Guild Wars 2

My very old and outdated (but not disproven – there’s just more information found that works with or independent from my research/stance) theory on Mordremoth’s minions.

My findings were more or less summarized by draxynnic.

My personal theory is that the Nightmare Court are being manipulated by Mordremoth via the Nightmare. Not corrupted, just manipulated.

Keep in mind that sylvari are immune to dragon corruption – rather than being corrupted, they simply die. The reason for this is unknown, but we know that dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruptions. So we know for a fact that the sylvari are not dragon minions – given this, Malyck, and the nature of how sylvari are made all being different.

The Nightmare witnessed within the Dream of Dreams, however, does seem very similar to dragon corruption, so it may be Mordremoth’s influence. Not just for the “there’s no turning back” that joining the Nightmare Court have, which may be an indication of either Mordremoth finding a way around the “immune to corruption” or that the mere influence is enough to prevent return, but there’s also the “pods” that the NC toss sylvari into to twist to their cause – very similar to the blocks of ice and crystal seen to make icebrood/branded in Frostgorge Sound and Iron Marches respectively (northeastern areas in both zones).

Fafnir.5124:

Proof is in that all Sylvari are connected to the tree share a hive mind like the dragons.

Wrong. The Dream of Dream is not a collective consciousness. It’s a one-way reception of memories. Think of the Dream of Dreams like a television, and the sylvari are recording devices.

Dragon minions function differently – they hear the dragon’s thoughts, and the dragon learns everything they know, and have known. The dragon minions’ mentality and thoughts are also changed, turned into fanatic followers of the dragon. It’s not a case of the dragons seeing what their minions have seen like the sylvari, but learning everything there is to learn.

Furthermore, dragon minions have shown no sign of sharing knowledge among each other.

Fafnir.5124:

additional proof Sylvari are spawned by the tree like the dragon minions from the dragons.

Wrong. Don’t forget that dragons cannot create, only corrupt pre-existing things. However, the sylvari are born – are created – from the Pale Tree. Even destroyers come from lava and rock. The more dragon minions there are, the less ground and beings there are. But the more sylvari there are, the amount of ground and beings is unchanged.

In short:
The sylvari themselves are nothing like dragon minions. The Dream of Dreams doesn’t function the same as dragon minion collective consciousness or fanaticism. But the Nightmare may, but not the sylvari on a whole in any way shape or form. And hell, the stone dwarves are closer to dragon minions than sylvari. They were turned from flesh to something elemental, given a collective consciousness, and had their mentality changed to becoming fanatic for something (destruction of Elder Dragons).

Lokheit.7943:

in fact I think Jormag doesn’t even care and they’re just passively corrupted like any creature standing on Jormag’s “radiation”, I think at best Jormag finds the SoS amusing

I’d disagree with this. Jormag is said by a Whispers agent in the Arundon Vale of Frostgorge Sound to convince individuals to join him before corrupting (while other Elder Dragons corrupt to enslave), and the Frost Portal makes mention of offering strength by joining Jormag. There’s also mention within Edge of Destiny about how the first Sons of Svanir were seduced via promises of power, and we saw how the Dragonspawn was trying to corrupt Zojja by making her interested in it. Then in Honor of the Waves’ story mode, that Koda’s Bane norn calls upon Jormag after corrupting the Voice for more power, and is granted such – this shows that the SoS take power after proving their worth (be it because they’re opening a “channel” to Jormag, or because Jormag is offering it as a reward).

This points to Jormag wanting to corrupt those who seek strength or are powerful, so I think those gifts truly are “blessings” proactively granted from Jormag. Jormag is also said to hand-select his champions, the Claws of Jormag.

That’s why I mentioned cease fire. Kind of going about saying “we can settle our differences after all our lives aren’t threatened by external forces.”

I don’t think that Trahearne is any more against the NC or closer to the Pale Tree than other Firstborn – he certainly isn’t more against the NC than Caithe, or more against the Inquest than Malomedies. And as he loves to say, he’s a scholar – a man who thinks logically, and the logical option is to get allies where you can when facing against impossible odds. At the very least negotiating, or trying to negotiate, a cease fire would lessen the strain on the Pact and the Wardens, allowing more resources to go after the Elder Dragons.

Kilic, that plaque is what Dasor was translating.

My question is where are these “Marriner Plaques” around LA?

In the case of the landscape, not quite so. Ghosts of Ascalon describes the grass more like glass than crystal, and it crunched under their feet as they walked. Made it sound very brittle. It’s only the Branded themselves that really seemed sturdy, and even then a single a charr (Almorra) was able to kill her whole Branded warband.

I’d view Kralkatorrik’s crystal as being a flawed or imperfect kind of crystallization, being more brittle than most other kinds of crystals.

wouw.5837:

There are 2 kinds of candy wich are named after a dragon one is named after Zaithan (SPOILER HE IS DEAD)
and the other one is named after Kralketorikk,

This super amount of proof must mean it’s Kralkie who is next!

If that’s your argument – which is incredibly poor – there’s also candy named after Jormag (Jorbreakers, I think it was called – a pun of jaw breakers; just like Zhaitaffy is a pun of taffy candy, and Kralkachocolate is, well, obvious). The dragon bull’s eye boards are also of those three champions – The Shatterer, the Claw of Jormag, and Tequatl.

And face it – Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, and Jormag are the most up front Elder Dragons. Of course they’d be the one which gets everything named after them.

This hardly proves anything.

If you just wanted to make a thread about what people think will be the next Elder Dragon, a thread exists related to Dragon Bash.

wouw.5837:

and what if we destroy the ED, isn’t the world going to be imbalanced?

There’s nothing to really support this claim. There’s a hypothesis that magic continuously is created in the world and the Elder Dragons “balance” it by being a reset button for it (with the side-effect of wiping out almost all life), but it’s just a hypothesis and no indication of what happens if that reset button isn’t pressed.

Obsidian.1328:

True…but I would think written or otherwise visual representation of something in the actual game takes precedence over an interview. After all, it’s the finished product (granted future editing certainly comes into play). Gamer conventions, or similar events, aren’t courtrooms or publishing houses. Their answers aren’t really expected to be set in stone.

The bold makes the game itself just as credible as an interview.

“Finished product”? No, the game is not the finished product. The living story and expansions are still coming, and can still alter the lore. The finished product will be when the series ends, for good. Until then, all lore in the game is subject to be expanded upon – from all games, and even the books.

Statements straight from the proverbial horse’s mouth is better than statements from fallible NPCs.

You must keep something in mind: What Jeff and other devs say is the state of the lore and the game as of that very moment, irrefutably. Can it change? Yes. But until it does change, it hasn’t as far as we’re informed, and in turn, concerned – otherwise, we can argue that anything has changed sense, and at that point I have every right in the universe to argue that Zhaitan is the name of Logan’s castrated kitten that went berseker. On the flip side, what NPCs in the game say is the state of their view and knowledge of the lore, meaning that they can be wrong.

TL;DR:

• The developers are never wrong in what they say until they decide to change it and no sooner.
• Until it is changed, what is the case, is the case.
• NPCs and other in-game sources are all fallible unless it is a first-hand knowledge (e.g., “I was doing this”) and they’re not lying. However, until countered or implied to be false, they should be treated as correct.

Ludovicus.7980:

Not if he regrets having said that.

What he regrets is that they had to kill him off, not that he regrets saying he’s dead.

The deed was done, and Jeff Grubb wishes they could have redeemed him instead. Abaddon was a character Jeff liked and saw more potential for. But what was said is that he’s dead.

Obsidian.1328:

I believe in a middle ground between absolutism and complete relativity. Is truth subjective or objective? It’s both imo.

Correct, and a developer’s statement is objective – if the statement is worded to be an uncertainty, then it’s an objective uncertainty.

It is the in-game sources – for example, the History of Tyria from the prophecies manuals, or Thruln the Lost in Hoelbrak – that are subjective.

And in both cases, it is a situation of “new lore trumps old lore; objective lore trumps subjective lore; new subjective lore calls old objective lore into question but does not trump it outright.”

Not necessarily. Ritualists originally used magic prior to the gift of magic, but nothing actually says that, with the new information on magic we have, that their magic doesn’t fall into the four schools. Keep in mind the following:

1. Ritualists predate the “gift of magic” in 1 BE; however, so does magic itself and if the theory that magic is naturally “produced” (via whatever means) between dragon cycles, then the Ritualists could have been accessing this magic that’s naturally made, and if the four schools equally divide all kinds of magic, then the ritualist is still using those four schools – just not as the four schools divide it (or not a single school).
2. Ritualists eventually merged into using Bloodstone magic; what their original form was is unknown, or if the merging was proactive – it could have occurred simply because the magic they were using beforehand just happened to be among those four schools. Reports say they were strengthened, but were they really? Human history isn’t entirely accurate when it comes to the origin of magic and the gods (everything else seems to be, just the things related to those two topics). Maybe they were weakened, reduced from using say 3 schools to using just 1.
3. Alternatively, Ritualists seem to use magic primarily via spirits – these spirits in turn may be limited to the Bloodstone’s schools, but the Ritualist via these spirits can bypass the “can’t use all four schools” limitation and either use all four schools – or all four and then some, depending on how much of the kinds of magic the four schools encompass.

And even if, despite those points, the Ritualist’s magic is 100% not one of the four schools, then what is it? It seems to be best described as “Communing Magic” (to use the name of one of the attribute lines). That is to say, that their magic may merely be the final point – the act of communication with the Mists. Transportation magic, interdimensional magic, or the like. In this essence, they’d be like Havrouns, I suppose.

Though digressing a bit, and a realization as I wrote this, there is one sample we have for magic before the bloodstones:

Cliffside Fractals

It’s based at the beginning of history in Tyria, and includes humans – the Archdiviner summoning spectral creatures, making him feel fairly ritualist-like. The magic that the Chanters and Archdiviner uses very well may be the original form of the Ritualists’ magic.

Interactable objects (the yellow stuff) is the most certain means of getting lore. NPC dialogues – both ambiant voice overs and the dialogue boxes – can provide lore from time to time. Basically if you see a named NPC, talk to him/her/it; sometimes generically named ones give dialogue boxes, but rarely.

Then there’s the personal story, that actually gives a lot more lore than people give credit for. In fact, I’d say most of the lore comes from the personal stories – issue is that you’d have to make/remake a total of 15 characters to go through all story arcs, ignoring the splits for a single story step (with such, it’d be 30) – luckily, only 3 would be needed to get to lvl 80, 6 to lvl 70, and then 10 to lvl 50, and 30 to lvl 30.

The “interview” actually wasn’t such, but rather the 2006 PAX Panel. Anet should still have the 6 part videos of it on their youtube page, I think it was the second video but not sure.

There was another confirmation, because someone felt the need to have him clarify it, since his statement in the PAX Panel was along the lines of “I wish we could have had Abaddon redeemed, but it was necessary that he wasn’t” – the death of Abaddon was only implied – and said person wanted clarification that they actually did kill Abaddon off for good, to end some debates that were happening at the time iirc.

Sadly, I don’t recall where said interview was.

Ludovicus.7980:

Hahaha, you both made me feel like the conspiracy theorist of the lore forum. The funny thing is that even though you’ve presented plenty and rational points. I still feel there’s a connection there.

I think you just called yourself a conspiracy theorist yourself, by saying that you feel there’s a connection when it’s been countered with a lot of rational points – I think that’s the very definition of a conspiracy theorist. But hey, conspiracies are FUN!

Ludovicus.7980:

I’d even put the 6 starting professions from GW1 in there.
Warrior: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Champion_of_Balthazar
Monk: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Dwayna_
Necro: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voice_of_Grenth
Ranger: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Melandru%27s_Watcher
Mesmer: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Muse
Elementalist: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Kormir

[…]

And before you prove me wrong, let me do that myself:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria
(see the patronage)

And you’re point? You give no context to this. And those avatars mean nothing, as that’s their own personal profession listed.

The Avatar of Kormir is a paragon, not elementalist. And Kormir hasn’t been shown to be the patron of any profession. After that, the same thing occurs with the schools of magic, and in fact we covered these professions directly already. Protection and Smiting monks pray to Balthazar; elementalists pray to all gods. And this is just the “common situation” – there is nothing that says that a necromancer cannot pray to Dwayna instead of Grenth, for example.

Dustfinger.9510:

edit 2: and the gods may as well, but that would all be dependant on where the actual mantle of godhood derives it’s power from and under which specific rules. We know there are rules because the gods aren’t omnipotent, but we don’t know the specifics of those rules until a-net clarifies.

Unless the schools were modeled after the Six Gods, the gods are not limited to them. They’re known to be gods – at least three of them – upon their arrival onto Tyria (Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar). While the other four (Dhuum, Abaddon, Lyss, and Ilya) are unknown to have been gods upon the arrival on the world, they were gods before the Bloodstone’s division and their mantle of power – that indestructibleness that makes them gods – likely comes from off of Tyria just like with Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar.

The real question we need is this: do the schools incorporate all magic divided perfectly, or is there magic that can exist outside the scope of the four schools?

Hjorje.9453:

Tyria creates its own magic some how. Correct?

Unproven but that’s the ongoing theory that hasn’t been really disagreed with among the community. We know that the Elder Dragons are said to consume all magic before going to hibernation from starvation (and failed the last awakening) in cycles, so it’s logical that magic must come back from somewhere – what or where that “somewhere” is, is the question. It could be naturally created from the world, it could be coming from the Mists, it could be that magic naturally “uncorrupts” itself while the dragons hibernate. It may even be that with each hibernation, the magic remains corrupted, but the Elder Dragons and how they corrupt magic change, so they could take the same magic they previously corrupted and twist it a whole new way. Though the last two ideas is kind of like someone eating their own puke after it dries into something solid. Not a pleasant mental image.

Hjorje.9453:

Since the ED consume magic, would that mean they have awakened because magic in the world has gotten to a point it woke them from their slumber like in the past, or are they just on a cycle and wake at a certain point?

My personal theory is that magic is a naturally generated phenomina in the world of Tyria, and that the Elder Dragons when the magical concentrations are at a high level in the world, where they consume it all and then go back to sleep. It’s a cycle that would normally take the same amount of time, because the flow of magic doesn’t change. However, thanks to the seers in the last cycle taking all of the magic into the Bloodstone, they not only went to sleep early, but when Abaddon released the magic, they then woke up early.

Given various pieces of evidence – the G-Lupe’s extinction in 10,000 BE, the jotun holding records of multiple risings, Sieran saying the first dwarven architecture are “over 2,000 years old” (rather than 10,000 years old to match the G-Lupe’s extinction, the proclaimed “last rise of the ED” timeframe – this places the first dwarven structures to date back to ~2,000 BE to 1,000 BE – 2k to 3k years prior), and the timeline from Prophecies saying the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1,768 BE – I suspect that the natural ED cycle is roughly every 4,000 years – marking their rises at approx. 10,000 BE, 6,000 BE, 2,000 BE (last rise), and now – a bit early – at 1,000 AE. In other words, my theory is that the ED woke up about 1,000 years early this cycle, thanks to the Seers and Abaddon’s actions. In turn, I’d mark the supposed Age of the Giants ending wither either 10,000 BE or 6,000 BE’s rise, with the jotun around for all three of those previous rises, and their fall occuring at the last rise thanks to the Seer taking their magic and putting it into the Bloodstone.

But this is all still theory crafting.

-continued in next post; dang character limit-

Keep in mind that, traditionally, the word god simply refers to a governing being of a higher plane of existence – usually the afterlife – who is capable of making and taking life, and either naturally or has a means to not age.

In short, outside of the monotheistic gods, the term god simply refers to a being of great power that governs aspects of reality.

The Six Gods do this – they do not age, to our knowledge; Grenth may, but he’s a half-god. They govern an aspect of life (War, Death, Life, Nature, Beauty/Illusion, and Knowledge). And they live on another plane of existence (afterlife) – though they once lived among mortals.

However, the main thing for the Six Gods is their power. The power itself is indestructible, and without containment of a living being (?) it would explode and destroy everything – supposedly, that is. Such hasn’t happened, but we have seen the magical energy of a god (Abaddon’s) going haywire before Kormir stepped into it to absorb it. In terms of GW, you can more or less define the word “god” as “a container for indestructible power that must be contained or else” and “false god” as “powerful being that is worshiped” with “half-god” being “child of a container for indestructible power that must be contained or else” (we really have no clue what would have happened if Grenth was killed off, or why he would be considered a half-god unless some of Dwayna’s indestructible power “seeped” into him while he was in her womb – which is highly likely, and thus Grenth would have a little of that indestructible power).

I should clarify the bold part in the paragraph you quoted – there is no reason to believe that they are restricted to the four schools of magic. They may use them, they may not; they may use magic just as it is originally – unlimited by the schools – and in turn be capable of using those schools, but more than just the schools, more than one school (even all four at once), or alternatively they simply mimic the schools without actually using them.

Honestly though, how the schools are limited to being unable to use all four by a single creature is confusing, and I’m curious if the Elder Dragons actually are limited to the bloodstone magic – since they make their own magic from pre-existing magic, I personally doubt it. They would consume magic from the four schools and elsewhere and turn it into something else entirely – that’s my belief, at least.

Raestloz.7134:

Didn’t Adelbern summon Foefire to wipe his city? Perhaps Ebonhawke was spared because it technically isn’t part of “Ascalon City”

The Foefire affected all humans in Ascalon – it’s why there are ghosts in Iron Marches, Diessa Plateau, Plains of Ashford (outside the city) and even in Blazeridge Steppes. It was only limited to Ascalon City in regards to how it affected charr.

How it affected charr is actually rather interesting, given the fact that it affected cows and cats in a similar manner to humans.

@Narcemus:

I was going off of how Aggression spells work to. Life stealing, empowerment through sacrificing one’s own life, giving “life” to corpses, bringing pain or benefits upon action. These are all things that are focused upon movement and being proactive. Of course we cannot tell the fine details of how the magic work, but Aggression seems to be effectively the “magic of movement.”

Regarding how Primordus and the DSD make minions – I’m thinking of the spawning pools making destroyers. They slowly form destroyers, and to me with the appearance of Destroyers, it seems more like it doesn’t do any fracturing but perhaps more of liquifying and resolidifying. This doesn’t really spell “destruction” to me, but merely changing form. Otherwise destroyers would be far more rigged, while they look smoother. Don’t get too stuck up on the name, but Destroyers would be more of, well, none of the schools of magic.

Which is what I think to be a massive problem people make. Magic is not limited to those four schools on whole. Magic from the bloodstone is – previously thought to be magic on Tyria, but with the Elder Dragons and the Mists, we got a whole wider spectrum of magic – and that’s ignoring the naturally appearing magic not from the Bloodstones (since the Elder Dragons consume all magic in the world each cycle, it has to either uncorrupt itself or more be made in order for the ED to work in cycles).

The DSD is harder, since we only got a single statement on it, but I think you’re way too tied up into the concept of magic focused on elements – water isn’t only used by elementalists, keep in mind, Necromancer use it in large amount through ice effects. Honestly, I’d be more compelled to link it to aggression – making something that is not solid and giving it a very specific shape, form, and movement. I would hardly call that “destruction”.

Regarding Kralkatorrik – his breath was described as plasma. He basically crystallized via intense heat. This is far from preservation like you claim. What this is, is anyone’s guess – but of the four schools I’d link it closest to Destruction, given the other aspects of Kralkatorrik’s magic.

But I just simply think it’s a mistake to try to limit the Elder Dragons to the four schools of magic, because lets face it – they don’t use the four schools of magic. They predate the bloodstone which predates the schools. We cannot think of the Elder Dragons’ magic in four simple dimensions. Nor can we think of the gods’ magic under them – I bet the schools were modeled after the gods’ magic, but certainly not everything the gods have.

And again: Destruction != only element manipulation (in both being the only way to, and only able to). It’s just the most obvious application.

Narcemus.1348:

Aggression – This has always seemed to strike me as self inflicting wounds in order to harm an enemy worse than you have harmed yourself. Many Necromancer skills have a sort of backlash effect, although this is not always the case (and people are free to challenge me on this).

Aggression acts on movement – whether it be giving movement to the inanimate (minions), or reacting to movement and action. If you’re “aggressive” (proactive), then you trigger the magic – or it makes something “aggressive” (active) when it previously wasn’t.

That’s how I always took it at least.

Narcemus.1348:

Assassins revere Lyssa
[…]
Monks revere Dwayna (except smiters who revere Balthazar)
[…]
Ritualists revere Grenth I believe, though there may be room for Dwayna as well
[…]
Dervishes and Paragons revere all if I remember right, being holy warriors and all.

Assassins revere both Lyssa and Grenth, actually.

Monks revering Balthazar are Smiting and Protection, actually. Usually overlooked, but truth.

Ritualists are only said to revere Grenth.

Dervishes revere all, but Paragons are Dwayna and Balthazar, like Monks.

Ludovicus.7980:

@Konig
Just one thing. There’s now school of aggravation. It’s aggression.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic

Aggravation, aggression. They’re the same concept – same word, actually, just different usage (aggravation is making others aggressive; aggression is the act of being aggressive). I had originally said that the school of Aggression aggrivates, but erased that for further explanation. It’s VERY hot here in my house, so the heat probably got me mixing my thoughts up and making me forget to correct that bit.

Irregardless, name mistake aside, my point remains unchallenged.

Narcemus.1348:

Destruction – We know of at least two elder dragons that seem to fracture or destroy the basic fabric of elements to create their minions. Primordus does this to create Destroyers, but the DSD also does this to create his minions. Until ArenaNet changes their lore, he creates tentacled minions out of the water itself.

No dragon “fracture or destroy” the basic fabric of elements for their minions. They twist and change. There’s no destruction seen or shown involved with making Destroyers – or the tentacles, for what little we know. If any dragon fits Destruction with how it does things with magic, it’s Kralkatorrik.

He turns into a sandstorm, breaking his own body down in the process. The lightning and fire he uses destroys and scorches. The crystals Branded make shatter to damage foes.

Kralkatorrik is far more Destruction school of magic than Primordus has shown to be any day. And far more of an Elementalist, utilizing three of them personally.

Ludovicus.7980:

Elementalists(Destruction) wielded power to destroy magic itself and feed on it (ether renewal, aura of restoration)

This is the first bit I disagree with. I don’t see Destruction as the destruction of magic, but using magic to destroy physically. The schools of magic are quite literal in their names, in how they act with other things – with aggravation being the less direct). Preservation works upon things being preserved; Denial works upon things being denied; Aggravation works upon things being in motion; Destructions works on things breaking down (effectively being destroyed) – be it harmful or helpful or neutral things being affected.

Ludovicus.7980:

I see the same raw power on the visible dragons.
Jormag is a monkish dragon (Dwayina)
Kralkatorrik is a mesmerish dragon (Lyssa)
Primordious is an elementalish dragon (Balthazar)
Zhaithan is a necroish dragon (Grenth)

Jormag’s far from monkish. He and his minions are outright stated to affect others via the mind – read through Edge of Destiny if you haven’t. He doesn’t heal anything, and over time his minions deteriorate into ice. They’re not being preserved, they’re being changed and weakened (old icebrood, in lore, are harder to take down from piercing shots but easier to take down with blunt force – ice shatters).

Kralkatorrik is most related to Elementalism in regards to professions. There’s nothing mental about him – the only mental aspects to him we have ever seen is when he’s attacked mentally. He twists with his fiery breath, his minions are of crystal and use lightning, earth, crystal, and fire attacks. The only connection to mesmerism Kralkatorrik has is the color purple.

Same goes with Primordus – other than having minions of fire, there’s no ties to elementalism. Of course, he doesn’t hold ties to other professions either, but we don’t really know much about him except his supposed desire to genocide all life (whereas other dragons seek to twist and/or control all life). In a similar manner, Balthazar is nor more of an Elementalist than the other gods are – Dwayna is Air; Melandru is Earth; Balthazar is Fire; Grenth/Lyssa make up Water.

And this is where things truly fall apart for you – Elementalism doesn’t have a single god, and every dragon holds an element to themselves (sans Zhaitan). There is no profession to dragon linking because there is no monk dragon (unless its Mordremoth or the DSD), and all dragons are linked to a quarter of Elementalists.

Besides, you’re ignoring the other spellcasters completely. What about Ritualists, who don’t use a school of magic per se but rather bypass the bloodstone via spirits? What about thieves who also use denial but aren’t related to chaos? Where’s Kralkatorrik’s tie into thieves?

And as shown via Mesmers and Thieves, the same school of magic can be used in multiple manners, with multiple fronts. I bet you that, lore-wise, it is possible to use the Destruction school of magic without ever once touching the concept of elements – and in turn, Elementalism.

Ludovicus.7980:

Knowing nothing about this last dragon, nothing forbid us to peer it with Kormir.

“Knowing nothing about Arachnia, nothing forbid us to peer it as the queen and mother of all gods.”

Doesn’t work like that, sorry, because nothing allows you to pair (not peer, I’m sure) it with Kormir either.

Ludovicus.7980:

But there’s nothing that says the contrary. And they have thematical and aesthetical similarities.

There’s less thematical and aesthetical similarities than you seem to believe. But you must realize that “the lack of evidence” is not always not “the evidence of lacking.” Sometimes the lack of evidence is the evidence of lacking. And this is more likely than not, obviously unprovable, such a case.

I think that if there was more connection, such would have been hinted at by now. But instead, we’re only told things that imply the contrary – even if it isn’t saying the contrary.

I don’t see how wanting other people to use the search function of the forum, provided in an obviously seen place in an easy-to-use format, is wanting other people to “do what you do and think like you think.” Possibly the first, but it’s such a minor, easy-to-do thing that it’s hardly considerable to be “what you do,” nor is it all that out there for expecting others to use the search function, especially when it’s so commonly said to search first.

jheryn.8390:

It seems many people on these threads cannot discuss something in a civil manner if someone brings up something they disagree with or have posted before. Some people don’t have the time to go back and read every post ever written in order to maybe avoid discussing something that has been discussed before.

Firstly, there’s actually few cases where there’s uncivilized discussion upon something they disagree with – lately there have been more cases than usual, yes, but that’s not out of disagreement but out of the stubbornness on all sides of the parties for continuing to argue the same thing upon either something that’s fully opinionated (always a sensitive field when neither side has evidence for support – and it is what I can outright name at least three people do frequently), or when discussing things where its been disproven yet there’s still argument for it under the pretense of “well Anet can decide to go against what they said, because they can!” (in most cases at least – certainly not all).

In this case, it’s simply something that’s so often restated that most times a new thread pops up, there’s a thread of it on the very front page.

No one’s asking others to go reading through all threads on the forum. Far from it. But using the search function – or in worse situations, looking at the threads on the front page – is hardly demanding.

jheryn, did I say anything about rudeness? No I didn’t – because rudeness isn’t really acceptable as you say. I did apologize in my own original post if I seemed rude, but kitten it, it comes up too frequently it gets on nerves. And I think it’s obvious I’m not the only one.

But I don’t care who you are or how new you are, the search function isn’t hard to use, and simply searching “6 god dragon” got me a number of related threads.

And being told to use the search function isn’t “snarky and rude” in of itself – as BuddhaKeks said, if people don’t know they made a mistake, how can the learn from it? Being pointed out mistakes in of itself is being helpful. If it comes out as rude, then it comes out as rude. Not everyone in this thread was.

IMO, anyone should be willing to use the search function before asking a question – new or old to the site. I sure as hell know I try searching first.

Ludovicus.7980:

-snip-

You were still using the one dragon to one god “connection” which is what I was saying, in relation to you, about what fails – in my last post, I included “gods are dragons” in counteracting just because it’s an all too common part of the same line of thought.

Anyways, the gods and schools of magic don’t have a direct relation. The Keystone isn’t a school of magic – it’s just a “locking mechanism” for the bloodstones. In the same sense, the Bloodstone schools of magic aren’t the only kinds of magic out there and is in fact, a rather small form of the magic. The bloodstone simply contained all non-corrupted magic from the last ED rise, and the gods divided into into how it can be used when Abaddon went full out releasing it.

Ludovicus.7980:

What I’m saying is that they share something. Some raw power that I personally believe the dragons wield as their very essence in a way brutal and out of control and the gods have only tapped into it.

You’re right. They did tap into the magic of dragons. But only Zhaitan. See my previous post.

Ludovicus.7980:

I think there’s some underlying story for that power and I wouldn’t be surprised if we find a 6th lost bloodstone (since we know they were 5 in GW1 http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bloodstone).

I find this extremely unlikely. It’d be shoehorning in to the utmost degree and would only serve to reduce ArenaNet’s (imo failing) credibility with lore. There are four schools of magic, and a locking mechanism referred to as the keystone. The bloodstone’s origins have been spelled out – mostly – to us, as is the gods’ relation to it. There’s no reason to believe that there’s a sixth bloodstone, for the pure sake that the bloodstone isn’t – as you put it – an “absolute power.”

Similarly, I wouldn’t say there’s any relation between gods and schools of magic. Yes, Lyssa is the patron of mesmers and assassins, but all gods are a patron for elementalists (except possibly Kormir) and under that concept, all gods embody Destruction magic.

I will admit that you’ve managed to link Dwayna and Jormag together in a reasonable way, but that link still fails through the whole correlation. Ignoring the whole numbers bit where you got 4-6-6, I would hardly call Kralkatorrik “denial.” – he doesn’t deny, and he doesn’t distort reality (no more than any other dragon). Also, keep in mind that it is Jormag who uses mental powers. So if anything, it’d be Jormag and Lyssa, not Jormag and Dwayna and Kralkatorrik and Lyssa.

But then you’re left with trying to relate Kralkatorrik and Dwayna. Good luck there.

I similarly wouldn’t really put the DSD as knowledge just because we don’t know anything about him – we only know nothing of it because it’s just that far out of reach. It’d be like saying the singularity is a representation of knowledge because we know nothing beyond it. Metaphorically it’d work – though better as the representation of the unknown – but it’d be no different than saying the DSD is a dragon of knowledge.

They were certainly not black and white. Not sure of striped but they were brown primarily.

High Councillor Flaxx’s actions hardly show to me that they’re sticking their head in the ground. His “official” – or public – stance is that he supports whoever gets the most efficiency with minimal cost when it comes to Inquest, and he ignores the Elder Dragons as a threat, like Caudecus. Unofficially, behind the scenes, he’s wiping all things that’d scare Rata Sum with the Elder Dragons – even helpful information – so that he can give a false pretense of security. One can thing he’s an egomaniac, believing that the Elder Dragons will wipe the world but leave the asura unscathed; others, like myself, can call him delusional.

Either way, the Arcane Council seems to be holding the same goal as the Inquest: Survive, and rule afterwards. The Inquest are just being proactive about it, while Flaxx is just hiding in his little levitating bunker with his canned sardine rations (figuratively speaking).

When speaking of national negotations, the main ones that we players come from – Jennah, Knut, Smodur, Pale Tree, and Flaxx – with the exception of Flaxx are all pro-Pact. There’s little to no negotiations to be had. All that’s really needed to figure out is how much support they can and will give, primarily with Knut and Jennah (the former is a leader among independent individuals, the latter is hard pressed with intrigue-based civil war and a different war with unknown state).

What’d be more interesting to see is Trahearne having to negotiate with the true unknowns, or even the enemies: Flaxx, whoever took over the Inquest after Kudu, the dredge (or rather, the revolters), Bangar, whoever took over the Flame Legion after Gaheron, Caudecus, the tengu, the largos, the jotun, and even Faolain.

I can easily see one of the plots mirroring the racial sympathies with “expanding the Pact’s allegiances” – one can go the direction of the more isolated or even hostile races (kodan, largos, tengu, krait, jotun), getting more independent groups of the already-chosen racial sympathy (if Anet knows what’s good for them, they’d do this – bringing back the contacts we met previously to unite the minor races a bit among themselves), or going to open up cease fires with rival groups.

Personally, I think trying to make negotiations between Trahearne and Faolain would be most intriguing. She’s still living, and we’ve been told in an interview that the Nightmare Court are still anti-Elder Dragon (even though there are theories that the NC are, at the very least, indirectly influenced by the Jungle Dragon). One would think it to be possible for Faolain to “put aside differences” temporarily… unless she really is too far gone. But I can definitely see an attempt at such being made.

Another negotiation path that could be explored is getting the backing of more multi-racial orders: the Zaishen, for one, or the Consortium (“if you fund the Pact, and once we succeed, the Consortium will be known for those who gave aid to those who saved the world – that would bring in a lot of revenue from promotions.” – I can easily see such an argument being made).

Most would probably consider negotiation-related missions to be rather boring, but they might not always be… if kept short enough. And no need to have combat in every story step either. Sometimes having to use your wits, rather than weapons, is an equal challenge. Though it’d make all too much heavy working with the dialogue boxes, rather than cinematics, if our own characters were to argue – which would be needed if it’s mostly talking.

Ludovicus.7980:

I won’t even bother answer Konig’s thread because I know he will disagree with every word I’m going to say, so there’s no point on me arguing with him.

If you can logically explain to me how the goddess of life and healing is related to the dragon of snow and ice, or how the goddess of knowledge and spirit is related to the dragon of water, be my guess and explain it. Maybe you’ll manage to convince me that the Seventh Reaper is a possible liar about Grenth’s state, or convince me that it makes sense that a race dedicated to the Six Gods were actively fighting their draconic version, or how they can both appear humanoid and yet also draconic.

Perhaps you can convince me of all these things that scream “gods!=dragons.” I’m not unreasonable, if an argument makes sense, I can be convinced. So do explain, and I shall listen.

Ludovicus.7980:

Every time a god takes over, he/she gives the power slot a new meaning. Like kormir changing secrets into truth. But her underlying power is basically the same, knowledge.

Abaddon was the god of knowledge, only called secrets because he was a secret. Kormir was, similarly, also referred to as the Goddess of Secrets by some at first – her full Nightfall title was “Goddess of Knowledge, Secrets, and Truth.” Spirit got tacted on in Eye of the North via the Cipher of Spirit; and Order got tacted on in GW2, with “truth” and “secret” taking a backseat to Knowledge on a whole.

Ludovicus.7980:

I loved how the aspect of the gods quest on EotN hinted that dragons may be related to gods as for every one of the 6 gods there was a dragon aspect.
I’m not saying that the gods are the dragons I’m not saying that they even share a domain. I only say that there’s a connection. Maybe there’s their raw power source. Maybe there’s something else. Because the Aesthetical theme is far to close (and note that my reason is not entirely based on lore but on graphic design).

There is a relation: The facets were tied to the Forgotten and an indication of power which the gods harnessed. In Arah, we find out that the power harnessed was Zhaitan – when they empowered the bloodstone.

That’s the connection created by The Path to Revelations quest chain in GW1. The cipher at the end hinted at Arah explorable, the draconic facets hinted to both ties to the Forgotten and to the Elder Dragons, and that tie was explained in Arah.

But the Six Gods didn’t get their power from the dragons, they aren’t the dragons, they aren’t the Jekyll of the dragons’ Hyde. The Six Gods simply unknowingly tapped into Zhaitan to strengthen the bloodstone.

Maybe they were affected by this, and this caused them to leave, realizing that they were being corrupted by Zhaitan; maybe they, like the Forgotten, were immune to such and left the world without having any clue as to what they drew that power from. This is the real question to be asking and theorizing about, not whether or not the Six Gods and Elder Dragons are the same or hold a one-to-one connection, because the Six Gods only have a connection to one Elder Dragon, and that one’s now dead.

I think the fact that Zhaitan is outright stated to be different than the Six Gods – in not only the personal story we talk with the Avatar of Grenth, but by the Priests/Priestesses/High Priests/High Priestesses as well as by Randall Graystone (sp?) in Arah explorable – is proof enough to disprove the “theory.”

I don’t think its possible to pull power from a being that is yourself without knowing the source of the power, and it not coming from your own body but some “second body” you had no knowledge of that existed on the world long before you walked it.

The Elder Dragons and the Six Gods existed – physically – at the same time, as two separate, physical, entities.

The Pact already is fighting other Elder Dragons – well, their forced. In Frostgorge Sound, they’re fighting the Claws of Jormag. During Flame and Frost, if you were the Pact Commander you could be asked by Smodur the Unflinching at one point “What’s a Pact commander doing here? Don’t you have dragons to fight?” Indicating that the Pact’s still fighting the good fight.

Ludovicus.7980:

I don’t have anything against Trahearne, but I don’t think he will return. He’s already finished his wildhunt.

You should pay more attention to dialogue more. At the celebratory ending instance during Victory or Death, Trahearne says he’s still got to lead the Pact through five more “impossible victories.”

As for Trahearne’s “reception” by players… Personally, if their voice actor for him just sounded less mechanical, I think most folks would be fine – or at least better off – with him. But as Narcemus said, he can easily “slip into the shadows” being pre-occupied with the politics of things. Nations aren’t really all that willing to give when they’re not in immediate threat. Jennah and Smodur are cooperating, but you can bet your arses that tanks won’t do so good in the Shiverpeak Mountains or Crystal Desert, let alone underwater or underground. Trahearne’s actions when going after the other ED is dealing with the political red tape that is negotiating with Bangar, Malice, Flaxx, Knut, and perhaps even Caudecus, the largos, kodan, and other races’ dignitaries.

Though I suspect that he’s going to primarily remain in Orr to keep restoring it.

I’d be more prone to blame the Iron Legion for mining or simply not giving a kitten to keep the ruins in good condition while they built a city on top of them. Ruins naturally will sink over time, and it’s not unlikely that sinkholes form. No need for seismic activity or Elder Dragon influence – or even mines (which we know exist around the Black Citadel) for that matter. Not to mention that there’s been a lot of underground creatures coming above ground (most commonly seen being skritt and skelk – but don’t forget gravelings which are, imo, a kind of skelk given the models and habitat) who could have dug beneath the ruins and offsettled them..

There has probably been over two dozen threads on this. A quick search of “6 god dragon” gave me four of them.

Short answer: The Six Gods are NOT related to the Elder Dragons.

1. The Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods’ existence on Tyria by tens of thousands of years – if not more. It’s like saying the Reapers were made by the Protheans in Mass Effect.
2. The Six Gods had physical bodies that were very clearly not draconic. Malchor saw the Six Gods in the flesh and crafted the statues which now stand in their cathedrals.
3. The Six Gods left in year 0, arrived at time still unknown but (supposedly) post-ED hibernation. There’d be 1,078 years of neither being active on the world.
4. Zhaitan and Grenth are outright stated in the game to be of opposing forces – rivals, even. Zhaitan is similarly said to be different than the other gods.
5. We see two gods in the flesh – Abaddon and Kormir. Neither are dragons, neither are spirits.

Links that go more in detail on this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/7-Elder-Dragons/first#content
(OP deleted his post, and it didn’t delete the thread, for some reason – the person was suspecting that each ED had their own god, and that Menzies (or was it Dhuum) would have one too)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Theorycraft-Elder-Dragons-and-Gods/first#content
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/My-Theory-on-the-Gods/first (not originally of the topic but devulged into it too)

My personal favorite: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/The-six-gods-are-NOT-ancient-dragons/first#content

Ludovicus.7980:

The state of affairs is that even though we don’t know how’re they related. There’s a relation there.
Balthazar – Primordious
Melandru – Mordramoth
Dwayna – Jormag
Lyssa – Kralkatorrik
Grenth – Zhaitan
Kormir – Chtulhu

I too would like to know more about this, but I think is part of the core story of the game and more information would be released as the time passes.
Even though Konig des Todes would disagree with me, I advise you to go and look Wooden Potatoes’ video about the gods and the dragon aspects on youtube.

And where’s the connection between the Deep Sea Dragon, and the goddess of Truth, Order, and Spirit?

Keep in mind, Kormir does not have domain over water. Abaddon did, but Kormir doesn’t – that domain went to Lyssa.

And how the hell do Jormag and Dwayna relate? Ice and Air/Healing/Life have NOTHING in common. I’ve seen folks compare blizzard/freezing winds to Dwayna’s winds, but Dwayna’s is soothing air.

There’s similarly nothing to really tie Lyssa and Kralkatorrik together, other than Lyssa’s ties to mesmerism which has ties to chaos magic, which seems to be what Kralkatorrik focuses on (though one can easily simply say “lightning, fire, and rock” aka “elements” instead).

It is a FACT that Kormir has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in relation to ANY Elder Dragon. People try to make a connection, but lets face it. There isn’t one, other than the fact that the Six Gods drawed on Zhaitan’s power to strengthen the Bloodstone. They didn’t even know Zhaitan was under Arah. We don’t even have evidence to know that the Six Gods knew of the Elder Dragons, or at least that the Six Gods knew they still lived or were going to become a threat.

And I would hardly use WP’s videos as aid for evidence.

Edit: Sorry if the end of the post seemed hostile. It just gets tiresome after a while, seeing this and people trying to make connections where there are none.

Well, if memory serves me right, Droknah’s Forge is still on a cliff like Droknar’s Forge was. And the surrounding high peaks now make what go above land.

So like how old Lion’s Arch “sunk” yet is in the same placement, it seems elsewhere the water levels simply “rose” to odd amounts (though if they rose to the level of Droknar’s Forge, one would expect that most of Tyria would become rather Waterworld looking.

The way that the sylvari makes it sound isn’t that coral grew over the lands, but that the trees turned into the coral. But that’s my interpretation on it, I guess.

Wouldn’t be the first time they’ve done such, I believe – certainly not where they’ve went and retroactively upgraded old models (the Losaru centaurs in GW1 originally looked akin to the Maguuma or Shiverpeak centaurs (forget which, may have been unique models with same design), but with Nightfall they were “updated” to have the commonplace Elonian centaur models.

Rizalee.4593:

Just want to point out that people keep saying “The rightful King of Ascalon” can end the Curse.. the wiki actually says…

“It is said that if Magdaer or Sohothin returns to Ascalon City in the hands of an heir to King Doric (the only known descendants being Queen Jennah and Commander Samuelsson), then the spirits of the Ascalonian ghosts will be put to rest.

You should read my original post in this thread. The original source for this legend is The Movement of the World which says, and I quote “Some believe that one day, when the rightful king of Ascalon returns with one of the two flaming swords—either Adelbern’s Magdaer or his son’s, named Sohothin—the legion will abandon the city and sink at last into peaceful death.”

There is NEVER mention okitteng Doric in it or the article that was released with it – The Ecology of the Charr which doesn’t mention this “belief” – and it is merely a belief, not truth, not even legend like I incorrectly said before.

You shouldn’t take the wikis – especially GW2W due to its incomplete, and sadly often wrong thanks to a certain few editors (one of whom I got banned for constantly trying to fix, though I admit I got overzealous in it). The article stating “heir to King Doric” is one such incorrect state – this is never once said anywhere and is a pure player (mis)interpretation of that line.

(Edit: I should probably read subsequent posts more often when responding – I like to respond post by post so everything I said is pretty much what drax said, with the addition of links for thee.)

Rizalee.4593:

Well, I will have to do some digging, because I was almost sure I had seen that said someplace other than the wiki, but I can’t for the life of me remember where…

Probably on the forums, which has constantly used the same wording – which came first, the forum or the wiki’s wording, is like asking about chickens and their eggs – or alternatively, an interview where the wording was in the questioner. Or a fan-made summary.

But officially, I’ve never seen it mention “heir to King Doric” and if it wasn’t something accessible on the wiki, books, or in-game, then the wiki should hold a reference tag.

Obsidian.1328:

Well reading the Foefire description on the GW2wiki, it’s the first time I’ve seen Adelbern referred to as a “sorcerer-king.” Was he hiding this dark, magical talent his whole life?

“Sorcerer-King” is the title that the charr gave him, due to casting the Foefire. It is mentioned within relation to Ascalonian Catacombs, by Rytlock I believe. Or at least was.

Obsidian.1328:

Excellent, then there are areas beyond the explorable map that were struck by the Searing, and the Searing hit Ascalon in its entirety. Noted.

[…]

You also shouldn’t ignore pieces of reasonable argument, for or against, just because you want to ignore it.

The Searing hit all of Ascalon, and then some. It literally ended on the northern reaches of the Ascalonian kingdom, and extended further south and – presumably – further east than Ascalon of the day.

And what, per se, have I ignored? Because I don’t think I’ve ignored any. Now, whether I’ve read the full argument or not is another matter, but it wasn’t out of ignoring. My point remains, however, that you shouldn’t exclude Ebonhawke just because it’s part of GW2 and not within GW1.

Obsidian.1328:

Wizard’s Folly I was just baiting. Just like if you overlay the map, Ebonhawke gates literally touch the edge of the southern explorable area in Pre-searing. Or why in the world can you see the North Wall running east to the horizon from Fort Ranik…I mean, if the areas we visit in-game are all there is of Ascalon, and we can’t go there as players, did Ascalonians just build that and abandon it? But whatever, I’m obviously nitpicking.

Uhhhh…That’s not the Wall, and Ebonahwke are far more south than anywhere in pre-Searing (more south than anywhere in post-Searing). The Wall doesn’t go north-south or make a jump south anywhere. That’s an entirely different structure – aqueducts, I believe, actually, given the shape and placement (near water).

I don’t think it even shares models with anywhere but the eastern most – and thinnest – parts of the Great Northern Wall.

Obsidian.1328:

At any rate, my point in all this nonsense is not to take the landscape visuals as factual clues to the actual size of things. The areas we get to explore in-game are simply the areas the devs wanted to, or had time to, show us.

I don’t think anyone would disagree with this statement. I certainly don’t and full-heartedly agree, in actuality. Nonetheless, Ebonhawke wasn’t considered part of the kingdom of Ascalon as of the Searing. It may have likely been a village built on the outskirts of the kingdom – such happens frequently, in fact – and thus not actually part of Ascalon itself, even if those there would consider themselves Ascalonians.

Obsidian.1328:

Furthermore, it makes sense for the current game to encapsulate Ascalon to only what we can see in-game, otherwise they’d have to either extend the radius of the Searing and/or Foefire, or explain away all the random satellite towns/villages/forts/whatever that would surround any kingdom.

Your statement, ironically or not, seems to me t o counteracts your previous paragraph. And I fail to see why the radius of either the Searing or the Foefire would have to be extended. Why couldn’t they just simply not eclipse the entire kingdom? Though the Searing did – and then some – but the Foefire may not have, even if said to (nonetheless, Ebonhawke wasn’t part of Ascalon – this is a fact – at the time). And why would there be a need to explain those satellite towns/villages/forts/etc.? Such scenarios existed in our own history, I do believe – often in the form of colonies or expansion attempts – and are beyond common in fantasy settings.

Erukk.1408:

Do we know if the Foefire was actually a spell or not? To me, it sounded more like the magic of Magdaer trying to fulfill Adelbern’s wants/needs/desires. More of a magic gone awry, then an actually spell. Though, that’s only my personal opinion.

if that was so, then either Ebonhawke would have been taken out too since Adelbern knew they were there. Or it was left alone because Adelbern wanted some humans remaining living to reclaim the land. Hard to tell with a madman.

Obsidian.1328:

Both sets are twins of each other, and both sets are divine in origin(bestowed to humans by the gods).

The staves were not given by the gods, the only relation to the gods there are is that 1) the gods intervened when the nations holding the staves caused horrors to their people, and 2) Abaddon was after them via his minions. The swords are made by Orrians, by the way, so they’re not of divine origins.

draxynnic.3719:

If the theories about a connection between Blighted Husks and Mordremoth is correct, it could be that Mordremoth just likes corrupting plants… and the sylvari are ‘immune’ simply because the other dragons prefer to corrupt things other than plants. (We’ve seen plants corrupted by Zhaitan’s energy in Sparkfly, and by Kralkatorrik in the Dragonbrand but that could be a side-effect of other activity. Certainly, most of the plant life in Orr seems to have been left alone by Zhaitan.)

Not just Blighted Husks, but there are Blighted Grubs. Though I was the one who presented that theory first – publicly on this forum, at least. But it’s still just a theory of a possible Mordremoth minions.

As to immunity due to corruption preference – the thing is, a developer told us that they’re immune to the corruption and simply die instead of becoming a minion. Nothing else does this. Contact with the corruptive magic corrupts absolutely, it’s just that the degree is differing.

Also, Kralkatorrik corrupting plants is a direct dragon-to-corruption thing, and not some roundabout action. Those plants were twisted the same way the land itself was, and far too much of it was twisted within the Dragonbrand to say “something else did it after Kralkatorrik passed” – remember that in Ghosts of Ascalon, there is grass and flowers across the Dragonbrand that became glass-like and cracks underfoot. Though in-game we only see a select handful of corrupted plants, aside from trees there being only some plants, lorewise about the entire Dragonbrand is littered with twisted grass.

And I disagree with plantlife in Orr being left alone by Zhaitan. The only place we really see plantlife left alone is at the temple of Melandru – there’s mention by a Priory sylvari who mentions that the plants themselves had been turned into coral, and in/around Arah there’s those… weird moving plants of… idk what the heck they’re supposed to be.

Getefix.9150:

Beetle.2476:

Just my opinion, but Lions are probably also alive beyond the blazeridge mountains, since Charr are basically talking lions who can walk on 2 legs.

i dont know about you but i havent seen any lions with horns, plus most cats have retractable claws, so if anything, theyre related to doggies… either that or cheetah side but they look too stocky to be cheetahs

@Beetle: There are some “lion-like” charr, but there are more cheetah, leopard, and tiger-like charr. I wouldn’t say that, because of this, there are leopards, cheetahs, jaguars, tigers, and so forth east of the Blazeridge. The charr are basically take traits from various wild felines. Lions, however, are of the lesser quantity.

It’s possible there are lions east of the Blazeridge, but using the charr is no foundation for such.

@Getefix: Charr are feline, this is outright stated in both lore and by developers and are in no way canines. There were more obvious lion-like charr in GW1, but some remain in GW2, with a smaller mane though.

Also, while not shown with the in-game models due to technical difficulties, in lore, charr do have retractable claws.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned that we’ve seen corruption of single beings by multiple dragons — or to phrase it differently, we’ve seen that corruption from one dragon does not stop corruption from another.

I was under the impression that multi-corruption was impossible. Can anyone explain to me where we’ve seen this?

In the Crucible of Eternity dungeon – both story and explorable mode. Kudu, Kudu’s Monster, and Subject Alpha are the three individuals that are corrupted by multiple Elder Dragon energies – Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, Primordus, and Jormag to be specific (with a possible Mordremoth/Jungle Dragon to Subject Alpha).

Narcemus.1348:

Later the Krait found that in Tyria the orb prevents the soul from being re-attached to the body, thus the risen near it never rise again.

This is where you run into a snag. Few risen are shown to hold their souls, and only Orrian ones at that. It seems most of the “mook” risen are soulless, as we have at least two cases, I believe, of souls being around while their corpses were reanimated.

Personal preference on the theory though, I don’t like it because it ties dragon corrupted Risen to being the same kind of thing as actual/typical undead, which isn’t really the case. They’re reanimated through different means, different magic, and different outcomes – not to mention the whole mind-warping.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Thank you for the response. This may need a thread on its own, so in the interests of not derailing this too much further (farther?), this’ll be my last post here on the matter:

Is it possible that such phenomenon can only be achieved through the use of magitech or similar? Perhaps the dragons themselves cannot corrupt the minions of others; perhaps there need to be additional, artificial factors… Ah well.

The matter has been brought up in just about every thread that someone theorizes that the sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions – which is just about every dragon corruption/Mordremoth related thread.

As for the need of artificial factors – in the corruption itself, that seems unlikely. However, we do know that through situations like Kellach and Necromancer Rissa (Human and Charr storylines respectively) that the dragon’s corruption do influence things in different ways when not direct corruption. It is because of this and the shown “limit” to kinds of dragon minions (or rather, how the Elder Dragons make minions) that I suspect each Elder Dragon has a “preference” for what to corrupt – for example, Zhaitan only directly corrupts corpses, reanimating them and sometimes putting souls back into them (but not always), yet Kellach was living when corrupted and Rissa used amulets with Zhaitan’s magic to corrupt living beings (similarly, living animals become sickened when consuming Risen).

So to answer your question: unknown. We don’t see an Elder Dragon directly corrupting another’s minions. However, we know that their magical energies can corrupt without tampering if the means of direction of that energy is simply changed (that is, if the target is changed) even without asuran “magitech” or any other kind of magic or technology – Kellach is corrupted via a twisted Orrian artifact, after all, and the animals in Sparkfly Fen are twisted by eating Risen fish.

If my theory that the Elder Dragons are “picky” about what they corrupt, then you wouldn’t see a Risen Destroyer, for example, as Primordus seems to prefer corrupting land/fire; Kralkatorrik prefers corrupting what’s physical; Jormag prefers corrupting via the mind; Zhaitan prefers corrupting corpses, and we don’t know for the DSD or Mordremoth atm.

Pavees.7281:

you said nothing except “omg it can’t be true because what i must feel must always be true!”

Wrong, because I didn’t even say that.

I said “I don’t think that’s the case, and it’s your opinion that it is the case.”

Either you’re being an ass, or perfectly demonstrating what I was saying earlier about how I write things.

BTW, from what I’ve heard, NCSoft doesn’t call the shots on what ArenaNet does with stories and the like. They simply fund and expect profits.

Pavees.7281:

But i will say 1 thing. The menzies head item was gained from the mystic forge aka a djiin who we offered gifts to get it’s favor which the reward for the specific gifts was this item. Obviously it wasn’t his head, if anything it’s a replica/trophy of a war that was won(fow war). I only mentioned a head on a stick in a symbolic way. I know that menzies could be alive but with zero mention of him in gw2 except a head on a stick. there’s not much else that can be said to what happened to him. saying he’s alive based solely off opinion fails when compared to an item that says “the fate of menzies”.

You do realize that you’re saying he’s dead based solely off of opinion too, given how the item holds no context to it other than a name and appearance, which can go for – as you yourself said – a symbolic meaning. Which being symbolic holds no bearing on what actually happened to him.

I mean, if we go with symbolic meanings, The Fate of Menzies could be representing the notion that Menzies’ fate is to be eternally burning with hatred. Similarly, it could be representing that his fate will be to die in a fire. So saying “he’s dead” based off a symbolic item isn’t really stable ground. A castle built in a swamp is just as stable. But so are my two statements for other symbolic representations of the torch.

@Pavees: Well, really, it’s just opinion versus opinion, one side using empirical evidence of ArenaNet’s action and the other side using an item’s name and empirical evidence of non-ArenaNet’s actions in debating; which was what I was trying to say. Yes it’s possible that the item is meant to be Menzies’ own head on a stick, though I doubt it (not only because it’d be lackluster, but because there can be millions of the item – unless Menzies instantly regrows his own head, I doubt it’d be his own skull). I’d be more inclined to go with Thalador’s view on the torch – that it’s what Balthazar intends/ed for Menzies.

As to Beyond – honestly, if Menzies’ death was to be included in the Beyond plot, I think that is major enough that Beyond wouldn’t have been canceled until afterwards. Though all we know for intended beyond plots was that the next intended chapter was to deal with Elona, and then return to Ascalon to deal with Evennia’s disappearance (and perhaps the founding of Ebonhawke). Being part of the Test Krewe before Beyond’s cancellation, I knew more plans (regarding future heroes to be added) that never made it into the game, but none hinted at Menzies being part of Beyond.

Personally, I suspect its meant to be a possible-future-zone-portal into the Depths of Tyria, similar to the portals/paths found throughout the game which are inaccessible. A pre-placement planning for possible future zones.

I could easily see that being old asuran structure to seal destroyers in the Depths.

Plus, it seems that the original asura gates could only be tuned to one location (at least without a lot of work), unlike GW2 asura gates (unlike what mechanics show), hence why Vekk had to destroy the gate rather than simply disabling or re-attuning it, and why there was a Central Transfer Chamber.

Obsidian.1328:

Oh I don’t know, I mean that whole snowy area in pre with the Wizard’s Tower is outside the “brown-out” zone, and that was considered Ascalon.

Uh… you may want to reexamine the change from pre-Searing and post-Searing, because Wizard’s Folly, in its entirety, was struck by the Searing. The Searing effectively melted some of the eastern Shiverpeak Mountains.

Obsidian.1328:

~note: I’m considering Ebonhawke outside the realm of my argument since it is GW2 material.

You cannot just simply ignore pieces of evidence, for or against, just because you want to ignore it.

Beetle.2476:

Ryuujin.8236:

Correct me if I’m wrong; but according to the lore now that both swords have been obtained, Queen Jenna (Provided Rytlock let’s her borrow his sword… I don’t see that he wouldn’t) is now in a position to undo Adelbern’s curse and free the souls of the Ascalonians and stop the daily slaughter of innocent Charr.

…the fact that she hasn’t seems like a pretty hostile action.

You know… if a nation claiming to be your ally had something set up that killed you citizens on a daily basis, and had the power to shut down that something, but refused to – you’d probably stop considering them your allies in relatively short order

It needs to be someone descended from Adelbern, not just someone of royalty.

Rytlock easily would keep his own weapon, given how he acts about it in Edge of Destiny. He’s rather greedy when it comes to his super-powerful magical sword.

I don’t see why people presume Jennah must be the one to undo the curse – or even if Jennah could undo the curse. The legend – and need I emphasize the word legend? – is about the “rightful king of Ascalon” returning to the throne. Nothing about bloodlines, nor queens. And for all we know, it has to be convincing Adelbern to give up and that Ascalon will continue in human hands. Or the legend could be just that – a legend that doesn’t work.

And of course, there’s also the fact that Magdaer’s in Eir’s possession… kind of. Rather, it’s in the possession of either Eir or the unnamed blacksmith she said would fix it. And a broken sword isn’t really going to help Jennah much – or Logan, who was the target of the gift.

Obsidian.1328:

I see, so Jeff is saying that Ascalon ends right at the southern-most explorable part of the pre-searing map. If today’s Ebonhawke was placed in that map you could literally throw a rock at the gates from a hill there. And yet, when reading the history books found in Ebonhawke, they somehow traveled for days out of Ascalon to reach that old mining camp.

Must have been all the tar slowing them down.

There’s quite a lot more distance to Ebonhawke – which has expanded over the 240 years, mind you – than a mere “stone’s throw away” (there’s the whole of Fields of Ruin tacked on, if not more). And the several days walk – with civilians, including elderly and children I believe, which likely needed constant breaks – was from Ascalon City to Ebonhawke anyways. It was likely a slow march.

I don’t recall any Quaggans in the Droknar ruins…

The Gargoyle dog model is a Branded Rock Dog recolored. They just changed the purple to orange/red.

I don’t think there’s any similarity with the Tyrian gargolyes – creatures of stone that liked to climb things – and the Nightmares – which are, as best as I can figure out, evil spirits of sorts. Now, whether or not there’s a connection between the Halloween gargoyles and either of the above is another matter. It could be that they’re the creatures of stone and simply got a major redesign, no different than the kraken (aka Jade Maw in GW2) did. Or it could be that Nightmares are no longer solely black and makes a “whish” sound when struck with physical weapons.

I’m doubting that last bit, personally.

Norn look down on it as dishonorable – for those mentioning Jora and Svanir, you don’t seem to recall Blood Washes Blood, where Jora had lost her honor to her people for killing her brother, and had to regain it by clearing her family’s homestead of invading charr.

That was the view of it before knowing of dragon corruption, even though they knew something happened to him to make him a rampaging murderer.

(Edit: regarding Dustfinger’s quote – killing family would definitely be going against norn virtues, as family and the pack are things highlighted by Owl and Wolf.)

Charr don’t view family all that important, so they would probably see it little different than killing another – it would all depend on the situation. Are they Flame? If so, “good job!” Are they any other kind of criminal? If so, “who cares.” Did you kill him/her because they backtalked you or in a duel challenge? Probably the same. It’s only frowned upon if its cold blood. Most such cases, that’s considered “legal” and not dealing with a criminal or Flame Legion would likely take the bout to the Bane, which is said to host one-on-one duels over arguments. Now, if the one you kill is a warband member… then I iirc, you’d be branded as a coward and traitor, unless you’re killing a traitor and have proof.

Humans probably view it the same as killing anyone else. Asura I’m not really sure of.

Sylvari… well, they’re tough to figure out. I mean, they jail someone for thievery, and exile for killing based on dialogue from The Grove. And “kinslayer” is hard to pin on them since they’re all of the same “family” but they only consider themselves distantly related except in unique cases – usually due to shared DoD experience or the like.

jheryn.8390:

Droknar’s Forge for heaven’s sake! It was one of the major cities. Climate change or not, now it is a little camp with no evidence of it’s large, Euro-influenced, STONE structures? I just don’t by it. Stone doesn’t deteriorate in 250 years. Same with the little places like Camp Rankor and Port Sledge.

Port Sledge was mostly wood, actually, so it’s reasonable to have gone away. And Camp Rankor is still there, with a full event chain to the ruins – probably the largest above-ground/water dwarven ruins in the game, actually. But for Droknar’s Forge, it’s now all underwater. Pretty well done, actually, as I was able to recognize the landscape. It’s all – or mostly – there.

How it went from being on a cliff to being underwater is beyond me though. And why it got renamed to “Droknah” is also weird. Apparently dwarves went with slang before disappearing.

draxynnic.3719:

Hrrrmn. compares Yeah, the old location of Rata Sum is about where Soren Draa is now, using the location of the old G.O.L.E.M.-works as a landmark. That said, the asura probably would regard it as an expansion of the same city – Soren Draa is basically the outskirts of modern Rata Sum (much like Shaemoor for Divinity’s, Applenook for LA, Smokestead for the Black Citadel, and Astorea for the Grove), and from the asura perspective, they’d likely regard “old” Rata Sum as being where they lived until they finished building the real Rata Sum.

There’s idle dialogue in one of the Hinterlabs about Soren Draa, actually.

It is the only place outside Rata Sum “proper” (for lack of a better word) which is under the Arcane Council’s jurisdiction. I wouldn’t say Shaemoor is part of DR, or Applenook is part of LA or the like, but Soren Draa is, in lore, part of Rata Sum. And it does seem to be where Rata Sum was in GW1.

@I See No Tomorrow: GW2’s story paths is actually a different case than the quests taking players into Eye of the North.

In the quests, you have one individual being placed on three different continents at the same time.

In the GW2 story paths, you have multiple individuals in the same story but only one individual is seen.

(And extensions of said scenarios in the same concept)

As Narcemus and drax said, it’s an iffy situation, though it is my opinion that it leans greatly towards the “just mechanics” side. Which is precisely what I was meaning. They may be there, but they are highly unlikely to be there in the scenario we saw them as, and they’re similarly likely to be there for mechanical purposes only.

It’s got nothing to do with re-used locations. It’s got to do with the fact that Vekk, Ogden, 2 other named dwarves who’s names I cannot recall, are all in these three separate line of events that happened at one single time. Three teams cannot go through the same asura gate and then blow up said asura gate immediately after to prevent destroyers from appearing. Furthermore, there’s no mention of destroyers in Cantha or Elona – and we go back to Cantha post-Eye of the North. The only real evidence to support the earthquakes and asura gates being in all three continents (and, btw, that’s one heck of a far reaching destroyer threat especially given how “far” the Elder Dragons’ influences spread in GW1) is the presence of Canthan and Elonian henchmen. However, Zho was in Eye of the North due to her travels (given the Black Moa scavenger hunt and her dialogue about being a guide), and only Herta makes mention of “volunteering” outside of her land.

Pavees.7281:

Not if the intended purpose of the item was to wrap up a loose end from gw1. It’s obvious we aren’t gonna be that heavily involved regarding the gods and their realms as we were in gw1. The main focus this time around are the dragons and “possibly” going to cantha and elona eventually. I severely doubt menzies will be a threat in gw2 considering how full the plate is already.

A single item with no background beyond a name is far from “wrapping up loose ends.” A dialogue or book would be better befitting than that.

While the main plot of GW2 vanilla is about uniting to face the Elder Dragons, it won’t be the main purpose for the entire game’s lifespan, that’s for sure. The Living Story is making sure of this, and there’s a lot of unsolved “side” plots that can prove to be major in the future.

Plus, there’s as Narcemus says – ArenaNet hates closing doors on things unless they feel they have to, like they did with Abaddon, in which things are final. Hell, they made sure to re-open the doors on the mursaat in GW1 and on the Flame Legion/dredge in GW2 despite the near genocide in the first and the complete removal and invoking civil war in the latter two. I just cannot see ArenaNet deciding “we’re going to remove a potential mainplot villain because he’s related to the gods and we’re going to show this by a single item’s name.”

I mean, hell, they didn’t even close Dhuum’s story door. And besides, the Six Gods aren’t a needed aspect for Menzies to invade Tyria – you just need to give the villain a reason to act, not make the villain’s arch-nemesis appear.

I think Jory was said to be a guy at one point, but Majory sounds like a gal’s name to me. May be wrong there though.

An interesting postulation, but I’m doubting it personally. Wouldn’t surprise me if its so though, as it’d be a way to tie the Southsun arc to Dragon Bash more directly other than Kiel’s involvement – by Kasmeer’s involvement.

It was both – the Consortium didn’t cater to them, and the grawl didn’t want the Consortium catering to them.