A fuller story: Faolain told them that Glint was a dragon champion of an Elder Dragon not yet awakened (truth), so they went to confront Glint with the notion that they may have to face a dragon whom once was a protector of humanity in the past. When they got there, weapons ready, Glint revealed the truth – that she was a champion, but betrayed her master, who awoke during said confrontation between DE and Glint. The then prepared for Kralkatorrik’s wrath and fought him together, resulting in the deaths of Glint and Snaff because Logan left to save Jennah when Ebonhawke got attacked by freshly made Branded.
Still not the full story, which is told in Edge of Destiny novel.
@dunnberry: IIRC, Kralkatorrik snapped her neck in half with a strong bite (effectively merely broke her neck, but no ripping afaik), at the moment she put a laurel made of metal and his crystallized blood on his head.
To bad we drained Zitan magic to kill him otherwise he would have been a treasure trove of power to slay other elder dragons. I reference zitain the body found. after u slay him u can jump off the aircraft you used and swim and see his body and other dragon champions u slay during the battle.
things i want to note are:
Dragons are more powerful then gods. We know this because the human gods are cowering in fear leaving the dirty work to us.Dragons are drawn towards sources of magic
Why isn’t a dragon flying towards Zitains corpse because it has no magic. Why doesn’t a lesser dragon eat Zitain to become and elder dragon.
Why didn’t Kraggy eat Glints corpse it it had magic in it all consuming hunger and all which would have given Rylock time to kill it.
At least the community finally starts to undertsand that story writing and in-game implementations aren’t exactly the same or seem logical compared to what we know from one of these components. But now the sotry behind in-game things is just completely different.
Except that’s not the case.
first source: there’s a priory sylvari on the ship that states something along the lines of “many doubted it even existed, and now i get to stand on it!”. basically, most of the priory thought the zephyrites were just a fairy tale, because there were too few records and all of them unproved. kinda like how a scientist will doubt reported miracles, the priory doubts the zephyrites. or used to.
second source: right next to the sanctum sprint NPC, there’s an NPC that every now and then says that line i just mentioned. she says she’s never seen land before, and she’s clearly older than 6.
third quote: fair enough, but i still find it hard to believe that no one would’ve found out, or that many of the zephyrites born in the sanctum wouldn’t even bother stepping out of the ship, and then act all excited when they publicly land. the priory only has scarce reports of it, just like in the real world you have reports of big foot and nessie.
fourth quote: yes of course they had a sanctum, but not a flying one. that’s what annoys me. the story makes it sound that they took it to the skies after seeing glint’s body (possibly even with the aid of her magic), but various NPCs talk as if land was a foreign concept.
the problem with proving these sources is that they’re randomly triggered NPC dialogues, so unless you’re willing to stick around the sanctum for an hour or two, you’ll miss out on those lines.
Okay, here’s your problem Brunos:
The sylvari is talking about Zephyr Sanctum, LOR-478 and Magnus is talking about the Zephyrites.
In other words: People know of the Zephyrites, but there’s not much known of them (as, per the short story, they’ve been in hiding for centuries); people barely know of the Zephyr Sanctum, the one of many ships that the Zephyrites have.
For the second point, you’re making the mistake of believing that the “new sanctum” is the only one that the Zephyrites had to live in the sky. As mentioned, there are many ships, and even now only one touches down. It is likely that there is only one ship for each resupplying that lands, and even then, it is still possible that the old sanctum was in a humid or high-off-the-ground location, even if it was just a floating rock like Wizard’s Tower.
For the third point, again, it’s a fleet. So it is possible that Zephyrites born on the fleet wouldn’t ever have the chance until their specific ship is the one to touch down. As for no one finding out, again the fleet may be known but not necessarily Zephyr Sanctum – or alternatively, the cities made mention would be non-Tyrian, as the Zephyrites are not bound to Tyria like everyone else.
For the fourth point, again, where does it say it wasn’t flying. All that’s said about the new sanctum, the name of which isn’t even given so it may not be Zephyr Sanctum being referenced, is that it’ll be “above the mundane violence of the world”. This may mean that they have been flying in the air for some time, but thanks to Glint’s corpse, they can now go higher up and utterly without interaction of other races, including the Elder Dragons.
The people who are confused and complaining about plotholes in this thread are reading between lines where doing such isn’t intended – and mistaking pronouns.
You do misunderstand me Gnat, I’m talking about models, not existence in lore.
That is, the golems in Uncategorized Fractal being similar to modern golems doesn’t outright mean that they’re not ancient, simply due to the fact of reused models throughout 85% of Fractals.
Everything in Solid Oceanic Fractal has a fully unique unto that location model/texture, and is the only Fractal that has such. At best there’s only one or two new textures/model, some being utterly without new things.
Just a thought: With the new info that Elder Dragons are essentially magic sponges, could that mean the dragons going into hibernation are simply the result of each cycle simply thinking they had killed them?
Perhaps the only way to truly kill a elder dragon is to somehow remove the magic from a dragon’s body itself? “Cleansing” it perhaps?
IIRC, the first cycle only managed to put them to sleep, and they knew it. i imagined the dragons eventually might get saciated (at the cost of every living thing ever) and go back to sleep, like a milenar ciesta.
maybe they’re like Tyria’s reset button.
last cycle* we don’t know the results of previous cycles or how many there were sans many before the last.
Starving an Elder Dragon only puts them to sleep, not kill them, otherwise the Elder Dragons would have been killed last cycle thanks solely to the Bloodstone.
My point was more to the fact that in GW1 Duncan the Black was attempting to do exactly to the Great Destroyer what the Zephyrites worried someone would do to Glint.
So I am doubtful that Glint being purified (which btw is mind only as far as we know) has much to do with things.
If The Great Destroyer’s power could be harnessed, then the other dragon champion’s could be too so long as there is a corpse. The magic would be lesser the those two (GD and Glint) but possible nonetheless.
Khilbron was killed via the soul batteries. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to be killed (see Rurik’s dialogue; Joko’s inaibility to be killed by the Order of Whispers generation 1, and The Hunter in the Realm of Torment being unable to be killed).
However, nothing says Zhaitan’s a lich.
- you got the priory, which didn’t even seem certain that the zephyrites existed, and they’re the most knowledgeable people on tyria.
Source please, because LOR-478 merely states that the Zephyr Sanctum is unstudied and that their records state that the Zephyrites are of Canthan or Elonian descent. These records are clearly false or incomplete, but no where have I seen it said that the Priory didn’t even know they existed.
- you got the zephyrites acting as if seeing land is the most insane thing ever, and many claim to have never stepped on land before, only heard stories of it.
People keep saying this, but I haven’t seen such.
I’ve seen only two things which could hint at such: Dawn complains about being used to more humidity so her skin is drying out, and a sylvari mentions that no sylvari have met the Zephyrites before.
- you got other zephyrites claiming they used to live a normal life, but decided to join the zephyrites for one reason or another, and successfully did so. how did they even do that without the priory (or anyone) finding out about this huge ship recruiting people left and right? and how did people get on it without the others getting close to land?
It’s explicitly stated that the Zephyr Sanctum makes stops to cities to resupply. They don’t recruit, but accept on-comers with open arms. There’s a big difference. For all we know, their resupplying could be a small ship landing in a hidden space and the people walking to the city to buy things.
And again, what’s said is that the Priory does know of the Zephyr Sanctum, but doesn’t have much information on it. That’s a huge difference.
- and finally, you got the just-released short story that provides evidence that the flying sanctum is no more than 6 years old.
However, they 1) had a sanctum, 2) have been in hiding for hundreds of years (no more than 200 I’d imagine), and 3) as such were isolated from the rest of the world.
PEOPLE, there’s not as many plotholes as you’re convincing yourself of there being! And if I am wrong, please provide your sources. Because I’ve looked through everything and haven’t seen a single NPC state he or she never touched land, or that the Zephyrites have been in the skies for centuries – nothing beyond the wiki’s fan entry by Relyk whom himself admitted that he wasn’t clear on the lore.
Interesting observation about retrieving magic from dragon corpses there – but Glint was unique in that she’d been cleansed by the Forgotten. Without a similar ritual, I don’t think I’d trust magic retrieved from Zhaitan’s corpse not to retain its corrupting properties.
Which does naturally suggest a course of action, mind you. :P.
I have one thing to say about your mention of this:
Duncan the Black and the Great Destroyer.
It was previously presumed by some that he was after the Great Destroyer’s soul, given that Duncan was a ritualist mechanically, but what if he was after the corpse to do what the Zephyrites feared others would do with Glint’s body?
Now I wonder if people have bothered going after the Destroyer of Life, the Destroyer of Worlds, Dragonspawn’s, or Tequatl/Claw of Jormag (or other dead Zhaitan champions) whose bodies weren’t destroyed upon death.
Granted, trying to take power from an Elder Dragon itself is a different situation, but it nonetheless creates a possibility and I doubt that groups like the Inquest wouldn’t risk it when they’re after studying dragon corruption anyways.
I ran across Gulik Oddson at Killeen’s grave in Fields of Ruin the other day. I haven’t read the GW2 novels, but his dialogue heavily implies that he was romantically involved with Killeen, making it a Norn-Sylvari relationship.
He wasn’t, as far as we know. Killeen was a kind of person who just grew on people. TVtropes would refer to such a person as “moe.” And Gullik indirectly caused her death, so he feels guilty.
People, the lands east of the Blazeridge belong to the Blood Legion, not Ash.
Blood Legion’s capital is as Aaron said known as the Blood Citadel, and it lies east of the Blazeridge Mountains (not in the Blood Legion Homelands).
East, across the Blazeridge Mountains, Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer controls the lands of the Blood Legion.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Legions_of_the_Charr
Any and all information of the location – and in fact, existence – of Ash Legion’s capital and homelands is unknown.
Technically, as far as I know, there isn’t a single mention of the ship being made a long time ago. And even then, the Zephyr Sanctum could have existed for a long time, just not as a flying ship.
Wiki shouldn’t be taken for granted. The best we had was that the Pale Tree heard of it, but no sylvari had been on it. But this doesn’t mean it was centuries old.
Interesting. Some things of interest that weren’t mentioned:
“They [Brotherhood of the Dragon] forged an alliance with her and let her into their minds.” – an interesting tidbit unknown before, not entirely surprising or relevant (at the moment) though.
“We hid ourselves away for hundreds of years, helping her as we could and keeping her secrets.” – So where did they hide for presumably 200 years (as Ogden says the last of the dwarves turned within 50 years), given later wording, seems that they secluded themselves to the Crystal Desert (“I write with some confidence that once we leave this forsaken desert landscape, I will never return.”)… Would make sense given ties to Glint.
“Dragons consume magic, but they do not destroy it. They hold it within themselves like a sponge holds water.” – VERY interesting fact about Elder Dragons. We knew that they reduced magic, but the fact that they merely hold it within. Given what could be done to a mere champion of the Elder Dragons, what about Zhaitan’s corpse? Or that of other dragon champions?
Now, my biggest question about this:
The Brotherhood of the Dragon protected Glint’s children, which have yet to be heard from or about since GW1. Is it possible that the Zephyrites are harboring her children, protecting them from the influence of the Elder Dragons (mainly Kralkatorrik)?
You all should asked first if Arenanet is allowed to even bring back Cantha into the game in the first place? If NCsoft still veto Cantha?
From what I’ve heard, the NCSoft official who said no Canthan district is no longer part of NCSoft. May be wrong, but that should open things up. Especially if there’s a redesign of Canthan elements.
As far as I can see, any way they go they’ll be entering sea that is notorious for Dead Ships and sea dwelling Risen.
Zhaitan’s dead by this time and the risen are ever decreasing. I doubt that Dead Ships are a huge problem now.
The REAL question is how it gets pass Izz-al-Din, that’s rather shallow waters there.
Unless Durmand is older than Malaquire, or he’s now in hiding, I find that unlikely given how I believe it’s said that he’s dead.
The golem isn’t actually good proof, Delusions. If you go to Rata Pten, you may have a chance of one of two events – one being a giant spider, the other being an ancient golem. This ancient golem shares modern designs.
It’s most likely that ArenaNet just didn’t want to fully design new models. I mean, the only new things in the Fractals are the places and nearly everything you face in the Solid Oceanic Fractal (and except for the Jade Maw and its tentacles, that’s just a recoloring to green!), as well as the Imbued Grawl Shaman and colossus.
They do say that they periodically land at cities to restock supplies. So I imagine that they buy non-perishable foods (or as best as they can) and have some of the smaller craft in their little air fleet of a dozen airships land frequently to restock foods.
So while reading the novel Sea of Sorrows, in the second and third chapters (at least, haven’t currently made it further), Kaineng City is mentioned many times as where the ship Cobiah is on trades at. Multiple times even, and it makes mention of him exploring the maze-like streets of Kaineng City.
Here’s the thing though:
Emperor Usoku is credited with spending millions to increase Canthan military, uniting the Luxon and Kurzicks, expelling non-humans, and finally closing off Cantha’s borders. The last would at least heavily imply no foreign ships being allowed to dock. The date credited to this is 1127 AE – whether that’s when Usoku took reign, started the campaign, or ended it isn’t really clear (doubt he did all that in a single year!), but nonetheless the novel of the mentioned events i 1219 AE – a good 90-some years after the date given.
And given the number of times this is mentioned, this doesn’t seem to be an oversight. So does this mean that Cantha’s borders opened up sometime after 1127 AE and Zhaitan’s rise?
Thoughts?
I doubt that the Six Gods usurped anyone while on the world.
There’s really nothing to indicate that the new information we have gathered by looking past the lies of Thaddeus LaMounte’s work History of Tyria Volume 1 (wonder what Volume 2 says given that Vol. 1 covers from “beginning of time” to the Cataclysm) and considering ancient races’ history of the world.
Of course, nothing really denies it, but it relies on the new truth being just as wrong as the old truth.
I find that unlikely for two reasons:
1) Original human history says that the Six Gods created the world. The information we have now being discovered by digging into other races’ history is showing that the world existed before the Six Gods did on the world.
2) The developers told us from an out-of-universe context that the Six Gods came to the world rather than being from it.
The issue FlamingFoxx, is that the previous Elder Dragon rise in which Glint was known as Glaust, is before the Six Gods came to Tyria – or during, at the very least – given our current knowledge.
We don’t exactly know when the Six Gods came to the world still, but it’s at least heavily implied that they weren’t around before the previous ED rise. As if they were, that would mean humans were too.
It’s never said the Dream is part of the Mists. I and others have speculated such due to the similarities between the two.
I wouldn’t be so certain of that Aaron. It could be seen that way, but that final “there” in the paragraph could simply refer to Fractals of the Mists in general. The mention of other Fractals being distinct historical events doesn’t necessarily mean that Uncategorized isn’t historical – it may merely be that it isn’t a distinct event, or it may still be included.
I wouldn’t put too much effort into dissecting grammar though. Word choice may mean something, but at the same time, it may not.
It may be that since they have traveled the world (perhaps, they’re certainly not limited to continental Tyria), they may be used to seeing new species that they haven’t before, so the “ooo, ahhh, some new creature!” is probably lost on them.
That, or their last landing in continental Tyria was within the last 25 years, even if not announced.
Edit: OR they have seen sylvari outside of continental Tyria. Like perhaps Malyck’s tree?
The Bazaar of the Four Winds thread was talking about it the other day.
I really personally suspect that the Zephyrites are the “descendants” of the Brotherhood of the Dragon. And yes, what they fled was conflict of the races (maybe not greed and anger, but war at least – they’re pacifists it seems). They seem to share a similar concept to the Elder Dragons as the kodan do, except unlike the kodan, the Zephyrites don’t fight back against the natural balance-fixer-uper.
He never stated that Uncategorized happened in the past, just that it’s not a future Rata Sum- and seeing as it’s no Rata Sum at all, it could still be in the future.
That’s a good catch, but you should re-read his post again:
We’re not ready to reveal the whole truth about the Uncategorized Fractal yet, but I can tell you that it does not represent a potential future for Rata Sum. All of the other fractals represent discrete sections of the past, recreated. We have the ancient past, more recent past, and mythic/lost to history past, but there are no futures in there.
Every Fractal is a past, but this one is a past asuran megastructure – city or no.
My first thought was one of the six mega cities on par to Rata Sum in the Depths of Tyria, but that wouldn’t work unless the place rose rather than fell, which counters the insane man’s words.
So the only alternative would be an past now-gone (ancient or otherwise) city or megastructure of asuran making. Perhaps made in the same era as Rata Sum’s new form.
Volcanic and Swampland, though… those two are truly fascinating puzzles. The only place we see grawl and volcanoes together is to the north of Ascalon, so I’d tentatively put that one sometime before GW1, when that area was part of the human kingdom. Or, alternatively, in the Blazeridge Mountains- the name suggests they’re either volcanic or prone to wildfires.
There’s a lot of hints of dealing with destroyers here (that final boss especially, carying a Destroyer Bow just as the Iron March’s Flame Legion Shaman meta has a Destroyer Sword). Being this, I suspect it’s post-GW1.
^— It’s possible they added Harpies into the Maguuma despite their absence in GW1. In ‘Sea of Sorrows’ there is a bit where they are talking about the Maguuma and I think Macha mentions there being Harpies there (which struck me as odd)…
What I meant was that there’s no harpies in the Maguuma Jungle during GW2.
I haven’t read all of Sea of Sorrows yet.
Do you have something, anything, connecting Mordremoth to this fractal or is that mere fantasy?
Furthermore, Mordremoth could be either DSD, a dead dragon or another dragon entirely. What you claim to be known about Mordremoth is merely speculation.
Given the fact that the name is tied to an earth attack, it is likely the “jungle dragon” mentioned by Colin in conjunction with the Maguuma Jungle. We know there’s a dragon referred to as the “jungle dragon”, we know the Inquest apparently know of this, using Husks and Nightmare Hounds in ties with it, and we know said Jungle Dragon is related to the Maguuma, and finally we know that the name Mordremoth is used in the same manner as Primordus and Jormag in that situation.
But Mordremoth is most definitely not the DSD, unless what we know of the DSD is false.
Prisoners can be moved from anywhere really. And ettins also appear underground, not just in Kryta as far as I know. And keep in mind that since harpies can fly, if this place is abandoned, it is not unlikely that they’d simply make this place their new nesting ground. So the harpies could have come from literally anywhere.
My mention of the prisoners was more in reference to timeframe than location, though I spent more time on the location possibilities.
A human bandit with blackpowder hints at the last 250 years.
The comment on the harpies was for location, as again, there’s none in the Maguuma during GW2 (nor GW1, so unlikely though not impossible that there were any inbetween, unless they got forced out shortly before invading).
If this is God’s Eye, then apparently the Asura all evacuated the place except for one, before it crashed down. The dialogue of the raving Asura would then also make sense. But is the crater big enough for such a huge structure as the one we see in the Fractal?
I didn’t mean that the place is God’s Eye, but rather God’s Eye originates from this place.
Rata Sum was allegedly created when the Asura came upon this ancient Mursaat seat of power and setting up power generators etc in this location, they built and establish their new home capital.
NOTHING tells us, or even properly hints to us that the ruins of the Tarnished Coast the asura found were of mursaat origin. Let alone their “seat of power.”
Again: NOTHING
Though the possibility of this being a pre-Rata Sum is possible but to me seems… unlikely.
Well, it’s kind of in the cards although not documented, but those ruins of an ancient civilisation plus all the naming conspiracies seem to point in the direction it could very well have been the Mursaat, right?
Actually, not at all.
All we know about the ruins is:
An anagram name becoming “Mursaat” does not mean didly squat. As marnick.4305 said about the name Mordremoth, it doesn’t really amount to anything in canon lore.
Furthermore, we know that the mursaat haven’t been in Tyria for several thousand years until roughly before GW1, and those ruins aren’t that young based on appearances. The sole “all those naming conspiracies” holds 0 merit in the ruins’ origins.
It’s a standard male sylvari greeting. Nothing new to it. I don’t think Treesong is the song Fear Not This Night, but something more metaphorical, and likely akin to the Christian saying “may peace be with you” at the end of mass.
Could it be from a previous surfacing? Keep in mind that Rata Pten predates the Cataclysm – and in turn predates the asura’s forced surfacing in 1078 AE by over 7 years at least. Given Rata Sum’s original ruins (now in Soren Draa I think), it’s likely that the original Rata Sum and other Tarnished Coast ruins were shared with Rata Pten’s timeframe (as well as the ruins seen in Straits of Devastation near the SE vista in that cave).
Perhaps this is a hint to why those surfaced asura disappeared and all known knowledge of them is lost.
But it’s peculiar to see that each fractal is about Tyria’s past. That means even Snowblind Fractal is of a past event. Which has got me thinking: When Jormag awoke, there was a multi-year (I think 5 years) blizzard occuring. Perhaps the blizzard faced in Snowblind Fractal is a recreation of that?
Also, interesting categories for the Fractals to be determined by. “Mythic History” is clearly Cliffside, but the question for what fits into “Ancient History” could only be determined by what consitutes as “ancient” in regards to history, but I’d guess at least Urban Battleground and Solid Ocean is such. Snowblind and Underground likely constitute as “Recent History.” So where do Uncategorized, Swamp, Volcanic, and Aquatic fall under, I wonder?
Nonetheless, this certainly changes the view on Uncategorized, brings more questions why Dessa freaked out (maybe she witnessed this event itself, though that would put it as happening between ~1230 AE and 1302 AE), and explains why although similar there are noticeable differences in the layout between Uncategorized and Rata Sum.
Very peculiar indeed.
Edit: Reading Zaxares’ post, perhaps this forced them to go into the depths, but I think such a grand event would be denoted in their race’s history nonetheless; currently there’s nothing to suggest that the race as a whole was on the surface prior to 1078 AE, so Rata Pten and co. ruins are atm highly likely to be a mere offshoot/colonization. But the whole race once being above the surface is certainly possible, though if going back far enough then the asura have hardly advanced in technology).
Ah! But wait, there’s those prisoners to consider too, and the harpies. Given that this is a past event, it can’t be in the Maguuma as there are no harpies there. The closest there were are in Kryta but that is, as far as we know, a recent predictament. So the location of the Uncategorized Fractal would suggestively take place further east than the Maguuma Jungle. The presence of the Flame Legion tells us that it was within the past 1,400 years (roughly) for sure, and implies a placement around Ascalon or east of the Blazeridge. The presence of the Bandit and Ettin… that’s harder to consider. Human presence is significant enough to show that the asura had at least captured one, and it uses blackpowder.
And now a line of thought comes to mind: God’s Eye – an asuran experiment of unmentioned origins (as far as I’ve seen at least) crashed in Fireheart Rise. Perhaps related to this event, indicating that the fallen city was either north or east of Ascalon, close enough for this to fall where it did?
This is all considering, however, that the creatures beyond the golems and asura were not random additions by the asura.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
LOR-748 makes a return! It’s on the docks to access Labyrinthine Cliffs, specifically he makes a very interesting mention. Dialogue:
“Durmand-Priory-Logographic-Observation-Recorder. Submit-your-query-topic.”
-> “Zephyr Sanctum.”
“Begin-Output: Due to infrequent appearances, Zephyr Sanctum is largely unstudied. Records indicate thakittens residents are humans of Canthan or Elonian descent.”
->-> “More…”
“Begin-Output: The Zephyrites are govern by three Aspect masters – Wind, Sun, and Lightning – and a Master of Balance, who epitomizes all three elements.”
->“Bazaar of the Four Winds”
“Begin-Output: The bazaar migrates, spontaneously organizing at random intervals. The bazaar attracts nefarious merchants as well as crowds of shoppers.”
->-> “How so?”
“Begin-Output: To avoid drawing the attention of enforcers, the bazaar is short in duration and occurs at remote locations. It has a chaotic, fast-paced culture. Anything goes, attracting exotic vendors from all across Tyria.”
->“Ellen Kiel or Evon Gnashblade”
“Begin-Output: Captain Ellen Kiel, a veteran Lionguard, and Captain Evon Gnashblade, owner of the Black Lion Trading Company, have been spotted at Zephyr Sanctum.”
->“Sign out.”
Given everything I’ve seen, here’s my thoughts on the matter:
I suspect that the Elder was Glint, and the original “masters of heritage” were the Brotherhood of the Dragon. After the Great Destroyer’s rise, the Brotherhood was replaced by humans (as that was the second race which had the most influence from Glint beyond Forgotten). We’re told that the Elder was from before the rising of Orr, but nothing says it was after the sinking of it as well.
The Zephyr Sanctum seems to be traveling globally, able to get around the Elder Dragons due to being high in the air – though I imagine they still avoid Elder Dragon locations. Since there are humans of Elonian and Canthan descent, it’s likely that the Zephyr Sanctum has been to each since Joko and Usoku’s actions.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Old topic, repeat thread too but aw well.
I wouldn’t be so sure, Brom. Firstly, the Inquest have a full base in Rata Sum – which isn’t in the corner that the jail we visit in Uncategorized Fractal is. Furthermore, there’s a dialogue between two asura near the bank in Rata Sum where one questions the possibility of a golem uprising, the other says it’s impossible due to some limiter or another, and the first asks “what if someone manages to bypass that limiter” (paraphrased), to which the second responds: “Then either we die or bow down to our new golem overlords.”
So it’d be very much possible for Rata Sum to be destroyed via a golem haywire incident, and we know that the limiter or what-have-you can be bypassed thanks to not only the asura tutorial but an event right outside Rata Sum in Soreen Dra. Both cases caused by the Inquest.
Put two and two together, and Rata Sum can easily be destroyed/wrecked havoc by the Inquest. Moreso easier since they have a position within, and heavy influence on, the Arcane Council.
But as dunnberry said, why would they want to is very questionable.
Not really. There’s not a lot of inconsistencies, pretty much those I mentioned are the biggest there really are.
It’s pretty much a given that sylvari don’t know what happens to their souls, which is odd in a world with a definitive afterlife IMO. But some sylvari, such as Caris, believe that their souls go into the Mists like everyone else, while others such as a generically named sylvari near the cultural armor vendors in The Grove believe they return to the Dream.
My thoughts on the matter:
If their souls returned to the Dream of Dreams, then they must be indistinguishable from either the memories or the saplings in there. In the case of the former, the memories do not interact with the sylvari still dreaming, so that’s unlikely as they’re just reliving life (and if the fate of sylvari who die is to relive their life over and over again in the Dream so that others can witness it… that’s rather sad); on the case of the latter, this means that sylvari souls would lose all their memories and possibly be reborn again later on, which would count towards the kodan religious belief – and is very much possible.
My personal view on the matter of sylvari souls is that I don’t think they have any. The pure lack of seeing sylvari ghosts/souls, the fact they don’t know what happens to them upon death other than a dead body, and the fact that their race effectively came from nothing makes me think that they are akin to sapient elementals (similar to djinn, actually, except sylvari are solely plants whereas djinn can be water, air, or fire).
I’d like to know what the source for the wiki pages are… or if it’s utter speculation, or a leak from testers or some such.
Edit: Okay, it seems the article maker got a preview access to the stuff with possible permission to put it up, so it seems to be legit stuff. Given Morning’s dialogue (interesting name), the Zephyrites is an organization that was founded by the dwarves and taken over by the humans over time. I don’t think Glint’s necessarily related, and it seems that these Zephyrites weren’t in continental Tyria for a long time – since before the sylvari were born for sure.
The Zephyrites have interesting names Morning and Sunflower being two mentioned ones.
Though why the wiki is calling the Zephyrites a race is beyond me… they’re a nation at best, probably multiracial.
Also: Bazaar of the Four Winds is in Deldrimor Front, an interesting but logical choice. Given the map, seems to be located where the Ice Caves of Sorrows mission was (for GW1 players, I’m talking about the curving patch of land where the huge group of mursaat elementalists were). But hard to tell with only this.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Lordkrall is greatly incorrect with saying there’s only Foefire ghosts; those are limited to Ascalon, but spirits (even some within Ascalon) are across the continent of Tyria – a good number are in Brisban Wildlands and Harathi Hinterlands.
The Lunatic Court is made solely of ghosts and comprises all playable races sans sylvari.
There are pirate ghosts of all playable races sans sylvari (the Harathi Hinterland jumping puzzle).
There’s Gaheron Baelfire’s ghost in CoF explorable.
There’s a behemoth/wurm ghost in Aurora’s Remains. Among many human ghosts.
There are charr “ghosts” near Necromancer Bria’s mansion in Iron Marches.
There are several animal spirits in Malchor’s Leap – such as owls, wurms, and even tengu – that have names like Spirit of Sorrow, Spirit of Honor, etc. Then there are other ghostly owls, dolyaks, cats, and cows; as well as the Spirits of the Wild which include Wurm, Minotaur, Owl (former), Bear, Wolf, Wolverine, Snow Leopard, Ox, Eagle, Gorilla, and Otter (if not more). There was also a kraken spirit in GW1 – Zhu Hanuku. In GW1, we also saw centaur and charr ghosts (well, I suppose the charr ghosts bit is debatable).
Then as Aaron said there’s Oola’s spirit, various jotun spirits, and many more.
The only major race of importance we haven’t seen spirits of in any form are sylvari. And I find this very interesting.
You heard it here first folks: Sylvari have no souls! :P
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Pavess, you misunderstood me.
I was referring to the text in the dialogue box. Even if people pronounce the acryonyms as if it were a word, it’s spelled by the abbreviated version. It has nothing to do with the speaking out the word/letter.
The only reason to do so otherwise would be as a red herring, which ArenaNet is really bad at doing in GW2… despite my constant hopes.
You could see there are lots of dragons surrounding Zhaitan during the fight in Arah, though “Zhaitan” was defeated, his minions in Orr and other smaller dragons didn’t disappeared. That’s one proof and everyone knows it.
Just a minor clarification on this – that’s not proof at all. Nothing really indicates that just because an Elder Dragon dies, all of their minions should just drop dead, let alone disappear.
This can be applied to other dragon races such as the icebrood, my friend asked me why the Claw of Jormag “respawned” every now and then, and I answered him because it was just a game. ( Of course !? ) And yet he suggested that there are so many ice dragons to take the place as the lieutenant ( and there are many lieutenants ), and so does the “Jormag” of the ice dragon race.
Your friend is absolutely right in the Claw of Jormag bit, and it was confirmed with the Shatterer. For all three dragon champions in the open world, including Tequatl (which though it sounds like a unique name, it isn’t – it’s hylek for “one in darkness” or something, and “the Sunless” is the hylek name for risen – effectively, Tequatl the Sunless is roughly translated as “Risen in Darkness”), they are replaced by another dragon champion. Claw of Jormag, The Shatterer, and Tequatl the Sunless are merely ranks, not names, unlike Zhaitan or Jormag. It’s like the Eyes of Zhaitan minions – there’s dozens of them.
The dragon champions aren’t respawning, pre-existing ones are just taking their place.
However, there is only one Elder Dragon per force. They are the “makers” of that force.
And the fatal flaw in your friends theory is that fact – the Elder Dragons themselves make the energies that allow corruption into risen, icebrood, etc. With Zhaitan gone, there’s no more new corrupted draconic magic coming. Though the risen are still present, they are slowly being hunted down and they have a limited amount of magic to corrupt with, which is ever reducing as more minions are killed off. At least everything we’ve seen during the personal storyline (particularly the Order of Whispers and Asura storylines) tell us this.
The cycle is rather simple:
Elder Dragon eats magic. Elder Dragon twists magic. Elder Dragon uses twisted magic to twist physical matter. Physical matter that’s twisted become minions. Minions siphon twisted magic from Elder Dragon to create more minions.
Remove the Elder Dragon from the equation, and the minions are siphoning from a limited resource when they corrupt more things. Eventually they run out, as they themselves cannot make more, not even the strongest of dragon champions.
Again, by all indication that we’re told and given, with nothing to support otherwise and we were outright told by developers that certain dragon champions siphoned into their respective Elder Dragon (Drakkar, the Dragonspawn, and the Great Destroyer), but utterly nothing shows that minions themselves can corrupt magic – the closest we get is the Mouth of Zhaitan, which just sends the magic to Zhaitan himself so that doesn’t count.
@Shael: I’d hardly say 2-3 zones. Not GW2 sized ones. There’s barely room for a city-sized zone or a Southsun Cove sized zone between LA and Kessex Hills.
@Mad Queen Malafide: What used to be half of D’Alessio Seaboard, more or less. Hakewood and the Temple of Tolerance would be in that fogged area, and that may or may not be under tengu control.
All we really know about that area is that the tengu are now blocking access to it from Lion’s Arch (though not from Garrenhoff!). Given the dialogue of the merchants nearby, it seems that the blockade was relatively recent.
@Aaron: Huh, you know what? I never realized that Garrenhoff was placed just west of that GW1 nameless town. What we see in GW1 would effectively be right on the other side of the closed door in Garrenhoff.
However, what Malafide was referring to was asking if the tengu control the area they’re blocking off. Which is currently unknown.
As an addendum to Aaron’s post:
The Movement of the World is the original “set up lore” for GW2. A lot of it has been changed, including but not limited to:
Yes, that excerpt was indeed referring to the Durmand Priory, however the origin story has been changed form being named after Durmand but not founded by him, to being named and founded by him. However, there is an NPC who claims Durmand was the one who rescued tomes and texts from Lion’s Arch’s flooding which would place him at an incredibly old age (he used an old man model in GW1, and the flooding happened 150 years later).
I do believe this is the fourth thread on the topic in the lore forum. I blame ArenaNet’s poor search engine that doesn’t go past 3 months old.
@Henge: but what would S.C.A.R.L.E.T. stand for? Besides, Mai says Scarlet in the text, not S.C.A.R.L.E.T.
And to the AI thing… I don’t think ArenaNet would go the route of a rogue AI, that would be very unoriginal which isn’t what Anet wants- wait, Toxx. Nevermind. It’s been done in the game.
@Shael: Then the plan is terrible not working, because the dragon-focused group, the Pact, has yet to show their face in the Living Story stuff. They’re off busy with other things while groups who are more concerned with domestic issues (or both dragon and domestic issues and thus split attention between aiding Pact and taking care of domestic problems – such as the three orders) are the ones focusing on the LS stuff. Namely Iron Legion, Wolfborn, Lionguard, and somewhat Vigil/Order of Whispers/Durmand Priory. The Pact is independent of all of these, even though its origins lie in the three orders, during the invasion of Orr they expanded to the point of having lots of non-Orders resources and manpower.
Personally, I’m really hoping that the personal nemesis isn’t going to be dragon related – unless it is a female icebrood norn. Then that’d make an interesting enough enemy. Besides, why would the Flame Legion, Dredge, Aetherblades, and Inquest take advice from a dragon minion who are always immensely fanatical to the nth degree?
It is also possible that the humans in the concept art are not related to the Zephyr Sanctum, but solely used as easy placement of figures to represent the Bazaar of the Four Winds which seems to be Tyrian-centric.
Guess we’ll be finding out tomorrow, and then a little more in 2 weeks from now.
Actually, the bloodstones draw power from the dragons, making them hungry, at least as hinted in the Arah dungeon, so feeding the bloodstones, though probably inadvertently, may have kept the dragons sated.
Actually, the original Bloodstone was made to contain uncorrupted magic – that is, magic not influenced or coming from the Elder Dragons. The Six Gods then tapped one Elder Dragon to strengthen it – how it was strengthened or what effect it had on Zhaitan is utterly unknown to us.
There is no physical way for the bloodstones to have sated the Elder Dragons unless devoured by them in some means. Which empowering the bloodstone and only doing such would not do.
We don’t really know the mursaat history save from how they were viewed by others. After all, we believed the charr were cannibals until GW:EN. GW1 was all from the perspective of humans, and though yes, all of it is valid fact. Though before GW:EN, all human/charr interaction was highly negative, since the charr were genocidal fanatics with the ultimate goal of whiping humans off of Tyria as late as 3 years ago before the truce. Likewise, humans have a tendency of trying to wipe out other races (forgotton, charr, tengu, and other human nations of course), despite the fact that all humans are not evil.
I’m not saying the mursaat are good, they are probably generally evil from what we have seen. However, it’s what we have not seen that leaves things to question. Sentience in and of itself means that beings may or may not be evil. Mursaat are obviously sentient, thus capable of being either good or evil. The dragons are not sentient, their desire is to eat, thus their “evil” is just fact that they exist, which means Zhaitan and all his fellows can’t be described as either good nor evil. In order for anyone to be evil, there has to have been a possibility of being good.
Though it may never happen, it is entirely feasible within the realm of Tyrian lore that mursaat, or some mursaat may be shown in a different light. No case has been closed, not until we’ve walked the halls of the mursaat cities, read mursaat written history, and met mursaat from all levels of their society and culture, and even then it does not eliminate the possibilities of there being an oddball mursaat.
Your opinion is valid, but far from the only possibility.
I disagree on dragons not being sentient. They very much show sapience (the correct term, not sentient) through the use of their minions and we know that they learn through their minions, so they’re as intelligent as the sum of all their minions both current and past. That’s very smart if you ask me, and very sapient. And definitely sentient since they’re aware of their surroundings.
As to the potential of “good mursaat” – of course it’s always there, no different than there being a benevolent Elder Dragon or a good-willed demon. But there is absolutely 0% evidence to support or consider supporting good-willed mursaat as of the release of GW2.
Found it funny that you were quoting the wrong person when you were quoting me. Confused me at first.
Exhibit A, charr.
Yes, the raison d’être of mursaat has been to preserve themselves at all costs, with little concern for the other races. But who were the other races at the time? The jotun, who even at their peak were a brutal, invading race constantly at war and annihilating their neighbours, until they had conquered the Shiverpeaks and then turned on themselves. Seers, while though we never met more than a couple, the ones we did meet were quite happy to omit the fact that we were letting monstrous Titans into the world by our actions and seemed potentially in cahoots with the Vizier. For the sole goal of annihilating another race, at the cost of the lives of many, many others. Now since they are called seers, they may have been able to see the outcome, assuming they could perceive the future.
These races do not make good candidates for allies, unlike the current races that seem able to reason with one another (and only through extraordinary circumstances). Would the mursaat feel a responsibility to any of the other races? I rather doubt it.
The jotun weren’t always savage, actually. Prideful, yes; rulers, yes. But not savage or brutal.
And you presume the seers knew that 1) the Door of Komalie would be opened and 2) that it was holding back the titans. The only ones who knew this for sure was Khilbron and Glint, and the latter allowed it because she foresaw how much damage they would bring to be less than in actuality. Glint – and the seer should that one individual have known the two points above – viewed opening the Door of Komalie as a lesser and easier-to-defeat evil than the mursaat. Slightly off.
If the seer was in cahoots with Khilbron, why would it tell us to destroy the Armageddon Lords, which were Khilbron’s servants?
Funny you lack the mention of the good that the Forgotten and Dwarves did, they were most certainly FAR better than the jotun – whom, I should add, hadn’t fallen into civil war yet – and arguably the seers (though we know next to nothing of them and have only ever met one individual who is hardly a good enough sample to judge a whole race).
And uh, where do the charr fit in exactly? I would like you to know that they did not betray other races to save their own hides, and though they attempted genocide on humanity, it was with an actual reason besides “every race for themselves” – they wanted revenge on their leader being assassinated and their land taken (and they were led to attacking non-Ascalonians by a dark god via proxy).
Mursaat are capable of phasing and concealing things, so much of the life on the island may be invisible. (Speculation I’ll admit)
Er… that’s not exactly how it works. They can’t seem to hide their structures, only themselves individually. And besides, why would they conceal fauna?
Timeline note: the previous dragonrise was 10,000 years ago. They could have phased back into Tyria shortly after that which meant they existed mostly unbeknownst to the other races until around 300 years ago. Self preservation is a rather legitimate reason. Not saying what they did was good, it was rather evil, I agree with you. But again, it could be “ends justify the means” would have been their reasoning. Or that they didn’t see other races as at all significant of a loss (similar to the jotun, seers, charr, humans, and historically the asura).
they don’t have sex.
Anet themselves confirmed this as incorrect. It’s done simply for pleasure.
And the experience of doing more things in the world.
What ski jumps are you even talking about? And how is this lore?
Undouble, you apparently didn’t do the interrogation for the Flame and Frost bit – the Flame Legion allied with the dredge out of the persuasion of a third party individual (identity unknown) with the intent of utilizing the dredge for their technology and as additional footsoldiers, and then after the dredge fulfilled their role, Flame Legion intended to enslave them (this bit was only really told to male charr though). The dredge on the other hand wanted magic to further their technology, and were similarly persuaded by this third party individual to use Flame Legion’s magic.
As for the Inquest and Aetherblades, the origin of their alliance is unknown still, but their goals are known – to take a seat in the Captain’s Council (LA’s government). As for the airships – they stole them from the Pact and modified later, which you’d be able to figure out if you did the full storyline or went to Orr, though this was a fault on ANet’s part as they never really showed this in game but rather in a blog post.
Your “stepping stones to flight” is part of the personal storyline. And yes it is magic, actually. Well, magitech.
Shield of the Moon storyline focuses upon male and female sylvari lovers. The Green Knight storyline also has male/female lovers (including a second male trying to woo the first female, though the first male is never actually seen as he’s dead before the storyline began), as well as male/male.
As for why there’s so many more homosexual sylvari than heterosexual sylvari when relationships are shown, ArenaNet wanted to emphasize that sylvari just love to love, no care for the physical act. But there are indeed heterosexual sylvari, and it’s highly likely that there are sylvari who fall in love with other races (be they of the same gender or not).
It’s not really part of the personal story, but stems from it. Basically GW2 was released with 3 different storylines – the personal storyline, the open world storyline, and the dungeon storyline (and has since added the Living Story). Said three storylines are a;; parallel (with the dungeon one starting later than the other two). And the new living storyline begins at the end of all three.
The only one that you really affect is the personal storyline. Currently, that is.
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