Guild Wars 2

agree..
When I play the thief, it seems OP to the others

well the way I put it down, it will reward servers at the end of the week by giving back to people all the gold saved plus an incentive for winning the match up… and how is it possible to not spend al the gold from the “Server Bank”? well simply defending upgraded stuffs so it’s not necessary to upgrade again once lost.
it will simply incentive people in defending stuffs and winning and since it’s everyone’s gold that is going to be spent I hope everyone would be personally involved.

The problem now is that so few people spend money on upgrade but they need many for keeping safe their upgraded stuffs.. and people that don’t spend their gold usually tend to not care much.

I also think that removing at all the upgrading cost would be a bad idea, we need some kind of gold sink, only we don’t need that just few people spend their gold for the benefit of many people.
An upgraded keep will benefit all

Well of course I have shared some ideas. We all agree that the current state of WvW upgrade is wrong, I hope A-Net will take a lot from different ideas and will make some changes.

Hello there, I just want to add my thoughts:

- First of all I think that since siege blueprints can be bought in 2 different ways:
by gold or by badge

Also for upgrades there should be a choice between gold and badges.
This change in my opinion would let more people to start an upgrade than now.

- Second thing, and here I will steal a nice idea I have read from someone else in this forum, I think it could be very interesting to find a way to let more people to pay for the upgrades since every upgrade in wvw will benefit everyoine so it’s ok if everyone pays for it.

A simple way for achieving this would be to add a small tax for everyone that joins WvW. Keep reading please before starting to flame me

I think this small tax should be payed once a day, only for people that enters in a WvW map.
It should be something like 20\30 silver per day, that is not something realy hard to afford for everyone.
The gold from this tax will be accumulate in a “Server Bank”.

Then every time someone will start an upgrade, he will automatically use the gold on the Server Bank, that comes from everyone playing WvW and so everyone will be also encouraged in defending upgraded keeps for not wasting its own gold.

Now there are 2 cases that may occur:

1-The gold in the Server Bank will run out soon:
in this case everyone that wants to upgrade a keep once there is no gold left in the bank, will automatically use his own gold (exactly how it is now), with the exception that the day after the bank will be filled again with new gold from people entering WvW the next day.

2-The second case will occure when one server doesn’t use all the gold in the Server Bank till the end of the week.
In this case the gold left will be redistributed to all the people that joined WvW during the Whole week and for that reason payed the tax. Of course it won’t be the full amount of gold they payed but at least it will be some incentive.

If this system would ever be utilized by A-Net, well then it could also be possible to give back the gold to the three servers according to their position at the end of the week.

I mean the first server could be rewarded with the double of the gold left in the bank at the end of the week, while the second and third server could only be rewarded with the exact amount of gold left, obviously in any case the amount will be divided by the number of people that joined WvW during the whole week.

I left on purpose the second and third server having back the same amount of gold left in their respective banks for one reason. I think that only in this way, without making any difference for second and third spot, it will allow both servers to fight for the first spot and not viceversa.

Well just quit this game, there’s plenty of better games than GW2 out there.. or not?
A-Net won’t ever change the game with the things you’re asking, never!!!
So do yourself a favour and stop playing this crappy, unbalanced, Perma stealth friendly, thief wars 2 and you will surely feel better…
and we won’t see any difference once you’re gone..

eldain stenlund.4306:

How can you justify a light armor class having the same armor defense as one using heavy armor… ??

a thief having the same armor of a warrior will surely end in the warrior having a much higher damage of the thief.
I hope I don’t have to explain to you that a thief will sacrifice a lot of damage for thoughtness, do I?
By the way if you prefer games where healers could save your butt while you just was smashing buttons and dealing damage, well it’s plenty of those game out there. GW2 is different, l2p or leave.

eldain stenlund.4306:

Exactly what you say here…
“This is not the game where warriors can tank better than any other class”

So why do we even have heavy armor.. if there is no difference…

LOL mate, why do you read only the first part of my statement?
I also said “…and at the same time outdps every other class while standing right in the same place for the Whole fight, having a dedicated healer covering their butts”.
If you think that you can simply tank in this game without doing anything else, just standing under the protection of your armor, well you’re terribily wrong.
In this game there are a lot of ways to avoid dmg: dodge, invulnerability, blocks, while vitality and thoughness can help to mitigate it.
The advantage of the warrior is that he can start from an higher value in those stats but without dedicated healers if you think you can just survive without using anything else, you’re wrong!!
The difference between a good and a bad player is only here: a good player knows when and how to use his skills for avoiding the dmg, a bad player will stand there pressing buttons without any logic.
And you man still belong to the bad players side.
Only when you will learn how to properly counter thieves, you will understand what me and many other people here are trying to tell you.
And if you didn’t notice I left out Stealth abilites from the avoiding damage abilities, because going stealth doesn’t mean avoiding damage at all!!!
think about it

Man quit the game please because obviously this is not the game for you or just you can go out there with a thief and try to kill a lvl 80 warrior that actually uses some brain… then come here and ask for a warrior nerf!!!
This is not the game where warriors can tank better than any other class and at the same time outdps every other class while standing right in the same place for the Whole fight, having a dedicated healer covering their butts.

eldain please you don’t have any credibility without proofs.
You’re saying 1 thief is able to down 1 people inside a Group of 4\5 people? well this is seriously a l2p issue mate and probably this person had a GC build and was uplevelled too.
Are you saying that “permastealth” thieves are favored in every possible way and this is the true?
Realy? This is your “true”, don’t act like your true is the one and only true.

I realy feel bored of repeating the same exact things that thieves are repeating from the very beginning of this game: JUST CC the thief, Daze him when you see the black powder red circle and the thief is almost done. He has just wasted 6 initiative and the possibility to stealth!!!

OMG You were 4\5 people against 1 thief !!! it’s not that hard if 2 or 3 of you keep alternating CC while the other 2 keep the pressure on the thief with damaging skills till he is dead. Daze it Daze it Daze it!!!! Stun it Stun it Stun it!!! Stop coming here and admitting that you lost 5vs1 against a thief. You are insulting yourself with those statements.

ok and now let’s go to the next “Thief is OP” thread

I agree on some points but I won’t put on the same table Guardians, Rangers and Elementalists with Thieves regarding tPvP at least. Thieves healing capabilities are much weaker than Guardians or Eles or Rangers Regeneration.

if you didn’t notice, the game is already easy mode and having only 3\4 traits good among 12 doesn’t help in making this game harder. The choice is so obvious.

ahuba*

you’re saying exactly what I mean. There’s a huge number of awful traits in game that no one cares about. Exactly!!
That’s why I suggest, instead of leaving those traits in their current state, to delete them and give their effect to other less used traits or other less used weapon skill or even utiities.
I think A-Net should reduce the overall number of traits from 12 to 9 just because is worthless having so many traits that no one uses,
BUT if they are able to fix all these traits in a proper and short time, well I don’t mind if they stay with 12 or even they add new traits in the game.
I just don’t get the reason of making many and many new useless traits just for telling us we have a lot of choices to do., when in reality we don’t.

I also agree that 5 15 and 25 trait should have to be choosen, it would be a nice change, but of course the choice should be between equal traits or we will end with all people using the same as always.

I would add also the ranger healing spring on the nerf train cos that seems a much more OP heal..
but this is only 1 point of view among many

mmm, well I have never said I want to have all classes or one class with all the same abilities.
I also like to have different builds that can do different things.
The problem as it is now is that there are not many different specs for every class.. at least not many specs that are worth it using over the usuals.
That’s the reason why you will see over the 90% of ranger in tPvP using Beast Master with the same exact utility and traits. At the best there will be only some minor changes from build to build.
That’s not cos people don’t know how to build something new on their own and instead are only able to copy\paste from the Fotm build, it’s more cos every other build sucks compared to this one, every other trait choice is less effective at doing the job than the usual one. Same can be said for thieves, guardians, elementalists, engineers.
The problem is that in the current unbalanced state of the game we are seeing all the same builds, and only once things will be eventually balanced out, we will start to see different builds around.
Thanks for sharing you POW tho.

Daecollo.9578:

All traits should be good, traits should be a hard choice picking them.

We should also be able to choose our 5/15/25 traits as well, these are what breaks most builds from working since they only benefit one thing.

Simplifying it won’t do anything, I think it needs to be more complex.

Well it seems that both of us agree that traits in the current state need a rework.
Actually there are only 5\6 out of 12 traits on every line that are worth it using while the others are left back.
We only have 2 different points of view on how to fix this:
I am suggesting to simplify things, while you are suggesting to add complexity and make the trait choice harder.
While I could agree with you, I also know that complexity is very hard to balance and we know how long it takes for A-Net to balance things, that’s why I am aiming to the other way.
I also think that before wasting time on adding new and complicated things that eventually will require more time to balance out, A-Net should rework the already existing traits and only then should start adding new things.
When the game was released 10 months ago, there were only 10 trait per line if I remember well, then A-Net added 2 more traits on every line for a total of 12.
The problem is that many of those traits that were added later, seems to be there just to fill that spot but there is a bad design behind them.
In the end I don’t mind if A-Net would follow the more complexity path or the more semplicity way to fix the problem, I just want to see more balance between traits and a lot of different balanced builds .

Anyone else thinks that the traits number should be reduced or some of them just reworked?

It’s clear to me that for every class, some trait are there just as a filler. I won’t list here every trait that seems useless to me or have a bad design compared to the others in the same tier, it’s not my job but it’s obvious that some trait are too good and must be taken over the others and this will end in having similar spec for every class and will reduce the available builds for pvp, pve or wvw.

I just wanna share my idea:
I think that every trait line should be reduced from 12 to 9 traits. There is no point in having all these traits that no one ever use.
I think that the less used traits should be mixed together or their effect should be transferred to other traits (minor or major ones) or even to some specific weapon skills that are less used.
Also I would like to split those 9 traits in this way:
3 in the Adept tier , 3 for the Master tier and 3 Grandmaster (of course the 3 on the Grandmaster tier should be the best traits on that specific trait line, so that everyone can only choose one of those).

In the end I prefer to have less traits (9) but well balanced than having more traits (12) where only 3\4 per line are realy usefull while the others seems to be there just for filling a spot. Also having less traits around which balancing the game could be better and easier to balance.

Regarding utility skills I would also remove some of them, I think that 3 utilities per type should be enaugh, instead of having 4 utilities per type.
I also think that the effects of some less used utilities should be mixed together in 1 stronger utility.
I also would like to see removed from the game all the sigils that give 25% passive speed and I would like to see swiftness nerfed to +25% speed from 33%.

Share your opinions.

lol do you realy need macros in a game with 10\15 skills to the fullest? \facepalm

The problem with thieves is that our “in-stealth” abilities are by far stronger than our “out of stealth” abilities..

1- raise our base stealth duration to 4 secs (5 when traited)
2- then add the 3 seconds revealed debuff anytime a thief goes out of stealth (3 seconds also for tPvP) even when the thief do not attack anything

this would prevent us from chain stealth abilities without any attack (aka perma stealth) that is the main reason for all those whining in WvW

3- then if we could have some rework on our “out of stealth” combat it could be nice for seeing more builds that do not rely on stealth exclusively.

At the moment we see just 2 kind of thieves spec around:
d\p hiders and s\d dodgers (there are few exceptions of course), and in WvW d\p hiders is far better than dodgers spec just because of stealth chain.
Remove the stealth chain and you will see far less d\p spec around.

4- also remove from WvW all mobs, with the exception of Champions, kraits, ogres, arpies and thos kind of mobs. But just remove every other mob so that thieves cannot anymore stealth on stupid AI using C&D and they actually need to hit other players properly

it’s not bugged.
it works perfectly, just it shares cooldown with every on swap and on crit% sigils

Yeah of course, that map should be fixed a bit for being utilized as a team Death match map, but my point was that developers surely put a lot of time and effort on making such a good map for a pve event., and in the meanwhile they do not have time to add more game modes to pvp as everyone else would like to see.
We are stuck with this Conquer&Hold system for 10 months now. When I saw that map I was very disappointed cos they have the resources for making good things but they just don’t do anything new.

As title says…
I do not understand why is so hard to add new game modes to sPvP and then I see that for your PvE event you just made a well designed map that could be very nice to have in a Team Death Match game mode.
I hope you will think about it

Rising Dusk.2408:

Balance patch is at the end of June. Cry more in the meantime, though; it improves the experience for everyone.

the end of june of 2014 is a more accurate date. But we will talk again in 19 days.. and I am not crying, just noting which are A-Net’s priorities as always

Necromancer:
•Parasitic Bond: •The healing from this trait will now display properly in the combat log.

•Reaper’s Might: •Removed misleading text.

Ranger:
•Coral Shot: •This ability now lists bleeding dealt at different ranges.

•Signet of the Hunt: •This ability now displays a skill fact for the damage increase of its active effect.

•Quicksand with Stone Spirit: •This skill’s facts will now display properly.

Warrior:
•Counterblow: •This skill now has a range fact.

•Endure Pain: •Updated the text of this skill and its buff to make it clearer.

Mesmer:
•Blurred Frenzy: •Updated the duration tooltip to indicate the actual duration of the evasion.

We couldn’t realy play with all the previous bugs now the game is more balanced of course

Cool Idea, but I don’t see A-Net implementing something like this anytime soon. They are having issues in balancing things like they are now and it’s not a good idea to add new things that will eventually need to be balanced out.

why not having both?

I was not saying Warriors and Necros are underpowered compared to the Others, I have faced a lot of very good players on both sides.
Just saying that thief is no way the only class that can survive from their mistakes, every other class has tools for not dieing even when they play bad, only Necro and Warriors from my point of view still lack something.
Warriors require to be played perfectly or you’re dead and Necros still lack mobility in WvW for escape from bad situations

Engels.8537:

Zumy.6318:

Yesterday I got jumped by two berserkerthieves in WvW.
I downed 1, SR -> Ress -> 2x Basivenom and as soon as I was under 50% hp, they Heartseekered me to death.

I could cry about this. Or I could think about what happened.

I knew there were 2 Zerkerthieves and after downing one it was me who decided to stay near the Shadow Refuge. It was me who decided to fight near their Blind and Stunspamming NPCs and it was me who only played with one stunbreaker.
It was also me who was to lazy to change condiremove against Iniregen on Stealth before re-engaging.

I made 4 fatal errors and that got me killed in PvP.

I moved on and so should everone else.

Yep pretty sure all thieves do a lot of fatal errors, only difference is that they can escape with ease… the “non thieves” players can’t,

Good puppy, you are understanding the point !

lol saying that Guardians, Mesmers, Eles can’t come back from their mistakes is blatanty false..
the only 2 classes that still need some love, at least from my thief point of view, are Warriors and Necro atm

I have to admit that you’re playstyle is very good..
do not listen to all the haters here and keep on with more videos, but.. man your opponents were very very bad..
Also you play very well your build but I still don’t like it, your bad opponents never put pressure on you, they focused all the time on your party mates, I think that your buld under pressure is not as good, the few times you were under pressure by 2\3 enemies focusing on you, well you were downed.
Not saying your bad, but that build can’t survive much when focused even with your dodges and evades.
My point of view tho

and with this I’m off to bed
thx Vizuna for the fun and lots of badge tonight

Leorcyn.1063:

Tshik.7204:

where were you when we broke vizunah 5 weeks ?

Haha !
As if SFR is remotely close to what it was. Man, SFR is only the name, you have almost nothing in common with the people that used to play at that time.
You’re not even close to be called “decent” compared to them.

Now play the “we do’t want to fight against you” card as much as you want, you’re the ones looking like spoiled kids here.
Much respect to the people and guilds who actually fight.

@kolly : you might want to count the green dots on your minimap, you’d be surprised … ._.

Of course I count 40 green dots (considering ranger pets also) that is all we have in EB, 40 men zerg vs your 80 men zerg..
next time I will take a screen of the second wave coming from the bridge too, my bad sorry

But as I said your 80 men zerg is so “skilled”, that’s why Vizunas run like chickens outside their zerg, they cannot show their “skilled” way to play otherwise

this is actually a “skilled zerg”… GJ Zerguna

Aeros.2046:

It is possible for the mindless zerg to be beaten by smaller more coordinated groups.

it depends…
if for “smaller more coordinated Group”, you mean 30men guild minizerg vs 40men pug zerg, yes of course it’s possible.

Malediktus.9250:

Zergs are good. Dont do anything to nerf them.

ok I would like to know where and when I have asked for nerfing zergs.
So read again people, but read carefully cos it seems many people here cannot understand the meaning of this topic.
Arena net already said that they are looking for some ways to give small groups a reason to exist over zergs in wvw. So A-Net admits that there is a problem with zergs in the current meta of WvW.
I don’t want to discuss here if do you like to zerg or not, or if zergs are good, funny, enjoyable or boring..
Do you want to run with your “organized” 40 men zerg? of course you can, in the same way you do now.
Now there will be 2 cases:
1- you will face another 40 men “organized” zerg = there are no changes compared to now

2- you will face a 20 men “less organized” zerg = you still have more chances to faceroll your enemies but IF and only IF you die and get stomped (and let’s face it, with the current downed state it’s easier to rally than to get stomped when you greatly outnumber you opponents), well only in that case I would like to see my proposal applied, I would like to see a gold penalty.

And I don’t think a gold penalty is something realy bad, I’m nnot asking for giving to the outmanned side a “God Mode” buff or something crazy like that, just a small penalty when they die.

But if you people just prefer to totally faceroll you enemies when they are 1\4 of your number, if you prefer to mindless rush in and survive just for AoE cap and downed state and if you are able to die even with all those advantages, you do not accept any penalty and just wait for someone else to ress you in the middle of the fight.. well if you enjoy this kind of playstyle, I don’t see any reason why A-Net should make changes to WvW in the near future cos it is perfect like it is now.
I am done, have fun

Saelune.5316:

The best way to deal with zerging is to somehow make tactics useful. When a small force beats a way larger force in reality, its cause of better thinking, not Gods in the heavens rusting the larger forces armor.

well I agree with you, but please.. show me where I have asked in my thread to change things so that 40+ men should lose against 10 men?
I have never asked for something like that, I am just asking to put some gold penalty if you still die when having such a big disparity in numbers in your favour.
with the current downed state and with your mates at your side, it shouldn’t be hard to prevent a stomp.
But it seems that many people here like to easy win, that’s why WvW in the current state is only a number game, cos people like to run in zerg (sure organized zergs but still zergs) and they feel safe and don’t want to be penalized for that, instead running in small groups should be penalized of course cos it is against the current meta right?
well enjoy your number game!!!

well I don’t think adding just a gold penalty is so bad, here people are asking even worst things..
Also I think this penalty should only be limited to the combat area, I mean if you are greatly outnumbering your opponents of something like 50 vs 20 in a delimited area, you should be penalized for dieing, while at the moment the Death penalties are the same and I find it to be not balanced.
the gold penalty is only a simple way to discourage this zerg mentality.
No one here is asking to give to the outmanned side more pvp buffs that will destroy the balance of course

I mean, I am reading a lot of discussion about removing AoE cap and fixing downed state. Some people agree that it could be usefull and others agree that it is a bad idea.
Why just not giving some penalties to zergs when they greatly outnumber their opponents in a fight?
Something like:
-All armor broken just with 1 Death
-Possibility to ress only out of combat
and so on..

this could discourage a bit the zerg mentality. People care much about their gold and if they have to repair their armor every time they die, maybe they will tend to not zerg anymore.

Just make revealed to appear everytime a thief goes out from stealth.. problem solved!!

Of course first balance the out of stealth thief combat, cos our out of stealth abilities are no where as strong as our stealth abilites and except for “acrobatic tree” thieves, we are the weakest class out of stealth compared to the Others that’s the reason so many thieves prefer using stealth builds and the other specs are almost underrated.

cuge.5398:

Karahol.9840:

Introduce more objectives on map to attack/defend instead of having vast, useless areas filled with animals and specific routes that give people little space to maneuver.

What i was suggesting about dolyaks would work in that sense, they could become a new important objective to fight for.

Karahol.9840:

Score will be determined based on the successful defences/attacks a server makes. No points will be added for holding for 8 hours (when everyone is sleeping) a structure

This was suggested already, many months ago, and i think i was an active part on that suggestion. Actually points gain on Successful events rather then on hold-time will greatly reduce night capping issues; even if it might get even bigger zergs.

About removing npc, mobs, and most of sieges weapons…. just wont happen, cause they are part of the game mode, its not a pure pvp like sPvP, its WvW, which is a grey zone between PvE and sPvP.

Anyway i would be totally up for a point system rework.

yeah I agree too that a point system rework is needed and I remember it was proposed to change it the way you describe long time ago already.
As for Dolyaks, they are something good in the direction of adding more stuffs to do around the map, and I think that lowering their spawn rate will only improve their importance and people will active defend a dolyak.
As for siege weapon I also think they need a rework, I like them to be an active part of WvW (even if I rarely use them) but I think that they are overused right now, just for one reason, cos siege weapon are too easy to build up and to destroy so no one cares about them, nor for defending them nor realy for destroying them, make them a rare thing in WvW and you will see actually people fighting for them, 1 server trying to build and also thinking where to build for the better success and 1 server trying to prevent the building.
Siege weapons, like dolyaks, could also play an important part in WvW for attract people out of the zerg and generating so many nice fights around them.
Of course if they are so easy to destroy, it’s better tobuild a new one instead of staying and defend the already built one

Korsbaek.9803:

ok lets remove the aoe cap i dare you
the first thing i would do is garthere a few guardians and eles to stack retaliation and might on each other and without aoe limit that would be very fast to gain 25 stacks of might, after that we will run around without attacking anyone and just let them use there super strong aoe on us and let us get all the loot after they die in seconeds to the retaliation damage and ofc we will use a few 50-60 people that just runs with us also to max the damage but we will still not attack you we will let you kill yourself.
with 371 damage from each player you hit(lets say 55) 20405 damage per aoe damage you give, come agien and say that aoe limit helps zergs more then it counters zergs.

a big zerg is strong because of lag and/or numbers and/or skill/cordination. a smaller groupe but more cordinated will most likely will into a difference between the zergs are to big.

so what you’re saying is that you need to gather 50-60 people for being effective in WvW, well but it is the same like now or am I wrong?
the fact is that now 50-60 people get an advantage from the AoE cap and they can stack on each other easily, My 5 men team instead will get a much higher benefit from AoE and downed state removed.
It’s a fact of point of view, if we want to see a zerg vs zerg game, well no changes are needed, because zerg vs zerg is all we have now.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Kolly.9872:

The problem here is Always the same, it’s people like you that are no skilled at all, WvW is all about who has the bigger blob now. Just Learn to split a bit man, and you won’t see all 50 men dieing by 1 shot.

My typical WvWvW experience in current months (EU tier 1, now finally tier 2):
I come our own borderlands and see that enemy controls 100% or almost all of the map. People are depressed, because enemy has night capped everything and upgraded their towers and keeps and built a lot of protective siege and runs around in a 20+ man blob.

We are badly outmanned and I see only couple of players near me, some might be upleveled. I put on my commander tag and start leading the PuGs, usually having just 1-2 guys with me in the beginning. We get couple of supply camps, NPCs, towers, then keep. The PuG train grows, but I advice people on the map chat to cap different supply camps at same time and request intel.

And then we have people like Kolly who tells me that people like me ruined the WvWvW, because I have no skill!!!

You are completely missing my point: the suggested siege + siege changes would bring only more imbalance. Be realistic and fair. You are not gonna build anything with the above suggested changes if you are on the smaller side. Enemy is gonna treb down your ACs or catapults from their tier #3 castle or keep. And with just 1-3 guys it would take forever for you to build a counter siege (would be blasted to bits in a second).

OMG mate seriously, try to think out of the constest.
What you are describing is a night capping problem, that is in this game from the early beginning. and yeah I play from beta and I have Always been on the outmanned side cos I do not like zergs and maxi blob.
The nightcapping issue cannot be solved in the current state of WvW nor if the proposed changes would be approved.
If you server doesn’t have WvW population vs WvW population of your opponents, well first of all your server should drop a tier. I have dropped a lot of tiers and have raised.
The topic is about how to improve things in WvW, giving them an importance other than build\destroy build\destroy or cap\lose cap\lose like it is now.
Less sieges but of a much higher impact in the war.
And there is no difference if you are outmanned 10 to 1, if your opponents want to build 1, 2,3 trebs or 10 golems you cannot stop them, and even if you play smart and and with your commander tag tell Others to go and cap camps or destroy enemy sieges and so on, well nothing will stop your opponents from building other 3 trebs and other 10 golems.
Full vs outmanned server is not the point of this thread

snowaugar.1823:

Sirendor.1394:

snowaugar.1823:

Organized group > any zerg

Snow, that’s the theory, but it doesn’t work like that at all.

L2p I’ve done it plenty with my guild I even wiped 30 with 8 using 2 ward guards 2 staff ele a grenade engi 2 ballista and an ac pre ac buff choke points ftw

well but you can do it even better if downed state and AoE cap will be removed ( or at least reworked). At the moment both downed state and AoE cap favor the zerg mentality. This is lowering the skill cap in WvW.
I am a leader of a small havoc guild, usually we run not more than 5 men party and we can own groups much bigger than us but there are times that even if we play smarter and better we can do anything against AoE cap and downed state. Let’s see who is realy good and use the best tactic once Downed state and AoE cap will be revisited.

Kasama.8941:

Kolly.9872:

Kasama.8941:

I like your dolyak idea, but the AoE limit and siege I think works fine. The fact that siege weapons are rather vulnerable, means that placement becomes an important factor. It’s a part of what separates an experience player from a new player, in WvW, as siege placement takes knowledge. This also gives some much needed dynamic to siege wars, as you get punished for placing siege in a bad place.

I see it in a different manner!
The fact that siege weapon are rather vulnerable reduces their tactical importance.
I prefer to have few siege weapons around the map but that can realy be feared once they are up.
At the moment destroying a treb is “just another treb down”… and few seconds later you will see 2 more treb up in the same place.
What about if for buildling only 1 treb you would need not only to take 1 camp but to defend it also for 30 minutes? Same goes for golems…
but once you manage to build one, you finally have a powerfull weapon to use against your enemies..

Of course nightcapping would be an issue.. but it’s an issue already. There is no difference from the way it is at the moment, when one server can cap all the map during the night a full upgrade all buildings.

We are here to discuss how to improve tactics in WvW, and personally I have seen a lot of good guild and awsome commanders with different tactics.. but still stacking 50+ men on the commasder tag and moving like a big blob is a worth it tactic, and that shouldn’t be the case.

I personally think it would give siege weapons too big of a role. The game should be about the players, not the siege weapons. If two more trebs are build for the one that was destroyed, it pushes the opposing server to take action and chase the foes away/capture the tower. Golems already have a lot of survivability, but not so much that it doesn’t require them to be defended by allies. It’s also arguably a lot more fun to fight and support a siege weapon, then it is to build one for 30 min.

Blobs need to be balanced by giving smaller groups a bigger impact on the battlefield. However, blobs will always be there, because ArenaNet wants to create the felling of an “epic battle” (even though the combat system isn’t build for it).

The problem is, from my point of view, that trebs, golems like as dolyak are too squishy.
I can easily take down a trebs by myself going kamikaze, even if the treb is well defended, I have done it.
And dolyak, well, they are simply undefendable!!! I challenge anyone at defending a dolyak when I try to kill it. Sure I can die, or better I will die but I will achieve my task that is Killing the dolyak.
I would prefer dolyak being killable if not protected, but being unkillable till there are defenders near by. This will improve much the role of dolyaks in wvw. Now let’s add a longer spawn time for dolyaks but also an improved supply capacity so that they can bring more supply per run.
Dolyak should attract battles on the map. Because if the zerg must split around for defending 2 dolyaks, it’s only a good thing for the health of the game. At the moment they are so squishy that requires just 1 person with brain for Killing it, even if 5 ppl are defending.

Kasama.8941:

I like your dolyak idea, but the AoE limit and siege I think works fine. The fact that siege weapons are rather vulnerable, means that placement becomes an important factor. It’s a part of what separates an experience player from a new player, in WvW, as siege placement takes knowledge. This also gives some much needed dynamic to siege wars, as you get punished for placing siege in a bad place.

I see it in a different manner!
The fact that siege weapon are rather vulnerable reduces their tactical importance.
I prefer to have few siege weapons around the map but that can realy be feared once they are up.
At the moment destroying a treb is “just another treb down”… and few seconds later you will see 2 more treb up in the same place.
What about if for buildling only 1 treb you would need not only to take 1 camp but to defend it also for 30 minutes? Same goes for golems…
but once you manage to build one, you finally have a powerfull weapon to use against your enemies..

Of course nightcapping would be an issue.. but it’s an issue already. There is no difference from the way it is at the moment, when one server can cap all the map during the night a full upgrade all buildings.

We are here to discuss how to improve tactics in WvW, and personally I have seen a lot of good guild and awsome commanders with different tactics.. but still stacking 50+ men on the commasder tag and moving like a big blob is a worth it tactic, and that shouldn’t be the case.

Deniara Devious.3948:

cuge.5398:

@Deniara
Night capping is a problem that exists since launch, and i think its something that cannot be solved in any way, but tiers reduce it naturally. If a server dont have enough coverage it will go down till he stops in a tier where its coverage is similar to its one.

About the 50ppl killing blow by a treb, jeez, i’d love to see that….

I am sorry, but I have zero sympathy for you now and I do hope some game glitch will transfer you to play on Vabbi and then you will finally understand what I mean:
http://mos.millenium.org/eu/matchups/map/710

What you are suggesting would turn the game into a nightmare for a big number of EU servers. It would completely kill WvWvW for many players and servers, since not everybody can afford the gem transfer cost. If enemy already build siege all the map and controls 100% of the map, your few players are unable to do anything, absolutely nothing after your “balance” changes. And all for… just for such “fun” that somebody can kill 50 guys with a single Treb shot and get gazillion badges and loot bags for being so “skilled”.

well I stopped reading here!!
if 50 men blob realy die from 1 treb shot (remember that one of the proposal is to change the fire rate of those weapons, 1 treb should shot 1 projectile every 30 seconds), well thos 50 men blob deserve to die!!!
The problem here is Always the same, it’s people like you that are no skilled at all, WvW is all about who has the bigger blob now. Just Learn to split a bit man, and you won’t see all 50 men dieing by 1 shot.

EDIT: this topic just wanna show how we should change WvW tactics.
Now it’s all stacked in 1 big blob = win
Then it could be: stacked in 1 big blob = dead

and I prefer very much the second option

salluks.6017:

i do not agree with ur sieging points atall,

WvW is siege wars 2 as it already is, i would like to see more open field fights without the siege!

well first of all I agree on all points stated by the OP!!
At the moment we are seeing Siege Wars 2 just because siege are too easy to build up and too easy to cut down.
This is destroying their strategical importance.
If we could build less siege weapon (since their build cost would be higher than now) but their power could be also higher, and also they could be much tougher than now, we could finally see less sieges spam and more strategical use of those.

Tyrannus Blade.3408:

Niim.9260:

Zergs are not more effective, the game is full of lazy, low skill cap, hand holders that ANET keeps catering to, patch after patch.

So ANET should turn to the zerg of 100 people and say “You can’t play the way you want to play any more because this group of 5 wants people to play their way and only their way.”?

no one is asking for making zergs useless, but just making them more skilled.
zergers at the moment are composed by mindless spammers. Making WvW a bit more hardcore can only be good.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Plenty of 5 man teams are brainless.

Here we’ll go this rout, all 5 man team are brainless for not grouping up with enough other players to deal with that large force they so foolishly thought they could handle. There.

Your teams don’t die enough anyway and they deserve to die a even more painful death.

You don’t know how well thought out my army is. There are tactics and coordination involved, just different.

ANet won’t be changing it anyway. They have state that WvW is supposed to be combat involving large numbers of players.

You still haven’t provided any reason that a 5 man team should be able to defeat a 100 man force.

if there were realy a tactic involved in a zerg, I would agree with you.
But there is no tactic when 100 ppl rush in a bunch of aoe Attacks and simply do not die cos there is an aoe cap.
If my 5 men team do not use brain and rush in the same way, we are dead before we can even react, that’s the reason why my 5 men team knows how to engage. Use your brain or die.
I’m not stating that 5 men should win against 100 men, just that in the current state WvW is too much Zerg forgiving.
Just remove AoE cap and rework the downed state (I don’t want to see it removed at all) and still you will see 100 men armies in the map but finally they will have to use tactics and not just to do a brainless engage.

I don’t believe that the zerg is just rushing in. I would bet they are most likely double dodging the aoe and in the case of my warrior, I can ignore or remove the stuff flung for a short enough time to do my thing.

I cannot support any kind of aoe cap removal unless they nerf aoe damage to the point that the more people it hits, the less it hurts otherwise too much power will be given to too few classes. AoE cap makes as much sense as a GS 100 blade the zerg at the same time because a sword wield would run out of omph before cleaving through the other 90 people stacked. Neither really makes any sense.

There are tactics to zerg and there are tactics individual players use to deal with a zerg. You may not see or recognize them but tactics, timing and skill is being used all the time.

in my opinion removing AoE cap will not turn WvW in just an AoE zerg fest, but simply it will force Zergs to split when engaging a battle and not to act just like 1 big identity.
We have different point of view, I just don’t like when I see 1 mega blob winning by pressing autoattack and standing in a bunch of red circle.
Of course some classes will benefit more than others from the AoE cap removal, but it is like that in every RvR game, where every class should have a role.
If your warrior is an heavy single target dpsser, well don’t stand in the middle of your zerg but just focus on bring down 1 single targets from 1 side.
If your Warrior is an heavy CC hammer user, well your role and your position should be different.
That’s just my 2 cent, I don’t want to see zergs useless, I like massive battles 100 vs 100, I just cannot accept to see 1 mega blob vs 1 mega blob where all people just spam 2 buttons and the only tactic involved is “follow the commander tag”, Aoe field on the commander tag, blast finisher on the commander tag, veil, engage, spam spam spam spam… and so on

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Kolly.9872:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Plenty of 5 man teams are brainless.

Here we’ll go this rout, all 5 man team are brainless for not grouping up with enough other players to deal with that large force they so foolishly thought they could handle. There.

Your teams don’t die enough anyway and they deserve to die a even more painful death.

You don’t know how well thought out my army is. There are tactics and coordination involved, just different.

ANet won’t be changing it anyway. They have state that WvW is supposed to be combat involving large numbers of players.

You still haven’t provided any reason that a 5 man team should be able to defeat a 100 man force.

if there were realy a tactic involved in a zerg, I would agree with you.
But there is no tactic when 100 ppl rush in a bunch of aoe Attacks and simply do not die cos there is an aoe cap.
If my 5 men team do not use brain and rush in the same way, we are dead before we can even react, that’s the reason why my 5 men team knows how to engage. Use your brain or die.
I’m not stating that 5 men should win against 100 men, just that in the current state WvW is too much Zerg forgiving.
Just remove AoE cap and rework the downed state (I don’t want to see it removed at all) and still you will see 100 men armies in the map but finally they will have to use tactics and not just to do a brainless engage.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Why should your pitiful army of 5 be able to defeat my grand army of 100?

the problem is that your 100 men army is brainless.
Zerg are used to rush regardless of aoe… and downed state and aoe cap save them from a poor and deserved Death.
I seriously hope this will get fixed, but I have no faith cos wvw is too much casual in its current state and the 90% of the wvw playerbase cannot afford to play a much more hardcore game.

Pinko.2076:

downed state, aoe cap

definitely this!!!
when the aoe cap will be removed, we will finally see more small scale battles