Guild Wars 2

bigmonto.4215:

That is interesting. What types of rune do you run?

Atm for WvW I’ve always used Sunless for the extra fear for setting things up plus, the -condi duration. Runes are pretty flexible so I can go out and experiment with a lot of them. Lately for Spvp I’ve switched between Traveler’s and Strength.

bigmonto.4215:

I don’t doubt you. We seems to have different experience. The Necro’s dagger 4 hasn’t really give me a whole lot of trouble yet. Perhaps, the ones I face aren’t that good, or that LB f1 is a easier hit on Necros. I do notice using celestial I can’t really burst anything down, and I am a bit easier to die. What is your build?

In Spvp It’s the same setup i run in WvW. 0/2/6/6/0. the 2 in arms is pretty good for a hybrid spec since a extra stack of bleed on crit (% chance) and 50% Bleed Duration through deep cuts(longer bleeds=higher stacks, and more damage over all). Runes and sigil are flexible and changeable on the fly. Atm I’m running 2x Purity, 1x Battle and 1x Doom, battle being on the LB, and Doom being on the Sword.

In my experience if you’re looking for direct damage burst with big numbers like Zerker damage, Hybrid isn’t supposed to be doing those numbers. I know my Sword 3 hits for a lot though, when I get people below 50% (4k-5k), and my autos hit anywhere between 700-1k+. My build’s damage scales up the longer a fight goes and rotating between longbow and sword abilities, people end up scumbing if they don’t kill me or pressure me intensely.

bigmonto.4215:

Lucentfir.7430:

bigmonto.4215:

For pvp I tried Celestial ammy on the shout heal build (0/0/5/6/3) In theory it should work as the 30% boon duration allow it to stack might very well. At 20 might stacks, it has 2200+ power and 1300+ conditional damage with respectable crit and crit dam. But it never work quite as well as the pure conditional shout heal build.

Pure Condition builds are often hard countered by people with a consistent removal, or have a lot -condition duration%. I’ve ran settlers before, it feels pretty underwealming since your direct damage hits like wet tissue paper. If you meet a necro who has any sort of idea what he/she is doing you’re going to lose. Hybrid builds are split so you aren’t being negated entirely.

Really I haven’t face such a Necro. The problem with power based attacks is that it is countered by many things: toughness, protection, and of course healing, and requires 3 stats type to be effective. If you run hybrid, it means both your power based damage and condition based damage are weak, and you are weak. You are unlikely to burst them down with power, and your conditional dam doesn’t do much most of the time. You are also more likely to die. This is exactly what I found in my play experience.

Sure there might be a pure conditional cleanse counters, but hybrids are probably even easier to counter. A warrior or a guardian is by default a counter to a hybrid. The default high armor will nullify most of your power attacks, since your condition damage is weaker, they can afford some mistake in cleanse your conditions. Where as in a conditional counter, they pretty much have to cleanse condition at the right time, and at the right order otherwise they will be in a serious trouble as I can dish out a lot more conditions than they can cleanse most of the time.

I’ve been running full celestial for a while with S/X + LB, and I’m running healing shouts. necros are really a direct counter to full Condi Warriors, build high enough stacks of bleeds or long duration burns, they can easily transfer it back to you with off hand dagger and staff 4 skill, not to mention you need to get through DS too which acts like a second health bar. The only guardians that can give me a run for my money is a Zerker meditation guardian that plays really well. Any other sort of warrior isn’t really a problem for me. As far as damage, it’s never low unless it’s consistent boon stripping since I stack might easily over 10-20 stacks(without strength runes mind you), and Celestial still has ferocity, but cut by a large portion by the crit damage changes. Nonetheless I’m not hard countered by anything in terms of dealing damage. I’m not weak in any area, but I’m not the best in any areas either.

Xhean.3452:

is power guardian with amp wrath any good? I mean is it enough of a dps increase from that?

But as a conclusion if you’re not running meditations, Pack runes are great, if you are running meds you could go with something else?

Well if you’re running Carrion then yes, adding in doom sigils too. Ticks that burn for 700-800 per sec is pretty good, it’s just not for pve setting since Zerker is a better choice.

Correct if you’re not running meditations then it’s alright, if you’re running meditations with focused mind, you might be better with something else like travelers shrug

bigmonto.4215:

For pvp I tried Celestial ammy on the shout heal build (0/0/5/6/3) In theory it should work as the 30% boon duration allow it to stack might very well. At 20 might stacks, it has 2200+ power and 1300+ conditional damage with respectable crit and crit dam. But it never work quite as well as the pure conditional shout heal build.

Pure Condition builds are often hard countered by people with a consistent removal, or have a lot -condition duration%. I’ve ran settlers before, it feels pretty underwealming since your direct damage hits like wet tissue paper. If you meet a necro who has any sort of idea what he/she is doing you’re going to lose. Hybrid builds are split so you aren’t being negated entirely.

oZii.2864:

@Lalangamena makes good points if you can get double burn duration the it might be better then pack runes. Then the uptime is very good but you have to look at what you give up. Pack runes are great IMO and really fill the one thing Dps guard lacks which is fury.

Mhm, personally I really think Flame Legion Rune Set is meant for Power burn builds now, and people who go 6 into zeal for Amplified Wrath, and Fiery Wrath, which gives a nice boost in damage(17% Damage Modifier, 22% if you’re running GS and picking up the trait Zealous Blade). 6 in zeal already gives +Condition Duration of 30%, with Runes of Flame Legion that becomes 60% for Burning Duration. Which is pretty lengthy increase. If you’re playing in WvW area use condition duration food and you have 100% Burn Duration.

As far as DPS Guard is concerned they have access to fury through meditations(Focused mind trait), if you’re talking about a non-meditation build then I guess yeah Pack Runes are a good choice.

Aza.2105:

Valor- Courageous Return needs to be changed.

Explanation:

It lacks synergy with the rest of the minor traits in the line. Here are examples of synergy in the other trait lines:

Zeal- Zealot’s Speed (cast a symbol when you drop below 50% hp), Symbolic Exposure (symbols now cast vulnerability), Symbolic Power (symbols now do 10% more damage).

Each trait adds on to the previous one giving it depth. But with courageous return, its disruptive to the synergy between Valorous Defense and Might of the Protector. Possible changes that could be more fitting would be:

*Courageous Return:

A. Deal 7% more damage while under the effect of might
B. Gain swiftness for 10 secs each time aegis is removed
C. Enemies are crippled for 8 secs each time aegis is removed
D. Gain 5secs of stability when aegis is removed
E. When aegis is removed you become immune to cripple, chill and immobilized for 10 seconds*

As much as those skills sound nice, they look a bit to powerful to be a minor trait in Valor’s master line. A is straight up copy pasta of Strength rune 6th set, B looks alright except for the duration would probably be 3-5s, C doesn’t really fit the name of the trait, D seems to powerful and just way too strong for a minor Valor trait, E= Zerker stance against movement impairment….wayyy too strong.

I know it’s a wish list and all but if they were planning to actually replace Courageous Return with one of the three traits, they would be Shaved down by quite a bit. But then a again it’s a wishlist :P and one can only wish/dream.

The only thing(s) I wish for is a Kindled Zeal remake since it’s obsolete compared to Amplified Wrath. Another one would be to change Retaliatory Subconscious into a new trait that procs Stand your Ground When CC’d. If it happens move it up to to master trait and move Supreme Justice down to adept tier. General change to have some condition removal on all weapons like not complete removal but things like removing 1 stack of bleed or knocking off a fixed duration poison or burn upon landing said skills. Last thing would be some soft CC, not a lot, just a little bit initially to help builds that don’t run hammer or Traveler/Speed to keep up.

Pre-change Dhuumfire was borken in WvW(1v1s/roaming/small group) setting, with as much control and soft cc the Necromancer has, before there was no real skill to it except to passively make sure you crit every 10s. With food 40% condi duration increase on top of the 30% from spite trait line you had a really long burn duration iirc 7s burn. on a icd of 10s. Burns already do over 800+ damage a tick, and when you throw fear on top of that it’s another 1k damage, rounded up you do 2k damage a sec with those two alone; not including bleed, poison, and torment. Post change Dhuumfire is a lot more skillful, since it’s controlled and you know what to look for to help avoid the proc(LB 1)Spvp wise Necro’s are a lot more balanced. Though atm most people are playing engineers for conditions as far as I can see.

JoeytheHutt.1742:

Lucentfir.7430:

In that case they don’t want to be bothered because they don’t have the ability to shut the supposed 12 year old up in a duel, ..

No offence, but statements like this is a prime example of what I rather not have in mapchat.
Sorry.
Carry on

Did you actually take the time to read the entire thing or did you snip it?

I think the people against dueling in PvE to the point where they’re making up situations about twelve year olds spamming them with duel invites, and whispers “duel me brah, or r u scared?”, Are probably exclusively PvE players that have never experienced PvP in GW2. In that case they don’t want to be bothered because they don’t have the ability to shut the supposed 12 year old up in a duel, and even with a decline system they don’t want it because that would further reveal their inability. Even with ignore function to stop whisper spamming, or even report function, they don’t want it because they don’t want to get called out for their inability. What’s wrong with just saying “I don’t want to duel right now”, or"yeah okay sure, whatever." to their immature attitude and text?

This for the people on the forums trying to use every excuse they can not to get a feature some/a lot of players are asking for.

Tbh now, after sometime thinking about it, i think Anet should add more conditions removals, and some of them to weapons and traits. Make them specific condition removals kind of like Engi “Overcharged Shot/Rocket boots”, Ele’s “Drop and Roll”, things like that. Make them active for things like stacks of bleeding third chain hit on auto removes a 1 stack of bleeding. That way it’s a little bit more of a leveled playing field.

I think the people against dueling in PvE to the point where they’re making up situations about twelve year olds spamming them with duel invites, and whispers “duel me brah, or r u scared?”, Are probably exclusively PvE players that have never experienced PvP in GW2. In that case they don’t want to be bothered because they don’t have the ability to shut the supposed 12 year old up in a duel, and even with a decline system they don’t want it because that would further reveal their inability. Even with ignore function to stop whisper spamming, or even report function, they don’t want it because they don’t want to get called out for their inability. What’s wrong with just saying “I don’t want to duel right now”, or"yeah okay sure, whatever." to their immature attitude and text?

Also the thing with someone who beats people that don’t know PvP very well and gloat about it are normally trashy players who need a outlet to feel better about themselves after getting stomped by better players. To be honest this is the same exact thing with pvp players to PvE, with dungeon runs. You get called out for being a noob if you don’t bring a certain gear set, trait setup, and the people who love to kick you out of a arah dungeon near the end, with PvE elitism. Those are the types of people that will get their pride hurt when they get stomped by a better PvP players; who know how to handle real players and not same predicable AI.

/2 cent

Like I said lets test it in Spvp to prove your point. You play a power bunker build with damage multipliers, and I’ll play my condition build with additional condition application. This is kind of like the thing that people say looks good on paper, but plays differently in-game. So i wanna test it against someone that knows how to play, a power bunker build. it’s pointless to try to point out things on the forums anyway.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lucentfir.7430:

coglin.1867:

Always find it funny when folks call condition spam as a bad thing, but spamming direct damage skills some how is magically different. Talk about a clear display of unreasonable bias.

So do you have any evidence that power bunkers do less damage? Or as was mentioned above, are we going on the " cause I said so " system some more?

Power-, Protection, Armor, Weakness, % Damage Reduction,=Less damage against foes(note i left dodge and block out because people want to bring in the application thing.)
Conditions: Cleanses, – Condition Duration(only through Runes, and impairment conditions on traits)= Only two ways to deal with conditions. Either mitigate or remove conditions.= Higher damage since no real stat that helps mitigate the damage conditions do.

On the boosting front:
Power- Ferocity, crit rates, Sigil of Force, % damage traits, % damage runes, Vulnerability, Might
Conditions- crit rates (in conjunction with traits/sigils, on its own, no noticeable effect), Condition Duration, Might.

Hmmm…..

And how do you get that? Oh yeah by sacrificing defensive stats! Yeaah! Oh and they’re still mitigated by, protection, weakness and % damage reduction!

Conditions through runes and sigils= even more application! Woooooo who needs % damage amplification when you can just stack even more damaging conditions consistently?

coglin.1867:

Always find it funny when folks call condition spam as a bad thing, but spamming direct damage skills some how is magically different. Talk about a clear display of unreasonable bias.

So do you have any evidence that power bunkers do less damage? Or as was mentioned above, are we going on the " cause I said so " system some more?

Power-, Protection, Armor, Weakness, % Damage Reduction,=Less damage against foes(note i left dodge and block out because people want to bring in the application thing.)
Conditions: Cleanses, – Condition Duration(only through Runes, and impairment conditions on traits)= Only two ways to deal with conditions. Either mitigate or remove conditions.= Higher damage since no real stat that helps mitigate the damage conditions do.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lucentfir.7430:

You should play a power build yourself, vs a condi bunker( a decent one), because I’m getting tired of explaining it. Condition spam, in which case you apply mass amounts of conditions to targets, bleeds,poison, torment, burn, confusion(3-4 of those conditions), and lots of long duration movement impairment conditions, which act as a cover for your damage. You have to reliably hit the person to make a impact on your opponent with direct damage, if you can’t you’re not going to kill anyone who moves around(Hence why stun based specs are able to kill people).

Point is though you can spam conditions on someone because it’s abundant from many sources of trait, weapons skills and utilities, varying in different effects. Direct damage you can spam your key abilities all you want when they’re off CD, but if you aren’t hitting them, you aren’t doing any damage good damage to match the damage that is being done to you.

Done so. Was no harder than a Power bunker because I knew exactly what to dodge, what to cleanse, and what to ignore as “acceptable damage.”

Both Power and Condition builds have specific attacks you should dodge. If you’re wasting your dodges and condition cleanses on auto-attacks (as I suspect you are), then it should be extremely obvious that the problem isn’t conditions, but rather your own play.

On both Power and Condition builds, if you aren’t hitting them, you aren’t doing any damage. I fail to see how either one is more “spammable” than the other. In both cases, you have key cooldowns and once you use them, you’re stuck auto-attacking.

I know when to cleanse, i don’t waste my cleanses on things like 2-3 stacks of bleeding and a small duration of poison, i save my cleanses for large stacks that go over 5+ . Power bunker does low damage, and most condi builds that aren’t warriors are ranged so you’ll be easily hitting your target compared to melee. I’ve played both condi bunker and power bunker, it’s much easier to kill things with Condition specs rather then power bunker. If you want to test it maybe we can play a few rounds in spvp if you want. You can play power bunker and i can play my condition spec :P. it’s obvious this discussion is going no where after all.

dancingmonkey.4902:

bobomb.5209:

What other stat can literally double your damage? It’s called Ferocity. but doubling condition damage isn’t dependent on precision as well.

You mean like condition duration, that increases condition damage by 100% ? But you wish to ignore precision which in its weakest case is a 22% total damage increase? I assume your aware of the damage percentage increase of precision on condition builds right? I mean it is posted on the thread in which it was broke down. Yet you declare a solid 122% at minimum damage increase has no value?

Lucentfir.7430:

The application is spammable

Can I ask you to define for us the difference that suggest conditions are “spam” while every direct damage button mashing or consistent repeat of attacks is called what? I mean you have a generic buzz word for both cases right? Or is it just spam as well?

You should play a power build yourself, vs a condi bunker( a decent one), because I’m getting tired of explaining it. Condition spam, in which case you apply mass amounts of conditions to targets, bleeds,poison, torment, burn, confusion(3-4 of those conditions), and lots of long duration movement impairment conditions, which act as a cover for your damage. You have to reliably hit the person to make a impact on your opponent with direct damage, if you can’t you’re not going to kill anyone who moves around(Hence why stun based specs are able to kill people).

Point is though you can spam conditions on someone because it’s abundant from many sources of trait, weapons skills and utilities, varying in different effects. Direct damage you can spam your key abilities all you want when they’re off CD, but if you aren’t hitting them, you aren’t doing any damage good damage to match the damage that is being done to you.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Sigil of Bursting is a % increase on the stat, not the damage. For example, it takes 1,000 condition damage and makes it 1,060. This adds 3 damage/bleed tick, 6/poison tick, and 15/burning tick in that situation.

Okay defeated there, always thought it was 6%to outgoing condition damage

Dodge a power attack? No problem, here’s another. Seems just as “spammable” and “unavoidable” to me. I’ve seen loads of power builds that don’t so much rely on “burst”. Spreading out the attacks doesn’t mean you deal any less damage, but it does mean you are less vulnerable to active defenses like evades or channeled blocks. Condition builds are virtually always spreading their attacks out because if they simply bursted, a single cleanse could wipe out their damage after they landed it. It also takes more time for condition builds to kill, so there is no good reason to “burst.” The Time To Kill remains about the same either way, so why open yourself up to more than you have to?

Yes dodge a power attack, Zerker damage will always out damage a soldier/pure power spec. If you don’t have crit do not expect to kill anything unless they stand still. Condition builds take time? So do power builds no matter how you cut it both take time to kill things, Condition damage isn’t hampered by any stat like toughness is, and there’s no real active mitigation to make them do less damage, all it needs to do is to tick damage, until removed by condition removal. A full condition spec will have it’s bleeds tick for over 110+ damage for each stack of bleeding, plus whatever other damage source, and lets not forget the hits themselves do do a small bit of damage to.

“Previously applied conditions” are not something that it makes sense to be able to dodge. Does it make sense to be able to dodge an attack after it already hit you? What about blocking that Kill Shot three seconds after it hit? Should you suddenly negate a large portion of that damage? No.

Normally there’s a tell when you’re being killshotted, it’s channeled and you can see it happening with a animation giving you time to dodge, block, or blind. If you get spiked by it you didn’t react fast enough and you got hit by it. Previous applied conditions…am i supposed to avoid every auto attack, and every hard to predict AoE condition application skill? Or conditions that get applied to me with a auto attack crit, and low CD condition application abilities(that come off CD in half the time my removal comes up?) Poor comparison.

You seem to think that “power builds deal X damage per hit and conditions deal X damage per hit and Y damage over time”. Here’s a hint; they don’t. Condition attacks deal Z+Z+Z+Z+Z that adds up to <X.

The way you’re putting it, you’re only using bleeds, but you’re not adding any other conditions like poison, torment, burning, or confusion(On proc), picking up 3-4 of those. All that adds up to a dps of 1.4k-2k damage a sec, with decent stacks. Power builds are deal damage per hit, but after armor is calculated, and if protection is accounted for or not.

Here’s a hint, though, on condition builds and survivability. It isn’t a bonus; it’s a requirement.

If that’s so then there should be no reason for all the soft CC, and and abundant sources of application then. Then Berserkers require survivablity as well so they can effectively get their damage in, by your logic.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lucentfir.7430:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Juba.8406:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Killface.1896:

Remove dire stat and give all that have that gear a change to pick new gear for game balance,problem solved you cant be super tanky and dps like a boss

By the same logic, shouldn’t Soldier’s gear be removed? It has higher damage output.

the problem is that damage from Soldier is terrible, can be negated by toughness, cant fire and forget and Power is hugely dependent on 2 other stats (precision/ferocity), unlike Dire.

Power damage is even more “fire and forget” than condition damage. Why? Because one you hit, you’re completely done with that attack! You fire, then can completely forget, because it’s already done. Condition damage builds have to contend with their attack being largely negated after they hit with it.

And you are comparing a stat with a gear set… Power is no more reliant on Precision and Ferocity than Condition Damage is with Condition Duration and Precision. Both stats work rather well in a vacuum, but get much better with addition of the other two related stats.

Direct damage is mitagated by Armor/toughness, protection, weakness, and block. You also have to connect those hits, condition damage allows for someone to stack bleeds, burning poison or any other damaging condition, and do other actions like kite, or heal or w.e they plan to do. The only form of damage mitigation against conditions would be -condition duration, but the stat is very scarce, except with food and whatever rune sets you have.

Block doesn’t work against condition attacks? Condition builds don’t have to connect their attacks? Since when?

Conditions also can’t crit, gain no benefit from vulnerability, and are not affected by modifiers such as Sigil of Force or traits. There are 0 methods to multiply condition damage, either in a positive or negative direction.

And guess what? Power builds can land their attacks and then kite/heal, or w/e they plan to do as well. Because their skill has already had its full effect. There is no difference at all in that respect. In both cases, the build has unloaded its offense and is buying time. Only difference is that Power builds are waiting on cooldowns and condition builds are waiting on cooldowns and for their damage to actually take effect.

There is one sigil that gives condition damage a 6% boost in damage and that’s the Superior Sigil of Bursting. if you are talking about spvp then you are correct. Power builds that land the hits and are mitigated by toughness, protection, and weakness, and evades/dodges. Whatever previous conditions that have already hit your target continues to tick through blocks, and invulnerability, and other active defenses.

The application is spammable just because they are loaded, onto auto attacks and on crit effects with low CD, and the scattered all throughout weapon skills and utilites. Blocks and dodges cancel out application true, but the application is so abundant that it’s practically not as effective in dodging direct damage skill. Dodge a application? No problem here’s another…and another. There’s also things like poison reducing healing output by 33% , confusion procing off any skill action you do. Sorry but power build’s key damage comes from burst meaning most of the damage comes from a really big hit/skill. Condition damage comes in a constant stream of steady damage until it becomes overwealming until removed, and you don’t have enough consistent small condition removals to keep up unless you build especially to remove a bunch(A guardian with soldier runes, pure of voice, purity, sigils of purity on both load outs).. Then you lose too much power damage and you hit like a wet noodle which often ends in a stalemate.

Power builds that run zerkers play glass, so direct damage and even more so condition damage will rip through them like wet toilet paper, because they sacrificed the defenses they have, to deal more damage. Condition damage only needs one stat, with duration being optional or taken care of with a rune set. The rest can be slotted in for defensive stat making a tanky condition build. Comparing the two builds Condition builds sacrifice significantly less because there’s barely any passive resilience stat that’s like toughness→power.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Juba.8406:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Killface.1896:

Remove dire stat and give all that have that gear a change to pick new gear for game balance,problem solved you cant be super tanky and dps like a boss

By the same logic, shouldn’t Soldier’s gear be removed? It has higher damage output.

the problem is that damage from Soldier is terrible, can be negated by toughness, cant fire and forget and Power is hugely dependent on 2 other stats (precision/ferocity), unlike Dire.

Power damage is even more “fire and forget” than condition damage. Why? Because one you hit, you’re completely done with that attack! You fire, then can completely forget, because it’s already done. Condition damage builds have to contend with their attack being largely negated after they hit with it.

And you are comparing a stat with a gear set… Power is no more reliant on Precision and Ferocity than Condition Damage is with Condition Duration and Precision. Both stats work rather well in a vacuum, but get much better with addition of the other two related stats.

Direct damage is mitagated by Armor/toughness, protection, weakness, and block. You also have to connect those hits, condition damage allows for someone to stack bleeds, burning poison or any other damaging condition, and do other actions like kite, or heal or w.e they plan to do. The only form of damage mitigation against conditions would be -condition duration, but the stat is very scarce, except with food and whatever rune sets you have.

HardRider.2980:

Guardian/Ele boons – OP
Warrior’s damage – OP
Engi conditions – OP
Mesmer clones – OP

Everything is op somewhere.

Fixed that for you.

Leave torch alone, it’s fine. it’s a great weapon for solo roaming in WvW and Spvp to a certain extent, it has a nuke and basically a high uptime on Fiery Wrath’s 10% damage trait. Shield could use some love though, since it’s just mainly a spvp bunker offhand.

In-depth math with condition vs direct damage, is pointless because the way the combat system works, there are just to many variables, look at PVE, math is used there and Zerker is prevalent, because it’s vs AI which stands still and soaks all the damage, which is why condition specs are less desirable in PVE, zerkers can land every single hit , while condition specs have to wait for ticks. VS real players it’s a entirely different game, you’ve got dodges, obstructions, fleeing, kiting, blocks, CC, soft CC, weakness, cleansing, etc. So bringing in, in-depth math is pointless vs actual in-game play.

Tbh, Conditions are pretty imba. if you don’t have consistent cleansing then eventually you’re going to lose if they’re decent. Conditions are a absolute bane against melee based professions/builds, the, words often spoken in defense of condition specs are “Bring condition removal/cleanse” even though people probably do, it doesn’t really help because of how easy it is to reapply in the bulks. If you want to take example of ridiculous condition reapplication, take Grenade condi engi, and for tpvp, Grenade and bomb kit. Bomb kit because you’re forced to fight on a small point, and grenades because you’ll just get bombed on constantly, or even pistol/pistol builds.

I realize, with how dominant condition builds are in a PvP setting , Warrior’s Zerker Stance is balanced against this sort of thing. The thing about condition damage is that it’s sticky damage, meaning you fire and forget, and keep consistently stacking the damage until it’s removed or it expires. if it isn’t removed it ticks for it’s full damage and it can’t be mitigated since it bypasses armor. The only resistance against conditions as a stat would be -condition duration, but that’s a scarce stat that’s only available through runes, and very few traits. If application was toned down a bit then i don’t think it would be complained about as much. The only condition class I will say is okay now is necro. With burning removed from the passive critical hits and moved to DS 1(if they really want burning), Terrormancer is still strong though it isn’t like before when I’m getting hit consistently for over 1k-2k damage a second (Fear=1k damage per sec, and burning=800ish damage, with whatever stacks of bleeding, poison.

FYI- Sunless Rune was nerfed a bit on the duration, used to be 20% -condi duration.

You know it’s getting kind of annoying now when i visit this subform someone says that thieves need a complete/serious remake because they’re OP or toxic, but it’s sad that I’m actually a lot more scared of a staff ele in Spvp using meteor storm, or engineers in both Spvp and WvW(who has absurd sustain and condition damage) just AoE bombing areas without that much effort. Compared to other classes Thieves look and feel underpowered compared to the rest of the other classes, even more so with crit damage nerf. What makes them so overpowered to people?

One thing I’m going to say here is that if it’s one condition class it’s manageable when you build for decent condition cleanse, if it’s more then one then you’re screwed no matter what unless they’re really bad. Vitality is not a true counter/mitigation to conditions as many people suggest, and if you compare it to toughness here’s the thing it only effects direct damage, and vitality also effects direct damage too, ssince you have to hit them more to take off however many more hit pointss they have. Another thing with toughnesss too is if you stack it with protection, or applying weakness you severely reduce the damage, and you have things like block and dodge that affects direct damage a lot more then condition damage which sticks when you apply it..

I’ve realized it when i was roaming around in WvW, even with 22k HP, passive active condition removal(Purity sigil), smite condition, and full cleanse (CoP) I got burned down so quickly even with with help from guards in a camp. When you have a ranger who can effectively stack bleeds easily and fast with shortbow and sharpening stone, and a engineer who can practically overload you with every condition in the book aside from torment(in wvw). It doesn’t matter how much Vitality you have you’re going to die. I know for sure i could live longer against two zerker warriors or Zerker guardians and even phantasm mesmers (Because I know i could dodge the key damaging attacks) Though against conditons there’s no way to skillfully combat it, condition removals only go so far, and when you’ve expended them all(timing when to remove a large stack of bleeds or burning) you’re out of options to mitigate condition damage. As for Spvp, It’s easy and just as fast to apply bars full of conditions then it is to remove them.

Condition damage now, it might be a bit meh in zergs but in small skirmishes and such, it dominates. Condition damage ignores armor, and the only means to really soften it comes from Runes, or traits, or just straight up removing them. – Condition Duration is scarce unless you specifically run Melandru runes but even then it’s really the only -condition duration that helps soften the total damage received. Unless you wvw then you you have Lemongrasss which is countered by Koi Cakes/Rare Veggie pizza. With the sigil change, durations got buffed significantly, as well as application(sigil change makes it easier to have more damaging conditions), so this further buffs the strength of these types of builds.

I think condition damage might be more bearable if there was a stat like toughness for it that you had to put stat points in. However many points of the stat you have in it works likes toughness and gives you a percentage of -condition duration. A stat combo that might use this can be a 4 stat combo with the stat for -condition duration. . It would be whatever primary stat, the minor stats having less then the usual amount than a 3 stat combo. I don’t want to say a three stat because if you look at Giver’s armor yeah….but it’s stll up there for thought.

If this were to happen I would think some fixes to traits that give -condition duration like Leg Mods, Dogged March, etc would need to be brought down slightly (33%->25%) so you aren’t practically immune to large amounts of soft CC 100% of the time.

Another Idea I think would be good is if there were runes that gave a significantly stronger -condition duration that effects only 1 or 2 specific conditions(Look at how the runes for offensive conditions are). This would help balance things out for power players and hybrid specs so condition isn’t completely dominant.

Perdix.8641:

Guardians are rly OP.

They are apex 1v1 when played well, with great mobility and much more team fight synergy than a warrior. If this game gets competitive again you’ll see players run them.

They’re great 1v1, but they are not apex, they lose ground/control when they get condi overloaded or stunlocked/CC’d, or swarmed. They have alright combat mobility and even decent mobility with GS/S+X. If this was a troll post though you got me. If not well bolded is wrong. :P

a t s e.9614:

‘’ Tanky" you mean bunker? If he is bunker you can’t kill him but he won’t kill you either. Usually when a guard is too tanky I just tell him drop the clerics bro.

Yet a warrior can slap on HS, to become tanky like a guard, without the investment, and still deal out the good DEEPS. :P So you telling him to drop the clerics is like someone telling you to drop the HS.

jportell.2197:

Two words Dark Pact. Between that and the amazing Auto attack… Main hand dagger is fine.

^This the normal setup if you want to gain health, and it’s low-mid range so you’ll keep some of your health if you want to remain at a distance.

I used them on my warrior for WvW, they were nice for setting up Pin Down, or impale, mixed with Fear Me!, though they are pretty bad for almost every other professions..

Carighan.6758:

Amins.3710:

Behold the mentality of the skill-less zerger!

And smallscale is skill-based. Uh huh. Well, as long as you feel good up there on that horse, sure. :P

Small-scale fights and solo roaming requires more skill, because you’ll have a view and idea of what your opponents will be doing, compared to the screen of clutter red names and skill effects, along with randomly spamming 1 or AoE skills for bags,. Unless you’re the one commanding the zerg there’s little to no skill that exists while zerging.

So now we go to small scale skirmishes and roaming, what you need to know would be timed dodges/active defenses, knowing your class, your environment, skill animations, knowledge of other classes(it gets rough when you don’t), and reasonable/good DPS.

Muchacho.2390:

Lucentfir.7430:

Muchacho.2390:

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

I think dodge doesn’t even work.

Gonna have to try to test this at some point, could have sworn I was flipping over them, but maybe I had stability from someone in group and didn’t notice =/

No, it is impossible to dodge roll though guardian walls/necro fearwall without stability.

For the fearwall it’s true, though it’s entirely possible to dodge roll through Wards, i’ve done it numerous times in duels with Guards using Hammer, or guards that try to block me off in WvW(tight spaces), normally it knocks you back slightly if you’re close still afterwards it’s enough you can dodge through it. Or if you want to guarantee to dodge through it just as you collide with the while stunbreak when it knocks you back slightly. You’ll go through the warding.

I am pretty sure you cannot dodge though guardian walls unless they changed it in the last months.
So if you by any chance are able to dodge though them you ether have stability or it is a bug.

I’m pretty sure you can still dodge through Warding’s Wall, I know stunbreaking as you get knocked down by a ward is the easiest way of moving/dodging through LoW, and RoW.

Muchacho.2390:

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Hammer5/staff5 is easily run over with stability or dodged over

I think dodge doesn’t even work.

Gonna have to try to test this at some point, could have sworn I was flipping over them, but maybe I had stability from someone in group and didn’t notice =/

No, it is impossible to dodge roll though guardian walls/necro fearwall without stability.

For the fearwall it’s true, though it’s entirely possible to dodge roll through Wards, i’ve done it numerous times in duels with Guards using Hammer, or guards that try to block me off in WvW(tight spaces), normally it knocks you back slightly if you’re close still afterwards it’s enough you can dodge through it. Or if you want to guarantee to dodge through it just as you collide with the while stunbreak when it knocks you back slightly. You’ll go through the warding.

Uhtameit.2413:

@Lucentfir

Guardian never was the beast roamer out there because it is far from having the best mobility. If it doesn’t have a target, it has a very poor mobility actually. And perhaps I did assume wrong, but you didn’t mention Lyssa and the possibility to be able to use it is very nice for guards.

To be honest it’s easy to overload anyone with conditions if they take your grenades/bombs except : war and necro.

About the heals, I know. Already commented on that, I’m not going that way twice.

Fighting a hambow is most dangerous for the opponent of course, though guardian probably stands okay-chances (since my engi depends on doing condi damage and cc, good luck with Berserker Stance/ Balanced Stance/ Rune of Lyssa).

As for guardian vs engi, a duel where the engi uses his crate is pretty hard to win (except if you play hambow). Tbh bombs in a duel are just so unreliable I don’t really get how they can prove much of an issue (unlike grenades), they’re more of a way to make sure you don’t come close.If they have rocket boots/tool kit/ grenades or bombs, they don’t have a stun breaker (that’s what I run actually) which puts them at risk against a few other classes so you know…paper, scissors, etc…

@Aza

Nah nah nah I never meant that scepter has 1200 range, nothing will land at that range. Even the wiki says that “The maximum damage range for scepters is 940 – 1,060” (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scepter ). I meant that it’s a short range option, you can use it at say 400-600. Scepter is actually pretty good in sPvP AFAIK.

I know quite a few decent guardians who use torch with scepter in PvP so it’s not that weak. For instance it’s quite good coupled with sword/focus and the GM trait that gives +15% crit one one-hand weapons.

Again, no no no no, I suggested to get the trait to chill because the OP asked for soft cc options. This is one of the few guardian already possesses. Don’t bend my words into some other meaning : the trait is not amazing, but it is a soft cc. And it is pretty much reliable if you use it with the GM i just mentionned that could get you around 65% crit.

The only way to make Guardian bearable in roaming is to put on Traveler’s Runes, then it becomes decent. The only other skill we use for mobility is Leap of Faith(does not require a target). Outside those two weapons though Guardian’s have really bad mobility. Also I never brought up Lyssa, you did when we were discussing the Ele vs Guardian condition removal thing. I never said Lyssa wasn’t bad, but what i said was basically you’d have to wait a full channel of renewed Focus, to get the benefit of it when you need it. (2-3s) Normally you use Renewed Focus when you’re about to get bursted or anticipate something is about to hit you hard. Spvp wise the runes are good no doubt, however outside of Spvp, Runes of Lyssa is Meh for a roaming guardian, since it conflicts with Traveler’s Runes, decent speed up you need to roam well.

Agreed, on it’s easy to overload anyone with condition’s period.

On the guardian i have to be up front and personnel with the warrior, and he has Weakness he could hit me with to null alot of my burst(Fierce Blow) ,and AoE with LB, with a immoblize. If you get stunlocked you’re going to be at a disadvantage if you’re out of stunbreakers(Likely to lose control of the fight.), hence why burst, with blinds and well time blocks lead to beating warriors, you have to play well other wise you’ll lose.

Hambow, at least with the build I ran, on engi for condi, dual pistol, Toolkit, Bombkit, and Shirk Elixer, I tore apart warriors, Kite around The Warrior and wait till Zerker stance expires, throw your first load of conditions on him by using bomb kit, spam, and overload his bar, make him proc SoR, kite him again, load him up again with pistol skills. with my build I used I think 20/30/0/20/0 with Rabid’s amulet. Sitting Duck Trait for the easy cover condition on Glue Shot, burning completely nulls and even damages Warrior with HS, add posion, confusion and and stacks of bleed you’ll easily burn them down. I use bombs for anti melee, if someone is chasing me I lay down a bunch of bombs, and if they take a second to back off I’ll go back to pistol and spam them with conditions. I see a lot of engineers use grenades, in Spvp but I think that’s because it’s ranged, spammable, also it has really long poison duration.

I will agree Lyssa is a great rune I’m not going to argue about that, and most of what I’m talking about is in wvw(I duel and roam). Spvp wise Lyssa is normally a ideal choice, for a DPS spec needing more clearing(though 90s CD, and having to wait 2-3s to recieve benefit is what kinda kills it for me). Outside of it though other Rune sets like Travelers(the better version of Speed runes) will compete with it. Especially in roaming based builds(then again meditation guardian is a roaming spec), since roaming specs need to not move like a turtle.. You assume wrong.

Alright i get what you’re saying, they have decent condition removal, but it’s too easy to overload them with conditions , after the first initial clear, and you have to time your condition removals well, for things like a 8 stacks of bleeding, poison for 15s confusion, poison and such.

Signet of Resolve gives you a 1 clear every 10s when you don’t have it on CD. By taking Sigent of Resolve you lose Shelter which is 2 seconds of breathing space, which Meditations do indeed use over SoR. It synergizes with Might of the Defender(A stack of might every time you block) and it’s a anti burst. SoR allows no breathing room and it’s hard to interrupt(Except by things like Binding blade when they already have the chains on them, Warding, unblockable interrupts.)

Again I speak from WvW aspect. I’ve only used scepter in duels where I can’t get close enough to the person, and they’re running around to much for me to make melee effective(Duels only, not roaming) I can see the use in Spvp if you’re trying to defend the node or you need to keep at a distance against someone camping on the node, or it’s to dangerous for melee with the point bombing.

I’ve played Warrior, and I’ve played guardian a lot. I’ve beaten Hambows before, and it’s all about knowing . Though most of the time it’s a lot more dangerous for the guardian. Properly timed blocks and blinds will help you greatly against hambows, however if you get stunlocked, you’re going to be punished heavily for it and the odds are going to tip into the warrior’s favor.

Easier said then done, getting pelted with pistol skills, and if you do the supposed combo, anyone who’s played guardian can see it coming, and dodge it, and if you manage to hook them, they’ll stunbreak out after the pull and gain some distance before pelting you again. Go in for melee combat, kit switch to bombs or grenades and spam you again. Chances are they have rocket boots to gain even more distance if you ever try to close in on them, and of course the lovely supply crate. Good luck with that.

I’m just saying how things are currently. Dhuumfire Terrormancer has instagib power, which easily kills meditation guardians(not them but a lot of other classes as well.)

And I’m going to say you think wrong, I dip in WvW and Spvp, Rank 42 FYI

@Uhatmeit
20 in lighting is good enough for me to do damage damage added zerker armor and a mix of trinkets you’ll do pretty good damage. Burning Speed hits hard, Ring of Fire hits for Decent damage too, Ring of Earth does good damage as well, and Air/ Lighting Whip spam adds up quick. And I don’t need to use ER since I have good Condition clearing already(Unless i really need to when i’m dueling a condition spammer, and he/she already trumps my condition removal)

It’s obvious to me you haven’t played a guardian that much if not at all,,with Runes of Lyssa, lowest CD we have is 90s, and ofc the clearing when you need it with Renewed focus or even the tomes, you have to wait until the end of the channel to even receive benefit of the removal and boon gain. Signet of Resolve isn’t reliable for condition removal, and untraited is a 40s Heal, You’ll lose a anti burst from shelter, and if you take the purity trait you lose Focused mind or Meditation CD reduction(Good Trade off).

You keep bringing up scepter/X, the weapon is kinda bad unless you really need to stay out of range and try to hit things, in which someone could just walk back and forth and not get hit. and again trade off is one of our weapons (GS, or S), the immoblize is minor, all the damage you’re supposed to be doing comes from the Scepter’s AA’s(Only works well when you’re in 600 range) and people actually sitting in smite long enough to get hit by the full duration.

The blocks the blinds and all are to make up for the low base HP we have like ele, and general lack of mobility outside of GS and Sword/X(Eles have great access to swiftness and mobility skills). Eles had Great mobility, they still have decent mobility.

@ this comment
Because guardian is already strong and the lack of soft cc is the only thing keeping it from becoming a new warrior. If you want to stick to your fleeing opponents so bad, just get Rune of Speed.

Ahhahahah! Thanks for the laugh, and I do agree that guards are pretty solid/balanced, but people complain about warriors because a whole board of reasons, where can I start? best health pool, best armor , condition immunity(Zerker stance), fastest land speed with GS, stunlocking(Hammer, Mace, etc), and big DEEPS, Healing Signet(because 500 HPS with Adrenal heal, and even more with regen), movement impairment invulnerability(Dogged March, Melandru runes/-condition runes, Lemongrass food) one of the best condition removal traits(Cleansing Ire), builds that one shots squishy players, doesn’t sacrifice much to do the above. Because guardian obviously has almost all that, giving them soft CC would push them into becoming a new Warrior. By the way I run traveler’s it does help, however I still can’t keep up sit someone who spams movement impairment effects on me, and whenever I see a engineer i run away because I’ll just be frustrating myself trying to chase him/her down while they drop bombs or grenade spam, which often leaves me with a bar full of conditions and near if not more then a minute of poison. Same thing with necros, only if i chase them, i have to be sure to take them down Asap otherwise Dhummfire terror, and I’m dead in a few seconds even with removal.

hooma.9642:

so this thread is about: “i ignored the class-philosophy and picked a guard but wanted a warrior in secret”?

I don’t get how asking for some Soft CC(at least from me and a few others) to stick to moving foes is wanting a Warrior in secret. Also most of our builds we sacrifice for things(as it should be) we want to do with our guard. Warriors have high base HP pools, and Armor, greatest mobility speeches are obviously aimed at GS users, or the troll GS/S+W build using Bull’s Charge, outside of those builds though Warriors have decent mobility. They don’t have to sacrifice as much to get other things compared to the other classes.

Uhtameit.2413:

-snip-

I’ve experimented with my elementalist enough to know I’ve got decent-good damage with my build with good survivablity at least for me. It’s short sighted and closed minded when you think, having to go full 30 in all the DPS lines to consider yourself DPS spec, when it’s not really true, you’re just trading some trait offense for trait defense, ofc you’re not going to include gear in the builds, who does that, or runes?

The two you put into comparison to guardian, both have CC soft and hard that helps land burst and sustained damage. Eles have tons of it (Frost armor(Chill), Frozen Burst(Chill), Ring of Earth(Cripple), Magnetic Grab(immoblize). Then we move onto hard CC, Earthquake(Knockdown), Updraft(launch), Shocking aura(Stun, you have to be hit). Engies, are ranged, they use ranged weapons, and they have Overcharged shot(Launch 15-12s CD) , Net on Rifle(Immoblize 10-8s CD), Toolkit’s Magnet (Pull), Box of nails(Cripple), easy to land burst. Now Guardian using GS/S+X has, Binding blade(pull)……..that’s it. So this means people can escape their burst easily, because there’s nothing to hold them down to take the damage. I’ll leave out S/D ele since I never played S/D.

Eles have better condition removal then guardians without greater sacrifice.

Cleansing Water(1 Condition every time you gain Regen)
Cleansing fire(traited with Soothing disruption and cleansing water=4 Conditions, 32 sec CD)
Cleansing wave(1 condition)
Elemental Attunement(Water Swap=Regen=1 Condition)
So slotting 3 Cantrips will give you 3-6 Condition clears(Cleansing Water procs), including Cleansing wave=7 condition clears, then the proc from elemental attunement to water=8 Condition clears in total.

Then we look at Guardian with Meditations, and what do they have!

Smite Condition, 1 condition every 20-16 sec
Contemplation of Purity a one time conversion on a 60-48s CD.

The only way to surpass ele’s clearing is to run triple shouts with Pure of voice(3 conditions normally, and 6 if you run soldier runes.)
Absolute resolution=3 Conditions cleared total(another 3 if you popped renewed focus and activated it again) and the cooldown is what 52-50 seconds for VoR at least with 20 in Virtues?
Purging Flame =3 Conditions with -condition duration

that’s about 12 Condition removals (3 from Soldier runes, 3 from PoV, 3 from traited VoR, and 3 again from VoR after Renewed focus, which in this case is a dedicated support build, which can’t do anything for itself.

Also i love how you put the risk vs reward thing in there, Guardians are really Medium to High Risk to High Reward(Essentially a melee only class and poor range option), Glass Engi running SD, is medium to High Risk, High Reward as well, land your burst either you win the fight or gain superior advantage. Ele is right on spot , medium to high risk, Decent Reward. Though you should really play guardian more, because you’re really on about how Guardian has insane Survivablity ;p for how glassy they are, when it’s probably skillful timing, of active defenses(with lengthy CDs). It’s harder to play against good opponents, or builds that have your weakness(Heavy CC and Condition based specs, Kite around with soft CC)

Uhtameit.2413:

Lucentfir.7430:

Uhtameit.2413:

Lucentfir.7430:

@Uhtameit as for the soft CC stuff, soft CC as movement impairment, cripple, chill.,immoblize, things that stability doesn’t effect.

I got that by now, you should probably try to read the thread. I just didn’t know when I first encountered it which is pretty much what happens to everyone, eh

Lucentfir.7430:

@this post you posted - Glass guardian has a ridiculously high survivability, denying it is foolish. Also, you shouldn’t insult other people, it’s very mean and you might get reported for it.

Right….ofc you bring this up when there’s condi bunkers that exist such as Engi, Warriors, Mesmer, Necro. They don’t have ridiculously high survivablity, with crap tons of damage, meditation guardians(mostly glassy) has okay-good survivablity with burst heals, since most people run triple meditation. Most glass cannon guard builds don’t have very good access to protection, unless you invest for it, meaning trading some offense for some defense, and from experience most condi bunkers have a higher chance of winning a fight against a glass guard. It’s fun especially when trying to kill a engi in WvW(roaming/dueling) or Spvp, runs around and just spams bombs and grenades, AoE’s the kitten out of you with conditions(lovely 30+ seconds of poison), and over fills your bar with them. So please how do we have ridiculous survivablity?

I enjoy the repetition. For starters, we are talking about a power spec. POWER. SPEC. Why do you mention condition builds? condition builds have access to amulets with toughness without losing damage so yes of course they are tankier.

What I was saying was that glass guardian, while being glass, has insane survivability. Try playing glass ele or glass engi and you’ll feel the difference (no shelter, no shield of wrath, no elite that renders you immune and let’s not mention all the blinds).

And please, do not mention warriors. Of course they are op. So now given that you compare base stats of condition builds vs glass builds, I suggest you play the game some and follow a few logic courses. Hope it helps.

I’ve played Zerker ele, not that great ofc but it’s a class that has the lowest health and armor so ofc it’s going to be difficult. I’ve played Static Discharge engi before, really troll and easy to murder people with. Also i find it funny you’re comparing ranged classes to a melee class, and I can say I’ve played the game probably longer then you have, so please try again :]

d/d ele is not ranged, and engi glass will do no damage unless it lands skills like Overcharged Shot, Blunderbuss, JumpShot. I suggest you read the range on those skills. As for s/d ele, it will do no damage unless it lands a combo involving for instance earthquake, ring of fire, fire grab. Yep. Please try again.

If you want to talk about D/D Ele, they’re getting buffed with evasion and blast finishers. And I play a damage based ele. 30 in water for condition removal(cantrips) and at least 20 in arcana for Elemental attunement for the easy access boons, and either 25% movespeed or vigor. S/D I don’t play S/D so i can’t say much about it, though I know the other variation is S/F and it works from what I seen in Spvp. My ele has better condition removal then my meditation guard, and the combat is fluid once you know your combos, it’s easier to land your burst. Also don’t kid yourself about the engineer rifle skills, making it sound like landing those skills are hard. Rifle has a immoblize and a knockback which makes it very easy to land your burst. hit all your toolbelt skills and drop whoever you’re facing(I’ve ran Tool kit, Rifle Turret, and Utility goggles for utilities) with Static discharge, and it has even better damage when there is something for the discharge to bounce off of. Also those 5k Pry bars in Spvp mmmm delicious. Try again please, perhaps play with your guardian more, and come back here when you’ve enriched yourself of the feel of actual gameplay as a guardian.

Uhtameit.2413:

Lucentfir.7430:

@Uhtameit as for the soft CC stuff, soft CC as movement impairment, cripple, chill.,immoblize, things that stability doesn’t effect.

I got that by now, you should probably try to read the thread. I just didn’t know when I first encountered it which is pretty much what happens to everyone, eh

Lucentfir.7430:

@this post you posted - Glass guardian has a ridiculously high survivability, denying it is foolish. Also, you shouldn’t insult other people, it’s very mean and you might get reported for it.

Right….ofc you bring this up when there’s condi bunkers that exist such as Engi, Warriors, Mesmer, Necro. They don’t have ridiculously high survivablity, with crap tons of damage, meditation guardians(mostly glassy) has okay-good survivablity with burst heals, since most people run triple meditation. Most glass cannon guard builds don’t have very good access to protection, unless you invest for it, meaning trading some offense for some defense, and from experience most condi bunkers have a higher chance of winning a fight against a glass guard. It’s fun especially when trying to kill a engi in WvW(roaming/dueling) or Spvp, runs around and just spams bombs and grenades, AoE’s the kitten out of you with conditions(lovely 30+ seconds of poison), and over fills your bar with them. So please how do we have ridiculous survivablity?

I enjoy the repetition. For starters, we are talking about a power spec. POWER. SPEC. Why do you mention condition builds? condition builds have access to amulets with toughness without losing damage so yes of course they are tankier.

What I was saying was that glass guardian, while being glass, has insane survivability. Try playing glass ele or glass engi and you’ll feel the difference (no shelter, no shield of wrath, no elite that renders you immune and let’s not mention all the blinds).

And please, do not mention warriors. Of course they are op. So now given that you compare base stats of condition builds vs glass builds, I suggest you play the game some and follow a few logic courses. Hope it helps.

I’ve played Zerker ele, not that great ofc but it’s a class that has the lowest health and armor so ofc it’s going to be difficult. I’ve played Static Discharge engi before, really troll and easy to murder people with. Also i find it funny you’re comparing ranged classes to a melee class, and I can say I’ve played the game probably longer then you have, so please try again :]

Torch isn’t a bad weapon, it’s pretty good if you run a burst spec, the thing is outside of PvE, Focus is overrated, unless you’re looking for just additional defense. If you’re looking for additional damage torch is great. With focus your burst is reliant on your bubble which breaks if struck 3 times(easy). Torch offers sticky damage through burning, and the 4 active is a good nuke skill, and 5 is okay to a extent your foe is just out of reach.

@Uhtameit as for the soft CC stuff, soft CC as movement impairment, cripple, chill.,immoblize, things that stability doesn’t effect.

@this post you posted – Glass guardian has a ridiculously high survivability, denying it is foolish. Also, you shouldn’t insult other people, it’s very mean and you might get reported for it.

Right….ofc you bring this up when there’s condi bunkers that exist such as Engi, Warriors, Mesmer, Necro. They don’t have ridiculously high survivablity, with crap tons of damage, meditation guardians(mostly glassy) has okay-good survivablity with burst heals, since most people run triple meditation. Most glass cannon guard builds don’t have very good access to protection, unless you invest for it, meaning trading some offense for some defense, and from experience most condi bunkers have a higher chance of winning a fight against a glass guard. It’s fun especially when trying to kill a engi in WvW(roaming/dueling) or Spvp, runs around and just spams bombs and grenades, AoE’s the kitten out of you with conditions(lovely 30+ seconds of poison), and over fills your bar with them. So please how do we have ridiculous survivablity?

^Amins is correct, you’re either bunker, support, or glass cannon DPS. Outside of GS and Sword, you have kitten mobility. good defense abilities come with the price of having to invest for it. Same with DPS specs for DPS, you can’t make a absurdly tanky guardian with Zerker damage.

You’ll have poor self condition removal if you don’t run shouts with PoV, or meditations. On top of that you’ll lose out on a increase of Health pool and healing power by not investing more into Honor. Also a majority of meditation builds have any protection access, so low health and squishy. Soft CC wouldn’t make us OP it’ll just allow other guardian builds to actually help stick to targets. it’s bs that some can just run away from you or in circles when they want too.

Andele.1306:

Burnfall.9573:

infantrydiv.1620:

Maybe if you wanted a more mobile class you shouldn’t have picked the heavy armor white mage archetype ^.^ not known for being particularly nimble

To begin with, how is it possible in mmo history where a Heavy Set warrior class run fast/er than a cheetah?

also…

How is it possible for a Heavy Set warrior to be the Undisputed King of Speed than the Light Set 125 pound cheetah?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8vejjVgIHg

" This is Why You Can’t Outrun a Cheetah "

Of course

see> Warriors

There are these things called “trains” and “airships” and “charr siege tanks”, all of them run faster than a silly kitty cat for a much longer amount of time, why else do you think that getting away from a warrior feels like surviving a trainwreck? badum tshhh

P.S. To whiny people, if you feel lacking movement speed, play mesmer for a while, if you feel like lacking mobility, play necro for a while; also on that note movement speed =/= mobility.

i’ve played necro for a while and mesmer for a while is Spvp. Necro packs chill cripples, fears, immobilize, and not to mention a platter of conditions. They have some serious control and has the ability to nearly instagib any one(depending on the build terromancers especially.) So I don’t see a reason to even run unless you’re facing greatter odds.

Mesmers have access to stealth, cripple, dazes/stuns, Blink, and crap, and clone on dodge(deceptive evasion). From what i could tell from playing the class is, spam your phantasms and just survive while they do the dirty work for you, but this isn’t about necro or mesmer, it’s about your post. Both these classes have great ranged weapons and control effects. you should play guardian for a while and see how annoying it is to try and keep up with kitters. X amount of teleports and leaps won’t matter unless you have soft CC or swiftness applied, other wise a second later they’re out of range again.

As far as Dueling mesmers is concerned, and being a guard main. Pure Shout build is not that good to fight a mesmer with. I know My meditation guard can kill mesmers( but you have to play ape **** aggressive if you want to do anything the the mesmer meaningful)

With Mesmer AI Phantasm spam, going invisible, blinking, stun/daze, distortion, Aegis/Protection(PU procs). it gets ridiculous even more so on a Condition build, but that just ends up in a stalemate if you just refuse to fight.

@Redg – oh please support builds and bunkering builds can’t do anything for themselves accept hold a point in Spvp, or just being a boon machine. Any other guardian building for survival is nothing but a slow moving rock, that’s pretty much a free kill. As a dev said Guardian’s are in a good spot so, your thoughts on nerfing them are invalid(besides they’re alread getting nerfed with the vigor change )

@Jportell pre-nerfed confusion was really OP, in terms of roaming in wvw, current confusion is much better(people still complain about it since perplexity and warrior trait :P)

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Renny.6571:

No one “ignores” condition removal in suggestion/complaint threads. In fact, condition removal is one of the most tried counter-arguments people make in those threads which are then replied to and so on. You just have to read past the opening post and the first reply to find such discussions. Second, I’d love to see a build that had the capacity to cleanse 2~4 bleeds+poison+burning (on crit), such is the case with necro scepter auto attack chain, consistently, on top of dealing with other skills and utilities like Signet of Spite.

Necro burning is being made a lot more predictable in the next patch, so there’s not much point in still using it in these arguments. Scepter auto still deals bleeds + poison, but that’s where the damage of the weapon comes from (to give you a hint, even with a zerker amulet in PvP, about half the total damage still comes from the 0 condition damage bleeds).

And I still have yet to figure out why people make such a huge deal out of Signet of Spite. It is by far the most telegraphed skill in the condition necro’s build, has a 1 minute cooldown, and usually adds one, maybe two conditions to cleanse (bleeds and poison are already on you, Blind gets removed with an auto attack, and you usually are crippled from Flesh Golem or Grasping Dead). You know it’s coming, so just save a dodge/block for it.

Signet of Spite is manageable as long as you’re not running into a terror build. Though the bolded is kinda easier said then done. I know on my necro I often set it up with either a immoblize(Tainted Shackles/Dark pact), fear, or golems charge to easily get them with SoS. Also popping it as a fate sealer(people around 40% health). Weakness=Less endurance regen and 50% chance to hit glancing blows, Cripple, poison and the rest acts as covers. This basically makes it really hard to recover from.

Funny thing I’ll say is this. Anet is trying to bring PVE and PVP together, taking down walls between these two, so it would make sense to duel in PVE if this was their intention. Dueling would also help roamers in WvW, to sharpen skills in fighting solo. I’ve always wanted to duel some of my guildmates as well but the last time we did this in a custom arena was like last year. it’s a hassle, certain traits are nerfed pretty hard. limited stat spread, and, limited runes, limited choices, having to go through multiple loading screens, and fighting in the same maps over and over again makes it a bit dull(which is why dueling in PVE would make fights refreshing.)

1v1s are skill based because timing dodges, knowing when to cleanse conditions, when to step out of AoE or reading animations against a enemy that isn’t scripted AI, it requires skill, decision making on if it’s worth it to do action A or action B. It requires you to adapt and to decide the best course of action.

Though the solution i could see to this is having it be a guild feature, so you can make a duel specific guild and you’ll be able to only duel with those in the guild this way you can make duel events in PVE, without the PVERs being spammed with invites or duel me bro fears. What flaw can you see in a feature like this if you implant this way? This would surely build up a good community as well and might interest players to try pvp out.

Swim.6830:

Lucentfir.7430:

Being a guardian main(I own 2), and having played elementalist for a bit, also owning 3 warriors atm. The people saying it shouldn’t heal for more then VoR or SoR, don’t include the facts that Guardian and Ele other healing capabilities. Guardian’s VoR(regen) is tied into the class via virtues, they have a lot of access to regen and protection, Selfless Daring dodge heals, and okay access to vigor.. Elementalist have Water attunement regen, small frequent heals with Water off hand dagger 5 or/or Evasive Arcana. SoR passive can be spammed to match with HS(most of the AA’s on Ele’s main hand dagger skills have a 0.5 cast time), not to mention access to protection, and easier access to regeneration, then a warrior who specs 30 into tactics for banners.

So as the class with lowest health and armor I am supposed to constantly actively heal while the class with highest HP and armor actively pushes me into a corner while healing at the same (if not higher) rate PASSIVELY. Yeah makes sense…

Well if you run SoR then yes, i don’t have that many problems when i go dueling one with my ele, then again i don’t go full bunker, but I heal nicely and I avoid and mitigate damage(Perma vigor, Water Attunement regen and burst healing, Regen, earth swap protection, CC soft/hard) Eles can outdps the healing of HS easily, burning with drake’s breath considerably lowers it. to about 100ish HPS. They have no burst heals unless they run shouts which is another 30 in Tactics. From play experience I think elementalist, aren’t really as weak as people make them out to be.

@Harper-Protection is alright, it’s not really miles better then warrior tbh, it’s timed damaged mitigation, and it does help, soften blows, and helps make up for the smaller health pools. Hence why the idea for a HS warrior with access to protection is a bs proposal.

@Zenith- Warriors only sources of healing without dipping 30 into Tactics would be HS, and Adrenal Health. Which is about 500ish HPS, which is achievable with the Elementalist as well. The only warriors I’ve seen able to do 3-7k damage are hammer warriors with Merciless Hammer, and Axe warriors who land Eviscerate and have it crit. Normally running Cavaliers gear. Though Hammer itself though is redonculous for the damage it supplies with CC.

@Mithran- Sounds exaggerated tbh, 15 stacks of bleeding without a point in condition damage would be 637.5 DPS, and burning without Condition damage is about 328 DPS? Rounded up that’s 1k DPS. Banner warriors it sounds like you were maybe facing (HS, Adrenal Heal, Regen=800-1k HPS depending on how much Healing power). The rest of your post idk what you’re talking about tbh.

Edit: About invulnerability, stances are considered Soft invulnerability, Endure Pain is immune to direct damage for 4-5 seconds (Sure Footed traited), they can still be CC’d both hard and soft CC’d. Zerker Stance is Condition prevention which is 8-10 Second, they can still Hard CC you. if they have stability well they blew most of their utilities for the next 50s(CD is 60 for Endure pain and Zerker Stance, and depending on the stability (Yak sig 60s, Balanced Stance kitten , Trait balance stance 90s CD’s) Real invulnerability is like Renewed Focus where everything except already applied conditions don’teffect you, that’s true invulnerability.

Being a guardian main(I own 2), and having played elementalist for a bit, also owning 3 warriors atm. The people saying it shouldn’t heal for more then VoR or SoR, don’t include the facts that Guardian and Ele other healing capabilities. Guardian’s VoR(regen) is tied into the class via virtues, they have a lot of access to regen and protection, Selfless Daring dodge heals, and okay access to vigor.. Elementalist have Water attunement regen, small frequent heals with Water off hand dagger 5 or/or Evasive Arcana. SoR passive can be spammed to match with HS(most of the AA’s on Ele’s main hand dagger skills have a 0.5 cast time), not to mention access to protection, and easier access to regeneration, then a warrior who specs 30 into tactics for banners.

I think it’s decent, you don’t have to rely on swapping in order to get your guaranteed crit, it’s just there when you want to land burst. Kill Shot will always crit, Eviscerate will always crit, and taking something like Air Sigil or Fire Sigil can be better use for more damage.

Really good mesmer will kill you and are very hard to beat, however same level skill level mesmer are easier to handle. It also depends on what type of build the mesmer runs too.

Communal defense from what i think will be a good support Grandmaster since both grandmasters in valor are selfish. It’ll work great with Pure of Heart, and Shattered Aegis, and if you want retal, Wrathful Spirit.