threat, i dont think thats the right thing to do, she could have had a word with him/tried to persuade him but she didnt even try

IMO, the threat was probably more of a means to force him to help because they all knew if given a choice, he’d pack up his goods and money and just leave them in the dirt. I took it as more of a “Oh, if he says no/does this, pull this line out.”

Dean Calaway.9718:

I guess one way to look at it is the event didn’t happen along 4 weeks, that’s just a game mechanic, it happened much faster say a day or two and no one really got the chance to get the money out of there.

Now they kick you to prevent looting.

I highly doubt it took 4 weeks, considering how most of the fires just now stopped. I doubt it took two weeks for the wind to blow the Miasma from the city…

It’s realistic. Not often does war end pretty and nice. Battles ruin towns and scar them for a while.

It’s one of the things I said during Escape and battle of LA updates to people here and ingame… People LOVE to talk about “Oh, if we had X this would never have happened! LA would be fine!”

Gravity is cruel. Wreckage causes just as much damage. The Bombardments ruined LA, and the breachmaker exploding caused worse damage simply from large chunks of debris flying everywhere.

We won, and perhaps for once (In GW2 maybe, Gw in general perhaps, or even general fantasy) we look around and we see just how little is left standing.

Mega Messiah.1734:

Equinox.4968:

CETheLucid.3964:

Equinox.4968:

Anet wants to cut all of its ties with GW1.

Except they don’t.

Then why have they mostly created new lore out of whole cloth, with minimal ties to GW1 lore?

Because all that stuff is 250 years old.

Things don’t usually stay incredibly relevant for over 2 centuries. It’s time for new stories with inklings of the past thrown in. I don’t want to have all of GW1’s plots come front and center unless it is actually relevant and server a purpose beyond fan service.

If they bring back the Mursaat, I want there to be a reason.
If they decide Abaddon DIDN’T die, then I want there to be a reason.
If the Dwarves suddenly make their triumphant return from the Depths of Tyria, I want there to be a reason.

Abaddon died. Anet said it outright he’s gone forever.

But, there is a point. Some of that stuff listed (RL) has survived all these years… because it’s been maintained, most of the GW1 stuff hasn’t or got hit by natural disasters.

Ruins hundreds of years old are nothing compared to their “Brand new” splendor and awesome.

I LOVED GW1, the lore and all. I love GW2 lore and all. I LOVE seeing things in GW2 that remind me instantly of events or places in GW1, they are all over. But I understand the passage of TIME. Some things fade. Some things get destroyed (Dredge are noted to at times purposefully target and destroy dwarven structures, relics, and other artifacts). Other things get buried (Statue of Dwayna, temple of ages, old LA).

Temple of Ages was basically ruins 250 years+ ago. In the middle of a swamp. It’s not SHOCKING for it to have basically been ‘consumed’ by the swamp.

I fail to see all these horrid retcons and GW2 cutting all ties to GW1. I may not know EVERY tiny bit of the kitten lore, but I know plenty of it. If they can keep things to basically being in the same kitten spot as they were in GW1, even same facing (Fort Koga, temple of grenth, etc)… what are the horrid changes? Magic system? 250 years. kitten changes. Magic by nature across almost all settings isn’t a constant “never changing” force. Hell, I find Anet often goes back and ties thing into a greater plot. IE, the nightmare dragon in the Sylvari intro may be referenced as a foreshadowing of Mordi’s power. (Maybe not planned, but it could turn into that). Zhizier and Shiro were turned into Abaddon’s agents (by being tricked into doing what he wanted) to explain why they did some things or why things happened.

I LOVE references to GW1. but it’s been 250 kitten years, possibly more depending on campaign (or less). A mystery back then is going to be a faint rumor now. A hero of that age will be a legend in a book now. (depending on hero and culture, Norn keep legendary heroes around in tale far longer then other races). historians get different views of events (Charr are perfect example, the stormcaller horn. Their version is far more bashing and there is a Charr historian there or in the ruins SPECIFICALLY trying to find evidence or facts to show a more accurate version of the battle), tales become twisted. Like Mega says, if something from Gw1 is shoved front a center, I want it to have a REASON, not simply to appease us Gw1 fans.

If Livia or Scepter of Orr appears, there better be a good reason for it.

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

Kalavier.1097:

LA is a city that is naturally hard to defend. You can’t build walls because of the layout of the land, cliffs and water etc. You can’t truly block of the enterances, because they need them open and easy to travel by trade. You can’t truly defend from the air without causing damage to the city…

^^^Had to cut a bit, not enough space.
(for full quote refer to earlier post)

Ok, first of all, LA is in good defensive position, its surounded by mountains and have only small enterance to sea which is protected by Claw island, from land and sea its a freaking bunker,

A: Those passes are narrow yes, and the Sea (Which it relies on Claw Island to stop invasions), HOWEVER, once they get past those chokepoints it is IMPOSSIBLE to hold the city without heavy fore-warning (Aka, what the orders did after Claw Island fell because they had advance warning). You have no way of completely blocking the enemy from approaches.

Also LA was attacked by other threats than Scarlet in the past, and even if they won anyone would think that if something happened once or more times it can happen again and yet LA council didnt do anything to improve defenses, *

Overconfidence. And often if one attack fails, the enemy doesn’t charge in again. A foolish mistake, but not completely unreasonable. Also when Scarlet attacked she had far less forces (as they saw it) then the force that attacked LA. Back then they just saw Aetherblades, not all three groups working together.

And once again, Scarlet wasn’t only LA problem, she was a threat to whole Tyria, and she had proven that by her earlier invasions on almost all of the maps, by that time PACT would have already prepered for her, especialy since Aetherblade stole some of the PACT Airships, and they are the only one that have any chance in fighting Scarlet’s army in the air, even more so that LA was unprotected from air attacks.
From her earlier world wide attacks, looking at the size of her army, anyone with half brain would figure out that LA have no chance in fighting Scarlet.

It takes a long time to mobilize and recall forces covering a nation worth of land, especially a semi-contested nation. By the time they would’ve gathered a force to retake LA, the battle would’ve been over (Scarlet taking it and Lionguard and orders counter attacking).

Also, Orders are a military organization themselfs and they are not part of LA just like PACT, and yet they were heavly involved in the LA defense, so why would PACT help be frown upon?

Btw, what do you mean by “occupying”, was PACT working with Scarlet? Order’s been helping during the invasion and they didnt have to occupy anything.

A: Orders respond post attack. If the Pact marched in BEFORE the attack and started setting up defenses/cannons, the people would get angry. It’d also place the precident (unwanted by other cities) of the Pact being able to march in and set up shop without any permission.
B: You misunderstand, the Pact wouldn’t be occupying. But if the bulk of Council doesn’t think Scarlet will attack again, then suddenly a decent sized military force marched in and set up shop, it’d look like a military occupation. A misguided viewpoint, but what the masses would think. Also alongside the “THE PACT MADE US A TARGET!” that could appear.

And yea, prepering and sending out reinforcements would take time BUT ONLY if PACT were unaware of Scarlet action. As i said she did a massive invasions throu the world on almost all maps, she even send out a huge flying weapon of mass destruction and it was long before invasion on LA, dont forget that we, the 2nd in command in PACT, were ther and we even had checked her lair and found out her plans of invasion on LA, are you trying to tell me that we had kept that important information away from the PACT?

And until the Attack on LA, where exactly was her forces? Hm? Nobody knew. You can’t deploy an army to take out a hostile force if you CANNOT find it, or even have a CLUE where it is. If we told Trahearne, and he went “Where is this hostile force?”
us: “Um…. uhhh….. we don’t know.”
Trahearne: “I can’t deploy a pact force if we don’t have a target.”

That + if he asked the Captain’s council about it and they said they don’t need his help, that’s basically telling him not to send an army or it’ll have negative results.

The problem being this. It takes TIME to recall and mobilize forces.

We aren’t talking about running across a small town/area and gathering your pals. We are talking about crossing a nation that isn’t 100% safe yet. And trying to contact airships and get them to return.

And then there is travel time for the airships (and troops if they can’t use the gates or waypoints).

By the time the battle was over, the Pact forces wouldn’t be there.

LA wasn’t the Pact’s greatest ally, resource, or the strongest bastion.

LA depended on Claw Island for defense against the Risen, without it LA is weak (and when Claw Island is bypassed, like Scarlet did, it falls easily). The Lionguard are weaker then any nation’s military force (smaller numbers for one).

The order forces helped out a lot. Techincally the “Pact” wasn’t involved aka, it’s heavy machines (tanks, airships, subs, golems, etc) or the leadership elements. The orders still deployed their forces around home.

If we sent Trahearne a report, then he asked the Captain’s Council and they told him “No thanks, we doubt she’ll attack again. If she does, the Lionguard will handle it.” He has no reason to start gathering an army. Yes, he trusts the player, but he’s not going to march an armed force into a city when the leadership told him they don’t need any help.

Doggie.3184:

Kiel was also using the destruction of Lion’s Arch to make bank off Waypoint prices. Those WPs used to cost nothing.

She’s a very shady character.

Kiel doesn’t operate the waypoint system. It’s automated by the Asura.

Note that now that the city is cleared of hostiles, they are free again (within city limits) :P

I think it’s one bad thing about the update. The lionguard at the Gendarran Fields and the one in the square treat you as a random passerby (Fitting for those who missed the event), but I feel like they should’ve had either A: Dialogue to point out you were in the battle (player to lionguard), or B: Lionguard starts their practiced lines, then notice who you are and correct themselves.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I get that in real life, if I get a broken leg, I won’t be standing on it really. But it isn’t like we saw the bone come out of his leg. As a Norn I don’t think it should be affecting him as much.

With one single post, you admit that having a broken leg is a big deal, and go on to say it can’t be that bad if the bone isn’t sticking out. I take it that you’ve lived a pretty safe life. Compound fractures are indeed bad, but even grown men can cry when their legs break.

OKAY.

We are talking about the Norn.

The same Norn that everyone argued with me about 2 weeks ago that they could face entire armies solo and still stand.

You’re telling me a broken leg is holding this. Norn back, and that, this is normal for a. Norn?

I do live a safe life. But I have had broken legs. It sucks. But this is a fantasy world where my Asura gets slashed in the face by a greatsword and bleeds a little.

Has a point there. It’s noted in the LORE, the better, stronger Norn? Can solo entire Charr warbands (EOTN era at least). Depending on warband, that could be anything from 4 to 10 charr at once.

5 Norn were able to handle their destroyer section, while Dwarves and humans brought an army.

Though it could be a question of how bad the break was, if there is some tech/magic part still involved (the explosion), and how much he’s been resting. I mean, afterwards he went back to fighting in the city. It could be he hasn’t given it time to fully heal yet, and that’s why he still has little pain bursts.

However, I’ll say I didn’t see it as him being weak, more of just discomfort at times.

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

The thing is that it doesn’t matter if LA would survive or not with defenses in place, thats not the point, what matter is that ther were none. Im not somekind of strategis or a general, i wasnt even in the army, and yet if i were to be attacked 3 times i would know that i need to be prepered for possible 4th attack, i think its common sense.

And whether LA wanted help or not is also beside the point, Scarlet was endangering whole Tyria, even if she didn’t aim to wake up dragons she had military potential to conquer lots of Tyria territories, she even had a weapon of mass destruction capable of killing anything one wide scale, PACT would intervene even if LA refused any aid, especialy seeing that LA lost the initial fight.

Also, Scarlet attacked many other area before invadeing LA, so threat of Scarlet’s army was not only LA problem.

LA is a city that is naturally hard to defend. You can’t build walls because of the layout of the land, cliffs and water etc. You can’t truly block of the enterances, because they need them open and easy to travel by trade. You can’t truly defend from the air without causing damage to the city.

LA has basically sat there with Claw Island delaying or defeating any true threat (The Risen mainly, by naval attack). Each attack was different.
A: Risen, delayed by Claw Island, repelled. Orders and Lionguard retake Claw Island and then the Pact forms and pushes the Risen back.
B: Karka, repelled by Lionguard, driven to Southsun and the ancient Karka defeated.
C: Aetherblade raid, defeated, their hideout destroyed and airship stolen for Lionguard.

Captain’s council may be foolish, but somewhat true in a second raid by Scarlet’s forces would be perhaps unlikely. Usually if one attack fails, you don’t attack again. The Massive air raid is a brand new tactic for GW universe.

If she had taken out LA, and nobody got close to defeating her, yes, perhaps the Pact would intervene. However, notice how the orders were heavily involved. Orders that can quickly relay a message to Fort trinity aka, Pact headquarters. They likely kept him updated and that’s how they learned of the connection (Laranthir mentions Priory researchers). The orders helped heavily and they make up the strength of the Pact, So in a sense at most they lacked the Pact’s heavy gear (Siege golems, cannons, airships), and leadership, but the military manpower was there.

Also, occupying LA would set negatives tones worldwide. Other capitals may become uneasy about the Pact simply marching in and setting up base without any permission.

AGAIN, it takes a while to mobilize an army, ESPECIALLY an army stretched out across a nation, busy fighting throughout the entire nation, and with airships scattered all over the region fighting dragon champions or other air threats. It’s not going to be quick and easy to recall forces, or make sure they have enough on the field to not loose ground, but enough pulled to make a difference. And then there is travel time. Unlike gameplay, I doubt you can run from Vigil Keep to LA in 10 minutes or less. Likewise, it probably would take anywhere from a day to several days to fly from Orr to LA. The way it’s implied is that Laranthir and crew arrived not long after the breachmaker exploded. And the battle with Scarlet likely wasn’t too long after her first assault on LA with Miasma. I doubt there WAS the time to mobilize the pact to respond to the invasion of LA.

Also, each nation’s military is likely stronger then the Lionguard. You know, on basis of being nations instead of a city and havens on trade posts. Bar Norn of course, but Norn don’t need armies. If they formed an army the enemy would be simply kittened.

Celtic Lady.3729:

I have to say that Evon’s personality is light-years better than Kiel’s. She seems so serious and dull by comparison. Gnashblade is often hilarious. Kiel couldn’t crack a joke if it was an egg and she sat on it.

I’ll take the serious one over the guy who stranded a Captain council member and a bunch of civilians, then went to publicly bash them and act as if he was the hero.

Oh, and basically implying if he wasn’t forced to help the lionguard, he’d leave them all to rot and hoard his merchandise instead of helping.

Oh, and after you kill scarlet, he’s directly an kitten to you.

Stormy Dragon.9210:

I think we ought to go show those Tengu kittens what happens to people who shoot defenseless refugees.

Who’s with me?

Brilliant, only problem is there is no evidence of them shooting defenseless refugees, only Scarlet alliance forced and the idiotic adventurers who charged the wall.

DarksunG.9537:

PeterThomas.7243:

..Braham, Rox, Marjory, Kasmeer and Taimi are great characters….

Carighan.6758:

the romance between Kas and Jory was quite well-written

Um…huh? Everyone has an opinion I suppose, but the characters & story in GW2 (especially the LS) is such a disaster it’s taken a game with a lore I loved & obliterated it with extreme prejudice.

I find it amusing to link “You can have your opinion, but it sucks completely.”

IMO, Gw2 hasn’t done terrible with the lore, and the characters are decent. Maybe not the best, maybe could use improvements in certain areas, but decent.

Again, an army and airships sitting in LA would be viewed badly. Especially if they aren’t going anywhere.

The realistic viewpoint is, the Pact leadership and forces directly under them wasn’t involved. The orders however, were heavily involved.

Also, it takes TIME to Mobilize armies. It’d take long to contact the various airships around all of Orr and tell them to return to base. Likewise, dragon champions such as Tequatl are still active and airships being pulled makes ground forces weak toward air strikes.

Then, when the Pact is ready to move, they have to march/fly to LA, which takes even longer. By the time the Pact was underway, the battle for LA could’ve been over.

There is a hairstyle similar to Scarlet’s. It has lettuce looking ‘pigtails’ instead of whatever Scarlet had.

Shiren.9532:

Evon’s not a warrior, he’s a citizen. No-one would have to risk their lives if Lion’s Arch had listened to him in the first place. Kiel actually did run until the miasma cleared up, for the first two weeks she let everyone else do everything while she was safe in her air ship.

As far as putting down Evon goes, the new black market plot in Brisban could easily tie in with him and the Consortium. Given the way the writers are positioning the audience more and more against Evon, I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned out to be the next villain.

A: The council stonewalled Kiel. She was trying the exact same thing (Probably with Magnus helping her).
B: Anti Air guns would’ve brought airships down onto LA. See what happened to the breachmaker? Imagine that with a fleet of airships crashing at same time.