Oh my friend, if that was the case, it would’ve been so kitten glorious. We wouldve relied less on SA and actually had to sacrifice a little something for it.
Nonono. Don’t listen to most of these people here. Generally accepted duel server rules are no elites over 90s CD (basically no rampage, lich, or moa). Anything past that is fair game. Hell, to make things interesting, you couldve made the final round a make or break moment where they try to counter build each other. If they tie up, they move onto the tie breaking round with the builds they just changed to.
The pro tournaments allow rampage/lich etc because most higher leveled teams are capable of co-ordinating themselves properly to avoid it (and they’re not dumb enough to try tanking it). They don’t allow vamp runes now because they’re generally cheesy.
(edited by SlayerSixx.5763)
Thief in a great place? Reaper and revenant would like to have a word with you, my friend.
^or they could make condition cleanse prioritize the condition with the most stacks/DPS, kinda like how steal prioritizes stab.
^purdy much that. Don’t forget the vamp runes. The game isn’t balanced for any kind of fight if you look at it seriously. Not 1v1, not 5v5, not 2v1. Its just a clusterkitten of variables.
Huh. I would’ve placed a ban on lich/rampage/moa in general since it was a 1v1 tournament. Warrior could’ve ended each duel if he whipped out rampage from the start and went hard.
Thief is generally a free kill unless you’ve racked up a few thousand hours. Guards can eat through over half of your HP by just blocking (I’ve had my shield of wrath crit for 6-7k on a thief before and he was just running marauder). Warriors can sneeze and finish you. Mesmers may not have as much stealth as you do, but they have an asston and the ability to quite literally one shot you. Necros and engis will tear you apart with constant aoe (not that much of an issue if you initiate and keep them locked down).
^All of this before HoT
After HoT? Prepare to get rekt.
I like having condition users split their offenses, but then you’d actually have to develop some sort of active defense. As it stands now, burn guardians (who’re all or nothing) and condition mesmers have the abilities required to actively defend while dropping their conditions. You could also consider condi engi as well, but then you’d need to really look at condition builds and have them do some actual active play as opposed to spamming blocks/invulns/stealths.
Something special for condition mesmer, for instance, is to remove the stealth and give them more ondemand reflects, teleports, and stuns. The reflects and stuns would be short duration, naturally, and the teleports wouldn’t move you far, the reflects would take the projectile and reflect back 100% of the damage + 4-5 stacks of confusion/torment. The stuns would stun a target for a whole 1 second if the mesmer actually interrupts something that isn’t an auto attack and apply 4-5 stacks of confusion/torment. This build would also have no full on stun breaks and only have its teleports to reposition if they’ve been knocked down (like phase retreat), meaning that thieves and hammer warriors would be a hard matchup for them, but they’d still be beatable if played right.
I’m not against a condition build. I’m simply against how passive (for lack of a better term) they feel. As conditions are now, its basically drop the condi bomb > run in circles/stealth/block > hope they don’t cleanse > ??? > profit.
For those of you who remember, tronjeremy had this s/d condi thief build. I’m not sure if it still works after the 6/23 patch, or if it’ll continue to work (assuming it currently works) after HoT, but it was a great example of what a condi build and the general playstyle of a condi user should be in my eyes.
One thing that bothered me was why the warrior kept moving after the mesmer bombed him x.×. Another thing is why the mesmer didn’t bring moa after the first fight. That fight made no sense to me x.×.
This is actually a very sweet suggestion, but you also have to consider what the grandmasters would do. What would suggest they replace the GM traits with?
For instance, if you using the ground slam (bound, I think it was called), successfully dodge and attack and land the slam, it should knock the people hit by it down (or up, for lols). Call it moment of inertia or something along these lines.
This is a tournament for newbies. I honestly doubt class or rune restrictions matter much.
Efforts made to balance and proper dev communication.
/thread
WvW guard stacks. As in the bonus stats you get after you’ve ranked certain WvW skills and killed a few guards
Wings.
/15char
That norn is terrifying. I’d sooner run back to base than fight that
You don’t have PvP experience? You’re in for a rough ride buddy. Air/fire sigils are base for your D/P. I prefer leeching and energy on my SB, since I use that when I need to gtfo. Pack runes are an all rounder, but vampire also works.
As for basics to watch out for (I’m an sPvP main, with a smidge of WvWvW experience):
Mesmer is usually your biggest threat. Their initial combo goes along the lines of:
Mirror blade + blink right into your face > shatter > mind stab. If you’ve avoided this, you’ll have to deal with the usual SW/T. SW2 summons a clone that leaps at you. They then dodge once and swap places with the clone that leapt at you, which subsequently immobilizes you. After this, they usually flurry + shatter again. Torch and their utilities all grant them tons of stealth, so they’ll try to stealth instagib you a lot of the time. Naturally, you have more stealth and more mobility, so take your time shredding them.
Burn guardians. Their combo is even simpler than mesmer’s, but just as deadly:
Burn guardians (guardians in general) have a million and one tells and are reeeeeallllly slow. Unless you wanna wait a million years to wear down their blocks while hopping in and out of stealth, get used to your SB.
Generally, burn guardians are an easier kill than your age old power medi because they either sacrifice their GS for SW/F which would mean a lot less AoE or they sacrifice focus for torch which means their only form of mitigating damage comes from shelter, VoC (virtue of courage), and RF. All of these blocks come to a grand total of 5ish or so seconds of block. After that, they’re essentially defenseless. Your steal should strip their second round of stability (assuming they chose that over the AoE burn on proccing their passive burn), after that its smooth sailing.
^to get to that point, you have to dodge their initial burst. They usually open with SC/TT which is usually chains>smite>activate zealots flame from here, they have two options of attacking
1st is the flame toss into GS whirl (assuming GS and not SW/F). If you didn’t dodge this, you’re already dead. If they have SW/F, you’ve been given a little bit of a grace period for dealing with their burst, but still dodge their sword flurry.
2nd is when you aren’t facing idiots. They’ll usually activate their ZF and keep the fire burning on them as they whirl into you. The full duration of this burn combined with the second one they get from critting (which isn’t impossible if they’re running valor) will, again, kill you outright. Problem a lot of people have is dodging the initial scepter immobilize. If you dodge that, dodging the rest will be cake and the fight will practically be yours.
General rule of thumb for guardians is to always open with scepter. General rule of thumb VS guardians is to watch them carefully, wait for that first wave of their scepter hand and then dodge because the scepter immobilize is basically two waves of the hand. The skill completes the cast on the second wave of their hand more or less. Once you’ve dodged the chains, they can’t reliably land their smite, they can’t reliably land their fire so they’ll be forced to open earlier with their GS. Once you see the swap to GS, you know the whirl and teleport are coming so you should already be dodging/steal thing to cleanse w.e burn might be coming your way. Once you’ve dealt with these, guard is complete cake thanks to 0 mobility.
Oh and I think this is a given, but don’t stand in their flaming circle :P.
Ranger and necro are both food. Just dodge ranger’s entangle and if you see the ranger refusing to budge from one particular spot, he’s most likely got traps there. Slap him with SB OR you can force the traps with shadow step and then shadow step back to cure conditions and break the stun. Afterwards, the rest is easy business since they have 0 defenses after this. For necros, dodge the fear and dont hit them when they have spectral armor up so you don’t feed them LF and run if they ragelich, come back when its over.
Vs eles, its a little easier since stats are different here, but you usually want to avoid the following skills:
-ride the lightning + updraft. Dodge this and they can’t land burning speed. Usually, most d/d Eles are brainless, so they’d already be going to burning speed you, but you’ve already dodged. They then try to hit you with drakes breath, but you should’ve already bp>hs+steal>bs them and follow up with auto attacks. The damage from this makes them panic into water, which is perfect. Once they’ve healed, hit them with the stolen item to chill the hell out of them and continue stabbing away/dodging as you see fit. At this point, they have earth ready and air is almost back up. If they continue pelting you with water autos, they’re planning to swap air and use shocking aura and that weakness. Here, you have two options, kite with SB or stealth and get venom ready to interrupt and clean them up. I’m not counting fresh air or staff since they’re both food for stealth.
There’s warrior and engi, but their builds are too diverse for a general rotation or treatment and I gotta go.
Best of luck shanking people.
Some people learn. Some people don’t. I got my kitten kicked gratuitously for as long as I can remember. Then, something more or less clicked and bam, pulling 200 points average without point kitten.
1v1s are mostly really easy, but if it had to be, hardest are burn guardians and those new fookin trap rangers, both heavy condi. Any tips?
Assuming meta thief
Burn guardians (guardians in general) have a million and one tells and are reeeeeallllly slow. Unless you wanna wait a million years to wear down their blocks while hopping in and out of stealth, get used to your SB.
Generally, burn guardians are an easier kill than your age old power medi because they either sacrifice their GS for SW/F which would mean a lot less AoE or they sacrifice focus for torch which means their only form of mitigating damage comes from shelter, VoC (virtue of courage), and RF. All of these blocks come to a grand total of 5ish or so seconds of block. After that, they’re essentially defenseless. Your steal should strip their second round of stability (assuming they chose that over the AoE burn on proccing their passive burn), after that its smooth sailing.
^to get to that point, you have to dodge their initial burst. They usually open with SC/TT which is usually chains>smite>activate zealots flame from here, they have two options of attacking
1st is the flame toss into GS whirl (assuming GS and not SW/F). If you didn’t dodge this, you’re already dead. If they have SW/F, you’ve been given a little bit of a grace period for dealing with their burst, but still dodge their sword flurry.
2nd is when you aren’t facing idiots. They’ll usually activate their ZF and keep the fire burning on them as they whirl into you. The full duration of this burn combined with the second one they get from critting (which isn’t impossible if they’re running valor) will, again, kill you outright. Problem a lot of people have is dodging the initial scepter immobilize. If you dodge that, dodging the rest will be cake and the fight will practically be yours.
General rule of thumb for guardians is to always open with scepter. General rule of thumb VS guardians is to watch them carefully, wait for that first wave of their scepter hand and then dodge because the scepter immobilize is basically two waves of the hand. The skill completes the cast on the second wave of their hand more or less. Once you’ve dodged the chains, they can’t reliably land their smite, they can’t reliably land their fire so they’ll be forced to open earlier with their GS. Once you see the swap to GS, you know the whirl and teleport are coming so you should already be dodging/steal thing to cleanse w.e burn might be coming your way. Once you’ve dealt with these, guard is complete cake thanks to 0 mobility.
Oh and I think this is a given, but don’t stand in their flaming circle :P.
Well, I can honestly say I’ve never seen ANYONE do that, but that is some craaaaaaaaazy kitten. Hope it stays in hotjoin until they fix it.
Idk what a hack would even look like in this game. Can’t have aimbot or wallhacks, since you can do that legally. What hacks?
But teefs need to know their vectors for more shadow step rek.
Funny, I find D/D ele and medi guard to be a quick and easy kill.
P/P master race.
….that’s some serious hacks man.
ILLERMINUTTY CONFIRMED
I know to deal with the clones and dodge, but sometimes they just instagib you with their wombo combo whenyou arent looking and make you sad.
^careful, you’re about to start with the biggest lover of the build you hate.
Hated fights are probably mesmer. Everyone else is eh to easy.
That’s your problem. You’re operating on what YOU think is right when the reality is completely different. You spoke about low MMRs earlier and why a <2s burst from my warrior sounded improbable vs decent players, but then you talk about people taking damage from your symbols? You could have 30k HP and still not have enough, especially during this meta (see necro).
Vuln on symbol is in the zeal line. Virtues are mandatory for faster VoJ procs and aoe VoJ (also CD reduction on PF). Valor is mandatory for the sustain and CD reductions across the board. Radiance gives better burn damage than zeal. If you’re running virtues/zeal/radiance, you have 0 sustain. There is absolutely no way you know what you’re talking about. Please stop, this is getting painful.
That was cruel and unusual punishment roboti.
honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.
i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.
I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.
Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.
nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.
lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.
Wow, if that’s true then yes, sic ’em is the worst. Until HoT when stealth gyro is playable anyways.
Yeah, lock on does require a hit. Although since the majority of thieves blow their dodges before refuging as a last resort, and the ones that know not to do that are usually good enough to kill me without it, that’s rarely an issue tbh. It’s sad how much fun reveal skills are when you’re the one doing it, as you know how much of a middle finger it is to the class.
stealth gyro has a cast animation, and a shockwave-like effect (like mass invis) that you can dodge.
like i said, i don’t mind being outplayed. if someone foresees my plays and counters it, that’s cool. it’s when i have no way to defend myself from it that i call bullkitten.
Ohohohoh, you’re lucky you’re said this in the presence of people who are pro thief. I suggest you re-read that last sentence and try to figure out whats wrong about it
I suddenly have an urge to play melee ranger xD.
That last clip. Such carry. I hope that ele sucked yer kitten after that.
Kudos to you then. I would’ve high tailed it out of there or tried to find some abusable terrain (its funny what you can do with your surroundings when you know what goes through rocks and what doesn’t).
Big tell, maybe, but if you bait the dodges with warrior’s 102043 moderately high damage skills and then land a bulls charge, there’s nothing the target can do. Baiting is something guard can’t do. You’re telling me that you can’t dodge the one burst combo DPS guardians have been doing since the start of the game? You mean to tell me that you actually stand next to the guard and let his ZF passively apply its burn? Seriously? Do you have any idea how powerful DH is going to be? Don’t wrack your brain over the question, they won’t be. Why is that? Because of traps. Why are traps so weak? Because they’re ground targeted (also have more of a delay for activation vs PF, but the difference is negligible). Why is the difference negligible? Because with all of the mobility flying around and no way for guard to stay on their target, its a waste of a slot. Why is PF any different? For the classes that can’t kite guard, they have other ways of dealing with the burn. For the classes that can kite guard, then its the easiest thing ever. The burns don’t just magic their way onto you.
Burning JI for a stun break only? Oh my. I think we’ve located the problem.
Have a nice day, sir.
If you use shadow step right, you should be able to use it for both gap closing/opening AND the cleanse. Burn is the only condition you should REALLY be worried about, since if the fight is going wrong and you’ve got torment and confusion (sounds like condi mes), you’ve got time to decide if you’re screwed and feel like skipping out and returning when the mes leaves the point. Also, I doubt anyone will want to run condi anything when reaper and scrapper drop.
By the way, how much condi cleanse do you think the other classes rock? Engis usually have no more than 2. Warrior usually only has brawlers recovery that counts for 1. No need to discuss cele d/d since they’re OP everywhere. Burn guard usually replaces CoP with PFand PF only cleanses 3 (more if they feel like running out of their circle and waiting a bit before entering in) but you shouldn’t let them do that (especially since they dont have stab on courage meaning aside from JI, they have 0 stun breaks) and you have some of the most single target CC in the game. Necro is necro, they live off of conditions. Mesmer is in an even worse position (they’d can’t build for condi cleanse without losing damage or stealth).
If anything, the ability to cleanse an unlimited amount of condis because of an unlimited amount of stealth is actually OP.
The teleport is instant, that’s it. He’s slow. You pressure him with range, he’ll be forced to pop the port to begin pressuring, but you should know its coming. 3k ticks for 3s is 9k+his pitiful 3k whirl and that’s being generous all amounts to 12k burst. On my warrior, with a difference in speed compared to my guardian that can only be described as the distance between the heavens and the earth, I can land a nearly 17k burst with one skill NEARLY instantly (thanks to heightened focus). In terms of defense, my warrior is no slouch either since he has 20k HP base, double EP, and I’m running defiant stance for kittens and giggles. The bleed and poison only happen after one of you initiates. Don’t be an idiot and let him initiate so he doesn’t get the benefit of his sigils right off the bat if you aren’t confident in your ability to dodge his condi burst?
You’re complaining about not being able to create 2-300 range gap (i don’t remember the exact radius) from the slowest guy on the field? What in the actual kitten?
I guess bads will always be bads.
Uh, SA reducing damage by 25% as long as you’re stealthed. Not as powerful as prot, but it stacks with it. I know that doesn’t validate choov’s comment, buy thought I’d throw it out there.
Also, pain response, shadow step (and if you’re intent on not stealthing) signet of agility is 1 + another 1 for every nearby ally (idk cap). If you run S/D, 1 per SW2 return. Withdraw and HiS theoretically cleanse 3 (+1 on withdraw if you run trickster).
Thief has enough condi cleanse outside of stealth IMO.
Aaaaalso, if you know the player knows how to land skills in between dodge casts (treat everyone like they’re intelligent until proven otherwise), be smarter and have a little something something ready for him when your roll is about to end. Its not rocket science people.
Learn where 1200 range starts. If he uses it at less than that, he wasted his best gap closer and he’d well within range for you to interrupt/watch the whirl happen. If he starts whirling and you aren’t close to him, you know what he’s about to do. The bleed and poison do negligible damage and although the poison serves an alternate purpose, you shouldn’t even be getting hit by their ridiculously obvious tells. If he lands his whirl without teleporting, I have no idea what to tell you. If he lands his smite without chain (which has its own tell), again, I have no idea what to tell you. If he lands his fireball (which is glitchy as kitten), again, nothing to say. Guard, in general (and especially the burn build), has no extra CCs or bursts they can throw at you to bait a dodge or stun break so if you aren’t bad, avoiding it is actually a very simple task if he doesn’t try instagibbing you from behind a wall.
Also, how’s about you remove the conditions BEFORE they pass that 3 threshold. The sigils only proc when they’re in battle so the poison and bleed aren’t happening if they insta gib you from behind a wall. If they ARE in battle, them swapping to GS should already be a big fat “GET READY TO DODGGGGEEEEEE” call out. Basically, them attacking you head on is them being super polite and announcing their attacks.
To add some humour to this generally salt filled thread:
Everything you need to do to deal with a burn guard, assuming not blind
Well, you could always keep a SB handy in your inv for moving around out of combat. Ah well, as long as it does the job then ain’t no use fixing what isn’t broke, eh :P?
Warriors running stomp? That makes me sad. So very sad.
Poison, boonstrip, and burst. One or all three if you want to rek them mercilessly. If you don’t have a thief or mesmer to coordinate a burst with, idk what to say :P. Necro boon corrupting also works for shutting a lot of his sustain down. Idk much about engi, so I can’t give specific builds/combos.
Level/rank difference is pretty much time spent. Stats and traits are all the same. As much as everyone hates to admit, the only thing that matters in sPvP is your skill. Oh and don’t be naked, you’ll lose armor for that but it doesn’t matter what armor you’re wearing as long as you’re wearing it.
Oh and as a lot of the above posters mentioned, meta battle.com is a great site. Use it as a template though, since you won’t run the build the same way the build maker uses it, but it’ll give you an idea of what is expected of you at top tiers.
Unless the guardian teleports from behind LOS, you have no excuse as to why you didn’t see that big blue burning man coming towards you. Or the subsequent fireball. Or the big blue burning circle. Or his incredibly slow GS animations. Or the fact that his entire bomb relies on one condition and you deserve to be dropped by conditions of you don’t have at least ONE condi cleanse on your bar/trait lines.
Then you might argue that they could jump in the middle of a team fight. There’s no way you could focus all of your efforts on avoiding him when there are at least 2 more guys trying to bash your head in….
Unless you realize that there are certain fights you shouldn’t stick around to fight when the outcome is soooo obvious. People assume thief is the only class that should skip out of bad encounters. I believe everyone, excluding that poor burn guard with 0 out of combat mobility, has no excuse as to why they stuck around to get rekt. I can’t even count how many times Ive seen someone pop rampage or lich and then the enemy just…idek wtf he was doing. Looked like he tried running but decided to stay and fight, then got slapped and then tried running again but was afraid his team mates would rage at him for running so he comes back and get slapped again. Then he cries about it on the forums. Learning to rotate isn’t a thief only requirement.
Well, if the reveal is as bad as everyone says it is (I didn’t run into many scrappers), then you just have to make the most of what you’ve got until/if anet balances out things. This is assuming you actually enjoy playing thief more than you do crying.
The mobility is good for running or just map movement, but not many things (if any) could outrun a thief determined to catch them if they’ve been put in combat.
Also, idk if this is from my time spent as a guard, but I honestly find axe/shield warriors to be cake. Once you get used to the rate at which they build adrenaline, you KNOW that shield bash is coming and when its coming. If they have an alternate weapon set, its an even greater tell in my opinion. If its LB, you can tell they’re about to pull some funny business if they whip out the pin down (also with it’s own obvious animation) and swap to axe. If its GS, they’ll use their 4-5-3 combo to close the gap, cripple and deal damage in order to make landing the shield bash and evicerate easier, so you just KNOW to evade/get shadow step ready. If its hammer, they’ll usually attempt to land their backbreaker (since they don’t wanna burn adrenaline on Earthshakers). TBH, the weakness application doesn’t mean much if you know what to dodge (although it means a aloooooot vs other stealthers, but I don’t like fighting them because it just turns into a waiting game).
Also, in zergs and group fights, nothing beats instantly churning out 9k unloads on a backliner and instantly ripping them out of the equation.
Thanks to everyone talking about how OP burn builds are, I decided to try one. It is definitely fun.
A few thoughts:
1. It is way easier to apply condis than it is for someone to remove them.
2. It is insanely easy to play
3. Does higher burst than someone who is specced in zerker or maurader.
4. Being able to run rabid or carrion is really nice since I get either vit or toughness. Cele is good as well.For those of you who haven’t tried, definitely do it. Burn guard, burn engi, burn ranger, or cele ele. All are good. It might be tough in the top end play, but for the other 98% of you, it will work well and is by far the easiest way to play PvP.
1. Duh? Any offense needs to be greater than its associated defenses or else the fight goes nowhere.
2. Against baddies, sure. You get wrecked by someone packing Sigil of Generosity. Yeah, a piece of equipment counters your build.
3. Not true, just easier to land because people don’t know what to dodge. Zerker burst is definitely way higher.
4. That is nice, yes, but also a requirement. Condition builds need more time to kill, so it helps if you can actually delay dying.
qft
Hard to catch is so good. I wish it wasn’t locked behind acro x.×.
BTW, personally, I find SB to be kinda useless in a fight. I’ve been running D/P + P/P lately and it has been working wooooooonders. I’m certain you could make it work with S/D even better (unload+basi venom > swap > sw2> slashslashslash while tossing in evades at your discretion > pull away from initial port point > use sw2 to return at 1200 range > swap back to P/P) I doubt any build could tank all of that damage and all of this, if done right, means you would’ve probably dodged everything without burning a single utility. I remember constantly sending a d/d ele and rifle/hammer warrior back to spawn constantly last night, but they managed to drop me once they brought their ranger buddy around (3v1 too stronk).
-stats revealed training- welp, looks like perma power boost.
Idk man, I don’t use vamp runes on my thief and I don’t feel like they’re necessary. Also, the whole point was for it to hurt offensive builds since Anet needs to deviate away from this every class has access to everything but can’t do everything as well as everyone else can because reasons and that’s why any effective nerfs can’t happen.
Sweet vid man. I’m just wondering why you didn’t erase those annoying NPCs while hopping in and out of stealth. Also, in this final fight, was that a champion mob? If so, why didn’t you just drag the warrior into it and let him die xD?