Guild Wars 2

does anyone noticed that OP has a rather low rank and also low match participation history?

MMR hell hit the old players with high rank and big match participation history stretching all the way back to the old leadership board.

to make a point. a old player literally played an alt account with little match history like OP’s and manage to breeze through to diamond while his main account that has a lot match history is stuck in ruby. he also made a thread about it.

the following screenshot was taken in a match i had a moment ago. i am in the full ruby team. notice the score gap? assuming that the ruby in the diamond team are people from the t5 t6 section. otherwise, is hard to be paired up with diamond. so how these people managed to reach diamond and top section of the ruby? is MMR really working or MMR is just a bias system that give bad players a chance to go up by matching them against bad players most of the time while the good players are slaughtering each other or being forced to be grouped with bad players against average players because the MMR says is balanced?

it come has no surprise…
even when im not working in anet company, i can already see how bad the game development schedule is in just by the quality of the game expansion itself when it was delivered.

i wonder where are the white knights that kept on attacking people like me who were only just emphasizing the obvious, calling us cynical or negative or hater.

anyway……
lets wait for the overhaul and see what it brings…

regardless, the servers have to be reduced
too many chiefs , not enough indians

of course, the ideal solution is to have dymanic teams, always changing the total number of teams every X months according to situations

this is inevitable process for all old games. if the number of servers are not reduced, chance are that newbies may go to a server that does not have much wvw activities going on. do you think those newbies will be interested in wvw when they see the lack of activities? furthermore, as said, too many chiefs not enough indians, it will slowly bleed out other servers.

of course, there is a issue of “fairness” and “population disparity”. the still ideal solution is to force players to choose new teams or servers every X months. this will make players move around every X months and rebalancing the population as the number of servers is dynamic. of course, this erase the existence of server community but this can give birth to alliance community

Halvorn.9831:

Merging servers is the exact opposite of what should be done. If you merge servers then players will still stop playing so you have not solved the problem, you keep merging servers again and again.

Instead servers should be split. That way, the difference between a highly populated and a lower populated server becomes smaller. More servers, more variance, easier to maintain.

im…speechless

ermm…

obviously….
OP is complaining that 5 solos r vsing 2 premade.
he is completely puzzled why 5 solos r vsing 2 premade, shouldn’t the premade be mixing with the solos and not the other way round?

when he meant 2 premade, he meant that the premade 2 groups of premade form up the 5-men team.

i dunno, maybe my english isnt as bad as others

rotate can be complicated yet simple if you are experienced in RTS games.

generally, it involve having awareness of your map, your teammates’ positions, your enemies’ positions, your enemies’ compositions, your team’s compositions, your team vs enemy skill gap degree and finally the different classes’ roles…..

moving in a way that capable of supporting or help your team and breaking enemy flow

hahhah
dont be shocked. this isnt unusal.
the system is really bias in this season, i have lost count the number of times i had a full team of lower division against a full team of higher division. half of the times i won those but im really unhappy to only get one pip despite winning a supposedly stronger team.

the dev then will tell you otherwise in other thread, that makes the discontent double.

thanks for confirming that the system is bias

i had a unverified insider information
wvw season will be like pvp season, lasting for months with a short break inbetween.
each season will have pre-made players and random players, this is on a wvw scale so it will be like hundreds of premade players. the random players r the people who didnt chose any team before the season and will be thrown into a team randomly if they chose to join during the season. they will be stuck in that team until season over.

then again, is unverified information, still waiting for that supposedly guild chat about wvw overhaul.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Fairly often I see it posted that we didn’t make any changes to WvW or the Desert Borderlands map as a result of our Desert Borderlands stress tests. While it’s totally true that we didn’t attempt to completely overhaul the entire map a month or two before the Expansion shipped (as that was definitely out of scope), we made more than a few changes and bug fixes as a result of the playtesting and feedback from those pre-HoT beta events.

I only have the release notes from the 2nd beta handy (which I’ve posted below), but we made similar numbers of changes after each of the three closed beta events.

With that being said, we understand that there are many issues the community still wants to see addressed with the Desert Borderlands and we are still working to improve the map, as well as our other high priorities like bringing back Alpine, skill balance, improving rewards, and correcting population balance.

//Old Patch Notes Begin
General WvW Changes

• Arrow Carts (all types) now require 10 more supply to build.
• Supply camps now auto-upgrade faster.
• Supply depots now are marked on the map.
• Players can no longer rally off of basic creatures in WvW. Only veteran rank or higher.
• Objective bosses now have health scaling based on the number of allied and enemy players in the area.
• Sentries will now mark enemy players on the map for 30 seconds.
• Keeps will now mark enemy players within their perimeter, for the first 5 minutes, after being flipped.
• Shield Generators (all types) have had their range reduced.
• Exotic WvW equipment can now be salvaged. Badge gear yields badges. Tournament ticket gear yields standard exotic salvage materials.

Desert Borderland Changes

• Skysplitter damage reduced.
• Skysplitter now attacks all enemy gates, not just outer gates.
• Fire Keep lord difficulty somewhat reduced
• Air Keep lord difficulty somewhat increased
• Tower and Keep guard damage slightly decreased.
• Some Tower and Keep guards have had their CC durations reduced.
• Gate guard aggro range increased.
• Range to activate the Dolyak Protected Caravan buff increased.
• Certain very large capture points have had their radius reduced.
• Flame’s Embrace shrine bonus now grants 40% increased movement speed, instead of reducing burning duration. It still also grants immunity to lava damage.
• The north supply camp guards repositioned.
• Fire, Earth and Air shrine blessings have been converted into a single blessing that just increased movement speed by 40%.
• The objective walls that only act to block shortcuts have had their health significantly reduced.
• The north keep’s telepads now put a short duration debuff on players that prevents rapidly teleporting back and forth.
• Vista cinematics have been made smoother.
• Repositioned guards at shrines.
• Reduced the number of creatures on the map.
• Added more ranger pets to the map.
• Reduced the number of air turrets.
• Reduced the knockback distance of the air turret attack.
• Rearranged some jump pads.
• Keeps now have interior supply depots.
• Terrain changed in a few places that will open up additional paths.
• Tower cannons repositioned.
• Fire Keep mortars repositioned.
• Champion wyvern reduced to elite rank.
• Improved shrine tooltips.
• The Additional Guards upgrade will now also post guards outside breakable walls.
• Rebalanced the frequency of Oasis event dinosaurs spawning and the number of Power Cores required to turn-in.
• Oasis Power Cores will now ping the map when a new dinosaur spawns, or a player picks one up.
• Oasis Power Cores will now clean up properly after the event completes.
• Earth Keep rock maze control console cooldown increased.
• Earth Keep interior rock maze reworked to be less obstructive when only allied players are present. Half of the rock walls stay hidden until enemies show up.
• Skysplitter now creates camera shake, at the temple, while firing.
• Skysplitter now is marked on the map, during the event and while firing.
• Oasis event now has mapwide announcements and voice overs.
• Nights are less dark.

Bug Fixes

• Fixed a bug where life siphon damage was hitting object that normally can’t be hit.
• Fixed some lava locations that weren’t properly damaging players.
• Fixed a bug that caused camp guards to respawn faster than intended.
• Fixed a bug where the Inferno Transform buff would linger after leaving the transform.
• Fixed a number of terrain exploits.
• Added further protections against the elusive untargetable gate/wall bug.
• Fixed a bug where wood walls could not be repaired.
• Fixed a bug where waypoints were available for a few seconds between repel events.
• Fixed a bug where patrols wouldn’t respawn.
• Fixed a bug where supply depots sometimes wouldn’t update properly when empty.
• Fixed a bug where the Fire Keep could sometimes become randomly contested.
  //Old Patch Notes End

While you are at it, when is the supposedly guild chat about wvw overhaul coming?

sanctuary.1068:

SkyShroud.2865:

not new

this season is way easier to rank up and is funny how dev says it is harder to grind through this season when i can see much more diamonds and legends compare to the last

anet really need to stop looking a overall statistical unless they have a statistic analyst doing that which i highly doubt they have

And how do you know theres more diamonds & legendarys than last season? It looks about the same amount to me. Besides that, legendary & diamond players should stop thinking that they are of some special breed, theres many people who are of that skill level. So if you look at top 1000 on old leaderboard, at least 1000 people on both european and american servers should be legendary rank already.

depends on the timing, maybe u online at a timing where there were already a lot of diamonds and legends

the timing i play in, in previous season, the amount of diamonds and legend is countable so is noticeable difference

actually, when u guys are talking about MMR details, where you get that “details” from? what is the source? are you just speculating? if you are speculating? why are you so confident it works that way?

not new

this season is way easier to rank up and is funny how dev says it is harder to grind through this season when i can see much more diamonds and legends compare to the last

anet really need to stop looking a overall statistical unless they have a statistic analyst doing that which i highly doubt they have

ermm……

hate is too strong of a word, is more of a complain and disappointment

when you say they delivered, can you tell me what were delivered? then ask yourself this, is there any delays? then ask yourself another thing, is the the quality acceptable?

lets not talk about not enough contents or features.
lets just talk about what i asked. ask yourself this, how buggy it was for the final story at launch, did the QA did their job properly? scribe missing recipes, do you really expect that kind of quality? is raid content delayed? is squad delayed? is wvw delayed?

again, ask yourselves what actually were delivered and what weren’t, whats the quality of those items.

many servers are shrinking though T1 will continue to have a lot of people due to refugee from the lower servers. until the lower servers are completely dry up, T1 will still be lively enough to play with.

generally speaking, sea is rapidly shrinking, a lot of people went to play other games. division seems to be gaining popularity in sea.

honestly
this season is much easier to rank up compare to previous, so when one of the dev say this season is harder and reflect the skill level more. i find that hard to agree with

you just have to grind your way through and having multi classes help a lot. sometimes, you may end up in a team of 3 same class, able to switch out to something really important to your team will change the whole game around

ermm…it will be hard to kill a mes in 1v1 unless u a thief that can do a high burst, change position fast and evade

RP….means….roleplay
MMORPG means massive multiplayer online role playing game…

considering RP alone…role playing the character….
does people actually think that the character get strong overnight?
the character must undergo some training, repeating things to strengthen and continue to strengthen by repeating training, that is where grinding come about.

but if is a long leveling process, people then complain about the grind for leveling, it is really hard to satisfy people.

so, end up, they spread the grind to other places like getting items from dungeons.

i had a match just now with a mes that just keep going far
he cant kill far and always get killed, he juz keep doing it…

oh well….

the probability of losing 65 times in a row…….is really low
u sure it isn’t your problem?

i think i saw your name while passing through sapphire and now im in mid ruby, im glad i no longer team with any sapphire but ruby ppl can still be bad.

im still upset that im always being placed on the weaker team (consist of lower div) and fighting against stronger team (consist of higher div). i have seen a lot of ppl that reach legend in very short time showing their progress, they were never placed in such team like mine.

sparc.3649:

TorquedSoul.8097:

Dusty Moon.4382:

This is just ridiculous. Now whole guild, from JQ, have left that server and gone to TC to push TC to T1 and let JQ drop. This is just fair weather type of WvW but the usual for these people who like to manipulate glicko. This basically says, to me, that glicko needs to be scrapped.

Any ranking system could be manipulated by redistributing population. Glicko isn’t the problem, population balance is the problem.

For example, you could have a simple ladder ranking system and it to could be manipulated by moving population around.

So … you know Glicko …
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
~Inigo Montoya

^this^, the problem is “population balance” or “server stacking”. It’s funny that ANYONE thinks that by moving servers they’ll have fun again. I’ve been on AR since 3-day-head-start, therefore been with the server during it’s ups AND downs. AR once got up to what, T3/T4, now we sit at the very bottom of the barrel again T8/24th! Funny thing is, we’ve had many people leave that ended up just eventually disbanding anyways! I tried to warn people, “you think moving will make things any better”, they didn’t listen, and now they probably don’t even play the game any longer – because if you have any “issues” on one server (say for example internal guild issues), you’re going to have them on ANY server you play on. Sure things being different may keep you enticed for a LITTLE bit longer, but you’re ultimately doomed to quit, just depends how many times you’re willing to rinse lather and repeat before you do.

With that being said, and population balance being the issue; THAT is what NEEDS to be fixed by anet! It wouldn’t matter if everyone from T1 dropped all the way to T8 just to raise up the T8 servers, eventually things will wind up in the same exact place they are now; just with different server names in different “places”!

So why keep rinsing, lathering, and repeating? ANet really NEEDS to stop putting BANDAIDS on this situation too (EoTM, and all these “gimmicks”), they NEED to PROPERLY address population balance before everyone quits!

Although, at the same time – we technically don’t “need” anet to fix this for us, IF we as a community did it for ourselves. Although I think the realistic odds of this happening is about 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% Instead of “server stacking” why don’t all of you “peeps” from kitten split up and redistribute yourselves to T5-T8? Unless there’s something I’m not aware of, there’s not even any real reason to “PPT” or “win”, it’s a game for crap’s sake, PLAY to have FUN! If you’re not having fun on your outnumbered server, don’t just go add to the stack in a high pop server, start trying to get people to come join yours! if you’re not having fun on your stacked server, don’t just go re-stack another one, disperse yourselves! Although, that as I said is pretty much a dream, I don’t envision us “the community” ever actually doing that on our own, there’s likely a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of that happening. So I guess in the meantime we’ll have to wait to see if/what ANET comes up with that will FORCE us to disperse and more evenly distribute ourselves among all of the servers…

yes, moving servers do create problems but it isn’t the only reason why wvw reach this state

i do share the same sentiment that if people did not move server at launch and desperately stack on a few servers when it was announced that the free transfer shutting off. things wouldn’t become so chaotic in days /months/years after. this kind of damage has become irreversible unless anet decide to scrap all servers and recreate them to forcefully consolidate and disperse the population.

sorry, a coup is not possible.
if he is really doing as what you say he is doing, you can always start a new guild. if the new guild you started strive then yes, you are right. if the new guild didn’t, then, it is another story.

Rocketmist.5436:

SkyShroud.2865:

overhaul is coming and they willing to waste those $$, they sure have $$ to waste

Not sure the overhaul will be removing servers. Pretty sure the big “overhaul” which was going to remove servers got scrapped.

the details about overhaul is never released
rather than speculating what is and what it isnt, it is better to be safe than sorry.

edit: i just remember they said they gonna do a “guild chat” about wvw overhaul but it never came

overhaul is coming and they willing to waste those $$, they sure have $$ to waste

S2 is comparably easier to rank up than S1, with enough grind that is.

past and present, necro has one weakness…..stability
all u have to do is cc the kitten out of necro and necro will become kitten

elainom.2918:

Malediktus I have quite some respect for you as a fellow AP hunter. But would it be too hard to admit that you might not be good enough to carry your way out of the soloQ?

There has been proof that there’s no MMR hell and such and that if you cant climb it cant be ALWAYS the fault of everyone else but you.

People who are not pro have made it solo to legend, you need the capacity of be realistic with your own games, how you play them and tryhard, be it by the fotm build/class/being able to class switch if needed. Yes, when you are solo and enemy has trio/4man or you have a trio/4man with you it may look like you have little control on the possible outcome of the game. You’ll lose some, you’ll win some, this is where you need to try hard at all time to be the determining factor and be the extra winning chance. Doing so will result in your win ratio being higher than what the matchmaking is trying to force on you (the 50% win chance matchup based on mmr or whatever this stuff is coded).

Try hard, look back on your own games, whether you lose them or win them, be realistic of what happens there, what you could have done. It’s hard for a human being, especially in a video game he’s dedicated to, to admit that you may not have been as good as you think you are in it, but once you can do that, you can work on improvements and get better. Which is somethign a lot of players on this subforum cant do.

The ride to legendary in soloQ can be made, without being a pro or “MMR gifted” :
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Legendary-Division-186-Screenshots-SoloQ/first#post6048870

So dont give up, improvements can be made.

that thread doesnt prove much
in fact, in those screenshots, i have yet to see a matchup that show a complete lower division vs a complete higher division. i must say this dude is really lucky.

i too had winning streak but always stop at the final tier, in that final tier, there are a few complete lower tier vs a complete higher tier matchup which means d2vsd3, d3vsd4, d4,vsd5 kind. of course, winning those matchup dont give you 2 pip either, kitten bad incentive for winning ppl who are ranked higher than ur whole team

either way
this season is completely grindable but is really all down to your luck to see what team you match up with and against. you can also wait for the absolute weak players to grind their way up and then you climb ontop of them to go up.

Added screenshot for matt boss, taken a couple of days ago.

Edit: Updated the Raid screenshot for matt, didn’t know is a small thumbnail.

Scoring is like CTF but CTF on a 24 hours scale does seem a bit hard to relate.

Instead of scoring concept, I would suggest a more aggressive yet rewarding system. A system that is more war like than the current. Also, seeing that the overhaul is around the corner, in april or something, I do not know what the overhaul will bring. Some spectacle that server will no longer exist and replace by fraction like system. If that is so, what I suggest is instead of PPT, any fraction that lost their stronghold will be penalized such that they have significant negative buffs for few hours in their pve activities (less gold earn from dungeons, less drops, less xp earn, less karma, less everything) while the invaders that successfully taken the stronghold will gain golds, items and etc.

Then again, I doubt it will happen.

vesica tempestas.1563:

SkyShroud.2865:

when reviewers make their game reviews on mmorpg, they make it base on their first impression but never were done with consideration of the developer performance. afterall, is a mmorpg, it is not a single player game or focused game like fps/rts/etc. a through review is necessary if is a mmorpg.

gw2 on first impression did have great score. personally, i too will give gw2 a great score if base on first impression. however, mmorpg will require a greater standard of reviewing because unlike non-MMO titles, MMO title usually have more frequent updates.

considering the performance of the developer, gw2 will not receive a great score any more, at the best, is a good score, with the consideration that is b2p.

i do agree that gw2 is not a great mmorpg when take in consideration of the developer performance. however, there are things i do disagree with you because some of reasons seem more like a personal preferences.

what the hell is ‘developer performance’? compare GW2 to all the other AAAA mmo out there.

if u r comparing to other titles, that is not a review but a comparison.
the most basic developer performance review will be based on the track records

Evan Lesh.3295:

In season 1 every match was trying to be even, but this allowed players to grind through the ladder. Season 2 is the opposite of this, but players are clearly experiencing matches that are too volatile. Once players reach a division relative to their skill, the only blowout matches that should be happening would be from people coming late to the season. I feel there may be balance between the two styles of matchmaking that maintain prestige, but avoid an abundance of blowouts.

I disagree.

Season 2 is completely grindable. Reason being is that people do not drop down division. With that said, eventually, people of all skills level will reach ruby. Then, the people in those region will begin massacring each other and then step on top of each other to reach diamond. This process will keep repeating itself until finally, the bad skill players will reach legend. The fact that teams of lower division beating a team of higher division already proven that s2 is completely grindable and not only that, bad players with great stroke of luck getting carried up the ladder on the earlier stage.

In this season, I notice that you no longer gain 2 pip when winning against stronger players. Why is that so?

While I was climbing from sapphire to break into ruby, I had couple of matches where my team full of sapphire winning teams full of ruby. A team of sapphire beating a team of ruby, shouldn’t they be given greater rewards for that? People are really kittened when they beat supposedly higher ranked opponents but they are stuck at the lower rank themselves. There should be incentive for beating stronger team and punishment for losing to way weaker team.

so if u remember commander tag was 100g
do you remember why they made it 300g?

back then, people were complaining about commander tag being too accessible while those with multi characters are forced to purchase multi tag. those were the reasons why it become the tag today.

heck, i still remember being refunded only 100g while i bought 4 tags. many others bought the tag with 100g before patch and gotten themselves a 300g worth upgrade after the patch. feel so cheated.

when reviewers make their game reviews on mmorpg, they make it base on their first impression but never were done with consideration of the developer performance. afterall, is a mmorpg, it is not a single player game or focused game like fps/rts/etc. a through review is necessary if is a mmorpg.

gw2 on first impression did have great score. personally, i too will give gw2 a great score if base on first impression. however, mmorpg will require a greater standard of reviewing because unlike non-MMO titles, MMO title usually have more frequent updates.

considering the performance of the developer, gw2 will not receive a great score any more, at the best, is a good score, with the consideration that is b2p.

i do agree that gw2 is not a great mmorpg when take in consideration of the developer performance. however, there are things i do disagree with you because some of reasons seem more like a personal preferences.

it doesnt matter any more, a lot of people already stop caring. plenty of the remnants are taking this as a last straw

a lot of feedbacks were already given over the years, how many of those feedbacks were actually seriously considered?

even in that thread, they are doing nothing but reinstating what already mentioned.

if u r looking for a guild, drop me a ingame mail.

if ppl wanted to, they would have done so already while the tiny minority who have been doing it initially with the little power they had should by now given up.

Keviin Snow.5760:

i love wvw too but getting fed up us being out numbers
Anet really need to work on balancing wvw system
instead of 50 dh vs 3 cd player
sooner or later NO CD player gonna come wvw
reading back in 2014 CD server was ranked number 3
i wish guildwars 2 at some point like World of Warcraft with thier balance system

you mean 2013
but like all servers, there were problems and one lead to another like a vicious cycle.

dh does look like having a lot of hype, someone from them messaged me and asked me if i would like to move my guild there, yet to reply.

regardless, wvw as it is, is dying rapidly. any forms of hype is nothing but temporary. a lot of us are just waiting for this so-called wvw overhaul which beta supposedly coming in april or something.

i think is all the same

mmorpg in general can be both toxic and nice…
however, this is highly dependent on the activities and of course, the game design.

let just say that u are in a starting zone, players will expect that you are newbie and will not have much expectation from u

however, the moment u step into some highly advanced zone, there will some kind of expectation becoz u managed to reach there.

of cus, leveling and so on is really easy in gw2 but ppl still have that expectation subconsciously.

edit:
for example, right now pvp has a season.
once u start playing ranked, there will be expectations.
afterall, newbies are expected to play hot join or unranked.
so when u climb higher up the rank in ranked, expectations go higher.
of cus, if the game design is flawed, in ranekd case, bad players goes up the rank, people will start to rage becoz the reality is not reflecting the expectations.

i had a winning streak in ruby and then finally lost it…..in match that is lopsided, heck, ruby still plays amber, fighting randomly around the map

no big deal
i had a team of sapphire beat a team of ruby

there are tons of bad ruby players

as the season progress, there will be many bad diamond players as well
the fact that u dont drop down division is already keeping bad players up there

“fix” moa….
ok

fix ele too

ele not only has strong self heal, it has strong team heal

necro is great in team fight but valuable against cc
with enough cc, u can brutally destroy a full necro team.

haha, and some ignorant ppl were saying the alpine borderland is a simple off on switch and when the well informed ppl telling them is not like that, then they come up with some absurd claims about how it is….

the problem is that there are so many different options on the forums that anet has difficulty to identify which are consider logical and reasonable. of course, if they bother to look into details, they can identify that but i guess they just real lazy.

u can be sure anet did listen to some extend but they also listened to opinions that are far less critical.

i was really happy that i finally got out of the emerald last pip and winning streak my way to ruby, only to find half of the ruby players are worst than sapphire players.

edit: not to mention, i remember beating a team of ruby with a team of sapphire, it really makes you wonder how they get up there, it really makes you wonder if MMR truly is working as great as other claim. i will see how good the players in diamond are once i get there. who knows, maybe they might be worst than ruby.

why no1 complain about engineer aoe moa?
must be engineer not using it much, engineer shld start using them more

Bump, this isn’t listed in Issue Tracker and the problem still persist.

This isn’t a isolated problem but all guild missions that involve instancing have this issue which means both guild challenge and guild puzzle regardless of the mission contents.

nothing’s new
anet’s track records have made itself clear

sorry, if it can be done, it is already done. obviously, the programming to do so did not exist and making it will further delay the wvw overhaul.

many people are simply betting on that wvw overhaul, if it isnt satisfactory, goodbye wvw. it can be considered the last straw for many.

furthermore, a lot of things were already suggested or warned by players at least 2 years ago but either promptly ignored or players at that time do not agree with it as they don’t see the consequences of it until 2 years later.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

Be fair, compare any other elite to Moa and tell me it’s in line with other elites? The other elite too you can counter (a lot easier most of the time) and their effect is FAR less important on most any battle. Heck, when you Moa a tornado or a Lich you not only counter that elite you also turn the table on the poor guy who also invested his elite. And other professions can’t double elite even if they are weaker.

but you have to consider the overall usefulness of mesmer as well.
by nerfing moa, will mesmer still be useful? thats the question.