No one knows the life span of a djinn. Heck, they could live for thousands of years as far as we know. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that some of the elder ones can grow to travel and expand their horizons past what they once protected. IDK where I’m going with this, just saying though.
Zomorros speaks of the karka as if he’s seen them once before – being long ago when the continents were a different shape and the world emptier. To me, this indicates that djinn can live for a VERY long time.
Also, I do not believe that djinn are born bound to protect anything or bound to any location. Powerful wizards are capable of binding them to protect things, but they’re free willed and sentient elementals in their most basic description, and the only cases of seeing djinn bound are when powerful wizards bind them. The closest counter would be the djinn who protect the Elon during Nightfall (Deliah or w/e her name was and her companion Water Djinn), but nothing really says that they’re not protecting the Elon merely by pure choice and can stop whenever they so wish.
What was meant with “racial expansion” is “racial focused expansion” – like how there was so much focus on Orrian history and the sylvari with Zhaitan (sylvari got the most focus out of all five races when fighting Zhaitan, overall). So the Kralkatorrik expansion would have a lot of focus on charr NPCs and lore, Jormag’s with norn, etc. But it wouldn’t be limited to players of those races.
There was an interview a long while back where Jeff Grubb was asked if asura would experiment on themselves and turn them into cyborgs. Jeff responded with cybornetics wouldn’t be unlikely, but not on themselves and would be more common as prosthetics in “a world with too many swords.”
I used this for my own ranger’s background story, who lost an arm and now has an asuran prosthetic (so it’d be rather golem-looking of an arm).
I feel like misogyny in the GW universe is very forced. The parent cultures (Norn and Charr) do not have any misogyny and there is no indication it has ever existed in the past, yet the Sons of Svanir and the Flame Legion are like “Oh one member of our species who happened to be female defied us, it is time for MISOGYNY” which makes no sense unless misogyny was already present in the culture to begin with.
It’s seldom said, but so is the Flame Legion’s history for that matter, but it’s said a couple times iirc that the Flame were always a bit anti-female. They just used Balthea and her entire movement of female warriors (mentioned in the Ash Legion storyline if you talk to NPCs – also mentioned that Kalla’s underground movement was a continuation of Balthea’s own iirc) as an excuse to ban all women.
Female and children jotun are hidden away, as they’re considered each jotun’s tribe’s most prized aspect or some such. Was explained in the lore blog post on them a while back.
Pretty sure they were. The Stone Summit aren’t really much to go foreign except in dire situations like being exiled (which they were after Prophecies). Plus, you got Flame Djinn that act similarly to the Sorrow’s Furnace ones in the Catacombs of Kathandrax, and there were the blue djinn (which would be what Zomorros is – a water based djinn) in the Far Shiverpeaks.
They’re not as common in Tyria as in Elona, but they still seem to be natural there – but only fire and water based djinn, no air-based djinn (the yellow).
No, actually, he doesn’t say that. He’s asked which he thinks would be the most likely next dragon, he responds with saying who he t hinks players would enjoy seeing next – and he answers with Jormag, Kralkatorrik, the “jungle dragon” and the deep sea dragon (in that order) and stresses “that’s not necessarily the storyline we’ll go with” and the interview even comments about how Colin 100% completely dodged the question.
The Actual Interview At 15:30
(Yet another case where WP’s videos skews people’s knowledge on the matters)
I think what Thalador was getting at was that the ruin designs are also found in the Depths of Tyria, where the asura lived, so it may be that the dredge didn’t dig, but found a tunnel that was originally asuran.
Though while I think the two may be connected, I doubt it’s asuran in origin. Likely an unmentioned underground (or simply very old) race that got wiped out in the last ED rise (and the ruins sunk in Tyria).
I think that the Elder Dragons can be turned into an interesting plot device to focus on if done right, the issue is that ArenaNet doesn’t give any of their main villains a lot of screen time, and didn’t really touch on the backgrounds of the Elder Dragons in the story thus far.
White mantle had a lot of screen time, so did Shiro and Abbadon, the Vizier had -some- but not as much as the other two.
Oh yeah, the dervish chick that worshiped Abadon had a ton of screen time until we entered realm of torment, she was in every mission (her talking at least) and a large sun of quests spoke about what her and her forces were doing.
Uh, yeah, I was talking about in GW2. GW1 did their villains fairly well, especially better than GW2.
I get the idea that Zhaitan was meant to be a “hidden face of evil” kind of thing, but they really didn’t give any one enemy enough screen time. Caudecus got the most, and only if you’re a human noble who regretted not joining the circus! Wait, scratch that. Kudu got the most – 2 dungeons, and 1 storyline. But hell, Canach has gotten more screen time than most villains in GW2, and he’s not even a true villain. Faolain and Caudecus and the mysterious personal nemesis have a chance of getting good screen time, but honestly if they wanted to make Zhaitan and the Elder Dragons a better nemesis, they probably should have made the Mouth of Zhaitan and/or Soveriegn Eye of Zhaitan a re-occuring enemy from the attack on Claw Island (have them kill off the mentor) all the way to Arah (rather than having 2+ of each in the storyline with dungeons). They had enough personality to act in Zhaitan’s place as a bit of a “speaker of the dragon.”
My biggest issue with villains in GW2 is that they don’t give me a reason to care. It’s too similar to Galrath in GW1 – I only cared because it was a fun quest and gave good rewards for Prophecies quests. Why care about Faolain, or Caudecus, or Gaheron, or Zhaitan? shrug Your bet is as good as mine. “Cuz they be evil and NPCs told you to care” is pretty much all I get. I actually cared about taking out Blightghast the Plaguebringer at Claw Island, cuz that kitten killed my mentors (RIP, you should have lasted longer), but that’s just about it.
@Narc and Thal on catacombs entrances:
In GoA, iirc, it was said that they entered via Skull Gate (which is at Skuill Plaza) when the guard shifts were changing; and that’s where they exited too. There is, again iirc, mention of openings in the cliff to let the place air out, but it’s never said one can actually enter the catacombs here – for all we’re given from my memory, it’s just a few holes that lets out heat in the middle of the summer.
@Ludovicus – I don’t know how you can claim to know the complexion of a baby for a fictional race that we have only ever seen one of and in it’s undead form.
I am with Goatsjugsoup on this. Who are we to say how a baby look of another species.. heck look at the real world.
The Giganticus Lupicus holds aspects of real actual dogs (well, a certain dog, I could never remember the name). In comparison of the G-Lupe and said dogs, they are more akin to the adult than puppy.
Can we be certain that it’s not a youngling G-Lupe? Of course not. However, given how even charr take aspects of cats in terms of how the young and adult differentiate, it wouldn’t be hard to guess that the G-Lupe would be the same. It’s still conjecture, but it’s far stronger conjecture than saying it’s a baby G-Lupe just because it’s smaller than the bones that people once thought to be G-Lupe bones but, in fact, look nothing like the G-Lupe seen in Arah (the G-Lupe clearly holds canine features in the head, the bones were either tusked (of which there were both large and smaller skulls, the smaller still being larger than the G-Lupe head) or serpentine/reptilian in appearance – they just don’t match).
Technically, it’s what Elonians who fled to Tyria know of the situation.
As for underground movements against Joko in Elona – there is one. It’s called the Order of Whispers.
That’s not Dylan’s grave in Ebonhawke. That’s Cordelius Thackeray, who lived from 1091-1106; likely one of Gwen and Keiran’s children.
Or Kranxx was just pulling a joke, though what you said is more likely imo. But now he’s supposedly gone (no body recovered afaik), so we can’t go asking.
Anyways, I always presumed it was via asura gates – not the one seen under Kamadan with the quest to get to EotN as I maintain the belief that the Factions and Nightfall quests were merely mechanical (discussed in length in another thread before, no need to repeat it imo), but one could have easily been made since EotN (60 years is long enough).
That, too, is actually just speculation Thalador. Based on the thought that the skeletons belonged to the GL, myself and others at the time on the wiki scoured for possible locations for the gw.dat descriptions – but nothing really says those locations made it into the game.
Well, I don’t think the apostate knew about the dragons. And one NPC’s opinion is hardly a solid evidence.
I fail to see how the existence of the Elder Dragon holds any relevance on the destructibility of a god’s very essence.
And no, normally one NPC’s opinion is hardly a solid evidence, however…
But the dragons are different, they eat magic but they do not become more and more powerful as they do, they just eat it. No other being is able to eat magic.
How do you know this? Who is to say they don’t become more powerful?
Besides, keep in mind that they’re also constantly exuding the magic they consume, and twist, in the form of corruption. Minion making and twisting the environment. So they’re both consuming and exuding magic. And we know that they become weaker as they don’t consume but continue exuding. Logically speaking, if continual exuding weakens, then continual consuming would strengthen. Along with this, Jormag needed to consume Sons of Svanir magic in order to gather strength to awaken (which he did via Drakkar).
And wrong. Imps consume or at least absorb magic – and they grow, both physically and in strength, as they do so.
So you’re saying there’s more evidence stating that Melandru is alive?
Why isn’t this place right to discuss this?
Isn’t this thread about the disappearance of the gods?
What I’m saying is that there’s nothing solid to indicate that Melandru and Melaggan is the same.
This isn’t the right place because the topic is about where the gods are hiding, not whether or not Melandru and Melaggan is the same – something which can neither be proven nor disproven – by extension of what Narcemus was saying about not discussing the validity of the comment, which is the only point of evidence besides human belief towards Melandru=Melaggan – and it’s not able to be disproven because the only thing to point against it is quaggan belief. We know almost nothing of Melaggan other than it being the quaggan goddess of the bounty of the sea (which despite quaggan comment, is similar to the goddess of both flora and fauna, as that’d include the bounty of the sea).
People do have a tendency to speak of going back to their ancestor’s home when they themselves have never been there. It’s a figure of speech, so I wouldn’t take those words to be full out proof she’s was born in Elona. Though it’s far from impossible if it was via means unlike the common populous.
@Dash: That’s just an IP speculation that was added to the GW2W article. One of the many reasons why the GW2W is slowly becoming kitten for lore source. Anyone and everyone can add whatever they want, and there’s far too few people to really maintain the lore quality side of it, and there’s so many different formats across the wiki that makes it just look like one big clusterkitten.
That speculation came from it just being smaller than the GW1 skeletons. The shape of the body indicates it being an adult, like Ludovicus said. I doubt the IP really looked into the GL’s appearance.
@Afya: No one knows, sadly. Probably a group of ancient large species wiped out by the Elder Dragons cycles ago. There’s three different styles, one having a draconic appearance (sea serpents like Ludo said?), another with tusks that looked more mammilian in shape, and a third set we never seen a skull of.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
We’ve seen Kormir absorbing Abaddon’s magic due to the gift that the gods gave to her. But a god’s magic it’s not indestructible, it is jut too much to dissipate without issues like realm + continent blasting explosions on its own.
I do not believe Abaddon to be an eternal god. There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here. And I believe that while the power he uses cannot be destroyed, he may be supplanted, as he supplanted his predecessor.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Apostate#Reward_dialogue
All evidence and in-universe research points to that their power is indestructible. That is why it was going rampant and manifested after Abaddon’s death.
A dragon eating a mirror that ports you to places doesn’t gain the ability to port things. We saw how Kormir absorbed Abaddon’s power via the gift of the gods. And she was indeed a proper vessel for such power. But we know the dragons do not get imbued in the magic they eat. My theory is that they just eat it for their nourishment. This would mean that a dragon could eat a god without becoming one.
How Kormir was able to absorb Abaddon’s power is never really shown. The avatars said words, but we saw no actual physical action taken, same with the blessing. I’d like to believe there was something, mind you, but nothing really proves that a dragon couldn’t absorb that power to empower himself.
Besides, we know that taking in magic empowers someone. Duncan the Black, Mallyx the Unyielding, Shiro Tagachi, Gaheron Baelfire, Kudu, and more have all either done so or tried and was considered a thread for trying.
There’s more evidence stating that Melandru is Melaggan than stating that they’re separate beings. (see the PAX reference bellow the wiki article) http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Melaggan
A slip of the tongue is hardly what I’d call strong evidence, but that’s not something to really discuss here.
@joaoantunes.5367:
You could go to options and change the key which is assigned for taking screenshots in the game. Would be nice to see it, as I’ve never seen it nor would I know where to look.
But mechanically speaking, the Fractals uses the same map – just like how in GW1, you would be able to see the various outposts in the Realm of Torment from each other, you’d be able to do the same with the Fractals if you can find the proper angle and view. They’re each just floating blocks of reality within the Mists, so it isn’t unfound for them to be close to each other.
However, this was in the Batte Isles, on the open ocean and under Canthan/Zaishen reign. Charrs fit in because it is Ascalon-themed and they conquered it, but the isle itself is 2 continents away from ascalon. So.. bit of a lore collision.
Originally, prior to Factions, the guild halls were in continental Tyria iirc. It was when Factions came out that guilds got banned from having guild halls in continental Tyria.
People tend to wear their ancestor’s armor in fantasy stories a lot, as well as using their ancestor’s weapons. It’s not unusual, so I don’t see why Miyani would be automatically exempt from this.
The main issue with your hypothesis Uruz, is that the elder races don’t have a shared consciousness. None that we knew of at least – the dwarves do now after undergoing the Rite of the Great Dwarf, but didn’t when flesh and blood. Secondly, this would be something really huge, and all knowledge the elder races had in relation had been recorded by the jotun and dwarves and now presented, so it seems unlikely that something so major and huge would be left unknown.
Mind you, there’s no way to disprove it, simply because it delves fully into the unknown – the unknown origins of the seeds, the unknown events of the last rise, the unknown other races that could have existed alongside the jotun, seers, mursaat, dwarves, forgotten, karka, djinn, and giganticus lupicus. But this also means there’s really nothing there to support it either. Of the known races, only the forgotten held any means of immunity to the Elder Dragons’ corruption, but they didn’t have a collective consciousness in any means.
Incorrect. It is said in the Speaker of the Dead story step:
Priestess Rhie: No one knows. Not into the Mists, that’s for certain. Perhaps they simply want to allow us to decide our own fates.
Meh, knew it was from Rhie, just mixed up which of the two instances she’s in that it’s said. 8D
@Ludovicus: The difference between us eating an ox and a dragon eating a god is that a gods’ magic is indestructible and the one who absorbs it gains that power of godhood, just as Kormir usurped Abaddon. So if the DSD ate Melandru, then the DSD would not only be an Elder Dragon, but a Dragon God.
Similarly, the Elder Dragons seem to gain strength as they eat more magic, perhaps this is indeed akin to simply not starving, but it’s really impossible to be certain.
Nonetheless, eating a god would definitely make it stronger than otherwise. And give it the domain of the god alongside the Elder Dragons’ own natural domain.
Either way, irregardless of Melaggan’s state, I doubt that Melaggan=Melandru in the first place.
Well this topic was supposed to be a fun way of sharing ideas. Not harping on ideas. I know that a lot of what I say won’t become a reality. But this thread is solely based on the sharing of interesting ideas. And at that note, you, Sir, are out of line. I am going to ask a GM to close this thread because we are now completely off topic. There is no fun in that.
My first post in this thread and I’m out of line by explaining your questions and answering your request?
Gotcha.
I think that the Elder Dragons can be turned into an interesting plot device to focus on if done right, the issue is that ArenaNet doesn’t give any of their main villains a lot of screen time, and didn’t really touch on the backgrounds of the Elder Dragons in the story thus far.
Also, the Dervish do use the powers of the Gods, however, i did not know that the Gods were “human”. There are Gods Present in Guild Wars 2. Couldn’t they use the power of these Gods also? I know that Kormir still exists in Guild Wars 2. Thus Your point is invalid.
Professions in GW2 are not, and will not be, race-restricted.
The Six Gods are unique unto the humans among the playable races. Dervishes, who’s whole lore behind them is based upon the gods, would not work with the charr, asura, sylvari, or norn. This is where the point comes in that Dervish cannot, will not, become playable. Not as they were in GW1 aesthetically for sure.
Besides, the biggest defining factor of the dervish – the avatar skills – had mostly manifested in the form of human elite racial skills, albeit greatly different than GW1.
Also, would you mind giving me a link to your statement informing us that “Guardians were created by using the skills (as in combat styles and such, in lore) of Paragon refugees from Elona and Monks”. I would like to see a link to where the developers said this.
There is another thread in which this was mentioned already. The origin is this interview primarily but not solely. Mechanically it took aspects from the paragon, dervish, ritualist, and monk. Lore-wise, it originates from the monks and paragons, as seen in that interview as well as in the skill names the guardian uses – such as Healing Breeze and “Retreat!” among many others.
And finally, this is a thread to see what you would LIKE Guild Wars 2 to add. Not a thread to explain why others ideas are not good. Tell me what you would like to see. If we go any further off topic, I will have to request to close the thread.
It is only natural for others to explain why others’ hopes won’t come to fruition when people say what they’d like, especially when we know it won’t happen. For whatever reason they may have.
Signed
Kylar Stern
The Dream exists independent of the Pale Tree, and supposedly predates the Pale Tree too. The White Stag, for instance, has direct access to the Dream of Dreams just like the Pale Tree does. And the Pale Tree is mentioned to be the Dream’s caretaker, unknowing of the Dream’s origins which implies that she herself merely found the Dream of Dreams and tasked herself with the caretaker charge.
@FlamingFoxx: During the Cathedral of Silence story step, Priestess Rhia (sp?) mentions that the gods’ location is unknown, but it is known that they are no longer in the Mists – which is where their realms reside. So it is far more likely that they are on a world somewhere, rather than their realms.
I remember reading that Miyani by the Mystic Forge is a Sunspear refugee. Not sure if it’s true… IIRC, it came from one of ANet’s now-removed blog posts, but my memory of this is vague, so I may be mistaken.
“Miyani is a Lion’s Arch vendor who sells mystic items for skill points and mystic recipes for coin. She also offers information about the nearby Mystic Forge. She is also the sunspear refugee who brought the djinn Zommoros with her when she fled from Elona.”
Honestly, I’ve never seen it mentioned that Miyani is a Sunspear refugee – and TBH, she couldn’t be. Descended from one, sure, but if she were an actual Sunspear refugee from Elona, then she’d have to be over roughly 190 years old as that’d be about when the Order of the Sunspears were disbanded by force by Joko – and it’s been about 50 years since the last Elonian refugee came to Tyria. And it doesn’t help that there’s no reference for that “fact,” and there’s no other mention of Miyani being a Sunspear on the wiki.
I’m sure it’s supposed to be that she’s descended from a Sunspear refugee. Given her dialogue, I’m more inclined to think that, though it can certainly be interpreted as Miyani having come from Elona herself, but honestly given the timeframe for refugees and Joko’s actions, I highly doubt she herself was a Sunspear refugee.
And let’s face it, the GW2W has so many lore errors it’s hardly worth considering a reliable source anymore – doesn’t help that the formatting across the wiki has about 10 different styles.
Most PoI have some lore behind them shown in the game in one form or another, a good number do not. There are no plans to add text to PoI name pop ups on the map though, none announced at least.
Drax, I know it is probably a separate issue (maybe not) but do you know anything about the sunspears in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings? Are they related to any of this somehow. I googled and looked them up on Wiki, but didn’t see much. Maybe I missed it.
The Sunspears sent to the Tomb of the Primeval Kings were there to investigate the disturbances. What happened to the whole is unknown, though Dunkoro’s son was among them and he was KIA’d.
Dunkoro: “Years ago, I sent my son to the Crystal Desert.”
Dunkoro: “There were reports of strange things in the Tombs of the Primeval Kings. Tentacles bursting through the stone.”
Kormir: “Abaddon.”
Dunkoro: “Yes. My son was reported missing and presumed dead. I blamed myself, for sending him off without enough forethought.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Pain_%28cinematic%29
As to what happened with the Sunspears, I suspect that those who didn’t live their lives as hermits and lone travelers like the Movement of the World says (“Those few Sunspears who survived passed on the teachings of the Order over the course of more than a hundred years, holding onto the tenets of a barely-remembered vision. They became wandering mystics, philosophers, and lone warriors in a world that chose to forget their presence. ") were likely absorbed into the Order of Whispers, since open warfare wasn’t really an option and the two hold similar enough origins, but are overall now wiped out.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Did Monks really blend with the Paragon to make the Guardian?
Yes. When the Sunspears and Paragons spread their teachings to other lands, Tyrians adapted these teachings with the monks to make a more combat-ready healer. Thus the guardian was born. The actual lore description by Jeff Grubb is on the GW2W site for Guardian:
With the turmoil in Elona and the spread of the Order of Whispers into other lands, more Paragon teaching showed elsewhere in Tyria. These teachings melded with other traditions, and over time, the guardians and their abilities can be found throughout the world and among all the races. They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity’s defensive nature and the charr’s desire to rule the battlefield.
“other traditions” including – perhaps among other things – the monk, as seen a bit in the interview this came from, and the in-game skills like Healing Breeze and the like
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guardian#Background
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/31/behind-the-scenes-with-the-guild-wars-2-guardian-massivelys-in/
Regarding the discussion on the priests – Gandaral, they do use magic… well, maybe not all of them. The thing is, they’re monks not by the tense of the mechanical profession of GW1, but by the tense of being people of holiness. Priests of Grenths are monks, but their profession is that of a necromancer. Priests and Priestesses of Dwayna are known to have healing magic, as well as healing alchemy in some cases, or just basic medical/first aid skills, so they may be “guardians” mechanically and “gw1 monks” lore-wise. Hard to really say.
Either way, the combative monks were irregardlessly merged in with the paragon to make guardians.
The Age of Giants isn’t even known to have occurred – Thruln the Lost says a few things which are wrong, primarily about the gods and humans, so the rest of it is called into question. Even then, as said the jotun knew of multiple risings – whether they survived multiple risings or learned of them from older cultures is questionable though. Issue is, we don’t know how old either the jotun, Giganticus Lupicus, or Elder Dragons truly are.
So really, there is no answer to that question of “which came first, the Elder Dragons or the jotun?”
You won’t likely get developer comments in this forum. Dev comments in lore threads are very very rare.
Anyways, the official statement from many interviews is that the Elder Dragons have “always been on Tyria.”
But “the Giants race” – you mean these guys or these guys or just generally gigantic races (jotun, ogres, etc.)? If the first, nothing implies they’re old (or rather, older than the last rise of ED). If the second, Elder Dragons by all indication (though we don’t know how old the Giganticus Lupicus are as a race). If the third, then again, all indication the Elder Dragons (jotun may have survived multiple rises, but again, “they have always been here” from the older 2009 interviews about ED).
Abaddon’s explosion of magic is something unique unto gods – we’re told via the Apostate that a god’s power is indestructible, but the mantle can be passed on; based from Abaddon’s death if the god is killed and the mantle not passed on, that power seems to go critical.
The Thaumanova Reactor Fallout is a different situation entirely. It was a reactor powered by chaos magic that exploded.
Elder Dragons, unlike gods, do not contain indestructible magic, they simply consume and exude magic. Magic itself, even in large concentrations, is not explosive or volatile, though it can make the land mobile in the form of elementals, by all evidence. Also keep in mind that Zhaitan was being starved for who-knows-how-long, effectively reducing the amount of magic within him.
Actually Arena-net didn’t fail us completely this time. This new system is highly improved over last two ticket systems, so I would relax.
It’s improved, but that doesn’t make it good.
All I’ve ever seen is basically what the NPCs during, after, and before the events say.
She’s a powerful and evil Necromancer who was alive during the Foefire – a criminal even then – who somehow managed to break the curse due to being a powerful necromancer. As seen from the event, and the heart nearby, she enjoys killing innocents and using their souls, and bodies, for her own means – allowing spiritual procession of the bodies by the shades she controls after she separates their souls from them.
Her history is pretty much blank. However, she is an incredibly interesting subject, simply for what she can do – and in turn proves can be done in the world. Spiritual possession, forced outer body experiences, breaking the Foefire’s curse (well, the mental side of it), etc.
Me and a guildie was really interested in this a while back. We sqoured the area, even allowed the defend event to fail. We got nothing other than the area being an ancient prison built by the dwarves using magic and mechanisms.
Very sad.
(P.S., he’s always there, doesn’t spawn/despawn; and you never kill the ancient Fleshreaver)
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Maybe its a PvE location within the Mists, and rather than making a new map or using the fogged world map (like what was done with Mad Realm and Fractals, the latter being a dungeon so makes somewhat sense), they decided to use the pre-existing map of the Mists.
Edit: NVM, mention of red team kind of kills that concept. Probably either a bug as suggested, or functions akin to the hearts that were in Heart of the Mists during the beta.
It would be interesting to see what would occur if we discover how the seers made the original bloodstone – and what the bloodstone is made out of. How would each race react? Would it be a desired means of weakening the Elder Dragons? I can bet that the charr would have no issue with creating another bloodstone, but the asura? They’d probably object to the nth degree.
It’s a shame GW isn’t a single player game – being able to go with making a choice that would affect all gameplay would be quite enjoyable for a plot device.
How the Elder Dragons became attuned to certain elements likely has to do with their origins – if not how they themselves were born/made, then how/why they became so threatening as they are now.
Sadly, this means we hold absolutely no indication of any clue to this. Personally, I hope it remains this way – something so old and powerful should keep its origins unknown, to continue giving it a sense of epicness which hopefully the other five Elder Dragons will restore after Zhaitan’s pitiful fall from tower (ba dum tsh – yeah, cheesy I know). It will hopefully keep things from falling into (pre-DC?) ME3 domain with how the origins of the Reaper was pitifully silly. And it’s good to have at least one thing kept guessing at.
I have two theories going personally.
First theory is that they’re coalesced magic given physical form and a sapient mind. This is mainly divulged from how they consume magic – creatures tend to consume what they are in order to stay alive. Just as how humans eat fiber, protein, and so forth; the Elder Dragons in turn would eat magic to maintain their magical bodies, and with magic being the origin of their bodies, wouldn’t need more physical things to maintain their body. This would have occured through the supposed natural ever-increasing magic of Tyria – since the Elder Dragons consume all magic in the world every cycle, the magic has to reform from somewhere. So I suspect that the Elder Dragons were made when there was nothing to consume magic, but it still kept growing, until it got to such a point where it began to take shape and the ability to corrupt, twist, and consume (literally and metaphorically) other things; their intelligence came from corrupting living beings, and learning all they knew – at first they would have been mindless beings of magic, but upon first corrupting a living being, they gained knowledge and mind, and as they corrupted more and more, their knowledge, personality, and so forth all grew, encompassing all they “consumed.”
This would mean that Primordus, who seems intent to kill rather than corrupt living beings based off of my observation, would be the most mindless of all Elder Dragons – the least strategic of them, too.
My second theory uses something Thalador mentioned already: Imps.
Imps, as seen via one of the hearts in Lornar’s Pass, grow as they consume magic of their element. Tkittenence of an imp – which looks not dissimilar to a magical egg – becomes attuned to the first elemental magic introduced to it, and grows as more of the same element is given – but dies when a different element is given.
Then take note of the imps’ appearance.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/56/Fire_Imp.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/8/88/Ice_Imp.jpg
Just two such imps. I’d say they look fairly similar in structure to this, wouldn’t you?
My second theory is that they’re basically the same kind of demon that imps are, but they’ve consumed so much magic over the eons that they have grown to immense proportions, where the world cannot sustain them for long periods of time anymore – forcing them to go into hibernation.
I’m not going to react to the (lore-related) content of what your saying.
So you ignore the actual topic of the thread then, to continue talking about my “bad actions” – I’m sorry, but that just sounds plain instigative.
On the Wiki you have a 6 month ban for not being able to communicate with people.
I won’t say anything of reddit – and I’m quite glad that I didn’t keep going there when it was shown to me now, and I’d have to say that I’m both honored and insulted that I’m a topic of hate there. Shows that people care about me enough to hate me. But on the wiki ban – you got the reason entirely wrong. I didn’t get ban because I wasn’t able to communicate with people. I got banned because me and another person (as Thalador said, Santax) had a spout which continued even after I tried reasoning and making amends with him. The nature of the spout was two fold – firstly, he put up speculation and misinformation as fact, I fixed it to keep it as facts and to keep the article with a single wording style reworded other parts of the article, and then he reverted me and I reverted him (a foolish action, I admit in hindsight). The second was that he told me to start discussions instead of “reverting” his actions (my first actions were never reverting), but he himself never started discussions unless he reverted before making a discussion. And when a discussion was ongoing, he always reverted – even irrelevant changes or by others – to his version. He even went against consensus time to time in order to put what he thought was best up on the wiki – which was, as said, often misinformation and against consensus.
I know this sounds harsh, but if people where saying that bout me I would try and do my best to change, but you seems to be so uncapable of selfreflecting it seems to be a lost case.
It’s got nothing about my capabilities – or incapabilities – to self-reflect. Honestly, I have so much kitten on my plate in real life that I don’t have the time to worry about how faceless usernames on the internet whom I’ll never meet nor know on a personal basis views me, when I am to them also just a faceless username on the internet whom they’ll never meet nor know on a personal basis.
Konig’s only “flaw” is that the 7+ years of incredibly active and beneficial contribution to the lore society may (rather: must) have eroded his patience to nonsense, BS, debunked but necro’d theories, wrong information or understanding, etc. His aggressive-looking way of handling such can be offending at times, but I of all people know it best that his intention is not to be a rude kitten… it’s become his semi-signature way of handling things over those 7+ long years of being involuntarily – and to his own protest – declared a lore god by some.
….You know, I don’t think I could have worded this any better myself, let alone come to this as a realization of self-reevaluation. I suppose this would be the case, and I’m going to close with quoting this.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
@mercury ranique: You really do know how to lay on the insults from the get go. Anyways, regarding how I see things about lore being black and white, well I’m not sure of the full context you’re referring to (I wouldn’t say I am that black and white about the possibilities, except for particularly annoying topics (like the god=dragon thingamajig) – and I can tell you I am far less black and white about it than certain individuals who post less than me here are), but regarding this topic, while I agree – mostly – with your “hierarchy of importance” I would have to say that it is my personal opinion that one cannot subjectively decide whether a piece of information is correct or not when there’s no implication to it being what it isn’t shown as.
Anyways, context for what Jeff Grubb was saying? This is the video at the start of the question, but what Jeff said was already quoted in this thread. The other interview, if I could remember where it was I would have posted it. I know full well that people used to theorize that Abaddon would return. Hell, I was among those who suspected he would return – through overpowering Kormir. But since Jeff Grubb’s statement I’ve since drawn back, because unlike those who constantly try to argue for debunked theories coughSixGodsareDragonscoughPaleTreeisaDragonChampioncough I move on. In this, I’d have to disagree with your claim that I’m “black and white about lore” – I just don’t ignore the facts and, apparently, have a wider range of remembrance about facts or where I can find them to reaffirm my knowledge.
And I’m going to have to outright call you out on the claim that GW2 lore only calls Abaddon a fallen god. Because it calls him dead too! In more than one place.
“This book’s title is “Good Gods: A Treatise on the Pecularities of Divinity”. The author emphasizes on the twinned nature of Lyssa and the “dead” or deposed gods, Abaddon and Dhuum."
“Exactly what I’d expect from the ancient temple of a dead god. "
This is what trahearne calls him: ’ Trahearne: Abbadon[sic], the human god of secrets, was cast out of Arah by the other deities, and his name was erased from history. Very little remained.’
(Dead means there is nothing left, he could be talking bout his temple, but i wouldnt call that very little that remains, cause its big and active and present). So It is my personal interpetation that he is talking bout the god himself.
Er… Trahearne was talking about the events of the Exodus, not Nightfall. “Very little remained” was referring to the knowledge of Abaddon in history.
(Fun fact: on a quick GW2W search, Abaddon is never called a fallen god – just forgotten or dead).
The entire question isn’t black and white and there is a lot of room for personal interpetation. Besides that. the freedom we have to see it in our own fantasy and through our own eyes makes us individuals.
I would agree with you – and if it were before Jeff’s statement, I would be still – but by now I think it’s rather proven that Abaddon is deader than dead.
And just because you can see it in your own fantasy, doesn’t make it canon. That only makes it fanon. And despite being a writer of fanon myself, I keep a fine line formed between canon and fanon.
P.S., I hardly consider myself the “biggest authority on lore” and I am hardly insecure – if I was insecure, I’d actually be working to agree with everyone, not ensure that they get the facts where there are such.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Just out of curiosity, where is stated that Jormag hand-select his Claws?
It’s one of the NPCs near Rojan the Penitent at where the Claw is fought.
And until creators put stuff down into some intentional medium of virtual existence it’s really only true for that creator and not for anyone else.
I believe that an interview or written document counts as an “intentional medium” – why does it need to be virtual? If the maker says its the case, it’s the case. Arguing otherwise is just fanon discontinuity
A writer can dream up all sorts of things in his head, but unless one of the mediums of his storytelling is, say, interviews, then it doesn’t really matter.
Why does it not matter? You say this, but give no reasons. It’s what the writer wishes to be the case. Maybe he or she doesn’t put it into the medium of the story itself because he or she wants it to be figured out on the audience’s own accord, and only answer because it was asked?
Yeah he can tell his buddies all about this cool song he has, but until he actually writes it down and sings it, or someone else does lol, it’s just part of his mind.
Y’see, this sounds contradictory. If he’s talking about it, then it no longer exists solely within his mind, so it cannot be “just part of his mind.” It’s an unfinished product at that point, but it’s more than “just part of his mind.” By simply talking about it, it has left his mind, even if it isn’t in the final form. I concur with the partialness you said, but nonetheless it is out there.
And as I said, until it has decided to be changed, it hasn’t been changed.
Now, how the various npc’s or whatever tell it in the game is really how the writer wants us to see how those npc’s see it. The ultimate truths of the game remain hidden until the writer(s) decides to reveal that to us gamers… through the lens of the game-world. Until then it’s all just heresay.
Or through telling us directly from their own opening mouths. If I write a story that has an ambiguous meaning behind it that’s never explicitly said in the story, and you read it and then ask me what the meaning is, would me telling you the meaning behind the story be not an ultimate truth of the story?
No, it is still the meaning behind the story, even if it’s not said or shown directly in the story. And I told you from my own mouth – or through some other medium that wasn’t the story itself. It’s still part of the story, but yet it’s not part of the story itself. A bit confusing in wording, I’m sure, but I hope I’m clear enough. You certainly cannot go and tell me “no, that’s not the meaning behind your story – this is” because it’s my story, and what I decided for it is the truth of the story. I decided the objective, or ultimate as you put it, truth of the story. Whether I put that ultimate truth in the story or not is irrelevant – it’s there, it’s just not in your face.
An earthquake could hit ANet studios and destroy everything and everyone that knows what is to be installed in a Guild Wars expansion, at which point whatever was said at any interview relating to future content becomes completely moot because it will never make it into the game.
That’s an entirely different situation, and would be akin to saying I was in the process of writing a story, then some bloke kills me off and now that story will never be. That’s not the same as there being a hidden truth within the story that already exists – that’s about something that doesn’t yet exist. Two very different things, as I said.
I mean, what your saying is like if ANet had folded and dissolved right before development for GW2, then all that stuff they mentioned about a 3rd Guild Wars expansion with the meso-American theme(can’t remember the name right now!) is perfectly legit as game canon. That certainly wasn’t the case, was it?
Again, no I didn’t. As I said things are as they are until they have been changed. By the act of ArenaNet being hit by an earthquake preventing the next GW2 expansion, or me being killed preventing the completion of a story I’m writing, or ArenaNet cancelling Utopia changes what was the case. So no, I’m not saying that Utopia is fully canon in game. In fact, I’m saying that it’s not canon, because things have changed since Utopia was being developed.
A case of the new supplanting the old – the old being Utopia, the new being Eye of the North. What was to canon during Utopia’s development, shown in game or not (there were hints in Nightfall about Utopia), is no longer canon because Utopia wasn’t developed.
However, on the flip side, until we are told that Abaddon is alive, he is and will always be dead in canon.
I think it was elaborated upon already.
When globes are placed out flat, the north and southern edges are to be curled into a fine point – the very top and bottom are, quite literally, a single place. As such, the entire top and the entire bottom is all one geological formation. However, the texture we have not only has land stopping along that northern and southern edge, but the top and bottom of the texture match – as do, as one would expect, the east and west sides.
In other words, the texture wouldn’t fit a globe. However, it would fit a torus shape.
Furthermore, as pointed out in the OP, the globe in the Chantry of Secrets doesn’t match the texture – and from my own observations, Cantha was misshapen, and as the OP shows, Elona is. And there’s even duplication, it seems from the images upon the globe.
In other words, that globe is “false” – and whether the texture for it the globe is or not is questioned.
My point is that what Primordious and only Primordious does should be considered not only corruption, but creation.
It’s like an asura creating a golem.
Mening that being a dragon doesn’t forbid you from creating. Just because the Jormag, Kralk and Zhaitan don’t create minions, it doesn’t mean Mordremoth and Chtulhu are not able to do that.
The difference is that Primordus is making his “version” of golems by twisting the land itself with corruptive magic. In one meaning of the word, yes, he is creating.
But so is Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Jormag, the DSD, and probably Mordremoth. They’re making life where life was not (such as corpses or water or dirt or ice) – that’s creation. However, how they’re making it – and this fully includes Primordus – is by twisting the very fabric of what it is, making it different than before. Making a destroyer is by no means the same as mining metal, melting it down into a new shape, and then powering it via heated liquid.
So even if on a very generic meaning, Primordus is “creating” – by means of argument here, he is not creating. All you’re doing, Ludo, is arguing semantics.
The point remains the same: sylvari are not born in any ways similar to any of the known Elder Dragon minions, which all take a direct 1 to 1 ratio of pure raw elements and make minions out of those pure raw elements. They probably don’t even need to breath, and sylvari very much do.
My point, in the TL;DR version, is that sylvari are not made by taking pre-existing plants and twisting them together to make humanoid shapes.
What are the sources for:
1. Dragon minions can be corrupted by other dragon corruption?
2. Caithe and Faolain saw Nightmare before Cadeyrne made the Court?
1. Crucible of Eternity – story mode’s Kudu and Kudu’s Monster; explorable mode’s infamous Subject Alpha.
2. Dialogue in Twilight Arbor story mode, an interview in the past, and I believe somewhere else in-game too (or was it Edge of Destiny?).
Only because he’s trading at a 4 to 1 ratio. So for every transaction, he has 3 items more for whatever purposes he has.
Though in full seriousness, I doubt the Mystic Forge’s “reserves” could be considered lore full out.
Because Djinn do not consume magic? They, like other races, don’t reduce the amount there is but only changes its shape?
That’s my theory.
Only Imps and Elder Dragons have shown to consume magic. And Imps are demons from the Mists, it seems.
The Herald only mentioned the statue. This I’ve found. But these “many Marriner Plaque all around Lion’s Arch” that the OP mentioned at the end are unknown to me.
Destroyers are “made” using rocks and lava – yes, as I said; but this is done via corrupting the rock and lava into minions. But sylvari are not born from taking the plantlife around them and being twisted into a humanoid shape. They’re born like any other plant is born.
As said before, destroyers are made from the land itself – just like risen are made from the corpses. It’s an equal 1-for-1 ratio of the environment being reduced to make more dragon minions. Sylvari lack this aspect, as the environment’s not being reduced in the sylvari’s creations (otherwise the Maguuma would pretty much be barren of plantlife due to the rate at which sylvari are born now).
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