Guild Wars 2

Laraley.7695:

Shaogin.2679:

Sure, Anet MMM isn’t the best, but your examples here are the player base’s fault, not Anet’s. If one team was insanely more skilled….sure. But class distribution, well everyone should stop playing the same class. ;P

Please stop acting like there are only 10 people in the queue. There might be lots rangers and thieves, but there are also lots of other professions. While it might be a bit on the players’ side, this is a wonderful example of matchmaking failing again.

And what if those players playing these other professions just aren’t a good match due to having much more/less skill then you and the others in your match? Or maybe there really aren’t as many people in the queue as you like to think? Point is, matching what players are in the queue based on the profession they are playing when it is already seemingly difficult to match teams of equal skill level, is just silly. And I’m pretty sure Anet has already commented about not focusing on profession be a factor in the match-making process. Don’t solo queue and then complain because you got stuck with too many thieves/rangers/whatever. Complain because you were matched against a team so much better than yours that you stood no chance.

He’s been playing for over a year, it’s a troll thread, please stop guys.

Sure, Anet MMM isn’t the best, but your examples here are the player base’s fault, not Anet’s. If one team was insanely more skilled….sure. But class distribution, well everyone should stop playing the same class. ;P

At this point I feel the best solution is to just redesign the turrets to work as short duration turrets immune to damage and reduce the cooldowns a bit to match the utility they bring.

Are.1326:

Shaogin.2679:

The only real benefit to using Lyssa while cc’d as opposed to any other stun break or instant skill is the ability to break fear.

At the moment yes, but taunt will also be clensable with condi removal.

Hadn’t considered Taunt. But again, just don’t see this being an issue. Taunt=reverse fear. Same thing, different condition.

I used to care about turrets being nerfed the way the did. Though I did not play a Turret Engineer (P/P Condi), I thought surely Anet would not just hastily nerf them into oblivion with no testing and then just forget about them. But since then I’ve remembered how other AI builds were treated (MM Necro, Spirit Ranger) and realized this is it. The build is gone, and Anet has literally zero intentions whatsoever of attempting to implement any sort of balance for these AI builds.

What is really sad though is you can still make a MM Necro or Spirit Ranger work, but there is no hope for the Turret Engi. I know Gern will go everywhere stating turrets don’t die easily as everyone says they do and they still have uses. I can guarantee on my P/P Engi I can destroy any turret you place in seconds and decimate any turret build I encounter, even pre-nerf.

The fact is, turrets in their current state provide very little utility for for the cooldowns they currently have. Either the utility provided or the cooldown must change or they will remain useless utilities only ever taken by those that are bored of being always limited to law of, “THOU ENGI MUST TAKE TWO KITS AND ONE ELIXIR/GADGET TO BE OPTIMAL!”

Let me very clear on one thing though, the old Turret Engi was incredibly easy to play and created a bad environment in PvP, so please let’s stop defending that particular build. However, anyone without an unbiased hate towards AI or incapacitating fear of the return of the old Turret Engi can see that the way this nerf was implemented and then just forgotten was wrong. This was not a balancing nerf, this was taking the easy road and completely removing a build and consequently and entire line of utilities.

On a side note, great article OP.

RabbitUp.8294:

Shaogin.2679:

It still isn’t going to be a big enough of an issue to warrant changes on the runes, especially when it just hurts the other professions using them for no reason. And like I said, I really don’t see a cooldown being implemented on the kit.

So, will it be more effective for an Engineer? Of course, just like the “on weapon swap” runes are. Will it be game-breaking or OP? No, it’s not really worth all the concern.

I don’t necessarily think there’s a need for rune changes. The most abusable aspect will be the fact that kits activate instantly, making Lyssa usable while cc’d, although Mortar could be the exception, like Basilisk is right now.

The only real benefit to using Lyssa while cc’d as opposed to any other stun break or instant skill is the ability to break fear.

RabbitUp.8294:

Shaogin.2679:

Also, you have to understand that we already have elites in the game that can proc rune effects as soon as they come off cooldown every time. So, this is really nothing new, no reason at all to think they’d change runesets that proc off elites.

There’s only one, Basilisk Venom, which has 40 second cooldown, or 32 when traited, so even that cannot proc Krait instantly, although it comes close.

Entangle, Signet of Rage and Summon Flesh Golem (60s/48s) can proc Lyssa often enough, but not Krait.

Still, all of the above could require you using your elite at inopportune times, like when running away, or wasting the rune effect when engaging, like with Entangle or Venom. Mortar, on the other hand, doesn’t suffer from these problems.

It still isn’t going to be a big enough of an issue to warrant changes on the runes, especially when it just hurts the other professions using them for no reason. And like I said, I really don’t see a cooldown being implemented on the kit.

So, will it be more effective for an Engineer? Of course, just like the “on weapon swap” runes are. Will it be game-breaking or OP? No, it’s not really worth all the concern.

Drakan.3401:

This would be great, and I understand there is a cool down on the rune effect , but I can’t imagine our elite kit won’t have a cool down on it at all. I guess it depends on if it does and how long it could be. Even if they just make the 1-5 skills have a CD I doubt they will allow runes with on elite activation to stand.

Also, you have to understand that we already have elites in the game that can proc rune effects as soon as they come off cooldown every time. So, this is really nothing new, no reason at all to think they’d change runesets that proc off elites.

Drakan.3401:

This would be great, and I understand there is a cool down on the rune effect , but I can’t imagine our elite kit won’t have a cool down on it at all. I guess it depends on if it does and how long it could be.

Guarantee you the cooldowns will be on the skills within the kit, not the kit itself.

I’m also kind of curious if Anet has some plan with turrets themselves. I’m sure we all saw the video of the Hammer Engineer with the flying turrets surrounding him.

Anymras.5729:

Shaogin.2679:

It’s true. I still se people running turret engis, only now it’s just said. I grenade their turrets, they die, then it’s me and an poor engi trying to survive with nothing but his rifle. Lol

Ok so it’s kinda funny too. Not sure why some people are still hanging on to this build.

It’s almost as if they might genuinely like the build for one reason or another. Maybe they just really like turrets.

You’d have to genuinely love turrets or just be clinging to hope to play a turret build in it’s current state. It’s like punishing yourself in PvP for no reason.

It’s true. I still se people running turret engis, only now it’s just said. I grenade their turrets, they die, then it’s me and an poor engi trying to survive with nothing but his rifle. Lol

Ok so it’s kinda funny too. Not sure why some people are still hanging on to this build.

Let’s get back on track please. It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks of the old turret engi, or whether you like or dislike ai. Please continue that conversation in one of the many threads already doing so.

This is about an entire line of utilities being hit too hard by the nerf, to the point where they are now innefective. Under no circumstances do I think the nerf should be undone nor do I encourage ai builds. But fact is, these utilities exist, and there is no reason for them to be left in a useless state. Some great suggestions have been made to fix this without bringing back the dreaded turret engi, and so feedback on these suggestions or suggestions of your own are what we are looking for.

insanemaniac.2456:

-snip- more ai hate unrelated to thread -snip-

runeblade.7514:

Shaogin.2679:

runeblade.7514:

My fix is to give Turrets a significantly low duration, Somewhere around 5 seconds. Then make it stronger, and make it invulnerable.

• This will make it PvE/WvW friendly.
• This will make it great for mixed builds.
• Fortified turret will make it possible to have a full turret build.

More here.

This will remove the passive playstyle that many people dislike.

I’ve got to say, this is the best alternate solution I have seen yet. The only downside being is that it would require an extensive rework of most of the turret traits, which I do not see Anet committing to. However, this is possibly one of the best things they could do for turrets. Thank you, I’ll follow you on your linked thread.

I don’t see many extensive rework to be that complicated.

• Turret last 5 seconds. Solution: reduce duration from 5 minutes to 5 seconds. Turrets already blow up when duration ends.
• Invulnerability- Give turrets the invulnerability buff
• Some Turrets projectile animation just need to be changed. But not extensive enough to not do it.

Changing the turrets would be easy sure, I’m referring to the traits.

Actually, I retract my statement. Looking at the new traits for HoT, those traits would still work with this new proposed design. Maybe some minor tweaking to Experimental Turrets, but overall fine. I’ll add it to my list of proposed changes.

ArrDee.2573:

The change is done! They will never revert it! If they expand upon it, it will be literally years so don’t get your hopes up! It’s over so there’s no use crying about it! If this came as a surprise for anyone, well this is Anet’s trademark! There’s even a meme for it!

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Smiter's_Boon_

“This skill is considered by most to be the paramount example of a nerf and thus, has given rise to a nickname known as Smiter’s Booning (or simply S-booning) or simply “booned.” (example- “The skill got booned!”) It is most often used when players cry out for the nerf of a particular problematic skill or when a skill has been made so underpowered it becomes unplayable!"

“We recognize that the changes to this skill will essentially remove it from play. In the future, we may consider whether or not there is an incarnation of this skill that would be viable but balanced. For now, we do not expect it to see serious use.”

That was 7 years ago and Smiter’s Boon hasn’t changed! They stopped working on GW1 so it will never change! If you enjoyed playing turrets, just remember that playing a viable rendition of a turret build is but a dream! So sayeth Arenanet, destroyer of builds!

Now excuse me I have to vomit from defending turret Engis! Wahoo! Bye frands!

Aw, come on Vee Wee, you know you love those turret guys. ;P

But yeah, pretty said that Anet has nerfed them to the point where even you have come out in support of them. lol

Shadelang.3012:

What started off as “Make them require more active play” turned into “It doesn’t have the right to exist!”

I feel ya here, and this is what bothers me the most here. Due to the Turret build and variations of it having ever existed, players seem to have formed a mob dedicated to making sure that turrets are never again a viable utility option.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

The only way to balance them that comes to my mind, is by balancing the repair effect of toolkit. So turreteers have to make discisions, like placing turrets on the node to hold it while repairing, or place them outside for better sustain, with the drawback to leave the node for repairing them. If this would be balanced in a proper way, i could think of turrets beeing a usefull and fun way to play.

The only problem I see with this is that I’ve always seen the Toolkit as a way to repair turrets outside of combat. The Toolkit repair effects have never been worthwhile for sustaining a turret in combat, especially now, and to buff the repair effect would just have the Engineer camping on top of his turrets all the time. Just seems like it would be an ineffective and boring play style.

Frightlight.3796:

Heres an idea
1: Turrets are now duration based 10-20 sec
2: Turrets can now crit
3: Turrets will channel constant attacks (numbers can be adjusted)
4: Overcharging will create a large blast and reduce the cd of the turret by 25% no blast finisher as well as an effect based on the turret type
5: Detonating a turret is still a blast finisher but will not reduce cd
6: Picking up a turret removed

I don’t know, this seems like it would just create another lazy play style for the Engineer again. Low-risk high-reward type deal.

insanemaniac.2456:

you didnt debunk anything. youre just deluding yourself — you think youre fighting a player and not a player and his ai just because you suggest making his ai come back faster if you decide to look at the ai funny. its the same old kitten with a little more risk and a little higher skillcap when the play patterns are to blame as much as the noskill. ai isnt fun to fight against when its strong. thats what pve is for. not pvp.

as i said, i hope for a complete overhaul in the future. i dont like having 2 bad sets of utilities.

I’m sorry but you obviously have a deep hatred for any AI at all that is preventing you from legitimately contributing to this discussion. At this point it is going to be a waste of my time to continue this discussion with you.

runeblade.7514:

My fix is to give Turrets a significantly low duration, Somewhere around 5 seconds. Then make it stronger, and make it invulnerable.

• This will make it PvE/WvW friendly.
• This will make it great for mixed builds.
• Fortified turret will make it possible to have a full turret build.

More here.

This will remove the passive playstyle that many people dislike.

I’ve got to say, this is the best alternate solution I have seen yet. The only downside being is that it would require an extensive rework of most of the turret traits, which I do not see Anet committing to. However, this is possibly one of the best things they could do for turrets. Thank you, I’ll follow you on your linked thread.

naphack.9346:

-snip-

I’m sorry guys, you’ll have to excuse naphack. Though he will on occasion bring up decent points about Celestial builds, everything he says literally stems from his hatred of the Celestial Amulet, so he goes a bit overboard on that subject sometime. ;P

insanemaniac.2456:

Shaogin.2679:

insanemaniac.2456:

Shaogin.2679:

If you want to discuss whether AI is good or bad please do so elsewhere. This discussion is limited to the balance of Engineer’s utility turrets.

…
ai is fundamentally intertwined with the balance of turrets.

o.o;

But this isn’t about whether you think it should exist or not and where it should or shouldn’t exist. It does exist. This thread is simply to discuss fixing something that is broken, but not to the extent to where turret engis will be a thing again. Please at least take the time to read the original post before posting your replies.

your OP is pretty much garbo. i realized that halfway through the thread proposing the changes, when i asked if there would be some kind of hit point compensation for turrets suddenly taking 50% more power damage and unbalanced amounts of condi damage. i thought a little about what i said and came to the conclusion that i dont want this build to be playable, because its unfun to play against. so i stopped looking for some kind of response that maybe anet wouldnt just nuke the build.

you dont have to think like me, but do you like to fight against turret engis? or were you always playing one, and just pinballing each other when you fought against one (cuz that sounds kinda fun)?

i hope for a complete overhaul in the future. and not some stopgap measure thats likely to bring back cancerous play patterns, except a little weaker.

The Turret Engineer can’t exist if his turrets are too easy to destroy, because his turrets need to stay out to do what they do. So increasing hit points or turret survival is bad and goes directly against what this last patch accomplished.

But what of those that do not play turret Engineers. Are we supposed to just allow an entire line of utility choices go to waste just because we are terrified of the thought of a Turret Engineer existing again? Are we really going to let fear and irrational decisions govern the balance is dished out?

Increasing the cooldown reduction provided when a Turret is picked up means that nothing changes for those Engineers that leave their turrets out and ignore them. But for the Engineer that monitors his turret’s health (and again you can kill 1 in seconds) and times it’s use wisely, he might be able to actually make use of the turret, even as a standalone utility in a non-turret build.

You won’t be fighting AI, you’ll be fighting the Engineer making active decisions. It can be countered with a simple CC followed by auto-attacking the turret for 2 seconds to destroy it before the Engineer can get back in range to pick it up, thus placing the turret back on that full 20-50 second cooldown.

This change encourages more active play, makes turrets a more viable option for a utility slot without bringing back the turret engi, and it can be easily countered.

So, having debunked all your points, can you see that this isn’t going to cause a turret engi cancer relapse? I mean really, the only comments i’ve seen that are against this proposal so far normally are along the lines of “I hate turret engineer so, no” and seem to want to keep turrets in an unplayable state simply out of spite.

And again, no, I play a Static Discharge Engineer. Do you really think I had a good time fighting Turret Engineers. But boy, it was satisfying to kill one.

insanemaniac.2456:

Shaogin.2679:

If you want to discuss whether AI is good or bad please do so elsewhere. This discussion is limited to the balance of Engineer’s utility turrets.

…
ai is fundamentally intertwined with the balance of turrets.

o.o;

But this isn’t about whether you think it should exist or not and where it should or shouldn’t exist. It does exist. This thread is simply to discuss fixing something that is broken, but not to the extent to where turret engis will be a thing again. Please at least take the time to read the original post before posting your replies.

Zoso.8279:

I think Josh said they would be playing around with letting turrets get boons applied to them but they were watching how it all played out 1st. Ill post the link where I read this info. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Proposed-Changes-for-Engineer-Turrets/page/14#post5020647

Yeah I saw that. I’m just not sure it would solve much. If anything it could make turrets survive a bit longer. But if turrets survive long, then nerf=pointless and we’re back to people complaining. I don’t know, what do you think?

Cynz.9437:

pvp = player vs player not player vs pet

i don’t think that passive builds should be promoted in pvp (that includes turret engis); it doesn’t do any good to pvp community because
- people who play turret build have no motivation to improve
- people who play against turrets just have extremely frustrating experience due to engi mechanics and how absurdly rewarding the build is if you take input into account

i am all up for diversity but i think the focus should be somewhere else than pets and passive gameplay

If you want to discuss whether AI is good or bad please do so elsewhere. This discussion is limited to the balance of Engineer’s utility turrets.

insanemaniac.2456:

it isnt just “biased personal opinion” when we have threads by different people pop up every single day with the same qq about how turrets arent fun to fight against. it isnt just “biased personal opinion” when tournament organizers start banning a build because it doesnt properly represent the skill that the organizers feel the competitors should display, and entrants dont complain.

if all you wanna do with a thread title like this is bait people into saying “no turrets got what was coming” so you can report them for being off topic, this thread might as well be locked.

Did you read the original post at all or jump down to the bottom and decided to derail the thread with an argument that is completely off topic?

Yes, nobody liked the pre-nerf Turret Engineer. Yes, this nerf has destroyed Turret Engineer, and for that everyone is happy. Yes, this nerf also obliterated an entire line of Utilities, and for that there has been much controversy.

However, this discussion is soley to discuss the options of making turret utilities somewhat worth taking in a build without reincarnating the Turret Engineer or going into extensive discussions on how to completely rework / replace turret utilities.

And yes, making comments about how you don’t want turrets to ever be balanced or useful because you hate them and they were cheesy and you were traumatized is the very definition of a biased personal opinion that detracts from this constructive conversation. The fact that so many people do that on these forums does not make it any less biased. Sorry.

glock.6590:

A braindead build should not be viable. I suggeest they just replace the turrets with something else instead of just being there as useless utilities.

No matter how u balance them, the AI build always reward ultimate passive play. AI builds should not be viable in PvP unless COMPLETLY reworked . And even if they rework them, u shouldnt be able to take the tankiest amulet and put decent damage out.

I’m not sure if you took the time to actually read my post. If you had, you’d notice the suggestion is to make turrets a utility worth taking, without returning the Turret Engi to it’s previous “braindead” state. You’d also notice that I have acknowledge turrets need a complete rework as this is not meant to be a final solution, but rather a simple fix much like the the intended fix that destroyed the turrets. Please try to be a little more constructive in future post and let’s focus a bit more on the topic being discussed here rather than AI in general and long term drastic changes.

Please try to stay on topic and provide constructive feedback devoid of biased personal opinions. Those that have violated these requests have been likewise reported.

Also, for the record, I never farm PvP ladder since it holds no meanings nor rewards and I play a Static Discharge Engineer. Sorry if I have burst anyone’s bubble. :-/

Kharr.5746:

Here’s the thing….

We can use toolbelt skills —> deploy turrets --> overcharge + pick-up/detonate, repeat. If we pick up our turrets, they have a 25% reduced cooldown. You end up cycling through 3 types of skills: toolbelt, deploy, overcharge.

The cooldowns are long on individual skills because you’re not supposed to drop your turrets and stop paying attention to them, nor are you supposed to just use the toolbelt skills without ever deploying the turrets.

If you’re finding that your turrets are dying too quickly (I’m not), stop putting them in the middle of the capture point (except for thumper, which tanks just fine). You can also use the Deployable Turrets trait to put turrets in a wide radius around the capture point/put them on ledges, etc with zero effort. You don’t even need metal plating or fortified turret traits since no one will run around killing 3+ turrets while you attack them. You can also leave turrets on point and melee with toolkit to both repair and dps in melee.

Edit: After some thought, I like the OPs ideas, but I think they might be a tad OP, especially with Healing Turret.

As for the frailty of the turrets, I can guarantee you that I can eliminate any turret you place in any location in a matter of seconds from 1500 range with my Grenade Kit. The only situation in which turrets now survive is when bad players ignore them.

And I understand your concern of a cooldown reduction becoming OP, but I don’t feel as though that would necessarily be that case if only the cooldown on pick-up was reduced. Especially since this play style can be countered by CC. And of course as mentioned, I have no intentions of any of these changes being applied to Healing Turret nor Supply Crate.

So my proposal is to adjust turret cooldowns. Adjusting the cooldown of the turrets could make them worth taking as a utility for the overcharge effects at least. This is by no means a solution! This would however be a quick fix (Anet seems to like those) that could help remedy the destruction caused by their last quick fix. I remember reading they were also considering allowing boons to affect turrets, but honestly I feel any fix that allows the Engineer to go back to placing his turrets down and leaving them will just cause more outrage. With a cooldown reduction on turret skills, the Engineer could still use turrets effectively without allowing such a passive play style.

Now, my proposed cooldown reduction coul be implemented in a few ways…

• [Easiest Fix] Reduce the base cooldown of the turrets.
  This allows the Engineer bring his turret out more often and lessens the penalty of allowing his turret to be destroyed/detonated.

• [Better Fix] Give a greater cooldown reduction to turrets that are picked up.
  This could promote a more active and involved play style, punishing the Engineer for allowing his turrets to be destroyed or taking advantage of the Detonate effects, while rewarding him for monitoring the health of his turret and picking it back up before it is destroyed. This also provides more counter-play since the Engineer needs to be in melee range to pick his turret back up, and he can be cc’d away from it.

• [Optional Fix] Reduce the cooldowns of the turret Tool Belt abilities.
  This would give the Engineer access to more frequent use of his class mechanic while waiting on turret cooldowns, but this fix could yield minimal results and cause more issues due to certain traits tied to Tool Belt skills such as Adrenalin PumP and Static Discharge.

• [Best Fix – Proposed by Runeblade.7514] Give turrets a significantly low duration, somewhere around 5 seconds. Then make it stronger, and make it invulnerable.
  This suggestion allows turrets to work like turrets, though within a limited time frame. This will cause the turret to behave more like a normal utility, should be easier to balance, and find uses in all game modes without being OP.

So, tell me what you guys think. Sorry for the long post, but in many of the turret conversations I’ve seen I’ve noticed many people seriously lack knowledge of how Turret Engies, or Engineers in general, really work. I would like to hear whether these changes sound feasible or even necessary, or even if there are better ways to implement a simple quick fix solution. Just please do not go too far off topic with Turret changes. This thread is just focusing on a simple change much like the one implemented that caused all this damage.

To start, since turrets have never really had a place in PvE or WvW, we will limit the balance concerns of this conversation to PvP. Also please note that any changes suggested will not apply to Healing Turret or Supply Crate, as I feel even with the changes those skills are still in a decent spot.

Also, any attempt to derail this thread with derogatory comments will be reported and, hopefully, promptly removed.

Finally, please try to remain constructive when replying. I am looking for unbiased conversations that can be backed up by legitimate data and not personal opinions.

So, everyone seems to be in agreement that the Turret Engineer build needed to be nerfed in some way that prevented the Engineer from simply dropping turrets and spamming rifle attacks while achieving moderate results.

What was in disagreement was the way this nerf was implemented. However, we all know that Anet does not have a great track record for reverting nerfs, however bad they may be. Therefore, for the purpose of this discussion I am accepting the nerfs that were made and not expecting that to change anytime in the near future.

I am however, expecting Anet to implement a change to turrets to compensate for the severe damage that has been done. The damage I speak of, is of course the fact that now turrets can be destroyed within seconds of being deployed with no effort. This is no exaggeration and has been tested and confirmed multiple times by numerous people testing the effects of the changes. Some suggest a player now needs to simply “play smarter” and be more strategic with their turret locations. However, the simple fact is that no matter where you place the turret, it will die in seconds to nothing but ranged auto attack damage. This leaves the Engineer down another utility slot. To those that feel this is in line with other AI in the game, there are a few facts you need to consider first…

• Turrets can not move.
• Turrets can not receive boons at this time.
• Turrets can not critically hit another player.
• Turrets can not be healed outside of trait or Toolkit mechanics.
• Turrets take up a utility slot.*
• Turret cooldowns range anywhere from 20 to 50 seconds.
  *(Engineers rely heavily on their utility skills due to the fact that they lack a secondary weapon and their class mechanic is tied directly to which utility skills are chosen.)

So with this information, we can see that if an Engineer were to take 3 turrets as his utilities, an enemy could keep all 3 of his utilities on constant cooldown simply by taking a couple of seconds to auto attack the turret. This leaves the Engineer with 1 weapon and his Tool Belt skills. Those Tool Belt skills may consist of…

• Rumble
• Throw Napalm
• Surprise Shot
• Net Attack
• Rocket
  With the exception of Surprise Shot, all these skills have a base 35 to 40 second recharge, and mostly produce minimal effects.

With the current state turrets have been left in, they cannot survive if left out against any semi-competent player that knows how easy they are to destroy. This limits us to utilizing turrets much in the same way Healing Turret is currently utilized; placing the turret, overcharging, then either immediately detonating or picking the turret back up. However, the current cooldowns on our turrets are much too long for the benefits gained by using them in this manner.

mistsim.2748:

with turrets being vulnerable to crits and condi damage, simply buff their hp by like 30%. should be fine.

So nerf them so they take more damage and die faster, then in turn buff them until they can withstand said damage and survive longer again.

#Logic

Gern.2978:

If you are some oddball that liked the look of the hobosacks, well no fear! There is a backpiece for you! Remember the old backpiece you had an option to get just from creating an engineer? The Universal Multi-Tool pack is here to rescue you from ever looking cool! Yes with this old backpiece that no one used, you too can impress your hipster friends with how “ironic” your unpopular backpiece is!

Create a level 1 engineer today to get your Universal Mulit-Tool pack!

Hey! You can’t fool me! That’s not an Engineer! >.<

Loboling.5293:

I’m not saying they don’t suck, but I’m pointing out that the same people this build killed before are dying now… XD Obviously I had to change my build a bit to not rely so heavily on turrets. Otherwise, I’m using 5 turret traits, 2 turrets and 2 kits, elite supply drop. Pretty effective 1v1 for defending a node. Also, can assist team fights.

Yeah, it was never the build that killed them, it was their own inadequacy. I toyed around with it too, taking Rifle / Med Kit / Tool Kit / Rifle Turret / Rocket Turret / Supply Crate. The result, Supply Crate is destroyed insanely fast, but it is still good for a stun that drops bandages, which is basically what I used it for before anyways. Med Kit and Tool Kit are nice for that sustain and damage.

But most incredibly, when throwing my Rifle Turret and Rocket Turret on completely accessible ledges (tried placing them in trees and what not but they just never fired then), my enemies would sit there and try chasing me down and killing me while being completely oblivious to my turrets that are killing them. Despite the fact that they could destroy my turrets with a single ranged auto-attack or two, they just ignored them!

So yes, turrets will still kill the same morons they killed before, but will die in seconds against anyone with half a brain.

Siks.1978:

I wonder if the flamethrower (backpack?) or the elixir gun (backpack?) will get some improvements/tweaks.

Yes they are actually. If by improvements/tweaks you mean being removed.

witcher.3197:

Xillllix.3485:

It seems Anet doesn’t know how to balance classes

Turret was cancer. They cured the game of it, I don’t see the problem. For the risk/reward factor the turret build has it’s actually balanced now. Such a passive noskill build should never be even remotely viable.

Other players don’t like fighting turret engies because they are easy to play, so the proper level of response is to completely neuter an entire line of utilities, making them no longer a viable choice in any build in any game mode. Nobody is arguing whether or not turret engi was cancer, they are arguing that despite providing many ideas on how to tone down the turret build to make them more balanced, Anet instead went with the lazy route of making turrets so weak a simple sneeze could destroy them.

StickerHappy.8052:

All those majestic turret engie tears… Delicious…

Evidently, people defending turrets are turret engie mains..

Static Discharge Zerk Engi actually.

Manuhell.2759:

Manuhell.2759:

Saying they should “play smart” to overcome the nerf is simply idiotic, if not downright trolling….

And how many times in those “nerf turret engy” posts have the zealous defenders of the turret build rambled off about “outplaying” “play smart” or “out rotate!”

There is no sympathy here.

Exciton.8942:

Well, it might be an overkill but we are still better off w/o this spec than with it in terms of having fun.

Shylock.4653:

Shaogin.2679:

and no amount of “skill” will will be required to defeat a Turret Engi.

A build which requires no skill to play it can be beaten with no skill. Sounds quite balanced for me.

Again, this just adds to my point I made earlier….

Again, it reflects bad on Anet that the majority of players agreeing with these changes have nothing to contribute to this thread in support of the nerfs other than misinformed, biased, and often rude posts.

Post all the childish comments you want, but it’s plain to see that the nerfs to turrets was the wrong way to handle this.

Again, it reflects bad on Anet that the majority of players agreeing with these changes have nothing to contribute to this thread in support of the nerfs other than misinformed, biased, and often rude posts.

Post all the childish comments you want, but it’s plain to see that the nerfs to turrets was the wrong way to handle this.

Just be patient. I’m sure that once the HoT release date is announced, they’ll start rolling out a bunch of limited time sales up till the time HoT releases.

Xillllix.3485:

Face it, they didn’t try to balance turrets, they just took them out of the pvp game.

Not just the PvP game. They removed any possibility of Turrets ever being viable utility choices in any game mode.

It’s sad really. Nobody like Turret Engies. I always got great satisfaction out of killing them just for playing such a lazy build. But this nerf, this is just wrong. Not to mention, it didn’t just destroy the turret build, it destroyed and entire set of utilities for the Engineer. Turrets as an Engineer utility are now not worth taking in any build aside Rifle Turret in a Static Discharge build, and even that is just for the Tool Belt ability.

fixing page 2 glitch

Gern.2978:

Cut to eliminate the huge waste of space.

No one is arguing for Turret Engies to be an easy faceroll class. In fact Engineers themselves have been arguing that turrets need to be reworked to promote a more active play style. Turret Engies were easy to kill before, now they are a free kill. You have to realize one MAJOR factor now.

All Turrets can now be destroyed from range in a matter of seconds now. There is no amount of “skill” in this game that can prevent that from happening.

In case you’re still confused and feeling a little clueless, this means that in a turret build, you pull out a turret, place them in the most strategic locations possible, and one ranged pew pew later you are left standing there with no Utility skills at all.

So you say well run to another point. That sounds great, you can now be that Engi that is capable of dong nothing but attempting to run away all match while contributing absolutely nothing.

What’s even worse is, sure, Turret Engies are destroyed and no longer exist as a viable PvP build, but now any other build in any other game mode that ever even dreamed of making use of a turret, can’t. Reason is, there is no scenario aside from just blatantly ignoring the turret in which Engineer turrets can now survive.

A UTILITY THAT IS ALWAYS ON COOLDOWN IS NOT A UTILITY WORTH TAKING!

Ok, got all that out. I don’t think it is possible to break it down into any more basic information than that. >.<

nexxe.7081:

Witaminka.4650:

not final yet, but they are workin on it \o/ bomb/granade/med

Wow, that looks terrible. Thanks to all the whiners for getting this changed.

Now it just looks ridiculous to see an engineer pull a huge keg of powder out of thin air.
I hope there’s an even bigger backlash against this from people in game. The forum whiners are a small minority and Anet totally caved.

Wow…..some people. For all those that liked the Hobosacks, there is still the Hobosack back piece. And a toggle on/off switch would be confusing visual tells for what kit engi is in. Best solution for those that like the Hobosacks is to put them in as regular back pieces in game.

As for the new Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit, I am trusting that the final product is going to look much better………right? O.o

As for Grenade Kit becoming a launcher, I’d have to say know due to the upcoming Mortar changes and because I like the whole grenade tossing animation.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

To sum it up short – being able do deploy my own siege engine, that others can use is pretty awesome and feels 100% elite.

The idea of old mortar is awesome, it’s the implementation that sucked. So rather then this “new & improved” how about “old & fixed?”. But that i mean:

1. Ability to pick it up. Goes on 10s cooldown if you successfully pick it up, as it’s supposed to be the “always with you” elite.

2. Global cooldown on it’s skills gone, placement cooldown lowered to 30s (when destroyed).

3. Making it a turret rather then kit would also be awesome. Imagine all those traits working in it’s favour – especially fortified turrets, experimental turrets (small stability pulse?), and deployable turrets – place it for buddy who’s got higher ground so he can rain some death from above even if he’s full melee himself.

4. removing the minimum range from it would also be nice. Fix it’s animation to make it able to shoot 90 degrees upwards (read right into where you’re standing).

5. increase projectile velocity, let it crit. It’s still an arcing projectile, not ranger’s traited sonic speed arrows.

Why the new mortar sucks in my opinion?

1. It’s a kit. Where’s the bad-ssery of mounting an actual mortar?
2. self-only. Why can’t i let others use it while i jump into the fray?
3. Much less tactical terrain gameplay. New mortar is a kit. Only tactics here are traits/specialization choices, not using placement, terrain and teamwork to your advantage.

How dare you! We’ve been asking for this forever now! You just keep quiet until changes are live and don’t poison anyone else’s head with that nonsense!

Oh and have a good day.

Gern.2978:

Manuhell.2759:

Saying they should “play smart” to overcome the nerf is simply idiotic, if not downright trolling.

The only way to not see them destroyed is either not using them at all or detonating them yourself. ….

You play smart by not putting all your turrets on the same spot, but rather spread them around the point you are defending so the person you are fighting has to run around killing your turrets or eat their damage. The fact that you are asking how you can not expect them to be destroyed shows how broken they were. The fact that engi’s used to expect their turrets to be up for the majority of a fight, despite placing them all on top of each other, shows how broken they were. So yes, you can now fully expect your turrets to die in a fight. But, so long as you don’t put them all on top of each other, or close enough to all be aoe’d at the same time, your opponent has to waste time running around DPSing your turrets instead of DPSing you.

Turret builds were a pretty brain dead way to play an engi before, now they require thought and tactics like other builds.

Good Turret Engineers never placed them on top of each other to start with. There is no “added skill.” We just went from, “Turret Engineer is incredibly easy to play” to, “turrets are now useless in every build in every game mode excluding the healing turret.”

And everyone keeps talking as if players have to run around and melee each turret 1 by 1. Do none of you have ranged attacks? Before the nerf I could easily shut down a Turret Engi by destroying his rocket turret and then focusing down the Engi. Or if I was running condi build I just LoS the Rocket Turret andburst the Engi down with condis.

Now though, I can pew pew each turret effortlessly from range, and then burn down the now completely defenseless Engi. No amount of “skill” from the Engineer will be able to make his turrets effective anymore, and no amount of “skill” will will be required to defeat a Turret Engi.

I can’t help but notice that most of the people rejoicing turret Engineer nerfs are posting completely childish, ill-informed, and otherwise rude comments while those who simply wanted turrets to be reworked are still posting modestly and attempting to outline why this was not the proper way to go with turret changes.

And Anet sided with……….the rude children. Way to go…….

Good job Anet, don’t worry, this reflects very highly on your decision making skills. ;P

Should go through and report all the rude attacking comments because, for one, it’s against forum rules and, two, Anet needs a good look at their supporters.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to reporting some of these comments as they’ve already been deleted.

I would like to know what new utility skills are replacing Turrets. I mean, you are replacing turrets right? We already know turrets have literally no place in PvE or WvW aside from Healing Turret, which may no longer be the go-to choice if Med Kit becomes substantially better. And we now know turrets have no place in PvP since their cooldowns are way to high to simply be destroyed a few seconds later.

Nobody liked turrets apparently, not even Engineers. They did not promote “skill.” So obviously being the good and educated company you are, you surely have no intentions of leaving us with a set of useless utilities and intend on replacing them with a new set of utilities that fit withing the confines of “fair and skillful play that doesn’t kitten everyone off,” right?

mistsim.2748:

I don’t think machines should bleed. but burning, poison (corrosion), and vulnerability make sense. honestly it would have been enough to make them crit-able. rest was unnecessary. I know this isn’t the popular opinion, but I never had too many issues with turret engies. but I did get annoyed watching my baddie teammates get instagibbed by their turrets and cc. people are just bads in general though.

I don’t think Fire Elementals should burn but hey, some of them do. As far as the bleeding, if it helps think of it as leaking oil. As for the Turret Nerfs, a rework was needed, but of course….Anet, so a nuke was dropped instead. I guess it’s just easier to take the low road instead.

Well they did say that each new specialization would come with some unique piece of armor.

Basaltface.2786:

Conncept.7638:

Please please please please please PLEEEEEASE make it not look horrible on charr.

http://i.imgur.com/pD8QIg4.png

well.. of course this happened

You know what? I think I could actually work with that for my Dr. Doom Charr. I would miss having my hood though……decision decisions.

It has been said from the start that something like this will never happen. Racial Skills are there just for fun, that’s all. Anet intentionally made them weaker so they would not affect a player’s choice when deciding what race they should choose.

For those that think this is a great idea, this is not the game for you. Do not try to bring failed ideas from other games into ours. >.<

It’ll be all awkwardly stretched. So so sad.