Guild Wars 2

@Narc: That image doesn’t show the blue, which is at the bottom of what’s viewable (it’s a grayish blue at that).

@Bruno: I’m sorry, but there’s this thing called distance – it makes things look smaller. Furthermore, it looks nothing like Glint – it’s too smooth, and Glint isn’t teal, she’s a darker blue (like in the first image), she has a beard (not present), and furthermore about the “flying vs standing” bit – the cinematic, like all other concept art cinematics, are exaggurated for the intention of being artistic and appearing better. In that very cinematic, you have an image of Destiny’s Edge fighting on the Jade Sea (the green waves) and in the Crystal Desert – they never did the former, and they were only in the desert to fight Glint/Kralkatorrik. Furthermore, in the Ascalonian Catacombs Ascalon City is shown as circular – it isn’t. And the 3 cinematics with Zhaitan (Durmand Priory intro, Battle of Fort Trinity, and Arah), Zhaitan looks nothing like in-game. Things won’t be 100% accurate all things considered, but there’s enough differences between Glint and the teal dragon to say safely that it is, in fact, not Glint.

And the color between the first and second shot of Kralkatorrik is not that different – take note that the entire scene is also darker. What does teal look in a darker environment but green, the color of the second shot? Furthermore, the image of when Glint’s dead is, once more, darker blue. Just as she is the first time she’s shown. And as to the head’s size’s difference (which in of itself goes against your argument of flying vs standing!), that’s Kralkatorrik far closer to Destiny’s Edge than the previous image (I wouldn’t call him black there either, considering that’s shadow – he’s actually light green in darkness there).

As to your comment on Caithe’s line – “we stood beside Glint, ready to face an Elder Dragon” – they were facing towards the teal dragon.

The scene where Glint’s dead is the only real strong point you have – but also note how she’s blue there, not teal nor any shade of green. Blue.

Unless you’re saying Glint can change colors from blue to a shade of green at will. (The lack of the beard can be decided to have been done to show some battle damage – the teal dragon is prior to the battle, whereas Glint dead is obviously after. If one wants to get technical, the dead Glint is missing the fang marks where Kralkatorrik bit into her or how her neck was broken yet it looks fine there).

To the GW1 shot, then you should go into GW1 (if you have it) and look for yourself. It’s not black except where shadows are (e.g., not where “the sun’s reflections” are – which would show black if Kralkatorrik truly was black, even if it were reflections, cuz the reflections would just be brightness).

Lantyssa.6723:

The Sons of Svanir revere Jormag, but they would have revered any elder dragon that showed up in their territory because they are all massively powerful forces.

I wouldn’t be so certain of that. Keep in mind that Jormag’s all about strength and promising such even prior to corrupting individuals. That’s how he gains minions – he entices individuals with promises of power to win them over.

The reason the Sons of Svanir revere Jormag isn’t because he’s strong, but because he can make them strong as well – or so they believe (and he promises).

I disagree with creating a second form of the persistent zones, as that divides the players too much IMO.

I would say that instanced areas (personal story and dungeons currently) could use a hard mode version though. And it’d be easily done too.

Kralkatorrik does indeed bleed, however, I don’t know of any creature of typical flesh and bone who’s blood crystallizes.

It’s like saying sylvari bleed, therefore it’s flesh and bone… nah, cuz they bleed sap, but they have wood not bones.

But still, given how low the ruins of LA are, if they were the same level as in GW1 then most of Gendarran Fields should be flodded – far more than the appearance of Lake Gendarr (aka the little Giant’s Basin) does.

Well the asura scholar studying the mursaat in Arah explorable mode, says that they fled the world. So it seems they went into the Mists – where in the Mists is unknown.

Though this brings up an interesting thought to me: a while ago, there was a large discussion on the “alchemy circle” – a design that was on Prophecies backgrounds – in lore this is a map of the Mists made by Lord Odran. Here is the image:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/disconected/guildwars/Alchemy_light.jpg

Take note of one of the symbols – a triangle with a design in it, possibly… an eye. Familiar?

Perhaps the mursaat went to another world, one which Odran found, and through him they learned Tyria was safe from the Elder Dragons and returned.

Their fear of the titans would likely come from the Flameseeker Prophecies, foretelling the extinction of their race on Tyria (a puppetmaster plot by Glint to remove them, perhaps because they nearly wiped out the seers and fled the Elder Dragons, leaving the other races to become corrupted – Glint may have feared them doing the same when the ED were to reawake, something she knew would be inevitable). Considering that the titans are said to be as old as the forgotten, and the seers had past experience with them “eons” prior to GW1, it’s possible the mursaat also had past experience with the titans and knew that the prophecies could come to pass – thus they worked to prevent them and inevitably created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Karast.1927:

We also know that Dwarfs are not all dedicated to the same cause, cultural rifts did form in the society, the Stone summit dwarfs being the key example.

False. After Eye of the North, the Stone Summit disbanded and rejoined Deldrimor (go to Dredgehaunt Cliffs – specifically the Granite Citadel). When Primordus awoke, all remaining dwarves underwent the Rite of the Great Dwarf (turning to stone) and went into the depths.

While there are Deldrimor artifacts in the Jade Sea of Cantha, there’s no indication of dwarves outside continental Tyria. Furthermore, it’s heavily implied that the calling to undergo the Rite of the Great Dwarf (it was a literal calling where dwarves felt compelled to undergo the rite) was racial – meaning all dwarves did such, not just Deldrimor dwarves.

So it’s extremely unlikely we’ll see un-stoned dwarves. It’s also unlikely, imo, for there to be dwarves outside Tyria. But not impossible.

@bruno: It’s the lighting He’s blue(ish)

Yes, that’s the cutscene, but there’s actually 2 images of Kralkatorrik (other than him flying). 3:14 is Kralkatorrik – note that it’s teal, and lacks Glint’s “beard” which are in the other two images. If you don’t want to try to find the scene – there’s this

@Narcemus: I can see gray, but it’s very much also having blue at the lower parts (under the “shell”) – and where does it say that’s his back? :P

Furthermore, for Jormag, it’s implied by the kodan in Frostgorge Sound that he’s aquatic (they were fighting him before having to flee south in their Sanctuaries, and they are only now getting accustomed to land – and don’t like it). It’ll be hard to fight an aerial battle with no land for miles around – the amount of time to get to Jormag, and then the risk of falling into the water being trapped by, more than likely, thousands of fish-based icebrood. Or having to go with a naval battle instead…

While they are all Elder Dragons, they are also very different. Their appearance is different, how they corrupt is different, their environment is different. More than likely their weaknesses will be different too (burning works against risen, whereas chopping them up is less effective – I doubt that’s so for destroyers who are immune to burning!).

So the easy button for Zhaitan can easily be tossed aside by writing “it doesn’t work against the other Elder Dragons” – though now I’m picturing the entire Pact forces working on the laser, thinking “one good aim will kill Kralkatorrik,” they fire the laser and… it’s reflected by Kralkatorrik’s crystals, shot back at them.

There’s also the fact that the ruins of Lion’s Arch seem to have sunk – that is, they possibly were pushed towards the sea at some point (weaker foundations? draw back from tsunami?). Keep in mind that in GW1, Lion’s Arch wasn’t surrounded by cliffs.

Furthermore, in the Prophecies manual it’s “forest” rather than “jungle.”

Considering the name Rata Sum is of asuran origin, the anagram for that (even ignoring the bigger stretch of Riven Earth=Thrive Near in relation to the Rata Sum one) is more than likely purely easter egg; that is to say, not in lore. Instead, the only real evidence for the mursaat being based in the Maguuma would be the Ullen River and Old Joness’ dialogue from GW1.

However, the issue with this is that in GW2 we can explore the unexplored part of the Maguuma which hinted at the mursaat’s presence and there are no special ruins – just hylek. But 250 years can change things.

But another debunker for the mursaat being in the Maguuma is the Arah dungeon – where the NPC says the mursaat “only returned recently” as the Unseen Ones – indicating that they had been gone for roughly 11,000 years since they fled from the Elder Dragons – though this is mostly hypothetical.

Except that Snow Leopard Form don’t have horns, or four ears, and never has clothing (norn forms cover clothing).

Interspecies relations likely exist, even when not drunk. However, it’s probably like homosexuality outside of the sylvari – exists and is rare, but not something to brag about (though not looked down upon either).

ReginWoods.8573:

I believe that, for some reason, Gargoyles were drawn towards Kralkatorrik. This could be because they are crystalline type creatures and are the minions of Kralkatorrik.

Issue is twofold:

Gargoyles are stone, not crystal.

Kralkatorrik was still asleep when the gargoyles disappeared (over a century difference).

Thorn was a human king that lived around or after the time of 300 AE. Menzies is Balthazar’s half-brother (indicating he might be a half-god like Grenth was originally). Furthermore, Menzies is an ally of Dhuum – an enemy of Thorn.

I want to make a few corrections:

1) Grenth did not revenge his father. This is player speculation.
2) The Shadow Army having the White Mantle symbol is irrelevant. They’ve been confirmed to be unrelated. Furthermore, even if there was a connection, the White Mantle are enemies of the royal family which Thorn is of.
3) Thorn does not celebrate Nightfall. He celebrates Halloween (known to Tyrians as Mad King’s Day). Nightfall was a prophecized event in which Abaddon was to return and break free from his prison – a one time event, not yearly like Mad King’s Day.

The species’ wiki page: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Treant

There isn’t much known on them sadly. We only know that they’re sentient mobile trees, and what they use for fertilizer for their young. Beyond that, it’s a mystery still.

There’s four kinds of treants in the world: Oakhearts, Pinesouls, Mossheart, and… can’t recall the name of the fourth kind, but they’re modeled after Weeping Willow trees. Druids, formerly humans, shed their skins and became like the last treants – before becoming spectral (the “Abhorrent Spirit”s found in Brisban Wildlands are the druid spirits).

In GW1, it’s "shown"http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unnatural_Growths that plants are made sentient from magical concentrations – which is why the Maguuma has so many, since there’s a bloodstone there. In Twilight Arbor, Faolain is said to be cultivating a “Nightmare Tree” (which is basically a giant treant).

There’s been speculations that Ewan and his tribe were the first treants, given the scriptures of Melandru.

Narcemus.1348:

Also Konig, I don’t remember ever hearing the description of what color he was, only what color the dragon’s blood was. Also the golden aspect was his breath, with which he corrupted living beings.

Sorrow’s Embrace cinematic shows Kralkatorrik up close, mind you in concept art – he’s teal/light blue.

Furthermore, we see him in light blue during GW1, in the Charr Homelands.

Bard.7215:

As for the sage thing, that doesn’t do anything with my argument, you just basically spoiled a lot for me because apparently you thought I was questioning your knowledge on dragons being associated with magic… Really wasn’t necessary, you could have just said you already know the connection between Dragons and Magic…

The Entire reason for this argument, as you know.. is to question dragons of elements not yet covered, indicated by what magic has been shown to manipulate.. which would leave nature, light and Choas left, because leaving it on the footnote of nature dragon, while also dividing ice from water.. leaves ALOT left over sitting around.

Don’t know what “sage thing” you mean that I mentioned, but one thing to worry about when reading lore forums is “you will be spoiled in the plot (most likely)” though the only thing I spoiled is in relation to one dungeon’s explorable mode (no plot spoiling, just lore spoiling) – but still sorry.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i’m just going by the description i remember from destiny’s edge, and the whole “one with the storm, black storm and golden eyes” stuff stuck. plus, you can see part of him in GW1, on those black mountains.

He’s light blue in GW1… there’s nothing black around him.

And the storms he creates are not him. :p

I believe I recall mention that said signets are of Orrian origins – they are effectively the same as your standard fantasy signets – rings and other stones that were imbued with limited-use magical spells.

@Narcemus: Considering the Elder Dragons are “more magical than physical” I’d assume that they use a mixture of magic and physical force to fly (Zhaitan was crippled by 2 wings on the same side being damaged, so it’s not pure magical force).

@BrunoBRS: Except he wasn’t? The shot cut off 2 tails (including 1 set of wings), and he was still moving about easily. It was the second set of beams, which damaged, as I said above, 2 wings on one side, that prevented him from flying. And even after that, he was pummeled by anti-dragon cannons.

The initial laser actually did very little to him.

If they could even make an army of those lasers, then you’re correct, however we have no indication of how expensive they are – a few personal story steps prior to Victory or Death, you get lines indicating that it’s taking a lot of effort and resources to create the Glory of Tyria – meaning that they won’t go about creating a fleet of them.

I don’t expect to see the Glory of Tyria return for the other Elder Dragons – especially Primordus, since you can’t fly airships of that size in underground tunnels.

I’ve already denoted in my previous post about the lake of the Isles of Janthir or Janthir Bay – as well as the inland sea made by Jormag (there’s also not much water for the arctic sea to be). It’s likely that northern Tyria is unexplored by the Order of Whispers and thus poorly detailed.

As for the Battle Isles – keep in mind that the land of the isles didn’t lower, but they were merely affected by the tidal wave. It’s likely that they resurfaced afterwards and, in fact, I’d be surprised if this wasn’t the case. Also take note that Cantha’s been changed, and there’s implication that the Whispers has contact with Canthans.

Or they’re in the Woodland Cascades – never explored to us, but pretty close to where Saul was when he was sentenced to exile (makes more sense to exile him to the north, than going through all of Kryta to exile him into the Maguuma like people think). It’s also fairly close to the Isles of Janthir, which holds relations to the White Mantle (and possibly the mursaat).

Strang.8170:

Blood legion homelands are north of ascalon i think?

The land north of Ascalon are indeed called “Blood Legion Homelands” however:

“East, across the Blazeridge Mountains, Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer controls the lands of the Blood Legion.”

Did Fahranur really have a ritual though? I only recall that being where the ritual scrolls were found. Everything else was caused by the Apocrypha’s awakening and wrecking havoc – but not being a ritual in of itself to weaken the barriers between Tyria and the Realm of Torment.

Never denied such a possibility. Merely stated that Franklin might have false information (this goes double if it turned out that Saul was exiled to the Woodland Cascades, where in there he found the mursaat city).

Narcemus.1348:

There’s no doubt he’s massive, but I don’t believe that he is as large as he’s made out to be in the original concept art. I am excited to see Kralkatorrik when the battle against him commences, cause in the book he is described as a mile at least in 1 direction, can’t remember if it’s head to tail or wingspan.

He’s said to be 1,000 feet tall (which is shorter than a mile) – though it’s not known if this is in relation to him on all fours, or up on his hind legs (I’d imagine the former). Though his wingspan was far far larger (blocking out the sun and all).

Given that size, Zhaitan actually fits the size of an Elder Dragons, I think. The concept art just made him look to be bigger than 1,000 feet tall.

But then again, both of these size measurements (and “20 times larger than Glint”) comes from Edge of Destiny, which made Kralkatorrik seem both tiny and humongous at the same time (how can something only 1,000 feet tall block out the sun?).

BrunoBRS.5178:

hell, tequatl, his champion, takes 2-3 of those lasers to the face during the battle with him on sparkfly fen and still attacks and flies around.

Except that’s 1) a prototype and 2) a far weaker version. The laser in the dungeon was specifically tuned to fight Elder Dragons on Zojja’s designs (which were likely based off of Snaff and Kudu/the Inquest’s studies on the Elder Dragons and their draconic energies). The laser used against Tequatl didn’t have these designs from Zojja – which likely were applied to those golden spray flak cannons.

Lantyssa.6723:

The way I look at the dragons is they are Aspects. While certain elements are frequently associated with professions, things make more sense to me by considering everything being spawned by more abstract forces.

Glint’s trial consisted of Light, Nature, Chaos, Darkness, Elements, and Strength. There is a fairly good correspondence between these and the dragons if viewed as the destructive aspects of these. Similarly the human gods represent these concepts.

That was based on GW1, however. Concepts have evolved and been refined since then. Maybe Elements should really be Knowledge. How I slot things for the moment:

Darkness – Zhaitan – Grenth
Chaos – Kralkatorrik – Lyssa
Knowledge – Deep Sea Dragon – Kormir
Nature – The Nightmare – Melandru
Strength – Primordius – Balthazar
Light – Jormag – Dwayna

For now I consider The Nightmare to be the sixth dragon, and one that has not fully awakened yet. Sylvari fight a plant dragon and it’s thorn hound minions in their dreams, not one of the others. They mistake its form as representing the dragons in general, because they were not aware of a specific there was one of a specific Aspect which was calling to them. It also explains why Sylvari can be turned to Nightmare, be unable to be turned back, yet they’re immune to corruption by the other dragons.

Firstly, nothing relates the facets to the Elder Dragons – instead, those seen in Eye of the North are related to the Six Gods and the forgotten and not the Elder Dragons (that is, we were told that they’re not (directly, at least) related to the ED). They appear to be more akin to the standard avatar, but designed for the forgotten (though that’s somewhat speculative). The relation to the EN facets to the Dragon’s Lair Facets are unknown, though given the same model, similar naming system, and in fact same builds outside the Kormir one (dervish replacing elementalist) would indicate there’s a connection.

However, I’d like to point out that Jormag has no ties to “Light” but instead to Strength (everything about Jormag is about having power and strength). Similarly, the DSD holds nothing of knowledge – to our knowledge – and Kormir’s Facet is in fact Spirit, not Elements or Knowledge.

The DSD is tied to water, instead, which is now governed by Lyssa, though formerly Abaddon. However, there is similarly no ties between Kralkatorrik and chaos.

And as has been stated in this thread a few times, I believe, the plant dragon in the sylvari tutorial is the Dream’s representation of Zhaitan.

BrunoBRS.5178:

well first of all, you have to replace Kormir with Abaddon. the dragons already existed long before Kormir was even born. I’d say the same about Grenth and Dhuum, but their roles are basically the same, whereas (correct me if i am wrong) Dwayna became the goddess of water once Abaddon was cast down.

Lyssa took over water.

BrunoBRS.5178:

then you have kralkatorrik, the storm dragon, who could be associated with air as well as chaos (which we only associate him with because both chaos magic and branded crystals are pink). but kralkatorrik is described as black and golden.

Except that Kralkatorrik is not the “storm dragon” nor is he associated with air. He is the Crystal Dragon. And although, yes, there is lightning in the Dragonbrand and there are indeed Branded Sparks, if you go to Frostgorge Sound there’s quite a lot of lightning around the northern parts which are heavily corrupted/filled with Icebrood – similarly there’s lightning around Zhaitan’s lair in the story mode of Arah.

And Kralkatorrik’s not called black – he’s actually teal.

Well, if you think that necromancers can lay marks that merely manipulates standard ice in a volcanic area (or for that matter, water elementalists doing the same), then I suppose one can indeed argue that they’re using magic to manipulate the elements rather than using magic to create the appearance (and effects) of an element (or alternatively, creating a far more sturdier version of it)! Though I for one have never heard of a small shard of ice lasting very long in a volcanic environment.

Or fire existing underwater.

But hey, it’s magic so it must be able to allow standard regular non-created elements to do such amazing feats!

/semi-sarcasm off

As to the bloodstones. That’s what we were originally told, however this is false. The original Bloodstone, made by the seers, was used to contain non-Elder Dragon (influenced) magic, not control nor filter it. Abaddon then did something to it to grant magic in large amounts to the world. The five gods then in turn shattered it to create the four schools of magic, and in turn also making them filters.

But your relation between dragons and bloodstone magic is, more or less, exactly what I’ve been saying too.

The elements aren’t tied to a profession, nor a school. They’re not tied to anything magical because they simply are not magic-centric. The dragons, while utilizing magic, are more elemental in nature and appearance.

As to the doubts of “magic was ever truly a gift from the human gods” – it’s more of that magic being so widespread and powerful was the gift. It existed before, but very weakly (as the only magic in the world outside what was completely and fully contained in the bloodstone was either Elder Dragon or spiritual (based on Ritualists)), but when Abaddon “gifted” magic – then it was widespread, and extremely powerful – anyone could wield it, and wield a great deal of it. Effectively, everyone were, by modern GW standards, super-wizards. Something like Spectral Agony would probably be a common-place thing (as indications show that was a spell developed prior to the containment of magic in the original Bloodstone – based on chronology). However, when the bloodstones were divided, it was weakened – not as much as it was before the “gift of magic”, but not as strong during the “gift of magic” – so while magic wasn’t made by the gods, nor were the bloodstones, magic was still gifted by them.

@Zogyark: Haven’t found new information myself, sadly.

@Mystic: It certainly doesn’t seem to be an expansion of more powerful races. The dialogue makes it sound like gargoyles disappeared overnight. That doesn’t happen by invasive species.

Essarious Quw.8946:

I am glad you think this. I don’t think the structures were Orrian but I do think that whoever lived there was fed to the bloodstones before the Mursaat moved into Kryta.

As for being on topic… Anet have said that they have some plans but that remains to be seen. The fact that the Isles of Janthir are on the world map though suggests that there is a possibility (if only slight) that we will get to go to the Mursaat homeland at some point.

The tarnished coast ruins are fairly similar to some of the Orrian structure concept art – though holds little resemblance to their structures in the game itself. Still, it could be a deviation of original Orrian architecture.

Nothing says the Isles of Janthir are the mursaat homeland, if you want to get technical – only that the Eye of Janthir comes from there, the White Mantle say its to the south, and its inhabitants have True Sight. Though considering all this comes from the same White Mantle, who was wrong on the direction of it…

Mystic Starfish.2586:

@konig, from what little references to the Mursaat in GW2, it sounds like they’re more frightened of the Elder Dragons than anything, and thus wouldn’t really care about killing the queen and what not. I’d think they’d be more intent on hiding like they did last time

Most likely true.

However, if it’s true that the mursaat are near extinction, then it’s just as likely that they’re going into reckless abandon with the mentality of “I’m doomed anyways, so I might as well make my enemies doomed as well!” – the End Game strategy (as I believe it’s called), basically. You stop working to win the game, and instead work to prevent your enemy from winning. More or less the same thing Adelbern did (sane or not at the time).

Arenanet LOVES to estimate numbers. They LOVE round numbers.

This is why Guild Wars 2 is said to take place “250 years after GW1” – despite it being only 250 years after Nightfall. This is why the Elder Dragons are said to have awaken 50 years apart. This is why the sylvari are said to be 25 years old (according to the novel timelines, they’re 23 years old). This is also why the Ghosts of Ascalon summary says that the Foefire was 250 years ago (it was 234 years prior to GoA).

@Odoakar: I’d doubt that from Claw Island to killing Zhaitan was more than a year. Each GW1 campaign (sans the 2 year intermission seen in Prophecies) takes place within a year. GW2’s likely the same. The game seems to begin in spring/summer, so it likely ends in about winter.

You can probably expect some “Zhaitan is dead” dialogue in Halloween content – if not Wintersday content.

“mostly because of how many things are wrong with it” – however, the only thing that’s wrong with it, is Frostgorge Sound and Janthir Bay/Isles of Janthir, really. The land directly north of the central continental Tyria.

That’s not a lot wrong. As far as we know, the minor alterations of Cantha and Elona are intended to be post-tidal wave and kitten Elon effects. And it’s the best example we have for what the world looks like (and given the Order of Whispers have spread themselves throughout, and still have access between Tyria and the outside world, it’s most likely ~80-90% accurate – and I’d say ~95-99% accurate on the general scale (that is, ignoring lack of the more finer details not seen outside continental Tyria)).

I don’t see what relevance the mirror has with this discussion – that mirror’s abilities are Orrian in nature, not related to Zhaitan (though his minions can control the mirror’s powers, most likely due to them being Orrian and retaining their knowledge) – the mirror doesn’t corrupt or anything, it’s merely a gateway of sorts.

Jormag corrupts mentally, but there are physical side-effects. It’d be best to read Edge of Destiny by what I mean by corrupting mentally vs. corrupting physically, but basically Kralkatorrik corrupts with his breath, directly altering them with physical contact, while Jormag and its minions corrupt through mental means – the ice being a sideeffect where new icebrood are only caked in ice and their bodies slowly turn to ice over time (whereas branded are instantly and completely turned into large creatures of crystal – there is no delay in their physical appearance). Zhaitan, on the other hand, only shows to corrupt corpses through exerting corrupted magic into them (a kind of radiation effect, by the looks of things).

And nothing about Glint says how she corrupted, actually. She could read minds, yes, but she didn’t corrupt beings through that (or at least, nothing even implies such) and besides, that’s not the same as what the Dragonspawn (and in turn, other champions of Jormag and Jormag himself) does. We never hear or see how she makes the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders, or how she corrupted before she was given free will by the forgotten. (P.S., she’s good – the whole Flameseeker Prophecies, including allowing us to be fooled, was in order to kill off the mursaat – and the threat of the titans was worse than she anticipated, and she knew we’d kill the lich in the end irregardless, though we only could have done so thanks to the soul batteries and bloodstone, which we wouldn’t have had if Glint told us about him and thus we’d idiotically try to confront him in the Shiverpeaks where no such bloodstone or soul batteries are).

Guild Wars 1 is more or less about the beginning of humanity’s fall. The very first (chronologically) thing that people can encounter is the Searing – which devastated Ascalon, and off screen there’s the Cataclysm of Orr destroying perhaps the greatest human nation.

However, even before their fall, I would hardly say that humanity “ruled the world” – to our knowledge, they only lived in 3 (with implications of a 4 though) continents – these continents combined (and the space between them) make up roughly 1/8th of the world.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/47/Tyria.jpg

You should be able to make out Tyria on that map, just SE of it is Elona, and the continent to the south is Cantha (though we only explored the northern half of Cantha – but there’s implications saying that humanity came from south of said northern half of the continent – which would indicate the southern half).

As far as we know, since humanity arrived on the world they have indeed been the most dominatable race (thanks to Balthazar’s motivation and claiming all of Tyria for humans), but tengu are also said to have been from across the world – and though suppressed in Tyria and Cantha, and not seen in Elona despite living there, we hold no indication of their livelihood outside those three continents.

Furthermore, there are heavy implications that the charr rule a lot of land to the east of the in-game maps of Tyria (both GW1 and GW2 since they go equally far east more or less). They are said to have an “empire” if I recall correctly, with Blood Legion (and supposedly Ash Legion) ruling lands east of the Blazeridge Mountains – how far east is anyone’s guess though.

Before humans, though, it seems that dwarves and forgotten were the most widespread race – with the former having relics found in the Jade Sea (though how they got there is unknown, thus there’s only minor implications of dwarves in Cantha’s history) and the latter having outright been called caretakers of the world (and indeed, having a confirmed presence throughout continental Tyria, Elona, and Cantha – if not more).

So, among the most widespread races? Humans definitely fit. But “rule the world”? No, not at all. Some have tried, at least one god wanted them to (with 2 not), but they haven’t.

Though we don’t know the situation around the rest of the world – maybe humans are ruling those lands and we just don’t know for xyz reason (I doubt it though).

@Vejuz: Extremely unlikely. Not only are they too small (not a continent), they appear to be rather barren – which wouldn’t fit with the jungle/aztec theme of Utopia.

@Sajuuk: I’m pretty sure Yitsul means off the coast of Tyria to the west (the common speculation for where Utopia was to be located). I don’t see why you’d think that it must be physically connected to a previous explored continent (especially given that Cantha wasn’t to Tyria :P).

I’d agree that the lands to the west were to be Utopia’s placement – though truth be told, there’s nothing to support such a claim – and if we were to use the globe of Tyria we see, there’s a two-piece continent to the west of Tyria.

Alternatively, I’d argue for east of Tyria. Why? We were told that Nightfall would have hints to the next campaign (Utopia), and in Nightfall one can find Ascalonian ruins in the Desolation as well as undead charr (Awakening Defilers) as well as the Preserved Iris Flower, and Ascalonian ghosts (explorers and researchers with no real reason in the area) in the Desolation, all of which hinted to Ascalon and Gwen all together and thus would point to somewhere near Ascalon – best place to go would be east (other than, you know, north) – (though I’d actually argue that Bahltek and Prince Mehtu’s dialogue of a disappearing island were the real hints, but these three things are not unlikely).

Bard.7215:

I was wrong for using the concept that the elder dragons have class parrallels, again it was more of a magic type/ element of said energy divide I was refering too.

I don’t think the bloodstones discredit the idea that the dragons have a representation as the elements.

I never said anything about elements. Thing is, professions don’t use elements – they use the schools. Dragons use elements.

They use two different concepts in their energy. Though the professions’ magic can take the form of affecting elements (particularly seen in elementalists, necromancers, and rangers), that isn’t how they’re classified.

The magic “types” are the “schools” – that’s how magic works in Guild Wars. Their appearance to natural elements is merely that – appearance. There’s nothing that says “non-Elementalists cannot use lightning-appearing magic” or “since Elementalists use Destruction magic, other professions who don’t use Destruction magic cannot use elemental magic” – since both cases are very much false (guardians have a, albeit minor, ability to use magic to make both lightning and fire; similarly, necromancers can create ice with their magic).

Unless you’re referring to the mechanical damage types (in GW1, those being Fire, Cold/Ice, Earth, Lightning, Holy, Chaos, and Unholy – excluding physical damage) but that’s unrelated (directly speaking) to lore.

Magic cannot be placed into “types” like you’re trying – instead, what you’re giving the dragons are irrelevant to magic (directly, that is) as that is natural elements rather than “magical elements” (something that’s non-existent in GW). Which once more means there’s no (direct) relation between Elder Dragons and professions (especially since we’d thus get 3 Elder Dragons for Elementalists, one for both Elementalists and Mesmers, and one for Necromancers – but Elementalists and Mesmers use different magic schools, and only one at that, therefore by your argument, Kralkatorrik and Primordus would be using the same “magic type”).

DootmasterX.3025:

In the game (SPOILERS RED ALERT AWOOOGA) one of the Orr personal story quests I went through with my engineer involved going to the Temple of Grenth in the Cursed Shore as part of the quest line to find the Source of Orr had a Priestess of Grenth come along with us. As the quest progressed she explained that Malchor is, in fact, Grenth’s father and that it is the ‘biggest secret’ kept among the various Priests of Grenth.

Again, false. And this was brought up in the thread.

She says that Grenth’s father was a mortal sculptor – no name was ever given.

If I recall correctly, wasn’t the Mirror of Lyss (particularly where the Sebelkeh is) magical and that’s why the ritual was needed to be there? I kind of figured that the rituals placements were rather special intentionally so – though I’m unsure of what significance to the ritual Gandara may have (other than having a plaza of the five gods) – maybe the shape, being a triangle.

But I figured that it was more of Varesh’s judgment to kill off the priests and priestesses and blaspheme the temple.

Essarious Quw.8946:

- In the human personal story you discover that possession of an Orrian artefact can and will corrupt you into a servant of Zhaitan.
- It is implied by NPCs out in the world (the ones that talk to each other when you walk past) that the plague given off by Orrian corpses can make you sick, and turn you to Zhaitan without killing you.
- In the midway point of the personal story you find out that the breath of both Zhaitan and it’s more powerful generals can corrupt perfectly healthy living beings immediately.
- It is also implied by NPCs that living things are taken to Orr specifically to be corrupted. This is supported by part of the Sylvari personal story involving an enchanted mirror.

It is also possible for both Jormag and Kral-whatsisface- to corrupt the living. No matter how much bigger, stronger, smellier or healier (I know it’s not a word but eh) you are, if you come into contact with an Elder Dragon without some sort of backup you are going to be corrupted and become a problem for the player character.

I always took the second and third example as a corruption that quickly kills and reanimates – after all, during the battles of Claw Island, the champion’s breath is just a very powerful poison to you, and even the one directly affected by it is only blinded and able to recover.

The artifact is unique, even to how Zhaitan corrupts as it seems to be more of a slow killing poison – that is to say, that it’s not related to how Zhaitan normally corrupts or how he directly corrupts, but rather is caused by an artifact that has Zhaitan’s energies in it corrupting its surroundings (much like the amulet that Howl has for charr characters’ storyline).

The last example – I don’t know what you’re referring to. Do you mean the ship in the personal story where you choose to sink it or go to the place in Orr where they make risen? If that’s the case, then the ship is carrying corpses, not living beings.

Each elder dragon corrupts differently, by the way. Jormag corrupts mentally and Kralkatorrik corrupts physically – Zhaitan seems to corrupt magically/spiritually (either or, or both – it’s hard to tell), since he is only really seen corrupting dead creatures and at that, has imprisoned spirits in his risen (though not all) and we know from Gokk was it? From an asura’s studies that Zhaitan corrupts by absorbing magical energies from creatures and things, corrupting the magic, then putting it back in – with how much magic put back in determining its level of intelligence and rank in the risen army (as I got this second-hand, I don’t know if this applies to all Elder Dragons, but given what we know of Jormag and Kralkatorrik, I don’t think so).

Nothing and no one ever claimed Jormag and Kralkatorrik didn’t corrupt living beings (in fact, we knew from the beginning they could).

I was responding as I was reading, as always, drax. :P

They previously had Creature Codex items that were skill points, but they were removed for some reason. They acted more or less like you want (more information on types of enemies), and had their own place in the bank.

Would love to see a lore encyclopedia – not just monsters, but places, things, and events too. So I really do hope that they re-add the Creature Codexes, or something like it, and expand it to much more of the lore.

I don’t recall Lyssa ever being tied to “unaffiliated energy” – in either game. Mesmers use chaos magic though, when it deals with non-mental or illusionary magic (and Lyssa != Mesmers).

I actually wouldn’t really call the Sixth – should Zone Green be in reference to it – a “nature” dragon but rather a “plant” dragon (there’s a huge difference). And when one associates plants, they typically think either life or earth – though Zone Green also has a lot of poison, which would be more of death than anything else I’d think.

To Kralkatorrik being crystal – personally, I think that was more made out of a desire to expand upon the lore of the Searing (which seems more and more to be tied to Kralkatorrik now) and Glint – and the easiest means was a Crystal Elder Dragon. And what better place to put it than the Crystal Desert…. Because Crystals!

But I still don’t really see any tie to the professions with the Elder Dragons. Keep in mind that the professions are in fact merely lifestyles utilizing the same four schools of magic: Preservation (supposedly guardian – formerly monk and paragon), Denial (supposedly mesmer and thief – formerly assassin), Destruction (confirmed elementalists – possibly dervish), and Aggression (supposedly necromancer – possibly ritualist). Ranger’s placement is completely hard to tell, since they don’t really match the “most likely” professions from GW1 or in GW2 (they gained magical abilities between the two games).

So the eight professions are just different utilizations of the same magic. So if there would be a tie between ED and professions, it’d be to those schools of magic. HOWEVER! The schools of magic were created by the division of the original Bloodstone – this happened 10,000 years after the Elder Dragons’ latest previous awakening. Furthermore, said original Bloodstone was made by the seers by collecting all non-corrupted magic.

In other words, the four schools of magic are outright and explicitly not in direct relation to the Elder Dragons (in that they share representations or the like) and in turn cannot hold a relation between ED and professions. But rather, the Elder Dragons’ magic are outside these four schools of magic.

Strang.8170:

Eir?

Seriously, twilight arbor story and that norn just wrecks anyone in her range :/ so. much. frustration.

Really? Every time I do that dungeon, it’s Rytlock who’s wrecking everyone. The rest are cannon fodder more or less for my groups.

Thing about GW1 is that monsters were designed to use player skills. Human monks, for instance, in lore called upon the gods’ divine power – however, this clearly isn’t the case for charr or insect monks. So just because they use a skill doesn’t mean they’re actually using that specific skill – it could simply be the game’s means of representing a creature’s ability.

After all, I doubt there were skales and the like wielding scythes in Nightfall.

Elementals are unique as they are made from magic.

Oozes (in GW2) don’t use magic, and raptors never did (in either game). Wind Riders are also magically-adept creatures (that is to say, it seems that they’re attracted to magical places, based on their placements).

And I think you’re mistaking sentience over sapience – though this is nitpicking. Sentience merely means being aware of one’s surroundings, which even the so-called mindless elementals very much are.

I don’t think there’s a specific reason why it’s trolls. They probably just picked what was best for the area – and in the wilderness parts, grawl, trolls, and ettins are probably the best options for something that would cultivate vegetables.

The sixth Elder Dragon may not be on continental Tyria either, truth be told. 3 was enough, and a 4th is heading south to Tyria (Jormag).

Strang.8170:

King, i know it´s because of that in general. What i´m asking why is it trolls and not any of the bazillion inelligent races there is.

But it’s not? As said, there’s ettins seen as such, and I recall there being a veteran skale and a veteran wurm guarding to other patches. Grawl too, in fact.

Zhaitan’s a bit of an odd-ball of the group, but all Elder Dragons’ power are, in appearance, related to a single aspect of nature/elements (fire, ice, crystal, water). Arguably, Zhaitan can be death, undeath, or even life (giving life to the dead creates what we call undeath).

However, I’m not seeing a connection between professions and Elder Dragons. Not on a one-to-one basis at least.

Jormag corrupts mentally, and thus can be argued to relate to mesmers. However, he is ice first and foremost, therefore – water elementalists or ice necromancers. Primordus is fire, and somewhat earth, therefore elementalists. Kralkatorrik is crystal and lightning, elementalist fitting the best. Zhaitan while being the undeath dragon, utilizes mesmers to the nth degree and thus can be argued to be either necromancer or mesmer.

The reason I don’t attribute Kralkatorrik to earth is due to Subject Alpha during the Crucible of Eternity explorable mode – he has attacks from each dragon, and two of them are earth-related. Teeth of Jormag has a mixture of ice and earth (a single large icespike surrounded by earth spikes), and “Teeth of Mordramoth” which is solely earth. However, his Kralkatorrik-related attack is solely crystal.

It just doesn’t work out, truth be told. There’s just too many ties to nature and the elements – and thus too many dragons being tied to elementalists.

Also, Mesmers aren’t “unaffiliated energy” but rather chaos.

There’s no such portal in the BMP mission. They appear from smoke and lightning, iirc.

And the word “dimension” has never been used in lore in regards to the mursaat or… anything, I think. Though they are said to be able to “phase out” of Tyria (what this means exactly is unknown).

Narcemus.1348:

Well then it wouldn’t necessarily be the races corrupting it, but the gods. When they came to Tyria perhaps it was a much different place, and they ‘corrupted’ it to their standards.

Except that there were races before the gods, and uncorrupted life at the time – which is what I was going to. If I recall correctly, there’s been mention of forgotten finding a means to have immunity to dragon corruption (outside of giving Glint free will) from the Arah dungeon path – this could mean that they “fixed” the world in the past (could be why they’re called caretakers) – and then there’s the seers having collected “uncorrupted magic” into the original Bloodstone.

Bard.7215:

Trolls seem to be stuck in the same loreless zone as Skelk, Ettin and Skale.

All of them being incredibly primitive (Skale and Skelk might not even be sentient) and considered bothersome.

Skale and skelk are amphibious creatures of the world – little different from your average wolf and whatnot. However, Skale are sentient to a degree, as in Istan in Nightfall, they recognized human cultists that worshipped the skale (yeah, crazy loonies), had a leader (“Skale Lord”) and even a god.

Skelk’s lore is that they originate from the depths of Tyria and were pushed out by Primordus – not much else on them. They’re just amphibious wildlife originally native from the depths. Though it seems, based on model, that they’re related to gravelings (or the gravelings are a kind of skelk) as they have the same models, same burrow models, and both come from the depths. This can kind of seem like there’s few destroyer activity in Ascalon, since they didn’t reach the surface in numbers yet.

There’s a bit of ettin lore scattered throughout – though only in select areas. I haven’t yet really looked into it though. Will sometime, and update the wiki pages for them.

draxynnic.3719:

I’m not sure the troll AoE attack is actually intended to be magic – it could instead be a representation that they know their caves and know what to do to cause a rockfall in a particular location.

You haven’t fought ice trolls yet, have you?

They do an actual PBAoE ice burst. Cave trolls do similar with an earth PBAoE – this isn’t the avalanche skill I’m talking about. Similarly, Jungle Trolls cause poison and disappear. I’d say they’re using magic, personally, but very primitive. Though I could see it being argued as “using one’s environment” or a natural ability – but it’s as of yet not indicated to be such.

Bard.7215:

If I recall, Skelk in GW1 where boney rat like creatures. In GW2 Skelk have become scavenging salamander “men” who live in borrows and posses shadowstep/stealth abilities.

They were always scavengers, I believe. Though in GW1 they did have a larger variety of model shapes. This was probably done to simplify things and make it realistic. I bet if we meet mandragors again, we’d get the same – or many other wildlife creatures.

Similar reason why you’ll find rich ore veins behind veteran or champion enemies – it’s meant to be the reward for killing (or bypassing) a non-event veteran/champion (sometimes there’s a chest instead).

The LA one is an added reward for the jumping puzzle, most likely.