Guild Wars 2

Zenith.7301:

scerevisiae.1972:

Zenith.7301:

Dire mesmers are more than WORTHLESS in WvW. Do you honestly think your garbage dueling/roaming builds accomplish anything in a format all about large groups of people taking keeps and towers?

WvW should NEVER be based on duelist/5v5 builds. We’re balancing for zerg play in this format, and mesmer AoE is utter garbage as is their illusion/shatter mechanic in any large scale engagement.

One of the reasons why WVW succeeds is that it offers a wider range of challenges and experiences compared to sPVP (sh1tPVP)/PVE. In my experience, dire mesmers, while crappy for the zvz clash, are great at harrassing, picking off stragglers and reinforcements, not to mention key skills like veils/portals.

back on topic: yes every class has utilities or traits that continue to suck in all 3 game modes and yes it’s pretty appalling for this still to be the case in an almost-4yo game.

e.g. Ele conjures are a utility group that have had loads and loads of negative feedback and good suggestions over the years, all of which has been studiously ignored by Anet.

Arguably, Rev is in the worst position, being the newest and therefore, least mature class. e.g. the whole Ventari legend and traitline are still very beta.

People can solo dungeons/fractals in some classes for some niche challenge they enjoy. That’s no reason to balance classes around their ability/efficiency in soloing dungeons.

WvW is about capturing objectives and preventing your enemies from doing the same. Similar to spvp, but on a much larger scale and time slot.

Condi mesmer is worse than thief builds, because while it is a supreme duelist, it is utter garbage at chasing.

Virtually all you need to do if a Dire mesmer jumps you is keep running and use your cleanse/heal.

Mesmer has virtually zero mobility to chase you on staff outside his blink, and staff clones can’t hit a moving target with their pathetic projectile speed.

You only die to a dire mesmer if you are an idiot and stay there dueling him.

Unlike a thief who is just as good for duels but can chase anyone down except another thief or a warrior with ease.

We can’t ask for 1v1 class balance, especially in a pvp format like WvW which has no 60% crit damage bonus cap (which spvp does, so in WvW I can bring a character with 220% crit damage bonus, which is ridiculous), allows broken stat combos, allows condi/CC duration and reduction food, and which doesn’t punish crappy stealth spam or invulnerability chains.

WvW’s main objective is the Mist War points. If you deviate from that, by all means have your fun but don’t come back and complain about class balance because you lost duels in a game format that’s nothing about duels.

You simply cannot balance any mmorpg with 1v1, you arent suppose to, pvp is suppose to be about group pvp not solo anyways, you will always have more trouble vs certain classes and thats the way its meant to be. It baffles me why people think they need to be balanced vs every class? If the game doesnt balance you to solo dungeons quickly then there is no reason to believe you can be balanced vs all classes in pvp, thats just silly.

Lalainnia.3598:

ventari/salvation main annoyance in my personal experience is the tablet moving mechanics could use room for improvement in terms of clunky the energy levels on skills could use some adjustment as well outside of that when actually geared to heal rev have if not the best possible burst healing if you can land it on a friendly.

Things I would improve for the energy levels

Project tranquility (summoning the tablet) removed cast time

Ventaris will energy cost reduced to 5 down from 10 and cd reduced from 4 down to 2. Radius increased to 240.

Natrual Harmony radius increased to 330

Purifying Essence radius increased to 330 and energy cost reduced by 5 bringing it to 25 energy.

Protective solace radius increased to 300 energy cost reduced by 1 bringing it too 7 energy down from 8.

Energy expulsion radius increased to 330 and the explosion and knock back portion perform quicker.

As for Jalis I’m really not sure what the prob is with it it works amazing if anything it’s noticeably better with a hammer. vengeful hammers is amazing it’s not meant to be used for its damage/healing that’s just a bonus it’s suppose to reduce incoming damage and condi damage by a whooping 20% while active and you can use it while stunned. Forced engagement is a 1,200 taunt on a 5 second cd…… it may cost 35 energy but on a legend swap u start with 50 opening with that can be devastating followed up with other cc.

Personally I think its fun to move the tablet around but if its that much of an issue then maybe it should follow you instead.

caerulean.4837:

This is definitely important and requires some attention. I’m one of those people who actually likes underwater combat (and loved the pirate ship PvP map) and it saddens me to think underwater combat is just being ignored. Especially since there are a number of personal story missions that rely on underwater combat. A solution would definitely be to remember underwater legend selection separately to the ones you choose on land, the same way every other proffesion’s utilities swap when they go underwater. And those remaining legends should surely be altered to work in water too, I can’t imagine that being an issue at launch.

I personally think underwater combat is fun, to many people look down on it, there is nothing wrong with combat itself, but some classes need more skills underwater.

Lunacy.5183:

How is class balance viability? Are most classes still pigeon-holed into 1-2 specs?

Thanks for the nice response btw

They recently confirmed a pve and pvp split this is good because that means more room for build diversity, and a balance update should be coming in the 14th I believe so you licked a good time to come back.

Ranlares.2513:

Ryou.2398:

Actually certain mmos have had unique combat systems before 2016 but they are all not very good, and while those combat systems are updated they are repetitive and shallow.

Never did i say all were good and did not need updating, I was making the point that this one is not a failure of a game. Any game failing because of it’s combat should relook at it, obviously lol. GW2 does not have this problem, obviously.

I see my bad.

DeanBB.4268:

You would have to first define what those labels mean to you. For example, “Monk” in GW1 was primarily a healer. “Battlemage” could bring any number of meanings.

Battlemage is obvious and no it cannot really be a number of things beyond a casting/melee hybrid.

Actually certain mmos have had unique combat systems before 2016 but they are all not very good, and while those combat systems are updated they are repetitive and shallow.

I run scepter/dagger right now, dont go staff unless you want to be in fire attunement most of the time, I feel scetper/staff is far more versatile since I dont have tempest yet im running with arcane/air/then fire. Using flame of the legion runs and beserker gear for now using a glyph build, also I use both summon abilities for soloing and group content works out really great. Actually its worked out quite well in wvw to but I also like to switch out fire for earth for survivability.

Josh Davis.6015:

Trigr.6481:

---

Balancing SPvP individually——-

- This is probably the single most important change that the SPvP community needs whether you realize it or not. Not only does this make sense, but since SPvP is already isolated, not one change you make here effects the rest of the game. The way it currently works the devs expect us as players to think about the rest of the game before giving changes to a specific game type, however this way of thinking will never create good balance and the reason why is the majority of changes people suggest are obviously only made and will work for Spvp. WvW and PvE are very different in terms of balance and changes for one often conflict with the other two making the change almost meaningless to begin with.

The Lesh Prince recently developed some tech that makes skill-splitting more feasible than it was previously – you’ll see some PvP (and PvE) splits in the next balance update. It’s important to understand that changes will still need to be global, but we’ll definitely have a bit more flexibility moving forward.

Keeping parity between modes when possible is important to us – but when it’s not feasible we’ll look at splits.

edit: that clickbait though

Woohooo! Thank you anet for listening to our feedback you guys rock!

gin.7158:

Meh… ele is so simple both for pve and pvp. Instrument wutt??? more like faceroll on keyboard.

Maybe a warrior but not an ele.

Ohhhh me likey!

Well ele is suppose to be one of the most complex classes, if ele isnt complex anymore what is?

reikken.4961:

Ele used to be more difficult to play before HoT, but tempest makes it pretty easy.

In any case, pve staff dps ele is very simple. You only need to press 3 buttons. Lava font-> meteor shower. wait 4 seconds. lava font->overload. wait 4 seconds. lava font on cooldown until meteor shower is off cooldown. repeat. Congratulations, you have the game’s top dps.

If you want to get extra fancy, add ice bow, and for the lava fonts with no channel in between, press autoattack to cancel the lava font’s aftercast delay.

Now, support ele isn’t nearly as simple. Ele in any vs player context is not simple at all.

There are multiple metabuilds for pve though thats only one of the dps builds.

Just because you dont switch attunements dont make the class simple, its far from simple and ive been hearing how they are simple lately, yet a few months ago people would say they are complex, these people must not be playing an ele right if they think its that simple.

Asclepios.4295:

It highly depends on what you prefer and find fun.

Revenant: very easy to play, crazy high damage, the gameplay comes down to auto-attack on shiro stance and switch to glint for buffs when you run out of resource. The consensus is that revenants are OP but boring to play if you’re looking for a dynamic game style. Choose it if you like easy high melee damage with little brain input, for example to relax and release real life pressure.

Elementalist: highest dps in the game, low survivability, ranged. Most ele play staff dps with a basic rotation (2-5-2-7-2-0-2). It is fun if you want to go through mobs like a hot knife through butter. Better enjoyed in groups, it’s more demanding in brain input than revenant but is still perfect for when you just want something simple.

Mesmers: a lot less dps, but much harder to play. Ranged, they come with an incredible amount of goodies, enjoyable both alone or in groups. You won’t be an efficient dps, but if you are looking for high brain input, this is the class for you

Necros: quite high dps, high versatility. Necros come with a wide range of very different but still efficient gameplays. You can go condi, pet master, direct damage, etc. Very nice if you want to try different things and change once in a while. Not easy to play, it does require brain input.

Guardians: the only class that can be effective at range in heavy armor, it is also very good at melee. They don’t excell enywhere per say, but you can switgh melee/range at will without losing much efficiency, which can be interesting from a fun point of view. They have a high number of goodies for groups if you like to play support. Harder to play, they require a moderate amount of brain input

Engineers: the class you need if you like the idea of diversity. They can do a bit of everything, without ever excelling at it. You can litterally spend dozen of hours tweaking your engineer to try different approaches. Fun if you like diversity, horrendous if you want something simple and efficient

Thieves: very enjoyable and satisfying in pvp, you will suffer hell in pve. Perfect if you want to pvp. Very high single target dps, requires brain input.

Rangers/warriors: I haven’t played these, I can’t promise anything. In game, they have the reputation to be mostly useless ald boring to play.

Elementalists are far from simple, if you do not rotate through attunements your playing it wrong, sure you may be able to get away with playing it simply depending on the situation but please dont call elementalists simple they are far from it.

Paulytnz.7619:

tolunart.2095:

Paulytnz.7619:

Funny how it’s now you coming out with numbers which I will not comment more on. You are ignoring anything that I am saying about my experiences from playing the game with both zerk or other gear. You are also throwing out stuff totally unrelated to this entire topic. Not only that but this all started from my 1 comment which went as such:

General statements are not numbers. I’m looking at the big picture, while you are projecting your personal bias on the entire playerbase – statements like saying that anything “less” than zerk gear is too slow and boring. I’ve never used it and while the game isn’t perfect, I’ve never found combat boring outside of the world boss events where I used to semi-afk while 100 or so toons chipped away at the boss’s hp total for 45 seconds.

It doesn’t matter anyway. Zerk is not the be-all and end-all of the game, and the devs don’t tune around it, they tune around the idea that nearly every build is some flavor of dps because they built the game to work without tanks and healers. It’s the Trinity that is the artificial concept, they didn’t have that sort of thing in tabletop RPGs which these games are heavily based on.

How exactly am I biased when 90% of my play time here has been in PVT gear and only NOW I am changing to zerk or condi? Again when I say things like “anything less than zerk is slow or boring” is from MY own exp/opinion. Did I say anywhere it applies to everyone? Wow you really can’t let things go can you?

I do find it funny however how you say you are looking at the big picture yet you are commenting so much on a certain stat gear you have never tried using yourself. How can you comment on it if you have NEVER used it? The mind boggles. Here I am someone who has used PVT for 90% of my gameplay through 11 chars through all their stories and world completes. All through LS2, all through HOT story and played them all in PvP. I comment from my experiences from all of that from both zerk gear and PvT. And yet you say what I say means nothing and you shoot down a certain set when you have never used it? Wow really come on now just let it go….

PS The following looks like numbers to me and not a general statement:

“On the forums there are a couple dozen regulars, perhaps a hundred or so who post once in a while, a few thousand who lurk”

I will let it go if you do. :P

Thats true, there are tons of people who dont even go to the forums here atleast, plus some use only reddit.

I would base it off what you usually play in rpgs, then ask yourself if you want something flashy.

So basically the conclusion is anet may or may not be balancing around zerker gear, but one has to wonder if its more of the community then anything, I imagine that people have builds that work really well in pvp, wvw, or even pve they dont share and may not be listed in the meta, why would you share a build you made that works with strangers?

Depends what you like, personally im not into easy to play but powerful classes.

Ashen.2907:

Ryou.2398:

Ashen.2907:

Ryou.2398:

sI have never seen an mmorpg with so many people who prefer to cheese through things doing the same exact tactics over and over.

Odd, that describes pretty much every trinity game I’ve seen, to me.

It doesnt get cheesier, to me, than mobs ignoring the dangerous characters to focus on the tough guy throwing yo mamma jokes, or whatever constitutes a taunt.

Then you didnt play much of those games, again people have no clue what they are talking about when they say trinity when most mmorpgs cover far more roles and classes then the trinity and those classes that tank, heal, or dps can do allot more things then just that. City of heroes for example we will talk about the defender archtypes, they where a support class however not all of them supported the same, for example if you want dark/dark defender you could cc with tentacles, while leaching life to heal your group and dpsing them at the same time, or a you may go fire/ice tanker where you have a can tank with a bit more dps from using fire with the defensives of ice, or an illusion controller where you can heal, crowd control, dps, and offer utility at the same time like blinds, my point is while you have some key roles most mmorpgs offer more then just those roles within those classes you can spec for other things to make them even more unique and diverse.

And you can do much (and perhaps more) of that with GW2 builds as well.

Ryou.2398:

I dont know what mmorpg you played where all they had was 3 roles from 3 different classes, im guessing many here havent played many mmorpgs to begin with. Even wow had diverse classes.

I didn’t say anything about class diversity. I didn’t claim to have played MMOs where all they had was 3 roles from 3 different classes. I did respond to your comment about cheesing content with repetitive tactics by pointing out that it described trinity play style to me. You mention WoW. How many major fights in WoW did not involve having one, or more, characters holding aggro while one or more characters healed, while more characters DPSed the foe?

I mentioned wow for other examples along with other mmorpgs but your forgetting fhe other roles in wow, you also had cc, debuffing like from a warlock and more.
I

I’m sure the idea is great but your still a guardian, at this rate you might as well make a new idea for an entire new class like a shadow Knight. I have to disagree its way to different for the guardian as a class. I do love the concept of a new form of condi beyond burning and its a great idea but ad I said it just wouldn’t fit.

Setsunayaki.4907:

This thread is an example of the frustration that exists within the Elementalist Class itself. Don’t get me wrong as when GW2 was launched I wanted to be an Elly from the start, and I was….. Back when it was strong and powerful.

It was always nice to be able to have a mage in the game until they took out the mage part and everything became more about support. I always loved the fact that Elly has a skill to help in every situation possible, and one of the reasons why Celestial builds became popular was to actually balance out the skills in a way that they weren’t too powerful or were too lacking that it was useless…

Prior to leaving this game I had many different sets of armor in my storage from all the times Elementalist was nerfed and I had to go after something else. It wasn’t fun when a nerf broke a build and I was forced to start over with a new build from scratch just to find that build nerfed in a future patch.

The people were like “yeah, it makes you think and always switch everything up” and I was like "This is a game, not a second job…and I find it annoying that outside of instant-damage on Fresh-Air builds or making an offensive bunker build, that elly pretty much became a heal-bot class.

First game where my love for support was in a mage class that lost its ability to mage (compared to when it was released) and retained its ability to support.

This thread is an example of why I haven’t come back to this game. I don’t mean the type of posting, as I can go to any forum out there on the net….and find the same quality of posting. At least here people actually would declare that they mean no offense or rudeness.

I remember having a lot of builds as Elementalist in Guild Wars 1 and playing GW2 I though the graphics and animations were cool for Elly, but hated how things panned out. I was loyal to Elementalist, and rather than picking a new main class… I went through hell in my real life and left the game.

This game was originally advertised that it was YOUR story and it was about the way YOU wanted to play. It then became NOT your story and it became all about how the developer WANTS YOU TO PLAY, and I never found that to be fair.

I am still waiting for the day I can return to this game, play my Elly again and find that I can feel good with a straight face and that I can look at the other elementalist across from me…. and know we have separate, yet equally effective builds to squash each other with, and run with a sign of relief that the opposing elementalist that is out there killing me is not running the same two to three builds that I am always running.

So much for Build Diversity

World vs World was by far my favorite thing in Guild Wars 2, and I felt that I went from Build-Crafting to have fun to Build-Crafting in order to survive.

Hello to Tarnished Coast….Been Gone forever….don’t know if I should return!

Well not everyone wants a simple dps caster to play, and I’ve played other mmorpgs with nore complex ele types, anyways I don’t see how it’s an issue that they have the capability to heal, you can just spec for more dps or codi dps if you want to.

Watson.6492:

I’v been extremely discouraged from playing my ele in WvW ever since Tempest became meta. Running around channeling an AoE spell with all kinds of buffs tacked on is probably the single least skillful design you could promote in the game. It’s a FAR cry from the old playstyle.

I seem to be doing pretty good without it and I’m under leveled and geared. Hek I’m only using 2 specs.

I am greatful anet paird us with a server like maguuma but for tbr most part people are different in mag then dr, I’m guessing dr sounds more like s laid back place so that’s likely why. Still im glad we aren’t left in the dust for wvw.

I think it might make more sense with thief but I think it should move away from the poison/thief aspect and be a little tanker and Monk like with a martial arts playstyle.

Esquilax.3491:

This whole thread is toxic and the opposite of why I play this game.

It is? I didnt mean to sound toxic if I did, I thought it was a healthy discussion for the most part.

Honestly I would love for them to push out expansions like guild wars 1 did, it was not to much and not to little. As long as it brings them money so they can refine then game ill be happy.

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

But thats kind of the point others are trying to make, if a guardian can specialize in keeping others alive then why not? Why does everyone have to self survival when other classes can do it for you for people that enjoy that playstyle?

It’s simple. Because you just don’t get it both ways in this game. There is no holy trinity. What is left? What you get in GW2. Can you have it both ways? Maybe, but that’s not really relevant. lots of things can be. What’s relevant is what is.

It is relevant to the topic so you shouldnt be saying it isnt at all.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

No thats not what I was saying, I was saying you should be able to play to the strength of your class, im saying that you can be diverse and have a main role at the same time, and yes you can in other mmorpgs with no problem but you need to find certain classes to put in your groups depending on what you have, while certain games like eq1 or 2 had tons of classes you still may need to fill kitten or two depending on what you have however you could do content in many different ways with all different kinds of class combinations and builds.

GW2 profession design is such that all professions have uses and strengths. You can play to the strength of your class. You seem to want me to believe that there is no meta in some other MMO’s? That there is no exclusion based on which classes play a role better? Not only is this contrary to my experience, it’s hard to believe. Are you assuming that developers can design a game so that diverse classes are all going to be thought equal by players who care about efficiency?

Ryou.2398:

I agree with this but as I said earlier we should be able to play to out strengths but its to discouraged because people find ways around not using those roles as you pointed out.

That was definitely the case in v. 1 dungeons. Still is, afaik. ANet has promoted the aggro management role in raids, as well as healing. They’ve promoted condi use by putting high toughness on some mobs, and the break bar mechanic provides more easily understandable and accessible of the control role.

I’m unsure what else they could do without: (1) reworking the whole game over to hard trinity+; or (2) nerfing the damage dealing stats. Since (1) would alienate all the players that like greater self-sufficiency and take developer resources away from new content generation — which is sorely needed, I don’t see that as advisable. Also, since glass stats and bulwark/sustain stats seem fairly well balanced in the PvP modes, I don’t think a nerf sufficient to turn players away from glass is warranted.

My point is in those other mmorpgs more builds where meta then this one for example, the mmorpgs ive played where simply far more diverse and had more room to build. And yes devs can design an mmorpg with more balance ive seen it. And I have not been playing gw2 since the start so I dont know how it was originaly designed anyways. And ive never seen anyone play to the strength of a class in this game, well very few people considering no one uses roles in this, everyone just goes for dps so that doesnt even make sense. The only meta for roles as far as I know is druid healing, and mesmer utility.

And for the most part I disagree with, I dont know why you felt the need to bring up more stuff when I already said I agree with your other point.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Ryou.2398:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Right but there are ways to get dps beyond just gear, certain classes that may build more for support may be able to help groups dps through buffs for example. Anyways there is condi atleast. In my honest opinion I think sigils should be more powerful and unique, they just arent very interesting. Of course I dont want to be op but there needs to be a way to make them more powerful and balanced, there are very few they truly stand out.

No one was arguing that about stats though. We are talking about gear diversity in general so people can play beyond just dps.

Are you suggesting there are not ways to get dps increase beyond gear in gw2?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower_Allies
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Presence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grace_of_the_Land
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence

Would you like me to continue?

If your talking to me for crying outloud I literally just said the opposite did you even read it?

Maybe I misunderstood you. The tone I was getting from skimming the thread was you saying gw2 was lacking something other games had. shrug.

I did say it lacks, but it also offers things others do not, but I never said you cannot offer dps through buffs.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

Ok but we aren’t talking about that, of course you can find people to do this with but realistically the majority don’t and people who want something different won’t always be available when you are, so it still is an issue for many. As far as builds being effective they can be in different ways if you played other mmorpgs you should know it’s hardly a pipe dream and im not saying all builds.

So, you admit you can play whatever role/build you want in GW2. However, you want the convenience of being able to do that with whatever other players happen to be available. No MMO has offered that level of accessibility in harder, instanced group PvE. To make it fly in WoW, Bliz had to implement Looking for Raid and lower the challenge level dramatically. As long as the challenge level is up or as long as people with time issues want to farm rewards as fast as they can, you will find exclusion based on perceived effectiveness. This is and will remain a people issue that is only susceptible to developer intervention via anonymous hot join and content difficulty nerfs.

Ryou’s reply,
No thats not what I was saying, I was saying you should be able to play to the strength of your class, im saying that you can be diverse and have a main role at the same time, and yes you can in other mmorpgs with no problem but you need to find certain classes to put in your groups depending on what you have, while certain games like eq1 or 2 had tons of classes you still may need to fill kitten or two depending on what you have however you could do content in many different ways with all different kinds of class combinations and builds.

Ryou.2398:

people have no clue what they are talking about when they say trinity when most mmorpgs cover far more roles and classes then the trinity and those classes that tank, heal, or dps can do allot more things then just that.

GW2 offers multiple roles for each profession. Not all professions can play all the roles the game offers. Offensive buffers, defensive buffers, controllers, aggro management, heal provider are all roles good groups use. The problem was twofold.

• Players found ways to complete dungeons that allowed them to ignore most of the options available to the professions. Anet has and should continue to address this through mob and encounter design.
• Some players cannot wrap their heads around the idea that gear choice, which is central to role design in older MMO’s, was only central to damage in GW2. Now, it plays more of a role in aggro management due to the tweaks to make Toughness central to aggro.

Ryou’s reply,
I agree with this but as I said earlier we should be able to play to out strengths but its to discouraged because people find ways around not using those roles as you pointed out.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Right but there are ways to get dps beyond just gear, certain classes that may build more for support may be able to help groups dps through buffs for example. Anyways there is condi atleast. In my honest opinion I think sigils should be more powerful and unique, they just arent very interesting. Of course I dont want to be op but there needs to be a way to make them more powerful and balanced, there are very few they truly stand out.

No one was arguing that about stats though. We are talking about gear diversity in general so people can play beyond just dps.

Are you suggesting there are not ways to get dps increase beyond gear in gw2?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower_Allies
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Presence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grace_of_the_Land
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence

Would you like me to continue?

If your talking to me for crying outloud I literally just said the opposite did you even read it?

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

The point I was making was that the meta is always “The stat that gives the most DPS for your character’s damage type”. In Guild Wars 2, however, there aren’t arbitrarily-different stats for different damage types. You want direct damage? You grab Power, not “Strength, Dexterity, or Magic” depending on whether you want to deal blunt, piercing, or some sort of energy damage.

Right but there are ways to get dps beyond just gear, certain classes that may build more for support may be able to help groups dps through buffs for example. Anyways there is condi atleast. In my honest opinion I think sigils should be more powerful and unique, they just arent very interesting. Of course I dont want to be op but there needs to be a way to make them more powerful and balanced, there are very few they truly stand out.

No one was arguing that about stats though. We are talking about gear diversity in general so people can play beyond just dps.

Tornupto.2304:

In trinity games there are mostly 1 tank, 1-2 healers and X guess what? DPS PLAYERS in a raid/whatever. I don’t get why some ppl think a trinity stops dps from beeing meta.

Yep, and its because they think trinity classes an mmorpgs are just that trinity when they usually offer tons of roles and classes and builds within those roles which can do more.

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

If you don’t go for Dex as an archer, though, you’re off-meta. Same here. But it means Archers need “Hunter’s” gear instead of “Berzerker’s”. And as for “DPS is most important” – yes, yes it is, because people tend to value their time. That said – zerker isn’t ‘Reckless". It’s high-risk/skill, high-reward. The meta doesn’t care about casual scrubs who need stats to cover for their mistakes, only the best of the best with active damage mitigation.

Actually thats not true in every rpg, for example titan quest strength is based off all weapons, but you can increase piercing capability with dex. My point is in every rpg dex isnt always needed for meta as an archer. In everquest you needed to specialize on the ranger if you wanted stats more towards ranged bow dps or magic. Then you got to take it further and specialize towards the skills related to the magic you where using.

Ashen.2907:

Ryou.2398:

sI have never seen an mmorpg with so many people who prefer to cheese through things doing the same exact tactics over and over.

Odd, that describes pretty much every trinity game I’ve seen, to me.

It doesnt get cheesier, to me, than mobs ignoring the dangerous characters to focus on the tough guy throwing yo mamma jokes, or whatever constitutes a taunt.

Then you didnt play much of those games, again people have no clue what they are talking about when they say trinity when most mmorpgs cover far more roles and classes then the trinity and those classes that tank, heal, or dps can do allot more things then just that. City of heroes for example we will talk about the defender archtypes, they where a support class however not all of them supported the same, for example if you want dark/dark defender you could cc with tentacles, while leaching life to heal your group and dpsing them at the same time, or a you may go fire/ice tanker where you have a can tank with a bit more dps from using fire with the defensives of ice, or an illusion controller where you can heal, crowd control, dps, and offer utility at the same time like blinds, my point is while you have some key roles most mmorpgs offer more then just those roles within those classes you can spec for other things to make them even more unique and diverse.

I dont know what mmorpg you played where all they had was 3 roles from 3 different classes, im guessing many here havent played many mmorpgs to begin with. Even wow had diverse classes.

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

DPS isn’t a spec anymore than “Winning” is a playstyle. There are all sorts of builds and specializations in Guild Wars 2. But you’re just clumping them all together.

What makes Guild Wars 2’s stats tend to be the same is how ‘direct’ they are. In other games, different classes have different bonuses from the same stats – Warriors would rely on “Strength”, casters would use “Intelligence” (Or “Magic”), Archers would use “Dexterity”…. and all those stats would also have secondary benefits for off-class uses.

Im not clamping at all it isnt just about the gear, the zerker mentality also has allot to do with builds since everyone assumes dps is the best and only way to play, therefor many classes that can build for other things are more limited for pugs and etc, so in a way I am right.

And usually in those games where you choose stats you get to choose other stats as well, and do not have to go for dex as an archer for example, even in mmorpgs you get to choose to beyond one simple stat choice. For example a warrior may go for more defense so instead of strength they can get more stamina or defense.

Tornupto.2304:

Ryou.2398:

People who usually play mmorpgs or rpgs in general are people who like to spend time with the game and content, besides if gaming is that much of a waste of time then why game at all? Rushing through content asap is not human nature, thats just people who dont know patience or refuse to smell the flowers. For the most part mmorpgs are meant to take time when you do group content and such.

There are ppl out there who don’t enjoy fighting a boss for hours if he is no threat at all. But thats the thing that happens if you build arround defense too much. You lower your damage and the encounter gets more and more easier. At some point that ends in enable Autoattack and go afk for 2 hours.
What some ppl enjoy is getting better, getting faster while doing their daily dungeons/fractals/whatever. Some ppl don’t try to be fast for the sake of time, but for fun. And is that not a goal of playing a game?

Well yea of course but that’s not what we are discussing here, what I’m saying is there would no need to feel that way if there was a more demand for a variety of roles and tactics where it isn’t always the same.

Honestly go arcane first, and go for glyph recharge or arcane recharge trait, if glyph use both your reg summon and your elite when you wait on cooldown, I think arcane is a bit more survivable though because it takes enemies out faster and you pop the arcane shield when needed, then go for air get the stamina regen when you crit, if you want condi maybe consider going earth after arcane instead of air.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

But your saying they would have to enforce the trinity, now lets say your right that part is true then where is the diversity in being able to choose more specific roles if one wants to? Sure you can build for more support like a tank or a healer but is it really needed?

It isn’t really needed that one go glass, either. Perhaps you meant desired by meta players? If so, you should look at the concept of meta. It’s the build believed to be best — whether it is actually best or not. That means, by definition, that the only diversity in meta play is that enforced by the content. If the content requires a tank or healer, there will only be one best tank/healer build, per profession anyway. there will be one DPS build. There can only be one best.

No it isnt since everyone goes bserker, you can balance it in such a way where it can be needed but still an option, of course im not saying anet should drop everything and focus on this but its certainly something they may be able to change in the future.

No, you can’t balance it that way and affect the meta. Needed in these sense of “can’t do without” and “optional” are not compatible. Need in the sense of wanted, well , that’s possible now as long as you don’t care what other people think. In most of the game’s content, you can go bunker or healer and contribute, it’s just that your contribution won’t be valued by random people on the internet.

The point is you can sit there and say the holy trinity is bad since its not the intentional design but then again you cant claim there is real build diversity either which is also something the design was trying to do, which give players more variety of ways to play. So if everyone is going beserker and not using these other optional builds then the diversity just isnt there due to the meta of beserker.

Yes, I can and am claiming there is real build diversity. I can build my character as I see fit, in ways that are pleasing to me. I can use those builds to do anything I want in the game with varying degrees of success except I can’t be accepted by groups that don’t want that build. So what do I do? Well, I get off my dead kitten and find people that think like I do, and we play the way we want to. If “real” diversity is being accepted by meta groups then you will never find real diversity in an MMO unless the content enforce a particular type of build. Meta groups will never accept any non-optimum build that someone likes. Also, as I said above, for any role that is deemed necessary, there will be one build that is acceptable.

Typically, what’s behind most of these discussions is the desire to play a build you like, and to get into any group, and to be equally effective as other builds. This is a pipe dream. The only way to do that would to have all builds balanced so they are all equivalent. What can be done is to provide content that allows different builds to shine, such as with tanks/healers in raids, or mobs like Husks who are more susceptible to condi than direct damage.

Other responses above in italics.

Ok but we aren’t talking about that, of course you can find people to do this with but realistically the majority don’t and people who want something different won’t always be available when you are, so it still is an issue for many. As far as builds being effective they can be in different ways if you played other mmorpgs you should know it’s hardly a pipe dream and im not saying all builds.

DeceiverX.8361:

Ryou.2398:

DeceiverX.8361:

People fail to realize that the trinity is literally the same as a gear check for an all-zerk meta, just that it requires different stats.

It’s not that other sets are weak; actually, stat-per-stat, DPS is the least efficient way to play the game, but as a compromise, it’s the most time-efficient if clears are done skillfully. There was literally a guy who soloed Arah on a Magi’s warrior and never dodged once, even on Lupi. The durable gear let him literally AFK/facetank the fight. It took well over an hour, but he did it.

To get more sets used, the fights need to simply be more challenging. Not through one-shot mechanics or anything, because that’s just another gear check. But through making the fights themselves more difficult on the conceptual level, require more thought from the party, and need more teamwork.

People will always pursue the most time-efficient option to beat the game. The pursuit of efficiency is human nature. Why waste time on things you don’t need to? There are only so many hours in a day, so people want to cram as much accomplishment into their time as possible, especially those who work and have families or have little time to play. A trinity does nothing to change this philosophy. All it does is shift it to require certain people of certain roles to meet certain requirements, rather than just being a free-for-all of people being told to bring DPS to make it go by faster.

People who usually play mmorpgs or rpgs in general are people who like to spend time with the game and content, besides if gaming is that much of a waste of time then why game at all? Rushing through content asap is not human nature, thats just people who dont know patience or refuse to smell the flowers. For the most part mmorpgs are meant to take time when you do group content and such.

I have never seen an mmorpg with so many people who prefer to cheese through things doing the same exact tactics over and over. Now im not blaming the design but im blaming the community.

Your blame is misguided, though. That’s just the thing. Claiming a trinity would solve anything is naive and frankly, not in line with principles of modern game design. It’s actually straight-up contradictory to what’s going on here. Maybe you’re new around here. It’s also important to note that ANet has done very little to uphold interest in its PvE. The PvE content in the core game hasn’t changed at all since somewhere around 2013, and dungeons and fractals (and menial, repetitive tasks )were/are the best way to make cash for the layman.

We games play for fun Fun isn’t always productive, and thus, can be argued as a waste of time from a harshly objective point of view. Human nature is to inspect, invent, and improve, and to make menial tasks more efficient. I can speak for most people in that doing the exact same exact thing every single day, over and over, with next to no variation and expecting the same outcome, without looking to make the task more efficient, is not fun. That’s a very boring and truthfully soul-wearing job in most cases, and even that isn’t as scripted and similar in experience.

So we rush through the PvE content because PvE doesn’t change. It’s fun to take your time the first few tries. After a few years of doing the same thing every day for money, it gets real old, real fast. It becomes menial. And since it’s human nature to make menial tasks more efficient, people did. And then people who have been doing those menial tasks forever and were extremely bored of them started setting the bar at that efficiency.

The trinity is in no way different; you look for X number of tanks, Y number of DPS, and Z healers. You look for only certain professions who have optimal DPS, durability, and healing capabilities to facilitate the run. And then you check gear to make sure everyone can do the content, or kick the people who hold the group back. The trinity itself is very much a raw, hard mold on how to efficiently play the game in a specific matter of efficiency. And the requirements and expectations will perpetually rise as more people make the menial tasks performed by this trinity – this optimization – even further menial. You see, the berserker-only runs of dungeons are identical in philosophy; a non-berserker group could do the content, just as maybe taking another tank or another healer or maybe a party of DPS in a trinity-based game, but it’d be slower or subject to the individuals themselves over-performing at the expectation. It’s that the routine runs are indeed routine, and so people wish to avoid spending an excess of time on them.

There’s a reason why the grindy korean games that come to the western market all fail. It’s because the grind starts immediately, never ends, and frankly, is meaningless. It’s not that people are cheesing through things so much as people want money and want it faster so they can enjoy the things they do. For many, especially WvW players, this means grinding through PvE as fast as possible so they can get the money needed to play WvW and get back to the format they enjoy.

The game was sold as one which featured no trinity and where all content could be done by all players of all builds. The entire point was to get rid of the trinity, because that system is old, dated, and frankly, not suitable for an action-based game. It also inhibits severely what the developers can do in the future for its classes. Going against that is going against the foundation GW2 was built on. People trying to change that are honestly better told to play a different game. If it’s not the formula for success, then GW2 can fail and the lesson will be learned. If it has a market, it’s just not the game for those who want a trinity. Why? Because it wasn’t supposed to be made to be that way, and demanding such change is a slap in the face to the people who designed the game originally and to all of the players who have loyally supported that ideology so far.

Ok I feel your over explaining things here so I’m just going to reply to some key points, my blame iant misguided I’ve been playing mmprpgs for decades now so I have a really goos grasp in what goes on with these things, it isn’t human nature to do thing ls better when it is boring, your doing it because it is boring, nature has nothing to do with that. Korean grinders doesn’t even compare to to any western mmo I’ve played as far as grind goes so I don’t know why you even brought that up.

The reason I mentioned the taking time through content is because regardless of how much faster it is if your using the same builds, tactics and running the same content over and over its still going to be boring, if there was more room for roles and using diff tactics then it would be more fun. Hence the op made this topic well part of the reason anyways.

Your point on the holy Trinity is odd, people always assume it’s thebholoy trinity when it’s not, of you played certain mmorpgs then you would know there are a ton of roles that can be designed in an mmorpg it goes well beyond the simple holy trinity, having multiple classes and multiple roles adda tons of diversity in itself. Just look at the Mesmer its a utility class they have a role and a big one at that .

Anyways none of that changes the fact that it could be an option to have roles especially when we already have classes that can build fof those roles, if everyone is the same then no one is unique and just a clone of each other and that becomes stale.

Shadelang.3012:

@Ryou GS is in an intresting place as far as PvE goes. If power reaper was meta gs and dagger would probably see equal use. The gs rotation is more involved than the dagger rotation (dagger is litteraly just auto attacking) but the GS rotation does similar damage (believe dagger is SLIGHTLY ahead). Below 50% however GS does more damage than dagger spam due to grave digger having 0 coolown. So its very useful for burning through the last half of bosses.

GS also provides an aoe blind field built in, vuln stacking if your party is low on vuln generation, and a multi target hard cc/pull that also chills (chilled targets deal less damage to a reaper).

Sweet thanks for the info, also how is axe doing? It seems kind of melee like to.

DeceiverX.8361:

People fail to realize that the trinity is literally the same as a gear check for an all-zerk meta, just that it requires different stats.

It’s not that other sets are weak; actually, stat-per-stat, DPS is the least efficient way to play the game, but as a compromise, it’s the most time-efficient if clears are done skillfully. There was literally a guy who soloed Arah on a Magi’s warrior and never dodged once, even on Lupi. The durable gear let him literally AFK/facetank the fight. It took well over an hour, but he did it.

To get more sets used, the fights need to simply be more challenging. Not through one-shot mechanics or anything, because that’s just another gear check. But through making the fights themselves more difficult on the conceptual level, require more thought from the party, and need more teamwork.

People will always pursue the most time-efficient option to beat the game. The pursuit of efficiency is human nature. Why waste time on things you don’t need to? There are only so many hours in a day, so people want to cram as much accomplishment into their time as possible, especially those who work and have families or have little time to play. A trinity does nothing to change this philosophy. All it does is shift it to require certain people of certain roles to meet certain requirements, rather than just being a free-for-all of people being told to bring DPS to make it go by faster.

People who usually play mmorpgs or rpgs in general are people who like to spend time with the game and content, besides if gaming is that much of a waste of time then why game at all? Rushing through content asap is not human nature, thats just people who dont know patience or refuse to smell the flowers. For the most part mmorpgs are meant to take time when you do group content and such.

I have never seen an mmorpg with so many people who prefer to cheese through things doing the same exact tactics over and over. Now im not blaming the design but im blaming the community.

Sartharina.3542:

Ryou.2398:

you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

No you don’t. Weapons, traits, skills, runes, and sigils all vary wildly even within the same gear stat set.

Even now, there’s all sorts of build diversity. Vipers and Sinister show up on condi builds. In WvW, all sorts of gear is viable. A lot of people put some combination of toughness/vitality/healing power on trinkets.

Yes you do, and im talking about gear, and as far as builds go everyone is shohorned into dps specs partly because of the beserker meta mentality, so again you pretty much know what build your going to use, and choosing between condi and beserker is hardly a variety in choice. And I never said you cannot use that gear but because of the design and peoples mentality for the most part it isnt accepted, so if you went for a tanky build others would need to compinsate to that build to an extent.

fishball.7204:

Mea.5491:

When players’ mentality changes and they realize that DPS is not everything. In other words: never.

DPS isn’t everything that’s why people use different utilities/traits in raids that aren’t always max DPS.

It’s all about HOW MUCH DPS you can put out while staying alive. In some cases, you don’t need any survivability and can max DPS. In other cases, you need healers or some level of sustain.

As for open world, half the people standing there aren’t in zerk or vipers. It’s pretty obvious they are running subpar builds, subpar stats and so on but it’s open world so they probably prefer doing their own thing which is fine. I never run PS/EA on my warrior when open world and run 25% move speed disc line even though it’s bad for DPS.

Even in dungeons nowadays nobody really cares what you run as long as your build is some what good enough to provide for the team. Such as, warriors should provide might, revs should provide some boons, chronos quickness etc. You could take a full magi healing druid into fractals and nobody would mind (just from my experience).

I’ll also add that when I did trio fracs, we would take a cleric guardian to tank and heal since it was far easier with it than having full zerk. A lot of builds are viable it just depends what you want to do.

But thats kind of the point others are trying to make, if a guardian can specialize in keeping others alive then why not? Why does everyone have to self survival when other classes can do it for you for people that enjoy that playstyle?

Shadelang.3012:

GS reaper is actually more common than youd think. However it isn’t the most optimal. GS is more common in WvW and PvE however than PvP.

The valk reaper build for PvE for example TYPICALLY makes use of the GS though which way of use is more optimal has been up for debate. The weapon itself is solid.

In PvP the gs is in an interesting place. its incredibly dangerous…when it hits. GS attacks are slow meaning they are quite easy to dodge. So any build using GS wants to have a faster weapon option (reaper shroud,dagger, and axe) for example to swap to.. saving GS for either massive hits or when you want to FORCE someone to waste their dodges because you know they dont have anything left besides those. Which means giving up staff which is a prominent untility weapon in the common CONDI reaper build.

However by giving up staff a GS reaper gets some options the condi reaper typically doesn’t get to have. Whether that is a plus though for you is gonna be dependent on what playstyle you develop into.

As for how the reaper plays. The battle mage style might be more accurate on a power mesmer build. Which features the quick cast style that battle mage players in other rpgs might be more used to.

Reaper builds are more methodical. Based more on the concept of oppressing your opponent and taking away their strengths one by one. Bringing the opponent down to a level where you have the advantage so to speak. Its a turtle that makes everyone else around it smaller turtles which it then proceeds to smack in the face either by repeated condi applications or a few heavy hits in the nads.

Reaper has ALOT of chill. Your going to get all the chill you want. Minions can be applied to reaper builds but at the standard level of play aren’t required anywhere. You can be effective without them.

Reaper has some flashy effects. But they are often in darker colors or in flashes of white ice. Youd be surprised how massive some of hte reapers animations actually are when you stop and take a look at them all. Their just so muted people often dont notice them compared to the fiery walls of explosions from insert random ele #357.

Interesting, however I disagree with the mesmer stuff ive tried one for a bit, and it just doesnt offer enough dps to really be a melee/casting style, and only a few melee abilities. Anyways im kind of confused in what you are saying, are you saying gs is good for pve then?

I just tried it out in the pvp area and it seemed cool, I love the concept of a battlemage style of gameplay but im not sure if this is how it plays, im just not sure if I can get into all the green and etc, I usually like flashy effects, the minions arent really my thing, the shadow fiend is cool though. It seems necro has ice stuff? Is there allot of ice abilities? I really do enjoy ice.

Anyways I was wondering is it viable? Will I be able to use the gs and reaper stuff frequently?

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet did a good job of providing a role system that is tied to a variety of profession choices, trait choices, weapon choices and stat choices. The thing they could not provide was a new mindset for players who either don’t see or discount all of that because they define diversity only in terms of the classic static roles and at the same time insist that gear stats have to match role choice. The only way to promote that kind of diversity would be to scrap the current game design and retool the game as an old-style trinity MMO.

The OP claims he would like to play a Guardian Healer/Tank or a tank-like warrior with some damage. GW2 absolutely allows him to do so. Moreover, the content allows him to do so, successfully, in dungeons or persistent PvE.

I can’t say with certainty that his choices would fly in raids, but then raids are based on more tightly defined roles in the first place. By definition, a meta build is that which is perceived best by players. There’s no diversity within the meta, except that enforced by defined, required roles. The same applies to meta-preference dungeon runs.

What can be done, ANet has tried. They’ve made condi viable. They’ve changed aggro mechanics (at least in HoT) so that aggro prioritizes toughness more. They’ve made mobs more difficult. They’ve used unavoidable damage, melee hate and other mechanics to get people to stop doing the exact same things with the exact same builds every time. No doubt they’ll do more of this type of design going forward. They may even think of new ways to shake players up.

But your saying they would have to enforce the trinity, now lets say your right that part is true then where is the diversity in being able to choose more specific roles if one wants to? Sure you can build for more support like a tank or a healer but is it really needed? No it isnt since everyone goes bserker, you can balance it in such a way where it can be needed but still an option, of course im not saying anet should drop everything and focus on this but its certainly something they may be able to change in the future.

The point is you can sit there and say the holy trinity is bad since its not the intentional design but then again you cant claim there is real build diversity either which is also something the design was trying to do, which give players more variety of ways to play. So if everyone is going beserker and not using these other optional builds then the diversity just isnt there due to the meta of beserker.

maniamsmart.7981:

Let’s Talk Build Diversity

With the multitude of stat sets in the game, everyone still only runs Berserker in PVE. I’d love to see some other stats actually become more viable. I’d love to build a Guardian Healer and Tank, or a Warrior Tank with some damage, or any sort of combinations, but there just isn’t a place for that in the game (excluding raids of course).

The other day I was gearing up my Warrior, and one my friends told me that I should go get some Soldier’s or Knight’s gear, but let’s be real, you really only need Berserker’s. Any group running full Zerk in a dungeon will be quicker at completing it then a group without full Zerk, which sucks, because it encourages everyone to build Zerk. This got me thinking and into a discussion where I thought about why people only run Zerker gear, and here’s what I came up with (there’s probably more, but these stood out).

The Rally System
Because you can just build pure damage, as long as you or someone near you kills the mob, you come back with a substantial amount of health. This allows players to play reckless and go all in without much penalty. I feel like the system needs to be revamped, at least in raids it’s a bit better and you can’t just go full DPS and mindlessly mash your keyboard hoping to rally.

Healing Power Is Broken
Why does it not scale with revive speed? This would encourage people to actually perhaps build it more; maybe allow it to have faster revive speed, or instant revive (maybe too OP, but you’re sacrificing damage for healing so why not?). In general healing power builds don’t feel rewarding because you don’t really ever have an idea of how much you really ARE helping the team or how much you really ARE making an impact. You just see a ton of green numbers.

Out of Combat Healing
Even if you run past a ton of mobs, you won’t die anyway because once out of combat your health shoots up anyway. And even if you do die, then you can have enough power probably to kill and just rally again. Why not make food a requirement to health regen, or having to go near a camp, or something. That would be more interesting IMO, and would require people to build a bit different maybe?

No Need for Threat Control, So No Tanks
The PVE content is already easy, and even if it wasn’t we don’t any major threat control abilities where we can pull mob aggro on the fly whenever we want. And there isn’t a need to even because everything dies so quickly. That’s why we see tanks only really needed in raids, because they CAN control the threat and those bosses don’t die instantly.

Those are just my thoughts and opinions, I may be wrong, but let me know yours. I’ve done a video on this topic where I talk a bit more in depth about the topic with more examples below if you’re interested:
https://youtu.be/zJRfWlgN8BU

I agree 100 percent, ive known this was an issue since I got back into the game, regardless of what people like this is an rpg and gear should be diverse there is no uniqueness if anyone is using the exact same freaken gear, you can argue all day but it doesnt mean it is fun at all, you know exactly what build your going to be doing regardless because of the gear.

Here we go, you just opened another pandoras box thread lol. And to answer your question its hardly raid centric people just think it is because thats what they where recently working on, raids are optional.