Guild Wars 2

Zoso.8279:

This sentence right here is the problem. Also it looks like you want engi play style on necro.

I don’t want necromancer to be a jack of all traits. A single build should have a counter to it. Soft counters are preferred but hard counters are alright as well. However, there shouldn’t be a hard counter for the entire profession. It should matter what your match ups are. It shouldn’t be that their is absolutely nothing you can do to play better based on your limitations from mechanics. So I see no problems with my statement. I don’t want to play like an engineer. We need greater utility. This is a fact. We are front loaded, which puts way too much focus on Death shroud. Its our damage, its our utility, its our defense, its our control, its supposed to be everything all at the same time and executes none of this very well. You must be imagining things on the Engineer comparison, because I don’t want it to be like the engineer. I’ve never even hinted toward that.

Zoso.8279:

Lily.1935:

Zoso.8279:

Ive been playing this game awhile too… I guess we just see it differently. Idk when the devs said its only just extra hp. I could be wrong though but regardless I really enjoy the current version of DS and I’m excited for RS.

I enjoy the necromancer as well. I wouldn’t main it if I didn’t. However, just because I enjoy it doesn’t mean I’m going to be blind to is overwhelming flaws and poor balance design.

When people are crying because they can’t hit focus 5 and blaming the “controller” then there is a problem with the way people are thinking…. Not saying Necro is perfect but its def not where most people think it is. Watching the stream right now at gamescom was kinda hard to watch as a necro main.

I’ve got their rotations down. Its not blaming the controller or any nonsense like that. The GW2 controls are really tight. Its that we often just get hard counters regardless of what build we are taking. Its not even that we’re hard countered for taking a specific build, its all of them. And the lack of group utility that we effectively have to be front loaded in Death shroud just exasperates these problems. With utility, it wouldn’t be broken. Some traits might need to be looked at again, sure. And some skills might need to be retooled because they are not designed with the idea of being used while in Shroud. Most wouldn’t have to change. Signets wouldn’t have to change at all, wells, minions, shouts, corruptions. Well, corruptions need to be buffed but thats on their base not their flat utility. Spectral skills are the the only problem at face value. Which I mentioned. The others? not so much. Wells aren’t very high damage, even though some people might disagree with that but when you compare them to similar damaging aoe from other professions they’re damage is decent but not insane. Granting the necromancer the ability to use their skills in shroud gives them greater opportunity to both support and pressure people. Capable of dropping something like a dark field on a downed ally while at the same time reviving them in Shroud is good, but its not insane. Especially when taking into the Life force cost as the other part of the suggestion. A burst necromancer might have a build that builds up Life force to burst out high damage utility to sacrifice their defenses. This might be against some of the ideas that Arena net had with the necromancer, however they shouldn’t be afraid to break the mold with some professions. Especially a profession thats all about life for power.

Zoso.8279:

Ive been playing this game awhile too… I guess we just see it differently. Idk when the devs said its only just extra hp. I could be wrong though but regardless I really enjoy the current version of DS and I’m excited for RS.

I enjoy the necromancer as well. I wouldn’t main it if I didn’t. However, just because I enjoy it doesn’t mean I’m going to be blind to is overwhelming flaws and poor balance design.

Zoso.8279:

Lily.1935:

Zoso.8279:

Lily.1935:

Zoso.8279:

IDK. I think DS should stay as is for now. I think allowing Utilities to be used while in DS will make it super OP. The biggest problem with Necro is that most people haven’t mastered it yet. Also the way its looking with our specialization (Reaper) it looks that maybe they do add a type of shroud in the future that has utility skills but it will probably be lacking in something else to keep the balance. Probably call it Death Kit Shroud or something like that lol :P. But honestly IMO DS with utility will probably be super OP.

It wouldn’t be. I used to think that about 2 years ago, but with high experience with the profession comes understanding what its flaws are. And without utility the necromancer is put into a pretty sour spot in terms of their defenses and offenses.

Utilities in DS would turn DS into a second health bar :/ and from my experience with the class I can tell you that if you trait properly DS can be very strong both in offense and defense.

And my experience with the profession says that it wont be over poered. And DS is SUPPOSED TO BE A SECOND HEALTH BAR!!!! Although it never functioned that way. In the low end of PvP, people have trouble with necros. In high end, they don’t, necros have been focused almost completely out of the meta. For WvW they’re strong because of the fact that Zergs by their very nature are not as intelligent as a single player. That isn’t saying they’re stupid, we are all less intelligent in a mob. Its just what happens. And In PvE, the necromancer is 8th in usefulness for a group. The necromancer is in an extremely bad spot right now and after 3 years of experience with the necromancer and other professions, the necromancer is extraordinarily weak.

Ill agree with you that in PvE the necro is lackluster compared to other but I think thats more of a design flaw of PvE atm then the necro itself. In WvW I can’t really say because I mostly only roam on my ranger and its mostly solo (atm) but I can tell you in PvP its more of an issue of necros not using the most optimal builds. Now Nos from what I’ve seen in the tournaments plays necro very good and can dominate with the cele signet build but I can’t say every build I’ve seen necros use are as dominant as the cele signet. I think there is a misconception going around that DS is only a second health bar and it should really stop cuz it makes the people who say it sound like they don’t know much about the necro.

Also I can link you my favorite (main) build if you want its very good defensively and offensively in DS. But its a PvP build.

I said it was supposed to be. Not that it was. And a Celestial build isn’t high in both. Its moderate in both. Arena net has pushed it as a second health bar when it doesn’t function like one. Their words not mine. Either way, I have more than enough experience to know the ins and outs of the profession. I’ve been doing this for 3 years, and again, in year 1 I would have agreed with you. But I’m in year 3 now. And I’ve revised my views to match with whats happening in reality. I’ve also got quit a bit of experience with Mesmers, Guardians and Engineer. Out of all of them my necromancer, even with the best meta builds, suggested builds from other people and my own home brew, doesn’t hold a candle to my other mains. Especially the mesmer. And Especially after the patch.

Zoso.8279:

Lily.1935:

Zoso.8279:

IDK. I think DS should stay as is for now. I think allowing Utilities to be used while in DS will make it super OP. The biggest problem with Necro is that most people haven’t mastered it yet. Also the way its looking with our specialization (Reaper) it looks that maybe they do add a type of shroud in the future that has utility skills but it will probably be lacking in something else to keep the balance. Probably call it Death Kit Shroud or something like that lol :P. But honestly IMO DS with utility will probably be super OP.

It wouldn’t be. I used to think that about 2 years ago, but with high experience with the profession comes understanding what its flaws are. And without utility the necromancer is put into a pretty sour spot in terms of their defenses and offenses.

Utilities in DS would turn DS into a second health bar :/ and from my experience with the class I can tell you that if you trait properly DS can be very strong both in offense and defense.

And my experience with the profession says that it wont be over poered. And DS is SUPPOSED TO BE A SECOND HEALTH BAR!!!! Although it never functioned that way. In the low end of PvP, people have trouble with necros. In high end, they don’t, necros have been focused almost completely out of the meta. For WvW they’re strong because of the fact that Zergs by their very nature are not as intelligent as a single player. That isn’t saying they’re stupid, we are all less intelligent in a mob. Its just what happens. And In PvE, the necromancer is 8th in usefulness for a group. The necromancer is in an extremely bad spot right now and after 3 years of experience with the necromancer and other professions, the necromancer is extraordinarily weak.

Zoso.8279:

IDK. I think DS should stay as is for now. I think allowing Utilities to be used while in DS will make it super OP. The biggest problem with Necro is that most people haven’t mastered it yet. Also the way its looking with our specialization (Reaper) it looks that maybe they do add a type of shroud in the future that has utility skills but it will probably be lacking in something else to keep the balance. Probably call it Death Kit Shroud or something like that lol :P. But honestly IMO DS with utility will probably be super OP.

It wouldn’t be. I used to think that about 2 years ago, but with high experience with the profession comes understanding what its flaws are. And without utility the necromancer is put into a pretty sour spot in terms of their defenses and offenses.

meow one twenty.4376:

Lily.1935:

meow one twenty.4376:

Can you describe what handicaps this would solve that aren’t flat buffs?

Our overwhelming predictability in Death shroud.

I’ll give you that. It’s a lot like Rampage’s overwhelming predictability. O:)
(okay slightly more on the “underwhelming” side. Still quite effective though.)

Rampage is an elite that grants 2 stacks of stability every 3 seconds that can negate most hard control and you’re not expected to be able to use rampage every 10 seconds because of that. Rampage doesn’t make up 90% of the warrior’s defenses either. The abilities on rampage have a much shorter cast time for the most part, excluding doom. So the predictability with DS vs Rampage only increases rather than decreases. All these elements combine to create a mechanic that is extremely easy to predict and counter. Another distinction between the two of them is that Rampage is a control and damage skill while Death shroud is supposed to fill damage, control and defense all at the same time while excelling at none of them. While rampage has a clear focus death shroud does not.

Aka, bad comparison. You can’t really compare the two. Death shroud is more akin to a weapon swap, kit or conjure weapon than any of the transforms. A transform doesn’t often have multiple traits associated with it to improve its effectiveness. Perhaps one, maybe two traits depending on the profession. While death shroud is a profession mechanic. Death Shroud is also the only profession mechanic that locks you out of using your utility and you suffer greatly for it. You seem to believe death shroud is more powerful than it actually is. Death shroud is fairly weak as a profession mechanic and its extremely weak when compared to most transform skills. Excluding racial transforms.

meow one twenty.4376:

Can you describe what handicaps this would solve that aren’t flat buffs?

Our overwhelming predictability in Death shroud.

Malchior.1928:

Lily.1935:

Wrong thread. No one here suggested cutting the life force pool.

Incorrect.

zapv.8051:

Shroud shouldn’t function as a transform in general. Make it work like a weapon and health bar swap, half the total amount of DS, and that would fix 80% of the problems with the mechanic. The remaining 20% would be skill fixes.

Ah, My mistake. Yeah, no we shouldn’t cut the total life force pool. I agree 110%

Vydahr.4285:

zapv.8051:

Shroud shouldn’t function as a transform in general. Make it work like a weapon and health bar swap, half the total amount of DS, and that would fix 80% of the problems with the mechanic. The remaining 20% would be skill fixes.

Honestly, I hate that people are suggesting cutting LF in half. It is supposed to be a sustain mechanic. MAKE IT A FREAKING SUSTAIN MECHANIC. I don’t want necros to be like every kittening class out there. We shouldn’t be bursty. Death is slow but inevitable and doesn’t go down easily. Need an invisibility cloak to escape it. kitten turning necros into a burst class. Make us what we were meant to be. A durable attrition class. For kitten’s sake. Is that such a bad thing?

I’m sorry for being so snappy, but kitten , people. Stop trying to make us like every other Zerk class out there. Necros have the opportunity and the inherent design philosophy to be something else. Something that, no, doesn’t do burst damage. But will outlive other classes regardless of situation

Wrong thread. No one here suggested cutting the life force pool.

meow one twenty.4376:

I’m going to go against the grain and say I don’t want it. Shroud is a transform and transforms shouldn’t have access to utilities.

Give it some time. You’ll come around. They always do.

Khristophoros.7194:

Lily.1935:

Khristophoros.7194:

Being able to use utilities during shroud wouldn’t really be OP or anything. You can already drop wells and go into shroud for death perception. You can already activate a spectral skill and then go into shroud. Being able to use them during it would add a little more flexibility but it wouldn’t add entirely new things that we couldn’t do before.

You skip a step by doing this. It makes everything allot quicker. I don’t think it would be OP either. I recognize that the power while in Death shroud and out of it is quite significant at the moment, being out of it is more powerful at the moment even with death perception. But the scale could be tipped if changed over. Which is completely fine since Shroud is still a resource that can be depleted.

What I meant was it’s more of a QoL buff, being able to do the things we already do more easily/faster. It doesn’t add anything radical so it shouldn’t break the game.

Oh, No it wouldn’t. I don’t disagree with you. But Spectral skills do become allot stronger as it won’t require you to drop DS to activate and they could actively add to your pool. Such as spectral grasp suddenly gives you 15% health and its animation is harder to see with the shroud smoke. Its easy to say that its the same in theory, but in practice its a different store. Also have to consider the ability to stunbreak while in DS is huge.

But again, I’m not disagreeing with you.

Khristophoros.7194:

Being able to use utilities during shroud wouldn’t really be OP or anything. You can already drop wells and go into shroud for death perception. You can already activate a spectral skill and then go into shroud. Being able to use them during it would add a little more flexibility but it wouldn’t add entirely new things that we couldn’t do before.

You skip a step by doing this. It makes everything allot quicker. I don’t think it would be OP either. I recognize that the power while in Death shroud and out of it is quite significant at the moment, being out of it is more powerful at the moment even with death perception. But the scale could be tipped if changed over. Which is completely fine since Shroud is still a resource that can be depleted.

Its a pretty involved topic that has been around for a long time now. Probably since launch but its hard for me to say since I started a few months late. At the time it popped up from time to time and it has since gained popularity. I’ve made the suggestions on multiple occasions to grant us utility in Death shroud considering that a few of our weaknesses in Death shroud come from not having utility. And by a few, I mean crippling weaknesses that seriously hinder the classes overall usability. Not a weakness that you can over come through skill like low health on an elementalist.

What Benefit is there from having utility in death shroud though and how should it be balanced? Originally Death shroud Skills apart from their auto attack(though it might have included their auto) used to cost life force to be used. This gave the mechanic more of a push pull feel to it and during the alpha stages of the necromancer it made death shroud feel rewarding to use and play well. Although this also meant that they were extremely complex. Probably not something Arena net wanted for the profession at the time. I’m of the personal opinion that complexity in itself isn’t a bad thing as long as it increases depth. The idea of “Life for power” that the necromancer is supposed to embody should be a real part of the necromancer. So the suggestion for balance should be that most utility skills on the necromancer should have a life force cost.

Added to this, I also think that Elite skills and the heal skill should be usable in Death shroud. Or just Shroud as anet is calling it now. Why the heal? well, I don’t think the heal should actually heal you. Maybe heal up your death shroud a bit, but not your health. Giving you some benefit from it that it can provide without it being a useless skill. This would allow you to summon your Blood fiend or trigger the signet of vampirism’s active ability. Even using something like Consume condition to remove conditions could be a viable option and grants the user with extremely interesting choices beyond just the utility. Allowing us access to the elite as well could be interesting. Rather than having the elite while your in death shroud, elites that transform you would just drop you out of death shroud when activated. So you could still summon flesh golem or enter Lich form to save time.

Some skill would have to be changed. Such as many of the spectral skills since they might be a bit powerful when activated in Death shroud. Other than that, having skills that cost a bit of life force while using shroud would be an excellent balance for it. Either turtle in Death shroud a bit longer, or burn it down quicker by using your skills. The choice becomes yours and will reward skilled players and still teach new players at the same time.

This also opens up new types of traits that trigger on spending life force granting more unique design for the profession. It also adds another layer of balance that can be used. if a skills is too powerful in Death shroud you can adjust numbers, recharge, cast time or even life force cost. Ultimately, it would help our overall power as well as could be health for our balance in the long run.

Bhawb.7408:

Sororita.3465:

I dont know why everyone is against jagged horrors on " Rise. "

They actually seem to stay on target, apply a steady stream of bleeding for condi necromancers and can be a great burst with the death nova trait.

They are too similar to Bone Minions, Rise! is directly worse than Bone Minions in every situation, even when you hit 5 targets, except for a Condi build and for cheesing with Death Nova. They also don’t work well for full MM builds because of the disparity between what Rise! needs (5 targets) and what MM needs (as few enemies as possible) to be fully effective. So the only time Rise! will be useful is for condi MM, a really niche build that probably doesn’t want to go Reaper, and maybe cheese builds using both Rise! and Bone Minions.

Rise! just doesn’t work with current minions. Most of the utility minions would just be too strong, Bone Fiends would give 10 projectile finishers every 3s for example, Flesh Golem would be insane, and Jagged is took weak.

The problem with a Death nova poison build is you’d want your minions to die. But it doesn’t work very well because minion cool downs are too high, require too much investment from the user and can’t sustain their damage. Which is why I agree with you.

Shambling Horrors would actually help to remedy at least part of the problem or having them spawn bone minions that you can use putrid explosion with. But even that doesn’t work because its 40 SECOND COOL DOWN! which is just insanely high!

We’re pushing 16k views on how much the axe is bad. I think Arena net gets it. I think they’re working on it now. But just in case, keep posting.

Edit: Doh! I must have been tired. I put responses instead of views.

nearlight.3064:

I thought that we could just use our normal characters and just have the elite spec track available to them… so we actually need to use the character slots in order to make a reaper? kitten thats going to be a lot of transmutation crystals to look fly during this event.

From what I’ve read. We can’t. We have to use a beta slot. We will be getting a few beta slots to make beta characters for the weekend that wont count toward the progression of our account. So we are given a duplicate of our bank and wallet. What that means is when they copy those things when you make your beta character you’ll have access to everything you put in the bank. But anything you take out wont impact your normal account in anyway. You could even use a BL skin you’ve been saving with the beta character and it will still be on your normal account. But all skins you unlock wont show up on your normal account. At least thats how it worked last time. I’m not sure if they copy the account’s stuff before hand or in its current version each time you make a new beta character. So I’d test it out first. And I wouldn’t go spending everything right away either. Air on the side of caution but be prepared. I’m hoping I’ll have access to all my normal armor because its just straight up better than the armor they give you.

I’ve gotten everything ready for the upcoming beta. If they copy our accounts again so we can use whats in our bank it will be fantastic. I decided to shelf my necormancer for the remainder of the week so that her things can remain in the bank since I’m not sure when they copy it. This will allow me access to everything she had so I can have the most powerful possible reaper I can muster. The test is real.

Also, I was watching this feel its fitting. Imagine Scar as the Reaper specialization and the hyenas as the necromancer community. I kinda feel its going to go about the same way it did for Scar in the movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkU23m6yX04

Anchoku.8142:

For Vampire to work at all, Blood Magic and healing is required, from my PoV.

I would advise against using healing power. The pay off you get from the healing vs the sacrifice in damage or defense isn’t worth it at all. You’ll be getting at most an extra 7 health a hit which is negligible.

Rym.1469:

Lily.1935:

Witch Doctor. Basically.

While I can’t say that I have not created some aspects inspired by classic Voodoo & Witch Doctor theme, I believe it has some different take on it.

If we talk about Diablo 3 Witch Doctor then I suppose while the overall theme can look quite similar, the actual gameplay would be vastly different

Theme, yes. Mechanically? Not really. Yours carries enough differences that it can stand out. Although this particular style of elite specialization isn’t for me. I’m not personally a fan of it it has some interesting and even fun sounding ideas.

Witch Doctor. Basically.

Bhawb.7408:

Nyth.3492:

In my eyes the staff is already a pretty good weapon to go with minions. I mean it could use a bit more synergy, but the ability to give them regeneration with #2 is quite good.

Staff is pretty mediocre with minions. Regen you get from a minor trait already, and it doesn’t bring anything else special.

If we did get a minion weapon it’d have to be an off-hand. Honestly though any type of support weapons we get would work with minions, so just a proper support specialization would most likely do more than a “minion” weapon.

Cough cough Ritualist Cough cough

The Demonic Spirit.3157:

I love minions very much . Even with all minions bugs at the moment , I still believe that MM is the best build in GW2. I always wanted a specific weapon for MM , modifying axe and adding torch that summons flaming minions would be amazing !

It would need to be an off hand. And it would have to be a new weapon that possibly comes with a new elite specialization dedicated to summoning or just a new weapon. I personally feel the best weapon for this would be shield. I’ve given this allot of thought. Torch isn’t bad though. Wouldn’t mind having a skill to summon jagged horrors then set them all alight to explode.

Vydahr.4285:

I actually had a thought about how the current Lich form works. Currently, it gives one stack of Stab every three seconds for three seconds. What if, instead, each stack of Stab lasts for a full twenty or so seconds and stacks up, and lasts after Lich. That way, Necro would have a legitimate source of stab on what is suppose to be a powerful elite. i don’t know how well balanced that would be, but it would almost (aaaalmost) make up for the ridiculous squish factor in Lich form

It never really made sense to me that Lich form was squishy at all. Seeing as a Lich is supposed to be really hard to kill.

This is going to be a bit of an odd suggestion but hear me out on this one.

Lich form is one of the most boring elites to us. Although its praised for its high damage its also mocked for how easy it is to be controlled in it and how easy it is to counter. I’ve always felt that using an elite slot to basically get a more powerful life blast was a real dull way to use an elite. Sure, you have 4 other skills but the duration is so short and the skills take so long to cast that t just doesn’t matter. You rarely if ever use them. Maybe as a joke but beyond that, no.

So here’s my suggestion and its going to be a pretty heavy one. This will fundamentally change how Lich is used but not its overall skills. First, change Lich into a toggle skill from a transformation. So here’s what it would look like

Lich Form: 60s cool down. Toggle Spectral skill. Your Shroud changes into Lich Form. All traits that would affect shroud effect Lich form. When you run out of Life force, Lich form goes on cool down. Gain 1 stack of stability every 3 seconds while in Lich form.

So what does this mean exactly? Well, this becomes an interesting part of your build. For starters rather than replacing your entire bar it just replaces Death shroud or reaper’s shroud. But only when its toggled. Second, the numbers would have to be adjusted so we might see a bit of a nerf there but with death perception this might not matter too much. We wouldn’t be a giant target like we are now and since we have more time we can use the other skills it gives us more frequently. It also means it wouldn’t destroy minions. So it could become an ideal elite for a minion bomber as the short cool down along with the mark could keep the pressure going. This also makes more sense with the 15% life force as you’d see an immediate benefit from using this skill as it would use your life force to fuel the form.

I’ll address some issues like Dark path and Transfusion. They are noted in my suggestion as well and they’d still function as intended. Though I would suggest switching Grim Specter from 5 to 4 and mark of horror from 4 to 5 so it can partially revive allies while curing their conditions and ripping boons.

Another Part about this skill is that it would have to look distinct from Reaper’s shroud and Death shroud. My thought was using the same Idea behind the model of Lich currently in the game but modify the look so each race and gender has a unique look to it if only slightly. Of course asura and charr could always share the same model across their respected genders and Human, Sylvari and Norn don’t need different models between the races, just genders. I’d also add Bat wings. Inspired from Lich Lord from GW1 to give it a more sinister feel to it.

This is just scratching the surface of the suggestion though. Other ideas are welcome and I think this could go from being a rather dull elite to an extremely interesting elite with allot of really unique options for the necromancer.

I’ve already made a suggestion for axe that would turn it into a hybrid weapon. As a Pure condi weapon it doesn’t really fit. As it is its sorta sitting in the middle of so many different play styles and doesn’t work for any of them very well. Its never been a very powerful weapon, by any stretch of the imagination.

How I’d change it is I’d first make the skill one into a chain skill. 1st damage valn, 2nd damage valn, 3rd damage and boon corruption. Second skill would damage at its 600 range but also damage up to 3 targets at melee range as well as become a whirl finisher. This makes it a very good hybrid weapon but still very functional as a power weapon if needed. Making it stronger the closer you get like reverse mesmer gs or ranger lb could give it a unique feel to it. Unlike Life blast which has always been just really really off.

Bhawb.7408:

Fun fact, way back in the day But of Corpse had very tentative plans to talk with a balance dev about Necromancer on a show, since back then Chaplan (I believe is the correct name) used to watch the show (this was back with Gibbly and Tenderly), but it never happened because they wouldn’t do it unless every profession would be represented.

But yeah, it will never happen. They wouldn’t do it unless it was on their terms, and their terms would end up giving us a type of show we simply wouldn’t be happy with. Its a lose-lose situation for them, there is no way they could give us what we want, so its better to not do it.

Its not the Necromancer community’s responsibility to create a podcast for every other profession and discuss them in major detail. Its their respected communities that need to do that.

I can’t go anywhere without hearing about how terrible the necromancer is. WP is talking about it, the necromancer forums have been talking about it for years now, the Revenant forums are talking about it and now Elementalist forums. I can’t just enjoy anything. I constantly have to be reminded of the forgotten step child left in the attic.

Edit: Nevermind. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place. XD ops!

Fade.1743:

Lily.1935:

Fade.1743:

But that trait shares a slot with their huge lifesteal. And AoE Ferocity competes with skill speed boost.

Of course in PvE, it’s going to be take AoE Ferocity in a group unless another rev is doing it.

they still get life steal outside of that trait. They have a heal and one of the minor traits steals life.

One that’s nearly equivalent to the Necromancer Blood minor. The only difference is that revenant can only get that life steal if their target has vuln on them. Otherwise, they don’t get it.

Also, on your comment about the strength of Enchanted Daggers. Yes, it’s strong, but it takes a minimum of 6 seconds to get that full health back as the daggers have an ICD of 1 second. So, it’s a great Heal over Time Effect, but it can’t defend against burst damage.

Keeping valn on someone honestly shouldn’t be hard at all. Especially seeing as your auto attack with sword applies Valn. And thats true, the ICD does hurt that skill allot. Its base heal might need to be raised and the life stealing lowered then if it becomes a problem. But the trait is about 55 healing with about 60 damage while the necromancer’s, if you take both in blood is about 60 healing and 80 damage. Which isn’t a terribly big difference. Plus the Revenant gets impossible odds.

Rym.1469:

Actually, Shiro’s healing skill is almost non-existant, so Revenant will need every bit of healz. I don’t mind them getting Life Siphon.

that heal heals for 6,488 in total. That’s a very sizable heal.

Fade.1743:

But that trait shares a slot with their huge lifesteal. And AoE Ferocity competes with skill speed boost.

Of course in PvE, it’s going to be take AoE Ferocity in a group unless another rev is doing it.

they still get life steal outside of that trait. They have a heal and one of the minor traits steals life.

Sigmoid.7082:

not fussed because they cant take it with the +20% damage trait like necro can. From what i see rev still lacks damage mods. Necro also still has a higher life steal potential on it.

What plus 20% damage trait? You mean Close to death? No, revenant has Swift Determination which is the exact same trait. Oh, and aoe Ferocity.

Kidel.2057:

Mallyx doesn’t work like Necro at all. The purpose of Mallyx is to get conditions and copy them, and put some torment.

Also Necro was never the best condi class (and neither Revenant imo)

I beg to differ! http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Contagion

Compared to my play time of my engineer, Guardian and Mesmer my I’ve played my necromancer about doubly of each of their times combine. Mesmer sits at about 500 hours, Engineer at about 500 and Guardian about 300. My necromancer is close to 2.6k hours. I don’t have nearly as much experience with the necromancer as many others on the forums but I have broken out to a point that everything I do with the profession is second nature to me and have gained a much greater understanding of the profession.

One issue that I’ve noticed is no matter what build I choose for my necromancer, no matter how good I am, it always under preforms when compared to other professions. Not a single one of the necromancer’s builds functions particularly well and they suffer for it. They lack party support, damage, defenses mobility and are easily countered. I out preform myself when I play my secondary professions. You want to learn how bad the necromancer is, play another profession for a while.

To start, I don’t play a thief. I haven’t really touched one in a while. And I just got an extra character slot thanks to pre-ordering Heart of Thorns so I thought I’d make one.

But this post isn’t about that. This is more an idea I had for a Elite Specialization that the thief could have. Though I Highly doubt they’ll get anything like this with the heavy suggestions of Rifle or Staff being the weapon they’re being given. But we’ll see.

So my idea for an Elite specialization Takes inspiration from my farming days back in GW1 with my assassin and from the D&D Assassin. In both casses you could play the assassin as a Sort of Caster. for GW1 everyone knew of the farming build the perma Sin which used Shadow form to be immune to almost everything that was thrown at them. That build favored spells from other professions or in some cases PvE only skills which in GW2 are racial skills. It often used a staff or sometimes sword shield(Sword shield or Axe shield were both commonly used by casters for their passive buffs such as enchantment duration and energy). Another build I found fun was the deadly arts assassin who favored a staff, scepter or spear to cast ranged deadly arts skills at range while summoning more assassins to fight for them. While in D&D the assassin could create portals to move long distances or stab someone in the back while remaining in the other room.

So the Type of Gameplay that a new specialization for the thief could be more in line of this deceptive magical method of assassination and movement. The Specialization in my idea would use either a Scepter or Staff. But preferably scepter since it opens up some interesting weapon combinations. Its F1 skill could change to teleport your target to you rather then you moving to them. Many of their skills could be designed around manipulating their targets at range allowing them more control over the field at range than just great movement at melee.

Some Skills they could have could be like Secret door which would act like a ground targeted shorter ranged portal for allies to use. But unlike Portal you don’t have to individually set each door. Just set the ranged one and the other will open at your location. Allowing allies to move through the door with you for a short duration. This could also traited to stealth allies who walk through it as well as stealthiness the door as to increase the sneakiness of your allies. Another utility skill could be able to grant all your melee skills a flanking strike against your foe without actually being by them. And of course the legendary Shadow Form that we all know and love could be their elite. Potentially making them immune to all damage sources like it did in GW1. That might be a bit powerful, but it wont be nearly as busted as it was in GW1 since you wouldn’t be able to reduce its cooldown so far to the point where you could cast it before it ends.

Traits could be interesting as well, giving you strange abilities to help your ability to kill. Such as Blindness causing damage on being triggered. Not very high since the Thief can already spam blind pretty well. But even a low damage trigger would be noticeable.

What do you guys think? Am I off my rocker? Or does this sound like it could be fun to play. Do note, I haven’t played something like a thief majorly since the GW1’s assassin. So please don’t be too harsh.

Zetsumei.4975:

I think we should highlight that while we did initially ask for terror to be moved down that was because we wanted the old version of the lingering curses trait where it sounded like all condis would have +100% duration while on the scepter weapon set. But they nerfed the trait AND moved terror down.

Actually, we didn’t want it moved down. Toward the end of the discussion on the traits People wanted Terror to stay at grandmaster and fused with Fear of Death(once Master of terror) and increase its damage to compete with Lingering Curse in a more bursty role.

Shiro wasn’t quite like the assassins we see in GW1. He was very much more like what we see a warrior do in GW2. You also have to remember that how professions are defined and what they can and can’t do changes pretty drastically as time goes on. Since Shiro was from a different time period, even compared to the first game, the Roll of the assassin in Cantha might have been more loosely defined back when Shiro was first alive than during the time about 250 years ago. Shiro could hold his own against a tone of people. He wasn’t like a thief or even very much like a assassin from the first game. He was the kind of Assassin who’d walk right into the base of the enemy, kicking down the front door and slaughter everyone in his wake. He was ruthless. Not one to hide in the shadows.

Shiro Even has a thing about facing his enemy head on. He even says “This time I’m facing you.” in the story, heavily suggesting that stabbing someone in the back is cowardly and he doesn’t like it.

Basically to answer you question. No.. He isn’t bringing stealth.

Pelopidas.2140:

I was running spectral terrormancer with dhuumfire for a long time before the patch…with 6/4/0/0/4. In fact i dont recall anyone posting that build ever in the forums or metabattle.
Anyway i think you are too absolute in some of your thoughts, but im too tired to respond further..everyone is entitled to their opinion i guess…:)

I don’t know about metabattle since I’ve never used it but there where quite a few threads about it when it came out. I keep a very close eye on that sort of thing since Conid is how I prefer to play.

Khristophoros.7194:

Spiteful Spirit should give the necro retaliation on pulse while in shroud and also apply confusion to nearby foes when entering shroud. That would be true to the spirit of spiteful spirit, heh.

I miss SS as well.

I’m not having an issue with their DPS. Running full condi. The only issue I’m really having is torment needs to last a bit longer in PvE. Arena net really needs to split the skills for PvE and PvP. And grant higher condi duration for some stuff. Torment is just weaker than bleed in PvE most the time. It doesn’t need to be such a short duration.

Pelopidas.2140:

First condi set has only one skill for life force(scepter 3).

Thats not a reason, just a description. Condi builds on necromancer were treditionally weak. And it was only during a short short time when Dhuumfire triggered on critical hit when it was even remotely strong. And it was the same time that arena net back peddled and said “We want them to be bursty, not attrition.” which was a serious slap in the face to the community at the time.

Pelopidas.2140:

Second, the old terrormancer, if you wanted to go dps, you’d pick Spite and Curses leaving only 2 points possible for Soul Reaping (no spectral armor at 50% hp and no soul marks.) The possible lf regen was through the one trait in Curses that provided 1% lf with 33% in critical hits(garbage imo), and spectral skills, but spectal attunement was competing with terror back then and so did banshees wail. From a theorycrafting point of view it was hard to get lf regen stuff+and do good condi dps.

Except it was acceptable to go 30/20/0/0/20 (or 6/4/0/0/4) at that time as well. After the nerf to have it trigger only in Death shroud’s life blast it became more likely for you to run 0/6/4/0/4. Some people did run 6/6/0/0/2 but it wasn’t nearly as universal as you think. And people were still complaining about the poor life generation. Just because it was traditionally bad doesn’t mean that its intended.

Pelopidas.2140:

Third, power builds have insane lf regen compared to condi, embedded in the weapon skills. I think the devs did that for a reason

You mean life force generation. And they really don’t unless you’re willing to sacrifice a few skills and slots. Also, the devs have been wrong about the necromancer. It seems more often than they where right. Such as “Stability isn’t in your design.” or “Death shroud is enough.” Both incredibly flawed and extremely wrong statement. I used to agree with them, but after 2k+ hours on my necromancer alone I can’t possible agree with them.

Pelopidas.2140:

No need to take FitG as terrormancer, in fact i prefer dhuumfire. I completely dislike the fact that spectral attunement competes with 50% fear duration, but that seems to go along with the mindset i described above

Someone’s never had the pleasure of being CCed into the ground, hard with no chance of getting up. Seriously.. Take Foot in the Grave. And you also want Vital Persistence. Thats 3 traits that are all desired in the exact same build in the exact same spot.

Pelopidas.2140:

We passively apply Vulnerability when enemy is below 33%. Also personally ive tried Rending Shroud instead of Chill of Death(i know, blasphemy) and it produces good vuln, if i manage to cast SoS and get couple of stacks out of a corruption its not bad at all. ‘’ You’re better off staying out of death shroud unless you absolutely have to.’’ What? in a dhuumfire build ? most of our burst comes from going into deathshroud.

No, I’m saying a dhuumfire build is bad, don’t take Dhuumfire at all. Its terrible.

Pelopidas.2140:

Dunno whats up with barbed precision, robert gee said that from the calculations it was too much with 66%.

Calculations are different than practice. In practical situations we have to look at that and can’t strictly go off calculations.

Pelopidas.2140:

Giving some feedback on things that i find wrong/good/or disagree with. It was said that barbed precision was too good with the specialization changes, not the reaper. I also thought terrormancer is destroyed with the placement of terror, but terror is now stronger than before, probably due to vulnerability. Actually a condi dhuumfire-terror-signet necro is very strong right now, i wonder when more people will discover it^^
Weakening shroud is one of the most awesome traits we have right now, so much weakness uptime is crazy. If it were protection instead of weakness everyone would go nuts over it, when weakness and protection are pretty close in damage mitigation. Parasitic contagion is also a cool trait, no need to remove it(read your other suggestion later, doesnt sound bad). Parasitic Contagion might become useful in the ‘’challenging content’‘, sustained heal+burst heal (epidemic). Unholy Sanctuary can become too good, i doubt they will buff the heal. Its secondary effect is more important anyway imo. The soul reaping line is very good as it is. Also dhuumfire would become OP with more stacks/application i think, already if you get 2-3 hits in you can reach 1-1,5k burns. Using utility skills with the cost of life force…hmm think of high lf regen spectral skills…endless DS^^
Signets should provide their passive effect through DS. Whirl in light fields can remove conditions from allies, it isnt that bad with reaper. Although i also prefer water field on WoB. CPC traited right now is pretty strong, i do not see any reason for change. Signet of undeath 3% every 3seconds is too much imo. Scepter/dagger and generally condi builds aren’t meant to have strong LF generation, so i disagree with dagger4 giving LF. I agree with WoD and WoP. The suggestion for Spectral Walk isnt too bad, maybe a bit too good in fact, and Spectral Grasp suggestions sounds awesome. I dont really care about minions, but from what ive hearing they are very good atm (except kittenty AI).

1-2k damage is incredibly low for a condition spec. Like, INSANELY low. Considering that I get about 3k on average with my bleeds and if going for long its 5k and about 2k poison this is incredibly unimpressive. Even when taking into considering the physical damage from Life blast. Compared to other professions its even weaker than that since many professions can burst out 9-10k condition damage while at the same time sustaining 5-7k DPS and do it much quicker than we can. Considering I’ve played multiple condition builds on multiple professions there is absolutely nothing impressive about the necromancer’s build. Even a terror dhuumfire combo is extremely low damage in comparison to other professions. Its actually straight up laughable. Signets builds are great at the moment but not super impressive either.

As for Condi builds, to say they’re not supposed to have good life force generation is complete and utter nonsense. Considering that A condition build is supposed to be our method of attrition to wear down our opponent. Without decent decent access to life force it becomes anti synergistic.

For a Terror build you’d generally want to take Foot in the grave, not Dhuumfire. And you’d want all 3 of the master traits because of hope poor the condition builds are at generating life force. Reduced recharge rate of DS traits, increase lifeforce Generation and the bonus duration. Its why I’ve made the suggestions I’ve made. To make the build at least usable. With Dhuumfire triggering on the other skills it lets you burst. It allows you to burst out your damage rather than just try to sustain a piddly little 1-2k burn. Which is another area the necromancer is sorely lacking in. The capability of bursting with condition damage. Along with the extremely high cool down of both Life Transfer and Tainted shackles you wouldn’t be able to sustain that burning even with 100% condition duration.

To add to that, Condition builds have incredibly poor valn stacking capabilities as compared to other condition builds of other professions. Especially when compared to engineer. Yes a Dhuumfire build Could do it, but From my tests its not even remotely worth it. You’re better off staying out of death shroud unless you absolutely have to.

Barbed precision? Well we’re not a warrior, engineer or anything like that. We attack 2-3 times slower then they do so the amount of bleeds we can get off of it is extremely low in comparison. So why should we be expected to use an almost identical trait when we proc it half to a third of the time compared to other profession?

I’m actually quite comfortable with the revenant. Its far stronger than a necromancer for sure. Especially when you consider you have a support spec, defensive spec and condition spec. You have neither of the raw damaging specializations.

Rym.1469:

Personally, I’m not a fan of most of those, but that’s just me.

What would you suggest?

Kodama.6453:

Lily.1935:

Moa still kills all your minions. Plus the death nova has pretty low damage. Totally serious. If you have a better suggestion I’ll be happy to hear it. I imagine since you’re going to provide criticism you have a great alternative, right? I’m all ears.

So there will be 2 professions which are able to beat this build and they have to take a specific elite skill to do so with a really long cd. I just don’t think this will be balanced. About alternative: I never said all you are saying is wrong or something like that. I’m fine by reduce the casting time of minions or shadow fiend teleport to be insta cast. But I don’t get the point why the jagged horrors have to get rid of their degeneration. It’s just a way to cap you’re ability to hold minions and it is fine as it is. You are able to have 8 jagged horrors at the same time, but it needs investment, you have to heal them up. In GW1 all minions worked like this, all had a natural degeneration and to be a true minion master with 12 minions (yeah even the minions in gw1 which only could be casted while using a corpse of an creature didn’t reach the number of 14) you had to heal them the whole time to keep them alive.

This isn’t GW1. Minions in GW1 would often be replaced as soon as they were destroyed, if not sooner. The issue I have with current minions is you don’t have the zergling strategy with them or the minion bomber strategy. It just doesn’t work, I’ve tried. You sacrifice too much to try that sort of build with little to no pay off. I’ve had other suggests for minions but that would require a whole redesign of them which would take more work than just helping jagged horrors. Also, minions in GW1 were far tougher and hit much harder than they do in GW2.

zapv.8051:

This pretty much covers everything. Really good list of changes. Can’t say that I disagree with any of them.

Really? Because I don’t fully agree with myself on Cultist’s Fervor. I’m still debating that one because it might just be too powerful or too weak. I’m not sure which and alternatives would be interesting to hear on how we might want to affect utility while in death shroud.

apoidea.7095:

Lily.1935:

Thats true. But it was a motivation to take Curses. And at the moment I’m considering not taking curses at all on a condition build with reaper. Their multiple attacks along with dhuumfire combine with either death magic or spite has me covered pretty well. I don’t really want to take curses when not taking it should almost feel like a loss. At the moment it looks to be a burden to take it.

That’s a bit of an exaggeration…sure, chilling darkness would’ve been an added incentive to take the Curses line with reaper, but I’m positive that the main motivation for taking Curses for a condi reaper is to get Barbed Precision, Terror (or Path of Corruption), and Weakening Shroud. You already get chill on fear with the Reaper, it’s not as if Reaper desperately needed the chilling darkness to work.

Buuuuuuut I agree with the majority of necro community…this nerf was unwarranted and mostly only killed build diversity without really balancing anything (as far as we know; but maybe reaper has more blinding than we think?).

Well, Don’t misunderstand me. I was actually saying I already had little to no motivation to take Curses as is with a reaper. That change just seals the deal. If I want boon removal Signet of suffering is always available combine with high vulnerability stacking which Curses doesn’t provide. At the moment curses really doesn’t provide me with enough to really want to take it or feel good about taking it.

We had one, no one was ever in it.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Incidentally, Moa does not kill Jagged Horrors, since they aren’t tied to an equipped skill.

Interesting. Honestly I don’t use minions very often because I don’t like the way they feel. Either way, it shouldn’t be a problem.

ColinJohanson.2394:

OutOfMyMind.9613:

I am just wondering if the revenants made will be instant level 80s or will we have to level them up. I can see a point in letting them level to test any problems with that, but that will make WvW or any high end PvE content unplayable unless we use consumables to level them. I’d rather not do that as I am saving the consumables for when HoT goes live.

They are instant level 80, fully geared, with an inventory full of other gear options you can swap in and play with.

:D

I <3 you guys! Ohhhh. I can’t wait! I’m going to try zerker and sinister and rabid and celestial and clerics and everything in between.