Guild Wars 2

Wow you guys are so right how could I not have seen it before from the many other Moa complaints. This very visible 1 second cast time that can be blocked or evaded is a severe oversight in pvp. I mean what can you do if you get moa morphed?! It’s not like there are skills that can make you jump or an instant run away skill that evades everything. Of all the things A.net dropped the ball on this ability must be the worst outcome from it. Thanks so much for your insight guys.

P.S. Don’t post here again with silly complaints, we don’t want to have your qq threads tainting our discussions, thank you.

Phent.9350:

derbaer.1284:

Just watched the ready up. Perplexity runes are in for spvp, with confusion on interrupt as 6-piece bonus. Now what about a 0/20/20/0/30 sc/focus – staff build? With bountiful interruption instead off the staff trait? Mm….

I’m also considering same setup, pity that we have to go 20 in dueling for DE(IMO must have for shatter), it strongly limit our builds:/

I wouldn’t say it’s that limiting for a condition build since sharper images is a rather important trait for most of our condition builds.

Trigr.6481:

Raunchy.6891:

@Trigr
Please explain how you get good sustain without losing essential damage/utility in a shatter build. Which is the only competitively viable build in tpvp btw.

@Bearlin
I don’t think changing our illusion generation alone is going to be enough to make mesmers a bigger threat than they are in tpvp.

Sorry to break it to you, but shatter is not the only viable spec.

Countless

Because your triple signet phantasm build really did a number on my warrior right? Oh wait you didn’t kill me once, and I have no idea how to even play warrior lol.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Raunchy.6891:

Pyroathiest.4168:

Xaylin.1860:

Pyroathiest.4168:

I don’t think maimed is going to be good at all. That’s not bursty enough. That’s just another short duration, low intensity condition that everyone will just ignore.

It is sad that you can’t burst with Torment on its own but it might still be good enough. However, it will be a different playstyle than our current shatter builds. A more sustained one.

Use F1 for sustained damage which also got Confusion from Illusionary Retribution as cover up. Maybe add in Rending Shatters for even more conditions. Use F2 for burst. Ideally set up the burst with a close combat Sc#2 and pressure with Sc#3 after F2 hits. I’m quite confident it will work considering that you got the advantage of rabid or even settler gear over zerker. It probably won’t be more powerful than current shatter builds but that is not the point of the new traits anyway.

Yeah…I just don’t see it working out very well.

Assuming you have 50% condition duration, the torment lasts 6 seconds. A 3 clone shatter of this will do roughly 3500 damage in a build with quite high condition damage on a target that is moving the entire time. A normal shatter build will do that with 1 clone of a 3 clone shatter.

Basically, as usual, Anet failed miserably on the implementation of this. Shatters are by nature bursty. This is not bursty. This is not even sustain. This is just…weak.

You can’t really compare a power shatter build, to a condition shatter build. They use the same skills, yes, but they play completely differently and you know it. Also how is this not sustain? I’ll agree it’s not high damage, but what did you expect them to do? Give us some trait that makes all of our shatters hit like scepter #2?

What I look for in a shatter build is burst. Burst would be something like 2-3 stacks per clone, on a base 2 second duration. This allows you to actually build up potentially massive stacks for a couple really high ticks.

Mesmer doesn’t need sustained condition application. We have that from staff clones, duelists, dissipation traits, etc. What we lack is the ability to actually do an effect burst of conditions that isn’t reliant on horrible RNG (debilitating dissipation is the offender here).

Burst damage allows you to fight in a different way. It allows for strong opening movements, the capacity to finish people off rapidly, etc. Confusion is by nature a bursty condition, as it generally is applied at low durations in high stacks, but by itself it’s useless. With this trait Anet had the opportunity to make shatters potentially a true condition burst mechanic between confusion and torment, but they failed.

I still think they want Confusion to be our “burst” condition and not Torment, but we just need a better way to apply more stacks of it, because F2+Sc3 isn’t fooling any veterans. This trait still has lots of potential for a sick condition build when it comes out though.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Xaylin.1860:

Pyroathiest.4168:

I don’t think maimed is going to be good at all. That’s not bursty enough. That’s just another short duration, low intensity condition that everyone will just ignore.

It is sad that you can’t burst with Torment on its own but it might still be good enough. However, it will be a different playstyle than our current shatter builds. A more sustained one.

Use F1 for sustained damage which also got Confusion from Illusionary Retribution as cover up. Maybe add in Rending Shatters for even more conditions. Use F2 for burst. Ideally set up the burst with a close combat Sc#2 and pressure with Sc#3 after F2 hits. I’m quite confident it will work considering that you got the advantage of rabid or even settler gear over zerker. It probably won’t be more powerful than current shatter builds but that is not the point of the new traits anyway.

Yeah…I just don’t see it working out very well.

Assuming you have 50% condition duration, the torment lasts 6 seconds. A 3 clone shatter of this will do roughly 3500 damage in a build with quite high condition damage on a target that is moving the entire time. A normal shatter build will do that with 1 clone of a 3 clone shatter.

Basically, as usual, Anet failed miserably on the implementation of this. Shatters are by nature bursty. This is not bursty. This is not even sustain. This is just…weak.

You can’t really compare a power shatter build, to a condition shatter build. They use the same skills, yes, but they play completely differently and you know it. Also how is this not sustain? I’ll agree it’s not high damage, but what did you expect them to do? Give us some trait that makes all of our shatters hit like scepter #2?

I think Maimed by itself is nothing to write home about, but if you combine it with a few other traits it’s a good build to have. I’m looking forward to testing it.

Normally I would say arenas, but seeing as how there aren’t really any healing or support classes (closest is guardian) I think tdm better suits this game for 5v5 matches.

@Trigr
Please explain how you get good sustain without losing essential damage/utility in a shatter build. Which is the only competitively viable build in tpvp btw.

@Bearlin
I don’t think changing our illusion generation alone is going to be enough to make mesmers a bigger threat than they are in tpvp.

Anton.1769:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

“All you do with shatter Mesmer is spam clones iLeap+blurred and mash F1”

And few seconds later you are alone near angry warrior
To maximize your shatter damage you must be near enemie. In lcd build it’s not requireded

I don’t really see the difference in what you’re saying. Are you trying to say that since our interrupts are capable at range that it puts you in no danger to use them? If so I would have to argue that you’re quite mistaken. What do you plan on killing these people with after you interrupt, GS autoattack? That’s an easy way to ensure the fight lasts too long, and you run out of reliable interrupts with your opponent at half health maybe.

MSFone.3026:

As many other have said, DE should just be removed and replaced with other clone generation mechanism’s or cd reductions on current clone skills. Any new traits for clone generation should be in illusions.

IP is arguable the best trait in the game for mesmers, moving it down would be totally OP imo.

The only thing with removing it entirely is, what would you replace it with that’s intuitive and wouldn’t cause potential problems? Reductions on our current clone skills would be too powerful, so to me the best solution would be moving it down so it opens up more builds. It might make a couple builds a bit too powerful, but you can adjust that as it happens I guess.

Neurophen.9738:

Could you please name an OP build enabled by either lower DE or IP?

PU builds would be tankier than ever because you could invest 10 into Inspiration and get Mender’s Purity to deal with condition classes a lot better. IP is too good of a trait to get moved down. It would just make every build that uses a shatter have a big increase in damage, without investing that much for it. That just doesn’t seem balanced to me imo.

StickerHappy.8052:

Nettle.9025:

I don’t think, at least for me, that power block is going to be worth it.

The 30/0/30/10/0 pure lockdown I’m running now is just too good with the immense amount of condi cleanse and 3 dazes using harmonious mantras. Having played pure lockdown extensively recently, I just don’t think 5 more seconds is going to make a big enough difference to warrant dropping what I have now.

My thoughts exactly, hell you can lock someone down for as good as it gets for 5 secs cd. It would be still though getting it over CS or Harmonious mantras.

UNLESS = Powerlock would be a GM minor for Domination.

I think something similar to this should have been done actually. Since Wastrel’s Punishment is a pretty so-so trait for a GM minor.

People make the mistake of thinking they “need” these traits, but you only need them if you have a shatter heavy build. Even then, I’ve run a shatter build without DE with pretty good success.

Shatter will still be fine, you don’t need to change anything. Lockdown might get a bit more appealing after this patch though, and there are quite a few threads about it in these forums if you’re interested.

I don’t think the trait its self is bad. I just think it points out the glaring flaws of our healing capabilities.

Carighan.6758:

Raunchy.6891:

I feel like people come up with some pretty great stuff in the Mesmer forum, and it makes me sad that none of this will ever see the light of day.

That’s hardly true.
I mean this isn’t about the Mesmer forum, but the idea that Scarlet should destroy LA if she wanted to actually antagonize the players was something I posted – and the thread got fairly fairly long :P – back when the very first living story patch went live, wasn’t even about Scarlet, was about antagonists in MMOs in general.

While I see what you’re saying, that has nothing to do with the community influencing how our professions should be played. Although I don’t think we should have much influence in the matter, people share other great ideas on these forums and from what I’ve seen from the updates A.net puts out, most of them are rarely heard. The only way things get fixed or changed is if you have 100 threads complaining about it, which isn’t good.

I feel like people come up with some pretty great stuff in the Mesmer forum, and it makes me sad that none of this will ever see the light of day.

Well using Blurred Frenzy isn’t an option since they changed it from distortion to evade (so retaliation could effect it). It’s worth testing with F4 but I personally would never use it in a real situation since that would be a major cd to pop for 1k- 2k damage.

I agree that this game has a bit too much AI available, but at this point there isn’t a real way to make it better without completely changing how the classes work. So you either put up with it or you don’t.

As far as LoSing conditions, it’s not that hard to do (and you can actually do it to a mesmer as they cast phantasms fyi).

BlackDevil.9268:

Raunchy.6891:

BlackDevil.9268:

Raunchy.6891:

BlackDevil.9268:

I like how they give the best grandmaster traits to the trait lines which already got the best current GM traits.

Mesmer in raid vs big blobs gonna be… ’’fun’’ lol. Just facetank everything with perm immunity.

Are…….are you trolling? I can’t tell…

No? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJ1QZ_aPqc&list=PL8ED62A3D9F4A3742
Every time exp pops up I get 3 sec immunity. Add that with the dodges you get with perm vigor and the distortion from yourself + blurred frenzy. Perm immunity while in combat isnt that hard to obtain like that.

You say you aren’t trolling, but then you mention the dueling GM trait….lol. There are very few people with builds that use 30 in dueling besides pve phantasm builds, which are hard to pull off in pvp. I can sort of agree with you if you meant Domination, but definitely not Dueling.

You asked me if I was trolling about perm immunity, I said no. The problem you’re pointing out has nothing to do with if it’s possible or not. And actually, there are quite a bit roaming builds that got 30 in dueling or is viable with 30 in dueling such as PU builds.

This has gotten off topic so I’m going to end it here, but I never said it wasn’t possible. You said that they gave “the best grandmaster traits to the trait lines that have the current best GM traits” which I profusely disagree with. As far as the Dueling one goes I agree with Pyro that in most cases it will get “OP” when a fight is already nearing its close, which isn’t when you need it. In small skirmishes however, I do see this trait being a pain to play against. In 1v1 situations though it’s a rather useless trait. So it has its trade-offs, but overall I’d say it’s most useful in a roaming group of 3-5.

BlackDevil.9268:

Raunchy.6891:

BlackDevil.9268:

I like how they give the best grandmaster traits to the trait lines which already got the best current GM traits.

Mesmer in raid vs big blobs gonna be… ’’fun’’ lol. Just facetank everything with perm immunity.

Are…….are you trolling? I can’t tell…

No? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJ1QZ_aPqc&list=PL8ED62A3D9F4A3742
Every time exp pops up I get 3 sec immunity. Add that with the dodges you get with perm vigor and the distortion from yourself + blurred frenzy. Perm immunity while in combat isnt that hard to obtain like that.

You say you aren’t trolling, but then you mention the dueling GM trait….lol. There are very few people with builds that use 30 in dueling besides pve phantasm builds, which are hard to pull off in pvp. I can sort of agree with you if you meant Domination, but definitely not Dueling.

He said pve…

Also from what I understand it’s still just a standard phantasm build with sw/focus + sw/x.

@ledriel
Most pvpers have the impression that offhand sword is in a good place, and I would have to agree. It’s a very good dueling offhand with lockdown potential so I don’t see it being changed anytime soon.

@DuckDuckBOOM
I lol’d. Seriously though I would love to use a shortbow.

If you’re going for solo or small group condi removal then to me the mantra is the best choice. I get that you can’t always avoid condi bombs from other classes but it’s aoe condition clear on a 20 sec cd.

Also I’ve said this before but we shouldn’t have better condi removal than we already do without giving up damage. There is no spec that covers everything nor should there be, it wouldn’t be balanced.

BlackDevil.9268:

I like how they give the best grandmaster traits to the trait lines which already got the best current GM traits.

Mesmer in raid vs big blobs gonna be… ’’fun’’ lol. Just facetank everything with perm immunity.

Are…….are you trolling? I can’t tell…

@Dusty Moon
That’s 1200 traited. Which I think is only useful if you don’t need Deceptive Evasion, which is a rare case.

@ledriel
Sw/Sw is seen in pve sometimes with bosses that don’t have much aoe. You will never really see it in wvw but with the new lockdown trait we might see it a bit more in spvp.

Well with the new Illusions trait it doesn’t have to be a PU build to be a condi build which is actually a huge step in the right direction to me. I just don’t know what they could really do to make shatter more viable without making something overpowered or without nerfing everything to the ground.

It’s been a tough time for shatter no kidding, but I don’t think it’s something to be super up – in – arms about. I mean it’s not a nerf directly to us at least. And we will still have some of the highest burst in the game as far as 1v1/skirmishes go. I see it as a bigger nerf to thieves than us.

I think shortbow would be a more fun addition that could even give WvW mesmers a zerg friendly weapon, but hey to each his own.

I think you guys are hating on the Inspiration trait kinda hard. If you’re playing a support build with mantra heals you’re going to be using a focus/staff which means you can easily get interrupts. I didn’t hear if there was an icd or if it gets raised with multiple interrupts but it sounds like it could be pretty good if timed correctly. Which sounds pretty rewarding to me anyways. I get that it’s pretty specific and doesn’t have any use in PVE, but I don’t think it’s all that bad. :/

As far as the others go, I don’t see the Chaos trait being used over CI or PU since it doesn’t offer as much as those 2 traits. It would have been better if this was a master trait or something. Idk just not very creative here although the boons do make sense. Also the dueling one seems only useful in WvW, but it might bring some interesting builds into PvP. Only time will tell.

Nymph of Meliai.6739:

snip

I actually started to type a response to this and then realized how ridiculous this is. Please provide proof of these “bugs” because I honestly have never seen or heard of 90% of them from anyone, and I’ve played mesmer since launch.

I wouldn’t say mesmer is in as bad a state as you make it seem (in wvw is probably where we have it the worst), but I do agree some bug fixes are in order. Which is why A.net actually fixed quite a few of them if you didn’t know, though most are coming in the feature patch. Also the new GM traits are hoping to be a welcome increase to our usefulness and will hopefully create more viable competitive builds for us.

So much complaining over one trait that actually isn’t op, and they haven’t even released the others. If you really think that putting a heal on a 10 sec cooldown is the problem then you really haven’t played against a good lockdown mesmer. Unless I mess up or I’m fighting multiple people a channeled heal will always get interrupted. I also have to lol at saying we can just spam interrupts on a target about to heal like no one else can do that (ever heard of a thief). Not to even mention that unlike thieves our interrupts go on a sizable cooldown upon use, the shortest being the mantra daze.

If you’re looking for the most amount of damage you can do then going 30 into dueling is the only way to do it. Just my thoughts about that. If this works for you though then it’s fine.

zexion.5842:

I’m not sure why you guys keep thinking Illusion of life is better. Sure it has a faster cast time and slightly shorter CD then the others but first of all half the the time it doesn’t rez the players after rallying.

Secondly and most importantly all other rez skills don’t re-down the player if they don’t kill something. They are just rezed. That is prob why the CD is SLIGHTLY lower then most and the short cast time.

If you’re using Illusion of Life after your team got rolled, you’re doing it wrong. Otherwise it completely turns around fights.

Also I did a little check on other classes that have utilities (not elites) that revive and ours is easily the best. It revives multiple allies with a 1 second cast time and the main part is that we don’t give up anything crucial to have it other classes (besides Guardian probably) have to build around having a revival utility or they lose out on a much needed defensive/offensive skill. Then on top of that besides the Ranger revive (that you can only use on one person and makes your pet immobile and useless) the cooldown of other revives is 20-55 seconds longer than ours which is a big deal. Not to even mention the 3 second cast time for all of them which make them pretty much useless in any competitive situation.

If you want to run Mender’s Purity in a shatter build the only way you can do it without losing much burst is 10/20/0/10/30 which I’ve heard can be pretty good with runes of speed and MoR. As far as having the best possible condition removal coupled with the most burst we can have that’s not possible nor should it be. You need to give one up for another, but I can see a 10/0/0/30/30 or 0/10/0/30/30 build being usable in a group setting. I would just think that Mirror Images would be almost a must to have then.

As far as handling conditions in a shatter build though it’s a delicate balance between when to burst and when to play defensive. Being familiar with other classes helps but it’s typically best to try and cleanse/burst after the enemy has blown major cooldowns or you can try for a quick turnaround burst if they start chasing you.

Thanks for the video! I really enjoy watching you. It almost makes me wanna gear up for WvW lol.

I’ve experimented a bit with mantra heals, and shatter support. Since it looks like you’re going full shatter support I would suggest doing a 20/20/0/30/0 or 0/20/0/30/20 build, but if condi is what you want to do a 0/0/20/30/20 build could still work. I just think you can get a lot more out of the domination tree than you think, namely rending shatter (IV) and crippling dissipation (V). Also if you’re going to shatter a lot you need to put as much into illusions as possible. I liked using mantra of recovery with this build too, since you don’t have to recharge your heals as often. It’s really all up to preference as far as support builds go, but I think the 5 extra points in chaos would be much better spent in illusions. Other then that the build looks pretty interesting.

Send it to the bug forums!

Keyce.8137:

Most classes have boon stealing or condition cleansing, or both. Aside from the small buff that would mark how many attacks were left after activating the active effect, this elite is pretty much already countered by classes or builds meant to deal with these things.

I was under the impression that only s/d thieves could steal boons. Also that’s a bad thing for anything that gives boons, so I don’t see how it would make this suggestion not as useful.

As far as the condition cleansing goes, you would more then likely use this once you know the person has blown their cooldowns. Then you do a full condi combo and would activate the signet for an extra kick.

Lol well now that we figured that out, I want to go back to the counter suggestion. Which if you made that change would make countering a lot less intuitive and definitely a lot harder to time. Since that would change it from 2 button presses to 3 it just wouldn’t seem useful as a “counter”.

I’m thinking since it has no ICD probably like 6 seconds for each boon. Which seems short but it balances the defensive boons while keeping good uptime for utility/offensive boons.

You also have to consider that this skill is usable in PvP, and there I would say it’s quite balanced. Reviving up to 5 allies instantly is a big deal and easily turns the tide of a fight. I do, however, see how this skill could be a lot less useful in PvE but I don’t think it needs to be changed because of that.

Keyce.8137:

Personally, I would rethink the passive of that elite skill. You’ve already got a trait line that reduces shatter CD the more points you put into it, and a signet that refreshes their CD when you use the active, and a trait that refreshes them when you reach 50% health.

Another 10% reduced recharge seems like overkill. How about… grants one boon for every clone you shatter?

I like that idea better actually, but the way you suggest it works would actually be more powerful than a 10% decreased cooldown. If it’s one boon per shatter skill though, that seems reasonable.

Thedenofsin.7340:

I totally forgot about the passive for Signet of Chaos… How about:

Reduces the cooldown of your shatter skills by 15%

I think it kinda works. But man I feel that would make shatter builds so strong lol.

Iavra.8510:

Too much revealed stuff. Rather than giving us (or any class) access to revealed, tone down stealth (be it for thieves, mesmer, engis or even rangers) if needed.

I would rather have counter-play than nerfs any day. Reworking entire classes and traits is not easy and frankly unnecessary to solve the issue.

I actually like most of these suggestions. Here’s what I disagree with though:

It seems like an unnecessary buff to phantasm builds making Empowered Illusions a minor trait, but instead of removing Illusion of Vulnerability altogether I think putting it on Halting Strike would be a fine change.

I think Empowered Mantras is rather underrated and could be seen a bit more if it was an adept major trait, but that might be only my opinion.

Changing scepter like that would make it have far too much clone generation unless you slow the cast speed of Ether Bolt by a lot. Also I’m not completely following what you mean with the blocks. So our block would act as another classes shield block I get that. But A.net doesn’t seem to want mesmers to have access to much burning so I would suggest confusion. Also how the counters would work seems strange. So you wouldn’t have quick access to a blind or daze because you have to spend the first 2 seconds channeling a block. So whatever good those moves were going to do you has long since passed. That doesn’t sound like much of a counter to me. Also that seems like too defensive of a mechanic to put on non defensive weapons.

I also don’t see much point in Phantasmal Mage putting reveal on a target. I don’t think that mechanic should be given to AI. Although to me this is just a minor gripe because I want this game to be more technical than it currently is.

Now this signet is a good idea. The only thing that could make it or break it would be the passive. Also I think there should be specific conditions applied but I can see how making it random can help both power and condition builds.

Overall I think these are pretty great ideas. Kudos to you for sharing them with us.

Calliope.8675:

Well, most mesmers typically use a shatter build for PvE purposes and switch it up a bit for WvW if they want more survivability.

I hope you meant pvp and not pve o_o’’

StickerHappy.8052:

^why not?

Thats why i was saying if you have a large success rate in interrupts it is therefore redundant. And why wont menders purity work if i run CS? I mean without mantra GM yes it is only 2 charges but 2 charges is still 4 conditions on a 10 sec cd.

4 conditions every 10 seconds sounds good, but put into practice if you run across any condition heavy class they can reapply those conditions faster than you took them off and then you’re left with a sub-par heal. Harmonious Mantras only barely makes Mender’s Purity worth it in a pvp setting.

StickerHappy.8052:

@All

Just a question:

For going 30 into DOM

Harmonious Mantras or CS?

People Tell me that CS and CI are redundant.

Yes it will be, but only if you have 90-100% interrupt rates.

I like the stun proc because it is a safe bet if youre not hitting all your interrupts.

I wanted to tweak Nettle’s Build.

I tried out CS with CI and I’ve found that it’s pretty useful for the reasons you stated but Mender’s Purity won’t really work for you if you run CS. Which means you have to switch out Signet of Domination. At least in my head that’s what it comes to. Overall though I like both of them together but imo it pigeonholes you a bit into needing at least one weapon with daze to fully utilize CS. Also if you do happen to interrupt+stun it’s a bit of a waste, especially if CI applies cripple.

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

I play a similar build but rather going with the 20/20/30, am running a 20/30/20 for more direct damage with heavy crit build.

One of the utility people don’t really mention here is the feedback utility skill. To me it a must, as I always use it as an offensive and defensive skills.

The other two utility slots mostly use Decoy, Blink, but been experimenting with P Defender for more defensive option (against thieves) and Arcane Thievery if going up against boon user or heavy condition user.

Next time, I am hoping to try Signet of Domination for more CC but that means I have to lose either Decoy or Blink. Both are very useful when you come up against multiple players.

Before anyone ask, why don’t I use Mantra of Distraction, the one sec stun is not really good, unless I can increase it to a minimum of 2 sec.

People don’t use Feedback outside of wvw zergs/pve because it really doesn’t have a place in spvp. There’s not as much confusion as there is in wvw and players don’t stay stationary like mobs do in pve. So at most against a good player you will have them get 2 shots reflected back to them before they move out of the area or they switch to their melee weapon. So you just wasted a 40sec cooldown that did maybe 2-3k damage.

Also the point of Mantra of Distraction is more to get interrupts and not for the pure dazing effect. Since we have quite a few traits that give added effects to interrupting, Mantra of Distraction is the best tool to utilize this. Although if you spec into Confounding Suggestions and use full Runes of the Mesmer I’m told the daze goes up to 1.75 seconds.