It’s there for the same reason that escorting yaks gives you no real reward anymore. Because people will rig a match to farm it. Whole zergs used to just run around avoiding each other and escorying yaks
It’s a balance. If you run condi u think there is to much resistance. If you don’t have great condi clear you think there is to much condi in the game. If you run many cc’s you think to much stab. If you don’t have enough stab you think cc’s need nerfed. To many boons now not enough boon strips. If you have a balanced team none of this matters. If your a solo artist, expect there to be a class that can alwYs kill you.
Ya but having 10 minutes of stacked regen and swiftness on the enemy before any fighting actually starts (and they have time to swap out to a none boon gearset right before the fight. enabling a player to have an extra one of those things you listed, so combine 3 of those types together like condi+boon+power)….kinda dumb.
If we follow ur argument of x counters y….then countering is impossible when they have have a friggin x y AND z more extra type of damage than you do. THEY ARE 3DIMENSIONAL AND THAT IS JUST PLAIN FURRY KITTEN LIZARDS>
So they spent 15 mins doing nothing but preparing and stacking their boons before engaging you. If they are that much better prepared than you are then they kinda deserve to win.
The problem with the Desert BL is that it is too large, too convoluted with verticality, and the objectives hold very little to no importance.
In the Alpine map, you can put a treb in a tower, and assault a keep, or a garrison. In the DBL….you can’t at all…anywhere, so the structures are just insignificant “capture points” and any strategic use they have is gone.
Towers on DBL used to be important in that they help control and slow down where an enemy zerg can go. But people complained that barricades were too strong, so barricades were made weaker. Then people complained that barricades exists at all, so barricades were removed. Then people went back to complaining that towers were useless.
Chris and I just made several informative posts about World Linking on Reddit. I’m reposting them here.
On Population Caps
Some information behind the current server population cap behavior:
Many may already know this bit, but for anyone else who doesn’t: world population is determined by activity level in WvW (Edge of the Mists and Obsidian Sanctum don’t count). If World A has many-times the number of players on it as World B, but World A does’t play WvW at all and World B plays tons of WvW, A will have the lowest population, and B will have a very high one.This is the main problem since day 1 . Servers can manipulate their full server status by avoiding WvW for a few weeks so they can recruit more guilds and when they do recruit the server comes out to play again which creates a bigger lopsided score .
Full servers should only change to high status if people transfer off .that doesn’t work, what if half your WvW population genuinely quit the gamemode but stays on the server and are still doing PvE and PvP? You have no numbers yet you still counted as full.
PvE and PvP are irrelevant only WvW activity counts, despite what Tyler said they were trying to achieve the top tier servers all gamed the system because they were prepared to not play WvW for the month required and the population went down sufficiently to open the servers.
Tyler said they wanted it at more than 2 weeks because it would be gamed but they obviously settled on a period of about 4 weeks and it was gamed successfuly.
I know that the current system can be gamed. But what exactly is the point in spending time and effort converting a system that we know can be gamed, to a system that we know 100% doesn’t work?
Chris and I just made several informative posts about World Linking on Reddit. I’m reposting them here.
On Population Caps
Some information behind the current server population cap behavior:
Many may already know this bit, but for anyone else who doesn’t: world population is determined by activity level in WvW (Edge of the Mists and Obsidian Sanctum don’t count). If World A has many-times the number of players on it as World B, but World A does’t play WvW at all and World B plays tons of WvW, A will have the lowest population, and B will have a very high one.This is the main problem since day 1 . Servers can manipulate their full server status by avoiding WvW for a few weeks so they can recruit more guilds and when they do recruit the server comes out to play again which creates a bigger lopsided score .
Full servers should only change to high status if people transfer off .
that doesn’t work, what if half your WvW population genuinely quit the gamemode but stays on the server and are still doing PvE and PvP? You have no numbers yet you still counted as full.
Thanks Tyler
I really like the ideas of switching world links more often and not linking T1 / T2 at all. They just don’t need it as their own populations are still far larger then combined populations of lower T3 and below servers.
I can agree somewhat about T1, unlink the extra transfers into ET from BG and unlinked TC/DB may be able to compete somewhat with BG but that’s not guaranteed.
But what’s your definition of T2 though? Current rank 4-6? Because if you look at those, JQ/IoJ has a dominating OCX/SEA and an EU/NA that can’t compete with the other rank 4-6 servers at all.
FA/BP ranked 6 linked together is losing by a decent(but not runaway) margin to Mag/DR ranked 7 and technically in T3. Unlink BP from FA and they’d be no match against Mag/DR linked.
And what happens if Mag/DR moves up to T2? Unlink them for that matchup? So they lose a lot of what made them competitive to be in that tier in the first place?
A lot of people’s suggestions are easy to say and seems nice on paper but isn’t actually possible to implement in a practical way. Like the suggestions about an algorithm that automatically links servers dynamically, I agree with a lot of the criterias being suggested for the imaginary server and matchmaking algorithm, but have you(not you specifically) thought about how to actually implement them in a practical way?
There are things that are relatively easy but time consuming for a human to do e.g. making sense of large sets of complex data, but near impossible for a computer algorithm to do. Computers are great for doing large amounts of (relatively) simple calculations and processing. They’re not great at handling a near infinite amount of possible scenarios. Take a look at the IBM AI Watson for example.
edit: because Watson got censored…
(edited by Nate.3927)
A server isnt full unless it has queues on all 4 maps during primetime.
This is where you’re wrong
I don’t know why the people stopped playing wvw. I do know that there are a lot of new people playing wvw, and I am not sure if the new players appreciate what they missed before the change.
Your fairweathers left because you’re no longer blobbing over everyone in T2 24/7 now BG is blobbing you that’s what really happened. That’s what always happens on most servers tbh, when you win by a little bit, everybody comes out and all of a sudden you win by a lot. When you lose by a little bit people don’t want to try so numbers slowly go down until you start losing by a lot.
And why just 75% is the acceptible poll? Why not 85%-90% for the example??
What about the rest of 25% those are running spawn death rows? They are the expendable minority?Outrageous! This is just an evidence that there are no system that is suits everybody! Balance people, balance!
why are you contradicting yourself in a single post?
if you get salty whispers after killing someone then you’re doing something right.
wait so you want server caps removed so that people “quit trying to transfer” ??? Wouldn’t that just make everyone bandwagon on to I assume BG?
I’m at work right now. Is that for gold, badges or proofs?
I had my alt account on ET before the link to experience the quieter pace of low pop WvW. Unfortunately… the link means both my accounts are effectively on the same server.
Highly recommended for players to make accounts on other tiers. It’s always an eye opener to see how different tiers do things differently to yours.
Why unfortunately? I would’ve loved it if IoJ got paired with FA since then I can play with my IoJ guildies using my FA account.
you know what would be the best time for reset? 8PM on a Friday, New Zealand time…
shouldnt be boosted by much if it does get one. most people hate auto upgrades. that was one of the biggest gripes a lot of people had with the dbl.
uh no it isn’t. In the past not only do I have to babysit yaks, I also had to keep on reminding people not to take supply, then I had to spend my own gold(After getting 0 gold for the hour) on upgrading. Now all I really need to do is babysit yaks, which is fine.
Just because you like the change doesn’t mean no one else was against it.
Players have asked for years for the cost of upgrades to be removed (or switched to karma/badges) but the auto upgrades are terrible and lazy. It needs to go back to being player initiated.
I can throw that right back at you, just because you don’t like the change, doesn’t mean that everybody else was also against it.
The purely timer based auto upgrade was too lazy. But the current one is fine, you can very much prevent an objective from upgrading as long as you continue to snipe yaks and retake camps. For most objectives a single roamer can do this, for some you may need 2-3.
Yea, I believe the quarterly schedule on server pairings is more for Anet to analyze the data, make changes, prep changes, etc…..
Ideally, I would like to see the pairings change about every month, if they keep this system after beta.
How many people would be willing to pay the transfer fee potentially every month in order to play with the locked server they want to or with their guild that is on a locked server?
hopefully not many, that way people will actually spread out properly.
I’d fall under the “not many” category. My guild is locked on BG and I have no desire to transfer to ET in order to run guild WvW missions due to potential shuffling of linked servers. The guild leader even told me they’d pay for the transfer, but why waste resources if in a couple of months, ET gets linked to another server.
you can actually still do some of them even if you’re not on the same server e.g. fairly sure the OS mission and the WvW Rank missions are all doable while not on the same server.
I believe it was already mentioned that they won’t be doing any tournaments in the near future and are thinking of different ways to give us access to the tickets.
shouldnt be boosted by much if it does get one. most people hate auto upgrades. that was one of the biggest gripes a lot of people had with the dbl.
uh no it isn’t. In the past not only do I have to babysit yaks, I also had to keep on reminding people not to take supply, then I had to spend my own gold(After getting 0 gold for the hour) on upgrading. Now all I really need to do is babysit yaks, which is fine.
You place them on downed enemies so that when their friends come to rez they get hurt.
Which is a different usage for marks than tagging downed players for loot. I use dagger or shroud for cleaving on downs.
Same. I jump in with shroud, use skill 4 and piercing skill 1 to both tag and hopefully down people, then dagger to cleave and quickly regain lifeforce, then back to shroud again.
Yea, I believe the quarterly schedule on server pairings is more for Anet to analyze the data, make changes, prep changes, etc…..
Ideally, I would like to see the pairings change about every month, if they keep this system after beta.
How many people would be willing to pay the transfer fee potentially every month in order to play with the locked server they want to or with their guild that is on a locked server?
hopefully not many, that way people will actually spread out properly.
Auto attack works dewolfe. Also have you tried using ele air staff 4 on a downed enemy? You think that will get you kill credit? Or static field on a downed enemy? Or guardian staff 4 on a downed enemy? You think any of those will work?
I like playing necro, it’s one of my favourite professions and while I would never say no to more loot, the idea that it’s a bug is wrong. It’s working as designed.
Oh really, well I call this broken and it’s just another one of those things the Dev’s overlook. For Staff Ele, does not all 5 Fire skills work on downed enemies? 13 of the 20 Staff Ele’s skills hit downed players. The others are either defensive or CC’s.
What other Ranged Weapon, out of all Ranged weapons across all professions, has this broken design of an “attack” not hitting downed players? Attack being the keyword because I’m not entertaining a silly discussion over why defensive skills don’t “hit” and enemy. Also, as I’ve stated, I don’t care about the loot discussion as much as I do about actual combat. Marks should be able to hit and help finish off downed players.
I think the biggest difference is that you see marks as a purely offensive skill. I and many others don’t. I see marks, traps etc as a hybrid skill. You place marks/traps in chokes and on portals specifically so that IF the enemy decides to attack you, you can soften them up before they reach you. You place them on downed enemies so that when their friends come to rez they get hurt. The only skill on the necro staff bar that I see as a purely offensive skill is the auto attack.
I have no comment on the gliding, but no 4 already exists as a scribing item.
Wall of but’s I told you to save…
Oh, a Necro can do blah blah blah. I have a weapon, it should work on all enemies regardless of downed state, period. This is the only weapon in game that is broken as such. Broken… b..r..o..k..e..n.. and it should be fixed.
How anyone can excuse this is ridiculous.
Auto attack works dewolfe. Also have you tried using ele air staff 4 on a downed enemy? You think that will get you kill credit? Or static field on a downed enemy? Or guardian staff 4 on a downed enemy? You think any of those will work?
I like playing necro, it’s one of my favourite professions and while I would never say no to more loot, the idea that it’s a bug is wrong. It’s working as designed.
Spacing out the marks sounds like a good idea in general.
Hmm, that does bring up a good question. How is Reaper vs Base Necros when it comes to blobs anyways?
I prefer reaper for roaming at the moment mainly because I just like carrying around a greatsword and GS 5 is fun to use. Reaper shroud also works quite well for stomping while under enemy fire. In a zerg fight if it’s one that actually gets roughly equal number fights I will go vanilla necro for a good mix of damage potential and survivability. If it’s one where we are clearly the dominant server and will steamroll everything I use reaper for faster champ lord burns due to GS 2.
Also yeah I personally spread out my marks and wells to cover as much area as possible , that way even if they dodge they often end up in another one of my wells or pulsing marks
This lack of credit for loot is apparently true for all condition damage in WvW, of which necro marks appear to be 100% condi damage with bleeds, horrors, poison, etc.
:facepalm:
Am I way off, even though it has been brought up before?
You are so completely wrong:
1. Necro marks are not 100% condi damage. I’m not sure anything is, most offensive skills will do at least a little bit of normal damage even if you spec full dire.
2. If condi damage gets you no credit then half of my builds would get no credit, yet they do just fine.
here you go:
Working as intended. The plan is for you to want to transfer to a host server that is full. You will then pay 500 gems to transfer to the guest server of that host. After 4 months, you will get linked to a different host server and pay 500 gems again to transfer to the new guest server of the host server that you like. As a result, you will spend 500 gems every four months in order to play with the host server that you want.
Would hope that was not the intent of Anet, if it was I would quit the game.
TBH being able to transfer to the lower ranked servers in a matchup is not an answer anyway cause of the dynamic nature of server linking.
it is the answer when the goal is for overall population balance. By filling up the lower ranked servers they can eventually become competitive by themselves without needing to be linked to a higher tier server.
No way you were fighting TC and fa in the same match yesterday.
He could have multiple accounts you know. Many of us do.
As for this topic, I think most of it is either good or neutral and worth trying. The only thing I have issue with is the prime time thing. There should be no time slice where it’s always the most valuable. All time slices should either have no multiplier at all or the multiplier is always dependant on activity/population level.
Capture and hold for camp means you need to take at least one other objective nearby since the camp only upgrades if it succesfully delivers enough yaks
I strongly disagree with this, it only locks the tiers in even more. Then people will get bored again of fighting the same people over and over, then they will leave again.
That’s glicko, not what they’re talking about. Which btw they’ve made changes to recently.
Your night is not my night.
Don’t care, time slice scoring needs to be implemented.
It mentions that scores need to be closer. If the scores are closer the glicko rating changes less at the end of each matchup, which means tiers will be even more locked in. Scores being closer AFTER a glicko rating reset may work, but would still be tricky since nobody here can with an honest face say that BG has the same active WvW population as everybody else, or that JQ/YB has the same population as the servers in the T3 matchup etc.
I’m perfectly fine with time slice, time slice implies that each slice is equal. I’m not fine with “Reduce the impact of night capping.” because the earth is in a roughly spherical shape and your night is not my night.
Mawdrey, Princess, Star of Gratitude
Yes the star is only available during Wintersday, and they should probably change that, but you’ve had two Wintersdays to get it and it doesn’t take much effort to get either.
I’m not opposed to more eaters being added. Just saying you can get 2 out of the 3 anytime and missing out on the last one is at least partially your own fault.
Desert != sand sand sand and more sand. I don’t see any issues with the northern parts of the map as far as themes go.
While I do feel Cloaking Waters is OP, any significant nerf to the stealth timer will make it mostly useless.
Your keep/SMC buffs makes no sense. All that will do is let a server that is already the strongest in the matchup to completely roll over their opponents even more because not only do they have a numbers advantage, they will also now have a stat advantage with no cap. It makes even less sense considering you asked Cloaking Waters to be nerfed.
As far as eles go. I would suggest dropping water skill 2/4 on enemies occasionally. That will get you some credit. And you shouldn’t be staying in water attunement 100% of the time anyway.
“Lessen the gap between winning scores and losing scores so losing teams can still recover. -NEED”
I strongly disagree with this, it only locks the tiers in even more. Then people will get bored again of fighting the same people over and over, then they will leave again.
“Reduce the impact of night capping. -NEED”
Your night is not my night.
So im figthing against fa this week, and i feel like in off hours and alot in na prime welp they have bigger numbers then us we cant do kitten
just my two cents
that would be because FA & BP combined has the pop of a T2 server, but is currently fighting in a T3 matchup.
because lag is something that is a complex problem that involves more than just their servers, but also your isp and the local traffic in your area at that point in time just to name a few factors (there are many more factors that these). It’s not like they have a switch that can turn lag on and off
The pairings are done manually and not via algorithm, so they can change it whenever if they feel it’s not working out. That being said they don’t want to have to do it too often. I assume the 3 month figure applies if they feel things are working out reasonably well and is done more so for variety of matchups and rebalancing as servers gain/lose people.
EOTM is your overflow map. As for the OP’s idea, it doesn’t work at all unless you mean to say “+20 compared to the server with the SMALLEST force.” And even then you’re going to effectively annoy more people than you please with a solution like this.
Looking at the Quality of Life voting option in the poll, there is “across map team chat” within that option. That’s good and all, but can we also have map chat made unusable if this change were to take place? Have seen a lot of “Trolls” that ruin the experience for the majority by giving out their own server/ world’s “zerg” positions. (Can also never tell if it’s the enemy server or my own in map chat)
Also, while we are at it, can we have faster reward track progression? I love the idea of it and the new exclusive WvW armors. After 2 years I finally got into WvW because of this
I think you misunderstand how map chat works. Way back closer to release, map chat was across servers so players from all 3 servers in the matchup can communicate with each other while they’re on the same map. But that was changed a long long time ago to be only for your server. Anybody you see talking in map chat is from your server (or the link server since world linking began)
At the moment the only real difference between map chat and team chat is that team chat either has no spam restrictions, or it has a significantly less strict spam restrictions. I can spam TS invite messages endlessly in team chat, but would get temp blocked for spamming after 3-4 messages in map chat.
I would support the idea of faster reward track progression.
My IoJ account doesn’t enjoy the crazy lag it’s getting, but I understand that this is only their first attempt at this and I understand that there are other factors as well. People need to stop being drama queens. It’s reset after a lot of changes to wvw, there will always be extra activity after a patch. And it’s also a beta, if enough people on T6-T8 prefer being linked to other T6-T8 servers and asks for it in a polite way, they will probably try that.
A lot of the issues could be taken care of if the linking/merges changed from week to week, but from what the devs are saying, that’d take more effort than they’re willing to put in.
It’s more work to change it every week indefinitely because it’s a manual process to link the servers. But currently they are effectively linking biggest servers with smallest servers, they could change that way of approaching it if enough people ask for it and maybe make it so that small servers get linked together and matched up against each other. That’s why it’s a BETA. People need to learn to give feedback in a less whiny overdramatic way.
This is the server that was going to move en masse to another one 2 weeks ago?
Had you read that thread you would have seen that multiple people stated that their guilds and themselves were not leaving. No hard feelings to the ones that did leave but while they are a significant chunk of the wvw population they are not everyone
are you actually applying burning or are they dying with the burning animation?
I was in a Successful Battle for Tarir meta and while we are looting the Exalted chests, half way through, many were at the 4th room when the map suddenly CLOSED and kicked all of us into a failed map. Seriously, it was a FULL MAP. Octovine was murdered with lots of time to spare…… And everyone was happy with a successful meta win until the map closed during the looting phase.
Seriously, why is the map still in close mode where there is 80+ players on the map? ANET, you had ONE JOB. ONE JOB.
I want my last Grand Exalted Chest back from that run!!!!!
I spent about 6 hours straight in a single VB map a few days ago. Got the map closing notification multiple times but map never actually closed because at points we got influxes of players (who then left again triggering the map closing notification again).
So they must’ve fixed it in VB at least. My guess is that the AB one is not quite fixed or possibly everybody rushed through the chest run faster than you and then left map.
I don’t think so. And even if they were leaving, it was so sudden without notification, lots people weren’t even done looting with map chat screaming murder and qqing the devs.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Megaservers-8/first#post6019618
According to this they’ve released some very minor changes. So perhaps the reason why my VB was fine is because of those minor changes and AB(and others) just aren’t done yet.
Every account has the exact same chance on RNG.
Then how do you explain a person getting 5 precursors in 20 forges? Luck? Hell no because that same guy will get a precursor drop off a mob in WvW then the next day will get 3 ascended chests and the next day will get another pre off a random mob…. While a person like me can play for 4k hours and not get a single pre.
Same here around 5K hours; no matter what I play or what I put in the forge (& I did put a lot before the prec annoucement like all my yellow weap since 3 years) I never got one.
During this time lot of people of my guild got prec from forge.
Fractal is the same kind of bullkitten: 1 guildmate get an ascended chest almost every 4 days (even 2 sometimes), me none since one month.
So please stop with the “everything fine” when it’s not.
Hours played doesn’t matter when it comes to precursor drops.
Everything is fine. You’re only focusing on the outliers on either end which is not representative of how things are.
I don’t pretend to do statistics & in all truth; I don’t care. This is just unrewarding.
Spending time in the game to have bad reward most of/all the time(no precursor & almost no ascended chest drop) whereas someone have a lot.
That’s the point there.
So basically you’re just unreasonably jealous and angry over something that doesn’t personally affect you. Like when a complete stranger or a friend wins the lottery and you get angry that they won and you didn’t. Because you somehow associate your sense of self worth with in this case in-game wealth/reward.
Every account has the exact same chance on RNG.
No offense, but I will never believe that for a second.
This is why they generally end up giving up responding to threads like this. It’s why I continue to get a chuckle out of them every time they appear.
Nothing they could ever say will convince those who have already made their minds up.
<rng testimony>
So, you tell me if there isn’t a luck factor in a character…..
There isn’t a luck factor in a character. Unless you’re running character-specific MF buffs.
I understand what you mean these people will just not believe you because they don’t want to but tbh the devs have the same pose towards this issue they’re saying something without backing it up with evidence. How is this any less wrong then refusing to accept this truth/lie?
How exactly are they going to give you “evidence” ? Give you the entire source code showing that all accounts are treated the same? Give you a log of every single drop roll results that every single player has ever had (something that they are unlikely to have) ?
I was in a Successful Battle for Tarir meta and while we are looting the Exalted chests, half way through, many were at the 4th room when the map suddenly CLOSED and kicked all of us into a failed map. Seriously, it was a FULL MAP. Octovine was murdered with lots of time to spare…… And everyone was happy with a successful meta win until the map closed during the looting phase.
Seriously, why is the map still in close mode where there is 80+ players on the map? ANET, you had ONE JOB. ONE JOB.
I want my last Grand Exalted Chest back from that run!!!!!
I spent about 6 hours straight in a single VB map a few days ago. Got the map closing notification multiple times but map never actually closed because at points we got influxes of players (who then left again triggering the map closing notification again).
So they must’ve fixed it in VB at least. My guess is that the AB one is not quite fixed or possibly everybody rushed through the chest run faster than you and then left map.
Debateable:
- the enourmous amount of t5, t6 and t7 materials required for crafting the precursors. I would have preferred a higher quantity of journey objectives, possibly harder ones which require more personal skill. Like meleeing tequatl without getting hit by a wave once.
While I personally would like to do more journey/skill type stuff instead of “drop X amount of mats” at the same time you can’t make it too difficult because you have to take into account things like latency. I mean certain things were impossible to do previously because of latency and how it affects gliding. Now that they’ve changed glider deployment to client side, those things become possible.
I bind both loot and skill 1 to the same mouse button. Works for me
Every account has the exact same chance on RNG.
No offense, but I will never believe that for a second. Ive played a lot for over 3 years in every gamemode and I have never once gotten a single precursor drop from any source. At the same time I have known people who have been able to forge dozens literally dozens some over 100 precursors, one person got a precursor their first week. Meanwhile I am still at 0 because of RNG in over 3 years, so you will excuse me for not believing you.
Do you not understand the concept of RNG? I played for 2+ years and go no precursors, then 2 drops for me within a month of each other, and now more than a year has passed and no more has dropped.
Blackdagger did you take a break for a few weeks or a month right before the season started?
I did and like you I am a pvp vet and am getting matched with brand new players. I may not be legendary, but I am certainly above these team mates I see over and over.
My theory is they implemented the MMR decay. Take a break right before season starts, your rating is reset, and you get put in with the noob teams.
Obviously we’re never going to be able to bring our MMR back up facing any team with noobs as team mates as normally MMR is based off even matches… fail system…
I doubt that’s true, the only spvp I did between this season and last was daily servers for dailies. I got to sapphire with only a single lost and that was when my team of 5 solo qs were matched up against a team of 4 premade (plus one clear scrub) of people I know for a fact were diamonds and legendaries last season. And that game was really close. The majority of my matches have been victories with 500 vs <150, there was even one game where it was 18 vs 500
I use meta builds
This is one of your problems tbh, meta builds are easier to counter because a good opponent will know exactly what you’re running.
(edited by Nate.3927)
I know this dead horse has been beaten through the Earth to my guild mates in Australia, but there is no way I would make more than 70-80g over 4 days in wvw with these same hours i’m putting in.
The fact that you were even making gold in WvW is amazing enough, prior to HoT I was losing gold playing WvW at a rate of at least 1 gold per hour. Now at least I can sell the mats I gather for a little bit of gold.
to hit like that with gun flame your target needs to basically be full glass or close to it and the warrior also needs to be nearly full glass
1v1 that gun flame warrior is a pushover
I agree with the bunker tempest comment though, even an average bunker tempest will take 2 other players to kill usually, a really good bunker tempest can go on for a long time even against 4, though they will die eventually