Guild Wars 2

Vol.7601:

Maybe John Smith felt that it was time to have some deflation in the economy…

/SELLSEVERYTHING

ZOMG the sky is falling!

/BearMarket

What does “soccer punch” mean? Players don’t use their hands when playing soccer. Maybe a better term would be “hockey punch”?

1) You get no say
2) If you’re successful with an appeal, and another player reports your name, you might be back to square one.

TC is probably the only server that can pull something like this off.

I’m not sure if you realize that dungeon skins aren’t the only thing people farm dungeons for.

I’ve said it before, and I think I’ll be saying it again for years to come:

Speculation does not equal Manipulation.

John Smith.4610:

I think if anything this was a lesson in how efficient the market is and is a great argument against that idea.

Chalk another one up for JS!

Prices of common and uncommon dyes won’t get too cheap, since another use for them is to MF for upgraded dyes.

You bring up a good point about account bound UnID’d dyes. If the duplicates offered are account bound, then tradeable UnID’d dyes can still be valuable for IDing or Gift of Color crafting.

Remember, while Laurels are a guaranteed way to purchase UnID’d dyes, they are also time gated.

There was a mini bubble today, but I have a feeling that the market still has life in it for the next few weeks. One day before, and up to when the update hits, you might see a sudden spike in prices, which would be the time to sell. After that, we don’t know if UnID’d dyes will be treated like Silver Doubloons on the TP.

Skins are different from having a Legendary weapon that can swap stats.

KarateKid.5648:

I saw #1 in your bullets, but where’d you see #2 (specifically, that dye drop rates would be adjusted)? If that’s not true, the whole theory is overstated… I won’t say “false”, because there will still be some level of increased rarity coming out of this.

If I missed it, I apologize in advance; but I don’t recall reading that.

It’s found on the blog post here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/dyes-in-the-new-account-wardrobe/

Part of it says as follows:

Guild Wars 2 Team

With dyes becoming account unlocks, the demand for dye will decrease and unidentified dyes will no longer drop as loot but will still be available from the Mystic Forge and select in-game rewards.

All your questions are answered here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/dyes-in-the-new-account-wardrobe/

Even with prices as high as they are now, there’s still room for growth. The first 24 hours are crucial, so people should consider buying now. It’s never too late to join a party.

Due to the upcoming dye changes, there’s now potential investment opportunity. Unidentified dye drop rates will be nerfed next month, and has the markings of a profit making bubble.

Bubble Explanation: There are two things going on here. 1) There’s a need to unlock dyes for accounts and 2) There will be less UnID’d dye drops. For the completionists out there, many might want to fill their accounts with all 382 colors. By acting now, TP players can take advantage of these people by focusing on the Dye Markets. The upcoming increase in demand, and the pending hit to supply should mean prices will climb across the board. People will invest in ID’d common and uncommon dyes from the TP (since it’s cheaper), and will play with RNG for the more expensive rare ones. This bubble will be short lived, as times goes on, more and more people will have unlocked all the dyes they need. Demand will wane, and the only reason to retain UnID’d dyes will be for the Gift of Color.

Speculation 1: After the bubble bursts, UnID’d prices will drop, but individual ID’d dye prices should keep steady. New players or alt accounts will want specific dye unlocks, so that should keep demand up. There should still be a demand for those UnID’d dyes, albeit not as high as the initial rush in the next month or so.

Speculation 2: The bubble may burst for dye IDing, but might remain steady for Bifrost crafters. Depending on how badly drop rates are nerfed, UnID’d dyes could be Silver Doubloons v2.0 going forward.

Conclusion: Either way you look at it, prices should climb temporarily. How high it goes, no one can be sure. But if you want to turn a quick profit, start acting right away.

This whole mess could be fixed if the OP just deleted all his items. If he feels like he’s cheating people by selling items at market value, what better way to rebel against the system than to reduce his portion of the market supply.

Tater.4059:

I am constantly asked from support to verify information that I do not know.

Therein lies your problem. Customer Support agents need to verify your identity through security questions. If you can’t answer questions that you should know, then you can’t get help. Period.

If they allowed you to call them, and change your e-mail without these verifications, what’s not to say that I could call and change your e-mail to one of my own? Then I could take over your account. You wouldn’t want that now would you?

I’ll make this reply quick, since I finally have a project to do at work. If the Chinese version of GW2 does not allow for Gold → Gem Exchanges, then it will effectively be P2W. Paying players will have access to items that non-paying players can’t get. Again, Chinese version only. BUT… we need to see how changes are done with the feedback from their Beta. Kong Zhong wanted GW2 to be different from the current F2P and Sub model games available, which is why they have a similar “buy the box, free to play” model like the US and EU. P2W microtransactions are more acceptable (or tolerated for some) in the Asia region, so it won’t surprise me if they do add some elements.

Overall, I’ll state again that GW2 is not a P2W game as it currently stands. But that’s not to say that I wouldn’t buy a VIP package if offered in our version.

Since I have the backing via the testimony of experienced game developers, I’m actually not wrong. If you noticed above, even the quotes Leo provided support the definition that I’m defending.

Edit – Sad. I have nothing to do at work. I need more debates!!! I guess I’ll take a couple of hours off for lunch.

The idiom actually means: a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile; or that to continue in any endeavour (physical, mental, etc.) is a waste of time as the outcome is already decided.

The P2W debate ended long ago. I’m just helping you to understand that by correcting your misunderstanding of what the term means.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Ponku.7925:

Your argument is not as valid as arguments about bringing vendors back. Very few ppl just deleted the items now...

How do you know that? Wait you don’t. If in some odd case you do know that as fact I’d love to see your data to support it.

I can confirm that I threw away all my left overs after the update hit.

Essence Snow.3194:

Nope………lol…..You!!!!!!! It’s the heart of soul of your definition…which is dated btw.

Dated, but remains true to this day. Just like the idiom “beating a dead horse”.

raubvogel.5071:

Great you guys agree. As a melee you have to work and as a ranged you have to camp. So theres is melee punishing. I’m satisfied.

Correction, melee is only punishing if you can’t play it well. To that extent, Ranged players are punished because the damage output is far less than what a Melee user can dish out.

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s not the exact same. That’s the reason you’re wrong.

But it’s the heart and soul of what P2W is, so that’s the reason why you’re wrong.

Exactly. So if you pay real life cash to have advantages over non-real life cash paying players, that’s a P2W model. But when those advantages are provided to both real life cash paying players and non-real life cash paying players, it’s a level playing field, and thus not P2W.

Moshari.8570:

Actually, I probably would have been satisfied if it had been in the patch notes from the previous patch. Patch notes are always linked in the login screen when they are released. That hits every single player. Now if you were to argue it is their own fault for not reading those….I would agree with you. Because then it is entirely on the player to read the thing that was thrown right in front of them. It’s actually been shown that far more people read the patch notes than read the forums…or posted it not only in the “news” section, but also in the “battle for lions arch” section in addition to the patch notes. A lot of people don’t read the “news” section unless there is a problem.

They used in-game mail to tell me about WvW point reset…but I agree I do not want to be spammed for everything like that.

As I said, I really just want ANET to start taking player earned equity seriously and to think about it before they do things.

I also still think that we won’t see a lot of angry players until this new merchant arrives and people still cant’ use their heirlooms or belongings….I know most of my guild-mates are holding onto that hope…but they don’t come here.

Just to add, I received no in-game mail to explain that my traits were reset. I read the patch notes, but completely forgot about it. So as I was playing, I wondered why building/repairing took so long, why I got no Guard stacks, and why my Cata did so little damage to walls.

My fault completely.

Essence Snow.3194:

If you paid for that shortcut using rl cash, then yes in the Mario example it would be. (ofc given that being the options have the same objective) The objective needs to stay constant between those things compared.

But I paid nothing for it, and yet saved time (the objective). What difference does it make if I paid real life cash or exchanged playing time to achieve this?

mtpelion.4562:

I am willing to pay you 6c per Jute Scrap though, if it will alleviate your angst over being offered too much.

Vikkela.7261:

No, no, no, don’t sell to him, sell to me, I’ll offer you 5c each!

I’m willing to allow the OP to pay me to accept his Jute.

Essence Snow.3194:

It has to be since the paying is replacing something. Since it replaces the time and effort costs to get to the same objective it essentially becomes n-1 (1 being that which is being replaced). The -1 is the advantage/win in P2W thus impossible to not be P2W when present.

But then with your reasoning, paying customers are at a disadvantage, since paying (or playing) for conveniences replaces the time and effort to play the game (in a sense), they lose out on content. Thus by your standards, when I took the shortcut warp pipe from 1-2 to 4-1 in Super Mario Bro, I just P2W.

VideoGamermike.5813:

These are items I’m more or less just throwing away as junk half the time, I wanted to put them in the market because there are likely players who aren’t a bit overstocked in copper like I am, so I figured I could throw out some cheap salvage for people who needed them, while still making a handy profit, a lot more than I would get in shops. Instead, I got pushed to sell my items at prices that in no way reflect that idea, or even how I got it. I feel like I’m being pushed into cheating people out of their money by means of ‘market value.’ THATS where my problem is, for those people who arent able to get many of those items and -only- get them from the market, yes, the market value is by essence, the only way they can think about a profit, but thats not me. I’m out getting these items, it takes no effort at all to get these items, there more or less -trash- to me.

This is where you’re misunderstanding the whole GW2 free market. If a player is willing to pay “x” amount for an item, how are you cheating them? If you’re against making money by selling to someone willing to pay, then you can always just unload your goods at a Merchant, and take the base value.

On a side note, I’ve never met anyone who was this anti-capitalist, where they’d rather lose money, than participate in an economy.

They actually are the same, being that both paying and non-paying players have access to the same items.

The inherent trait of a P2W model is that a paying player has an advantage over a non-paying player. So if a game business model provides this same advantage to both evenly, it cannot be considered P2W anymore.

Essence Snow.3194:

Your adding in other independent variables that alter the outcome. It doesn’t work that way. It defeats the comparison.

So does the comparison of “saving time” for paying customers over “saving time” for non-paying customers. In the end, both “saved time”, so it’s not P2W.

Iberrang.8546:

Hey all,

I made my account name based on my family name a while ago and now I just feel like it’s invading my privacy, I just don’t feel comfortable playing this way anymore. I asked to change it for something more fictional but they said they don’t change it upon request which doesn’t make sense since it’s a privacy issue.
Don’t I have the right for privacy?

I Google’d your name, and can’t find you. I think you’re safe for now.

Essence Snow.3194:

It surely plays a very large part in it. A non playing player cannot save the same amount of time b/c they have to spend time playing in order to obtain the same advantage.

One obtains it right away from paying via rl cash and the other spends time to obtain it. Given that they are starting from the same point and the only variables are paying with cash vs converting actually playing, the cash will always exceed the conversion.

But you’re not differentiating the time spent to purposely farm Gold for Gem Store items, and the time spent playing the game as normal, and using the Gold to exchange for Gems, thus creating a bonus. But let’s look at your “saving time concept” first:

Example: I have a insta level 20 scroll, and 60 level scrolls, so I can make a new character and be at max level 80 within a minute after creation. I played SPvP for hours of fun with no intent on farming the Glory for the level up items. I just happened to have thousands of Glory points to spend.

So when you make the argument that I’m saving time by using a “P2W item” (by your definition), you’re completely ignoring the fact that my “time” spent was used for something else. I did not “spend time” to “save time”. Every hour I spent in SPvP was meaningful and well worth it.

Of course all this is moot, since “saving time” = convenience item. And since that convenience item is available to all players (paying and non-paying), it’s not P2W by any means. If a convenience item was only available to cash paying players, then you’d have P2W. Thankfully, GW2 has none of that.

Just wanted to see how this will be done with the upcoming Trait changes. If players have purchased the Instant Trait Reset item from the Gem Store, will Anet be refunding all unused items?

Essence Snow.3194:

Your ignoring the time element again.

You’re ignoring the fact that the time factor plays no part in a P2W model. Meaning if a paying player and non-paying player can both save time using the same convenience item, it’s a level playing field.

While I admit that Anet should provide more information in game, there’s only so much they can do before all players get overwhelmed. For instance:

Should Anet provide patch notes in your in-game mail, or just link it to the forums? If it’s in-game, my mail box would be riddled with a wall of small text. Linking to the Official forums is the best course. If you play on a computer that can’t access a web browser, you’re doing it wrong.

Should Anet provide your in-game mail for every update or change that will be made? I feel only game related mails that point players to story advancement should be there.

So if we eliminate the in-game mail system for spreading news and updates, what other option is there? Put it in the UI? NO. Big fat N.O. There’s enough clutter with LS events on the top right of my screen. I do not need anymore drop down boxes for new and announcements. Or how about an NPC that provides updates? That would require players to intentionally seek out this NPC on the map, and click on him. It would be more convenient to just Alt+Tab to your browser and visit the website.

John Smith.4610:

VideoGamermike.5813:

Well…thats basically a “never use this place again.”
Seriously this is insane, the only salvage you can get from this thing is a copper ore, and the item itself is the single most common salvage item I have gotten in this game(I’ve been to four started areas now,) how an item can be worth three times the cost of what you get from salvaging it is beyond me.

But yeah, I am not going to use a system where I am forced to sell for some insane overinflated BS price just because, thats both a terrible economy, and something I don’t plan on participating in.

Hey Videogamermike, not sure if you know me, but I’m John Smith and I’m the Economist here at Guild Wars 2. I think I may be able to explain some of your confusion.

It sounds like what you’re thinking about is the Labor Theory of Value, which is essentially an item’s value is defined by how long it takes to make or get. This is not an invalid theory, but it usually only holds up when the item in question doesn’t have substitutes or alternatives. In GW2, many of the items can be converted into another item and many of the items have multiple conversion into themselves. This means that there a many alternative ways to obtain a single item. This means that the value of all these items will be determined by the market, not by the value of labor since there isn’t a single value of labor involved.

-1 point John. You were too professional with your response. Where’s the schizophrenic John we all know and love?

For one thing, Urban Dictionary is not a reliable source of any type of definitions. The only time that every comes into play is when a Dev wants to verify if a certain word is slang for something naughty, thus justifying a name ban or verbal abuse suspension. This is because punishments are open to interpretation.

Back to “P2W”. Even if you use the definition found in Urban Dictionary, you failed to highlight the second part. I’ll quote you:

Leo Paul.1659:

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Key words are “unbalanced” and “without paying”. Because GW2 allows non-paying players to use the same benefits as paying customers, the Urban Dictionary definition then states that GW2 is not a P2W game.

VideoGamermike.5813:

Pelion, -you- dont understand basic economics.

This comment. Best comment ever. I can’t wait for John to rip this guy to shreds.

Well, on second thought, I’ll start by adding the following:

“Economics is the social science that studies the behavior of individuals, groups, and organizations when they manage or use scarce resources, which have alternative uses, to achieve desired ends.”

Thing is, I’m passionate about this game, and when I see people who don’t understand the fundamental differences between a P2W game and GW2, I perk up. It comes down to this – conveniences items that are openly available to all players do not meet any criteria for what a real P2W game is. I’ll attempt to describe how the model works again, only a lot more simplified. Here we go:

P2W – Game model that sells items or boosts for real money. These items cannot be used by non-paying players. Uneven playing field.

I think I did a pretty good job there. Simple and to the point. Now using that simplified description, GW2 does not fall into a P2W category, because all items can be used by paying and non-paying players. In fact, any game that allows non-paying customers to be on the same level as paying customers breaks the heart and soul of what a P2W game is.

Sanayumoki.3057:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Leo Paul.1659:

You can’t seem to accept the idea of using “money to save time.”

Skillful playing by understanding game mechanics also saves time. But I digress. This issue at hand is Pay to Win. You quoted the following:

Leo Paul.1659:

“Basically, whenever a game offers significant advantages for paying money, it becomes pay-to-win. No, you don’t actually pay to win, but you do stack the odds significantly in your favour.”

So when I say:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Gem exchange allows non-paying customers to access the same content as paying customers.

Level playing field. So GW2 is not P2W.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it. Unless paying customers have that “advantage” over non-paying customers, it’s not P2W. Mike O’Brien was smart to offer the Gem Exchange, because the same “paid content” is free available to the non-paying customers. I know of a player who has thousands upon thousands of Gems, and paid not a single penny beyond the box price of this game.

I think you’re wasting your time trying to teach those that don’t know what P2W is.

Even if i was to say that Anet would offer us a weapon that does 2,000 flat dmg and then steals 2g from the player that you kill, but you must spend $50.00 worth of gems to get one. You would say well thats P2W cause you can’t just find that weapon in the game and you must spend real life money to get it. Lets say you can instead trade in gold for gem to get that same weapon, people would still scream out “OMG P2W Anet is Evil and wants all my money!!”

Good thing Anet doesn’t do that but instead gives us armor skins and gathering tools that saves us time going out and buying 20+ of them to sit in our bags, or doing dungeons for the cool set of armor. You could say “Well saving time is still P2W!” Ok but if you work x amount of time throughout the week and you dont have enough time or effort to farm for the gold to get those times well its not really P2W more of helping those that cant get what others can in the same time period.

My point is don’t waste your time Smooth Penguin on them :P

I actually enjoy debates like this. Keeps my mind fresh. Leo had some good comebacks that made me pause for a moment. It’s kinda like a challenge to see if they can actually come up with arguments that will effectively counter mine.

As for your sword idea, I would soooooo buy that for WvW.

Moshari.8570:

Again, silly argument, because if they then came to the forums….to see why the vendors are gone…odds are they would have come to this forum first….and seen other people complaining about the same thing…before deleting their items…and unless they were listening to you guys who keep saying “delete your items, you snooze you lose” they should be keeping their items just in case ANET changes their mind.

And to answer your question: Which group is more important…I would say whichever group has the larger amount of people…

SO let me ask you this: which group is larger?

1:The group that comes to the forums regularly and reads every forum to find every tidbit of information no matter where they post it (I’ll give you a hint, ANET themselves always say that the forum goers are a vast minority)
2: The group that DOESNT come to the forums and didn’t know the vendors left…but then now came to the forums to complain representing the thousands who don’t come to the forums
3: The group that DOESNT come to the forums at all…not even to complain when something happens that they do not like.
4: The group that DIDNT come to the forums to find out that the vendors were leaving, and didnt’ spend their items…but then came to the forums and ONLY went to the news and announcements and upon reading that announcement promptly deleted all of their items rather than posting here complaining that the vendors were gone.

The main thing that JT brought up is that there can be forum users who did read the Dev quote, and ended up logging in after the update. Subsequently, because they did read and understand what the Dev said, they went ahead and deleted all their Heirlooms and Found Belongings. It doesn’t matter that people complained that they didn’t know. What matters is that a Dev said it, in Red Post writing, to use up all your Heirlooms and Found Belongings, or you lose out.

The only thing I’ll give you is that Anet can and will change their mind as they see fit. Colin himself said that they would never bring back out event exclusive items because it wouldn’t be fair, and then all of a sudden offer them in Citizen Rescue Bags during this past LA event. So if Anet brings back a merchant after-the-fact, Customer Support agents will be doing a lot of tickets for people asking that their stuff be returned to them.

Wanze.8410:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The rule of thumb is: 1 click = 1 action

If your autoclicker is 1 click = 250 actions, that’s breaking the rules, thus a ban.

The rule of thumb for autoclickers is not 1 click = 1 action, it is 1 click = 1 function, which is a big difference.

The 1 click = 1 action rule is related to macros, you are not allowed to program a macro that enables you to clickitteny once and your character performs multiple actions that dont have the same function.

Concerning auto clickers Gaile Said:

“You cannot program an “auto-clicker” macro that, for instance, opens chests while you play elsewhere.”

So if your autoclicker requires you to hold down your mouse pointer over a stack of lootbags of essences of luck and you cant perform anything else while doing it, its fine. Thats how i interpret it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Policy-3rd-Party-Programs-Multi-Boxing-Macros/first#post1532762

But Gaile does go on to elaborate that she means " it must require one keystroke per action". If a function allows an action to be done multiple times with 1 click, that would be breaking the rules.

Leo Paul.1659:

You can’t seem to accept the idea of using “money to save time.”

Skillful playing by understanding game mechanics also saves time. But I digress. This issue at hand is Pay to Win. You quoted the following:

Leo Paul.1659:

“Basically, whenever a game offers significant advantages for paying money, it becomes pay-to-win. No, you don’t actually pay to win, but you do stack the odds significantly in your favour.”

So when I say:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Gem exchange allows non-paying customers to access the same content as paying customers.

Level playing field. So GW2 is not P2W.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it. Unless paying customers have that “advantage” over non-paying customers, it’s not P2W. Mike O’Brien was smart to offer the Gem Exchange, because the same “paid content” is free available to the non-paying customers. I know of a player who has thousands upon thousands of Gems, and paid not a single penny beyond the box price of this game.

Leo Paul.1659:

You missed the part where it says “technically, you can grind”. Ninja edited by me.

And you missed the part where P2W games give advantages to paying customers over non-paying. The Gem Exchange eliminates this discrepancy.

Leo Paul.1659:

“Basically, whenever a game offers significant advantages for paying money, it becomes pay-to-win. No, you don’t actually pay to win, but you do stack the odds significantly in your favour.”

kitsuneshoujo.5734:

I admit I thought this was going to be about the movie, and was like wtf does this have to do with the game. xD Then I clicked to see and was like “oh”.

The Moot makes you sparkle like a vampire in the sun.

On topic – Twilight has one of the best looks in game. Esp. when you do spinning attacks on it. I wouldn’t put it on a Mesmer though. IMO, Guardians and Warriors are best suited for this weapon.

Leo Paul.1659:

Read again:

Yes, you can spend hours getting humiliated by your opponents to scrape together the cash for a decent midfielder, or you could drop real money to save time and torment.

Gem exchange allows non-paying customers to access the same content as paying customers.

Level playing field. So GW2 is not P2W.

Leo Paul.1659:

What is the industry standard? Coz I can also quote stuff.

http://www.gamesradar.com/free-play-still-pay-win/

“Basically, whenever a game offers significant advantages for paying money, it becomes pay-to-win. No, you don’t actually pay to win, but you do stack the odds significantly in your favour.”

Like many other players, Dave uses money to save time. Technically, you can grind your way to a superstar team in FIFA UT, but if you want to be competitive straight away (and who doesn’t?) then you need the right tools. In that sense, FIFA Ultimate Team really is a prime example of the pay-to-win model. Yes, you can spend hours getting humiliated by your opponents to scrape together the cash for a decent midfielder, or you could drop real money to save time and torment. “I started buying packs on FUT for a variety of reasons—firstly, I’m a gamer and have a deep rooted compulsion to explore every mode in a game I buy. Secondly I’m a football fanatic. Thirdly, it’s because I hate losing…” admits Dave.

http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win

When money provides an objectively better experience when playing, meaning that if the purchasable content creates a noticeable distinction between the haves and the have-nots.

“Better Experience” includes in game advantages, stronger in game gear or anything that makes the paying players stand above the free players.

this category also includes spending money for in game advantages or an “elite status.” This can be tricky to define but we can say that anything that provides a noticeable difference in how the game is played can be applied here.

Such as saying that anyone with an elite status gets all their equipment repaired for free, while free players will have to constantly spend in game resources.

You can quote stuff all you want, but I’ll trump yours with the following:

Guild Wars 2 has an exchange that allows players to take in game currency, and convert that into real money virtual currency (Gems). Because now all players have access to the same items, there is no P2W (paying and non-paying). Level playing field.

Game. Set. Match.