The player can then choose which ancestry of Tengu they hail from (Caromi, Avicara, Angchu or Quetzal). They also choose one of the Four Houses of the Winds (East, West, North or South) to belong to, and these choices determine their initial personal storyline.
Problem with this: the various clans (so their ancestry) grouped together to form the four houses. Personally, I suspect Caromi, Avicara, and Quetzal formed the North; Sensali and Angchu formed South; and unknown tribes from Elona and beyond formed the East and West (the tengu in GW2 tell us they were spread across the world, although those we see outside the wall come mainly – if not solely – from Cantha and the Caromi tribe).
Their social structure heirarchy seems to be: Clan (shown by their surnames, so the family lines) → Tribes (Caromi, Avicara, Sensali, Anchu, and Quetzal being known) → Houses (North, South, East, and West).
So I doubt choosing a tribe would be viable alongside choosing a house.
Another interesting thing came to my mind…
I was doing an event in Brisban Wildlands with my friend…and there was this event with “The Hunter”…a Largos hunting down the Sylvari patrol…he was killing them.
So we wondered why did he kill them? An entertainment? Or possibility of ‘’evil faction’’ of Largos?Largos are a race of assassins. Assassination is a way of life for them, not a job so him killing a group of Sylvari just for the satisfaction of hunting prey isn’t very evil to them. Also, it says they take very great pride in efficient kills and the better killer they are the higher their social status within their culture is.
The Unseen Hunter guy felt like a criminal assassin even among Largos. Little different than, for example, Vilnia in Snowden Drifts. Just an independent individual who adheres to their race’s culture, but embraces the darker sides of it.
They do have some kind of a code, that we don’t know much about, not much different than the Norn I guess.
We do know some bit about it. For example, they’re really into not keeping debts – and if they’re helped, they view themselves bound to the one who helped them until both parties feel the debt has been paid.
You see a bit of this with Sayeh’s debt to Trahearne, but if you do the fear storyline with Apatia where you meet Sayeh before the Abaddon temple story, at the Source of Orr Sayeh will talk about how you and her are now considered bounded until you repay the debt of her aid in both times (something the PC brings up, not her – she wasn’t considering it something to be indebted for).
With their kills, they seem to prefer non-sapient targets – only two NPCs go after sapient targets (the Veteran Largos Assassin who attacks the kodan Claw in Snowden, and you in other zones; and then the Champion Unseen Hunter who attacks the sylvari), but prefer whatever gives them the best challenge – most commonly being krait, risen (especially risen krait), and karka (that’s observable).
It’s also dishonorable to fail in a kill, it seems, since it’s a great insult for a krait that was killed to come back as an undead.
Nah, he (Malomedies, one of the firstborns) was indeed experimented on but wasn’t killed. He’s still alive, you can find him in the Grove.
And I don’t remember being said it was the inquest who did the experiments. Most Asuras don’t disregard mistreating other species they consider as ‘inferior’ (like how they experiment on skritts or ettins whithout their consent) and not only Inquest’s.
It wasn’t “Inquest” but “Kudu” that experimented on Malomedies, iirc.
Do you mean background lore provided, the primary storyline, secondary events, or all of the above?
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lore
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storyline
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Stories
All three of the above links are worthwhile, with their sub-pages for the latter two, obviously.
I think I see what you mean, but it looks more like it’s just an optical illusion, as it only seems to make sensible shape on the wallpaper and not the header at the top of the GW2.com page.
@BuddhaKeks: NULL, not Noll. One’s a golem, the other’s an asura.
And running for your life can turn folks from rude to “bad*ss” as you put it. Though I’d call it “merciless” which he was more or less from the beginning.
(Edit: And you ninja’d me)
I’m now wondering if the golem was that “huge machine” that the Molten Alliance was building. Or rather, modifying.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
A good thread to look at for this discussion is https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/On-the-Sixth-Elder-Dragon-and-its-corruption/first
So… much… information. o_o
Thank you again, this is really really helpful
And take note that my research from back then is several months old. A lot more things have been found since then, and a lot more interesting comparisons – regardless of how unlikely to tie to Mordremoth – have also been seen.
Well, Jheryn, the thought comes from all indications – but no outright statements, mind you – that the deep sea dragon lies in the Unending Ocean. This leads folks to believe that sea travel to Cantha will be impossible until the DSD is dealt with – however, it should be noted that although the Unending Ocean is between Tyria and Cantha, it is not only there but elsewhere as well (though how large the Unending Ocean is, we don’t know).
Though such a move (moving all souls to the RoT) was highly unlikely to be done by the Forgotten – as they’ve never once said to manage souls, let alone guide them to the afterlife – but instead the actions of the avatars much like how we see the Avatar of Dwayna take Ural’s soul.
jheryn.8390, if seems you still didn’t bother to understand what I was saying. Drama bomb indeed. Sorry I tried to re-explain reasonably, won’t bother anymore (btw, one cinematic? Try all EotN ones and at least 5 NF ones).
Either way, as I see it, drax settled the debate.
Kormir’s the goddess of knowledge not secrets. They decided to make that change specifically to show that she is different in personality from Abaddon. She promotes the search for more knowledge whereas Abaddon kept the knowledge for himself, and perhaps his few followers.
In GW1, Kormir is referred to as the “Goddess of Secrets, Truth, and Knowledge.” And where did it ever say Abaddon kept the knowledge for himself? Before his fall he was referred to as the god of wisdom. He was only called – openly – the god of secrets when he was a secret.
While I think Kasmeer will turn up being a good girl (she has traits for both being the nemesis and being part of the “young DE” with Rox and Braham but I’m inclined for this later option), this particular argument has a precedent to invalid it: Ghosts of Ascalon book sets a precedent of a human female convincing a Flame Legion member to be part of her plot (particularly promising to give them the Claw of the Kahn-Ur so the Flame Legion leads the Charr, to achieve her plan of a civil war weakning them as a race).
There’s a huge difference, however. Riona cornered a Flame Legion member and made a deal with a no-body – and that deal was really just “I’m going to give something you’d want and you don’t have to give me anything.” But you can bet, given Canach using those gauntlets, that the nemesis got something out of it.
Well, the Mouth comes to you when you stop the supply – kind of – rather than having to be sought. He busts through the Kitah Manse front doors (apparently incapable of opening doors) because he’s hungry. And he shows to be a well versed talker in a cinematic.
The major races cannot reproduce, however we see multiple in-game examples of human and norn holding more… physical interests with each other – though rarely is said interests returned in kind.
There’s probably some human and sylvari stuff going on too in the game among NPCs. Though less so, I’m sure.
About the “side-tangent:” it is outright confirmed in the Arah Forgotten path that the cleansing of Glint had occurred before any of the human gods set foot on Tyria.
Warden Illyra: This is the altar. It was here, before the human gods came, that Glint was freed of the Elder Dragons.
You shouldn’t take any NPC as word-of-god for second-hand information. Illyra could be wrong just as much as Thruln the Lost was.
Given how we have previous information saying the Forgotten were brought by the Six Gods, it’s a debatable thing to go either way. Illyra isn’t a developer, so you shouldn’t go “Illyra says so, so it is so.”
If there was no contradicting information – new or old – I’d say “Illyra says so, so it is so until otherwise implied or said where it then becomes questionable but not debunked.”
Again, I do think the Forgotten came from somewhere in the Mists, and they were close allies to the Pantheon, but not to the extent the History of Tyria and the ones trapped in the Realm of Torment show them to be – apologist sycophants without personal agenda – but a more free-willed and individualistic species.
The bold is the main reason why Illyra is called into question. We have first-hand imformation that the Forgotten are servants of the Six Gods, and second-hand information that the Forgotten were brought by the Gods, as well as second-hand information that they weren’t (brought, at least – they could have been sent as a scouting party ahead of the Six).
And I wouldn’t call those in the Realm of Torment trapped, per say, or “apologist without a personal agenda.”
All I am saying is, there’s been no mention, that I have seen in game, that points to Melandru being a fertility goddess. Feel free to prove me wrong, but RL religions do not count in Tyrian matters, this is something I’ve heard you say on multiple occasions.
You’re not wrong and I’m in agreement with you. But what I’ve said is that ther’s no mention of Dwayna being considered such either.
We just never have seen a pregnant woman having particular blessings for a safe childbirth or a want-to-be-parent being blessed for having a luck in that department.
And then I merely use a wide-spanning source of ArenaNet’s inspiration for many things – mythology – to explain a possibility.
It makes more sense, in my mind, that Malchor created a statue to Grenth while Grenth was still young, which would explain his more youthful appearance compared to GW1’s portrayal. Then the gods went into Arah, Malchor killed himself, and some unknown time later Grenth took down Dhuum at the place his father died. You know what they say, the simplest solution.
My personal theory is this:
The quote is not about Grenth, but of Dhuum. Those depictions of an old aged man wearing a skull mask is similarly of Dhuum whom, depending on how you take his GW1 model, may be seen as a being wearing a skull mask (as model wise, it’s a pitch-black head (you can see the chin at a proper angle) with a skull model placed over it – and those eyes hardly look natural!). And that this was the Six Gods’ means of erasing Dhuum from (most) Tyrian knowledge – rather than removing it, Grenth simply “became” Dhuum in many depictions.
Would also explain why a more kinder judge of the dead who calls for proper justice – including vengeance – is depicted on a pile of wailing bodies. Sounds more Dhuum-worthy to me.
The young statue, I’d think, was either done by Malchor before Grenth’s rise to godhood (as could the quote, actually), or was done after Malchor’s death.
I notice that you didn’t say the developers could easily say "They were there and stayed. That would have totally screwed your argument if that were true wouldn’t it?
No I didn’t, because it was implied, sorry I thought you were intelligent enough to realize this. And no it doesn’t. It doesn’t affect my argument either way, because my entire point is that it can go either way – not the way you’re taking it in that you seem to think I’m saying they didn’t. Ever.
Again, yes I can say it. ArenaNet already wrote the lore but you cannot see the forest fore the trees. The lore was called Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North. The lore was the game.
And yet, you’ve yet to show this lore that’s so definitive! And again, your sarcasm’s becoming insulting.
Wrong. I only used Koss when I had to do so. Same with Melonni and others. They were not always there completing all missions. He wasn’t there for several missions. Because I never took him. Just because he was an integral part of the story line, doesn’t mean he was the hero of it.
Pay attention to the cinematics. For example, the second Moddok Crevice cinematic. No matter who’s in your party – Dunkoro being the only required hero – Koss, Melonni, Zhed, and Tahlkora always appears.
In lore, those heroes are there until the end of the campaign. And I never said Koss was the hero, by the way. I merely said that we know for certain that he is always present.
But there were still heroes and they had impact on the game.
And I’m not disagreeing with this, nor did I ever. There were heroes, but we don’t know anything about who, what, how many, or what they did.
So who is guessing now?
I didn’t know that theorizing based off of canon lore – and not mechanics – is “guessing.” I observed the difference in profession attitudes based on the continents a long time ago, and those observations are easily observable in GW1; and from those observations, I made a comparison and in turn, a theory. It’s not “guessing.”
I seriously think you should take time from the forum, given your incredibly rude sarcasm and now outright insults. You’ve yet to provide anything that’s actually lore – just mechanics that COULD be relevant to lore.
And to clarify, since you seem to constantly miss/forget it from my original post and all subsequent posts:
I’m not saying there were no ritualists, etc. in Tyria ever. I’m saying that we have no definitive proof that there were in large enough numbers to not only remain, but to be mentioned 250 years later.
There is to quote you, “zero, zip nada” proof that the other professions were not there. All classes had access to the HoM, not just Tyria professions. And since War in Kryta made it more than possible for all classes to have played a part it is idiotic to believe that they didn’t. You even admit that Sunspears were in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings and mention of mercenaries in War in Kryta.
While it’s true that lack of evidence isn’t evidence of lacking – as drax would say – the opposite is not true as well (that lack of evidence doesn’t mean there’s still a presence). On the HoM: That’s a mechanics thing at the least, and cannot be used to definite things – it’d be no different than claiming that there were paragons in Ascalon because you took a Nightfall character to do the early Proph missions.
Yes, I said sunspears were in Tombs, but they didn’t spread past it (fact) – so it’s of no support to you. Yes there were mercenaries, even Canthan ones, but no professions given and – more importantly – we’re told they left. We cannot use the WM secondary professions as proof of anything for reasons I previously stated about skills being used cannot be used outright for lore, as there are cases where said skills are used for effect appearances and not because there’s a charr using a spell called Dwayna’s Sorrow. Hell, dervishes are followers of the Five Gods, yet used by the White Mantle who very much don’t follow the Five Gods? Yes, that makes perfect lore sense.
You’re using MECHANICS for lore. But they’re not interchangable! Yes, there are mechanics existing – or rather, explained by or supporting – lore, but it’s not always so, and things like skills and levels is one such very obscure line.
And your sarcasm that twisted my words was very insulting, by the way. Because I never once said that we can “gloss over” anything. I merely said that nothing about our player characters’ professions or amounts can be used in canon lore.
There are transports between Kamadan and Kaineng Center dude to Lion’s Arch dude. […] Whether they were PC’s or not. They were there. Accept it.
That’s mechanics “dude.” Just like going to Ascalon and playing those missions as a paragon. There wasn’t a paragon there, it’s mechanics to replay old missions – no different than doing the dungeons in GW2 out of order, or repeatedly. That’s not proof in the least. Accept it.
The millions number came from your post, not mine.
But holds no lore value until ArenaNet – not you – says otherwise. Either from their own mouths, or through the games.
3. War in Kryta, see above.
4. EOTN, see above.
5. White Mantle and Peacekeepers had Rits. That is a fact not conjecture. So yes I can say that there were Rits in Tyria. I simply can.
See my bit on skill appearances several posts above. Not proof, only a possibility.
For the ritualists – in GW2, necromancers summon spirits (Shadow Fiends; aka Shades). In GW1, Reiko uses GW2 mesmer mechanics. Those White Mantle “Ritualists” could have been the first necromancers to use spirit minions. The predecessors of Shadow Fiends.
There, I just explained (yes, theoretically) your “fact” as “not ritualist” – using the exact skill appearance explanation I did before.
-next post-
On 1: The next story arc is still on Southsun. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/may-28-2013/ Though it starts in May, it lasts til June.
On 2: I haven’t had a chance to get in game much (fear of laptop meltdown still), but from what I’ve seen and heard, she doesn’t seem to hold ulterior motives. That business partner is likely this unknown “Jory” fella I’ve heard about.
On 4: I think Canach got tricked into something by the nemesis… and given this “something valuable” bit, I think the nemesis was after this “something.”
On 6: But I saw Karka in Lion’s Arch, Kessex Hills, and Caledon Forest! :o Lies from Anet! Lies I tell you! :P
On 8: Eh, just as long as there are some lasting events. That’s all I need for Southsun.
I’d just like to remind Rym that the nemesis did not create the Consortium.
Anyways, something interesting about the preview for the next set of content – Last Stand at Southsun – is that Canach has Molten Gauntlets. So it seems the nemesis is behind his actions too; and his goal was to help the refugees in their plight against the Consortium by giving the Consortium more problems (apparently – not very well thought out if you ask me).
But anyways, as to the nemesis herself – while a dev did call the nemesis a female, it could be a red herring or the dev’s personal preference of pronoun use for unknown gender (some folks use feminine, most use masculine, some like me use plural). But presuming that it was an honest slip-of-the-tongue and the nemesis is a female, here’s my thoughts on the nemesis’ candidacy criteria:
In short: a well-informed female non-human that most players would know. My first thought on this is Faolain, as those who read Edge of Destiny would know, she’s very well informed. And she did flee after Twilight Arbor story mode. Problem is, she doesn’t really fit the “from the city” credential.
My second thought turns to Vilnia Shadowsong – anyone who’s done map completion in Snowden Drifts probably knows this most annoying skill challenge defender. She and her sylvari companion Noxia are never killed (Noxia stealths away while Vilnia turns into an illusion upon death), and are known to have traveled at least a little. A mesmer would also be fairly persuasive, and Noxia would likely have knowledge or access to the pollen that Cadach is using. Only thing is, she’s quite insane and doesn’t come off as a very “master puppeteer” individual. And again – from the city bears an issue.
Beyond this, except for pulling out (former) allies, I got nothing in mind. Unless the individual is brand new or Lazarus turns out to be a female mursaat with a very masculine name (if mursaat have genders).
@Alex the Precise: Problem with Canach – and I did instantly suspect him after seeing the gloves – is a few fold in your theorycrafting:
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Melandru is the goddess of nature, earth, and growth – and in “nature” that’s both flora and fauna. While Dwayna is called the goddess of life, Melandru is the goddess of things-that-live.
First is Dzalana. Second is just to a western coast, mentioned in Fort Koga’s description in GW1 – the second sylvari tree seems to be in Magus Falls, based on the info of it.
Iron Marches – it’s the one used to cause the actual Searing; well, one of them.
And I agree it could have been a different person for every single side story. Still it was one person according to story line that killed the big bad at the end of each campaign/expansion.
Turn it to “still it was one group of people according to story line” then you get exactly what I am saying.
That’s the whole issue of the PC. And you have absolutely nothing which implies that any of those “one person”s was a ritualist or dervish in Tyria.
Ritualist would have made a much larger impression on Tyrian society than vague similarity in a few abilities of two different professions.
Not quite so, actually! If you look at how Necromancers acted between Tyria, Elona, and Cantha in GW1, you’d find that necromancers in Cantha were vastly different than those in Tyria and Elona. If you then add in Ritualists into the mix, you’ll find that Tyrian and Elonian necromancers appear like a mix of the two.
In Cantha, necromancers are viewed – in shortest descriptions – as balancers of life and death. Their primary job as necromancers is to keep the death counts “reasonable.” In Tyria and Elona, however, their job is that and a bit more: they’re to guide restless spirits in the world to peace, care for graves, and study the darker side of magic.
It’s the bit on restless spirits which mixes them to be like ritualists, who’s job is to typically communicate and guide spirits to a restful afterlife as well as using them to do other tasks. In other words, Tyrians and Elonians basically combined the Canthan necromancer and ritualist together.
Then slap in the progress necromancers had with adding in spectral skills (plus their Shadow Fiend minion and somewhat their Death Shroud), it seems all the more likely that ritualists have melded into necromancy, though losing much of their uniqueness, within Tyria.
Well part of what you said proves one of my points. If there were millions of PC’s then a ample percentages of them were Ritualists, Paragons, and Dervishes. So if we are talking millions of these PC’s, blaring evidence of their professions should be seen and they are not.
There’s two issues with your statement:
There’d be no ritualists, assassins, paragons, or dervishes going to help Tyria during the events of Prophecies, since those events happened before any known adventurers were going to and fro. We do know that there were Sunspears at the Tomb of the Primeval Kings issue, but that’s all. Though some certainly traveled north for Eye of the North, there’s no indication that such individuals would head to Kryta and the like except for War in Kryta which does make mention of mercenaries.
However, the thing is, once more, we have no indication for the number of PCs that are to canon lore. Zero, zip nada. So saying “there were millions of players who played ritualists/assassins/paragons/dervishes in Prophecies content” means absolutely nothing to canon lore until ArenaNet – directly or via the game – makes a show that it does mean something. And all we have on this matter is three things:
So in the end, you just simply cannot state that there were without a doubt ritualists, etc. in Tyria. You just simply can’t.
-snip bit on PC completing the tasks-
That’s a flawed argument because for me, it’s my PC; for you, its your PC. All PCs are effectively just a varied template for “blank heroes” – the thing is, we have no indication how many said blank heroes are.
I get your argument, but you’re just saying generic bullcrap (excuse the term) to ignore the entire purpose of asking the questions about the PC. It answers nothing in the end, as it’s just your typical developer response that tells you “this is your story.” In the end, you decide what happens in your own fanon with that… but that means there’s no canon for it.
And no canon for the PC means no canon for “ritualists, assassins, paragons, and dervishes went to Tyria!” So long as the PC questions remain unanswered – and you can bet your shiny rear end it will remain so – Anet can easily say “they never went there” as much as they can say “they might never have went there” or “they went there but left” or even “the Order of Whispers censored all information on them, so no one but the descendants of them know that they were in Tyria!” or something even more of an asspull.
So I can say that in lore, there was one character who emerged as the hero in end game content.
No, technically, you cannot. You can say that’s how you perceive it, but you cannot say that’s how it is – since it’s a huge unknown with many possibilities, only ArenaNet can say it.
What can be said is that the henchmen and heroes were present for every mission in which they were available to join the party story-wise. Even if you didn’t bring them along, Koss was with you from start to end except that bit where he got kidnapped – and the bit where he went to save the garden while Melonni went to save her home.
So yes, I think it is safe to say that PC’s had a huge impact on Lore. Because one and only one of them was the hero of each endgame and side quest.
As I said, there’s implication for three heroes, minimum. We got canonical source for this. Thing is, we don’t know how far those three heroes go – just to a certain degree. And its intentionally made so. You’re so certain of yourself, but developers – John Stumme among them – said that it’s intentionally done so that it seems like you’re the hero, but that there were other heroes that went through “similar things” as well.
And in the end, you’re still left unsure how much influence a single hero held on the world, because the guy who killed the Lich Lord maybe, just maybe, may not be the same guy who killed Bonfaaz Burntfur, Galrath, Oberan, and the Eater of Souls – and there’s even more reason to doubt that the same guy killed Shiro Tagachi, Abaddon, and the Great Destroyer.
Even if you had a single character do all that, it doesn’t mean that’s so – that’s the whole problem with multiplayer online western RPGs.
-more in next post; kitten character limit-
But their territory is also to the east of the Blazeridge.
" East, across the Blazeridge Mountains, Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer controls the lands of the Blood Legion."
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Legions_of_the_Charr
The Blood Legion is said to be the largest of the three legions (Flame being ignored in the statement), so it’s only natural that their lands is also the largest.
The events of Prophecies. In 272 AE, Glint compiled the Flameseeker Prophecies; these prophecies foretold, in non-descriptive wording, the Charr Invasion (and in turn the Searing and the Cataclysm), the rise of the White Mantle backed by their “gods” (the mursaat, under the persona of the Unseen Ones), the civil war between the Deldrimor and the Stone Summit, the fall of the White Mantle and extinction of their gods, and the release of the titans by the hands of the Flameseeker (and unknown, seemingly, to most, the death of said Flameseeker).
During Prophecies (exactly 800 years later), the players confront the White Mantle and their gods, fighting through their forces to free Thunderhead Keep from occupation and liberate Kryta, and to do so they were told to unlock the Door of Komalie by Vizier Khilbron. The Door of Komalie, being behind the strongest mursaat fortresses, was what kept the titans trapped within the Realm of Torment; most of the mursaat were killed by the PCs on the way to the Door of Komalie, and after Khilbron took control of the titan armies, sent them to eliminate the remainder mursaat as well as assault the capitals of Tyria.
Lazarus was the first mursaat we learned to survive the titan’s assault, which he did by separating himself into various aspects and putting said aspects into certain members of the White Mantle. He eventually reformed during Eye of the North (six years after Prophecies), but the last aspect was twisted which harmed Lazarus, forcing him to flee and he hasn’t been heard of since. During War in Kryta (one year after Eye of the North), seven more mursaat were found to be backing the White Mantle’s renewed and increased oppression before they were each individually killed.
I don’t agree that we don’t know how much influence PC’s had upon lore. PC’s killed Abaddon. PC’s disposed of Shiro twice, although the second time it was mainly one person soloing while the rest stood in the corner and paid him/her later. PC’s killed the Lich and Armageddon Lords. PC’s destroyed the Great Destroyer. End game all called the PC’s hero’s. Savior’s of Elona, etc., etc., etc. PC’s had very big impact on GW lore. There were a heck of a lot of “big bads” PC disposed of. To say that they did not have impact on lore is unequivocally preposterous.
I did not say that those “big bads” weren’t disposed of, nor did I say the player characters held no impact.
What I meant was who killed Khilbron, Shiro, etc.? How many of those PC heroes exist in canon? Who did all those side quests? We don’t know these answers, and you cannot say that millions of human adventurers went and slew Shiro Tagachi at one time, seeing how there was millions of players of the game. Those events happened, but we don’t know by whom? Will canon lore say it was one hero and never mention a name, gender, profession, or nationality? Will canon lore say it was 3 heroes (one per continent), each never given a name, gender, or profession? Or was the PCs just random adventurers and the ones who killed Khilbron and whatnot in canon is Devona and co.? And then, what about the minor villains? Who was it that killed Galrath, Verata, etc.?
That’s what I meant by not knowing the extent of the millions of PCs’ influence on lore. Because we cannot say it was millions of heroes, it’s hard to point out just how many there were, and ArenaNet has left this unexplained for now.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I suspect they were moved south due to Elder Dragon corruption. The Orrian History Scrolls make it sound like the order of arrival was Dwayna->humans->Balthazar->Melandru->other gods. With such a mindset, knowing what Balthazar did (burn Orr in cleansing flame), what Melandru did (cover the land in fertile ground with forestation), and what was there before said actions (Forgotten structures and a slumbering Elder Dragon – the latter unknown about by the Six Gods), it seems to me that the humans were taken south to avoid Elder Dragon corruption that the Six Gods removed from the world – part of their terraforming that got twisted into “creating the world” by human and charr legends.
(side tangent: I wouldn’t doubt in the least that the actual order was Dwayna→Forgotten→(Elder Dragons slumber)→humans→Balthazar→Melandru→other gods; as this would explain why the dwarves view Dwayna and Grenth as gods alongside their Great Dwarf, but never make mention of the others (though I suppose Balthazar could have been mistaken as a great Dwarf – beard and supposed love of ale and all that :P). If Dwayna brought the Forgotten first, then she would, indirectly, be their saviors because the Forgotten freed Glint with magic immune to the Elder Dragons, and Glint’s the one who hid the races from the Elder Dragons – though this would mean that the Six Gods (began to) arrive when the Elder Dragons were still active – and Grenth would be revered for being Dwayna’s son.
As to the mursaat – keep in mind that they fled the world, living in the Mists, when the last Elder Dragon rose. They’re also stated to have returned “only to be known as the Unseen Ones” (or something like that). Implying that they don’t have a homeland on Tyria – or didn’t since the last ED rise, at least. That settlement Saul found them in might not even be of mursaat origin, let alone the mursaat having settled in Janthir.
The White Mantle – not the mursaat – do have ties to Janthir, though, via the Eye of Janthir. But that could be little more than the mursaat telling Saul to “steal a powerful artifact from the evil people” or some such.
I doubt that any mursaat fled there – I presume you mean from the titan massacre – as it sounds like almost every mursaat on the world was killed (only 8 known survivals of the titan massacre, 7 of which killed 7 years later).
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Well, thing is that they know that Caudecus is a criminal. But they still need proof. They very well may be keeping constant tabs on him and may have already read his mind – but mindreading still isn’t proof. And even if Caudecus knows about something going down, that doesn’t mean he knows the details of it – he may intentionally keep himself out of the know for such scenarios.
As to finding things in his manor – it seems he set things up so that should others come snooping around, the nearby bandits are to act hostile against his manor. No other reason why the bandits would only just then start kidnapping servants and blowing kitten up in the manor when the Shining Blade and Seraph are investigating.
Actually, it’s never said how much of Dhuum’s power was absorbed. Just that there was a transference of power, and that Dhuum couldn’t be killed by Grenth.
As to why re-imprison… well, would you want one of eight mortals who raided your domain dozens of times, unleashing Dhuum, and being easily gullible into killing hundreds – nay, thousands – just because said mortal was told to kill “bad guys” to become a god?
Thing with Abaddon is this: He was a full-fledged god, and there was a good replacement for him present, and he was not only just breaking free but even while still imprisoned, he was transforming the world of Tyria. Dhuum on the other hand only gains power from deaths within the Underworld and nothing else. Why this is so is unknown, but he’s still called a “fallen god” irregardless, even if Dhuum claims to be death itself.
Why is Dhuum left alive? I theorize two things:
Grenth is the son of Dwayna and a human sculptor, most likely Malchor. Presumably, his godly powers were given to him from Dwayna when he was born.
Mortal sculptor* Nothing says he was half-human. And given the Orrian History Scrolls and the Quiz Terminals during the event there, it seems unlikely that Grenth got powers from Dwayna, but instead had powers because he was Dwayna’s son – as Thalador said. In fact, one particular line implied that he resented his mother a little (“In response [to being Dwayna’s son], Grenth gifted the world with death, that they might understand there were consequences to their actions.”), and he had to “earn” his placement among the gods (by taking Dhuum out).
Dwayna is somewhat of a fertility goddess, being the goddess of life, as well as the leader of the gods, and somewhat of a mother figure to all of them.
Usually, it’s the god associated with nature that’s considered the fertility god – in this case, Melandru.
It is feasible to suggest that she is the source of all of the gods, or at least the current ones, and that their birth is similar to Grenth’s.
As said, Melandru is the oldest, even though Dwayna is the leader of them and the first to walk on the world. It seems unlikely that Lyssa, Abaddon, or Balthazar came from Dwayna – or Melandru’s – womb. Abaddon seems to have once been a mortal (most likely human) before ascending as there was a previous god he usurped. Balthazar I wouldn’t doubt rose to power similar to Grenth, perhaps in a scenario like Thalador theorized, or could even be a child of Dwayna who usurped another god, but there’s nothing to really claim he was born a god or demi-god (Menzies, similarly, is never given a divinity status).
One last point of interest is the not-entirely-canonical Arachnia. Said to be the god of spiders […]
She’s never said to be the god of spiders. She’s a spider goddess – in other words, a spider-like being that is a god. We don’t know what she was a god of, but my theory is that she was Abaddon’s predecessor. Just to note: we don’t even know Arachnia’s true gender.
And how the hell was Lord Odran able to tap into the power of the mists, something only the gods have ever been able to do?
He never tapped into the power of the Mists. He was simply able to create a portal to the Rift. The Rift is a place where anyone can access all places and times.
[I] was simply implying that she must have given him an enormous amount of strength to be able to defeat Dhuum, which he may have returned some of once the deed was done.
Doubtful, given what we know of the situation. Grenth was unable to kill Dhuum, but with the help of seven mortals, he was able to defeat Dhuum.
About Lord Odran, what unholy ways would make this possible?
From the Prophecies manual, Odran was able to make the first set of portals via “Using a spell of his own devising and the sacrifice of many souls”.
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In Edge of Destiny, Jennah told Logan she wouldn’t look into his mind without permission. Whether this is a moral standing or a technical limitation is unspecified iirc (since the two tried looking into Kralkatorrik’s mind but got whiplashed out, I’m guessing moral but that whiplashed out part could be due to a technical limitation of the magic and they simply tried because they didn’t know what the “mind in that storm” was), however who’s to say that they haven’t looked into Caudecus’ mind?
They cannot simply oust Caudecus because of something that they cannot show the people. There’d be a rebellion; her status is too unstable, especially with the charr truce now and there being so many people in favor of Caudecus thanks to his circus and other “enjoy life, have no worries, those centaurs at the gates will never get you!” methodology.
Jennah and Anise can’t just shout “He’s White Mantle!” – the people think the White Mantle have been gone for 250 years. Nor can they just shout “he’s in cahoots with the bandits!” because they’d have no proof to back up their claim and the people, who know they’re not politically friendly, may see that act as them getting rid of political rivals in order to solidify her reign… which would lead to more bandits who are disillusioned into the notion that Jennah’s a tyrant.
The whole Jennah v. Caudecus scene is a psychological and political battleground. Just because they know the other’s guilty of something doesn’t mean that they can call said other out on it – they need proof or else they have nothing. Especially with Krytan politics against Ministers where if you cannot prove someone guilty, all evidence used in that trial can never be used to argue guiltiness from the party again.
A few notes, Delay. East of the Blazeridge is Blood Legion territory – the Flame Legion don’t have a “homeland” anymore, as they’ve been coutcasted.
Also, we’ve been to the Deldrimor Front in GW1, so it’s not exactly “unexplored” to us players. It’s where the places like Iron Mines of Moladune, Thunderhead Keep, and Tasca’s Demise/Mineral Springs are.
Thirdly, nothing says that Janthir is the home of the mursaat. All we’re told is that Janthir is home of beings with the gift of True Sight – and quite frankly, nothing says the mursaat hold this gift.
Also, you’re kind of off with the “reports of how humans first appeared on Tyria” – we only have one line that suggests humans arrived on a continent south of Cantha. We know for a fact they’re not native to the world. And the notion that they arrived on Orr, provided by The Seventh Reaper, an avatar of Grenth, himself along with Orrian records, does not negate the notion that the “human homeland” is south of Cantha – it simply means that, before humanity could settle in Orr, the Six Gods wisked them away to that land (not continent, mind you!) south of Orr. Homelands don’t mean “place of origin for the species” after all.
For the Kodan, what we’re told is that they’re from arctic seas north of the Far Shivepreaks – it’s not all that limited, because it’s only ocean up there. After all, they’ve been living on icebergs for centuries.
Just one thing I wanted to add: the Searing Cauldron was not actually from the Titans. The Titans merely told the Charr about it, and told them to use it. The Searing Cauldrons (plural) are powerful, ancient relics, like Magdaer, Sohothin, and the Lost Scrolls, possibly older than the Human Gods.
Not quite so. We hold no knowledge of the origin of the Searing Cauldrons. Nothing even implies the objects themselves are ancient in any way shape or form – just the magic contained within.
However, we know that the Titans gave the charr at least one cauldron called the Cauldron of Cataclysm . We also learn that the Flame Legion enchanted their Searing Cauldron*s* with powerful magic . And finally, we know that the Searing magic holds similarities with the Branded (Searing Effigy and the two new “mini-searings” all use purple crystals and flames, the flame animation used by Branded creatures too, though the crystal models are not shared – though it is shared as a recolored version of Reflection Crystals; lastly, the line about the magic of the cauldrons implies Elder Dragon – “It is said the Cauldron’s magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence. " – but only the magic).
Dhuum’s power was absorbed by Grenth in Orr (presumably around 48 BE). So that’s a major flaw in your theory.
The objective in the Underworld never was to kill Dhuum, just re-imprison him.
It got torn down. It was in Fort Marriner but was removed to make way for the asura gates. There’s a male norn NPC, Vonbrig Kemp, iirc in the fort explaining this.
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I wouldn’t say that the Elder Dragons have intentions to fight each other. I would instead agree with the notion that they fight due to entering each others’ territories – that is, they’re not allied, and are rivals, but they don’t go out of their way to fight what they view to be the biggest threat to them. It’d be too great a risk to their reign when they don’t need to eliminate those threats. As we see from the personal story, Elder Dragons do fear, and as seen from Edge of Destiny, they seek to remove any potential threats (Kralk killing Glint; Zhaitan targeting Trahearne and Fort Trinity before it can truly solidify itself)) and avoid all actual threats (Kralk fleeing from Destiny’s Edge once it saw it was more than a mere annoyance).
As to the source – it was a video interview shortly before release, though the matter is one of the hundreds of things ArenaNet never mentions in-game.
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Yeah, there are three in Straits of Devastation around the island The Vizier’s Tower is on and around the Broken Spit. There’s one right next to the Broken Spit Waypoint.
wow no need to come along rude, I read both books and to me elder dragons are just pure chaos. Snaff looked into one’s mind and didn’t find anything else.
1) I wasn’t being rude.
2) You’re wrong. Snaff did find “something else.” Though the Elder Dragons’ character is seen more through their minions than through them.
Shiro is a great villain because you fear him, you even die confronting him which is something that doesn’t happen often in storytelling.
No one really feared Shiro, actually… Yes, he does kill the characters in the storyline, but it’s lampshaded that the mechanical deaths also occurred (just not during cinematics and the like) in GW1.
It really doesn’t matter if those concepts are in the game already, those were examples of how I’d wish a villain would look like, not like this:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/f/f4/Canach.jpg/133px-Canach.jpg
In other words, you want enemies to look kitten, and not like someone who could be the fella sitting next to you on a train. You want enemies to be obviously identified as enemies, and not a villain that could befriend you and be hiding dark harboring secrets without you knowing?
Because that’s what Canach is – and a lot of the GW2 villains, actually. Just like the White Mantle or Khilbron would have been if not for the Prophecies manual. They are villains that don’t obviously appear as villains on appearance alone.
Really, you’re saying you want “cool looking villains” and “villains that have personality” when… you kind of already got that in the game. It’s just that they tend to be mutually exclusive UNLESS you dig into the lore.
Which is, again, a fault that ArenaNet has – they have so much more lore written out than what they show in the game itself, which only lowers the quality of the game for folks who don’t do all the digging that could be done. You say that me saying this before was being rude, except that I was just pointing out a fact. I wasn’t insulting anyone at all, lest of all you despite saying that folks acting like you are now tend to be the result of such.
For example: can you tell me why all krait are slavers? I can tell you right now that it’s never once mentioned in the game why the krait are xenophobic slavers. It was mentioned in a blog post that is now taken down.
get over it.
I have nothing to get over?
1. Bandits, in theory they are used by Caudecus to embarass the queen, they believe they are fighting against tyrant, basically a bunch of simple men and women that believed in Cadecus’ lies. In fact they are a bunch of psychos that only care about killing and stealing, every time you can talk to them in PS they are all like: “huehuehue we are so evil”. I still remember the commoner’s personal story arc, where you learn about the plan of destroying the orphanage, and bandits acting like: “wohoo we will be able to kill children!”.
The problem you have here is that you’re mixing up people with each other.
There are bandits who are true criminals. Then there are bandits who are misguided fools. The former tend to be the higher ranked individuals like Two-Blade Pete or Big Nosed Ted who make the sinister plots.
2. Inquest. They are pro-asura organization who want asuras to become the master race, yet most of the time they sabotage other asuras. Also they are super amoral.
The problem you have here is that you’re taking the intention of the Arcane Council and attributing it to the wrong group. The Inquest only care about one thing: learning everything that they can about the Eternal Alchemy. And they’ll do it by any means necessary. Yes, they are amoral – they’re meant to be amoral. But they don’t give a kitten about asura being the master race. They want themselves to survive and learn all there is to learn. Other asura can go to the Realm of Torment for all they care.
On the other villains, I think you only look at the surface. The dredge have an interesting story to them. The krait and Nightmare Court too, but to a lesser degree.
And then villains themselves. Kudu, Gaheron, Faolain etc…. all are a bunch of super evil, mwahahahing, moustache twirling villains, psychos, doing evil for evil’s sake/power/just because they can.
Apparently you didn’t pay attention to Gaheron and Faolain’s story. But I cannot blame you. See above for why. You’re just like the OP who don’t see the full story because ArenaNet doesn’t put it in the game or, if they do, it’s so well hidden that you have to spend hours digging into it to see it.`
Given the Elder Dragons are rivals, I don’t think there’s any “high Elder Dragon” or “Supreme Elder Dragon” or whatever like the other recent thread on the Elder Dragon’s OP suspects.
What will be next? The Pact, the force that allowed the defeat of the Elder Dragons, will be disbanded and we’re back to square one. We’re heroes, but we lost our biggest trump card. Then insert a new bad-guy, who does not have to be some world-ending threat, because we had a power-decrease and as such, so too, can the enemies.
As to the order of killing Elder Dragons:
Jormag -> Kralkatorrik -> Mordremoth
Primordus and the DSD will likely remain as constant “somewhere in the world, but we don’t know where” threats for some time – these threats will be what keeps the Pact out of the picture without disbanding them, while we go working to solve other world problems like we did with the Molten Alliance (no Pact forces there, just adventurers aiding three groups who backed the Pact).
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If you want the full details on The Cataclysm, there’s a WHOLE lot more than that on just the years prior to and of The Cataclysm, which you can garner from the History of Tyria (from the Prophecies manual), and the Orrian History Scrolls (from Shelter Docks, GW2).
Basically, during the Third Guild War, King Reza sent out most/all of the Orrian military to quell the conflicts – but this only escalated the death toll during the war. When the charr invaded and all three nations pulled back, Orrians felt they were going to be fine because they had enough time to prepare. However, for still unknown reasons, the charr were easily able to break through the Orrian defenses (I suspect that it was a combination of the soldiers not making it back in time and the Orrians over-estimating the threat – after all, their navy seems to have been never mobilized for the threat).
The charr came with at least three Searing Cauldrons, intending to set off the Searing in Orr (presumably from Arah as that was their destination by all appearances). Their direction of invasion was the same as the Pact’s – they invaded via the same islands, through Malchor’s Leap, and into Cursed Shore. When they reached Cursed Shore is when the Cataclysm occurred, no charr making it within Arah.
During the invasion, Khilbron announced he had a plan to push the charr back and stole the Lost Scrolls from Arah’s catacombs before returning to his tower (which is where the Searing Cauldrons can be found scattered around). How he got back to his tower is not explicitly stated, but given how he teleports in GW1, that probably has to do with it. And he set off the Cataclysm from said tower in the now Straits of Devastation.
That’s a bandit murder (that is, a bandit murdered someone), it seems, at the Spokes of Grenth (it’s technically still part of the Plaza of Grenth), which is Divinity’s Reach’s waterworks. I always suspected it had to do with the street rat storyline which has Two-Blade Pete poisoning the water supply there.
Elder Dragons don’t have character?
You don’t pay much attention. Because they do. It’s just that the personality is subliminal beneath the magical power they are.
As to your concept art links, the first two are (somewhat) in game already: the first is early concept art for the “Risen King” as it is called, which were renamed into Eyes of Zhaitan. The second is early concept art, I presume, for Faolain – a much better appearance, if you ask me.
And yay, another WP video. >.> See Aaron’s post on that.
As for Shiro, well… once more, what Aaron said: he was hardly a dramatic villain with character. Not unless you dug and dug and dug into the lore that’s not presented at face value. Same thing with the Elder Dragons, or Khilbron, or Abaddon, or Faolain, or ANY villain in the game. This is the biggest fall point ArenaNet has: they have SO much lore that is never presented in the game itself, and if it is, it’s hard to find and piece together so we get folks like you who never read, for example, Edge of Destiny or take note of the actions, sayings, and reactions of the various dragon minions to see that the Elder Dragons do have personalities and characters (they just don’t feel like speaking our language, I guess, and let their minions do the talking, which tends to be ‘all hail the dragon!’ with some tidbits mixed in).
It’s nice that you gotta dig for things, but when you get some facts only through interviews or out-of-game lore documents like those stories that’s been presented on guildwars2.com for the living story… it’s somewhat annoying because you get… well, the OP here.
I suspect that the Elder Dragons don’t face each other because they’re not ready to. They’ve been spending hundreds of years building up their forces.
The deep sea dragon has been pushing karka out for a while, it’s not just something new because of Zhaitan’s death – it’s just that the karka had somewhere to go now that Zhaitan died.
Also, we know for a fact that the Elder Dragons are hostile. We’ve been explicitly told that their minions fight each other, so all six Elder Dragons working for some “supreme Elder Dragon” doesn’t fit. Which is, imo, a good thing because quite frankly, the concept of always having to face a larger threat is a terrible one.
Also, you’re misunderstanding something about the difference of GW1 and GW2’s end boss fights. In GW1, you’re right – it was “you” (as part of a small group of heroes) who killed Khilbron, Shiro, Abaddon, and the Great Destroyer (though I’d say your reaction was a bit far fetched, since threat wise Shiro and Khilbron were on par, as were Abaddon and the Great Destroyer (well, believed to be at the very least). In GW2, however, you’re wrong. It’s not “you” who killed Zhaitan, nor is it “you and four others.” It’s “the entire united forces of Tyria known as the Pact, aided by Destiny’s Edge and led by you.”
When you face the Ancient Karka and Molten Alliance, it’s not the Pact who killed Zhaitan fighting them. It’s a group of adventurers/commander of the Pact working with local forces.
Yeah, the lack of lore on Orr is a bit disappointing, but there’s also still quite a lot if you pay attention… just not to much on the PoIs and the like.
There have been past threads asking about the pre-Cataclysm look of Orr. We have only a handful of concept art, including the Explorable Mode loading screen for Arah (which is also featured in the story mode cinematic).
For the current zones? Unlikely. It could be done, but then new players would have a really messed up personal story where they go into instances and you got risen everywhere but once outside, no risen and no corruption? Doesn’t really work out. However, there’s room for three new zones (one between Arah and Malchor’s Leap/Straits of Devastation – thin and long like Lornar’s Pass is; one on the south end of Orr; and one on the east end of Orr) which could be made to show this.
Peninsula* not island (though it’s called an island, it is only in the means that you have very shallow water surrounding a very thin strand of land). As to if the new areas will be made explorable – depends on why it would be. Without a plot relevant, no. But with one, yes. Best bet is for going to Elona.
No, you’d still have years and years of construction to fix all those wrecked structures. I guess the gods could possibly snap their fingers a few times and its done, but I don’t think any are a “god of construction” (as their power seems to focus only in their domain, and not being all powerful in all regards). Besides, first you’d have to get the gods to return, and it doesn’t seem like they will, imo.
More than likely.
Exactly. No one else was wary of them but Adelbern, and he proved to be right.
He only was “wary” of them because of his racist view of Krytans in general. He would have reacted the same to the Lionguard or priests of Dwayna from Kryta as he did the White Mantle.
He didn’t look at them as “White Mantle who were tricking the Krytan people and killing thousands over the course of five years” – he didn’t even look at them as “the White Mantle.” He looked at them as “Krytans.” Nothing more, nothing less, and for simply being Krytan he said “get the kitten off my lawn.”
Whats the whole riddle from guild wars 1 mean? It seems more of a warning to me.
An offering to those who seek
Beyond the mists beyond the dreams
On distant shores of a land unwaking
Answers there lie in waitingI know the third line means Orr rising.
“An offering to those who seek”
Offer what?“Beyond the mists, beyond the dreams”
The Mist Wars maybe? And something to do with the sylvari?
“Answers there lie in waiting”
Might just be a continuation on the rising of Orr part, but what answers?
Jeff Grubb semi-answered that as it referring to Arah which held answers about the Six Gods, elder races, and Elder Dragons. By semi-answering, he says “it may refer to Arah, but we’ll find out.” And thing is – it fits Arah to the t. Arah holds answers of things beyond the Mists (mursaat/forgotten/Six Gods) in a land then unwaking (Orr).
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Kasmeer is my current bet, truth be told, though I’m hoping that it’s someone like Lazarus or the like. Someone more iconic than some persuasive noble from Divinity’s Reach that, despite being a noble, knows how to do physical work.
Besides, there’s one thing going against her being the nemesis: Flame Legion DESPISES both humans and female. Yet the nemesis convinced the Flame Legion to go to the dredge and then convinced the dredge to work with the Flame Legion’s proposal. She’d have to be one hell of a sweet talker to convince the Flame Legion to work with her ideas.
My point is simply that it doesn’t classify as “inhumane.”
@Narcemus: Not necessarily – while Snarl and Galina (sp?) were part of the one that joins you irregardless, there are others that’s part of only one side. If you were to remove yourself, Snarl, and Galina (sp?) from the scouting party, it wouldn’t be much to presume that the scouting party got wiped out, and with no incoming “food” the Mouth gets impatient and comes out.
While if you join the scouting party, the group taking out the supply route fails because of no artillery barrage from the ghostfire cannons.
If memory serves me correctly, Trahearne mentions that you could join either side, not that you and all other allies do only one way. TBH, I would be more surprised if Trahearne decided to only do one means of attack rather than two – in case one way fails, there’d be a backup plan.
There are bone structures, but if I remember right […] there were man made structures there too, which lead me to believe that it was a spot made to commemorate the action of Grenth claiming godhood. I find it personally hard to believe that something as big as Grenth taking Dhuum out would be forgotten by the people of the area, especially if Dhuum was the tyrant he’s made out to be. And it is not stated, though it could be true and we are not told of it, that the gods did anything to wipe out history of Dhuum like they did with Abaddon.
That man made structure is fully explained during the story path to destroy the “factory” making Risen when you’re given the option to attack said “factory” or to attack the largest ship that’s bringing corpses to Orr. It is, as I said in my previous post, the ossuary of the Temple of Lyssa. It is where the followers of Lyssa were buried. The temple’s crypt. It’s not there to commemorate Dhuum’s fall (otherwise it’d be dedicated to Grenth, not part of Lyssa’s temple) and I believe it was there before Dhuum’s fall (again, otherwise the structure would be dedicated to Grenth, even if the knowledge of being where Dhuum was defeated was forgotten).
And the location chosen to create new Risen.
Well, to be fair, the White Mantle were the head of Kryta at the time and they betrayed the Ascalonians and the Krytan monarchy.
That didn’t matter to him. Krytan was Krytan and no one at the time thought ill of the White Mantle. If anything, the change in government would have made Adelbern kinder to the Krytans, not unchanged.
The model seems to have been scrapped as a largos, and re-used with minor modifications (specificaly to where/how the “wings” attach to the back) for the Statue of Dwayna and the High Priestess/temple Priestess. Don’t use that as much stalk for theorycrafting.
What could be used for theorycrafting, however, would be largos and Orrian naming styles and the fact Sayeh could read Orrian.
From The Movement of the World.
Although it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion—to the cause, warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn. These initial skirmishes taught both sides to respect the strength of the other.
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