Someone made a really good point earlier that MMR Hell was essentially players who were better (even if just slightly) than where they are stuck. As a consequence they aren’t yet good enough to really make up for the lack of their teammates skills.
I imagine this is likely to be the case. These sticking points appear to occur in MMR ranges where players are probably better than their teammates but not better enough to consistently make oversized contributions to the final outcome aka “carry the game.” This is a crucial juncture point. If they win they maintain their MMR momentum. If they lose they risk having the MMR momentum carry them in the other direction where losing snowballs them further and further into an MMR hole (the so-called MMR hell) and where it becomes more and more difficult to crawl out as their oversized contributions need to be more and more oversized in order to carry their games. It’s a self-reinforcing cycle where winners get it easier and easier over time while losers get it harder and harder over time. So much seems to depend on just maintaining momentum through the tiers and quickly overcoming sticking points where they occur. Once that metaphorical loss snowball gets rolling it’s going to be tough for anyone as I think Archon’s post demonstrates quite well.
I think Chaith put it well as basically a solo queue mentality, over time you just know where to go, where the other team will go, which teammates you need to baby sit in order to succeed which ends up being a lot more impactful than a player who just goes far and wins a 1 v 1 over and over. So these players who are stuck are in a sense, are somewhat where they deserve to be, yet it appears that these players believe that they deserve to be stuck somewhere where their teammates aren’t making the terrible mistakes every game (like 1 guy who comes to your point for no reason) but in fact they are the ones making mistakes. I think there is a lot of validity to that claim because, as these players have stated, this is where their hard work can be seen to pay off. Instead of having to carry their team they instead are able to just focus on improving themselves. Unfortunately, with the current system it appears to be forcing players to simultaneously improve their personal play and their solo queue awareness/team play, understandably a frustrating thing for them to do.
There might be a point early in the snowball process where a certain mentality shift could turn things around. This is assuming that it’s just a few crucial team plays that are making the difference between their wins and losses. But what happens when it’s a lot of crucial errors being made map wide throughout the entire game? No one player can be everywhere at once. I think that’s where players start to feel like they’re in “MMR Hell.” What they’re really experiencing is the loser’s snowball effect where their oversized contributions need to be more and more oversized in order to win their games. At the same time there’s a psychological snowball effect to losing. Players become less and less inclined to try to go that extra mile to help their team because they become less and less confident that their efforts will be rewarded. So losing doesn’t just deflate MMR it deflates confidence.
I was genuinely curious when I started on this alt account to see if I would get stuck in MMR Hell. There are so many threads about it that it seems it is an inevitable outcome of queuing through tiers. Yet I never experienced it. Through the discussion on this thread it seems that yes, I am not one who would likely fall into MMR Hell and I have gained a better understanding of what is really going on and it is that mentioned in my previous paragraph. Players are not good enough to carry their way out of MMR Hell and they also feel that they should be somewhere where they are the ones who need the most improving and not their teammates. In an ideal world I would hope that sometimes players at their appropriate places should feel both ways. Sometimes they should have to carry a little but I think that also comes with solo queue awareness things like a body is down and your teammates is stomping and you realize they are stomping too so you need to swap targets interrupt the stomp so you guys can get your stomp first, or stealthing your teammate. Quick little plays that you can do that can end up making a big difference. A won fight often creates a snowball effect. Other times they should be the ones who need to improve in order to really carry forward, but hopefully they are only making small mistakes, like a player deciding to stomp a body instead of cleaving it out, because of this decision the other team got the stomp first and won the fight.
I find it pretty hard to imagine a scenario where someone like you or Chaith would ever find yourselves on the losing side of the MMR snowball. For one thing you guys are some of the best (if not the best) players in the game just from a mechanical and awareness standpoint and secondarily because having you guys on a team fills people’s metaphorical confidence bars. I know I always play better when I get someone like Zoose or Muffins or Chaith on my team because I believe we will win and that gives me the confidence to attempt plays that I might ordinarily shy away from. I’m sure this is true of other players as well although top tier players may take the psychological effect for granted as it’s just the norm for them.
…and such players will also get the best players playing on their team BECAUSE of how the MM works. So, yeah, you might carry but carrying the best available to you vs the worst possible in the pip range is not quite the same at all.
The insulting things for me when ppl allude that if you have issues it has to be because you can’t get into a “carrying mindset” is that they inherently assume we are not already on overdrive but still vastly overpowered by what we have to “carry”. The amount of sheer baseless assumptions that are made in these threads are just staggering.
MMR hell is a bad players excuse for being bad. Their MMR is totally low through no fault of their own, and they’re suddenly way better now than they were when it tanked. They were just testing builds or playing with friends!
Forget that people like myself have streamed F2P warriors to legendary, that doesn’t prove anything because we didn’t lose 50 games in a row first!
Yeah, and logical fallacies are the tools of the logically deprived apparently…
Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.
Gaining divisions isn’t about winning a 1v3 and single handedly winning the game. There’s actually a reason why people do better at this game than others, no, it’s not getting teammates who play their part.
One very efficient and aware player will almost always make the difference in guaranteeing that every highly winnable/close game is in the bag. And that’s definitely worth trying to achieve instead of just dismissing it..
I’m sorry but that simply doesn’t make any sense whatsoever unless you live in a world where everyone but you is garbage.
How can, all things being equal, 80% of what participate in a match not matter significantly more than anything your 20% does?
I get that you are great and all but unless your gyro or Helseth clones can cap by themselves because you are just plain THAT awesome logic still apply.
Ideally we would would all contribute 20% to a win. Realistically, a better player will contribute more to a win (carry teamfights, win a 1v2, etc). That’s not how it should be every game, but that’s the difference between someone saying they are stuck when they solely contribute their 20% and a good player who puts the team on his/her back when the time calls for it. Carry mentality.
I entirely agree we are not all worth the same in a team but if you think you weight more than 2 of the people you are with or against all the time there is a big problem somewhere all thing being equals.
And let’s assume you always weight that much, no matter what, it still isn’t enough to amount to what weight the most in a team. Not even considering that even if you can 3 v 1 all players in existence always you can never be at 3 spots at the same time while they can no matter how garbage they are. You have to consider that into how much you think you can carry because the inherent limit of being one come really fast.
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
i can prove MMR is system is bad in this game
Monday 2 pips away from legendary
Sunday 34 points away
To be fair that is not a proof.
Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.
Gaining divisions isn’t about winning a 1v3 and single handedly winning the game. There’s actually a reason why people do better at this game than others, no, it’s not getting teammates who play their part.
One very efficient and aware player will almost always make the difference in guaranteeing that every highly winnable/close game is in the bag. And that’s definitely worth trying to achieve instead of just dismissing it..
I’m sorry but that simply doesn’t make any sense whatsoever unless you live in a world where everyone but you is garbage.
How can, all things being equal, 80% of what participate in a match not matter significantly more than anything your 20% does?
I get that you are great and all but unless your gyro or Helseth clones can cap by themselves because you are just plain THAT awesome logic still apply.
I’ve lost 2 games, in my past 30 games or more. From amber to almost diamond 3 right now, in less than 7 days of actually playing pvp this season. I probably started like not even 3 weeks ago. There honestly isn’t a mmr hell, but you really need to hump the meta or you’ll simply be at a disadvantage.
I started by playing aura share d/d, to adapt my favorite d/d to the new meta. but I was only getting a winrate of like 70%, which obviously wasn’t right. Once I sucked it up, and started playing D/F I just stopped dropping hardly any games at all. I guess it helps that I know and met skilled people to team with at times, but I can honestly say I went through emerald and sapphire alone, by relying on a teamfight oriented build, and actively trying to command the pugs in team chat. When I didn’t care to type, those were the few times I actually lost. Facing 2 or 3 necros helps them too, but still :p
There isn’t a MMR hell. You just need to adapt your top tier class and build to what you’re facing every match, and have the moves to back it up.
Got a high MMR and conclude there is no MMR issue with MM. Typical.
Are you the kind of person that goes into a poor country and stay into a luxury resort only to concluded that what you saw was representative of the country?
If you want to see the reality ppl are talking about get out of your high MMR resort first. THEN and only THEN your comment will begin to have some credibility.
So what, pick the model that best supports your case
No no no, do not ever do this. No matter what you’re looking at you can always find some kook that’ll sell you your opinion in a shiny wrapper, no matter how much or how little truth there is to it. Do this only if you’re trying to score points in a debate and don’t care a whit about the truth.
If you want to sift through differing opinions you have to look at the assumptions and evidence each is offering and figure out where the balance lies between them. It’s not the easy road, but ‘just pick the evidence that supports your opinion!’ is an all too common form of idiocy that’ll never get you anywhere (outside of a political ‘debate’, sadly).
This. So much this.
The meta is far better than last season but the game balance and diversity is still really poor. I really do not enjoy having to play one build per profession. I hope one day it will be equally viable to play DPS ele as it is playing a heal bot.
Ty for posting this Eura. However, as you can see people will completely disregard what you say to convince themselves it’s the system keeping them down, not their own skill level. I don’t think anything can convince them otherwise, even if an ANet dev came in here and straight up said mmr hell doesn’t exist.
Of course, that is why I accept ppl’s invitations to play with me… Oh the irony…
I think its hilarious, how “pro” players dont want to team up with players stuck in mmr hell and think they are providing evidence that mmr hell doesnt exist by creating new f2p accounts… it kinda says a lot about the so called “pro” players.
Every dumb donkey can see that if you start with a high volatile but average mmr, and you win the first 10 or so matches, your mmr will steadily climb. You will get put on the winning side more often than on the loosing side… the higher your mmr, the less you get put on the loosing side… et voila…
What you’ve actually proven, is how kittening BROKEN this system is. You think it takes skill to win if you are put against worse teams all the time? No, it doesnt.
I mean at this point I’ve proposed to let people play on my account or to team with me and explain several time why starting a new account o prove anything without first crippling your MMR is just pure BS.
At this point I don’t know what more I can do. The moral of the story for me is if ppl don’t want to see something they plain won’t.
So what’s the solution?
Remove MMR.
If they only did matchmaking based on pips it would mean two things:
1. The beginning of the season would be even worse than today
2. The mid and ending of the season would be much better than today.I don’t think the start would be worst. Because of the random factor, people will low skill can get lucky once in a while and get teamed with 3-4 really good players. Where now the low skill people are pretty much doomed to loss every match.
That’s how it should be…If you want good players in your team then get good yourself, you lose matches against more skilled opponents and that’s how it should be, you should not be reward just for playing ; if you play thousand of matches and still act the same way , why would you expect any better results? ….I wish people would post the API code to verify their “skill level”.
wow ? just take a breath and think about what you are saying. If you match a team of NBA player vs a team of High school player do you really think the NBA players or the High school players are going to get any better after a game or even 100 games? People get better by practicing vs other people who are in the same skill level . That is why every REAL sport have levels like amateur, AA,AAA,Pro.
Basically Vygotsky’s zone of proximal development is what you are getting at.
yes your teammates are very bad sometimes, but so are your opponents.
No, no, and NO! Matrch making takes MMR to build a team. Then match making uses Pip Range to find an opposing team. It does not try, at all, to find an opponent of similar MMR to make a competitive match. So when we have Joe Legendary here running on Alt account, which many are doing, its the perfect example of how lower MMR players can be matched against high MMR players in lower divisions.
that’s your own illusion. mmr doesn’t mean anything, it’s a number that doesn’t win games. i’m sure there have been many games in which the enemy team had a higher mmr than mine and we still won. i beat a couple of 5man premades along the way to legendary too. you’re discouraging yourself by always taking mmr too seriously.
There is no illusion in saying MMR is used to make teams but not to find opponents. Look for yourself at the algorithm. I too defeated teams who seemed stronger but what does it prove? How does it change the fact this is how teams are made.
i’m not saying the system doesn’t match teams by mmr. what i’m saying is that mmr is just a number, it’s in no way a guaranteed loss if the enemy team has a higher mmr.
I agree. that is why I always fight to the bitter end. I win some and loose some. However, it make win streaks incredibly hard to get and maintain is the big difference since 80% of the team skill level can be very volatile. And I mean VERY as some players are “at least as good as me or better” up to “this guy is playing for the first time or what”.
The match making system is clearly inferior to Season 1. Mixing MMR + division pip range was an epic mistake and I am still waiting for an apology from Arenanet. The current system leads to countless of pointless matches of either huge losses (and no chances of winning) and huge wins (and no chances of losing) as the “better” players are placed in team A and “worse” players in team B.
One guy did a math simulation to prove the MMR hell is true. See:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/The-nature-of-MMR-hell/It is also obvious that the removal of amulets of was just a lazy band aid “fix”, which didn’t fix the core issue of the power creep since trait rework and most importantly the overpowered elite specs. Now we have more burst and less bunkers, but amount of builds seen is not significantly better or worse.
Okay, lets say that is true. How are you going to fix afkers trying to lower their MMR?
If the MM randomly pick players within pip range it doesn’t matter at all. There is no advantage to gain from such a gimmick.
yes your teammates are very bad sometimes, but so are your opponents.
No, no, and NO! Matrch making takes MMR to build a team. Then match making uses Pip Range to find an opposing team. It does not try, at all, to find an opponent of similar MMR to make a competitive match. So when we have Joe Legendary here running on Alt account, which many are doing, its the perfect example of how lower MMR players can be matched against high MMR players in lower divisions.
that’s your own illusion. mmr doesn’t mean anything, it’s a number that doesn’t win games. i’m sure there have been many games in which the enemy team had a higher mmr than mine and we still won. i beat a couple of 5man premades along the way to legendary too. you’re discouraging yourself by always taking mmr too seriously.
There is no illusion in saying MMR is used to make teams but not to find opponents. Look for yourself at the algorithm. I too defeated teams who seemed stronger but what does it prove? How does it change the fact this is how teams are made.
So you say the ladder system is better then season 1? It may be but unfortunately the class balance in this game is a huge kitten stinking up the room.
I find it funny how I can pretty much predict the outcome of a game based on the OP nature of some classes. 3 reapers and 2 scrappers? Ya that’s a win. 2 DH, 2 reapers and 1 ranger? More then likely a win as well.
What a joke, you’re ladder system might be better but it’s too hard to tell with this broken class balance.
I know of a lot of players that are pretty skillful in this game that can’t even seem to get out of the 3rd tier and just lose interest. They are definitely better then 3rd tier but I guess they just need to “L2P” right?
Ya nope, garbage….
You can swap professions before game starts you know?!
Even though the outcome of a match is dictated by the player behind the profession but anyway…
Players that can’t adapt to the situation are anything but “skilled” and those who can barely play one profession should take the “L2P” comment seriouslyExcept in the case where matchmaker decides it’s time for you to bend over and take it. This is CONFIRMED by a dev in the upper link the one guy posted about the match simulations.
No amount of class swapping is going to allow a win against a team with superior skill levels ALSO most likely swapping classes and simply playing their classes better, you become a stepping stone instead of running an even playing field.
I think people should post their API code and show the world what they really deserve as teammates
How would this prove anything in the cases MMR is badly evaluating you?
If it doesn’t prove “anything”, there should be no problem posting it then, show us how the MMR is “badly” evaluating you
I’ve seen what it mean to be “evaluating” by ppl on the forum. Provide better conditions of exposition for ppl and I will gladly do it. Better yet, why don’t you play with me just to see how pitiful I am?
So you say the ladder system is better then season 1? It may be but unfortunately the class balance in this game is a huge kitten stinking up the room.
I find it funny how I can pretty much predict the outcome of a game based on the OP nature of some classes. 3 reapers and 2 scrappers? Ya that’s a win. 2 DH, 2 reapers and 1 ranger? More then likely a win as well.
What a joke, you’re ladder system might be better but it’s too hard to tell with this broken class balance.
I know of a lot of players that are pretty skillful in this game that can’t even seem to get out of the 3rd tier and just lose interest. They are definitely better then 3rd tier but I guess they just need to “L2P” right?
Ya nope, garbage….
You can swap professions before game starts you know?!
Even though the outcome of a match is dictated by the player behind the profession but anyway…
Players that can’t adapt to the situation are anything but “skilled” and those who can barely play one profession should take the “L2P” comment seriouslyExcept in the case where matchmaker decides it’s time for you to bend over and take it. This is CONFIRMED by a dev in the upper link the one guy posted about the match simulations.
No amount of class swapping is going to allow a win against a team with superior skill levels ALSO most likely swapping classes and simply playing their classes better, you become a stepping stone instead of running an even playing field.
I think people should post their API code and show the world what they really deserve as teammates
How would this prove anything in the cases MMR is badly evaluating you?
Is it based purely on MMR?
Did I skip right over it by getting a 100% winrate in Ruby playing core ranger?
If you have a high MMR you probably were paired with all the best players all the way hence why you literally flew over that division.
If you want to experience “MMR hell”, crippled your MMR and then retry Ruby. Tell me how it is in soloq after that…
I DONT HAVE HYPE.
i dont know how else to say this but ill say it again…. i am not a great player, im not elite.
YET even though im not good i am able to carry through those lower leagues.
I hate this ridiculous the system is out to get me that has become a common issue among people these days
That is beside the point. That you are good or bad doesn’t have anything to do with what ppl are reporting. And your dislike of that is also irrelevant to it having value or not.
well according to you everyone who disagrees with anything you said is irrelevant…. so i guess you are irrelevant? And since you are irrelevant i guess the system cant be out to get you…. so yes that is irrelevant.
and the skill level is relevant, if you choose to ignore that its on you. I would rather believe people i know have been playing this game for a long time rather than randoms on the forums.
No. Ppl who disagree with me and says why they do with logic and factual evidences that doesn’t ignore my stance is never irrelevant.
If you can’t see why you disliking ppl complaining about MMR is is irrelevant to the topic I think we are done.
get gud son. literally all there is left to say.
and honestly it sounds more like it should be
get not horrible son.
and no…. i dont care about your gw1 experience… means jack in this game and by your own admission you are newish to pvp.
Yes, because when I say Gw1 all you understand is “this guy is new to gw2”. Bye now, the troll has be well fed indeed.
Its an entirely different game. Maybe your having issues with pvp because your still attempting to play gw1 on gw2?
I didnt say you were new to gw2 i said you were newish to gw2 pvp. I can try and find the post where you stated that if youd like?
What I meant and should have said more clearly rather than alluding it is that I have thousands of hours fighting humans in gw2 on my main mostly on non-meta builds. I’m not new but my suffering MMR consider me of the same caliber as a brand new player. This, of course, is an obvious problem for also obvious reasons.
i wouldnt call playing custom arena on non meta builds experienced in pvp. Or wvw experience.
Neither of those are even close to how ranked pvp should be played.
Being an experienced guild wars player you should have known that.
So yes your MMR being low is correct, you dont have a lot of experience in ranked conquest pvp in GW2.
I might have less than 10 matches in custom arena. The huge majority of my experience is in ranked and in WvW roaming (humans vs humans not PVE or Ktrain).
See what you did here, again? You immediately assumed what I played and concluded upon that assumption without even bathing an eye. Why am I even answering you I don’t know. You don’t care about anything I wrote down you will simply twist it back to fit your world view.
We are done. Seriously this time. I’m out of good will with you and I really tried. Maybe someone else will care to answer your next questions/assumptions.
You made a post very recently in which you did say you are inexperienced in ranked pvp. How many ranked pvp games do you have?
and wvw no matter what does not count. AT ALL.
Fine, I’ll answer that last question just to dissipate doubts about me being new,
I’ve said repeatedly in several threads that I had thousands of matches (that is far less than ppl who have tens of thousands but do we agree I’m far from a brand new guy) in pvp and I absolutely disagree about WvW roaming amounting to nothing just because you decided it was so.
The conditions you have to deal with in WvW are a lot more unfair and unbalanced than in ranked pvp so if you can do well there far from the safety of the zerg alone your mechanical skills are probably not to blame. In WvW instant death is a real thing while in pvp it plain isn’t. Stealth in pvp is no problem but in WvW it is a kittening big deal. Spotting a specific animation in the middle of some WvW bigger fights can much harder than it is in the context of ranked pvp. I have over 5k+ hours playing my main and have died over 16k+ times (I play risky a lot). I’m not new to human vs human fighting at all.
Now, before you answer back something like “but WvW this…” or “PvP that…” I’ll tell you that I couldn’t care less at this point. Let’s just disagree and be done with it. Really.
I DONT HAVE HYPE.
i dont know how else to say this but ill say it again…. i am not a great player, im not elite.
YET even though im not good i am able to carry through those lower leagues.
I hate this ridiculous the system is out to get me that has become a common issue among people these days
That is beside the point. That you are good or bad doesn’t have anything to do with what ppl are reporting. And your dislike of that is also irrelevant to it having value or not.
well according to you everyone who disagrees with anything you said is irrelevant…. so i guess you are irrelevant? And since you are irrelevant i guess the system cant be out to get you…. so yes that is irrelevant.
and the skill level is relevant, if you choose to ignore that its on you. I would rather believe people i know have been playing this game for a long time rather than randoms on the forums.
No. Ppl who disagree with me and says why they do with logic and factual evidences that doesn’t ignore my stance is never irrelevant.
If you can’t see why you disliking ppl complaining about MMR is is irrelevant to the topic I think we are done.
get gud son. literally all there is left to say.
and honestly it sounds more like it should be
get not horrible son.
and no…. i dont care about your gw1 experience… means jack in this game and by your own admission you are newish to pvp.
Yes, because when I say Gw1 all you understand is “this guy is new to gw2”. Bye now, the troll has be well fed indeed.
Its an entirely different game. Maybe your having issues with pvp because your still attempting to play gw1 on gw2?
I didnt say you were new to gw2 i said you were newish to gw2 pvp. I can try and find the post where you stated that if youd like?
What I meant and should have said more clearly rather than alluding it is that I have thousands of hours fighting humans in gw2 on my main mostly on non-meta builds. I’m not new but my suffering MMR consider me of the same caliber as a brand new player. This, of course, is an obvious problem for also obvious reasons.
i wouldnt call playing custom arena on non meta builds experienced in pvp. Or wvw experience.
Neither of those are even close to how ranked pvp should be played.
Being an experienced guild wars player you should have known that.
So yes your MMR being low is correct, you dont have a lot of experience in ranked conquest pvp in GW2.
I might have less than 10 matches in custom arena. The huge majority of my experience is in ranked and in WvW roaming (humans vs humans not PVE or Ktrain).
See what you did here, again? You immediately assumed what I played and concluded upon that assumption without even bathing an eye. Why am I even answering you I don’t know. You don’t care about anything I wrote down you will simply twist it back to fit your world view.
We are done. Seriously this time. I’m out of good will with you and I really tried. Maybe someone else will care to answer your next questions/assumptions.
So what’s the solution?
Remove MMR.
If they only did matchmaking based on pips it would mean two things:
1. The beginning of the season would be even worse than today
2. The mid and ending of the season would be much better than today.
I call BS on #1. It plain can’t be worse for those who suffer atm and that still do.
For one, if you would be paired randomly with ppl in your pip range you might actually know early victories instead of just defeat because the strong players would be mixed with the weaker ones rather than all on the same team vs the weaker players all on the other.
It would also help highlight individual skill because individuals would have the same conditions as anybody. No VIP express to heaven or hell courtesy of your high/low MMR making the 80% you do not control in any match of higher/lower quality.
Finally, it would also avoid the consequences of badly evaluating someone’s true level when MMR is significantly off reality. You would advance or not solely because you win or loose instead of because the system made it really hard for you to win or loose.
People forget that the whole division deal isn’t to allow everyone to get diamond or legendary. If you are not good enough to get there then you simply won’t. I agree that sometimes you get bad teammates and that’s fine and all but if you are only winning 50% or less, then the game has you where you need to be. It’s not fun being there, but that’s the system telling you that you are where you are supposed to be. Good players win despite having bad teammates, so they are the ones that are highly ranked with good mmr
For my part I have no problem whatsoever no matter where my place is as long as it is among ppl of similar level. As it is, whoever believe that is blind and profoundly dumb. I’m sorry but that is plain reality.
The problem isn’t that most of those pointing fingers at MMR team making would like to be higher than they actually are. It is that they are stuck among ppl that are clearly below them and forced into bad MM by the algorithm and they feel powerless so much what they are asked to carry is absurd. If at least it would mean we would enjoy close matches but no. It’s a blowout fest on one side or the other with an occasional close match and a lot of frustration. In other word it is everything I do not want in a game. Even a competitive one.
I DONT HAVE HYPE.
i dont know how else to say this but ill say it again…. i am not a great player, im not elite.
YET even though im not good i am able to carry through those lower leagues.
I hate this ridiculous the system is out to get me that has become a common issue among people these days
That is beside the point. That you are good or bad doesn’t have anything to do with what ppl are reporting. And your dislike of that is also irrelevant to it having value or not.
well according to you everyone who disagrees with anything you said is irrelevant…. so i guess you are irrelevant? And since you are irrelevant i guess the system cant be out to get you…. so yes that is irrelevant.
and the skill level is relevant, if you choose to ignore that its on you. I would rather believe people i know have been playing this game for a long time rather than randoms on the forums.
No. Ppl who disagree with me and says why they do with logic and factual evidences that doesn’t ignore my stance is never irrelevant.
If you can’t see why you disliking ppl complaining about MMR is is irrelevant to the topic I think we are done.
get gud son. literally all there is left to say.
and honestly it sounds more like it should be
get not horrible son.
and no…. i dont care about your gw1 experience… means jack in this game and by your own admission you are newish to pvp.
Yes, because when I say Gw1 all you understand is “this guy is new to gw2”. Bye now, the troll has be well fed indeed.
Its an entirely different game. Maybe your having issues with pvp because your still attempting to play gw1 on gw2?
I didnt say you were new to gw2 i said you were newish to gw2 pvp. I can try and find the post where you stated that if youd like?
What I meant and should have said more clearly rather than alluding it is that I have thousands of hours fighting humans in gw2 on my main mostly on non-meta builds. I’m not new but my suffering MMR consider me of the same caliber as a brand new player. This, of course, is an obvious problem for also obvious reasons.
I DONT HAVE HYPE.
i dont know how else to say this but ill say it again…. i am not a great player, im not elite.
YET even though im not good i am able to carry through those lower leagues.
I hate this ridiculous the system is out to get me that has become a common issue among people these days
That is beside the point. That you are good or bad doesn’t have anything to do with what ppl are reporting. And your dislike of that is also irrelevant to it having value or not.
well according to you everyone who disagrees with anything you said is irrelevant…. so i guess you are irrelevant? And since you are irrelevant i guess the system cant be out to get you…. so yes that is irrelevant.
and the skill level is relevant, if you choose to ignore that its on you. I would rather believe people i know have been playing this game for a long time rather than randoms on the forums.
No. Ppl who disagree with me and says why they do with logic and factual evidences that doesn’t ignore my stance is never irrelevant.
If you can’t see why you disliking ppl complaining about MMR is is irrelevant to the topic I think we are done.
get gud son. literally all there is left to say.
and honestly it sounds more like it should be
get not horrible son.
and no…. i dont care about your gw1 experience… means jack in this game and by your own admission you are newish to pvp.
Yes, because when I say Gw1 all you understand is “this guy is new to gw2”. Bye now, the troll has be well fed indeed.
I DONT HAVE HYPE.
i dont know how else to say this but ill say it again…. i am not a great player, im not elite.
YET even though im not good i am able to carry through those lower leagues.
I hate this ridiculous the system is out to get me that has become a common issue among people these days
That is beside the point. That you are good or bad doesn’t have anything to do with what ppl are reporting. And your dislike of that is also irrelevant to it having value or not.
well according to you everyone who disagrees with anything you said is irrelevant…. so i guess you are irrelevant? And since you are irrelevant i guess the system cant be out to get you…. so yes that is irrelevant.
and the skill level is relevant, if you choose to ignore that its on you. I would rather believe people i know have been playing this game for a long time rather than randoms on the forums.
No. Ppl who disagree with me and says why they do with logic and factual evidences that doesn’t ignore my stance is never irrelevant.
If you can’t see why you disliking ppl complaining about MMR is is irrelevant to the topic I think we are done.
BTW. I play GW since the first days of GW1. Do you believe me now?
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
I DONT HAVE HYPE.
i dont know how else to say this but ill say it again…. i am not a great player, im not elite.
YET even though im not good i am able to carry through those lower leagues.
I hate this ridiculous the system is out to get me that has become a common issue among people these days
That is beside the point. That you are good or bad doesn’t have anything to do with what ppl are reporting. And your dislike of that is also irrelevant to it having value or not.
You got to diamond, you may have taken the salty road, bare foot, with a 300lbs bag on your back, but you persevered. Probably learned a thing or two about carrying two bodies to victory.
You will always climb out of MMR hell and get your max as long as you’re trying, and don’t give up.
Maybe but he shouldn’t have had to. The system is poor and we now have the math to prove it.
what math proves what…… he already said he would pay the guy who successfully challenged his math and it was challenged. You might not agree… sweet.
Not everyone should be able to cruise through the lower tiers but i carried the hell out of my teams through sapphire. If a player at my skill level can carry at those tiers…. it really makes me 100% sure its not bad MMR that is keeping people in those divisions.
I think you missed the other “thread” https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/The-nature-of-MMR-hell/page/2#post6063062 with more math in it and confuse your unique case and perception with something that has inferential value.
You have no way to compare your journey to where you are to those of others and conclude that the difference is your skill. Knowing all the variables included in the equation, it is supremely pretentious to even flirt with that idea.
There are several models that show it’s more than likely that what many call “MMR hell” exist within this particular MM model.
I didnt miss the thread. But its a model and in no way a real representation of what is actually going on as he had to make assumptions to make the model. He admitted those things.
I like forward to your math disproving it then, the OP in no way admitted that it was irrelevant. Plus there have been 1-2 other models done with much the same conclusion and the anet devs themselves seem to regard it as useful.
I wasn’t the one disproving it I beleive it was some guy named ensign.
He in no way disproved it.
Well he can’t disprove something that is not proven. He disputed it.
I get you all seem to have some sort of vendetta against players who are having an easier time in season 2 than season 1…. but even anet admitted season 1 had flaws, yes season 2 has flaws as well but even the math with that simulation it shows a very small amount being possibly in MMR hell.
You got it backward. Ppl seemingly caught in a perpetual loop have no grudge that I know of at ppl who have gone to the top without any problem. The threads start accumulating when ppl like you began to tell all these guys to l2p instead of blaming others/system regardless of how much they couldn’t know.
Also, since this is tied to the answer I gave above, I have no problem with your hype. I have a problem with you telling others what their problem is when you obviously couldn’t care less about said problem. Your stance isn’t one that scream “wait and see”. It scream “I made it and I won’t let you tarnish my glory”.
Edit: I forgot to add that, no, your anecdotes are not as good as any of the replies that addressed the topic with factual evidences (not opinions) that could lead to inference (not anecdotal).
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
You got to diamond, you may have taken the salty road, bare foot, with a 300lbs bag on your back, but you persevered. Probably learned a thing or two about carrying two bodies to victory.
You will always climb out of MMR hell and get your max as long as you’re trying, and don’t give up.
Maybe but he shouldn’t have had to. The system is poor and we now have the math to prove it.
what math proves what…… he already said he would pay the guy who successfully challenged his math and it was challenged. You might not agree… sweet.
Not everyone should be able to cruise through the lower tiers but i carried the hell out of my teams through sapphire. If a player at my skill level can carry at those tiers…. it really makes me 100% sure its not bad MMR that is keeping people in those divisions.
I think you missed the other “thread” https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/The-nature-of-MMR-hell/page/2#post6063062 with more math in it and confuse your unique case and perception with something that has inferential value.
You have no way to compare your journey to where you are to those of others and conclude that the difference is your skill. Knowing all the variables included in the equation, it is supremely pretentious to even flirt with that idea.
There are several models that show it’s more than likely that what many call “MMR hell” exist within this particular MM model.
I didnt miss the thread. But its a model and in no way a real representation of what is actually going on as he had to make assumptions to make the model. He admitted those things.
More and more it just seems like a bunch of babies with dunning kruger.
Im sorry season 1 allowed you to grind your way into legendary and now you cant…..
If me assuming other people are having l2p issues is pretentious then so be it.
Ive been playing this game for quite a while and i know im not the most skilled player yet i was able to carry hard through sapphire.
But you are making assumptions about me and my road through the divisions as well… i fail to see any difference other than your self serving opinions.
The models yield a lot more supportive objective evidences than your anecdotes when the time come to conclude on the topic. Brushing aside all that you do not like to keep your anecdotes and conclude it’s mostly a l2p issue while having no clue about others nor any way to compare their journey to yours is most definitely pretentious.
Beside, in the light of these models an the fact you are 1/5 of an ever changing team, I think the ppl thinking they are responsible for more than they factually can be in the outcome of these matches are the ones behaving like babies with Dunning Kruger issues. Maybe some ppl need to stop believing their own hype and just enjoy their good fortune.
Oh, and what assumptions did I made about you and your road? I said you had no way to compare to others and that is not an assumption. It is a fact.
You got to diamond, you may have taken the salty road, bare foot, with a 300lbs bag on your back, but you persevered. Probably learned a thing or two about carrying two bodies to victory.
You will always climb out of MMR hell and get your max as long as you’re trying, and don’t give up.
Maybe but he shouldn’t have had to. The system is poor and we now have the math to prove it.
what math proves what…… he already said he would pay the guy who successfully challenged his math and it was challenged. You might not agree… sweet.
Not everyone should be able to cruise through the lower tiers but i carried the hell out of my teams through sapphire. If a player at my skill level can carry at those tiers…. it really makes me 100% sure its not bad MMR that is keeping people in those divisions.
I think you missed the other “thread” https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/The-nature-of-MMR-hell/page/2#post6063062 with more math in it and confuse your unique case and perception with something that has inferential value.
You have no way to compare your journey to where you are to those of others and conclude that the difference is your skill. Knowing all the variables included in the equation, it is supremely pretentious to even flirt with that idea.
There are several models that show it’s more than likely that what many call “MMR hell” exist within this particular MM model.
This is a really great analysis. I appreciate all the work you put into this. We recognize the problems that the season 2 matchmaking is causing and are looking into solutions that will provide a good experience and satisfy our goals for the league system.
abolish mmr and just match people randomly within division? Can’t be worse than it is now
They need a combination of S1 and S2 and maybe smarter mmr, as opposed to no mmr.
Why do you need any MMR any way? If you are a strong player you will ascend along with other strong players and eventually settle where your matches will be as close as can be. And on top of it you will do so without tarnishing your prestige because having an even easier climb than you would have had otherwise.
MMR is fun as a statistic to inform you about your team (if you have a regular team) but using it to build soloq teams is problematic.
BTW: Ty for replying here Evan. It is nice to have some feedback from you guys about matters like this.
I’m not a huge fan of the “just throw ‘x number’ of players together” at random ala GW1 FA, JQ or RA. I don’t necessarily want to be teamed with just 4 other ppl that queued at the same time as me so long as they fall in the right pip range.
I got a lot of enjoyment from the 50/50 system because a lot more matches were close and exhilarating The issue with MMR is its simply not smart, nor is it truly “individual.” (If I understand how it presently works)
If they decide to go toward a reward track I’m backing you 100%. It’s if they insist on going toward a ladder that what I say matters.
This is a really great analysis. I appreciate all the work you put into this. We recognize the problems that the season 2 matchmaking is causing and are looking into solutions that will provide a good experience and satisfy our goals for the league system.
abolish mmr and just match people randomly within division? Can’t be worse than it is now
They need a combination of S1 and S2 and maybe smarter mmr, as opposed to no mmr.
Why do you need any MMR any way? If you are a strong player you will ascend along with other strong players and eventually settle where your matches will be as close as can be. And on top of it you will do so without tarnishing your prestige because having an even easier climb than you would have had otherwise.
MMR is fun as a statistic to inform you about your team (if you have a regular team) but using it to build soloq teams is problematic.
BTW: Ty for replying here Evan. It is nice to have some feedback from you guys about matters like this.
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
How do you think predetermined MMR from S1 affected the MMR hell?
Well, in my case, knowing that there was no other consequence than loosing a match I didn’t mind playing riskier builds last season. When the rules changed I sooooo regretted having done that.
Next time, warn people before you make such changes or reset the metric you want to use.
That first post was talking about Year of Ascension part 3, but for part 4 I used to relog trick to not ruin my MMR again incase MMR is of relevance for season 3.
I sure hope I’m not going to carry my burden to the next season. I swear to god I’m not going to waste my time knowing what await me if it is the case.
Very interesting. This is refreshing to see more and more ppl addressing the issues of S2 with more than just opinions to back their claims one way or the other.
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The problem, as with any model, is what to do with the outliers. A model is useful to find trends and maximize probability of prediction but is often a poor tool to explain cases that are too extreme.
And won’t outliers on both sides be the vocal minority? Or at least more likely to be?
They aren’t less legitimate. Beside, I’d like to see you in the shoes of an outliers…
Honestly I think I may be a bit of an outlier, hadn’t played for like a month, came back and I’ve had one ranked loss from amber to sapphire 3. I’ll let you know if it keeps going.
And if I was an outlier on the other end I can assure you I would attribute it to my own lack of knowledge and skill as opposed to blaming mmr teammates builds basically anything bUT myself.
I think I’ve learned from losing than winning…. but I understand not everyone is the same way.
I assure you I know the value of losing. Failure is a great teacher. Always was, always is.
I’ve also learn to put what is mine on my shoulders and leave what is not to those to which it belong. Otherwise you will feel a lot of guilt by blaming yourself to spare others of what is rightfully theirs. If all is my fault I’ll carry it all. If it is not, I will get the part that is mine and expect others to pick theirs. Asking for that is not blaming others.
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The problem, as with any model, is what to do with the outliers. A model is useful to find trends and maximize probability of prediction but is often a poor tool to explain cases that are too extreme.
And won’t outliers on both sides be the vocal minority? Or at least more likely to be?
They aren’t less legitimate. Beside, I’d like to see you in the shoes of an outliers…
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The problem, as with any model, is what to do with the outliers. A model is useful to find trends and maximize probability of prediction but is often a poor tool to explain cases that are too extreme.
Well, knowing how you can easily be the scapegoat of anybody when the outcome is not in your favor just for not playing strict meta I must say I’m impressed by your dedication.
I know you meant as a “I made it, so can you” statement, but it shows how rather flawed the system actually is.
I bet most of the time you only got matched against players that couldnt identify and dodge the necessary skills. Its what I experienced on an account on the “easy” side of mmr.
I was thinking the same. This is the kind of comment that actually shoot the person using that argument in the foot.
snip
That may be a way to weed out some of the complaints about MMR when the cause of the loss was entirely in their control.
When is it ever entirely or even in majority in your control? I can change my build and prof but I can’t force the 2 wars on my team to switch if they don’t want to. I can tell what I intend to do and communicate but whether or not ppl care is out of my control. I can call target but I can’t focus for them etc.
Nice work but you do know that correlation doesn’t mean causation, right??
Of course. It also has nothing to do with what’s going on here – this is a simulation using hypothetical data and processes, not an analysis of real data. It’s thus theoretical and descriptive. Correlation != causation does not apply in a simulation, as there are no cofounders or measurement error – the model is fully specified, and any errors are discrepancies between the model and a real system.
- How is the meta impacting your data? (I.e. class imbalance and what not)
The meta shows up in two ways in the rankings. First, you can think of your build as something that shifts your ‘true’ MMR strength – if you are playing a strong meta build, your true strength is higher than if you were playing an average build, while playing a weak build has you perform as if you had a lower strength. If you switch builds and classes from game to game, then your ‘true’ strength is actually changing from game to game as well, which makes your performance and your rating more volatile. I didn’t put anything like that into this simulation, because I’ve done so enough in the past to know it doesn’t really change anything – it makes the system a bit more volatile, and players ratings on average represent a combination of their MMR and the strength of their plate of builds.
The second way it impacts the model (or reality) is by making match outcomes more unpredictable. If everyone played identical builds then differences in skill and in-game performance explain the variance in outcomes, but when builds are involved differences in the match-up advantage also explain outcomes. This means that while a team may be favored to win, say, 70-30 by MMR, they are in reality only favored to win 65-35; in the worst case the build advantage is a coin toss and it drives real win rates towards 50-50. Over the course of a long simulation, this effect doesn’t really mean anything – it lowers the MMR spread (good players have slightly lower MMRs than their true strength, and weak players have slightly higher) by trivial amounts, and really only on the extreme tips where it’s hard to make matches for players.
- New players started with higher MMR than folks who tried to cripple their way to legendary/diamond.
I always throw this into the initial conditions. Under competitive matchmaking, even huge differences between MMR and real skill fix themselves within 100 games or so. The system in use here is not competitive matchmaking however, so it converges slower – really extreme differences in MMR and skill take 200 games or so to correct themselves. These are huge discrepancies, by the way, like having a 1100 MMR player (~25th percentile skill) being carried to 2800 MMR (3rd best MMR in the league) in the preseason – this corrects itself and that player is comfortably back at their MMR, glued to the bottom of diamond after being carried there.
Note that this ends up converging on true ratings faster than they would have during season 1 (and after sufficient games, ends up converging faster than ladder-less matches!) This works because the imbalanced matches, while not very fun, impose a pretty fast, rough sort of the player base amongst the divisions. After it’s done that, the imbalanced matchmaker actually sets up a lot of opportunities for upsets within each division – if you’re underrated given your MMR and division, it’ll feed you a steady diet of matches that it expects you to lose, and pairs you with teammates that are probably higher rated than you, statistically, so the carry effect is that much stronger.
-What are your independent and dependent variables?
There are no indepenedent or dependent variables, as this is a simulation of system dynamics, not a regression.
Can you imagine what it is to have to go through anything close to 200 matches just to get out of the kind of team making (your own and the opponent) you are handed if your MMR is too far from it’s real mark?
I do my daily these days and I’m done even if I win 2 matches out of 3 because I’m kittening spent on this game.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
I will usually ask for who goes home and what do we do. To which 75% or more of the time I will get no answer whatsoever.
As I play a cheesemancer as my main (auramancer) I will try my hardest to stick with at least another player so I’m not wasting most of my potential. That being said, if nobody ever care about looking at the map I will go back home alone to prevent a free cap. I’m allergic to letting my cap get taken for free unless it’s obvious ill get destroyed.
Going far is not really a problem for me or the group. The problem is that ppl going far will insist going there even when they see a loosing fight (maybe they do not see it that way but they die… and go again and again).
Rotating is a real problem for a lot and they end up trickling mid most too often. the best I can do is ask them to stop feeding mid and go home or far while most of them are still mid but I can’t comply for them so I will go do the job myself knowing this smells real bad.
The biggest responsible of loss for matches we lead but end-up loosing are 80% the same: overextending. They kittening can’t help themselves. They HAVE to do it even when you beg them not to. they will leave you alone mid when you have 2 cap to go far and ignore you when you say 2-3 inc mid. It’s maddening.
My last stronghold game (was a reaper) I was the only one who said he’d go for defense. I had no problem on def while my team couldn’t get the gate guards down. Nor the treb for that matter… What did they do when the opponent was leading by 150 pts? They all came to help me defend even tho I begged them to stay on offense because most of them were fighting here and we could not win by defense at this point anyway…. so I went offense, alone, and got the gate down… and we lost.
I can switch my profession to a few others that I feel at least decent on but mos t of the time if you ask someone if he could switch you simply get ignored.
I seriously think you have no idea how it can be. It is too often just unreal. Some are apparently so tired of being called out or loosing that they are reacting to others by blocking them and then pming a litany of insults and lies to vent an, I guess, feel a bit better (but you can’t debunk their lies because they blocked you first… if you are going to be kittens at least have the balls to accept the reply).
I can see the flaw already. You dont have to stay on a node, just follow your team, look at minimap and follow the other teammates where they go on map. You have to control the map. When your teammates go far, go with with them since youre an ele, but be prepared for a decap on close. However, if you dont go with your team to far they will die there unless they leave far again. If you have 2 people at far vs 4 (since other team probably wants to snowball) aka take close and then middle, you make it easier for the other team if you dont +1. Then youre at a big disadvantage and have 2 dead people at far while you sit on middle and gonna be overrun by 4 people and you have 2 less people in combat. My advice is to follow your team as an ele even how kittened it feels when they go far. If you win the teamfights, you most of the time win. Try it. Just be aware that close can be decapped but if you win far, thats not an issue.
I would, if any of them would bother checking the kittening map. I mean, sure I can always do better. Always. But pinning myself with majority of the blame is pure BS.
Not saying that you should blame yourself. But my advice is to adapt to your team, however dumb it feels. When you stay middle or go close bc youre worried about a decap, you arent adapting to your team.
I’ll try it more and I’ll update you about it.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
I will usually ask for who goes home and what do we do. To which 75% or more of the time I will get no answer whatsoever.
As I play a cheesemancer as my main (auramancer) I will try my hardest to stick with at least another player so I’m not wasting most of my potential. That being said, if nobody ever care about looking at the map I will go back home alone to prevent a free cap. I’m allergic to letting my cap get taken for free unless it’s obvious ill get destroyed.
Going far is not really a problem for me or the group. The problem is that ppl going far will insist going there even when they see a loosing fight (maybe they do not see it that way but they die… and go again and again).
Rotating is a real problem for a lot and they end up trickling mid most too often. the best I can do is ask them to stop feeding mid and go home or far while most of them are still mid but I can’t comply for them so I will go do the job myself knowing this smells real bad.
The biggest responsible of loss for matches we lead but end-up loosing are 80% the same: overextending. They kittening can’t help themselves. They HAVE to do it even when you beg them not to. they will leave you alone mid when you have 2 cap to go far and ignore you when you say 2-3 inc mid. It’s maddening.
My last stronghold game (was a reaper) I was the only one who said he’d go for defense. I had no problem on def while my team couldn’t get the gate guards down. Nor the treb for that matter… What did they do when the opponent was leading by 150 pts? They all came to help me defend even tho I begged them to stay on offense because most of them were fighting here and we could not win by defense at this point anyway…. so I went offense, alone, and got the gate down… and we lost.
I can switch my profession to a few others that I feel at least decent on but mos t of the time if you ask someone if he could switch you simply get ignored.
I seriously think you have no idea how it can be. It is too often just unreal. Some are apparently so tired of being called out or loosing that they are reacting to others by blocking them and then pming a litany of insults and lies to vent an, I guess, feel a bit better (but you can’t debunk their lies because they blocked you first… if you are going to be kittens at least have the balls to accept the reply).
I can see the flaw already. You dont have to stay on a node, just follow your team, look at minimap and follow the other teammates where they go on map. You have to control the map. When your teammates go far, go with with them since youre an ele, but be prepared for a decap on close. However, if you dont go with your team to far they will die there unless they leave far again. If you have 2 people at far vs 4 (since other team probably wants to snowball) aka take close and then middle, you make it easier for the other team if you dont +1. Then youre at a big disadvantage and have 2 dead people at far while you sit on middle and gonna be overrun by 4 people and you have 2 less people in combat. My advice is to follow your team as an ele even how kittened it feels when they go far. If you win the teamfights, you most of the time win. Try it. Just be aware that close can be decapped but if you win far, thats not an issue.
I would, if any of them would bother checking the kittening map. I mean, sure I can always do better. Always. But pinning myself with majority of the blame is pure BS.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
I will usually ask for who goes home and what do we do. To which 75% or more of the time I will get no answer whatsoever.
As I play a cheesemancer as my main (auramancer) I will try my hardest to stick with at least another player so I’m not wasting most of my potential. That being said, if nobody ever care about looking at the map I will go back home alone to prevent a free cap. I’m allergic to letting my cap get taken for free unless it’s obvious ill get destroyed.
Going far is not really a problem for me or the group. The problem is that ppl going far will insist going there even when they see a loosing fight (maybe they do not see it that way but they die… and go again and again).
Rotating is a real problem for a lot and they end up trickling mid most too often. the best I can do is ask them to stop feeding mid and go home or far while most of them are still mid but I can’t comply for them so I will go do the job myself knowing this smells real bad.
The biggest responsible of loss for matches we lead but end-up loosing are 80% the same: overextending. They kittening can’t help themselves. They HAVE to do it even when you beg them not to. they will leave you alone mid when you have 2 cap to go far and ignore you when you say 2-3 inc mid. It’s maddening.
My last stronghold game (was a reaper) I was the only one who said he’d go for defense. I had no problem on def while my team couldn’t get the gate guards down. Nor the treb for that matter… What did they do when the opponent was leading by 150 pts? They all came to help me defend even tho I begged them to stay on offense because most of them were fighting here and we could not win by defense at this point anyway…. so I went offense, alone, and got the gate down… and we lost.
I can switch my profession to a few others that I feel at least decent on but mos t of the time if you ask someone if he could switch you simply get ignored.
I seriously think you have no idea how it can be. It is too often just unreal. Some are apparently so tired of being called out or loosing that they are reacting to others by blocking them and then pming a litany of insults and lies to vent an, I guess, feel a bit better (but you can’t debunk their lies because they blocked you first… if you are going to be kittens at least have the balls to accept the reply).
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
i think you can just trust Anet and take their word that the system is based for skill and unworthy players wont be able to grind anymore unless they abuse MMR in some way (like many did in s1)
Or…..I could look at it and as far as I can tell it’s flawed…..and then I could ask people if they agreed with the analysis…..and then I could challenge people to offer proof that it’s not flawed….then I could offer to basically pay for proof it’s not broken…..
the majority of players are not good, as a huge part (and flaw) of human nature they will naturaly seek excuses instead of admitting that they should improve and thus they will agree with anything that allows them to stick with their excuses and cling into any sort of vague proof which makes them think they are not bad
considering all these arguments… i doubt people will manage to get to the facts when the facts are against them
Oh please, if you want to use “human nature” you might add that those who are in the good favor of any given system will also seek excuses to avoid loosing their status and privilege.
Now if we are done with this pathetic joke of an non-argument we might fall back on facts and logic to find out what we say we want to know? The OP has done some very legit work, let’s see what you offer that hold any value.
Seriously, there are ppl who simply are not interested to hear what they do not like to hear is the problem and if a fact or a truth is a liability to how they like to think the world function they just dismiss it.
It is just so sad to witness so little good faith on that topic so far. Some ppl are obviously trolls tho…
Obviously youre a much better player on your f2p acc and a pleb, peasant w/e you want to call it on your main acc. In short l2p, git gut, bb. Nothing to see here /thread
Wow the salt is real in this one.
screenshots? vid?
You do not need any screenshots. Look at the frigging algorithm kitten . It is litterally how it is supposed to work. MMR decide a lot.
Your not a legendary player deal with it. There reason for the suddenly losing is you have finally starting get placed against people better then you the majority of the time. Why does everyone and I mean everyone think they should keep winning forever? I got new for you there are people better then you at this game and probably quite a few of them.
I do not remember even a single example of someone saying he had a problem not being legendary. This isn’t close to the problem I read most people have. Isn’t mine for sure.
Also, “everyone” think they should keep winning forever? Someone who never thought that one second is replying to you right now. I think you need to get some serious reading skill and information processing ones too.