Guild Wars 2

Although the existence of Zone Green – should it follow the pathing of the other Zones – actually indicate that the Inquest, and by extension, Kudu, does know about the Sixth Elder Dragon (whether they know who, what, or where it is – that’s unknown). Though Zone Green could be dedicated for the sylvari not because of being ED minions, but due to their immunity to ED corruption.

After all, Kudu retains free will so there must be something to himself outside willingly becoming corrupted by four ED’s energies.

I don’t think it’s really possible to “pull a Glint” – the will of an Elder Dragon is actively enforced on their minions. The only reason why Glint was able to break free was not only due to her telepathy (which could be the equivilant of the Pale Tree being raised by Ventari), but also – and more importantly – because of a powerful spell the forgotten used on her to give her free will. So without that spell, it shouldn’t be possible.

Furthermore, Malyck doesn’t (or didn’t) have amnesia – it was believed he didn’t before they realized he wasn’t from the Pale Tree (the PC, and in turn Caithe and Trahearne, believed he had amnesia because he didn’t know what the Grove or the Pale Tree was, however if you follow Caithe’s suggestion its shown that he didn’t have amnesia – he everything that happened since his “birth”, it’s just that he didn’t wake up near others – so he was much like the Firstborn when he awoke, except without a Dream of Dreams experience according to what’s found in Trahearne’s suggested path).

The Crystal Desert isn’t a wasteland. There are hydras, giants (possible ogres by GW2 standards), minotaurs, scarabs, griffons, centaurs, and by now probably undead. Furthermore, as shown with the Shatterer and the Branded Lieutenants, Kralkatorrik can turn the land itself into minions too. There’s also Glint’s children to consider.

And while Jormag’s losing minions, he’s also gaining them – similar to how Zhaitan gained minions from killing foes, as some Icebrood have shown to have crushed in faces (Edge of Destiny), so it seems evens corpses can be turned into icebrood.

(Grenth’s skull is a mask actually, not his actual head)

The Six Gods more or less are beings of magic – I view them, based off of Abaddon and Dhuum, more as containers with personalities for magic. These containers have a limit, hence why the half-god Grenth didn’t kill of Dhuum (couldn’t contain all the magic – mind you, this is a hypothesis), but in of themselves the containers don’t matter outside of preventing the magic that makes a god from going rampant (hence why Kormir was needed when killing Abaddon). I wouldn’t say they’re human mages (unless you know of humans which have wings like Dwayna), though some could have been like Kormir and were originally humans who ascended (I suspect Abaddon, Lyss, and Ilya were – at the least).

The idea of the contacts between humans and gods being cut off due to the Elder Dragons does have merit, and some more support – but also evidence against it. During one of the later storylines, Citadel of Silence, you call upon Grenth himself and you’re answered by one of his Seven Reapers. However, said Reaper says he’s weakened – but never says from what. Originally, I suspected (and still do) that there’s a war in the Mists between Grenth and a freed Dhuum – and that this war in the reason why so many shades and aatxes are seeping into the world (at Godslost Swamp, Blackroot Cut, and Reaper’s Gate specifically). However, the silence of the Six Gods started around 1075 AE, more or less, and while no exact date is given, it’s often the standard “250 years” for the silence – 50 years, give or take, longer than the ED’s time of rise.

Except that wiki article does NOT state that the Great Destroyer was taking power to wake Primordus as you claim. Nor is that the case with Jormag and Svanir, nor is that the case with Kralkatorrik and Glint. Yes, the deaths of champions do cause the Elder Dragons to react and weaken – this is exactly my point I’ve been making, except that it’s not only champions (they just give the biggest reactions).

Pure speculation as to where the mursaat lived, as we do not know where they lived (same goes for seers), and the jotun were not underground but above ground. That, however, is irrelevant to the destroyers being made from mursaat and jotun fossils – also pure speculation which you have, just like the first point, failed to provide a source for (because there is none).

Yes, actually, everything we know on Destroyers tell us that they’re not corrupted creatures but lava and stone. The destroyers themselves are repeatedly said to be creatures of fire/lava and stone/obsidian/steel. Other minions are said to be corrupted creatures with their respective elements attached. One such case comes from the Movement of the World “With his breath, he twisted earth and stone, shaping creatures and giving them life.” Not creatures, but the earth and stone itself.

Yes, my quote is proof that Jormag was feeding on his minions… what I’ve been arguing for this entire time, and what you were arguing against the entire time (that champions drain their ED of power to wake them – but as shown, and what my point is, Drakkar, champion of Jormag, was giving power to wake Jormag).

Right because all of the risen who’s sole military tactic is “swarm mindlessly” outside when a powerful minion is around is the sure case of showing equal intelligence! Just pay attention to what they say and how they act – that alone is proof to show that the powerful minions have more self-will and intelligence! The interview with Ree and Jeff that Bruno linked is pure pure straight from the horse’s mouth event! Yet you still deny what the developers themselves stated.

And where does he say he needs massive amounts of energy to revive a mere human? Keep in mind that it’s not size, but intelligence and power – also remember that he takes first then gives back. So with all those millions of mindless human, norn, charr, grub, asura, hyket, quaggan, and so forth drones out there, he’s likely gained magic from each one (not to mention all the Orrian artifacts and other magic-rich Orrian stuff, like the Artesian Waters which is a magical hotspot in of itself) even after reanimating them.

Except that he is outright contradicted not only by old lore, but new lore as well – humans were brought to the world (and perhaps the continent) by the Six Gods. This is both old and new lore – predating and postdating Thruln the Lost. However, Thruln claims that the Six Gods paid no heed to the humans until they made nations, and that the jotun were the ones to nuture the humans before they did so. However, humans made nations within 5 years of landing on the northern continent – one of which being Orr (though an exact date isn’t given to Orr’s founding, we know it’s the oldest continental Tyrian human nation and that humanity arrived on continental Tyria in 205 BE).

ArenaNet, and in turn GW2, is not a conventional MMO in its lore giving. They do not just spew out mere facts, nor are things in a central location. Guild Wars 2 has shown ever since Ghosts of Ascalon that lore is being presented in a subjective viewpoint – meaning there will be deviations from individual to individual, based on both their own limited knowledge and on how they wish to view things. It’d be like taking the priest in Godslost Swamp’s dialogue for why the Six Gods actually left (claiming it’s because humans sinned) as granted for the same reason he claims he knows it: he’s a priest, so he knows these matters best.

Even in GW1, this was slightly shown, though more due to retcons-made-not than anything. Things change, because the perspective was subjective and false. This is why you must look at everything on the matter and find the consistencies. And Thruln’s the largest *in*consistency in the matter of how gods and humans interacted with originally.

Now, I’m not saying that everything Thruln says is false – just that the majority of it is. We also know that his claims for why jotun society fell is, directly at least, also false. He blames solely the disappearance of magic from their society alone, however in actuality (as we’re told from a ghost “Elder Thruln” who shows us these events in one of the norn storylines, as well as being told in the blog post and by a multitude of Durmand Priory scholars) it’s that after ruling the entire Shiverpeak Mountains their pride and desire to rule brought them to civil war which in turn led to their downfall. They could have lost magic around this time, but it wouldn’t have been direct from the gods (most likely – it’s still a possibility mind you, just an unlikely one given our other sources on history – ones that aren’t passed down by the highly fallible oral tradition).
BTW, when I correct minor things – it’s not so much because I expect things to always be literal, but rather because I know that some people do read or write words in a literal sense, and I want to make sure that there’s no false information spreading as much as possible (keeps things easier).

However, typically in fiction the “big bad” is also the last to rise. This would in fact imply the Sixth to be said “worst of the ED” rather than Primordus (since it’s clearly not Kralkatorrik – and usually in such scenarios, the “worst of the villains” doesn’t awaken/show up until after a couple lesser ones were knocked out first).

I do not believe that Primordus’ development to show him “clearly” as the Big Bad. He was “followed” by in the sense that he was first, little else – the ED aren’t united nor is it likely they woke up just because Primordus did.

When Jennah was hit with the Golem’s transportion beam… I don’t think that mesmer powers would have kept her safe from that.

It seems that, given how the Seperatists were able to capture a norn, a charr, and Queen Jennah with immense ease that the teleporting made them groggy (also remember: they drugged Sigfast, it’s likely they drugged Jennah and Mia too). Remember that Jennah was able to survive simply because she was going full defense.

Maybe, despite being a powerful mesmer, she’s not proficient in offensive mesmeric abilities, but just telepathy, non-offensive illusions, defensive shieldings, and slowing things down. That’s all we see her do after all.

@Sephelutis: Maybe she’s more concerned about being a benevolent ruler than a successful one.

There is a relation implied by Thruln the Lost, but over half of his information is false so his comments on the “Age of Giants” and how norn and jotun ruled Tyria with other giant races may not be accurate. Furthermore, Thruln the Lost – who, I reiterate, is wrong on multiple levels – is the sole source for any relation of any degree outside modern enemies in the game. The closest other thing we have is the norn biography question which states that jotun are the norn’s “ancient foes” – but how old is ancient in this regard? Either way, that’d imply the opposite of Thruln’s dialogue (and makes your hypothesis of the same race to be less likely).

The only race that is implied by an accurate source (Ree Soesbee) to be related to jotun would be the ogres, which are definitely not akin to the norn.

(Minor correction: previous dragon awakening – not first – which was 10,000 BE, estimated)

However, Primordus still had to make his army from scratch, and the creation of destroyers is slower (though how much slower is unknown) than branded or risen – which are more or less instantaneous (speed of making icebrood’s not entirely known, since we don’t see or read it happening outside failed attempts).

Being the first to awaken doesn’t mean much, and there’s little sign of Primordus beneath Ascalon (oddly enough), and the dwarves more or less sacrificed themselves rather than be defeated (it’s said they’re still fighting in the Depths of Tyria).

One could argue Primordus should have the biggest army, however Zhaitan had an entire nation’s worth of corpses when it woke up, and has been conscripting the fallen enemies (and possibly using the corpses of fallen risen to create the abominations – if not simply reanimating them), and unlike Primordus, both Jormag and Zhaitan didn’t have a race with an anti-you transformation spell combatting them, allowing easier spreading of minions and influence.

Truth be told, I think Jormag’s the one who’s the “strongest” (despite Zhaitan having been called such in the Movement of the World) – he’s been the one who’s outright harrasing the most races, some of which are known for their strength (norn), killed at least one, at most four, Spirits of the Wild (something never before done), and holds the easiest method outside Kralkatorrik for corrupting creatures (mental abilities vs making, physical, or waiting on corpses).

But I digress – point is, nothing really shows Primordus is outright stronger than the others (personally, I’d argue that of the four we know enough about, he’s the third strongest – beneath Zhaitan (2nd) and Jormag (1st) – but this is personal opinion).

EdwinLi.1284:

She is alive. They’re keeping her alive because of future story plans for her role.

Don’t forget this is only Act 1 of the Personal Story and we still have 5 or more Acts to go with each Act covering 1 Elder Dragon (Primordus, Jormag, Deep Sea Dragon, Kralkatorrik, and the 6th Unknown Dragon)

It is pure speculation that each of the next five installments will be focused on a sole Elder Dragon. I don’t think that’s the case, and would in fact say that the next will deal with more than one – and that Primordus, the DSD, and the Sixth (which may not be awake) will be taken care of after some time – with non-ED expansions in between. But this, too, is pure speculation.

Igneel.2618:

I think, maybe.. that 6th ‘Unknow’ Elder Dragon (related in teory with the silvary born) is not a Bad Guy like the others. I mean.. would be interesting to see something like that.

However, it is. The jotun history outright tells us of six “Swallowers” that destroyed the world many times over. Unless something happened to it after it went into hibernation last time, it is just as destructive as the other five Elder Dragons (aka “Swallowers”). If there’s a benevolent Elder Dragon, it’ll be an unknown seventh.

@BrunoBRS: Asura are mammals. This was confirmed by Ree via Regina on Guru2 a long time ago (caused by Ree being shocked that there was fan-fiction which had asura laying eggs – they don’t).

@OP: There probably are racial-specific poisons out there, but just as norn are more resistent to cold yet still have equal susceptibility to being Chilled, mechanically these things aren’t shown. So mehcanically, everything’s equal unless there’s an “immunity to” ability on NPCs (e.g., hylek are immune poisons; dredge to blind; destroyers to fire, etc. – though this is sometimes bugged).

Given that Lady Althea not only died before the Foefire, but also moved on before it, the only lore on her would be what we already know – she was the daughter of Duke Barradin, and the betrothed of Rurik. Rurik gets very small mention, so does Barradin, simply because they’re not entirely relevant to the game’s story.

I think the above mentioned Camp Althea is the only mention of her in GW2. And I don’t mind this since, as said, she’s just a footnote in history.

Moragauth.8426:

Which brings me to another thing – I hope they make some manner of lore compendium accessible in game at some point. I know there’s GW-wiki, but something a little more elaborate would be nice, even if they charge separately for it.

Or something that’s not maintained by fans and thus easily susceptible to having speculation and/or false information added and overlooked for any amount of time, even years, and treated as fact by many.

I would love to have a full geneology of the human royalty, charr imperators, or what have you. We don’t even know who all of the firstborn are! There’s 3 or 4 unnamed ones!

Actually, the idea I was trying to bring up is that their “true form” is merely “whatever they want it to be” – that they’re “true form” has become lost to time.

Though I don’t see a relation to jotun that others do – too physically different. Even the bear form is greatly different from kodan, and their own personal theory is a bit… racist, IMO (but hey, they’re kodan – they look down on everyone).

BrunoBRS.5178:

there’s no known answer. they’re just immune to it, like one person would be immune to a disease.

this lack of answer is used to feed the popular theory that the sylvaris (and the pale tree, by default) are related to a sixth, unknown elder dragon.

But in an odd twist of irony, this is actually stronger proof for them not being such, given Kudu’s Monster, Kudu, and Subject Alpha from Crucible of Eternity. :P

@RAWR: The Making of Guild Wars 2 book indicates that Drakkar is the champion’s name, so it seems to no longer be unnamed.

@Wouw: You probably read that Jormag woke up beneath Drakkar Lake. This is an inconsistency stated by only 3 NPCs I believe (one in Hoelbrak, 2 in Frostgorge Sound), which is contradicted by not only at least one other NPC (forgot where) who states that Jormag awoke north of old norn territories, but various interviews and even a direct comment from Jeff Grubb via Stephane Lo Presti that Drakkar is, in fact, not Jormag and that there was never anything indicating such (Jeff should have looked closer at NPCs dialogues – I’ve seen many which are contradicting his statements from interviews…).

@Bruno: They’re not lich dragons? A lich is rather unique in undeath and Zhaitan’s known to only have one – Mazdek.

Magoslich.6857:

I think the weapons you get from AC could be instead new weapons infused with ghostly essence.

I’m inclined to go with this, given that the AC reward weapons go from metal to ghastly from day and night.

But on the actual weapons that ghosts wield – it’s likely the same explanation behind their clothing, cannons, guardian weapons, and the like – not actual spirits/ghosts, but more likely to be ectoplasm that’s been shaped into ghostly objects.

Rangers do use magic, ThiBash. They might not have in GW1 (outside nature spirits), but they do in GW2 – it’s how they differentiated themselves from the other adventure professions over they ears, in lore (where engineers went full technology, and thieves went with a mixture of tech and magic, rangers went no-technology).

Given this, I believe every profession which uses a torch is a magic user, so it’s less that torches are magic, but that the professions use magic with the torches as a medium.

I agree with the others that I don’t think the asura – as a whole – will go back underground. Same for norn going back north. Their livelihood has changed, and those from the depths are now dead – the modern asura has only known the surface. There will be some who go underground, of course, but most likely primarily for the isolation, uncovering lost relics and information, and any other old history.

Bard.7215:

Given that Primordus seems to be the biggest and the strongest elder dragon active right now, we can assume the depths are virtually uninhabitable and will be for a while.

Saywhat? Primordus is actually indicated to be the smallest (GW1 model being smaller than Kralk’s GW1 model), and there’s nothing to indicate its strength compared to the others.

However, given dragon minions don’t die with their master (per risen and Zhaitan), it I’d agree that the Depths will be uninhabitable for a while – due to the number of destroyers likely to be down there.

The “really cool plans” could have been scrapped – given how old that comment is – or the comment could be referring to the history of the mursaat being revealed (more or less) in GW2 – along with their magic in Arah.

I’d also agree with adapting to the sunlight. Take note that their eyes have also changed (smaller pupils), and that even norn have changed due to moving to warmer/bright climates. Most underground races will have lighter skin tones due to the lack of sunlight, so it’s only natural that they’d get darker by being on the surface for a few generations.

@Bruno: That hardly looks like a depiction of a dragon. Keep in mind that the grawl, being primitive, will likely have nonsensicle paintings as well.

@Bard: Who says they even have a true form? :o

The Tarnished Coast is the southern shore of the Maguuma Jungle. The Sea of Sorrow’s is not the Tarnished Coast, at all – a part of the Tarnished Coast (which is land) does touch the western Sea of Sorrows (which is water), but what you’re referring to is the southern Krytan coast.

Though now I see what you mean for Lion’s Arch being flooded – though it’s not as horrible as you claim. It’s merely from the lesser Giant’s Basin to the Sea of Sorrows being connected (from Lion’s Arch’s bays to Lake Gendarr and the body of water in Harathi Hinterlands – which why the hell is there a mountain in the middle of the former Giant’s Basin!?)

There’s no issue that I see with Divinity’s Reach, except a missing river north of it connecting the two lakes formerly the greater Giant’s Basin. Of course, due to the size (covering large areas while also very small details), it’s bound to have some fine-print inaccuracies (e.g., the lack or misplacements of the smaller lakes and islands).

I would expect that the idea has been for Cantha and Kryta to survive. It should also be noted that while in 300 AE, Kryta was made a colony of Elona and saw an expansion, the lands of Kryta were settled by humans since King Doric’s time – led by King Mazdack (first Krytan king, I believe?). This would indicate that Kryta’s about as old as Ascalon, but that they were very small and did not expand far (though for some reason Mazdek was buried in a crypt in the smaller Giant’s Basin….).

But… the tarnished coast is actually seemingly perfectly accurate to the world map?

Thing is, Elder Dragons are supposed to not look like traditional dragons – so sayeth ArenaNet in their Art of Guild Wars 2 book. Furthermore, it’s been repeatedly stated that Kuunavang (and other dragons) are different from the Elder Dragons. Furthermore, it would imply a relationship – and yes, people have speculated on a relationship between norn and humans (though not as a direct tribe of tall humans), and btw from Edge of Destiny: “It stripped him of his human form and made him his champion” – Eir, on Svanir, EoD page 221 – this implies that their human appearance is little different from Bear Form, Raven Form, etc. (also implying it’s not their natural form, but rather a preferred/comfortable form – also take note that there are NPCs in GW2 which are permanently in Bear Form, including the “Talking Bear” in the Rata Sum prison, indicating that unlike mechanics, Bear Form can indeed be permanent as well as the others).

While possible, I don’t see it happening, and Drakkar is more of what I’d expect an amphibious dragon to look like (though not exactly).

Thalador.4218:

Timeline: Kryta was established as a colony of Elona in 300 AE, but 58 years later it gained independence. We don’t know whether it seceded peacefully or through war, the fact that it did must have created a tension between the two nations for some time. Thing is, there has been a war between Elona and Kryta in Thorn’s time:

“The Mad King shall return to Elona shortly. I do not believe he bears a grudge against the Elonian people for what happened to his bride all those years ago, nor the decades long war that followed.” – http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Horseman_Jaysin

Uh, nothing – as far as I recall at the moment, or you provided – states the war was between Elona and Kryta. Just that there was a decades-long war. Though it’s true that there’s no mention of a war during that time (other than being a possible time of the Second Guild War).

Thalador.4218:

Best possible timeframe for Thorn’s rule: somewhere between 452 AE – 640 AE. Approximately 100 years after the secession of Kryta, the Scarab Plague swept through Elona (mostly Istan) and resulted in the end of the Primeval Dynasty. First Admun Kolos establishes his Great Dynasty, then, after its fall, the Shattered Dynasty Era begins (and with it, a bloody civil war called the Pretender Wars).

Personally, I’d place Joko’s reign somwehere in this period as well. He could easily have been one of the last kings (or the last himself) of the Primeval Dynasty, a ruler descended from Admun Kolos, or a pretender of shattered dynasty. However, there’s still some more points before the final conclusion, so I’m not going to detail it further here. (I know it’s rather messy, but it’s quite difficult to present these thoughts without referencing back and forth. At the end everything will be much clearer.

Given this, I’d probably link Thorn to the end of the Grand Dynasty – the “decades long war” could be the Pretender Wars quite easily – perhaps Thorn could have been bothered by these wars because his marriage made him a “rightful” ruler of somewhere in Elona, but the wars prevented that.

Though this is for his lifetime not his death date which the 500 years refers to. He could have been like Doric, living over 100 years. Though that’d imply the 500 years was a typo of 600 or 700 years.

Termites don’t need to be linked to the Scarab Plague – it may be due to his head being a pumpkin – a port-mortem fear.

Mechos.5640:

And, though I hate to bring it up, there is that one Sylvari commander during the Gates of Arah event that becomes an undead. Whether he’s meant to or not, it’s hard to say.

I’ve followed through this, however I never saw a sylvari turning into an undead. There’s one sylvari there, and not a commander at that.

But it’s likely a model oversight, because it’s quite solidly stated in lore – as said already – that sylvari are immune to all corruption.

Mechos.5640:

Either way, I don’t think it would be implausible to think that Sylvari could become ghosts; heck, we see that inanimate objects (trebuchets, cannons, weapons) can become spirits.

Those inanimte objects are more likely the similar situation to a ghosts’ clothing or weapons. They’re not spirits of objects, but rather ectoplasm turned into the shape of objects. Well, that’s my take on it at least, given that we don’t see a ghostly catapult going “Hey, you fleshling there! I’m gonna kill you!”

Garenthal.1480:

They’re not immune to all corruption, though. There’s even a Sylvari who is encountered in Orr who goes mad as a result of torment at the hands of the Risen, or more specifically an Eye of Zhaitan.

That’s not dragon corruption. That’s called having a mental breakdown. (Though I don’t know where this sylvari is).

The Nightmare Court is completely separate from dragon corruption as well.

When I said sylvari are immune to all corruption, allow me to rephrase it: all sylvari are immune to all dragon corruption.

Kain Francois.4328:

I don’t recall a Risen Sylvari even though I had done Gates of Arah many times.

Please clarify the specifics so I can see it ingame?

During the meta event – if the Gates of Arah are lost, the allies become risen. One of which being a sylvari who’s name is retained.

Thing is, if I’m remembering the name correctly, when I went there that name was for a human, not a sylvari.

Pay closer attention to my meaning of the words – I mean, in a year, they will be cheaper. Why? Because people will have obtained them.

If you farm all of the items, irregardless of time since they’ve been around it’ll take the same amount of time. However, in a year people will have farmed them – both with the intention of using them, and with the intention of selling them. Thus, those who want them enough to farm will have them, but those who wouldn’t farm them in full will have easier access to either the weapons directly, or more importantly to the items required to get them – the only thing they’d have to farm, as I said, is karma and MoH – which doesn’t take a year. If people are actively going towards it, focusing on just karma and MoH will take only a few months.

A chinese dragon style would relate Jormag to Kuunavang which I doubt will happen.

Mursaat lookittentle like Diablo angels. There was a comment, I once saw, with them being said to look like mursaat – this was due to the supposed connection between Caudecus and the White Mantle, a cult who worshiped the mursaat. Those things actually look nothing like mursaat and… I don’t think there was a consensus of them looking like mursaat, actually.

Edit: Okay, text oddity: “lookittentle” should be “look” and “little” – apparently Anet decided to sensor a misspelling of a word irregardless of spaces between letters?

I don’t know what you mean by “obviously” not having faces. We never see under their masks – and I wouldn’t use concept art designed for those BMP books where the art for the storybooks lookittentle like actual mursaat as proof (they were likely designed from an in-universe perspective).

My necromancer has, roughly, 40k karma, and I don’t proactively do events, and I spread my play across 8 characters (necro being only character above level 40 – at 80). Across all characters I probably have 60-70k karma. This is after roughly 2 months play, and I don’t really consider myself to be in the upper tier of proactive players (I’m probably more active on the forums than in game). You need 525,000 karma per weapon – in a year, this is very feasible if you’re saving up for a legendary weapon, even for average gamers. With the money gained during that time, if not outright farming, you’d easily be able to get a majority of the items needed for legendaries. People already have a number of them, and the recipies are laid out for one and all so there’s no guessing on how to make them – the only uncertainty at the moment is the precursor weapons.

So within a year’s time, I would be surprised to see a legendary over 100g (that is actually worth it). In 3 year’s time, I’d be surprised if they’re, by demand, over 75g. Their price will of course remain high due to the effort and cost of all the items to make them, but they’ll eventually go down quite a lot, and in time they’ll be at a similar price to exotics.

Even the dungeon runs isn’t that hard (with 60 per run, you can get the 500 tokens after 9 runs – getting 540 tokens). The hardest part would really just be the 250 ectos, I’d imagine, or the lodestones of whichever kind you need. But with all the farming you’d have to do for the karma and Medals of Honor (which can be done at the same time – or farming Kamra while farming the other materials), you’re bound to get a lot of rares and exotics as well, which you can either sell or salvage in order to get (funding or directly) ecto.

Even for average gamers, if you schedule it out and are only after legendaries, it’s relatively simple to obtain – just will take a while. But after a year, these things will definitely be easier, with all the ingredients being far cheaper and thus feasible to simply buy – then all you’d need to farm, really, would be karma and MoH.

But sylvari are immune to all corruption – it isn’t just that they can’t become risen.

Truth be told, we don’t even know if sylvari have souls, I believe. I don’t think we see a single case where a sylvari ghost has appeared.

If I were able to find that interview, I would have linked it. >.<

Glint didn’t have her own will still – they had self-thought, but they’re all still fanatic followers (to varying degrees depending on strength and Elder Dragon) of their master. It’s not so much of a spell-binding thing but more or a restricted will. (This from what I’ve seen of the forgotten magic in Arah explorable dungeon – the forgotten used a spell to give Glint her own will, and based off of Glint from Edge of Destiny, being able to read the minds of those she killed led her to betray Kralkatorrik – the combination of the two allowed her to leave Kralkatorrik’s forces).

It’s only speculative that Jormag is a reference to Jörmungandr (a strong one though), especially given Jormungand in GW1 (Anet rarely has multiple references on something so exact – though not impossible). But the concept behind the two is more or less the same anyways – Elder Dragon, World Serpent; Jörmungandr has poisonous saliva, Elder Dragons corrupt with their breath (supposedly); etc.

Those aren’t mursaat paintings, btw. They look nothing like mursaat either. It’s a painting version of their “demon totems” (a skull-headed scarecrow, more or less). Now I’m no longer sure what you’re referring to, since the Son of Svanir painting is definitely near the Dragon Clan grawl…

It’s possible, but since as Bruno said, the Sovereign Eye says the same for the sylvari Sieran, I doubt that he was telling the truth.

Kain Francois.4328:

What do the Skritt, Ogres, Quaggan, Hylek, and other minor races contribute though? I’ve sometimes seen Ogres helping the assault on Arah but never else.

Scavenging, man power (and pet power!), aquatic reconsecrate (no need for aqua breathers), aquatic reconnaissance and alchemical concoctions (in one of the sylvari storylines – the blossom is brother to the weed – the hylek have access to the Zelisco plant, which has extracts that can be made into anti-undead poison).

Source on the Great Destroyer leeching powers from Primordus, please. I’ve never seen hide nor hair of this.

We do not fight destroyers of mursaat and jotun. Keep in mind that destroyers are created to mimic life (though this is less so in GW1). I suppose you can claim that the mesmers were mimicing mursaat, however I’d consider that to be more likely a case of re-used resources, as the only similarity really is that they use the same model frame – but to claim a relation because of that is like claiming a relation between Stone Rains of the Echovald Forest and the paragon Margonites and Khilbron because they all use the same model frame and animations. Though all things considered, the initial destroyers very well were likely based off of life of Primordus’ last awakening.

I don’t know what frozen statues you refer to that look like the Great Destroyer. Which, yes, he was indeed a small dragon, just as other ED-made dragon champions are. Including the Shatterer which is most definitely not fossils. It’s outright stated that destroyers mimic life, being created solely from stone and lava – we even can read how they’re made in Edge of Destiny (when fighting the Destroyer of Life).

My “points” that make no sense are directly from the game lore. Also, please provide a source stating that dragons cannot consume power while they’re sleeping. Here’s my proof: “They believed they were drawing upon the ancient voice, but in fact it was drawing upon them, gaining the power to rise. And it did rise. One of the Elder Dragons. Jormag was its name.” – Edge of Destiny, page 221 – this was done through Drakkar, as Jeff Grubb explained through Stephane Lo Presti (sadly, due to Guru2’s reformatting the post was lost! Q_Q)

On the ED waking due to empty bellies: “But three hundred years ago, the dragons’ bellies were empty, and their minds were awakening.” – Edge of Destiny, page 340

I did pay attention to what the Soverieng Eye of Zhaitan said. I did not ignore the fact that Zhaitan had his minions going through to repeatedly stop the Pact. Again, however, the more important minions (Mouth of Zhaitan, Eyes of Zhaitan, the dragons themselves) are more intelligent and, as said command lesser minions – it’s not that the lesser minions are just as smart so they guard their leaders, it’s that their leaders are commanding them to be guards! It appears the same, but trust me it’s not. And this – that lesser minions aren’t as intelligent – is outright stated in game. Please re-read through the dialogue here – to quote the more important bits: “I would be surprised if Zhaitan even bothers with controlling its lesser minions. They do nothing but destroy.” “These seem to be more powerful. They also hold a larger quantity of magic. More of Zhaitan’s will, perhaps?” “Indeed, these creatures are acting with more self-will! Zhaitan’s infused them with tremendous energy.”

The more energy Zhaitan infuses unto the risen, the more powerful they are and the more self-will they have. As such, the lesser minions are not “just as bright as every other” (well, maybe as every other lesser minion!). This means that even if a minions looks the same, it might not necessarily be the same!

So I’m sorry, but you’re getting the bloody opposite out of these sources! The champions can and do indeed use the power of their Elder Dragon in EoD, but it’s also explicitly stated that – at least in the case of Jormag, the one champion which does use its ED’s power – they gave their ED power to rise. And Magic Sucks (among other sources, really, from interviews to other events and personal story steps) show how minions are made and, in turn, how intelligent they become from how they’re made!

[quote=482143;BrunoBRS.5178:some food for thought regarding Jormag’s appearance: in the great lodge, his tooth is actually called “Serpent’s Tooth”. this could imply, as was raised in this thread as a possibility, that Jormag is more serpent-like.

also, on frostgorge sound, there are some Jormag-worshipping grawls, and they’d make paintings that are supposed to represent Jormag. grawls being grawls, it was stupid, but they were drawing long, squiggly and straight lines. then again, i’m not convinced those grawls (or the sons of svanir that make dragon paintings everywhere) have ever seen Jormag. however, the tooth of jormag was brought by someone alive, someone who saw him, took his tooth off, and walked away with it. someone who described Jormag as a serpent.

so there, speculate away.[/quote]Those “grawl” paintings are used by Sons of Svanir as well (as well as being in other places with graffiti – Anet has only 3 sets of “cave paintings” – all used by grawl, but also used in sometimes completely irrelevant locations as well).

I wouldn’t doubt Jormag turns to be more serpentine, but those “paintings” seem more like a reference/easter egg to the possible origin of Jormag’s name: Jörmungandr

If you want to get technical though, dragons are often called serpents – winged and legged serpents, particularly. I think this originates from Norse mythos, though I’m not certain, and was even continued into Christianity (the story of Adam and Eve – where Satan appears as a snake, he’s first something else – sometimes as a winged serpent, sometimes as a legged serpent; this is possibly due to Christianity’s affect on other mythologies which in turn influenced their own (calling other mythos’ “good guys” as demons of various kinds etc. – don’t wanna get into a religious debate on this though). So the representation and calling Jormag a “serpent” may just be references/easter eggs/inspirations of Norse mythos.

Not saying Jormag can’t be serpentine, just that it’s not entirely unlikely he isn’t.

I hope that they add more legendaries into the game eventually – after a year, we all know these legendaries are going to be fairly cheap, probably little more than exotics, since everyone’s after them – they’ll become like the GW1 Tomb of the Primeval Kings greens, I fear.

If more are added, I hope for some more story-related already-in-lore Legendaries. Caladbolg, Magdaer, and Scepter of Orr are your greatsword, sword, and staff right there (Caladbolg already has fancy effects, what with petals falling as its swung – Magdaer has a unique skin when it’s in the stone of Ascalonian Catacombs, looking like an FDS-version of the Arah dungeon weapons)! Just no super-awesome powers, obviously.

But if more legendaries are added, I hope that they become increasingly difficult to obtain since the same situation as before will rise. Rather than increasingly easy like GW1 greens (and of course, slowly added).

Ah, but, yeah, some lore behind these “legendary weapons” would be nice. There’s also the legendaries obtained via WvW too (Mist Walker armor, for instance).

Kralkatorrik never turned into clouds… clouds and lightning formed around him. He turned into a sandstorm (or rather, a billion grains of sand) though.

On Drakkar/Jormag – there’s 3 NPCs that I’ve seen saying Jormag awoke from within/beneath Drakkar Lake, however I’m going to trust the interviews, direct intervention on Jeff Grubb’s part, and comment in the Making of Guild Wars 2 stating that Drakkar and Jormag are two separate entities. Especially since we have other NPCs being wrong (either intentionally or not) – such as calling Almorra Soulkeeper a former Tribune (she was a Legionnaire)..

That’s kinda like asking why there are suddenly Pinipals or Colocals. Or where the non-raptor dinosaurs went.

Best explanation is that Anet wanted “more wildlife” and “less wildlife” – since their sudden appearance/disappearance isn’t brought up, it’s likely to just be a retcon like how the Losaru of GW1 got changed from looking like Tyrian centaurs to looking like Elonian centaurs.

@Mystic Starfish: It only says “gargoyles” because this is what we’re told by wording – however, mergoyles are merely aquatic (looking?) gargoyles.

Obviously, Doern was a conquistador in the Aztec lands of Utopia.

BrunoBRS.5178:

believe what you want

This is pretty much what I have to say to you. Once again, and I’ll make this post short so you can see it:

Concept art cinematics are done with exaggeration in order to make them look better. As such, it won’t always make perfect sense.

Mind you, this argument can go both ways, however, the differences between the teal/light green dragon and the two blue dragons (the latter being Glint for certainty) is, imho, far too great a difference.

BrunoBRS.5178:

characters change looks between concept art all the time. just look at old art of caithe, or look at the different concept arts representing zhaitan.

This is a null argument. Yes, characters do indeed change between various concept art – however, Glint’s look was finalized over 6 years ago. Zhaitan’s and Caithe’s looks were finalized during development of GW2 – they were re-imagined during development, which is why they were changed. Glint, was not.

BrunoBRS.5178:

second, that’s not the jade sea.

Yes, actually, it is – the name comes from the artist himself . If the person who made the image doesn’t know what it is, then he must be a bigger fool than the dumbest idiot. I don’t think he is.

BrunoBRS.5178:

as for the guild wars 1 shot […]unless you mean to say that my character’s armor wasn’t blue when i took this shot (hint, it is, and i have pictures to prove it).

GW1 and GW2’s lighting systems are vastly different. Perhaps the image was of poor quality, but I distinctly remember that it is NOT black. Perhaps I am using the wrong word to describe the color – I am not one to caring about color shades, after all – but it is most definitely a silver-ish (that is to say, somewhere along the mixture of blue and grey spectrum of color – more on the grey side, IMO) in color. Lighter than Glint, and certainly not black.

There were likely some parts that were black, but certainly – by far – not the whole. And I cannot, at all, agree that color of Kralkatorrik’s exposed body is “black.”

BrunoBRS.5178:

which reminds me, konig has to be the first person i’ve ever seen describing kralkatorrik as teal. and if we’re going to use concept art as argument, well… this is definitely not teal, and this is unquestionably kralkatorrik

To use your own argument against you: characters change during development. That is, perhaps, the oldest concept art of Kralkatorrik. It’s vastly different than what’s seen in-game in GW1, in size, shape, and color.

BrunoBRS.5178:

in my perfect world, kralkatorrik would look exactly like this mysterious concept art that’s supposedly official.

I can agree with wanting Kralk to look like that.

However, it’s not GW2 art. It was art Kekai Kotaki made for himself in his free time. Same with the other epic dragon artwork of his. And other things I’d wish to be GW2 concept art…

As for Jormag and Primordus’ looks – I’m hoping Jormag’s a bit like Drakkar who also seems aquatic/amphibious, while Primordus I expect to be wingless and more serpentine (a thin dragon, since he’s underground).

Narcemus.1348:

When I mentioned Janthir I was talking about the Eye of Janthir, not the island.

Right…

“because their civilization would not be located in Tyria” – except that the Eye of Janthir came from the Isles of Janthir – this is known. What’s not known is the extent of relation between Janthir (either isles or eye) to the mursaat. The thing could be a remnant of seer civilization that the mursaat claimed as spoils of war, and the Isles of Janthir being the old seer homeland.

Narcemus.1348:

And I understand that the mursaat were powerless as it comes to spectral agony against the titans, but the humans were easily just as powerless, since they never had spectral agony in the first place, and even though you repel the attacks against Droknar’s and the Henge of Denravi, you get to the North Kryta Province one right after the titans had already attacked, so it makes less sense to me that the humans were able to muster similar armies as the mursaat had in Mineral Springs, but the humans succeeded where the mursaat failed.

Mursaat are fairly powerless against humans when their Spectral Agony’s not useful.

It’s like a game of paper-scissors-rock. Just because one side is good against a second, doesn’t mean it will be against the third. This is the case with the human-mursaat-titan situation. And remove the weakness that humans have to mursaat….

I’m sorry, but that’s wrong. Dragon champions were giving their respective Elder Dragon power in order to wake up – it’s the opposite of what you claim (that minions give magic to sustain their rage/put them to sleep). It is indeed to feed them, which in turn makes them stronger as they have more magic. It is not to put them back to sleep – the only reason why they went to sleep previously is because they ran out of food, not because they were satiated.

And we all know what happens when their bellies empty – they wake up. That’s why they’re waking up now (at least according to Glint).

I have seen nothing which claims Primordus takes fossils. Instead, what he does is he takes lava and rock to make destroyers. The area around him isn’t so because of Primordus – as far as we know, at least. There’s never an outright explanation for why the area around Primordus is a lava pit; however, given that Vekk showed no surprise to the lava being there, it’s highly likely that it’s always been there even before the Great Destroyer (and thus Primordus’ corruption) returned.

“For short dragons power isnt influenced by minions at all, minions only sate their hunger/how much they rely on the more basic instincts and how fast theyll go back to sleep.”

Besides how I’ve already stated that you are, in fact, wrong about the sleeping part, imagine what would happen if you’re starving. Starve long enough and you become weaker. This is exactly what I meant by killing minions = weakening the Elder Dragons. They gain less food, and thus they have less magic to use. Less magic to use means less power. It’s logical deduction, and not very hard to grasp.

Energy in of itself is not corruption. Draconic energy – which is unique to the Elder Dragons – however is.

Your statement on Elder Dragon mentality is self-contradicting by the way. Working solely off of instincts in of itself means not being smart. Instincts are natural reflexes – something that’s done without thought. So to act with only instinct means to act without thought. Yet you say the ED can be smart (and crocodiles too) – but if they only use instincts, this is not so.

Also, Zhaitan doesn’t have direct control over every single minion. How it’s done is that the intelligence level of minions depends on – in the case for Zhaitan at least – how much corrupted magic Zhaitan puts back into the corpse to make a minion. The more corrupted magic put in, the more intelligence and “free will” (that is to say, independency) the minion has. The less corrupted magic put in, the less intelligence there is. As such, those with more intelligence orders those mindless zerg-mimicing minions around. It’s not Zhaitan ordering everything to kill all only to be contradicted by the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan – it’s that Zhaitan knows everything his minions know, and that all minions work in the favor of Zhaitan, those who “kill everything” are just that much less intelligent.

(The intelligence level of minions is confirmed during one of the OoW storylines – going to get Gorr’s help after Claw Island; the champions ordering lesser minions comes from an interview; ED waking up due to empty bellies is from Edge of Destiny; so is the dragon champions giving their masters energy to wake up)

As WoA said, she was indeed a Legionnaire. She was serving under a Centurion at the time Kralkatorrik awoke. In GoA and various interviews, she’s called Legionnaire – I believe even herself says she was a Legionnaire. Only 2 NPCs call her a former Tribune (which is a higher rank than Centurion).

Janthir is an island, not the mursaat civilization. Don’t mix the two up.

The titans weren’t actively after the mursaat – keep that in mind. In Prophecies, it’s actually the players who wipe out the majority of the mursaat. The titans, under the orders of Khilbron, simply cleaned up the remnants.

As to the titans being able to overpower mursaat – I suspect it deals with spectral agony. The name in of itself implies that the skill causes pain to the soul. The Eidolon are creatures born of “malice and hate” and appear spectral; titans themselves are created from tormented spirits. They both seem to be immune (if not resistant) to the mursaat’s primary weapon. Once you bypass Spectral Agony, mursaat are actually fairly squishy. And it should be kept in mind that the titan quests imply a lot of heavy casualties from the titans.

@Andele: You apparently didn’t read my entire posts:

The Elder Dragons – or at least Zhaitan – feed through their minions. You kill their minions, you remove their food source, you starve them, they become weaker. Though the Mouth of Zhaitan was the “main eater” for this, they’re not the only ones – Zhaitan, who devours magic, takes magic from objects and things. This is how he corrupts.

As to seeping magic – take note that the asura, who had extensive dealings with Primrodus, never showed signs of corruption nor did they even realize that the destroyers situated themselves at Primordus. This means that, while Primordus was indeed seeping magic out, said seeping magic did NOT corrupt. Same goes for Kralkatorrik in the north, or Zhaitan in Orr – the charr didn’t have an issue with branded prior to Kralkatorrik’s awakening, and Orr never had undead problems (until the Cataclysm).

So their presence does not automatically corrupt. They have to actively corrupt things.

Also, the asura gates being powered by Primordus also show that draconic energies in of themselves do not corrupt. Otherwise the entire gate network would have been a destroyer-making factory.

And to make a bit of a correction: the entire “punchline” as you put it is from the perspective of the races of Tyria – the Elder Dragons are very much intelligent. And you’d see this if you paid attention to the personal story, in how Zhaitan shows more and more intelligence starting after Claw Island.

Unless the stone gargoyles had a similar calling to the stone dwarves to fight Primordus after he awoke, which in of itself is imo unlikely, there’s no relation between the gargoyle’s disappearance and the Elder Dragons’ awakening.

Gargoyles disappeared in 1185 AE. From both Ascalon and Kryta.
Zhaitan rose in 1219 AE, in Orr – that’s 34 years later
Jormag rose in 1165 AE, north of the Far Shiverpeaks – that’s 20 years earlier.

Both Zhaitan and Jormag show no relation to events in Ascalon, and Jormag shows no relation to the events in Kryta. It’s unlikely either is related to the gargoyles, and if Primordus/Kralkatorrik is, why a nearly 70/120 (respectively) year gap between their awakening and the gargoyle’s disappearance?

I think too many people are trying to relate too many things to the Elder Dragons – which is actually the opposite of what ArenaNet said they want to do (make their stories “wider” and not “deeper” – that is to say, not connect everything together making a deeper plot) – and in fact, they do what they said they wanted to do (bandits, centaurs, Ascalonian ghosts, ogres, and so forth aren’t tied to Elder Dragons).