Guild Wars 2

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Sorely disappointed

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2zb4xj/datamining_revenant_weapon_skills/

I was hoping at the very, very least to have a Dual Sword and GS option.

I’m going to hold my breath for the Specialization to come, but I just lost a lot of personal hope for the profession now.

there Specialization is Dagger pal.

Wiz.1543:

I hear rumors from PAX East new weapons will be:

Rumors:

• Engineer – Hammer
• Mesmer – Shield
• Ranger – Staff
• Necro – Greatsword
• Thief – Rifle
• Guardian – An bow
• Elementlist – Sword
  *Revenant – Dagger

Made some changes

Bluefox.9580:

“Chop” actually makes me think axe.

knifes can chop

Just a flesh wound.3589:

From reditt: datamined skills http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2zb4xj/datamining_revenant_weapon_skills/

Revenant
Off hand: Axe, dagger, shield
Main hand: Mace, sword
Both hands: Hammer, staff

Elementalist
Main hand : Sword

YES THANKS!! finally I know what skins to shop for…

Arthxaiz.5947:

Simply put the population on all the servers is either “Very High” or Full. Pretty soon we won’t be queing for BLs but queing to get in game lol.

Add 3 servers problems solved.

Bleep No!!! that would ruin WvW even more. How about you all come to servers that need population like Crystal Desert for example…

Cool, now roll it bro

lordhelmos.7623:

For use in your specialization theory crafting:

Sword= R,W,T,M,G, = 5
Shield= G,W,En,M* = 3 + 1 special
Dagger= R,T,N,E = 4
Axe= W,R,N,Rv = 4
Shortbow= R,T = 2
Longbow= W,R = 2
Staff= E,M,G,N,R* = 5 + 1 special
Greatsword= W,G,M,R,N* = 5 + 1 special
Pistol= M,T,En = 3
Rifle= W,En = 2
Scepter= G,E,M,N = 4
Focus= M,N,E,G = 4
Mace= G,W,Rv = 3
Hammer= G,W,Rv,En* = 3 + 1 special
Torch= M,R,G = 3

For staff you left off Revenant. they can use Staffs as well.

Also Revenant can use Swords.

Valento.9852:

This actually works a lot like mana! You have a recharge+resource cost, this resource is capped at a value (in this case 100), so you have to manage cooldown+resource cost. Even the regeneration over time exists in many MMOs, making this resource style not new in any sense. You have an example of resource deplete from mana shields from oldschool MMOs – a shield that protects the user from damage while depleting mana instead of HP.

In short, this is: heavy armor mid-melee range class with cooldowns+resource regeneration+resource degeneration mechanics, and its uniqueness that is legend-dependant utility skills, having a cooldown and reseting current resource amount to 50%. Partly new, partly old, and cool nonetheless, but worth noticing how comparable it is to other MMOs’ classes.

No Energy is closer to Energy from other MMOs. Mainly WoW. a Rogue in Vanilla WoW used Energy not mana, and it was fast regen unlike Mana.
Yes this fits Energy of a Rogue more than Mana of a Mage.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Imho considering the fact that every class gets new utility type with specializations, its possible we will get another legend. We have 3 good, 2 bad. Who could that be?

The ones that was datamined are created to base class as we dont see anything datamined related to specializations yet.

Keep in mind, we don’t even know if the Revenent’s specialization will use legends, or energy system, since mechanic change they said..

Sorean.5379:

What actually Ventari does? Did we even see him fighting?
My guess would be a support legend.

Sound like a Support Legend. Slyvari race was created because of him, and we know Slyvari Racials deal more closer with Healing magic and ranger/Druid like connections…

So good idea that he will be Support Legend.

abbetd.5912:

Halvorn.9831:

Apart from a few new animations: what would 2H axe add to the game that isn’t already there? I mean, do you see a missing mechanic due to 2H axes not being implemented?

I’d use a 2h axe if it were available just cause they look cool. No other reason, purely cosmetic. Don’t really think devs should waste any time implementing them though.

Don’t forget that weapons get skills along with them. So it’s not just for look.

2 hander axe would function differently from a hammer or great sword.

That guy has a Scepter Main hand and Dagger off hand.
Is he wearing adventure armor?

That guy has a Scepter Main hand and Dagger off hand.
Is he wearing adventure armor?

Is Anet Art team trolling again?

Because I notice he doesnt do anything other than run around.

Berelious.3290:

Here’s a theory as to why a build saver isn’t feasible, or at the very least difficult. Builds in this game aren’t based just on your chosen traits, but also on at least 12-14 pieces of gear (armor/weapons/trinkets) and associated utility skills. Assuming you’re even willing to carry half a bag’s worth of extra gear in your inventory, coming up with a mechanic that switches all that around with a click or two when out of combat seems like it would be difficult in the extreme.

Wow and Rift both do that. Thats standard now.

Whats some mobile Build saving apps?

OP makes a strong point. Woukd be interested in reading the developer’s response to the OP.

aspirine.6852:

If you whine enough as pve player you get what you want.

I been whining about WvW for a whike now and we only get one new borderland map and no fixes to server population.

Why no build saver once again?
HoT would have been the perfect time for this feature to get added to the game. But it’s still not going to happen. Why?

Discussion of speculation regarding how the Revenant class mechanic will change when the Revenant changes into their specialization.

What’s some ideas you have for the change?

Whats your advice on the choice between the two?

A new expensive Skin Item, or a Legendary weapon?

I have no legendaries currently.

But I want the chain saw skin.

Which should I dump my gold into between the two?

I want that Royal Risen Guard from the personal story that fly with the wings in “Source of Orr”…

That would be a cool Minion to have.

Whats your thoughts on this?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Risen_Royal_Guard

but with Weapons in their hands like in the instance…

Based on those photos, will Revenants also get stances?

what changes is the OP talking about?

For the Revenant, how would you like to see the support role handled?

Want strong support like a guardian, or weak support like a thief?

thoughts?

What this person have to do with GW2?

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

So a very very cool armor set from the lore of GW2 is added to the game, the armor of one of the gods… and it’s in the gem store AND it’s an outfit.

Thanks for ruining this, ANet.

How they ruin it? All classes can wear it due to it being an outfit.

I went to the gem store and this not there.. When this coming?

Are two hander Axe weapons banned in China?

In your opinion, does Combos/Fields require skill?

Because there isnt any content in the game that requires proper combo/field use in the game.

I hate the Leveling experience in this game. its not fun. I have more fun as a max level, because I dont have restrictions on how I want to play.

Forcing us to go through this boring leveling again will be killer.

SnubdubLuskon.1795:

Knighthonor.4061:

SnubdubLuskon.1795:

Knighthonor.4061:

Dude whatever. They showed it in the Reveal trailer. Its going to be a melee staff. That wasnt concept art either. It was actual gameplay. Staffs and Spears and Tridents have similar models. But developers have told us already that we not getting sea weapons on land. So its a staff. No other weapon looks like that on land.

I’ll take creative liberties for 100, Alex.
Just because it’s in the trailer doesn’t mean it’s in game or available to players (Rytlock’s pistol is proof of that).

rytlock using a pistol has nothing to do with a class reveal for an expansion. He used a Staff in the class reveal trailer. Thats much different from just any other lore NPC in a trailer.

There was also spears, which is what got people excited in the first place, and again — they were creative liberties. Next you’ll be falsely telling people that they get to turn into mist and one shot four enemies like Rytlock did in the trailer too.

Dude those wasnt spears. They were staffs with pointed skins. The developers explained that they were not Spears. They are staffs. And Rytlock in the Revenant Reveal trailer was showing the world the class for the first time. Vanilla Rytlock was just a lore hero npc. Nothing more.

Like i said, the Reveal trailer was real action, not CG or hand draw concept art or anything like that. But was actual gameplay footage of the new class.

SnubdubLuskon.1795:

Knighthonor.4061:

Dude whatever. They showed it in the Reveal trailer. Its going to be a melee staff. That wasnt concept art either. It was actual gameplay. Staffs and Spears and Tridents have similar models. But developers have told us already that we not getting sea weapons on land. So its a staff. No other weapon looks like that on land.

I’ll take creative liberties for 100, Alex.
Just because it’s in the trailer doesn’t mean it’s in game or available to players (Rytlock’s pistol is proof of that).

rytlock using a pistol has nothing to do with a class reveal for an expansion. He used a Staff in the class reveal trailer. Thats much different from just any other lore NPC in a trailer.

Nephziel.6053:

Knighthonor.4061:

Duke Nukem.6783:

there was talk of spears on land in the expansion, is this happening? i want to phalanx!

No. Revenant is getting Melee staves.
Role play it as a Polearm.

hopefully another class also gets melee staves as specialization.

This claim has no proof.

Once people were told there won’t be spears on land they ASSUMED the weapon in the trailer was a melee staff. This hasn’t been mentioned or confirmed by a single developer. Which makes it a FORUM THEORY and those are quite inaccurate

Single swap professions so far didn’t have big pool of weapons to pick from.
I doubt Revenant will be different.

I am more inclined to belive there will be Sword/Dagger because in the very first PoI stream a Sylvari named Pop was using those.

Dude whatever. They showed it in the Reveal trailer. Its going to be a melee staff. That wasnt concept art either. It was actual gameplay. Staffs and Spears and Tridents have similar models. But developers have told us already that we not getting sea weapons on land. So its a staff. No other weapon looks like that on land.

Panites.6798:

The problem is see in this thread is the of peoples opinions. Sure you can have them but no every opinion is correct. GW2 has no hard/hardcore content as it is made for the a casual player to be on the same level as a regular constant player.

Its fashion wars 2, not raid wars 2. You simply cannot have hard, challenging and time consuming content without a good reward. In this case, the regular player base would do these raids while those who enjoy being casual would be at a disadvantage.

GW2 rewards are mostly based on RNG luck to get a shiny weapon, if it were to reward you with a better armor/weapon at the end of a 1+ hour raid that gave you 25% more stats than what the casual players had, there would be an uproar. Creating an even more elitist community where the new players would have to spend a year just to catch up to the elitists and the casuals would just quit.

WvW would be dominated by elite PvErs and then they wouldn’t play PvP because they don’t keep their gear they spent weeks on to farm for.
This is the dilemma. Make a game where the highest stats only give you roughly 5% increase while a casual player can feel like they can compete at the same level OR, make a game you have to farm for hours to get items that give you a significant advantage over other players ie. WoW PvP.

This is what ‘holy trinity’ end game is focused on. You need a party to do hard content when they all fulfill their roles and WANT to play it.

I have played a healer in every mmo that has one, and usually get treated two different ways. Abused for not keeping a self righteous dps’er alive or no communication. You hardly ever get a thanks when puging. Im used to it but it severely impacts new players.

I haven’t found a study or a poll on DPS characters to tank/healers but my guess is its roughly 40%.
Newer games like Tera, Rift, Black Desert etc all have healers/tankers but they do a significant amount of damage these days so they are in theory a hybrid and not part of a trinity until someone tries to force them into the role.

Not healthy for any game.

I dont see why we cant have both. Casual Trinity Raid Dungeons and Hardcore Trinity Raid Dungeons.

i simply enjoy both Trinity and Raid Dungeons. Doesnt mean i am not also casual player.

Duke Nukem.6783:

there was talk of spears on land in the expansion, is this happening? i want to phalanx!

No. Revenant is getting Melee staves.
Role play it as a Polearm.

hopefully another class also gets melee staves as specialization.

Andred.1087:

thefantasticg.3984:

Why not wait until seeing the complete class before making such a suggestion?

This.

OP, you are telling the developers, who have designed and built this class from the ground up, what you think might be a problem with it. Do you really think they haven’t thought of this?

Isnt that the point of betas? So people can tell developers about things they may have missed or didnt think about?

KngGilgamesh.3481:

Knighthonor.4061:

I never said there was no AI manipulation in trinity games, i said that the AI in trinity games are far more challenging than Non-Trinity mmos. EQ being the first Trinity mmo proves my point as well.

The argument i seen has been that AI in trinity mmos are just dumb. But i have shown that the Trinity Mob AI is more advanced than we see in Non-Trinity mmos. People used the argument of predictability, which is proven that in GW2 the mobs are more predictable.

Also somebody argued that trinity mmos are easier, but this is disproven by the fact that Trinity PvE in mmos like WoW and Rift, is far more challenging than anything we have in Non-Trinity mmos like GW2. No argument there.

i will repeat. Trinity/Non-Trinity, they both have mobs that are not Terminator smart, but trinity AI is still the lesser of the dumb two.

If that is so then why do you think that is? What makes Trinity AI better and how?

Because all mmo games have Aggro tables. In trinity games the Aggro table is used by the designers to improve group roles. So the AI is built for the Roles that we play.

In non trinity games the NPC have to be balanced in a way that makes it so they are predictable due to the random variable which is the Class/Spec that is attacking it/on its aggro chart. So that mob has to be balanced to fight a Warrior the same as they would that glassy mage.
In trinity the AI, being built around a system, can be designed to categorize groups of players on the fly and address a group of players with some kind of organization built for challenge.

I never said there was no AI manipulation in trinity games, i said that the AI in trinity games are far more challenging than Non-Trinity mmos. EQ being the first Trinity mmo proves my point as well.

The argument i seen has been that AI in trinity mmos are just dumb. But i have shown that the Trinity Mob AI is more advanced than we see in Non-Trinity mmos. People used the argument of predictability, which is proven that in GW2 the mobs are more predictable.

Also somebody argued that trinity mmos are easier, but this is disproven by the fact that Trinity PvE in mmos like WoW and Rift, is far more challenging than anything we have in Non-Trinity mmos like GW2. No argument there.

i will repeat. Trinity/Non-Trinity, they both have mobs that are not Terminator smart, but trinity AI is still the lesser of the dumb two.

[quote=4869502;Jerus.4350:]

notebene.3190:

Knighthonor.4061:

that all being said, AI in trinity games like Rift and WoW, still are far more challenging than any Mob AI in GW2.

In fact i would go as far as to say that Mob AI is more predictable in Non-Trinity MMO PvE than it is in Trinity PvE. We see a clear example of this by looking at GW2’s PvE content. The Bosses are very predictable, and the Mob AI is easy to exploit, which is the reason the glass cannon Zerker has been the PvE meta all along. GW2 Pretty much proves my point. ???

If that is all true, then why wouldn’t you want to go play those? Rift is only 4 years old, this is coming up on 3? It’s a very good game, I played for about 10 months or so. Even FFXIV bent to the will of the military industrial “we must have jobs!” crowd that were irritated with the clkitten, mix-n-match, UO-style ‘throw together and wear whatever you want’ types, and the managed to move that away from a more organic game to a rigid one in ARR.

Isn’t that the whole reason there are lots of different games, so everyone can find one that fits their play style the closest?

I’m assuming this is all just a rhetorical discussion of whether a trinity leads to more challenging AI, and not a literal call to change the game, even if it alienates myself and many other people that have grown to love a trinity-less type game? Especially when there are AAA titles that have that already which are very good games and not very old? I even think SWTOR fits that bill, no?

There’s always PvP? See how challenging that AI is? Fairly unpredictable?

You are deflecting now instead of addressing the debate. Thats somewhat trollish imo. Instead of doing that, how about you stick to the topic of debate which is trinity in regards GW2 improvement?

maddoctor.2738:

Knighthonor.4061:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

There is very limited AI in aggro based games. Mobs just attack and follow the character on top of their list, a list that is manipulated by directly using skills (and is even visible on lots of those games with addons).

The same can be said about heavy scripted encounters, like most (if not all) MMORPG Raid bosses with specific phases (at 90% do this, at 60% do that, at 25% kill everyone etc) The AI in most MMORPGs is like that because players like “learning” encounters, memorize them and defeat them. If an element of real intelligence is added, it will make encounters unpredictable.

The best AI is the AI that surprises the players with unexpected moves, the best AI is the AI that has hidden patterns and takes decisions on the fly to change tactics. But that same type of AI maybe isn’t appropriate for most MMORPGs.

Do we want encounters you can beat with enough trial and error / practice / memorizing of patterns or we want encounters to be all about skill to face the unpredictable? I’m not sure MMORPG players want random elements in their bosses

Non Trinity AIs have the potential to be great if made properly. Trinity AI is almost non-existent, it’s only about manipulating aggro bars.

that all being said, AI in trinity games like Rift and WoW, still are far more challenging than any Mob AI in GW2.

In fact i would go as far as to say that Mob AI is more predictable in Non-Trinity MMO PvE than it is in Trinity PvE. We see a clear example of this by looking at GW2’s PvE content. The Bosses are very predictable, and the Mob AI is easy to exploit, which is the reason the glass cannon Zerker has been the PvE meta all along. GW2 Pretty much proves my point. ???

Jerus.4350:

Knighthonor.4061:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

Considering the tricks I used to do in my old trinity games, I’d say the Non-Trinity, though it has nothing to do with trinity/no trinity but simply the games design quality.

well going off the statements some of you all made in this thread, some of you have said that GW2 Dungeon mob AI gets exploited all the time. But i have never seen that degree of AI explotation in a Trinity game like WoW or Rift… so it would seem that the Trinity AI although not Terminator smart, is still superior to the the Non-Trinity Mob AI found in GW2.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

I would like it to become a powerful support ability. I like playing support.

how to make kit engineer work in structured PvP?

I keep getting pwned. I lack defense and heals are weak. And my damage is pretty much weak 1v1.

The only success i found was when i had somebody in the front line as a tank to destract enemy teams while my kits blast/condition them down while providing support. But if enemy focus fires on me, i am history.

i must be doing something wrong. Fill me in.

darkprecure.6129:

Knighthonor.4061:

Mesmer is so weak that it shouldn’t be discussed on the forum.

Are you serious?

What you think?

Dondagora.9645:

Linken.6345:

seeing how only medium have it now I dont see a reason a heavy should get it thief/ranger maybe if a light had it they could give it to a heavy to even it out but they dont

Mesmer.

Mesmer is so weak that it shouldn’t be discussed on the forum.

warbignime.4610:

Rasimir.6239:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Reintroduce the holy trinity, but make it so that every class/profession can fill in every trinity role in their own way if they are specced for it.

There’s a recent game out there that works just like this, to the point where every class can even use every weapon and every armor skill. Theoretically, you should be able to fill every role with every class. Practically, classes are pretty much pigeon-holed into one of the roles, since the ways each class can tank/heal are vastly different and the large majority of players can’t deal with it.

It’s not much differend than the “zerker problem” some people see in GW2: if you want different classes to fulfill the same roles, you need people to adjust to the different playstyles of the classes. Most people can’t handle that, thus there’s a specific class combination considered “meta” and only the best actually understand enough of the system to be able to play with other group set-ups, because they understand that there’s more to it than just doing damage the same old way every fight.

I’m with the people saying that GW2 with trinity would be no more than just another generic MMO out there. Trinity takes the responsibility of adjusting to everybody’s build/playstyle away for a large part by letting people concentrate on a single aspect of the fight (damage, tanking, healing) and keeps most people from taking in the whole picture, thus making just a few class/role combinations really viable, no matter how many the game theoretically offered.

I used to play a trinity MMO with two tank and two healing classes, one each mainly reactive, the other mostly proactive. You could easily do all content with either class, but you’d be surprised at how little people were actually able to do it. Even many of the good (not best) raids were unable to substitute one class for the other, because they couldn’t adjust their strategies to the different playstyles the classes required. There are a ton of people out there thinking they are good at this type of game but effectively just following strategies they’ve seen on youtube without really understanding them, and those will fail when faced with different abilities that don’t work with their prefered strategies.

Currently, it’s fairly easy to include everyone because pretty much every class has ways to help out the rest, or at least be self-sufficient. A dungeon or fractal with five self-sufficient players playing alongside each other may not be the most fun, but it’s something most people can do. Specialized roles are possible, but the degree of specialization varies from group to group. Forced specialization (as in trinity roles) massivly restricts the flexibility of the combat system we have now. I seriously doubt this would lead to a rise in popularity of the game, since there are a lot more games out the it would have to rival with.

Well it all go backs to Zerker problem, as bad as holy trinity is, it is still way better than all zerker.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/286958/page/2

People please read this thread. this been discussed and this outcome was explained pre-vanilla-Beta.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/286958/page/2

5 Years ago!

Two Handers:
Staff
Hammer
Short Bow

Gaaroth.2567:

i believe legends won’t cost SP, like do not adrenaline skills, steal, attunements, toolbelt skills, shatters, pet skills, virtues or death shroud skills.

I belive heal and elite will be even’d out and utilities will follow tier 1>2>3 costs like now

But heals and Elites are also part of the legends.