Guard has always been a counter to thf, that is not new. And DH even more so. It’s not impossible for a thf to kill a DH, but you have to be on top of your game. I’ve been killed by thieves before. If i were you i’d stop trying to pick fights with a DH unless you’re ready for it.
Something doesn’t need to be nerfed just because you can’t beat it.
PS: your suggestions are thoughtful, but people will not stop complaining about traps until they are as useless as thf traps. People simply do not like being bursted down by traps, and increasing the cool down wont change that perception. You will still get threads about people wanting the traps nerfed because they got killed by them. They also want the cc from dragon’s maw gone. People wont stop complaining until that cc is gone too.
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They already mentioned that they might be willing to make changes so that other forms of pre mades aren’t matched up against solo queue players, but that they are concerned about the queue times. Let us not forget that you guys like to complain about queue times too.
It would be the height of comedy if they made the changes you guys wanted only to then spit curses at anet over the queue times that you’ve created.
It is also possible that the people involved chose to take this measure because a majority of the players will still assume that premade v.s. solo is an unfair matchup despite data showing otherwise, which would be an understandable choice in my opinion. However, in that case I would feel that ‘by popular demand’ would have provided a more honest explanation than the current one.
.
Basically this. They know that according to the data, premades don’t have such a great advantage against solo players, but they also realize that perception is important in customer service, so they gotta make this change to please the customers. You can’t simply show the customers the data because they still wont believe it as is custom for human behavior.
I have no idea how you think it wasn’t great to watch. There were so many kills, there were actually some comebacks (including one absolutely incredible one that even if all other games were awful it would have made the finals worth watching), and there were close matches. I also loved seeing the search and rescue play in the second semi final(I really don’t want it nerfed now just because of how awesome it was to watch in the pro league even though I did before). I will admit that the first semi final could have been more exciting and close but the other 2 matches were awesome to watch. Maybe people say they don’t like it because they simply don’t like the concept of gw2 e-sports but as someone who does really like watching the e-sport events that are held, the finals were amazing and I quite literally can’t wait for season 2 which will use the same meta.
Question for you, what happened to that caused the come back?
The one on temple? Vermilion got a load of kills on abjured players and managed to decap all their points so with about 1 minute left it was 1 cap to 0 in favour of vermilion and they also got tranquility and held a 3 cap for the rest of the game to win 500-477.
In total it was about a 200 point comeback.This is exactly what I mean, you have no idea what exactly caused the come back.
What skills did they use during that key moment? How much was the damage? How much was the sustain? Was it good positioning? Was it bad positioning? What mistakes were made?
The comeback largely came i believe, from alkor managing to keep chaith away from tranquility and the rest of vermillion being able to kill the rest of abjured on al other points, forcing them to regroup at tranq while the rest of verm got caps off, and then reinforced alkor at tranq.
Abjured realized that alkor’s search and rescue could easily turn a match, so they started bursting him down at every opportunity rendering him useless, but when it came to temple, abjured was too busy with caps and secondary objectives to keep alkor supressed.
What key skills were used that turned the tide? Which player made a mistake that made the come back happen?
Search and rescue.
Arguably, more than one abjured member made a misplay when they devoted too many to tranq.
edit: after reading the rest of the thread, it seems your question was answered and you decided to move the goal post.
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We do have a shout heal. It’s a conal aoe one too. It’s pretty kittenty.
That is pretty much all he ever does on this forum. Complain that anet has it out for mesmer. Not even sure he even plays the game.
That Vermilion guys are really 18+? When i joined the stream they looked like some 14-16 years olds.
Same as rank55.
I have no idea how you think it wasn’t great to watch. There were so many kills, there were actually some comebacks (including one absolutely incredible one that even if all other games were awful it would have made the finals worth watching), and there were close matches. I also loved seeing the search and rescue play in the second semi final(I really don’t want it nerfed now just because of how awesome it was to watch in the pro league even though I did before). I will admit that the first semi final could have been more exciting and close but the other 2 matches were awesome to watch. Maybe people say they don’t like it because they simply don’t like the concept of gw2 e-sports but as someone who does really like watching the e-sport events that are held, the finals were amazing and I quite literally can’t wait for season 2 which will use the same meta.
Question for you, what happened to that caused the come back?
The one on temple? Vermilion got a load of kills on abjured players and managed to decap all their points so with about 1 minute left it was 1 cap to 0 in favour of vermilion and they also got tranquility and held a 3 cap for the rest of the game to win 500-477.
In total it was about a 200 point comeback.This is exactly what I mean, you have no idea what exactly caused the come back.
What skills did they use during that key moment? How much was the damage? How much was the sustain? Was it good positioning? Was it bad positioning? What mistakes were made?
The comeback largely came i believe, from alkor managing to keep chaith away from tranquility and the rest of vermillion being able to kill the rest of abjured on al other points, forcing them to regroup at tranq while the rest of verm got caps off, and then reinforced alkor at tranq.
Abjured realized that alkor’s search and rescue could easily turn a match, so they started bursting him down at every opportunity rendering him useless, but when it came to temple, abjured was too busy with caps and secondary objectives to keep alkor supressed.
I watched the finals. It wasn’t impressive at all. There was excessive hype. What are we seeing here?
We’re seeing a group of players waited on hand and foot by anet. We see them getting the buffs and nerfs they want. We see them setting up an environment that suits there tastes and personal agendas and biases.
Where were the Mesmers? They weren’t there.. the Pro League players were unwilling to learn to play against them. ANET accommodated them by nerfing Mesmer out of the game.
Pasha.
I nearly died of eye roll.
With all the unblockable stuff flying around, i feel that purification and renewed focus are required utilities now a days.
Could the OP at least explain why he want these nerfs? I’m at a loss.
He dislikes eles being bunker/support. He prefers going glass.
Ah.
Sounds pretty petty of him.
Well that’s the short reason, gathered through his threads.
The longer one is
He worries that all ele nerfs and lack of buffs to Scepter FA is a consequence of the effectiveness of bunker Eles. That’s not entirely unreasonable but requesting a general nerf to all builds because of that isn’t reasonable. It’s better to check where and why bunker ele over performs and nerf that while buffing other builds to be closer to the original.
Well he does have a tendency to not review things from a broader perspective…
I think bunker/support ele does so well because it covers one glaring weakness ele has (low hp, low armor) while providing valuable support to its team through healing and auras. A glass ele is too much of a liability in pro league. I get that some eles might want more variety in their choices, but right now we got at least 3 classes that aren’t being played in pro league (warrior, guard, thf) that need attention, and one class that is being stacked (revs). Seems like these are bigger priorities than nerfing bunker/support ele which might be the only viable build in pro leagues for that class.
Could the OP at least explain why he want these nerfs? I’m at a loss.
What do you think kept the revenants alive during the finals?
So?
Maybe they are overperforming?
You’re defining overperforming as being the healer in a group. I don’t think that’s necessarily true, especially if the healer can be bursted and the healer can’t burst back.
I think support ele is fine. I believe a better definition of overperformance might be rev, given that most teams ran two of them.
I would love to ask the pro league finals participants why they think guardian, thf and warrior could not be used for their finals. I assume they tested some builds so they must have some valuable information.
Could the OP at least explain why he want these nerfs? I’m at a loss.
What do you think kept the revenants alive during the finals?
So?
It’s pretty clear from the finals that rev is gonna require some reviews. I’m not so sure guardian or thf need buffs though. Maybe perhaps some buffs to bunker guard but that would only accomplish creating more variety for guardians, not necessarily making it pro league material.
Could the OP at least explain why he want these nerfs? I’m at a loss.
He dislikes eles being bunker/support. He prefers going glass.
Ah.
Sounds pretty petty of him.
The temple fight with vermillion vs. abjured was probably the most exciting match i’ve seen this entire season.
Could the OP at least explain why he want these nerfs? I’m at a loss.
OP came out as a terrible at pvp.
Someone get him a flag.
I think this obsession with DH traps is in part psychological.
People generally don’t like being defeated in the first place, but when the defeat comes at the hands of an indirect mechanic, players seem to get even more incensed. This applies to pets, condi damage and traps. People really really get bent out of shape when they get defeated by these mechanics. So with that in mind, there is no way to balance these indirect damage mechanics that would satisfy players short of making them do as little damage as possible, such as the case with the reveal trap, which, coincidentally, is almost never used.
When Anet sees these threads about condi damage, pets or traps, they really need to take into consideration the psychological reaction of the player to these mechanics that may be motivating the higher levels of anger.
We all know the Mesmer is really useless in PVP since a long time..
By a long time, you mean about a month ago or were you not awake during december?
As was mentioned before, if you’ve fought enough DH and have even played one yourself, you get a feel for how large the traps are, and can usually just circle around them if the DH isn’t sitting on them. Only traps you can’t do this with are test of faith and fragments of faith.
For Pve the second weapon set is pretty much irrelevant since you should always be on hammer for the sustained dps. And if it isn’t a fight that lasts a while, you probably shouldn’t take hammer and you should go lb/gs.
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If you’re so concerned about getting one shot by a thf, don’t go glass then. I swear, people thinking they can go zerker amulet or marauder and not get their kitten kicked in by another zerker is hilarious.
Like i said in a different thread. This forum is the go to place for people to post angry posts whenever they get rekt in pvp.
It’s kind of like a call center for any kind of company. People only call you when they have a problem and they want to complain about it. They don’t call you to thank you for the great product/service they are receiving. So official forums for MMOs are kind of like call centers. Can’t say i envy whomever is in charge of looking for feedback from this cesspool.
LB is probably better than GS if what you want is burst but your second weapon set is hammer. LB has burst with true shot, and it also has CC with lb 5 and heavy light. There will always be a situation in a pvp match where you might want to range someone instead of melee.
All are talking about raids. The title asked if its useful outside of raids and i guess PvE.
So what about hammer in PvP.
There is a decent hammer/bow spec using DH and palladin’s amulet. It’s mostly centered on cc spamming. Probably offers better team support than GS/bow.
I’ve beaten them before as medi hammer/bow DH with palladin’s amulet, but as is almost always the case, the outcome of the 1vs1 also depends on individual player skill. If the druid is crap, probably anything can beat him. I imagine we’re assuming the druid in question is a pro?
Hammer might still be good for high level fractals.
I use this exact build except that i use renewed focus and i usually trait for wings of resolve to clear condis, but i can see the appeal of using glacial heart if you think the enemy lacks condi.
With this spec and using palladin’s amulet, you can lock down an enemy and set them up for a burst from your team quite easily. You can also 1vs1 druids and scrappers with this spec, but you need to take renewed focus and palladin’s amulet.
It’s really fun the amount of combos you can pull:
Banish>hunter’s verdict>heavy light
hunter’s ward>JI+ring of warding>mighty blow>zealot’s embrace>banish>hunter’s verdict>heavy light
hunter’s verdict>ring of warding>zealot’s embrace>banish>hunter’s ward
hunter’s verdict>zealot’s embrace>banish>hunter’s ward
Often times, if you’re using palladin’s amulet you will win fights against bursty classes simply because they don’t have a chance to fight back because of how often you’re throwing them around and how much healing you can put out.
The counter to this build: any stability, stealth, or invulnerability that every class has buckets of.
Sure, but that’s stability, stealth and invulnerability they just had to use up to get away from your CC chain. So the rest of your team should be able to pin & burst.
Ranger or guardian elite spec.
Yep traps that do as much dmg as wells aren’t OP at all in a game mode that revolves around fighting on the point. Wells have nothing on traps, since you can lay one set, and by the time someone steps on them they are off CD so you can then follow up with a second set. Boy I wish I could cast wells twice in a row like that!
And DH is the prime reason thieves still suck in pvp. The fact DH hard counters thieves wouldn’t be so bad were it not for the fact that every spvp team has like 3 DH’ers in it.
I mean the whole argument DH users use is “We’re not OP because Reapers beat us.”
OK so there is one class more OP then you… * slow clap *
So your complaint:
1. Wells are different than traps.
2.DH hard counters thf (core guard didn’t?)
Bohoo
There are two different kinds of DH specs. One runs palladin amulet with meditations and 1-2 traps, usually purification and test of faith. This is the tanky, condition cleanse heavy build. Then there is the other spec that runs marauder. This one can be bursty, but your mileage with this spec can vary. If the DH takes procession of blades, test of faith, and dragon’s maw, this spec can pump out a lot of on node damage and down cleave. This is one of the specs people usually complain about when they get ravaged. Then there’s the medi trapper DPS varient that will run renewed focus as an elite, and only run test of faith with perhaps purification. This one can last longer and does most of it’s dps by bouncing you around through test of faith. This is generally the spec that was taken in pro league whenever DH showed up. It lacks the ward from dragon’s maw that people complain about, but is harder to kill due to renewed focus and additional healing and condi cleanse from either smite condition or contemplation of purity.
I really don’t get the complaining about wings of resolve. It’s a great heal and with low cd, but it’s interrupteble. I can’t count the number of frustrating times i’ve had the heal interrupted. It’s irritating but unlike other guardians i can understand that the delayed cast time of F2 is the trade off for a bigger heal with a lower cd.
The suggestions from the OP would pretty much wreck DH. Sounds less like a balance suggestion and more like sourgrapes.
Do note that unblockable projectiles are not reflectable.
Evening!
So i’m kind of at a loss on whether to use contemplation of purity or test of faith and similarly whether to use hunter’s fortification or heavy light. Generally if i’m facing more than 1 necro, i will always run hunter’s fortification, but when there’s only 1 or zero, i’m not so sure whether to change to heavy light. Since i’m not using test of faith, it seems like a waste to take it, but at the same time, every time you knock an enemy back, that’s a few seconds in which they can’t fight back.
I also know that if i take test of faith, that makes it easier to justify heavy light, but i’m not sure if i really wana get rid of the heal/condi cleanse that CoP provides. Any guard here care to explain what they prefer using and/or how it relates to their build? Maybe some stories on how their build performed better when they chose one utility over another?
@kuya
List of questions for you
- How many heals do you have?
- How many stuns do you have? Pulls?
- How many blocks do you have?
- Protection? Regeneration? Aegis?
- Are you running trappers runes? how much stealth you have?
- You really think we hard counter you?
Okay because that sounds really snippy let me inform you of something. Killshot, and Gunflame are overpowered skills on an extremely under-powered class. As such it makes the class have one viable option. one day it will be nerfed.
Yo dude,
That all sounds great and everything and i’m not trying to make you look like an idiot, but blocks don’t matter with signet of might. The only thing that a guard can do to stop gunflame is dodge or RF. Also, guards don’t have stuns. They have dazes with traps, which require that the guard pulls you in, which requires you don’t dodge the spear, and which requires the guard to know that he needs to pull you in before you use gunflame.
A guard could use the stealth from trapper runes to avoid the gunflame, but that’s only if he knows it’s coming.
I don’t know why you’re getting so defensive. I’m not here to ask for nerfs for gunflame, if that’s the impression you got. It’s kind of frustrating that this is the second time i must repeat this. It almost feels as if people read the first few sentences of my OP and completely ignore the rest of the conversation that took place beforehand. Stop it.
I’m here to say, again, that i think gunflame is a great hard counter to trap DH and i think it’s unfair to say warrior is the worst class in pvp when and if traited properly, it can be used to hard counter other classes. I do think gunflame and its damage when traited properly should exist and i’m not here to complain about it or ask for it to get nerfed. Can we please get over this?
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gunzerker is really not that good of a build, it’s average, it works in certain ideal situations and maps such as a sniper. it can kitten up necromancers. it has little sustain and little to no condi clear. infact it’s very subpar in a 1 v 1’s. not bad but mediocore. the builds effectivness depends really on your own tactics and your teammates bieng able to sustain you. But it cannot hold a point or fight on point.
5/10 really.
I’m ofcourse open to the possibility that incredibly skilled warriors can make it work and increase it effectivness in skirmishes. but the build self is meh. A guardian has quite a bit of cc and aegis. to combat them. actually focusing a gunzerker down is really all one needs to do. condi’s will also do the trick or cc.
I just use signet of might to counter the aegis and shield of courage.
Just to clarify,
I’m not here to complain about gunzerkers or to ask for advice in dealing with them. The purpose of the thread was to say that as guardian, i believe gunflame berserker is a great counter to DH, particularly trap heavy DH (especially one that runs dragon’s maw over renewed focus). I’ve even made a gunflame zerker and made a sport of hunting down other DHs since i think it’s kind of fun.
But since i only recently made a warrior, i wanted to ask warrior mains if they also considered a glass canon gunflame berserker to be a DH counter, and if yes, why they didn’t think this affected the perception of warrior as a low tier pvp class.
I know, but with the buffs to necros, it’s really common to see multiple of them in a match, plus maybe a condi rev or two. So i find the sacrifice is worth it. You can’t really rely on the sigils though since they are RNG and have cds, but they do take pressure off you. Because of the sigils i wait to see more than 2 condis on me before i cleanse since if i try to use smite with 2 conditions on, a sigil might proc reducing the condis to 1 or 0 and wasting the smite.
The good thing is though, if you see no necros, feel free to change the sigils to something else.
I use, aside from the meditations, smiter’s boon, and wings of resolve, sigils that remove condis. I find i rarely worry about reapers this way. I occasionally use hunter’s fortification if i see the enemy is condi heavy (more than 1 necro).
So, i have to admit i’m not quite understanding why so many still consider you low tier in pvp. Obviously, this is coming from my experience as a guardian main, but from what i’ve seen, gunzerker hard counters DH most of the time. It’s gotten to the point that whenever i see a warrior in a match, the first thing i do is check if he’s running rifle so i can keep my eyes on him (so i can use renewed focus when i see him go berserk). I’ve even made a warrior and used a gunflame spec and it’s really addicting to catch a DH with a one hit ko, since a lot of them just sit on the point expecting you to just walk into their traps, and they rarely see the 15k gunflame coming.
Is it that the gunflame thing hasn’t caught on in spvp or is hard countering one class just not considered something that makes you good in spvp?
So is the 25k only for sabetha due to damage on adds or can a hammer DH hit 25k on VG too?
How much did warrior shouts heal for before the nerf?
Question: when people speak about wanting anet to balance pvp, do they mean they want every possible configuration for every profession to be viable in pvp? Every weapon set, every trait line, every utility set?
And when they speak of other games that they say are balanced: do the professions or classes in that game allow for customization of traits, skills and weapon sets? Or do the classes come pre determined with a set of skills, weapons or even traits?
Cause the impression i get is that the more choices and customization you give players, the harder it is to balance. The simpler the game, the easier it is to balance.
While i get it’s the popular thing right now to think that warrior/berserker is completely helpless against all classes, i’d like to rectify that a gunzerker will eat a DH alive. Gunflame? More like boom, headshot!
It’s a cheap spec, but it’s very effective against low hp classes. Not really viable in serious pvp. You will however notice that a DH’s first instinct when he engages you is to pop shield of courage, despite the fact that you have signet of might. After having done that to a couple of DH’s, when i run DH i always check to see if the warrior has a rifle before engaging, then i get ready to pop renewed focus when i see them go berserk.
I honestly thought that threads complaining about DH would stop given that it’s the best indicator of being bad at pvp.
I guess some people haven’t gotten the memo.