Guild Wars 2

Shirlias.8104:

totally agree too ( though was what yoy TS meant. You didn’t talk about other passives, which modify skills, cause changing the gameplay by choice is ok, am i right? ).

Also, random sigils should be gone too ( 50% chance on crit, which is another %, so RNG over RNG, to proc X extra damage ). Something like Every X seconds, your next attack deal X extra damage. Flat passive, no RNG, seems fine.

Everything using rng or independant from player’s own active playstyle shouldn’t be tolerated. I didn’t talk about other passives because I didn’t had other in mind and couldn’t find the bother to look them up. but in short:
- Every passive where its effectiveness scales according to one’s own skill is acceptable and should be encouraged.
- Every passive that help raising someone’s skills is toxic and shouldn’t be allowed in any case.

Blue Hare.8612:

@Pepsi.8907

Agree. That is the exact point I was trying to make but didn’t articulate it this well. Ppl mix up a lot of things in this thread, some say that 99% of passives are cancer, others say that passives that require active playstyle are not passives but active passives, then there are static passives that just are there, and then there are passive proc passives that you have no control over. Ppl shouldn’t mix all those thing up and say that they all should be removed.

Anyway, your post has pretty much everything that needs to be said about passives, well written.

Thank you. I felt it was going a bit out of hands when people started mentionning vit/toughness as passive that should be removed. That they tried to go to extremes and ridicule others, or they really thought what they wrote is beyond me, but I felt the need to clarify that passives aren’t a single, homogeneous category of behind-the-scene mechanics contributing to the toxicity.
Passive can actually help build diversity by offering exit door to some classes that would be stuck in a single mindset, otherwise.
Hell, Boons and DoT can be considered passive… but they offer interesting play style and truly reward players based on their skills.

Serious Thought.5394:

Trolling aside (sorry to Mesmer forums, but it was really funny reading doomsday. tbh, most of the typed posts were my buddies lines- i suck at being even half witty) Pepsi- I do agree, the last thing I want buffs on is my autos as a Thief. I want preparedness baseline because our ability costs are based on a 15 value not a 12, I want all of the 3 abilities to be looked at, and I want pistol/shortbow buffs. I’m still glad we got buffs, but it was no in the correct area. Bottom of my heart, if we get any/all of the changes listed and shown so far, I would like to apologize to the soon to be dead Mesmers/Necros/Eles. :C rip. I will enjoy being lethal again of course, but I will know the pain.

Legitimate question though- won’t Mesmers go shatter? That or PU condi again? Also, Guardian runes might be good for that pulsing aegis because block=burn. Just tryin to help. Anywho, inb4 I die because the trolling was too intense Back to BnS/LoL/Smite/many other pvp games because current Thief is far and away inside the trash heap.

As it is, if mesmer go full shatter they are either taking from the inspiration line, which is mandatory given it’s our only source of condi removal, or our clones/phantasm just can’t survive to be able to give proper dps output.
Also, mesmer’s core buffs (shatter) is equal to thieves currently… I did the test when someone talked about it in mesmer’s forums, and even full shatter with berserker amulet, I currently cannot burst anyone down, while sacrificing every single ounce of survivability I had.
Maybe, in the next meta, things will change, however if we have to sacrifice each ounces of survivability in order to dust our shatter, we won,t be viable due to the power creep AND because most of our core-class mechanics are fulling both the offensive and defensive role, which forces us to chose which we need, and losing the other all the while.

As for PU, it’s not remotely viable in a Conquest-style of pvp. Stealth doesn,t give anything and is actually incredibly selfish, and PU has been thoroughly nerfed, making it a joke compared to its former self.
Also, PU condi required mesmer to hide while clones dealt all the damage and, as I said earlier, their survivability is just not on par with everything else, which makes them die near instantly against anything.
Core mesmer is too weak to be viable in the current HoT, while chrono is seeing itself receiving a hefty amount of nerf to the only thing that made it viable (Alacrity and quickness)
Maybe Anet will give us something that will make us viable, but from what we’ve seen, we have doubts and we’re anticipating the crash.

Passive can be either lazy or add depths to a play, it truly depends on how often and strong they are.
It should be a given that passive being as it is, it should never be able to help in any form of significant way, but should help the survival or damage output.
Some passive that requires active play to activate (Slow on interrupt, dodging removing x condis) and/or passive with ICD that others can keep track of without affecting the other player in a major way (I.E: rev’s taunt) can add depth and difficulty to a game, because it’s nothing that makes the player feel like no matter what he does he’s being countered by the I.A, while requiring mental awareness of the other classes to be able to properly interpret and circumvent.
It goes without saying that, in gw2, passive are part of the game: Sigils, runes, amulets and traits gives passive and I think it is acceptable since it doesn,t make the player feel like he’s competing against the computer or the build itself and not the other player.

Where it becomes boring and unhealthy is when passive is used in a way to support the player using them like a clutch, elevating his skill play to a level he wouldn’t be able to be without said passives, that’s when it’s becoming too much.
Skill level and difference in plays are being nibbled at by computer’s procs and behind-the-scene mechanics that are just so numerous that no one can keep track off them while helping tremendously in dealing with adversary without requiring any amount of active playstyle. It gives a feeling of superiority to players who doesn,t necessarily deserves it, while making players who can actively work at their skill level feel like no matter the effort, they just can’t compare or receive an even reward simply because their build doesn’t provide an equal clutch.

The difference between a passive offered in the form of toughness/vitality is that it needs active playstyle to be sustained and requires the player to actively reacts in order to benefit properly from what the builds provide, whereas passive such as the taunt doesn’t requires anything beside input from the enemy to activate itself and works in a way completely opposite of what is healthy. Instead of helping the player, yet requiring him to actively support what he was provided with (a given/taken sort of “relationship”) it works completely on its own, regardless of the player’s own skill level and input, offering 100% of what is possible and triggering against the enemy regardless of how well the player with the passive actively plays, and that is just toxic when you want to give people the impression they can actively progress through the game.

Quadox.7834:

alicatrawz.9567:

i highly doubt it.

I main a thief, but alt on a mesmer.

the thing i find most comforting is that the amount of bad thieves that will come out of this is going to be too darn high and will be a nice, easy… obvious kill.

in theory, we should have nothing to worry about. at all.

Good thieves however…

Even a Thief will have to worry about other thieves, mesmers can still deal mega damage and like i said on another post.

the mes+thief pain train is gonna be a thing again.

And that makes me happy.

A thief that loses to a shatter mesmer is terrible. Period. Sorry.

Thief’s defense is just capable of neutralizing half of our damage output simply because we either require a target or it makes our clones stand as still as frozen statue, while his stealth outlast ours.
I’m not saying we will be necessarily fodder, but claiming that thief dying to shatter is terrible while they are our natural counter… well I can’t agree.

A removed celestial is a perfect celestial.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Also stop with the “mesmers you had your time”. I play a mesmer (not my main but still) and despised the chronobunker build. I don’t know any mesmer main who enjoyed playing chronobunker. The ones that did just go with the FotM river. They will play whatever is OP this month.

You, I like you

Scepter with 2 skills, because OP, LOL, I could see that.
I see your build potential, but I have a few questions:
Why mirror image instead of, say, blink?
[Scratch that, just realized you had rune of torment, which must make torment a bit more impactful x)]
That’s my only questions without having tested the build, which I’ll give a try. You could also have gone with ineptitude, makes a fairly decent pump of confusion with chaos armor.

I’ll have to try.

However, even if it’s kinda viable, even right now, mesmer will never be as proficient as a reaper when dealing with conditions. It’s just that much more specialized in applying them and shutting down boons. So even if condi shatter makes an appearance, reaper may very well still be more profitable to a team and mesmer only be a subpar version of the class itself. Hence > not meta and not desirable compared to other class who can do the same thing but better or faster.

Shirlias.8104:

Not only whining on thieves and asking for nerfs, but whining on “staff” thieves.

Enough!

Oh stop it, he did bring a good point, if bunker gets nerfed, thief’s damage is much stronger.
Thief isn’t lacking because his class itself lacks something, but rather because everything around it neutralized its potential. That doesn,t makes it O-K, but it brings to light that thief is UP simply because everything else is OP…
And I didn,t see straight out whine out there, only as objective as possible criticism by taking into account the current meta as a whole…

OP, as for mesmer I,d say that you pointed out the current problem, however Alacrity and quickness rez definitely needed the nerf. As it is, it was too present and too rewarding for the hardship it presented to have access to them, so nerfing them is a valid solution. But you are right in saying that core mesmer is thoroughly subpar and nerfing chrono won’t make people pick core class for being similar. I can see viable maybe builds presenting themselves, but it will all depend on how Anet decide to tweak mesmer.
As is, I feel they want to push scepter through, while not a bad idea as it is definitely the black sheep of our weapons, pushing scepter means reworking the whole mecanics of the weapon and guiding mesmer toward condition-based damage, which can’t even come close to the effectiveness of what reaper can actually output.
If scepter see itself with slow added, I could see an interesting playout focused on lockdown opponent through slow and CC with maybe Scepter/Shield or pistol in the play, but again, despite the much needed nerf to Alacrity and Quickness, I don,t know where Anet leads us.

King xiuras.3615:

The era of mesmers is gone. The disciples of Helseth will despair. The alacrity and the quickness class is gone. It’s time to rise the other classes! #Mesmerstimeisover #jointhewarriorclub #killthiefwithconditionsfromnecro #necroisthenewbunkermetamesmer

Well we had a good time since July I guess… out of three years we almost had three months of near-meta and three of definite-meta… Not like we’re not used at being decent/trash-tier I wager…

And OP, I think gs auto is the least of our problems… Our clones/phantasms survivability is laughable, mender’s purity is still bugged, Mirror blade still misses his last bounce and our core class is as weak as current thief while not even receiving buff equal to thief.
Anet seems to try to push scepter, a condi weapon, which would need tremendous rework to make it even close to viable, while not taking into account that mesmer will never come close to the effectiveness of reaper in term of conditions…
Most of our skills (shatter most of all) serve both an offensive and defensive purpose at the sime time, contradicting each other and forcing us to chose between saving our hide or killing the guy.
We lack sustain damage and despite having one of the strongest burst, we currently can’t even down current bunker even with zerker equipped.

Oh and chaos armor definitely needed its blind remove, because it was way too strong…

SlayerSixx.5763:

Shadowflare.2759:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Because unless you’re a burn guardian using all of your burst at once, you’ll do a single tick of damage before its removed. Coupled with the fact that eles have a bigger pool to work this in terms of maintaining their health before the effect deactivates, you’ve got what is essentially a buff. Imagine those eles being able to repeatedly keep themselves over 90% (considering their low health pool, that meant they’d have to constantly keep themselves from losing more than 2k HP), now they have more room to breathe with 75%. Unless you were running rabid, you have no excuse as to why you couldn’t pump out 2k damage with a single auto chain.

…What condi builds only apply a single condition at once? Seriously do people not read opening posts?

A simple example would be boon corruption, or necro condi transfer. As long as they cover their important conditions with trash ones from autos/passive traits or whatever, they can keep those condis on you.

It seems people just see the larger amount of health threshold the new DS has, and take that as a buff without considering how powerful of an effect it will actually have. At best, this new DS is about equal in easiness to break.

It cleanses one condition per second. The only condition spec that can deal with this is necro with corrupts because even base condi application from necro won’t be enough to be able to deal a consistent amount of damage. At the same time, necro can’t keep up with a fleeing ele. Say, for the sake of this argument, the ele takes ether renewal. With the amount that it heals for + all of condi removal, they’ll essentially reset your condi bombs every 18 seconds without fail while still constantly shaving off conditions in between. An 18 second window to down an ele as what is probably their most efficient counter. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not arguing that ele will still be strong after this patch (as many more experienced in the class have illustrated), but, for all intents and purposes, this is a buff to DS. At least good eles won’t have to worry about conditions as much in the coming meta.

It’s not like DS is their ONLY meant of cleaning condis, it’s a clean/sec on top of everything else they can have and a passive cleanse at that… yes it may seem less powerful than the original DS, but the treshold leaves much better room for mistake while keeping the skill itself passive, if ele just decide (for sake of argument) to go back to D/D triple cantrip with Ether renewal and mercrenary/sage amulet, you still have access to incredible cleanse, and I’d even wager that you are even more immune then before because you’re not just preventing condis application, you are literally removing them while having a much lower treshold for activation. Ele excels in rapid healing that keeps them at around 50-80 percent life if their rotation is done properly.
Depending on their weapon they either have a very tolerable sustain healing or minor burst and both can keep them over this treshold, despite condis, which you can still slot active skills to remove them.

I’m neither saying it’s a nerf or a buff because it’s impossible to tell at this point, but it’s a much more generous change than many others that will happen… that I’m sure.
Or would you rather have a 5% increase speed on a GM trait? I’d take your DS anytime and switch Malicious Sorcery to you, for free!

Mesmer don’t have it worst than ele, but people, get off your QQ train, it may be a nerf, but it’s not demolishing your class, it will certainly not be THE trait responsible for removing Ele from meta if it ever happens. I’d wager that cele removal will have a much more important impact on your gameplay than whatever change happened to DS, for better or worse.

Curunen.8729:

Obindo.6802:

1200 condition damage
900 expertise
900 toughness

Awesome, no please this would be cancerous xD

If they place limitations on the choice then it can work.

For example, if the total points pool = 3200:

1. Pick your primary stat at a range between 1050 and 1200 points (have a slider so it can be anywhere in between.

2. Secondary stat choices are available depending on the primary choice and the remaining number of points, with number caps. The secondary stat has a maximum value of 1050, only if the primary stat has also been chosen at 1050. If the primary stat choice is above 1050, the secondary stat lies between 1050 and 900 points. So as one slider goes up, the other goes down.

3. The remaining 1100 points must be split between 2 further stats, but they can be chosen in any range between 550/550 and 900/200.

So the results would look like this:
Primary – 1200 -> 1050
Secondary – 900 -> 1050
Tertiary – 550/550 -> 900/200

All amulets would then be normalised to a fixed maximum number of points. It could be extended to 5 or more stat possibilities, but would make it more complicated.

Stat Exclusions:
Simple “greyed out” selection depending on stat choices and values. Would of course require testing to see which combinations would be overpowered (ie Dire).

For example, if the Primary stat is Condition Damage, the Secondary stat cannot be Expertise. If a Tertiary stat is Expertise, it is capped at 550 points.

If the Primary Stat is Condition Damage and the Secondary Stat is either Toughness or Vitality, the Tertiary stat cannot have Vitality/Toughness. If the tertiary stat is expertise, it is capped at 550 points.

And so on…

So you could do things like:
1150 Power
950 Toughness
800 Precision
300 Ferocity

Don’t even give us amulets, just make so that people can allocate point as they like following this, jeez.
You want to allow build diversity? then let people choose whatever stats combination they want to make under certain, strict and well-defined guidelines.

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Not only Revs, Eles and Guardians too rely almost exclusively on boons as defense.

At the very least Ele has a bunch of Condi Cleanses and Guardians have some as well.
Revenant has a laughable amount of condition cleansing.

Not sure which condition clear you are referring to for elementalist when Healing Rain cast time is one second and an half for a whooping 2 condition cleansed (if traited) every 3 seconds for 6 seconds, with no easily accessible condi clears other than this (unless ice field is blasted, if traited, and projectile finishers on water, if traited).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Disruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire

Add to that Diamond Skin and compare to:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purifying_Essence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eluding_Nullification
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Channel
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Stone (Cleanses AFTER Healing)

Don’t even come here and tell me Elementalist lacks Condition clears.

Curunen.8729:

Pepsi.8907:

Ah yeah seen like that! But I removed DE a long time ago so I feel like it will be easier to adjust on that part.
Have you tried with chrono line with Ireversion and CPhantasma
You really get more clones then you actually need if you manage well, but playing without energy sigil on at least one weapon will need adjustment, that’s for sure

I use IReversions and Cp pretty much all the time for condi shatter, although I also used this with DE and double Energy sigils for high illusion generation. I enjoyed playing this fast paced burst style – for example could summon say an iwarlock, blink dodge shatter for 2 illusion shatter, immediately have an IR clone back and another iWarlock so could phase retreat and forward dodge into full shatter, swap weapon to sword/torch and have that extra endurance which was just spent in generating the clones.

Without DE/Energy, it is much slower paced which is less fun for me, although I am thoroughly enjoying Mirror Images to replace that instant burst, and it works better with F5 setup too.

Yeah you,re right, DE/Energy on top of everything else does provide a faster pace which is vital for mesmer to survive because of his lack of sustained damage.

babazhook.6805:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

@Azure
“Why do two unblockable strikes make mesmer thief food?”

We’re already thief food. The basi venom just seals the deal. Attack us when we’re hurting (A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) and kill us.

The reality though, is that thief, with its high damage, high mobility, and kitten tons of evades, already eats us alive on anything that isn’t the bunker spec.
You have 3 dodges, roll for initiative, the rolling heal (which is being buffed if I recall correctly), and vault/sword also evades.

You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now. And it’s also being made so that if I want to take you from 100-0, you’ll stop at 25% and evade everything I do for 2 seconds.

I’m going to give credit where credit is due.

Yes, Thieves eat non bunker mesmers.

That being said:

“You guys have more invulnerability than mesmer does now”

No.

“(A.K.A. When we’re using shield, the only actual defense skill we have now other than distortion & sword 2) "

Don’t do this. Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do. I know better than that, at least.

Level with me here. I’m tired of the silly balance see-saw, and I know that if I give in and go full jerkass with whatever inversion of power that is coming with the balance patch, Its only going to be six months long, so I’d rather things be settled out of the gate.

I will grant:

• There are a lot of dodges

• Non bunker mes is (probably) thief food.

We still have bunkerish amulets though. they just are not full bunker and require more active play instead of forcing slow death by attrition.

I’m looking for mechanical disadvantages, glaring imbalances that we can have ironed out promptly, from people who play the class and can manage winning with a playstyle that is a far cry from [insert every block possible here and wait out opponents hp bar].

I’ve lost to zerker shatter mesmers as a thief before; whether that makes me bad or them good idk, but I’m looking for solid arguing ground here, since the majority of people that are angry with thieves getting looked at after a 6 month period of uselessness (and those that believed we deserved it) played or main mesmer.

" Don’t downplay distortion and sword 2 to make it seem like mesmers have less defense than they do."

Literally every thief I’ve ever fought, has capitalized on sword 2 ending.
Sword 2 sucks, and it appears to have this after cast delay that prevents me from dodging immediately after it. So I usually end up ending it slightly early. Although, maybe that’s changed, or maybe I’m an idiot.

Distortion is for a grand total of 1 second.

So, assuming I have 2 dodges up (Unlikely, I probably used 1 offensively, and it’s likely not fully recharged yet) I have about 2 1/2 seconds of invuln at my disposal. + about half a second? of evasion. Lets call it a whole second for the sake of argument.

So 3 1/2 seconds of actually meaningful defense, while I wait for my 11 second cooldown. (Remember, energy sigil is being nerfed)

So, thief -> 3 dodges = 1 1/2 seconds of evasion (Based off of what I said for mesmer)
Withdraw = 1/2 (Prob a bit longer) second of evasion
Roll for Initiative (Really strong when running staff, imho) = 1/2 second of evasion (Again, probably longer. But I’ll use the dodge estimate)
And you can spam 3 vaults on full initiative = 1 1/2 seconds of evasion. As well as damage

Comboing that properly, you should actually easily be able to get 6-7 vaults across that time.

But, lets go with minimum estimates, assuming you don’t know how to play your class.

1 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 4 seconds of evasion.

+ 2 seconds when you hit 25% health (post patch)

= 6 seconds of evasion, with minimum estimations, and using staff’s instead of D/D or S/D.

Literally twice mine. And you don’t have to wait 11 seconds for your next burst. Vault IS your burst.

This is not an even fight.
Shatter mesmer’s entire thing is about bursting and getting the kitten out of there. But you can’t run from a thief. Thief has too many gap closers.

So literally, to kill a thief.
I have to land my burst in between the very short evasion frames.

Or get a surprise 100-0.

All of which is even harder if someone’s running condi thief. Which is literally the bane of my existence.

Is it OP? Ofc not. Necro is better for condi.

But can anyone think of another spec for mesmer that even challenges condi thief?
Again, if I don’t 100-0 condi thief by surprise, it’ll annihilate me.

Too much poison & evades. Evades which also apply more bleeding, torment, and cripple…

If you lost to a mesmer, it doesn’t mean you’re a scrub. It means that mesmer managed to either 100-0 you, or miraculously survive to land a second burst.

Unless you died to sword autos. In which case, yeah, kind of a nub.

Hold on. Distortion is good for only one second ? Is it not 1 second per clone shattered?

Gain distortion and destroy all your clones and phantasms, gaining additional distortion for each one shattered.
So it is 1 sec per clone shattered, but most mesmer (me included) won’t take the time to make three clones before using it since it’s pretty much our HOLY-kitten-CRAP-kitten emergency button.
When stab wasn’t as provided as it was, I even valued Cry of Frustration before distortion just in case of, if I happened to meet a stealthed thief along the way.

DanielHarvey.7320:

Pepsi.8907:

Fay.2357:

DanielHarvey.7320:

TL; DR git gud.

Which is clearly why condie shatter has been a top tier pick for a long time now. All we need to do is git gud.

Well he did give sensible advices that any mesmer worth it’s part should know :/
But yeah Fay, why don’t you just git gud! Every build can be meta if u gud enuf

That’s literally true, and even if I am not good enough it’s fun to have something to play for.

Not sure if you were replying on the sensible advices (which they were) or the fact that I lolled a bit on the last part, but I’ll assume you were talking about my “git gud” thing:
I said it as sarcasm since meta isn’t something any build can become because people are skilled at it.
On equal skill play a meta build vs non-meta will always result being in favor of the meta since it is supposed to be the most optimal choice for players, hence its smooth rough edges and force player to concentrate on a lesser amount of flaws in their class and build compare to someone who doesn’t play meta.

I’m not saying any non-meta is non viable and shouldn’t exist, but when two players of relatively equal skills will face out, the one playing meta will always have the upper hand because his build helps him play and he has less to focus on compared to someone who plays non-meta who has rough edges to smooth over with his own skills on top of everything else the meta player does.
So to give the same reward and being as efficient, a non-meta player may have to give more effort to achieve the same result simply because his build doesn,t support him the way meta does since the latter use the current balance as a lever to use the most efficient traits, skills and weapons available to him in a synergy as perfect as possible given the circumstances.

Silverkey.2078:

The thing with condi is that the condi cleanse are adjusting to condi necro/condi rev level. Condi mesmer has no way to keep up to that level. And honestly, I’d rather not, because this is insane. Had a few games yesterday vs condi teams. I had bunker mesmer, which means:

• condi clear on shatter
• 5 AOE condi clear on heal
• AOE condi clear on null field
• resistance on glamour (null field + time warp + feedback on rez)
• F5 resistance

with me a soldier rune DS tempest. And yet, absolutely no way to survive the condi bombs…. and this chill….

The whole condi concept has to be redone.

Exactly my thought! Not in those terms, but we just can’t compare with other condi builds, which makes us sub par on that term

Ah yeah seen like that! But I removed DE a long time ago so I feel like it will be easier to adjust on that part.
Have you tried with chrono line with Ireversion and CPhantasma
You really get more clones then you actually need if you manage well, but playing without energy sigil on at least one weapon will need adjustment, that’s for sure

They did review: with current power creep our phantasm has now 5% to land a hit before dying.
/Balance

On a more serious note, I’d like if they could give us PImages baseline
or at least the health part (for what it’s worth), removing PImage altogether while pushing retaliation on Pphantasms on top of everything else… would make it feel more worthwhile.
While giving us something along the line of compounding power but with healing/vit…

I’m pulling at straws here, but by giving us phantasm’s health baseline and pushing the retal on Phantasms, it would give us the change of having another adept trait a bit more selfish than either giving us more speed rez (which, with the coming nerf to chronobunker and removal of rune of mercy, is completely pointless since there’s no way we can survive long enough to have the role of raising allies like we did under focus) or either healing allies when finishing mantra and add something similar to CPower but with vit/healing would benefit us more while not removing all team related traits from the line itself.

I mean, I’m far from a theory crafter myself.
I like doing builds, yet I lack general foresight to properly synergize my things and create something viable, so it may just be my lack of talent and expertise in the field that prevent me from understanding but:
Why do I start seeing theory craft when:
- We don’t even know the extent of the changes;
- The patch hasn’t even rolled in, so we can’t truly test anything?

I know that we can assume certain things, such as bunker mesmer going to kitten and Anet pushing scepter through, but that doesn’t mean that condi will be viable either?
A 5% increase on scepter speed as a preview hardly gives me faith in condi build becoming something… We have no true way of sustaining condis decently, our scepter would need a MASSIVE rework and our traits are just meh, especially with the incoming nerf to Chaos Armor. MtD is still as trash as it was and we have even less access to blind than before.
And as it is, we saw nothing in the direction of Shatter buff either, our clones dies just as fast.
So, genuinely asking, how can you people start theory crafting things? Is it because you saw something I missed or you just can’t help doing something to calm your nerves and mind before balance roll since you don’t know what to expect and we just have our clearly awesome history with Anet to think about?

Fay.2357:

DanielHarvey.7320:

TL; DR git gud.

Which is clearly why condie shatter has been a top tier pick for a long time now. All we need to do is git gud.

Well he did give sensible advices that any mesmer worth it’s part should know :/
But yeah Fay, why don’t you just git gud! Every build can be meta if u gud enuf

Curunen.8729:

Nice to see such feedback from other class players.

Extra Mirror Blade bounce would be a good start to have back.

I know right! I still don’t get why they nerfed it in the first place.
If I remember right, it was during the mantra lockdown meta, where mantra loaded into background and Anet took thousands of detour, nerfing everything in its path, without tackling the real problem.
And of course, when they finally jumped at mantras, removing the background recharge, there’s no way for them to give back our previous Mblade…
Feels like they refuse to admit their mistake in the first place, which is fine and all if they go at balance carefully, but they don’t and it leads to true horrors that we have to deal with for weeks or even months at a time because they are also slower than snails.

Riz.8925:

Lol. You guys are such cry-babies. According to your logic, its okay that you guys can live through 3v1 indefinitely. And now that you are slightly being nerfed you cry hard…bahahahahaha. Come. Be a thief and see what its like to have every class counter you lol.

No need, you walked right in the perfect for that. Even thief had longer meta playtime than us, and they usually are our hard counter on every level. Keep trying, you’ll get there

That’s why keeping track of your boons and not just face rolling your way through is important… He either stripped or corrupted your stab, and why the hell would you fear someone with stab if it’s going to fail?

Crinn.7864:

This isn’t power creep. this is elite specs getting rebalanced. You could argue elite specs are too strong but that’s again not power creep.

Power creep would be like if they pulled a WoW and increased gear, level and base stats whenever they release a update.

From what we’ve seen they barely touched Elite’s spec beside nerfing a couple of things such as Alacrity, etc. However, they clearly are buffing other, more offensive, aspects

Now I’m not whining about any of these changes, somes are well deserved and other pathetic, but despite all the nerfs that happens, you can clearly see Anet is aiming to give us a meta that will be way more burstier than what we’ve seen, by either nerfing defensive abilities or buffed offensive abilities that they felt were underwhelming
removing stats from trait line and distributing it over the Amulets was a power creep..
Anet is just tackling their problem by increasing whatever’s too weak while slightly bringing down what’s too strong.
We saw it happens countless of times.

Teams full of thieves stealthing everyone and anyone so that the first to run out of stealth dies at the end of second team…
Just you wait!

Hack/bot = perma ban in my book
If you can’t be bothered to play the game without using 3rd app party helping your deficient mind, Anet shouldn’t have to bother itself by tracking the number of warning you deserve… insta ban at first notice.

- In addition, I want a forfeit button if you see that a match is lost in advance… No reason I waste any kind of minutes trying to play a game I have no chance at winning.

- Yes, people have been whining about it

- Give us template to save and quickly access builds

- Give us SOMETHING ANYTHING to do in HoTM instead of afking on the internets and missing our queue (missed more queue like that than roaming PvE or trolling in hotjoin (even with the alert sound))

- Anet please, make us feel like you care about the community, not just use it for whatever data we can’t even ask for and changing the game without asking anyone anything.
I know people aren’t reliable when giving reviews, but opening a sticky in each profession for people to say what they,d like their profession to look like, or what they’d like to change would at least give the chance to feel like they’re being heard…

I don’t remember energy sigil being at the CORE of mesmer’s build… it was important, especially when DE was mandatory, but with Chrono line? It’s clearly not as necessary anymore.
If anything, it will make us less spammy with our little dodge. I’m much more afraid of the power creep all around and the neverending problem of having our core class mechanic fulfilling both offensive and defensive roles and contradicting each other rather than a much needed nerf on a sigil.

alchemyst.2165:

chews popcorn and watches as mesmers cry op because 1 (underpowered) skill became unblockable

Lordrosicky.5813:

Pepsi.8907:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Firebird.8324:

Well, warriors got a few incredibly minor buffs, literally nothing to gawk at, or even assume is OP. I mean, tempest diamond skin arguably better, awesome buff to reaper, CRAZY buff to thief, and warriors get what, a few rifle enhancements? Oh and the “defensive” (LOL) buffs something like +20 health per second added on to the one heal any warrior will ever take.

Arenanet, if you really WANT to remove warrior from PVP just remove it like an amulet, enough of this behind the scenes stuff where you pretend to be balancing and actually end up making people like warriors not only actively leave the game, but convince their friends to as well.

Cry more. Anet know what they are doing. They have tested these changes. You haven’t. Therefore you know nothing

Because Anet’s previous balance changes proved that they were capable and had near flawless balance with very few mistakes that couldn’t, absolutely, be seen before launch.
I mean who could have known about burning scaling so horribly, 100nade being bugged, Alacrity’s 66% being way too strong…
They definitely managed to give result earning people’s trust in their capabilities as a dev team…

Everyone makes mistakes. Its hard to get it 100% right. But for every QQ about something that turned out to be OP there is 100x the QQ about things that didn’t turn out to be OP.

And I’m still waiting for being capable of doing something else than standing AFK in HoTM, I’m still waiting for gamemode to see their balance completely separated and I’m still waiting to have build templates.
They also made the game full of passive, on procs and what not, slowly removing all kind of skills from the game, the current meta is a joke and is worth the first balance of a game, not one who’s three years old.
HoT was halfway done, the Elite are clearly too OP despite what they claimed.
In fact, every single thing Anet promised at head start, they managed to do exactly the opposite.
The game is good and has incredible potential, but it seems like they are steadily making it worst and it pains me.
I never had this little fun in the game apart from this year… in three years it never made me cringed as much as it did now, so excuse me if I’d like to not throw all of my eggs in one basket and believe foolishly Anet’s empty promises of balance and changes when they’ve shown repetitively to dismiss their claims at the drop of a hat.

I’d wait to see before claiming x or x class are going to be out of the game.
Ele will see nice changes which may give a new face on fresh air build, added that DS rework may finally make ele capable of getting out of water line and that bunker meta is being ripped apart, I’m curious to see how it’ll go.
As for mesmer, if they rework scepter correctly, we could see condi emerging from that… I don’t know yet, I try to stay hopeful. Alacrity will still be effective, just less so.
Amulets clearly needed to go, especially celestial… it was cancer, so was durability and energy needed that nerf…

TheLastNobody.8319:

Pepsi.8907:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Or you could make alaclarity a boon exclusive to mesmers and then increase it to 50%. Just a thought

It’s already exclusive to mesmer in that they are the only one who can apply it.
And 50% woah, let’s not take the prudent, rational route with Anet, here. They don’t do rational and careful, they use big, bold, hammer to shatter glass.

True but it’s not a boon, it’s a special effect, meaning it can’t be corrupted, stripped, or stolen. Making it a boon would give it these weaknesses as well as buff it by opening it up to boon duration increases.

Yeah I know. I would have liked the idea of keeping it as is, or reducing to 50% but applying it as a boon that can be stripped.
Now well… it’s fine since we can’t get it removed (or wait it’ll be a plot twist in Anet’s balance patch 33% AND a boon!)

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Funny how apparently when it’s about YOUR playtime it is relevant, but when it’s other players it doesn’t say anything.

I’ll simply ignore you because you’ve shown that you’re just trolling.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Firebird.8324:

Well, warriors got a few incredibly minor buffs, literally nothing to gawk at, or even assume is OP. I mean, tempest diamond skin arguably better, awesome buff to reaper, CRAZY buff to thief, and warriors get what, a few rifle enhancements? Oh and the “defensive” (LOL) buffs something like +20 health per second added on to the one heal any warrior will ever take.

Arenanet, if you really WANT to remove warrior from PVP just remove it like an amulet, enough of this behind the scenes stuff where you pretend to be balancing and actually end up making people like warriors not only actively leave the game, but convince their friends to as well.

Cry more. Anet know what they are doing. They have tested these changes. You haven’t. Therefore you know nothing

Because Anet’s previous balance changes proved that they were capable and had near flawless balance with very few mistakes that couldn’t, absolutely, be seen before launch.
I mean who could have known about burning scaling so horribly, 100nade being bugged, Alacrity’s 66% being way too strong…
They definitely managed to give result earning people’s trust in their capabilities as a dev team…

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Pepsi.8907:

So all of this should justify an increase in HPool? Please, I have 1.5k hours on my ele, half of them from pvp, I know the drill…

I have 2.5k hours on my ele, ALL in PVP. What’s your point? none.

Of course, you having more hours automatically makes you more knowledgeable and makes you capable of dismissing my point… sure.
I have 3k hours on my mesmer ALL in PvP, and I say that their Hpool is quite fine where it stand, which void any and all kind of arguments you could bring against that statement unless you have more hours than me on mesmer in pvp, since it correlates directly to one’s own knowledge of the class.
What’s your point again for ele’s need to have it’s health increased?

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Pepsi.8907:

Ele just got 20 skills to rotate around with attunment recharge being 10CD without overload, on top of utility skills.

Ah, this false argument again. Yes eles have 20 weapon skills. But they are punished 3fold for that, which MORE THAN MAKES UP FOR IT.

1. Every ele skills is weaker than other classes counterparts because eles have more skills.
2. Every ele skill has a longer cooldown than other classes counterparts because eles have more skills.
3. Unlike other classes Eles are locked to a single range, they cannot switch ranges in combat.

So all of this should justify an increase in HPool? Please, I have 1.5k hours on my ele, half of them from pvp, I know the drill…
It’s ridiculously easy to bring ourselves back to the required treshold for DS to pop again, unless you get focused, which, in any normal game, would result in your death.
And I can’t remember being locked out of ANY attunment unless I messed up my rotation or overloaded the wrong attunment at the wrong time.
As for the longer CDs:

Mesmer
GS: 8,12,20,30
Staff: 10, 18, 35, 35
Scepter: 10, 12
Sword: 12, 12, 15, 20
Focus: 25, 25
Pistol: 20, 25
Shield: 30,40

Guardian
GS: 10,. 15, 20, 30
Hammer: 5, 15, 25, 40
Staff: 3, 15, 20, 40
LBow: 4, 10, 15, 45

Ele:
Fire
Staff: 6, 10 ,20, 30
Dagger: 5, 15, 15 ,45
Scepter: 6, 20
Focus, 20, 40
Warhorn, 30, 30

Air:
Staff: 10, 30, 30, 40
Dagger: 10, 25, 40, 40
Scepter: 5, 10
Focus: 30, 50
Warhorn: 25, 25

etc, etc… There may be that obsidian flesh with 50CD, but then again, what would you expect from a skill that gives you invulnerability for 4seconds… On average it is slightly higher, nothing too worrisome or even close to the 3 fold mentionned…
Wealer? I remember fire grab hitting for 5k and mighty burning ticking off like mad off of people.
Being capable of stacking 25 might alone made up for that plenty, and Fresh air had one of the highest burst in the whole game if I remember right (hard to land however, I’ll grant that.) So weakest skills… still remained to be seen…
Right now they are pushed in a bunker, sustain build, which may explain why the sudden weakening of skills, but what would you expect with celestial? The only thing that made you have higher damage was that you could stand 25might permanently in a fight.

Now it’s more of a healing rotation which makes you capable of very high sustain despite the low health pool. Moreover, yes, Ele is stucked at a single range, but has a wide array of skills available to either close the gap needed or fight in close range while being capable of kiting its survival.

So tell me again how they are punished three fold by their myriad of skills and how it justify an increase in their Hpool?

style.6173:

I’m definitely really hoping that bunker mesmer does in fact die. It is a build that takes minimal skill to play and allowed many people to cheese season 1 of the league.

That said, we don’t know all the changes, so everyone complaining about one class being OP or another being UP is premature.

Even mesmer community is hoping that chronobunker dies, it’s clearly not why we signed up as main mesmers… and it deserves to go.
But I’d like to be reassured that we’ll be given an alternative other than dropping off of meta in previous warrior/thief position, and that, from what I’ve seen, is not certain at all

TheLastNobody.8319:

Or you could make alaclarity a boon exclusive to mesmers and then increase it to 50%. Just a thought

It’s already exclusive to mesmer in that they are the only one who can apply it.
And 50% woah, let’s not take the prudent, rational route with Anet, here. They don’t do rational and careful, they use big, bold, hammer to shatter glass.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Arenanet design philosophy:

Lets take this passive trait. AND MAKE IT EVEN MORE PASSIVE.

Brilliant.

Well it could have been worst, they could have add
“Condition applied on you see their duration decreased by 3% per conditions” or something…

brannigan.9831:

Don’t care really. Thats generally my perferred method of balancing slaughtering an op class/build and driving off the FOTM trash for a development cycle or so and let some other classes/builds see the light of day. Its almost impossible to change classes/builds from OP to just run of the mills strong in one iteration. Smash away i say. Mesmer players are no more special then anyone else. Lots of classes/builds have been “unplayable” for extremely long periods of time.

Thank god you’re not a dev, I wouldn’t want to be part of your game, that,s for sure.
And Mesmer has been one of these classes who was absolutely not competitive and undesired for a very long time, or have you forgotten that?

OP: I tend to lean toward Helseth’s opinion, but I still have this teeny teeny sliver of faith that Anet are reserving a good surprise for us.

I also agree…

Ele just got 20 skills to rotate around with attunment recharge being 10CD without overload, on top of utility skills.
In many weapons he got 2 skills other than his healing that can heal and cure condis (and that’s not withstanding dodging in attunment when traited, or overload heal)
His earth his often topped with high defense because of various traits and especially focus (reflect/clerar condis and invuln.)
He now got overload water which can heal, his shout which can clear condis if equipped with proper rune. He also had the triple cantrip build which was incredibly defensive and could clear condis faster than reapplied and Diamond skin will not add onto the mix (1 clear condi/sec before 75% treshold is something I’d LOVE to have on my mesmer). He has incredible mobility with easy-to-apply swiftness, teleport and various other skills (burning retreat, burning speed, windborn speed, ride the lightning, updraft) His new elite can save him from life-threatening situation and he got so many auras he’s basically a flashlight in the dark. His condi survival is already high enough as it is, without adding more health to the mixed.
He can heal from many things and got the tools to get away from almost anything beside very stubborn thieves.
Tell me again how he needs more health than mesmers, or anything else for that matter?

It is entirely up to you to play how you want, but having other means of defenses would have certainly saved your life in spite of everything.
I am not mad, I’m as cool as a cucumber in fact, but you were very high on your horses when you came here, so of course everyone got defensive, me included. You seems to have calmed down at the very least.

Seeing as I am someone who value efficiency over everything, yes I am playing the boring, uneventful, facestomp meta. Bouhou to me I guess. Am I Elite? Maybe, maybe not. I’m certainly not e-sport material, but I know my class and the others well enough to know that MImage is bad.
I’m all for difference in opinions, however I give what I receive. Arrogance and angry retorts will be met with arrogance and angry retorts.
I may not have been fully respectful, and I certainly will not apologize, but keep in mind that you are not the victime or the holy saint who did nothing wrong.
If you have many people going at you in the same manner it may be well to review one’s own psyche and attitude before going at everyone.

Oh, there’s still people brave enough to keep playing?

Firebird.8324:

Nick.7621:

Just wait until they reveal evrything. The things I didn’t agree with were the heal changes. Buffing Healing Signet and Adrenal Health forces us to use the two, therefore forces us into a specific traitline already. The To The Limit heal buff was OK, but I would rather a reduced CD on it with the current base heal.

I would like to see a buff on Headbutt by increasing the range or making it unblockable. GS skills being revamped since they are gimmicky. Some sort of boon strip as well since everything has perma protection.

In all likelihood they revealed everything that was big, controversial, and game changing about the warrior changes. They are looking for feedback, and the obvious feedback is IT IS NOT ENOUGH.

Mesmer big scepter rework: GM traits goes from 15 to 20%
Huge LOL

Ele and thief have been builds and have defenses to get around their low healthpool.
A thief with all its stealth and dodge, or an ele with its incredible sustain and healing running with warrior’s HPool? No. Thank.You.
And what about guardian?
Guardian got the exact same HP as thief and ele, do they need a higher one?
Do you think ranger, rev,. engineer, mesmer need higher health pool with all their skills and passive?

Why? What would normalizing bring? How would it affect other classes? Would you all made it cap at warrior’s health, or would you lower everything to something?
If you lower the health, how will it affect condis/power creep
If you increase the health, how will it affect condis/power creep…

This form of health has been in game since launch, I currently do not see the problem with it, and I’m fairly certain it’s quite far in term of priority compared to many other things (CC, Boons, unkillable tempest and chrono, etc.)
Moreover, Ele still gets their incredible healing capability and passive defense (even if Diamond skin got reworked, but it’s still good (1 condi/sekittenil 75% health (which you can easily get back to))
Ele got low health, but incredible assets in term of healing and sustain, so based on that alone I fail the see how relevant it would be…
They are removing celestial, too, but that’s just good and will make Ele WAY less forgiving to play with.
All in all, I don’t think ele’s changes justifies a normalization of the health pool across the game.

Scoreboard is actually useful if a tie happens between the teams…
But yeah it’s incredibly flawed and reward way too much agressive play, which leads to horror such as multi-capping or fighting off points.

Maybe add something like the first one who start the cap gets the point and that if you’re outside of x radius of the cap, you get no point for killing someone.
Beasts should lead to less points reward, etc.

Yes please! There’s a full zone with water that is unusable because there’s no more water map
I also noticed it has been recently re-opened, couldn’t you transformed this in arena-like zone fractured in multiple area so that people can duel each other while waiting for queue?
Because, seriously, we deserve something to wait that long in a boring map like that.

WhiteRabbit.6931:

Pepsi.8907:

l2p and l2dodge doesn’t simply mean learn to hit your keyboard and hope it works, it also means, learn WHEN to dodge… nowadays people have access to so many endurance that that small yellow bar is completely pointless… you probably dodged useless skills and was out of defenses against that 100b and gunflame… Warrior was probably a gimmick build where he would have died in a single shot and was virtually defenseless.
Luck has nothing to do with that, bad timing however…
As it is Op, we only have that picture of you being hit by telegraphed skills easily dodged by anyone who can see them coming and expect them to come (which thus mean they will keep at least one means to nullify the attack or get away), so yes we kinda go at you telling you that being hit by that full 100b was stupid because, in all honesty, it was.
You have that phase retreat which is on a 10CD on top of your two dodges and either AT LEAST a block or a blur on your other set (unless you’re running GS, but then it’s kinda your fault for trying to engage a berserker that close with a range weapon and no other mean to get away). You knew that warrior was incredibly bursty, even back in the day I could dodge a mesmer stealth burst, and if that wasn’t close to one-shot…
And your attitude doesn’t help matter, on top of you having only presented us with your picture, which doesn’t show anything beside you standing in a 100b and a gunflame, post a video next time

Iam not even going to argue with you… Only thing I have to say to you is that you are wrong!

There have been no time, in my mmo pvp history when people acually admitted that things were op! The simple reason is that they only see their side of the story, and never can get into other peoples perspective since they are selfish!

And this is also the reason why PvP balance in games gets ruined eventually, when people only thing about themself…

And in my history of mmo pvp, the warrior community in several games, always been the ones beeing the most ignorant! They dont know what balance is!

You are not going to argue with me, but you are still claiming that I am wrong where you clearly are the one who stated that Warrior/Zerker is OP and must be the one to logically and empirically defend your point. Which you are not doing, only hitting the same wall over and over again by telling people “they are wrong, selfish, oblivious, blind, ignorant, stupid, imbecile, arrogant, etc.” Of course you won’t get any form of proper answer, just people ramming the very same well, throwing back at you the same argument.
And you know what? You’re the one losing faces, because your picture shows a rank26 mesmer with one of the weirdest and subpar build that could actually exist in the current meta who managed to get hit by a FULL 100b
Yet you still have the arrogance to tell every single one on here that they are imbeciles blind to the “godly truth” you try to force down their throat.
Of course we’ll spit it back, because it’s not true, if it was as OP as you claim it was, then it would have been in Meta and in ESL. I too can create a one trick pony build that can one shot anything who close its eyes and face the other way, but in teamplay it’s pure horse kitten and that’s around what balance is made.
That warrior may have been able to kill one guy in a team play.
And then what? He got insta-down by all the CC, AoE, Condis and whatever else got spammed in the middle of the show. And that’s if he hasn’t gotten killed beforehand.
As a bunker on point, it would have insta died and it’s not even decent as a roamer because of the sheer lack in mobility.
Yes that 19k gunflame hit hard, but the skill is highly telegraphed, easily countered and that warrior must have built EVERYTHING around it, which means: very little defense.
Countless time in this meta it has been showed that warrior was subpar, not in term of damage, but in term of sustain and survivability. It has no means to escape and probably the worst defense currently in the meta, it has been pushed out so bad people will automatically assume the warrior is either a troll or a new player, but yeah you are the one holding the almighty truth based on one single warrior that countered your… thing you claim is a build…
Oh and:
“The warrior community” > Implying I am warrior? I never claimed something like that, even more than that: I’m mesmer!
OOUUUUHHHH

On another topic:
You’d have been better off with blink rather than Mirror image (lolz). 15 less CD for same stun break and additional mobility and escape capability.
Hell, maybe if you’d have run that, you would have managed to avoid that 100b and gunflame.
Woah!
And really, signet of inspiration in a condi build? on top of: trying to adapt DURING a meta, BEFORE any changes has been made?