The balance between the defensive stats is key against that sort of spike damage.
The ‘main’ combo was 26,748 damage, followed up with 5519 from a Heartseeker and a couple auto attacks, for a good time of 32,267 damage. That’s a LOT of vitality; you need some toughness along with the hit points to give yourself a chance. Well-timed dodge rolls are your best mitigation though!
I have also been rather underwhelmed with the relative power of many traits.
One of, if not the main draw to this game when I first purchased it, was the feeling that I could be whatever I wanted my character to be. I really thought the developers had worked very hard at ensuring there would be no such thing as a “pigeon-hole.” I would have plenty of viable options of traits to suit exactly what I wanted to do.
And while this is true in some degree, I feel there are many traits that could use a revisit, which would open up some more viable possibilities. There will always be min-maxing number crunchers who insist Build X is the build to play, and many people will. But I would like to see more of a focus on playing what I want, when I want, and still being relevant.
I dunno, like the mechanic overall. I don’t like how some of the downed states allow certain classes to be more aggressive with their play style than others, but it’s not the end of the world either.
I like the mechanic because of precisely what the video showed. 6 bad-to-mediocre players, mostly up-leveled, stand a chance against one guy in a troll spec trolling with his legendary. I’m sure a number of you won’t see it that way, and that’s fine, but I think the game is better for it. If Mr. Troll brought a friend or two with him, I’m sure the outcome would have been different, and rightfully so.
As an afterthought, I suppose if they completely overhauled how long it takes to kill people (meaning greatly increase it) and significantly improved the stats and survivability of sub-80’s, then sure, rez can go.
GW2 is the only MMO where you can go up against 6 players, kill 5 and still end up fighting against 6. No mechanic in this game allows a player, no matter how skilled, to overcome the ease of rezzing a dead player.
GW2 might be the only MMO where you can kill 6 players, period. I won’t claim to be an expert on it, but I feel that more often than not, players in other games that try to fight 1 on 6 don’t fare so well.
As I’ve said before, I wish they’d just completely scrap the ability, and give us a different mobility ability that fits the Mesmer theme instead. Maybe a mimic of RTL that sends you in one direction and a clone in the opposite.
Does the game really benefit from people using Portal as a crutch to move either large groups in WvW or for the Mesmer to cover multiple points in SPvP? I think the class needs an ability which can be used tactfully to gain a maneuverability advantage on the opponent, but I don’t see that the game benefits from relying on Portal at all.
I’ll never understand why people will literally spend 5 minutes running around to skip a pack of mobs that takes 30 seconds to kill. I’d wager I’ve spent 4 times as long in my MMO career recovering from a skip-gone-wrong than I have just killing the mobs.
Plus, I play to play, not to skip as much as I can to chase the carrot.
Level the classes that most appeal to you to at least 10. Make sure you attempt to learn all of the weapon skills with each. Continue leveling the one you like the most.
I’m assuming you’re chasing what are considered to be the top pvp classes, or at least the most complained about. I’ll just warn you to be careful chasing perceived strength; generally you’ll fare better playing what suits you best instead of forcing yourself into roles just because others say they’re relatively strong. Plus, in the time it takes you to level + gear them, class balancing can happen, and that relative strength can disappear quickly.
I apologize if my assumption was entirely off base, and your interest in these classes are independant of their relative power.
I would think a recruiting thread, would identify who was recruiting.
It does, try reading the OP.
Read the title again very carefully. IoJ is not mentioned.
I see a lot of posts recently about people wanting Oceanics to come to them. Well, IoJ has been asking for NA players for a long time. Isle of Janthir offers an organized community for WvW, with experience fighting against every top level server and guild in the game. It also is home to great Oceanic guilds and players with great attitudes
IoJ’s story has never changed, we have always been outmanned and asked for just a few more to rally to us. Our core has stayed strong and is still here. We are finally getting our PVE community to engage in WvW, slowly, but if we can awaken them we can become terrifying very quickly. We are asking for a few more WvW focused guilds to reach critical mass. 10 more skilled WvW players in NA & EU time can make a huge difference.
Does it HAVE to be in the title, or can it be expected one would actually read the post?
Minion Master build useless in sPvP, build remained unfixed and buggy.
Shroudstomping support competitive in sPvP, has to be nurfed.
- Mist-form stomping remains usable.
- Elixir S stomping remains usable.
Both of these are done in the exact same way as shroud stomping (Finisher key + utility skill key at the same time)I think that’s the main point of the the posters of this thread, and a legit question for any dev to answer.
Actually, for both Elixir S and Mist Form, you don’t need to hit it at the same time, you can actually use Elixir S or Mist Form at any point before or during your stomp animation.
They work slightly differently.
This is why I believe it is was a bug, and will eventually be “fixed” (nerfed) at some point, similar to what just happened with Mesmer shatter.
That’s not to say I don’t think it’s ridiculous to take it out, they should make it so you can stomp in DS, period. If you have the stability talent, then you have a protected stomp just like a number of other classes do.
If any class has access to a protected stomp, then they all should. Balance around how accessible that protection is if need be, but the option should be there for everyone.
First thing I would do is modify Lich and Plague a bit and make them F2 + F3, sharing the same Life Pool as DS. Gives our class ability some variance and strategic choice, and we could have some elites that are … elite.
I really like the idea of a VERY effective life drain as an elite option.
Since he mainly blew up underleveled folks, it’s really not the best argument. But one part did bother me. When he jumped off the ledge to go after that Asura, which he attacked when he had like 10% health, NO one should feel comfortable going into a fight with 10% health, against sub-80’s or not.
I’m still working my way through many of them for my monthly, so there’s quite a few I haven’t seen yet.
But so far, I liked the Hidden Garden quite a bit. The Griffonrook was very frustrating for me, after 30 or so tries, I just ran through for the discovery without the bomb.
We all know it’s coming because of berserker shatter mesmer’s and that bug with shatter.
I’m just coming back from a little break.. What bug are you talking about?
Read:
I missed this shatter bug, what exactly is bugged about shatter?
There’s no bug. People assume it’s a bug because ANet hasn’t commented on it. It has to do with using a Shatter 2 or 3 and then popping out 3 more clones and hitting Mind Wrack so that you get the additional clone count for damage scaling.
Personally I think the scaling was intended, I just don’t think they expected people to get7-9 clones being counted in the shatter scale. To fix the issue they simply just need to cap the shatter scaling at a max of 5 or 6 clones. It’s not even really an issue for the most part since it has been around since beta, but now that more people are aware of it there’s been an endless stream of QQ threads.
NO this is not what the exploit that people are using is. It involves timing 3 clones to do daze/vulnerability and same clones hitting WM. No need to even summon another 3 clones. So it is a bug because 3 clones are being used to do 2 shatters.
Just fix the bug. why nerf?
Becasuse fixing the bug IS a nerf, at least relatively. And that’s how some folks like to see things. Just because you’re balanced means it’s time to reroll. Any sort of challenge would be entirely unacceptable.
mesmer is op class, and ppl who say they arent are ppl playing mesmers. anet pls also do something about those dozens of clones coming out on me during few seconds when im vs mesmer cuz its really ridiculous thx. mesmer is op, end of story.
You’re just bad, sorry.
That’s not to say that there aren’t some OP things about a mesmer, but if you haven’t figured out the clone game yet, you’re not trying or paying attention.
1.) Our movement speed is pretty awful. If you just don’t play anyone else until you hit 80, you’ll forget and become used to it. That’s the only work around. Having said that, you do not NEED focus. You’re already slow, if you feel another offhand will suit you better, then whatever, just use it.
2.) Our AE is awful. When I play DE’s with any of my alts, I relish how easy it is to tag mobs and get drops from almost every one. You have to work your tail off to have half the efficiency a Necro has with DE tagging.
3.) But you know what? It’s not the end of the world, and the Mesmer is a lot of FUN to play (at least for me). I enjoyed and had a lot of success building toward a condition / survival spec (Illusions, Chaos, Dueling traits and stats). I carried a Staff since ~level 4 and still carry one. My swap weapons have changed regularly, but that Staff has been a constant. It’s slow, but it’s hard to die using one.
But as most folks say, once you have enough points, the class starts to get efficient and you see a large power gain. I’m not entirely sure every class doesn’t suffer from the same, but perhaps Mesmer is hit a little harder than others. The short of it is, if you’re not having fun, play something else.
good to know you blew 40+ days of your life doing nothing substantial. Or almost 60 days including your sleeps.
someone is bitter
I hate to say it, or just realistic. I suppose I could be bitter about someone who spends close to all their free time in one spot, but why would I be?
Someone tell me if my math is wrong, out of a possible 3672 hours since release, he’s played 1000. So just over 27% of his time is spent in front of a computer playing one game.
edit I don’t mean to be rude though —- Congratulations on your achievement, Volkon.
(edited by Mister Mustard.7203)
I say this with some trepidation, however I believe the Dungeon Finder Era has ruined the imagination of a slew of gamers.
Folks are used to logging in, hitting the lfg button, and silently plowing through some dungeon that looks a lot like the one you did last year. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy that to a large degree myself.
However, I got tired of it having played a game or three that was very similar in styling since ~2004. I am not alone, but I don’t think I’m the majority either. Some folks are into their comfort zone and refuse to get out of it, others are simply too interested in vertical progression to be bothered to find something to do here. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, it just is what it is.
Basically this game is different. There is literally a ton of stuff to do if you’re willing to do it. But, if you want to just queue for your LFG run of the day / week, well there are other games on the market that are probably more of what you’re looking for.
The thing is, the main power of stealth (especially for the Mesmer) is target dropping. A longer/more powerful stealth doesn’t contribute to that, more frequent stealth does. Unless you’re saying that’s the Thief’s domain and the Mesmer shouldn’t have more frequent stealth, but even with 45s CD MI (and hopefully 60s CD Veil) the Mesmer still couldn’t stealth half as frequently as the Thief could.
Right, the Thief does benefit much more, but for the Mesmer dropping target is a very strong tool when used at the right time. I believe that “right time” should be a real choice opposed to being “all the time.”
With time warp the way it is why would you EVER use mass invis? Even if the duration was 3 minutes for the stealth.
This is the last thing I thought I’d see.
I much prefer MI over TW simply because it has a much shorter CD. I prefer to be able to use my skills often over a powerful skill I can only use rarely.
Plus I like stealth builds. Anyways, halve its CD to 45s and I’d say it’s worthy of an Elite slot.
From the perspective of using skills more often, I feel the same way except for stealth. While we don’t gain anywhere near the utility that a thief gains from entering stealth, I’d still like less, but more powerful usage of it across the board in this game. I think everything could remain as it is (cooldown, cast time, etc) and they could just add something fun to it … like clones spawn for everyone stealthed, or couple seconds of distortion for everyone, etc.
I haven’t read most of the thread, but I seriously disagree with the OP.
I think the best route to go with stealth to fit GW2 game play, is to make it much more powerful but much less frequent.
Stealth abilities should make the user immune to damage for a short period, but I’d like to see them only on long cooldown utilities. Fix CnD and Prestige however you see fit to compensate for that. Make people choose stealth as a utility itself, not the catch-all crutch it is now.
If you’re that price conscious, perhaps in the future you should pay attention to what time of year retail sales occur most frequently.
Around the Holidays, you are often able to find good deals. Some items pre-Christmas, others after. If price factors the most in your decision making, you (in hindsight) should have waited a month to purchase the game. You never know when or if something will go on sale, but if you educate yourself properly you can make informed decisions and limit how often you’re ‘burned’ by something going on sale soon after you purchased it at full price.
Or.
You could rake your neighbor’s lawn or something and just buy what you want, when you want, and not complain about getting ‘middle fingers’ because you happened to buy at the wrong time.
When your argument does not revolve around editing the “opposition’s” point of view without offering any insights yourself, other than generally hinting at a class as OP then your comments will stop being taken as QQ,or if you prefer “forum whining”. Glad we are clear.
My argument has been much more than that, it’s not my problem you fail to look past my altering your text. That seems to have really ruffled your feathers, so I apologize for that.
From the small amount of information you have provided, you believe thieves are either rolling balls of death spamming HS til they are dry of initiative (then what after ? You didn’t elaborate) or they are condition specced. That shows to me that you either have never played a thief, or have not experimented with yours very much.
No, I do not live in a world of absolutes. Yes, the vast majority of Thieves are glass cannons of some sort — backstab and shortbow builds are popular, and yes, you do run across a number that Mug > CnD > BS > HS till you die. The Wild Bill P/D build is surging in popularity. Death Blossom condition builds are popular as well. If you need more help with builds, there’s a sticky at the top of each class forum.
To elaborate on your initiative concerns:
Opportunist
Signet Use
IoS
Patience
Klepto
HR
Last I checked, Initial Strike is still broken, so I won’t include it.
Stealth is also an option (and a precursor to some of the abilities anyway).
You also talk about initiative, and how it is encourages spamming.
Indeed there is no stopping a thief burning of of his initiative pressing 2 or 3 but where does that leave him afterward?
Unless of course you are facing a player that is just happy to take it, it is a very basic and may I say "stupid"build and won’t work on anyone with a bit of a brain.
Also to really be an effective enough method of taking down his opponents the said thief would have to invest heavily in power and precision, which leaves him with no survivability. Very risky build with little chance of paying off.
First, the Initiative bit. I don’t like Initiative as a class resource as it encourages spamming abilities, and discourages weapon swapping. Your Best Skill Available is … always available (contingent upon resource management). So there’s no need to swap to a secondary weapon, unless you’re using it for utility. I don’t like this because I feel the weapon swap is what gives GW2 it’s flavor and build diversity. It’s important that my Mesmer or Necro choose an appropriate swap weapon to complement my primary weapon’s damage. For the Thief, your choice is more for utility and escape, which limits diversity and the player having to make the right choice at the right time. This is all compounded by the stealth mechanic, which allows you to repeatedly reset a fight, allow your initiative to regain, and spam your BSA again.
Second, you basically just said to be effective, your hypothetical Thief would have to be … a glass cannon. “Very risky build with little chance of paying off.” Think about what you’re arguing here.
Perhaps for now on we can just infer what reasonable people would assume about some of the details instead of asking for everything to be spelled out.
Am I ignoring a key ability? That is personal preference, my play style doesn’t incorporate it and I do just fine and enjoy the game.
You’re certainly right about that. I just picked on that comment because, after all, it is a very nice ability (gap close, execution). Despite it’s reputation as a newb spam ability, it certainly has its place. But you play however you want to, I will never (seriously) knock someone for having fun in a game.
So Mister Mustard, what profession is it that you play? I am curious seeing how you are so adamant about railing against the Thief.
I’m mainly a Mesmer. I started as a Thief on release, and after trying out a number of alts as one is bound to try with a new game, I got hooked on the Mesmer. I have recently started leveling a Necro as well. Mesmer is 80, Thief is ~65, Necro is ~35.
And to be clear, I don’t intend to rail on Thieves. I do play one (not my main admittedly). I think stealth is a crutch and provides too much benefit to the class, which in turn hurts its ability to ever be enjoyable and balanced.
Most players chose to play thief not to simply spam 2 on and on and on again…
If by ‘most’ you mean a couple. Those two are busy spamming 3.
Just saying that proves you have no idea how to play a thief. Also it invalidates pretty much all of your QQing.
And just so we’re clear, we do not need you to “fix” what we have said. That is rude and unconstructive.
That post was almost entirely tongue-in-cheek, mainly to symbolize how ridiculous I feel the quoted arguments are.
I apologize if you took it as rudeness, and I’m not sure how arguing for the opposing view is unconstructive. What is rude and unconstructive, however, is flatly dismissing my comments as “QQing” and invalid. Just so we’re clear.
People keep complaining about spamming 2 with D/* as a finisher, but what would the alternative be? Autoattack? Deathblossom is decent for a condition build, DD is pitiful for real damage output now, and CnD would just put you back in stealth assuming you aren’t revealed. Other classes would use this opportunity to weapon swap, but due to our global cool down this wouldn’t do any good unless traited to 30 in acrobatics. So if you do switch and want to stay in close combat, you have the choice of sword and, oh yeah, sword. On sword you have auto attack, a gap closer, and either FS or PW depending on your offhand. Being able to spam HS is the trade-off for the lack of other abilities and being tied to a global cooldown.
Err. Uh. Every class (except Engineers) have the exact same constraints. Except that all the other classes are also constrained by the ability itself going on cooldown.
Thief is only limited by Initiative, hence the relative encouragement to spam abilities.
I run D/D so it would directly affect me, but any thief worth anything knows there are numerous ways to kill more effectively then HS. I understand why people would complain about it, but it’s easily evaded and counter attacked.
So you roll D/D and just completely ignore one of your key abilities?
People also complain a lot about perma-stealth thieves, what? It’s not like they spawn and can instantly have permanent stealth, it requires setup and is not easily reset during combat (if you are playing against someone who knows how to play).
Seriously, you have to like make sure you’re not blind and in melee range, then you have to press 5. The set up is so intense!
Most players chose to play thief not to simply spam 2 on and on and on again…
If by ‘most’ you mean a couple. Those two are busy spamming 3.
The class has so much more to offer than other classes and despite the constant nerfs remains extremely easy and powerful.
Fixed that for you.
What a lot of people don’t understand (I still think HS could use a decent nerf for above 50% hp, I think it still should be a viable finisher) is that HS can put a thief at a disadvantage during a fight. You burn through initiative, and get yourself within melee range fully visible. Any decent player could easily immobilize and kill the thief in seconds, seconds.
LOL. Yeah, man that instant gap closer that also hits like a truck sure is a disadvantage! If the opponent actually saw me, they could possibly have a chance to fight back!! And I’m too busy telling others to l2p to be bothered to slot a stun break.
I play Warrior, Engineer, Elementalist and Ranger too. Guess what. I have no issues against Thieves or any other professions, so your point is stillborn.
I anticipate, dodge and use my utilities and elite. I would suggest that others do the same.
Right, I’m sure you’re an amazing player who will be successful with any class. Blindfolded. No one is suggesting that Thieves are godmode and never die (well I imagine someone has, but any reasonable person will dismiss that).
What we’re suggesting is that there are glaring advantages Thieves enjoy, which are magnified in a contest between average skilled players. Look, I’m all for folks learning and getting better. Kudos to those who take the time to study and work hard to achieve their goals, be it irl or in a video game. But I don’t think a video game should have one class that is comparatively powerful at moderate to lower ability, defended by saying it’s balanced at the top.
You keep saying, in essence, “l2p.” If it were that simple, wouldn’t there be a hundred QQ posts about your Warrior, Elementalist, Engineer, and Ranger as well? When all of you keyboard ninjas get on your alts, wouldn’t that make the rest of us idiots start crying about those classes as well?
People hate thieves because they don’t want to have to think to hard when fighting them. They are only concerned with how their profession performs. [] Here in lies the problem, people don’t want to actually learn how to deal with a thief. Instead it is easier to complain about them.
I am simply astonished at how many people never dodge or read their opponent.
Some professions are more forgiving with it, because they have innately more health and armor. As a Thief, you have the lowest and you have to learn how to read your opponent. Otherwise Thieves will come into the forums crying about how OP Warriors etc are because you got one shot with full endurance.
Again with this argument.
All the fast-twitch, super skilled, genius ninjas who play blindfolded in yoga positions and anticipate your every move, ALL ROLLED THIEF. Meanwhile, every other class is populated by the mouth-breathing idiots of the general populous. AMAZING HOW THAT HAPPENED, WHAT ARE THE CHANCES??!?
In summary, people are fine with 100b warriors killing them in 1.5 seconds for the same reason that they aren’t fine with BS thieves killing them in 1.5 seconds, it all has to do with how the human brain processes a surprising event and kicks into action.
I absolutely agree. However, I think there is an extra level of hate in this particular game because Thieves can reset that surprise state nearly at will.
If you dodge the Warrior’s Bull Charge, you can limit the amount of damage and retaliate, putting pressure on the Warrior. Or even if you were surprised by it, you can still stun break and not eat the entirety of 100B, and you are then able to retaliate and put pressure on the Warrior.
If you time it perfectly and dodge the invisible Backstab, and avoid most of the Heartseekers, the Thief then just hits 5, or 6, or whatever SR or BP are bound to, and resets. You are able to retaliate only in a very limited fashion, if you have an attack that will fire without a target or some AE.
I played this guy on a mesmer and he would wait until I missed a CnD and I was exposed for a few seconds and then he would root me and burst me down. Not with his sword either he used some other different abilities and it killed me every time.
The Illusions trait line, as with all the other trait lines in the fifth slot, is the class line. It mirrors the Primary Attribute from the original Guild Wars, which so defined the class that you were gimping yourself if you ignored it. Monks that didn’t put points in Divine Favor threw away half of their healing, on average, and Warriors who didn’t put anything into Strength did significantly less weapon damage than Warriors who did. The same principle still applies in Guild Wars 2: if you ignore your fifth trait line, you’re going to be a bad example of your class because you haven’t put any resources into improving the core feature of your class. So I see no problems with a Mesmer who puts 0 points in Illusions feeling like dead weight. That’s because they are.
And that’s just not a good argument. If that were the case, then you should by default have that trait line filled, and then the remaining points would be discretionary. The benefit of the line should be to your unique class abilities, not necessary for your class, especially if you choose to strengthen other possible areas than those unique to the class.
I feel the same way about Deceptive Evasion. If you like clones, it’s not absolutely necessary, but it may as well be.
It feels like there are more mesmers in the game than any other class.
I’m guessing that is because 5,484 is a lot larger of a number than 1,886. Any time you see a mesmer, you usually see 4 of them.
It does surprise me to see that they aren’t that popular. Everybody wants a portal, but nobody is willing to make them themselves. :P
Mesmers are also admittedly not the most … intimidating? class. Lots of butterflies and whatnot. It may not sway everyone, but I imagine it’s stopped some.
It was down for a whole minute to update your game? What a bother.
Seriously.
Get a grip on yourself, OP.
It’s not a coincidence.
All (ok both) mainhand weapons spawn clones and only clones.
All offhand weapons spawn phantasms and only phantasms.
It’s by design.
However, I do think your suggestion is, in some regard, right on the money. I think the clone should spawn immediately on the #2, regardless of whether or not a block occurs. Or it should spawn on the first hit of the #1 chain, and leave #2 alone. I feel Scepter’s only drawback is it cannot produce a clone immediately with one button press, while all other weapons do have that capability. I understand it’s supposed to be a tradeoff for them spawning on the auto attacks, but being able to control more precisely when I produce clones is a far better mechanic.
Watch the Wild Bill videos, as 98% of P/D thieves watched it and are trying to copy what he does.
They will stealth. A lot. And while they’re stealthed, they heal.
They will then pop out of stealth with Sneak Attack – the pistol equivalent of backstab – a rapid series of shots that puts a bunch of bleeds on you.
So two things. One, be able to remove conditions. Two, know when to dodge. The only reason he’s going to try to get in melee range of you is to use CnD. (That’s the dagger #5 that stealths them). Don’t let that happen. Also, familiarize yourself with how long their stealths last, and what they look like. A P/D thief will try to stay in stealth till the last possible second to maximize regen, so you need to be dodging the moment it’s going to end (not the moment you see him) so you eat the fewest amount of bullets from Sneak Attack. You’re going to get a good amount of bleeds on you regardless, but this ability is pretty much the only thing they can do that hurts and stacks bleeds quickly.
After he pops thieves guild, shadow refuge, and then realizes you’re not just going to die, you get to watch him switch to mainhand dagger and run away. Congrats.
Btw, these guys can seem super tanky if they can stealth and heal a lot, and usually run carrion gear for high(er) HP. But they’re still very lacking in armor, and if you can keep them out of stealth by limiting how often they can use CnD, their survivability drops dramatically.
Mostly curiosity, mesmers seem to be pretty powerful, I just want to see who could best them. And yeah I mean if they have all 30s, and ya know everything else.
I agree us Memsers can be pretty strong in certain ways. Shatter build burst is pretty high, and we do have a lot of tools to keep folks off us. But, we ARE pretty squishy once you do lock us down.
The 30/30/30/30/30 concept makes it quite tricky to figure out. I still think the guardian will benefit more from having access to all trait lines simultaneously. However, certain gimmicky things may counter that (like a constant boon removal may do a guardian in).
That is exactly the build I run (except I often put Dueling II in instead of I). I have yet to actually kill a D/D Ele, but I haven’t been killed by one either. There is one other major difference in my build – I run Blink, Null Field, and alternate between Decoy and Feedback. Null Field is huge as it gets rid of conditions on you and boons on them (Ele’s & Guardians are very reliant on boons). And it’s another combo field for Chaos Armor.
Also, what are you using this build for? It’s my WvW / general solo world build, and I seem to recall I didn’t care for it as much in SPvP. I ask as I’m mainly curious about what gear you’re using as well.
In condition builds using staff, is sword + pistol with condition/precision stats viable or must one drop sword/pistol and go scepter/torch?
As Embolism said, your secondary weapon(s) can be for whatever you feel. I generally use it for 1.) burst and 2.) utility. I usually use Scepter + X depending on what I’m doing, and use the #3 ability + F2 to stack Confusion as my burst. Alternatively, Sword #2 + F1 still provides a lot of pop, even if you’re not built to maximize it. It also works great as a sort of surprise tactic if your opponent is lulled to sleep a bit trying to work through your Staff play.
I’ve only a baby necro, so my opinion may not be the best. But from what I’ve seen, it’s best use is as a secondary health pool giving time for abilities to cooldown. It appears to be primarily a defensive ability. Of course that’s not all you can use it for, but I think that’s the best use.
Hrm, what’s with the Mesmer vs. threads?
I’m confused about what you’re looking for. Are you asking if both characters are in 30/30/30/30/30 builds with all weapon and utilities on a hotbar, who would win?
Or are you saying if someone could play any plausible build, who would win?
If it’s the former, I want to say Guardian; I think the possible combination of damage + defense is greater than that of a Mesmer. However, the remove boon on shatter trait the Mesmer could use may reverse that outcome.
If it’s the latter, it really depends on how each is built, there’s no way around it.
For a frame of reference, I play a Mesmer, haven’t played Ranger at all (I’m here as I’m thinking of starting an alt).
First:
Blink, and Mass invisilibty. That’s 9 seconds invisible. There’s also MOA for 10 seconds of kitten and Time Warp for 10 seconds of hyperactivness.
You just listed all 3 elites. If you find any opponent of any class who can have all 3 elites up at the same time, your goose is probably cooked.
But to address the issue, it’s really just like any other matchup in this game. How are you built and how is your opponent built? Both Glass Cannon? Both Condition / Bunker? Specific styles and builds will be inherently stronger against others. I see some of you saying you hate getting hit by the huge shatter and Blurred Frenzy. Others say they hate getting whittled down by the Staff guy who’s impossible to kill. Of course, those two guys CANNOT be the same guy. It’s up to you to determine which he is and if your build + ability can counter.
Also, I say this after just a cursory glance at the Ranger utilities, I would probably never run a Ranger in a pvp situation without Lightning Reflexes. I’m not sure what else you have for a stun break (especially one that moves you) but that’s really going to mess up those shatter mesmers if you pop it when they try to pull the root+frenzy+shatter combo. Condition removal at the right time is also big, as you’ll clear the bleeds and confusion (which I think is probably akin to losing your pet as far as damage reduction goes).
Edit I just re-read the original post, and I don’t think he was asking what I thought he was asking. If this is supposed to be two characters built 30/30/30/30/30, who would win … I don’t think the Ranger has enough on-demand condition removal to survive the 20+ stacks of confusion I would put on him.
(edited by Mister Mustard.7203)
Excellent, well thought out post, OP. I’ve been wanting to play engineer since launch, and I’ve rolled 3 different times. The flexibility is enticing, but I similarly felt you gave up too much and gained too little, especially in the area of random effects.
And again here it is, you don’t like X mechanic so it must be the problem as to why I CAN’T WIN! See here’s the best part, you can win, they die as fast as any other glass cannon, and in some cases, even faster. You can make up as many excuses as you want as to why X needs to be nerfed and all you’re still doing is voicing why it gives YOU trouble. It’s not giving 99.9% of the rest of the people who don’t suck trouble, because I don’t see them here on this forum whining about it. It’d be one thing if instead of 200 posts and 2000 views on a post it was 350,000 posts and 4,000,000 views, but it’s not. It’s the kids who want X nerfed so they can eat their cake and have it too.
It’s not the game, it’s the players, and it’s been this way ever since the RPG mentality started. Anything and everything that people see as overpowered is immediately jumped on, and in this case, it’s the history of Stealth mechanics. And when companies start to balance around either Stealth or Burst damage, they don’t get it right and the class dies. Rogue in Rift=Dead. Witch Elf in Warhammer=Dead. The only Stealth type that is still around is the Rogue in World of Warcraft and right now they’re dead last in usefulness (again, according to players). The only reason they never completely died off is because the way Blizzard made every class almost able to do everything. Now the Rogue can half tank, can be DPS and has a much passive healing as a gd Druid kitten They’ve turned all the interesting classes into one big ball of shiet with only a handful of skills reminding you that you even have classes at all.
I’m fine with taking Stealth away, I don’t need it, and if they left it behind, much more fun for me. You know why? Because if they took it out, if they change it completely, whatever they do, YOU people will still cry about losing to them. If you’re not crying about Stealth, it’d be Burst Damage. If you don’t cry about Burst Damage, it’d be Condition Damage. If it was just kittening auto attack, you’d cry about that. I’m indifferent about the whole damn mess because the world keeps on spinning regardless of what any of you or I want, it upsets me because there’s barely even a decent argument or solution presented by anybody in any of these forums. It’s all still boiling down to “you lost, you’re upset, you’re crying about it”
And yes looking at real world events should be things normal humans do, whether you like it or not, this is still a video game and none of what you waste your time, anger or frustration on means anything at all here. So rather than worrying to death, and crying to everybody that you’re the victim, that there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s always something else or someone else’s fault, maybe you should step back, breath and move on. Enjoy the game as it is, for what it is, or don’t play it.
Some bullet points to address this:
- If it’s simply a matter of, “you lost, you’re upset, you’re crying about it” then explain why there aren’t threads on page 1 looking in depth to the reason why everyone gets rolled over by Engineers? Or Necros? Or Mages? Or Guardians? Or Elementalists? Or Mesmers? Or Warriors? Or Rangers? Why do thieves continue to be a hot issue? Is it because somehow, all the inept morons rolled every class but thief, and all the genius keyboard ninjas rolled thief?
- What do the raw numbers of posts have to do with anything? There may not be 350,000 people on the forum, and that’s the number you want to get a ‘feel’ for the community? Why not form an opinion off of what you DO see, because that’s all you can do. And what I DO see is one class forum that has a thread started by a developer specifically to discuss gameplay and feedback. Which happens to currently have over 1000 replies.
- Of course people are going to jump all over what they see as “overpowered.” If your class has to put out 1/2 the effort or skill to achieve the same results as my class, why am I playing my class (from a pure performance standpoint).
- Who cares what other games have failed with in the past? Right now, in this game, is the time to get it right. Stealth has a place. It just doesn’t have a place as the end-all be-all bastion of power that it is today. I have faith that there are smart people who can design it to be fun, rewarding, and balanced.
…do you people really need to come to a video game forum to cry about how one pile of virtual pixels needs to virtually kill another pile of virtual pixels to satisfy your need to win without effort? /shrug
No, but I question why so many need to defend their current ability to kill those other virtual pixels without effort.
And I talk about those other things with my friends and family. I’m here because I want to talk about a game. Not that I personally mind folks making threads and discussing those things, because let’s be honest, they are MUCH more important than the video game. But please don’t presume us callous or judge our intent as we carry on our lives how we see fit.
A simple solution would be to add diminishing returns on stealth. Thieves are designed to burst and then flee/reset if they fail to kill you. They shouldn’t be in 5-10 minute long wars of attrition, which is what stealth juggling allows them to do.
I’m of the opinion that if you can survive for 60-90 seconds against a thief, then you deserve the win.
Well, unless they’re built that way. That’s the most appealing aspect of this game (to me); that you potentially can play any class however you feel. I don’t mind losing to an attrition build who ran circles around me. But I agree with your sentiment 100% if it’s the burst builds you’re facing. The ‘glass cannons’ shouldn’t have ~infinite resets and escape mechanisms when I do actually counter their garbage.
Maybe bads should stop freaking out every time an enemy isn’t constantly visible.
Of course people are going to freak out about the invisible. We’re not ALL Jedi warriors here.
But the problem isn’t just the stealth itself. It’s being invisible coupled with its inherent and traited defenses, along with an opportunity for high damage openers. The thief gains utility, defense, and offense all from one ability, requiring no choice or trade-off. I don’t think any other class benefits as much from a single mechanic.
The key concept is trading survivability for burst. I feel that trade isn’t made; stealth accomplishes both.
He does mention using AoE or large stacks of conditions. But he fails to mention you need to have enough toughness and vitality so you can survive long enough to use these counters.
Or that for the latter, you need to be able to see the thief long enough to actually apply some conditions.
I can’t imagine the cowardice to do something like this to defenseless people in the first place, much less defenseless children.
My heart goes out to those affected by this.
That would make things worst actually. No need to hit with an ability to go to stealth…unless you put a CD on that new stealth ability. Please realize, thiefs don’t have any kind of protection outside the occasional blind and stealth (no protection, stability, or block, regen is tied to a trait while stealthed). We have a few evades, but most root you in place and don’t have you evading during the full animation (block some damage, but unable to do anything about the rest while the animation finishes). Also, at 2 initiative, this would grant some builds free stealth initiation, with 1 initiative/sec cost.
This is very true, and the heart of the problem. Stealth is unfortunately the crutch fix-all for the class. It’s the entirety of it’s defense AND it’s the catalyst for offense. The class relies on it too much, and it’s thus too strong.