Guild Wars 2

Sometime splitting the effects of these overpowered traits and giving them to some other unused traits, would lead to a better build diversity

Don’t play thief! Almost every other class can adapt and do a better job when there is no team work involved

thank you for posting it.
I already knew about this video cos I follow Phantaram on a daily basis but this video is a realy good guide for new pvppers and even I managed to learn something better from it.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Auesis.7301:

Considering the way Stability works now, I think it might be fair to adjust it to gaining 1 short stack on dodge instead.

This is actually a nice idea.

nice ideas won’t be taken seriously by Devs

I’ve read the rules and just want to say that I agree at all with all of them. If devs could balance the game around your rules this game would be finally balanced.

hihey.1075:

glock.6590:

Sizer farms every thief on EU, the only reason Levin killed sizer its because he was sitting in stealth forever and waiting to get that spike off.

And those 2 thieves never dueled, it was just the D/P trying to gank sizer while he is in a team fight. Sizer would 100-0 Levin in a actual 1v1.

…as it’s expected by a S/D thief vs a D/P in 1v1.

Well actually D\P counters S\D in an 1v1 fair situation.
Sizer is a god with S\D
S\D can disengage much better and has better team fight presence and of course mobility

Turret engies are out of control but so are Passive AI, CC spam and Condition dmg\spam. Talking about any class not just engies.

Fix Steal Bug also while you’re at it review the effects of many useless thief traits (Hard to Catch activating randomly when stability is up?, FS blocable\LS unblockable?). Give thieves more options to go than just 30 trickery and nerf what hard-counter thieves (Medi Guardians?, Turret Engies?). Remove passive play and instant burst from range.
After all of this we can discuss about Steal being OP.

SoloQ is full of pve carebears right now. Going to play something else till this event is over

Zerker specs are the most balanced and fun to play specs of the game. Anything in the game should follow this path.
Nerf celestial, Nerf bunkers, let’s all play high risk high reward instead.

Engies cooldowns reduced by 25 – 30 %? makes sense.. devs are buffing even more their classes
and please don’t do anything for thieves anymore!! I prefer having nothing than seeing a small cd reduction (5 secs realy?) on useless venoms so that you can always tell us that you’re buffing thief this time.
Please leave thieves alone since you never showed love for this class.
Lot’s of bugs and nonsense skills and traits that are still waiting for a fix since beta.
Do you want a tip?
Why the hell “Hard to Catch” still activate its effect if I already have stability on me?

If only I had a team I’d pick her

Blackmoa.3186:

Hi guys, after some last second disbands before ToG a friend and I are now going to set up our own team. We are currently Warrior(him) and Necro(me) and are looking for the following classes:

1 Mesmer
1 Thief
aswell as 1 ele or guardian

as you might see we are going for a rather high risk comp that will require spot on play aswell as good teamplay from each of us, so be prepeared to practice alot with the entire team in teamq, aswell as 1v1, 2v2 and stuff like that.

You should be atleast 18 years old and a EU citizen for future tournaments(which we will play as many of as possible), know your class inside out and have a understanding of how conquest works

Can I ask your GMT playtime during the weekdays? I play S\D thief and I can talk with 1 mesmer and 1 ele friends of mine, but we can talk in game tomorrow.

Kharr.5746:

SoLeciTO.3490:

Hi all,

I really want to hear your opinion on this.

I hate when people just call OP all the things with no reason but L2P.

So i honestly ask to you all.

Is engineer OP as i feel it on SPVP or is just that is a hard counter to my profession (thief)?

Does any other person with a different profession than mine find engis a easy target?

First, I’ll start by saying that I play all professions equally and they’re all my favorites. That being said, no, engi is not OP. There are excellent players out there, and if you run into one of them on any profession, you will feel like their profession is OP due to the skill gap.

Some builds will also hard-counter other builds. But, if you take a minute to figure out a few different builds (e.g. condi, bunker, berserker, AI, etc) and change to a different build after getting steamrolled, you’ll likely see yourself doing much better barring a major skill gap between you and the opponent.

Edit: I also want to discourage the broad sweeping statements like “X class is OP” since odds are that maybe one of their builds hard counters what you are playing, but your build hard counters some of their builds as well. E.g. A turret bunker engi might destroy you on point, but a flamethrower berserker engi will die in a backstab + HS + steal combo.

I agree with you, but the same has been said for thieves since beta.
“Thieves OP, pls Nerf”
Still this didn’t stop A-Net from nerfing us kitten every balance patch

Awsome!
More experienced players should do like you

Location: Italy
Time and date of incident (plus time zone): every day from 9pm to 11pm GMT +1
Game World: Seafarer Rest
Brief description of what you’re seeing: Skill Lag and Movement Issues for about 2 hours, after that I start playing well with zero lag till the next evening

IP 206.127.159.209:0

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Harbinger.8637:

Engi and Engi are probably the top in this area. Engi can also be pretty decent.

Atherakhia.4086:

Engi deserves a mention as well.

Kolly.9872:

1) Engis
2)Engis
3)Engis
4)Engis

Fixed.

Engis are fine… oh wait! This is not Lemmings Online?

1) Turrets
2)Pets
3)Minions
4)Clones

This terrbile lag started for me from July and never stopped.
I constantly lag a lot from 9 pm to 11 pm GMT +1, and that is my usual game time so I cannot play anymore GW2, at least I cannot do pvp anymore and it’s frustrating.
During the rest of the day I got zero lag, never, I can play for hours without ever lagging and then when the clock hits 9 pm I suddenly start lagging.
I have some friends with different isp, with the same issue during the same hours. Definitely there’s something wrong with your server A-Net

ghaleon.2861:

josh.7390:

ghaleon.2861:

tanztante.6532:

well, to be honest, i always pictured the thief to be doing exactly that and i still think the thief should be the hard counter to every zerker spec in the game. every other profession can endure a thief long enough and even win. plus, i don’t really want to discuss this, because i am a really really terrible thief and i cannot even know if this is true in general.

Then enjoy the bunker celestial cheese comp /thread

You’re wrong on so many levels it isn’t even funny anymore, I don’t know where to start… First, the main argument that thief counters every zerker spec. Lets go through the classes, btw. I’m always referring to a d/p thief, not s/d.

1. Zerker Warrior is just bad due to being a one-trick-pony (evis / 100b)
2. Zerker Ranger is quite a thread to thieves cuz u have to blow 2 gapclosers to get on him, while one is a stunbreak and the other your daze/boonsteal. If the ranger isn’t caught in a rlly bad spot, he usually has the upper hand. A good Ranger will completely troll you by starting rapid fire when you put down black powder, the channel will kill you while stealthing
3. Zekrer Engis are, like warriors, one-trick-ponies
4. Tbh I haven’t seen a power nec since lich nerf, therefore cant really say something about it…
5. Zerker scepter eles got a solid 50% chance I’d say. Due to tripple block and invuln (if running focus), they can mitigate a lot of your damage while they deal crazy amounts of damage. Phoenix, the hardest hitting skill, can be cast w/o target into sr or black powder.
6. Zerker guardians wreck thieves, period.
7. Thieves usually got the upper hand against mesmers, eventough when the mesmer dodges the steal he has a solid chance. Since steal is instant, doding it is a lot about expierence and predicting.

Something to add to all the steal-haters. We invest 4 traits (8 Points) into this 1 skill. Yea it is powerful, but dont forget if you fail it more than once (sometimes once is already enough), you isntantly lost your 1v1.

As you may see “countering every zerker spec” is just plain wrong. The only zerker spec truly countered is mesmer. And now it gets interesting. In the quote above you say, that we obviously want the celstial chees comp to continue. Therefore I assume that you’re refering to teamq (where you can actually decide which comp you run). And this is the point where I call l2p. Not directly towards you, but to your team. If you’re running a mesmer and your team isn’t peeling for you, you’re doing it wrong. However if my assumption is wrong and you’re referring to soloq, then you just got to get used to it. Every1 gets countered by a certain spec.

One point I agree with you is, that consume plasma is too much. Remove the aegis and it’s pretty balanced.

To the last one, celestial existing due to thief. What a joke. The problem is that thief/mesmer is faster between nodes that most other roamers so you pick these two, plus most celestial bunker builds are more viable than their zerker counterparts. d/d ele is just incredibly strong with the amount of protection and cleanse you get, espically when you add the mightstacking, same goes for staff ele. As I mentioned above, warrior zerker is imo useless. The celestial builds are just the best you can get out of the class, that’s why it is so popular. Compared to zerker amulet you loose quite a lot of power and some crit chance. But then you just go mighstacking like crazy and pick your thief with pack runes, tadaa 2 sustainers with zerker dmg…

Josh you wasted all this time to write bs……. When did I said celestial exist cause of the thief class? I said classes like ele are forced into a tanky dps role because their zerker spec has no sutain and it’s true that thief hard counters them. And I’m not wrong, I know what I’m talking about, but I’m not gonna waste my time like you writing for an hour pretending you know what you’re saying. Thief hard counters every zerker spec in the game. Their steal abilities are too strong and were created to win every single 1v1. If you want to continue this bs pm in game. Anyways I’m done with this thread, I’m not going to keep wasting my time, explaining every noob here over and over again the same thing when they have no clue wtf their saying. PZ

ok mr PRO thank you for your time, we will take your issue into consideration.

Blackjack.5621:

Mesmer Thief + 3 dummies defending.

or simply 5 dummies watching each others

same here, wanted to play but wasted another night. Seriously I’m done with gw2. Lagging badly since July 2014

It’s funny that:
- Mesmers says nerf thief “Consume Plasma”
-Eles says nerf thief boon removal
-Warriors says nerf thief blind spam
Everyone wanna nerf something different for reaching an easy win vs thieves.
All the specs that literally eat thieves alive don’t complain too much
Turret Engies, Med Guardians, Terrormancers, Warrior Conditions, also Power Rangers to an extend.

OP is a well known thief hater, nothing new to see here. Also his brainless Terrormancer is an hard counter for every thief. Of course teams that still prefer to bring 2\3 zerkers for burst over teams with 5 celestial builds, if they focus well can take down every bunker spec in seconds. But that is called good teamplay and coordination vs lazy bunkerish teams.

ghaleon.2861:

But back on topic, The only zerker spec that shuts down a thief is “Medi Guard”.

Then NERF “Meditation Guardian” cos thief has no chance against that build. As you said every zerker spec should have a chance to equally fight vs other zerker specs right?

I guess this topic won’t see any answer by devs

Because your terrormancer require a very high skill level to be played.
Some of the best teams still play thief\mesmer because they are fun to play while this 5 bunker celestial meta is so boring to watch and play.

ghaleon.2861:

Kolly.9872:

Every bunker spec (not only celestial) hard counter thief, so?

Did you even read the post? It’s about the thief hard countering every zerker spec in the game…… Except medi guard

so do you want thief to not counter anything but everything to counter thief?
Since every bunker counter thief, Heavy conditions specs counter thief, now let’s add every zerker specs to that list and delete the thief from the game.
So many games played and still clueless about the thief class.

Every bunker spec (not only celestial) hard counter thief, so?

A-Net do you see what you DID? You created a monster with all your very easy pve related contents every 15 days.. You created a generation of monsters indeed..
People now think they deserve to get anything without effort, just cos they deserve it.

To OP:
Do you realy think you deserve to get “my” Champion Shadow or Marauder (pvp titles) in 5 mins without even know how to pvp? On my own I would like it could be possible to get ranks only in tPvP, so we could leave out all these hotjoin rank farmers.

Btw if you’re just a troll, I’ll give you 10\10 for the best trolling topic I have seen since beta

glock.6590:

Im fairly new to PvP and I noticed that in solo and team arena there is at least 3 or 4 enginners per match. I was wondering what is so special about this profession or its some kind of bruiser class that dominates PvP?

Im just looking for opinions from more experinced players , I really want to understand why there is not much class diversity in spvp. ( solo and team arena).

People usually like to go afk in the middle of games. Engie can still win by passive ai during these moments.

Yeah
Celestial Team fights are boring to watch
Celestial Team composition are boring to fight against
Celestial Build are boring to use
Celetial is boring
This game is gonna be boring

Kako.1930:

I play a celestial d/f ele and sometimes experiment with celestial engi too, I can say that their weakness is a good burst – a hard counter to my personal build is a good s/d thief

Burst? Do you even know the meaning of Burst? S\D thief has no burst..
All I can see is that do you play Celestial, doesn’t matter which class you pick.
Maybe that means there’s a problem with celestial when everyone and their mothers choose celestial over everything?
Also celestial Engi losing to thief is quite sad…

Zord.6130:

Kolly.9872:

hihey.1075:

Cam Ron.4170:

hihey.1075:

I wrote a long post but the forums got dizzy and lost it.
Won’t type again, but Trotsky, just know this: S/D is now a BALANCED set. Before, it was not.
You want damage? Go CS. You want survivability and sustain? Go Acro. You want utility? Go Trickery.
Your choice. You can’t have all 3 together anymore.

Also, I won’t brag about my experience but trust me that I have plenty, and most top players agree with me (such as all 55hp monks).

Lollllll, you must think D/P thief is crazy OP if you think S/D is now “balanced”…. Or are you going to make the argument that S/D is as good as D/P…..

D/P (regardless of the spec used) has always been inferior to S/x specs, especially in 1v1s.
If you lose to a D/P when playing Acro+Trickery S/x, you got outplayed hard.

if I can beat your D\P and S\D thief using an S\P thief do you will state that S\P is more OP than the other 2 sets?
Do you will state that all of these 3 sets are viable in PvP and not subpar compared to the majority of builds around nowadays?

The only advantage that a DP thief has over a S/x Thief is IF the DP gets the jump on him. Which CAN happen in a pvp match, mind me, but is the S/x’s job to be alert all the time and be ready to react or avoid that burst.
In an actual 1v1, a DP will NEVER land a clean backstab on the S/x (assuming good players), and the amount of evades and dodges available to the S/x are enough to make most of the DP bursts to miss. Also, landing a steal on a S/x is extremely difficult, while landing one on a DP is easy as pie.

Of course everything can happen in a 1v1, and getting outplayed can ensure the win of the DP side.

I believe if you beat him kitten while he plays SD it only means that either you are a better thief than him, or that you outplayed him for that round.

Also, all these sets are viable in PvP, but the best one IMHO is DP, because it suits the role of a thief better (one shotting enemy zerkers or weakened foes). SD is still viable because you can actually hold a point with it for a while, and SP, well… It’s a mix of both the previous sets, but I don’t like it really much and haven’t played it a lot so cannot say anything

Well listen, for me all the 3 sets D\P S\D and S\P are perfectly balanced, that means that after the patch no one of the above sets can truly shines over the others.
That means that they are all good for tPvP? no, because there are too many builds right now that can outdamage, outheal and still damage a thief right now if played correctly. And for correctly I mean only as a top 50 player can play.
Now if we start from the point that tPvP is not a place for 1v1 fights but more for good teamplay and rotation, a thief can still do well and win, but surely he cannot carry his team to victory anymore and still it’s the only class that will take a too high risk vs a very low reward trying to fight any other class 1vs1 when needed, eccept maybe for power mesmer and other thieves, where the chances actually are 50\50.
I realy don’t mind the nerfs but the fact that so many other bunker builds were not nerfed at the same time or even buffed (turret engies?).
The problem of the thief right now is not the thief himself but that there are not anymore glass builds with everyone and his mother running survivable specs that can kill anyone by attrition. Thief is the oly class that cannot realy spec bunker, kitten even ranger with the new fotm power spec can play safe from 1500 range and still have an huge burst for killing a bunker on point, or otherwise can spec bunker and still feel usefull to the team. We are left with the only roaming and free point decap (if the enemy team is clueless), andour team support in team fight is down to using shortbow (huge support indeed).
In conclusion regarding D\P fighting an S\x build, I don’t think that hitting a target with steal (instant attack) is something realy hard to do, even on a target that is dodging all over the map, dodging and not doing damage I would like to add. Btw I agree that on the same skill level, thief vs thief is down to pure lack and crit proc.

Azawrath.7304:

Drop BV for DS and laugh as the rangers kill themselves. DS increased my survivability by a ton, I don’t think I’m ever going back to BV.

talking about wvw I can see this working cos wvw is full of no brain pve carebears. Unfortunately WvW is not PvP, just a huge number of chicken smashing buttons.

hihey.1075:

Cam Ron.4170:

hihey.1075:

I wrote a long post but the forums got dizzy and lost it.
Won’t type again, but Trotsky, just know this: S/D is now a BALANCED set. Before, it was not.
You want damage? Go CS. You want survivability and sustain? Go Acro. You want utility? Go Trickery.
Your choice. You can’t have all 3 together anymore.

Also, I won’t brag about my experience but trust me that I have plenty, and most top players agree with me (such as all 55hp monks).

Lollllll, you must think D/P thief is crazy OP if you think S/D is now “balanced”…. Or are you going to make the argument that S/D is as good as D/P…..

D/P (regardless of the spec used) has always been inferior to S/x specs, especially in 1v1s.
If you lose to a D/P when playing Acro+Trickery S/x, you got outplayed hard.

if I can beat your D\P and S\D thief using an S\P thief do you will state that S\P is more OP than the other 2 sets?
Do you will state that all of these 3 sets are viable in PvP and not subpar compared to the majority of builds around nowadays?

evilapprentice.6379:

hihey.1075:

Rusc.4978:

hihey.1075:

I wrote a long post but the forums got dizzy and lost it.
Won’t type again, but Trotsky, just know this: S/D is now a BALANCED set. Before, it was not.
You want damage? Go CS. You want survivability and sustain? Go Acro. You want utility? Go Trickery.
Your choice. You can’t have all 3 together anymore.

You couldn’t have all 3 of those lines together to begin with, since we only have 14 trait points.

Yes, but your initial burst with Steal+Larcenous Strike+1-2 auto+Double sigil procs could easily oneshot an enemy zerker player (4-5k LS, 3k double sigils, 4k autos, 2k steal).
Without LS, the only way you can get those numbers again is if you go into CS

Those must be silly WvW numbers (Where you will never find balance, because the game is balanced around 5v5 capture point), because they’re absolutely impossible in SPvP with a 2/0/0/6/6 setup. Even if your numbers were accurate (let me reiterate, they are not), you’re talking all crits, where your typical 2/0/0/6/6 builds has 35-48% crit (depending on utilities and runes); even with fury that’s nowhere near 100% crit. And just one final thing, LS + 2 auto swings (because if you’re claiming 1 autoattack hit for 4k you’re out of your mind) is far from a “One shot”, and you’d need to be fairly lucky to get both sigils to proc on 3 swings.

I don’t WvW, but I don’t really believe S/D was considered “OP” in WvW, especially considering how powerful SA and stealth are there.

S/D is a laughably UP set at this point, and the changes were unwarranted. Thieves are currently low man on the totem pole because Anet has no idea what it is they want thieves to do. They keep pushing out ridiculous nerfs while simultaneously ignoring Under performing weapon sets (P/P, D/D), tweaking awfully designed and implemented traits (AE, CI), and downright ignoring their past abortions (Hard to catch).

he forgot to add that the enemy must be sleeping in the while. Even then he will survive for a fair amount of time. If the enemy react with block\invulnerability, stun\daze\knockback, cond spam, the thief is forced to retreat or die.

I think it all depends on which team composition the thief is on..
there are some teams that realy don’t know what to do with a thief, those are full bunker teams where celestial ele, hambow (or 2 ele, 2 hambow) engi can win by attrition and good rotation, where fights last longer, the thief’s burst is not enough. I’d say Cheese Mode play this kind of meta.
But let’s see TCG, those guys play a different kind of meta, of course they are the best ones at playing this way, they focus on mobility and spike, and that is where the thief still shines.

Forsaker.9213:

Kolly.9872:

at the moment even with a full anti condition build you cannot stand against a condition spamming build.
My suggestion:
- remove dot conditions from every autoattack or at least give it an internal cd
- remove torment from the game (we already had burning and bleeding, no reason for adding another strong dot in the game)
- reduce condition stacks to 10 in pvp or totally remove stacks, make conditions stronger but reduce their application over time, so there would be a reason to bring a condition cleanse
- Conditions should help the physical dmg or make it easier to deal it, should not be used as the main source of dmg. (in this way we won’t see anymore full conditions spamming teams)

Wont happen , devs would have to completly rework some classes , runes , sigils, traits , utilitys….

this is just an excuse!
There is no reason to not try to improve their game, and it’s not that hard if only they actually would do something about it. Instead we are left with contentless balance patches every 6 months that are ruining the game even more.
Anet is not giving us anything, they don’t do nothing for pvp, I realy wonder what they are doing when they work?? on spvp, and after 6 month they come out with something they call pvp patch that destroy even more an already destroyed game.

at the moment even with a full anti condition build you cannot stand against a condition spamming build.
My suggestion:
- remove dot conditions from every autoattack or at least give it an internal cd
- remove torment from the game (we already had burning and bleeding, no reason for adding another strong dot in the game)
- reduce condition stacks to 10 in pvp or totally remove stacks, make conditions stronger but reduce their application over time, so there would be a reason to bring a condition cleanse
- Conditions should help the physical dmg or make it easier to deal it, should not be used as the main source of dmg. (in this way we won’t see anymore full conditions spamming teams)

Ideas to help thief?
Someone should fire all the pvp balancing team

NinjaEd.3946:

Can’t balance pistol whip? Increase initiative to 7 in pvp…

Can’t balance s/d? More like can’t realize certain acro traits + fire/air sigils + the buffed zerker amulet is the cause.

Can’t balance IP or AE Gm traits? Give them mediocre buffs without considering any opportunity cost.

Can’t balance panic strike? Didn’t even realize it needed balancing, most 30/x/x/x/x thieves die from looking at them.

Can’t fix venoms? Buff 1 trait to function the way it should of from the start and pretend venoms are for condition builds.

Can’t fix steal? Incredibly underwhelming without traits, bugged beyond belief for months now. Fun stuff when your class mechanic is clunky.

Can’t balance underwater combat? What is underwater combat and how does one stealth underwater without hide in shadows or hidden thief?

End result: Disappointment, my builds really haven’t changed in months now. At least I can still play it though, but man has it fallen behind.

The sad truth is that the thief was perfectly balanced before the last patch if compared to some other realy OP builds.
In a perfect world they shouldn’t touch the thief at all, instead they should focus on balancing weak and OP builds on other classes

Cynz.9437:

Kolly.9872:

let’s open everyday a “nerf ranger.. ranger op” thread like other classes have done for thieves from the release.
We don’t even need to know how the class works, just spam the forum with nonsense things about rangers. Let’s act like 10years old childs, it’s the only way A-Net will listen to us

engis seem to be immune to it, i wonder why…=.=

We didn’t cry enough. Actually we didn’t cry at all.

let’s open everyday a “nerf ranger.. ranger op” thread like other classes have done for thieves from the release.
We don’t even need to know how the class works, just spam the forum with nonsense things about rangers. Let’s act like 10years old childs, it’s the only way A-Net will listen to us

Eurantien.4632:

Venom share thief.

with 45 seconds cd venoms are realy a reliable source for locking down an opponent.
I forgot it’s full of venom share thieves in high ranked teams…

As I said in other topics I think thief is still a good class, maybe the best balanced class in the whole game with at least 3 usefull weaponsets for PvP (D\P S\D S\P) and 4 for WvW (P\D), with the shortbow as an ever green weapon choice.
Those weaponsets stated above don’t need anything else now, if A-Net can focus now on P\P only and some weak utilities\traits that no one utilizes (traps?), the class will be perfect to me.
A-Net then should focus exclusively on other classes, which have or overpowered specs or too weak specs, if they can tone down a bit those OP specs (terror necro, turret engie, pu mesmers) and buff other specs on the same classes, the game will finally start to shine.

In my opinion S\P and D\P are both 2 good sets in pvp right now, A-Net shouldn’t touch those sets and instead check on other too much effective classes the next round.
S\D didn’t need any nerf but Acro traitline needed. Once again A-net decided to touch the wrong thing. The fact that in this heavy condition and CC spam meta only a super evasive thief could survive, just means that the meta is wrong. Tone down AoE, conditions and heavy CC and then also the thief evasion.
The fact that other OP specs can wreck a bad thief in 3 seconds doesn’t mean the thief is UP but only that some classes need to be toned down a bit.

Renegade.6240:

I read the recent topics and I see that almost everyone thinks S/D and D/D is dead, P/P is already a joke, P/D is only useful against melees in 1v1 situations, that only leaves D/P which I don’t know much about, fail much, and think its not very reliable too
Woah forgot the S/P, may be good in PvE but don’t even worth trying in WvW and sPvP

I think I’m playing a different game then, since I can play S\P effectively in PvP and WvW
D\P and P\D are as strong as before
D\D only needs some little fix for being in par with the other 2 sets
P\P is still the same useless weapon set, definitely need some changes
The only part of this patch I realy don’t get is the change to FS\LS: people were crying on perma dodge and A-Net decided to buff it and to nerf the damage.
and P\P

play terror necro, you don’t even need to be good at that

why?
FS\LS were totally balanced before the patch and the thief had a good place inside the current meta with 2\3 viable builds, it was not the strongest class 1vs1 nor the squishiest, it was just the best roamer for free point decap and 2vs1 situations.
Why we should ask for compromises? We were good before and now A-Net kittened up with us.
No compromises!! Revert changes or massive quit!!