Guild Wars 2

Personally, I’m hoping all of those events remain (“MA remnants don’t realize they’ve lost yet”), as well as the instances (including recap NPCs). I’d love for the dungeon to remain too, but we’re told it’ll go away on the 12th. :/ Would make sense for the traveling refugees to be removed, probably the scavenger hunt too (or at least move the scavenger hunt NPCs), but the Sonic Periscopes, events, and refugee corpses could easily stay.

I’m sure the environment changes will remain – tbh, the two new instances will probably remain but altered (“after rebuilding” versions most likely).

lordkrall.7241:

It makes quite a lot of sense that the dungeon is time-limited as well especially since the dungeon is tied into the whole invasion thing. The fact that they selected the 12th is most likely because they next part of the Living World is starting then (we already know that the victory celebrations will take place starting then and we have hints that our personal nemesis will turn up at that time as well).

Lorewise, by the time that the Molten Alliance starts their invasion, Zhaitan is dead and Orr is cleansed.

Welp, I think that Arah should be closed off now, FOREVER, because, y’know, Zhaitan’s dead! Huzzah!

As for the whole “it’s been posted!” – Let me say this. On May 8th, I’ll be going out of town for 21 days. No ifs ands or buts about it because real life happens – and while out of town, I’ll get no Guild Wars 2 access since my laptop isn’t powerful enough to run it. Now, this means I cannot enjoy the dungeon from the 8th on until its closed – I got lucky, as I’ve already done the dungeon so I got a chance to explore it. However, what if I had to go out of town from April 28th to May 13th? Even if it was announced beforehand, I wouldn’t have a chance of changing when I go out of town, and as such I wouldn’t have a chance to play the dungeon.

Announcing it borehand only helps those who can actually control their schedule fully. Jobs, school, family, and more all influence people’s lives externally, and often we get little choice other than saying “no” and dealing with the consequences – maybe you’ll get fired from your job; maybe you’ll be hated by your family (worse case scenario, disowned). But often, folks don’t have this choice, or don’t see a simple game worth ruining their real life – nor should they. However, this means that they cannot enjoy the content that ArenaNet put effort into.

It’s no different than ANet punishing players for having a life other than playing their game. It’s little else, in fact. And that’ll only hurt them in the long run – or even the short run, as this very thread shows.

Besides, as proven by the content that was given in release still all being present, the new additions can be kept with reason.

Vulpis.8063:

Then again, why should they care what the players think? They already have our money, after all, and despite not getting any more of ours, there’s presumably still enough suckers out there who haven’t learned better yet.

They don’t have the money they’d get from gemstore purchases. Nor do they have the money they’d get once expansions come out.

I’m sure they’d change their mind if their profits from the gemstore reduces greatly, or if fewer than expected expansions sell when it comes out. But I doubt such will happen, TBH. Too many players out there willing to cash out for stupid RNG stuff.

This, imo, is the worst part of the content update. Those weapons are awesome. Far better than the gloves or anything else (except maybe the infinite usage picks).

I’m really really sad that we can only get the weapons via the BLC. Same with the Halloween shoulderpads and the Lost Shores stuff. This constant RNG stuff via the BLC is just… demotivating to me. The dyes in this is just as bad.

I really hope they stop – or at least lessen – with it. I’d much rather get gear SAB style or hell, even like how one had to get The Crossing/The Mad Moon/Arachniphobia from Halloween. Far better than (limited time?) RNG stuff.

Geotherma.2395:

But once it is over and the next story begins, where would you like to go from there? What areas do you think would be the best to explore that are currently closed, that could facilitate an amazing experience within the living story?

-snip-

Otherwise, I’m hoping a new living story could at least lead us to places adventurers rarely visit, and I believe Arenanet has the tools to see what places in the game are under experienced.

IMO, the next focus we’ll have will be the Sinister Triad – the Nightmare Court, Inquest, and Bandit/White Mantle alliance. Thus the primary focus will be in the player-desolate Brisban Wildland. Probably Metrica, Caledon, and Kessex too, but less so like how we got a little content in Snowden Drifts, Iron Marches, and Plains of Ashford.

My reason for this lies mainly in the letters given to players from the Destiny’s Edge members at the beginning of phase 2 – specifically the ones from Caithe, Logan, and Zojja.

Plus, given how subverting the White Mantle have become, being the hidden leaders behind the Bandits and influencing the Ministry, while allying with the centaurs, Inquest, and Nightmare Court. Plus, Fort Vandal smells of “future dungeon” and there’s also always that portal going north in Brisban for a potential new zone like how we got Southsun Cove. When you take all this – a foe that holds ties to four racial enemies (though not focused upon, the centaurs are also enemies of the norn, they’re just focusing on humans first it seems), and three of Destiny’s Edge members seem to have their hands tied with racial concerns… Kind of smells like “we’re going to bring this up soon!” stuff.

I’m kind of hoping that personal nemesis will be White Mantle, personally. Maybe it’s even Lazarus (yeah, there was that “herself” comment made by a dev, but that’s not definitive and we’re never really told Lazarus was male, were we? All we know about mursaat genders is that it was left up in the air as of GW1 – to us, that is).

However, thinking design wise, the May content update, living story wise, will probably focus on the refugees settling in. A little “post-F&F, pre-next story” kind of thing. An intermission, if you will.

Geotherma.2395:

Those who do the story can find themselves in the new content area, and those who do not do the story will be given a way to get there at a certain changing point in the story.

So, basically, you’d like to create alternative maps of certain zones, to show a “further in the future” idea? Not bad, however, it’d be the same as creating copies of the three Orr zones with the new ones showing the “restored” Orr – which, imo, is a bad idea as it’d separate the playerbase or, should the rewards of one version be far better than the other, it’d leave one version desolate except for mapping, which thus would result in no real progress to improving the zones which is, imo, what the living story should focus on first and foremost after telling a continuous story.

Yes, it’d create a desire to do the content, but it’d also leave one of the two zones empty/emptier compared to the other “copy” which would only divide the playerbase more, and it seems that the living story’s purpose is to create new content without dividing the playerbase more (the job of new content in new zones belongs to future expansions).

If I misunderstood what you meant, apologies. The only alternative explanation I can see would be akin to the additions of Cragstead and North Nolan Hatchery.

ZilentNight.5089:

If the living story is now over, can we call it a dead story?
Or will this be going forward be known as “Temporary Story”

The Living Story isn’t over.

However, this arc/chapter/act is nearing its end. Flame and Frost is closing by the end of this month, and next month we’ll likely get a new chapter rolling unless Anet decides to do a month of Dragon Festival (doubt it).

The Living Story isn’t a single plot, but one overarching plot with several small plots within, and is something that’ll continue as long as GW2 exists – or as long as Anet doesn’t want to stop.

Keep in mind a few things. Firstly, Braham was 11 or 12 when she met Snaff and Zojja in 1319 AE (6 years prior to now, 1325, depending on what time of the year they met and when Braham was born, he’d be 11 or 12). Eir hasn’t seen him since he was a baby, more or less, so even at that point she probably didn’t even know Braham was alive still, might not have even known about Borje’s death given the short story.

Secondly, know that Eir is a person who suffers from self-esteem issues. This has been established from the very getgo of knowing who Eir was. If you read Edge of Destiny and/or did the dungeon story modes, or even played as a norn, you’d know this easily. It took the meeting of Snaff and Zojja for Eir to get out of her homestead and into doing what she truly wanted to do ever since her father was killed: fight the Elder Dragons and their minions (specifically though, kill the Dragonspawn). Almost every major action she takes – forming Destiny’s Edge, going after Jormag (blocked by failing to crack Jormag’s tooth), rejoining Destiny’s Edge… all of it – she needs to get pushed into starting. The reason why she’s a legend isn’t because she goes out of her way to do things – it’s because when she gets pushed in the right direction, she does kitten incredible things.

Her not telling Destiny’s Edge or Knut Whitebear about her son fits PERFECTLY into her personality that was built from the very beginning.

But also keep in mind that she is not a human, she is norn. Norn do not have the full sense of family that humans do. Knut’s wife, for example, doesn’t live with the rest of the family despite them all still being “together” – she’s always out hunting and adventuring. This is commonplace for norn, to not remain together. So Eir is in no way a “bad parent” in the least – she’s just a “norn parent.” Probably every three norn out of five do the same thing Eir did.

If you ask me – if they did what the Aura wanted, with some touching family moment, THAT would have ruined Eir. It would have turned her from being a norn to just being a tall and too-busty human.

Well, do keep in mind that the dwarves’ problems in GW1 were only part of that very generation. The Stone Summit and the civil war was very new (in dwarven history). And of all the elder races, it seems like the dwarves were the youngest and weakest (with forgotten as a possible candidate for “youngest on Tyria (world)”). In dwarven history, the Shiverpeaks was in peace for hundreds of years between the fall of the jotun and the rise of the Stone Summit.

skullmount.1758:

I like the quote by Braham at the end/during of the weapons test cutscene. Shouldn’t it have been, “I knew that guy”?

Well, when he says it, the guy’s still alive. He dies 1 second after the line – unless you’re lagging, I guess.

I also loved Braham’s “Oh, we are so dead.” line – it was just so fitting.

Vayne.8563:

You quote lore from the wiki, but who wrote that lore. That lore isn’t fact. It’s lore.

Though written by the fan-base, it’s still lore and fact. He should have quoted the source though, but the interview stating that seems to have been lost in wiki re-editing.

Vayne.8563:

In fact, there’s no reason that a tree that shares a dream with it’s children can’t communicate with them telepathically.

Derpaderp.

Communication with NON-SYLVARI. As Dream and Nightmare shows, the Pale Tree can and does talk directly to its children as a disembodied voice, but she cannot to non-sylvari. Because it doesn’t have a mouth.

Beetle.2476:

The golem in lions arch at the priory site says that the USED-TO-WORSHIP-TITANS, NOW-DESTROYERS.

It actually says “Worshippers-of-the-Hrangmer-titans-and-later-the-destroyers, minions-of-Primordus.”

They no longer worship Destroyers – hell, they didn’t even for a full year.

But anyways – I found that interesting too, and since the 2009 trailer showing the early form of Gaheron and his “god form,” I’ve been wondering if, rather than worshipping, the Flame Legion are siphoning Primordus’ power. In a similar way that Duncan wanted to harness the Great Destroyer’s power even after its death, I’ve always been thinking that the Flame Legion were after the Destroyers’ power. Their self-mutilating rituals that turn their bodies (starting with their hands and eyes, then their abdomens and horns) makes me think of a tie to Primordus and how the Elder Dragons corrupt living beings – the changes seem to start from the inside out, based on Icebrood and Branded (well, Icebrood’s harder to tell and may be from the outside in).

Another thing to note is that Icebrood corruption also seems to begin at the same points of the body: at the hands, head, and chest – though rather than turning horns into ice, horns are made (an interesting observation, imo, and I’m curious how charr turned to Icebrood would react at that point).

Third thing to note about the Flame Legion’s “Gaheron ritual” as they seem to call it would be the Dredge’s reactions to undergoing it – they seem to become a lot more hostile in personality, with favoritism of, to quote the Protector (I believe) aggro line: “Burn! Burn! Buuuuurrrn!” Of all charr, I’d say the shamans who undergo the ritual are the most aggressive, and then you got the dredge undergoing the ritual being equally aggressive and fire-manic.

Erukk.1408:

Personal story is about the Elder Dragons. The Living Story is going to center around other threats, like our upcoming nemesis. If all the world’s problems somehow boiled down to “The Elder Dragon did it!”, the GW2 storyline would be d.o.a.

However, the Flame Legion siphoning or working for an Elder Dragon doesn’t equate to “the Elder Dragon did it!” – if it was, then it’d be no different than saying the Sons of Svanir and Inquest can never, ever, ever become part of the Living Story.

The thing is, the Living Story is just the progression of the world’s story. Which deals with everything.

“Bandit” is a very simplistic and general term. It’s no different than saying “Soldier” truth be told.

Gnar.8463:

There are two Flame Legion Prisoners. A shaman and a ritualist.
Both have different dialogues.

The one who’s asleep didn’t give me any dialogue. There’s a Flame Prisoner, and a Dredge Shaman prisoner.

I did some testing, and the Flame prisoner has different dialogue for charr than all the other races. Using Kai’s format from up above:

VFLP: Those dredge better be ready for Gaheron’s fires. They’re gonna burn for this. Bumbling pinheads!"
<Player>: It’s not turning out like you wanted?
VFLP: You might say we overestimated the dredge ability to pull their heads out of their holes. All they want is to dig deeper, when the territory worth grabbing is on the surface.
<Player>: What made you do it?
VFLP: It sounded like a good idea at the time. Mine the dredge for all their secrets, use them to take territory, then put them in their places.
<Player>: I see. (end)

ZudetGambeous.9573:

To make a nemesis that everyone in the game hates just do the following:

Step 1: create a cut scene with said nemesis.
Step 2: In said cut scene have said nemesis kill 1 baby quaggan
Step 3: After killing said baby quaggan, have the nemesis exclaim: “I Balance the classes in GW2”

Step 4: Watch as the player base attempts to disembowel the nemesis and make continuous death threats against her.

Killing baby quaggans and balancing professions in GW2?

Sounds like my kind of guy. Can I go evil please?

Well that’s where you need to go, not the North Nolan Hatchery.

Kai Darkness.5801:

This may not be relevant to the personal nemesis, but included anyway. Veteran Flame Legion Prisoner = VFLP.
[spoiler-box]VFLP: What? You got a problem with me?
<Player>: Just curious. What did you hope to accomplish?
VFLP: You could never understand because you and your people are destined to die in our fires. Your time is coming. You should prepare yourselves.
<Player>: What are you talking about?
VFLP: Nothing. Never mind. Go fight your dragons. If they don’t, they’ll annihilate you.
<Player>: They’ll annihilate you too.
VFLP: I doubt it. We’ll be here long after the dragons have swallowed you and yours.
<Player>: In your dreams. (End)
[/spoiler-box]

Waaaaiiiit a second

I got a COMPLETELY different dialogue with him on my character – charr necro Whispers, Gladium father and Ash legion. He explained why they made the deal with the dredge – I don’t recall the exact wording, but it started with him saying that they overestimated the dredge’s abilities to “pop out of their holes” and that they’re only interested in digging deeper when the territory worth taking is the surface. Then he goes on to say that the alliance seemed like a “good idea at the time” stating that they intended to ally with the dredge to take more territory, then subject the dredge into slaves.

Gandarel.5091:

Hier to the throne – > a person who has the right to rule over Ascalon. Since noone ever been a king of Orr, Kryta or Ascalon without being from the Doric line (not even Adelbern was considered as a hier just because he was not the next in line, not even after the rightful hier resigned, and that is a very very strict view).

The hier must be from the Doric line, not a random bloke with Adelbern’s mentality.

True, an heir to the throne does make someone as a rightful king of Ascalon (at least, in the monarchistic view). However, one does not need to be an heir to the throne.

Furthermore, not all of King Doric’s descendants are necessarily related to the Ascalonian royal line, ergo, doesn’t automatically mean that they’re worthy of being an Ascalonian king by right of ancestry (King Doric was a king of Orr, even though crowned in Ascalon).

Also, we have been given no indication that the second Krytan royal family originated from Doric – especially since Kryta seems to have been ‘remade’ as an Elonian colony, and Mad King Thorn is never once said to be related to Doric (Salma is, but not Thorn) – same can be said for Mazdak, the first king of Kryta ever. So while King Doric is said to have ruled over all human nations, not all human nation bloodlines descend from him necessarily – eventually they did, most likely via interkingdom marriages, but it’s not like every single King/Queen of Ascalon, Orr, and Kryta all had Dorics blood in them.

captaincrash.6528:

Jeff Grubb once said in a Q&A (I believe during PAX) that their 5 major races have around the same population as each other.

Actually, what he said – and it was linked to and quoted in this very thread, in fact – was that the asura and norn populations have risen, while humans declined, and charr remained about the same, with sylvari steadily increasing. And he also said that the major cities “indicate large populations of the major races.”

He gave no actual comparison of numbers – just population rates.

Unless you refer to a different interview asking the same question.

Yes, ThatOddOne, there are some differences between norn and dwarf. Though the main – only, actually – highlighted difference in EotN was that norn “fight alone” while dwarves (usually, except for their greatest of heroes) do not. That is literally what Ogden had so much trouble figuring out about norn – why they prefer fighting alone (and if not alone, in very small groups).

However, despite that highlighted difference, they are still – in both inspiration and in-lore culture – more similar to each other than to other races. Are they very similar? No. And no one said such a thing. But do they hold similarities? Yes, and that’s what was said. Of the playable races, norn (and seconded by charr) hold the most similarities.

And Kodan are much much *dis*similar to the norn than dwarves – and are, in fact, closer but still far from the dwarves than to the norn (while they reigned, the dwarven kingdom was peaceful and had a bit of a golden age according to the Priory – that is, until the Stone Summit came about – and as narcemus partially said, the only real similarity between kodan and norn are their bear form and them both being driven from their homes by Jormag).

I don’t think anyone here ever stated that dwarves are short norn. Rather, there were simply a couple folks stating that dwarves and norn hold similarities in culture (this mostly being due to holding similar origins in norse mythology and culture).

As for why Anet didn’t go “they all dead” – ArenaNet (or at least some of the story writers) hates closing doors permanently (this being a reason why they went through the trouble of re-opening doors for mursaat stories, but didn’t do anything with them in GW2 aside from history – Jeff Grubb has stated that he regrets having killed Abaddon, because it closed story potentials, but saw it as necessary in the story, for example), but this is talking about story ideas. They probably thought “we may come up with an interesting plot for dwarves in the future” and so kept them alive, but changed and barely influential, in lore.

The reason why no one’s ever direct linked the quote is because it’s from a youtube video from 2009 that got taken down, iirc.

Edit: Decided to check my old doc of interviews I kept when they were common and not found. Found this among them:

[B]Onlinewelten:[/B] Many fans have longed for dwarves. Why didn’t they make it as a playable race?

[B]Eric Flannum:[/B] One of the things that we try to do with our story and lore is to build a sort of roadmap for where the world and all the races that inhabit it have been and where they are going in the future. The dwarves have played an important part in past events (more than players are even aware of at this time) and will have a role in the future as well. Because of the destiny we chose for the dwarven race, they didn’t make a particularly compelling playable race for Guild Wars 2. But who knows what the future holds for them?

http://www.onlinewelten.com/games/articles/interviews/4633-guild-wars-2-arenanet-im-interview-teil-1/4/

I’m pretty sure there was another one, similar to this but more about their use in other fantasy genre media, but as said – Anet didn’t want to make them a playable race and while things may change – hence why they didn’t outright say “they be dead” – as things are now they won’t.

Gandarel.5091:

@Konig, Doric was the ruler of a united tyria. To make the spirits rest needs a descendant of Doric, not necessary to be the Ascalonian line.

@Frosch, Adelbern was never a commoner, everyone knew he is a descendant of King Doric, it’s just that he wouldn’t be the next in the line.

Firstly, from The Movement of the World:

Some believe that one day, when the rightful king of Ascalon returns with one of the two flaming swords—either Adelbern’s Magdaer or his son’s, named Sohothin—the legion will abandon the city and sink at last into peaceful death.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Ascalon

Nothing’s ever said about Doric’s line. Just a rightful heir to Ascalon. This means the bloke that has the sword doesn’t even need to be of royal descent. Just recognized by Adelbern (I presume, since the ghosts seem to hold Adelbern’s mentality) as worthy of leading Ascalon. On the other hand, it could mean that whoever has the sword has to be of royal Ascalonian descent – thus being Queen Jennah wouldn’t matter (moreso due to Adelbern’s hatred of Krytans).

Secondly, Adelbern was indeed a commoner, even though he was a descendant of King Doric. Similar to Shiro, who was a commoner but descended from Kaineng Tah and able to prove it.

These Royalist fools oppose King Adelbern because he was not born into nobility.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Opposition_to_the_King

If he wasn’t born into nobility, there’s only commoner for him to be born into. Or lower, but I doubt he was lower than commoner.

Gandarel.5091:

You and Konig probably mistook what we are sayig. We aren’t saying that Palawa will take over the world.

When I say Tyria, I mean the continent. And while you may not have said it – you haven’t said much in this – it was said by Narcemus:

Narcemus.1348:

I’m sorry, but I honestly can’t see a group like the Pact just sitting by and watching Palawa Joko take over swaths of land just because “Well he wasn’t helping an Elder Dragon so it’s not our problem” I honestly don’t understand why you think they would be so naive.

I never once really gave a kitten about whether or not Joko was oppressing Elona. That wasn’t ever the point I was trying to make. My point was that he isn’t some bloke who’s going to go on a conquest spree just because, nor is he someone who’s going to go around kicking puppies for kittens and giggles. He’s not nice, but he’s not pitch black and he’s not an idiot. Unlike what Narcemus said, he’s not going to go invading Tyria just because Zhaitan (and later, Kralkatorrik) are dead; and unlike what Pavees said, he isn’t a pitch black figure in the story – yeah, he’s really dark gray, but Anet loves their shades of gray and irregardless of what others tell us about a guy they hate, we have talked to him in person (so to speak) and that’s far more reliable than what we’re told about him by some dude who hates Joko. For example, the Whispers in GW1 kept saying that Joko would betray the character practically right away… yet he didn’t.

Is Joko oppressing Elona? Yes. But is he being as bad as all the NPCs and whatnot say about him? No, not really. Is he being this pitch black evil overlord bent on world conquest like Narcemus and Pavees individually say in part? No, not even close.

That’s all I’ve been trying to say.

Gandarel.5091:

Also, Palawa wants the Cryastal Desert and maybe Orr too

Please provide a source, because as far as we’ve seen, beyond what he’s taken control of – which was no-man’s-land in the first place – he’s not expanded in nearly 200 years, only defended when attacked. He certainly never showed interest in Orr, nor implication of such an interest. (Technically, though, The Desolation is part of the Crystal Desert, so he’s always had domain in the CD).

Gandarel.5091:

We will have to fight Palawa and that’s for sure. Maybe not because of these reasons and events, but we will.

Not necessarily so. He could be – once more – viewed as the better of two evils. Maybe the Movement’s statements are grossly exaggerated. Maybe so too were all the other “facts” said by people who hate Joko. GW2 is known for subjective truths, and making subjective truths out of GW1 info, so you cannot take everything at face value – unlike what Pavees is doing.

Gandarel.5091:

You guys base your ideas about the GW1 Joko.

And while we base our ideas off of first-hand interaction with Joko, you’re basing it off of second-hand reports of those who don’t like Joko (the Movement of the World and some choice statements about Joko’s past in GW1).

Which sounds more skewed to you?

Ludovicus.7980:

I wonder how far Zhaitan’s influence went. We don’t know if Palawa Joko has been able to think by himself while Zhaitan has been alive. And with the fall of Zhaithan I wonder if he will be willing to help destroying something that threatens him as well: the elder dragons.

Joko was always fighting Zhaitan’s minions who were trying to invade Elona – Joko fighting a defensive war by all indications.

Mungrul.9358:

Neither are really a major antagonist though, are they? Not in the same way as those from other races.

Uhhhh…

Bandits are:

1. Part of every lvl 1-10 and lvl 10-20 storyline. No exception.
2. Backed by the White Mantle – who are long-lived enemies of Krytan humans.
3. In an alliance with Inquest, Centaurs, and Nightmare Court.
4. Are in 3 Krytan zones and 1 Maguuman zone.
5. Have an entire dungeon focused on them (Caudecus’ Mansion).

They’re definably fit as a racial enemy. They’re focused on differently. To be perfectly honest, if you ask me, I’d say the bandits – or rather, White Mantle – are the most threatening of all racial antagonists. Simply because of all the connections they’ve made. And they could even have Lazarus the Dire backing them still (which is, imo, how the Inquest got to know so kitten much about the Elder Dragons in Crucible of Eternity and the mursaat magic in Arah).

Mungrul.9358:

Ah, thank you athuria, I didn’t realise that bit in your spoiler text. That narrative is nowhere near as obvious as the ones for other races.

The White Mantle bit is only revealed to players in the Unknown Parents storyline. If you don’t play that, or read about it, you’d never know the White Mantle are even still around. The best you get to that otherwise is the Seraph mentioning investigating White Mantle possible survivings in Brisban Wildlands.

Kain Francois.4328:

The Bandits are actually the White Mantle

Not fully. The grunts of the bandits are misled civilians made to believe that Jennah’s a no-good tyrant and that anarchy is the way things should be – without realizing, apparently, that their leaders aren’t looking for “freedom” that anarchy would be, but to rule themselves.

Holding Sohothin doesn’t give Rytlock any form of social status – among his people or others’ (except maybe as an enemy of “true” Ascalonians in the eyes of the anti-Jennah party). To be Khan-Ur, one must be a descendant of the Khan-Ur (it’s a heritage thing, like kingship) as well as prove one’s strength (this, Rytlock’s got down, presuming he could hold off challenges from the likes of Smodur and Bangar) and hold the Claw of the Khan-Ur. And most importantly: be recognized as Khan-Ur by other candidates (hence “hold off challenges”).

While Eir says she’s going to give Logan Magdaer, I don’t think it’ll remain in his hands, TBH. But that’s just my personal feeling that Wade Sammuelsson will be given it and, as Duke of Ebonhawke and only known descendant of the Ascalonian Kings (imo, Jennah doesn’t count because, although crowned in Ascalon, Doric doesn’t seem to have been an Ascalonian king, even though she’s a descendant of Doric), will have a plot focused around him removing ghosts. But this’ll likely be a living story plot in a long time from now… maybe.

Whoever said about leaving sides undefended? Not me – so please, both you and Pavees, stop putting words in my mouth. Having to restate the same things gets tiresome.

Gandarel.5091:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gandarel.5091:

Tyria won’t let Palawa rule over Elona.

Funny, because they kind of did for 90 years, until they simply didn’t have a say in the matter anymore thanks to Zhaitan.

Because Kryta alone couldn’t defeat Joko, but 5 races united got some chances.

And Arenanet simply didn’t want to write off an expansion

Humans were still allied with norn and asura, and you know how norn love challenges and asura love new fields to experiment with. But still, Kryta did NOTHING and that’s says a lot more than you seem to think.

As to the expansion – who’s to say we’ll be fighting Joko if we go to Elona?

Gandarel.5091:

Konig. Once in a while admit it you are wrong.

The problem is that this is subjective.

But nonetheless, I digress. And I shall remain on my stance of this:

The Pact won’t instigate Palawa Joko unless he proves to be an active threat more immediate than or on par to the Elder Dragons.

It seems everyone here agrees that Joko – regardless of his stance on the “evil” meter – is no idiot. And given that he’s no idiot, I think we can all agree that he won’t go about instigating the Pact’s forces. Thus the only real matter of debate which this entire string of off-topicness came from is whether or not the Pact would initiate first strike against Joko.

Gandarel.5091:

Tyria won’t let Palawa rule over Elona.

Funny, because they kind of did for 90 years, until they simply didn’t have a say in the matter anymore thanks to Zhaitan.

Pavees.7281:

common sense fantasy story wise is painting this guy black in a white and black good and evil way (this game rarely if any has any gray zones).

You should play more GW2. Anet loves the shades of gray. Though they’ve been losing that a tad bit with the racial enemies of GW2.

Pavees.7281:

Last note if you’re defending slavery then you aren’t one to have a respectable moral ground to stand on and preach.

I wasn’t defending slavery, but rather I was stating how many nations needed it to survive and how many not-evil people went with it. Slavery really isn’t a “good or evil” kind of topic, in my opinion, which was rather the point I was trying to make. There are good people who were pro-slavery in the past, and similarly there were evil people who weren’t. Or rather, people deemed “good” and “evil” by society. For example: Julius Ceasar, celebrated as a really great Roman guy, was pro-slavery. The topic of slavery as good or evil is really only determined by society’s stance – and it’s just today’s age which says “it’s bad.” Mind you, I’m not “pro-slavery” – I’m just not “slavery is evil” either (though I am anti-slavery myself).

Oh, and I never claimed to have a respectable moral ground. I prefer not to give myself a moral standing at all, actually.

Pavees.7281:

Ok I have to point out a logic fallacy. You say we’re wrong because of speculation of what he might do and then say with speculation his time being imprisoned changed him when there’s no evidence to support that.

sigh

Narcemus was stating that the Pact will go after Joko because Joko will want to conquer continental Tyria.

I was stating that Joko COULD have changed, but that even if he didn’t, he’s not as bad as he’s being made out to be and that he won’t necessarily go on a hellbent conquer-all-life-killing-spree like everyone else seems to think.

It’s not a logic fallacy at all.

Pavees.7281:

It’s one thing to conquer nations but even when people submitted willingly he slaughtered them for no reason but a whim.

There’s only one person we know who submitted and that he “slaughtered” – King Sahlahjar. the Dead However, in this case, we only know that the king “submitted willingly.”

Pavees.7281:

Also just because he’s keeping people alive doesn’t mean he’s doing it out of kindness.

Never said that was the case.

Pavees.7281:

Given he’s sort of sadistic he could just be keeping people alive so he has people to rule over because if everything is dead then he wouldn’t have a way to replenish his troops if they were to fall to zhaitan or krak.

How do you get that he’s sadistic, exactly? Other than exacting revenge, he doesn’t really do anything to claim anything all that sadistic.

Pavees.7281:

Remember joko is immortal he could be playing a long term game since years mean nothing to him(which 200 years not moving to an immortal is like moments by comparison so your whole “changing due to time” doesn’t have any ground to stand on given he curses the ossa blood line with crazy like zeal) Also working with the heroes allowed us to kill varresh for him and help him build up his forces so he could make his move(he’s not stupid remember he plays long term chess essentially).

Well, to an immortal who’s lived thousands of years already, sure. But Joko only seems to be about 250 years of age by GW1’s time, having been an “up and coming prince” when Thorn ruled. Besides, that actually works in my favor of what Joko would not attack the Pact. He’d know they’re not a force to be reckoned with, and would rather ally with them until they fall due to time. In this case, he would work with the Pact, promise not to invade, and help take care of the Elder Dragon threats which are just as much of a threat to him as Varesh and Abaddon was. As we both said, he’s not stupid.

Pavees.7281:

If you wanna make any sense think for a moment, why even make joko an obvious monster with enslaving souls, killing innocents, and causing mass famine and disease if not to give us reasons to go out there? Also what part of KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ALREADY SURRENDED WITHOUT A FIGHT suddenly makes him not as bad we’re making him out to be when there is rather clear evidence to the contrary?

Him conquering Elona is actually a reason for why we’re NOT in Elona in GW2’s beginning, rather than a reason for us to go there. And again: the famine was a means to quickly conquer Elona – and, if you think about it, it’s actually a less bloody means. And think about it: Joko’s known for raising the fallen of the enemy to fight for him so why would he bother with starving them out first? That gives him fewer troops.

And again: one innocent, not many, surrendered to him. We have 0 indication of what Sahlahjar’s people thought of the situation, let alone what they did. And certainly nothing says that Joko “killed them for giggles,”

(next post…)

Nah, it wasn’t those. Those ghosts know that they’re displaced spirits and outright ask you to bring them to their body and then wake them up. The ghost I’m trying to remember was like the human ghosts in Aurora Remains – where they don’t even know that they’re dead.

Pavees.7281:

-snip-

1. 200 years of imprisonment changes people, for better or for worst, as does having to work with good guys. I’m not saying he’s a great guy. But we don’t know the full situation for his “enslavement” (hell, given the centaur’s overall respect for earth and natural things, they’d hate undead right from the get go I’m sure, and wouldn’t simply see him as a leader – so it’s not that odd for Joko to go about enslaving or killing off groups that would fight him to the death be he good or not).
2. I’m taking my reference for what he is actually said to do when he conquers Elona and not what he did before or what he said he would do. Specifically, from The Movement of the World – all of the horrible things he did was when he was warring. Afterwards, so long as people didn’t rebel it sounds like he’s no worse than the guy next door. Of course, the wording’s skewed as it should be, given how in terms of lore, the information is from the refugees (same goes for Usoku).
3. Enslaving doesn’t make a monster, really. Or would you say that those who had indentured servants were monsters? Slavery is bad, yes, but enslaving is often a needed thing in earlier or young kingdoms – moreso when said kingdom is made through conquest. You’ll be an enemy, whether you’re a good guy or not (hell, I doubt morality comes into play there), and there will be people rebelling against you. You have three choices: kill them, enslave them, or exile them. The best of these would be enslavement – because if you exile them, they’ll just do what Rurik planned to do (build up forces elsewhere and “take back” their land).
4. I was only making a comment about how Narcemus’ explanation for Joko’s persona is worse than it actually is. He wasn’t going about enslavement – the worst of Joko’s crimes and hardly all that evil in of itself – but Joko being a powerhungry bloke who was always interested in conquering as much land as he could, and not what we know or having indication of: that being he’s just interested in Elona.

To clarify: YES JOKO IS A BAD GUY – since you all don’t seem to think I’m saying that, I’ll bold and cap it for you. However, I don’t think he’s as bad as you claim. The worst of his actions are done for the initial act of conquering. Including – or rather, especially – his historical actions prior to Nightfall. And when he’s not conquering, what’s he doing? Fighting Elder Dragon minions and helping in destroying fallen gods (albeit, the latter was mainly due to a “you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours” deal – that he actually kept. So much for being a backstabber, eh?).

His betrayals, his enslavements, his causing famines. These were all steps for his goal of conquering Elona and only Elona. After he conquered Elona, his rule softened as per the Movement of the World. He manages water rationing in a desert land no different than the previous leaders of Kourna did at the Mahnkelon Waterworks. Like any ruler would, he ensured as few rebellions as possible when he conquered hostile land, and in the “kinder” way to some folks’ perspective (enslavement over death). He removed the greatest threat (Sunspears) but did not indiscriminately kill them – he gave them all a chance to work for him or to not, and those who did not he didn’t even say he killed but it just says that they were “scattered to the winds”. The only group he was unjustly cruel against is the Ossa’s clan – though with being defeated and imprisoned by Turai, then having his throne taken from him by Varesh, it’s not all that unreasonable and hating the children of a man is common not just for individuals but governments and societies too. Even in modern societies, folks associated by blood with murderers are often shunned to the point of them changing their names.

In short: If you call Joko a monster, you’re calling most – if not every war-related – ancient ruler a monster. If you call him a monster for slavery, then you’re calling just about every ruler and nobleman up to the American Civil War’s time a monster. And many of those people weren’t.

Though it should still be one-handed for a charr, since it’s the claw and not claws. Or so I would think, at least.

@achensherd: I don’t think there’ll be a new Marshal per Elder Dragon. Rather, I think there will be specially chosen High Commander (name chosen at random) that’d be a rank over Commander (seeing how there’s currently 4 Pact Commander NPCs in GW2, and then the PC(s) being second-in-command). Sigfast or Skarti, who lead the Wolfborn, will be leading the fight against Jormag; one of the Sentinel leaders (there’s a Tribune in Steeleye Span – good of a choice as any) to take on Kralkatorrik, and probably Ogden to take on Primordus.

@Gandarel: Not necessarily. The Forgotten are said to have been in the Blazeridge Mountains, but never specifically Ascalon. Though it’s said they were all over the world, but we know this isn’t 100% true as the humans in Cantha didn’t contest with the Forgotten in Cantha, so they weren’t everywhere.

Though… (going to respond to Narcemus which is also about Forgotten!)

@Narcemus: Interesting thing to note about the Catacombs in pre-Searing is that there’s archetecture found within The Rift (the pre-HoH HA maps) and The Underworld. So those could be forgotten origin. I once did a huge observational research on the Depths of Tyria’s various structure designs, as well as The Catacombs, Sorrow’s Furnace, and Altrumm Ruins. I ended up suspecting that the Catacombs was a mix of ancient dwarven and forgotten, while most eastern Depths of Tyria structures are dwarven in origin, and eastern Depths are mostly ancient asuran, with the Far Shiverpeaks’ being a mix of dwarven and seers with Altrumm being such as well (the Far Shiverpeaks’ dungeons utilize 3 architecture designs – 1 being unique to them, one being akin to SF and Charr Homeland dungeons, and the third being akin to Altrumm Ruins).

Charr ghosts in The Flight North (GW1 BMP), and I remember one case of a charr ghost in GW2, somewhere in Ascalon though I can’t remember where, that doesn’t realize he’s a ghost (much like many human ghosts). Dwarven ghosts throughout the Depths of Tyria. Jotun ghosts in various places (Arah, certain citadels – not counting Elder Thruln). Asura ghosts in some of their labs (albeit one case, Oola, probably counts as a “special case”).

You’re making the grossly speculative presumption that Joko will be taking over swaths of land owned by someone else – thus becoming a threat to others.

He may go after the Crystal Desert – which would put him at odds with Kralkatorrik if he’s not already at odds against them. But that’d make him an ally to the Pact. He’s been fighting Zhaitan’s forces for 150 years, again this would make him an ally to the Pact. He might want Orr, but that’s unlikely IMO – especially if he’s learned anything about how the Pact took out an Elder Dragon. He’s no idiot, he’s not going to make enemies out of the greatest force of Tyria, and indeed, the world.

Beyond this, I have nothing more to say. You say all you’ve heard is that Joko would be ignored. But that’s not true. What you should be hearing is “until Joko makes himself a threat first, he won’t be the target of a group who has bigger priorities.”

The Iron Legion probably doesn’t give a skritt’s buttocks about Joko. They’re backing up the Pact to take out Elder Dragons – the second they go after Joko instead, they may pull out. Same goes for Vigil, who are likewise primarily interested in Elder Dragons and those who become huge threats (like the Molten Alliance). Priory probably as well as the Krytan nation and sylvari race. End of the day, unless Joko makes himself a threat first – which we have seen no real indication of him intending to do such let alone expand beyond Elona, only the Order of Whispers would be backing the Pact against Joko, and maybe the humans of Elonian descent.

Narcemus.1348:

No, I know exactly what Joko is like. I know he’s no Lich Lord, but he is power hungry, and in his long lifetime eventually he will get bored of just owning Elona. As for why he didn’t move northwards and try to conquer more lands before Zhaitan, my best guess would be solidifying his position. Obviously it was a near bloodless revolution when it came to the leaders, but people never surrender as easily, you need to rule over them with an iron fist until their will is broken. Not only did he have the people of Elona to deal with, but he had to deal with the Centaurs, Heket, and Harpies, all which I can see causing him headaches. Personal opinion, he bided his time (something he can do as an undead lord) and Zhaitan’s coming gave him something to be afraid of and made him give up any thoughts of moving on to conquer more of Tyria.

Well, I’ll just say this first. I don’t want you to be ruling anything, because you sound like you’d make a worse (more evil and cruel, that is) overlord than Joko is.

• Point to me where it says he’s ruling with an iron fist.
• Point to me where he ever had thoughts of conquering Tyria. Let alone any indication that Zhaitan kept him from conquering Tyria.
• Point to me where he’ll be bent on ruling more if he ever tires of ruling Elona – usually when long-living rulers grow bored, instead of wanting to own more they just want to create intrigue within their own nation.

From what we learned about Joko, he always laid claim to Elona – and only to Elona. He’s not the nicest ruler, but he’s not ruling with an iron grip per se. He’s rationing water and crops (what the Warmarshals of Kourna did ever since they kitten the Elon), and he punishes those who rise against him (something any nation does). He rewards those faithful and the only people we’ve heard hide or tail of him oppressing are the Ossas.

@Narcemus: Given the Catacombs of Kathandrax, and the dwarven village beneath the Blazeridge steppes (not the zone, but the geological location) visited in Edge of Destiny, I’m guessing dwarven. Though the “dining hall” certainly has a norn touch to it, what with the mounted trophies (but I guess charr are into that sort of thing too with the Giganticus Moosicus?).

Personally, I’m thinking that dwarves were the original inhabitants of Ascalon and the Blood Legion “Homelands.” Kathandrax Steelsoul was a dwarf who held/pushed back the charr, and given the location of where he was buried, well it’s right along the path the charr would have taken when they were in their conquest from east of the Blazeridge – the Ecology of the Charr seems to me to imply that they made an n shape in their expansion, starting on the eastern side of the Blazeridge, moving north, then west until they hit the Shiverpeaks (and norn?), then south into now-Ascalon, only to be pushed back in 100 BE by humans. Thus, dwarves who originally occupied the lands being taken by the charr, like the grawl, fled into the Southern Shiverpeak Mountains – with the jotun occupying the Northern and Far Shiverpeak Mountains, if not having already seen the fall of their civilization’s height, and then the dwarves expanded northwards into the Northern (or, I prefer, Central) Shiverpeak Mountains, ending at Yak’s Bend and Iron Horse Mines.

@Lokheit: Well, charr hands are bigger than human hands. To a charr, it’d likely be one-handed.

You seem to be misunderstanding something.

The Pact is an anti-Elder Dragon organization solely comprised of other factions. It is, in other words, an alliance. The only thing they’ve been doing is fighting things that are Elder Dragons(’ minions), aiding Elder Dragons(’ minions), or preventing fighting Elder Dragons(’ minions). However, the Pact is comprised of organizations which are not solely anti-Elder Dragon.

In other words: the Pact won’t go after Joko unless he becomes a threat related to the Elder Dragons, even if it’s as indirect as preventing fighting one. However, those who comprise the Pact – for example, the Order of Whispers – very well may.

Furthermore, we have historical evidence that Joko, while not the nicest guy in the neighborhood, is not evil. He is not a tyrannical kill-all-the-things who seeks to rule the world. He took control of Elona 60 years after Nightfall – however, there was no movement of him pushing north for the following 90 years that was between him taking reign and Zhaitan rising, let alone the 190 years between him taking reign and Kralkatorrik rising.

There is absolutely no evidence that Joko wants more than Elona. He’s no idiot, even if he’s the comic relief villain of GW1, and he knows how much hassle it is to rule a large nation. Furthermore, he has to maintain both living and undead – which is likely a hard job. He rewards those who work for him, and only require tribute like any other king would from his subjects. Though the Movement words things rather harshly, in actuality, he doesn’t seem all that “bad” of a ruler – no more than typical rulers of old.

The Pact won’t be going against Joko unless Joko gives them reason.

Chances are, if we ever get to Elona, it’ll be the Order of Whispers – acting independently – making the first move.

Plagiarised.2865:

I’ve been getting really interested in the guild wars lore lately and I was wondering, lore-wise (excluding players), what race has the highest population?

Depends on how far you go. If you’re just talking about continental Tyria, my bet would be asura, human, or charr. If you’re talking about the supercontinent that Tyria and Elona are part of, I’d go charr – we don’t know how large their territory is, but Ascalon is just ~1/3rd-1/4th of it. Maybe less, since the Blood Legion controls both north of Ascalon and east of the Blazeridge Mountains (and we don’t know where the Ash Legion’s territory is either). But it depends on two unknown factors: how many humans Joko keeps alive in Elona, and how large the charr territory is off the map.

If you’re going worldwide, I’d presume humans, unless Cantha has had a major falling out, in which again I’d say charr or humans.

Gandarel.5091:

Narcemus.1348:

For all we know the charr could possibly outnumber humanity. Remember they have the Blood Legion Homelands up north of Ascalon, and if I remember right they have lands east of the blazeridge steppes as well. It’s speculation, but I would say Charr and Humanity are close ties for first.

Charrs only inhabit Ascalon at the moment I think. If they would still have some ground in the Blazeridge or the Blood legion homelands, i think we would know and Ascalon woudn’t be filled with the members and leadersof all the legions. Besiedes, Blood legion homelands is cut off by the Flame legion and the Blazeridge is full of ogres atm.

East of the Blazeridge Mountains – not steppes (though technically it’d be east of both) – lies the Blood Legion capital where Bangar rules from. The Mountains aren’t charr lands, but on the other side of them is.

Charr inhabit far more than Ascalon, Gandarel – Ascalon is only the Iron Legion’s territory. Ash and Blood rule their own territories, and Blood’s seems to be the largest. Ascalon isn’t filled with the “leaders of all the Legions” – Malice and Bangar, the Ash and Blood Imperators respectively, aren’t in Ascalon and they only have 2 tribunes (afaik) in Ascalon each, both being stationed in the Black Citadel, whereas the Iron Legion has about 10 Tribunes. That’s 16 unaccounted for Tribunes, roughly, and 2 unaccounted for Imperators.

Narcemus.1348:

I mean I would assume, based on Blood Legion Homelands and Iron Legion Homelands, that the Ash Legion territory is about the same size, but this doesn’t have to be the case.

Blood Legion territory goes off the map – at least their capital is off the map to the east, and I’d presume their territory would go from the Blood Legion Homelands to at least said capital, where ever it is. So it’s not the same size as Ascalon. And the Blood Legion itself is the largest of the three legions too, I believe.

@Arcalas: I wouldn’t say Zhaitan being dead opens up a path to Cantha at all. As mentioned, there’s the DSD – not to mention that it’s very possible the Pact is keeping Orr and the Strait of Malchor quarantined for a while, what with the risen not just dropping dead with Zhaitan’s death. I mean, who knows how many Risen got stationed on the Ring of Fire (we know Zhaitan had his fleet going there and it is a magical hotspot, what with a Bloodstone and the Door of Komalie being there).

As to going elsewhere, well, with all the problems going on in Tyria, I don’t think anyone other than small adventurer/explorer groups or would-be refugees are willing to go try opening access to other lands – or at least spend enough reasonable resources for such. Especially when there’s no knowledge of what’s been happening in the past 150 years.

The only places outside Tyria I see us going would be north to Jormag, west to Malyck’s tree/White Mantle issue/Mordremoth(?), and southeast to Joko and Kralkatorrik.

Arcalas.9368:

O and fractals was is just a hugh hint box. Grawl following a fire like god, a asura going mad, the swamp fractal, the coming fight with jormag, the unknown colossus, the deep underwater zone, etc. etc. they all hint at things to come to the game but i see more reason why anet is not going to do cantha or if they can i dont see them bringing cantha back in including the post that has u all posting about bring cantha back.

Not everything in Fractals is meant to be a hint. I don’t see the grawl or swamp fractals as hints, for example. Nor do I see how they could be, TBH.

I wouldn’t say at all that Cantha will not be done. No, it won’t be done right away, it may not be done for a while, however to say it was abandoned is just pure foolishness at this point.

Narcemus.1348:

On top of that, Palawa Joko is a definite threat to the Pact, plus additional allies never hurts.

How is Joko a threat to an organization that is solely about fighting Elder Dragons? Is Joko allying with an Elder Dragon? No – he’s been fighting the Risen. If anything, Joko may be viewed as an ally to the Pact – even if he’s hated by the Order of Whispers (the Whispers doesn’t even take up a third of the Pact by the end of the main storyline).

Flame Temple was more than catacombs – hell, in GW1 there were no catacombs known to us. In GW2, the only part left are the catacombs which the Flame Legion are doing who-knows-what there. But non-Flame Legion didn’t go into catacombs, nor did they go into human catacombs during GW1 (except Vatlaaw who was a single scout that used them to get through Ascalon unnoticed). But apparently you forget that they built the Black Citadel atop of Rin – and they were sitting atop, not beneath, Rin since it fell. Same with Surmia, Drascir, and all other ruins. They built makeshift structures and used the ruins as bases while they warred with Ascalon – and afterwards, they built real structures on top, ranging from things like Ashford Forum to the Black Citadel.

Cathedral of Flames was not of human origin. Humans never made it that far north. The furthest north they’ve made was Duke Gaban’s estate, seen in the BMP, which reaches to the northern edge of the Seared lands. It is explicitly stated in game that the Cathedral of Flames has ruins moved north by the charr as souvenirs. (" Burntsoul and his band had a pretty pile of Ascalonian treasure down there, sacked from the ruins.") So yes, there are human ruins there, but the place was not made by humans! Also, I don’t recall a Balthazar statue in Cathedral of Flames – the only dungeon with such a statue is Shards of Orr (you probably got confused by the picture of the Shards of Orr statue being on the CoF wiki page, added by Falconeye who almost always gets his stuff wrong).

Go into Doomlore Shrine, there’s at least two there. There’s three in the camp that Pyre was imprisoned at – hell, he was imprisoned inside one such structure.

You can even see them in these pictures:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Doomlore_Shrine_view.jpg (background)
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Charr_camp.jpg

The dwarves were written out as a playable race back in Eye of the North. ArenaNet explicitly stated that they did this because they wanted to follow the atypical fantasy genre as little as possible. This is also why they redesigned the sylvari midway through development – because the old look was too elf-like.

They may come back in larger numbers as NPCs, if/when we ever go to the Depths of Tyria, but their numbers are dwindling, they cannot reproduce, and Anet doesn’t want them to be playable. They certainly aren’t done fighting – and won’t be until Primordus is dead.

Andrew.6793:

The only gripe I have with GW 2 is the races. There are 3 humanoid races that are basically the same, only they are a little bit different in size. We see humans all the time, and it gets a little boring, no offense haha.

So you want a fourth humanoid race that’s basically the same, only they are a little bit shorter? Yet you’re tired of this?

Makes sense.

Though that’s only the case if you look skin deep. Norn, sylvari, and human are all greatly different from each other.

There’s a hylek in Kessex who mentions a dragon’s presence reaching so far north – said NPC talks solely about the new krait and quaggan presence in Viathan Lake. Then there’s a Quaggan skill challenge NPC who mentions that Elder Dragon influence pushed them out of their home, which was in the Unending Ocean.

We don’t know why the krait left, just that they did at the same time as the quaggans (we were originally told that the krait pushed the quaggans out, but the aforementioned quaggan says they fled into krait, not from) which was ~50 years prior to the game – the estimated time of the DSD’s rise.

@Bunmaster and Exelion: You two got it backwards. What Bunmaster said about Cantha was the response to Canthan District in Divinity’s Reach (GW2); what Exelion said was the response to Kaineng City in Cantha (GW1).

The only negative feedback I’ve ever heard about Cantha itself is the (imo silly, but hey, Asian pride?) argument that GW1’s Kaineng City gave a “bad impression” that all Asian cultures were poor, overpopulated, and living in slums (because fantasy reflects reality amiright).

The Canthan district was poorly received because of the meshing of cultures in structure design. If you actually look at the pre-beta screenshots of the Canthan district, it was not poor or shacks. It was removed so that Anet could remake it for having a better reception.

Though like Exelion, I don’t see why people think “temporarily removed district to remake for better reception” equate “the continent of Cantha will never come to be!!11!1!!!one!11!oneone!!!11eleven!”

soboard.6974:

He’s quite possibly the worst character ever.

Trust me, he isn’t. Not in stories, not in games, not in MMOs, and no, not even in the GW franchise (there are some pathetically silly side characters in the two game series, but since they’re side characters, they’re ignored).

Honestly, the only thing they need to change about Trahearne is his voice actor. His personality, even if a bit bipolar, is fine. Most of the reasons I’ve seen folks hate him are really silly and nonsensical – or even just due to them not understanding the character(‘s background) properly (which isn’t a fault of the character, but the player and/or the storytelling).

And the only way that voice will sound good, if it’s on a golem or some other machine.

Beetle.2476:

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP POSTING THIS!

Trahearne is considered the worst person in guild wars 2 because of the whole piggybacking thing, and the fact that he “lacks a personality.” which I call bull. The only reason people say that is because he just randomly pops up in non sylvari storylines, so he has no backstory. All they need is to alter the pre order storyline a little bit so he appears in them as well.

Also this. Though even for non-sylvari folks, he has backstory. He just has backstory too late for them.

But aside from voice and the “randomly pops up” – people hate him because he “takes the spotlight” as Marshal of the Pact, though he doesn’t really do much in that spotlight he supposedly has people still give that claim. In reality, they just want to be the top dog without realizing all the boringness of being that top dog in the realm of economics (those people should try making a business).

It should be further noted that the Great Northern Wall was even bigger right after the Searing too, compared to GW2’s time, as the charr have been continuously demolishing it (often harassed by ghosts in the process).

However, I wouldn’t put the ghosts there nowadays as part of human tenacity. The Foefire altered their minds, and there’s really only one ghost who’s broken free of the Foefire’s influence (Bria), and one other (Adelbern) who was spared of its mind altering effects (though Kasha may have also broken free of the influence given her personality). Ascalonian ghosts are not an effect of human tenacity, but of ancient magic cursing their souls.

Now you’re just being silly. Quoting in a move convenient way? How? EVERYONE can read your original post – so long as you don’t edit it. So it doesn’t matter if I’m quoting a sentence or the full, because people (myself, yourself, and everyone inbetween and not) can read the full post. There is no “more convenient” way of quoting, nor is there a means to twist words or put words in others’ mouths within the same thread (especially one as short as this one!) because, again, your original post is right there, still unedited.

mercury ranique.2170:

It’s very simple. If quoting, use the quote button’s (or if, like me, you have trouble with multiquoting) use copy paste. The way you did it is considered plain wrong and subjective.

That’s what I did. That’s what I always do. I use the quote button and I copy/paste. You can tell by the fact that the quote boxes have your full name.

And if I don’t do that, the only alteration I may make is fixing a misspelling. Nothing more. No grammatical punctuation changes, no syntax changes, nothing of that sort.

I never twisted your words. I never put words in your mouth. I never kittening quoted you in a way that was “more convenient.” I didn’t do anything you’re claiming to do and I sure as hell don’t give a kitten if I win an argument or not – hell, I LIKE being wrong. Wanna know why? Because it proves to people that I don’t know everything, and it annoys me when folks call me things like “loremaster” or whatever. And I sure as hell cannot see how you think I could have done something I very clearly didn’t do, since you’re not blaming miscommunication but rather blaming me for altering what you said in my response to you.

You may think you were clear, but the very fact we’re having this discussion is proof in of itself that you weren’t.

Stooperdale.3560:

Given that underwater combat isn’t good enough to entirely support a major expansion, I think it is likely that a lot of the DSD’s minions will be encountered on land. None of the aquatic races seem to live in air pockets that could allow land combat in the oceans. Underwater inquest bases could support dungeons but not whole zones. I think it is therefore reasonable to speculate where the dragon minions would come ashore and need fighting.

And it couldn’t be that they work on making underwater combat better with such an expansion.

Because lets face it, it makes no sense for the DSD to come up on land Tequatl style just to be killed by us. We have to go to it.

mercury ranique.2170:

Konig, I wouldkindly ask to stop making half quotes to prove you are right. Either you quote me fully or not.

‘The PvP content was revolutionary butr has nothing to do with the lore and I dont expect a big PvP revolution like that in GW2 just cause they are going to cantha’

I have never said that PvP has nothing to do with lore. I said that I agree with the person I was reacting to that the pvp-content was revolutionary in. The subject here was revolutionary PvP content. And I was stating that has nothing to do with lore. That is something totally different.

Making half and edited notes in a discussion on a public forum is one of the worse and meanest things to do. You can choose, by being treated from no one as a nobody that is on my ignore list or by appoligising for this very rude error you made. You have been putting words in my mouth and twisting and turning them so they look like you can provew a point. There is nothing in the world that can make me more angry and upset.

I do hope you did this by error and not deliberatly.

I don’t see where it makes a difference when I respond to the whole of a post or the whole of a comment that I’m directly responding to, as I’m still responding and referring to the whole of the post(s) or point(s) brought up.

Your wording was tricky then, if not incorrectly stated, if you didn’t mean what you said. Because what you said can be read the same as “the PvP content has nothing to do with lore, but it was revolutionary, and I don’t expect a big PvP revolution like that in GW2 just because they are going to Cantha.” – it’s literally the same thing, but different syntax. Whether you meant it or not, you did say that PvP content introduced with Factions was, while revolutionary, irrelevant to lore.

I see no reason to apologize for something not my own fault, and I held no intention of being rude (nor do I now). If anything, now you’re not only rude but overreacting over a case of miscommunication. I put no words in your mouth – you put them there yourself – nor did I twist any meaning in the words written out by your own hand. Perhaps you didn’t write them as you intend to, perhaps you don’t see how they mean something other than what you meant (in addition to or alternatively), but nonetheless I’m not at fault here – nor am I saying you are either, before you claim such.

No, it’s a kraken. It’s called such by ArenaNet themselves. Though one can call a kraken a “tentacle monster” since krakens are basically just gigantic squid/octopi/whatever hybrids.

(Edit: and yes, I realize you were joking, Bummaster)

As said, there’s really 4 candidates for Khan-Urship at any one time – the Imperator of each legion. Smodur is considered the most likely, due to his possession of the Claw of the Khan-Ur, which is an ungue that has bits of the original Khan-Ur worked into it, as well as 4 gemstones each representing a different Legion. I suspect that it’s meant to look like the Centurion’s Claw from the HoM, since the HoM weapons are mostly based off of lore-wise important weapons, from Sohothin/Magdaer copies (Fiery Dragon Sword) to Stormcaller copies (Mountain Caller Horn), so I suspect Centurion’s Claw is meant to be a copy of the Claw of the Khan-Ur (and that is an ungue by GW1 design).

However, Smodur is said to be unwanting to take the title, and is more likely to melt down the Claw of the Khan-Ur in a show of pushing the charr in new directions.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

another thing did we know where the iron legion “capitol” was in guild wars 1 and before?

We don’t know where any capital was, other than the Flame Legion’s being at Hrangmer – however, we don’t know where Hrangmer is at.

Gandarel.5091:

Even 250 years ago the charr was a savage race with either wooden structures or nothing.

They moved in to the leftovers of the human kingdom of Ascalon, mostly into catacombs, like the Cathedral of Flames to make capitols.

They are a savage, brutal antagonists of the game, reworked for a playable race.

That’s…. really inaccurate.

Yes, the charr do build over human ruins, but they didn’t “move in” to them – they just built atop of, in an attempt to show their superiority. We don’t really see many structures in the way of charr buildings in GW1, but those we do seem to be either war-mobile structures (those seen in Prophecies and the BMP), or made by the Blood Legion (the “charr homelands” we visit in GW1 are belonging to the Blood Legions). They did advance a lot, but even in GW1 we see, albeit rarely, large metal structures. Concept art of those large structures, since I lack a screenshot

They had more than just “wooden structures.”

Similarly, Cathedral of Flames was neither a capital nor a moved-into-catacombs. It wasn’t even of human origin, though the charr did move the ruins into it.

Not asking you to write that it’s your opinion in each sentence. Just that, usually, such opinions begin with denoting such, not denoting opinion, declaring opinion, then denoting opinion – as that gives the false implication (quoting or not) that the beginning is fact that you then divulge into opinion. Though as I said, I misread the last bit of the first paragraph, which made me think you were stating fact with how the Factions plot “felt like” it went and ignored Factions’ lore to do pirates vs. goths (which is both untrue (nor do I see how you began feeling like that since the Luxons v. Kurzicks was always part of lore, even with Shiro’s history, even if not highlighted until midway through the primary storyline) as well as unreasonable as the Luxons and Kurzicks are more than just “pirates” and “goths” – far far more). It was mainly that misreading of over-poorly-generalization that got to me.

And the paragraph with no denotion of personal opinion.

mercury ranique.2170:

The other two lines in that block are fact imo.

That PvP has nothing to do with lore (wrong) and that Anet won’t go to Cantha for the sake of adding PvP content (speculative to the nth degree)? I wouldn’t call either fact.

Alliance Battles and the Battle Isles were chocked full of lore. Hell, in all of PvP, Factions added the most lore to PvP. Far more than Nightfall, let alone Eye of the North.

And given that there’s lore background, and that Anet loves tying lore into their game – both on PvE and PvP levels – for why they add certain things, I can see them looking at Canthan lore, seeing something that would work great for GW2 PvP from that, but not be able to implement that “something” without Cantha. Unlikely – extremely so – but still possible.

So no, if that’s what you were talking about, not fact.

But I digress.

mercury ranique.2170:

So when I can I edit as an IP but I see the gw2w as a lesser knowledgebase as the gw1w

The issue is that GWW editors want as little GW2 lore as reasonable on that wiki. For whatever reason they want to give. So while GW2W is a “lesser knowledgebase” than GWW (which I concur with), GWW lacks GW2W and will tell readers that the Six Gods made the bloodstones, not the Seers – and it’s not wrong, it’s just telling lore from a GW1-only viewpoint… most of the time.

Or rather, skin tones throughout continental Tyria should appear more Arabic/middle eastern, unless Orr was full of white folks with Arabic names.

Lorewise, “white” probably shouldn’t exist in known human kingdoms. Unless there’s that much of a difference in climate for skin tone changes between Orr and Ascalon… Which I’m doubtful, personally.

mercury ranique.2170:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@mercury: If I wasn’t short on time, I’d explain how you’re rather wrong on multiple points. So I’ll respond to you later.

Spare the effort. I only expressed in more abstract way what you where saying, and gave my personal opinion on factions.

I know we clash heads sometimes, but what annoy’s me sometimes bout you is the ’ I’m right and your wrong’ way of stating things.

It’s not “I’m right and you’re wrong” in what I say, but rather “you’re stating things as fact when they are, in fact, just opinion.”

What I was referring to, primarily, would be:

artwork in the city was crapy

[…]

he sea and forest are ok looking but not asian themed and had nothing to do with the campaign imo

[…]

PvE content was a laugh in factions, it is by far the most easy campaign.

Though I’ll admit that at first I thought your comment of “It felt to me as if halfway the story they changed their mind and decide, nope we dont want an asian themed campaign lets go gothic vs pirates.” was worded differently (in that I didn’t see “it felt to me as if”) – I blame having just woken up for that.

And I’d just like to note that the Kurzicks do have asian themes to them. Particularly in their clothing – that’s full on samurai and geisha inspired.

You’re free to your opinion – you just have the constant issue of stating your opinion as if they were facts (though in the above post, you do better than usual, but you still put opinion before denoting what you were going to say is opinion – primarily at the beginning, though the city is indeed a maze :P). Something that WP does as well, and the irony is that you call him out on that all the time, and even do what you call him out on in the process (you present your opinions of WP as facts while stating “WP presents his opinions on lore as facts”).

In a similar fashion: In my opinion, Factions wasn’t the easiest in PvE standards of the campaigns (Prophecies holds that title), but rather was simply the most repetative of them, as every mission “bonus” and enemy strategy was the same: promoting speed clearing versus armies upon armies of constantly hitting PBAoE armies (a silly idea when introducing a glass cannon profession).

mercury ranique.2170:

Still saying this with the highest respect of your knowledge of lore and details. Where I have to spit through old files and books you often knows it out of your head.

Often I do, often I don’t. Often times I double check just to make sure. Though lately I’ve been forced to refer only to my own memory thanks to GW2W’s lacking (correct) documentation of lore.