Guild Wars 2

Konig, there’s a penitent norn whose face is impossible to see who stands around at the Pact camp near where the Claw of Jormag lands. His dialogue during a Claw attack suggests he was once part of Jormag’s lesser minions.

How far, it’s not known, only that it’s left . . . something . . . behind.

Much like Trahearne, I find the concept of Zhaitan a lot more interesting than what happens and what we encounter of the Risen. Given they’re zombies of highly varying intelligence . . . well, it’s to be expected they’re not that interesting to me. I’ve never found zombies interesting.

On the other hand, Kralk and Jormag with their minions? I have much more interest in them. The Sons of Svanir and the Icebrood are an intriguing thing to deal with because they retain their intelligence despite being corrupted. And Kralk’s minions intrigue me more than the Risen because they are clearly . . .

Look, the Risen are slightly adapted dead bodies. In some cases of fresh Risen, not even that. The Sons of Svanir mostly look normal, just pale and frosty. Even the Icebrood are just further down the path of “enhancement” while retaining a basic definition of what they were.

The Branded? Kralk overwrote and completely altered what they were.

Also, the Destroyers are very interesting if only because I’m wondering why Primordius is sticking to those after they failed miserably.

Astralporing.1957:

Perhaps the one that doesn’t remember is you. Compared to the some of the old MUD forums i used to frequent once, this one is very mild and calm. The amount of flames, mud slinging, demands and accusations there was much, much higher then.

Seriously . . . about the only forums which were civil were official ones, and that’s because companies were a whole lot stricter on whether people were allowed to . . . essentially, walk into someone;s meeting place and shout “Bill is a liar and a cheat!” without getting tossed out on his ear.

Though there is something about the era when games were released and even if they were buggy messes we were expected to like them. That’s because, up until a certain point, patches would have to be mailed to people rather than just downloaded off an FTP. Or through the launcher. So generally, what you bought was very much what you got . . .

Once we got to what people can say were “MMORPGs” it was expected you had a fast enough connection to download patches, therefore it became a little more common. More often than not patches were snuck in during the weekly maintenance cycle

(Who misses those, by the way?)

Your last post, 2 things:

1) If you don’t prefer “artistic diversity” qualities in your games, don’t use them in your argument. Or if your speaking on Anets behalf and not your own, say so. You switch in and out of 1st and 3rd-person too readily it veils your motives and lets you not be held accountable.

If I speak for ArenaNet, it’s only surmising from what I know, what’s been said, and what can be gleaned from how things have turned out. If I speak for myself, I will do so. I try to not let my opinion of whether something was done well, or whether I’d do something different, get in the way of a point I’m trying to make.

In short, I can disagree with something and still explain why I think it was done without resorting to things like “they had to have been incompetent”.

And to make it crystal clear: I do not work for, or represent, ArenaNet employees or people who once worked for them. If I express an opinion, with no qualification (“I believe”, “I expect”) it belongs to me alone unless someone else shares in it. If I sound like I know what they do at their offices, or how their internal policies work? It’s because I’ve been at least a little aware of things over time and listening to an ample amount of game developers talk about things. I read, I listen, and I think.

2) Mark Twain once wrote in a letter to a friend, “I’m sorry this letter is so long, if I had taken my time it would have been much shorter.” It’s nice you like to expound upon your game history and how it has shaped your experiences, but it’s unnecessary. Or at least keep it succinct lol. We may have strayed from the original post, but it does still relate directly to it.

I expound on all this because, frankly, once I finish talking here I intend to avoid bringing this up again. I don’t have the luxury of infinite time, and there was everything this last weekend to make that clear in abundance. When I am afforded the luxury to expand on a point and even in a roundabout way make my point? I’m going to seize it, because tomorrow . . . the day after . . . or the week after, that time may not be there anymore.

I don’t intend to go down this path repeatedly, only when it seems it might yield something interesting in the way of conversation and discussion. So far it has, which has been rewarding and enlightening. And like anything of value, it is worth doing to the fullest effort you can give.

Your next few paragraphs are way off topic. We were discussing the pros and cons of staying all-human vs multi-race, and you immediately state it was too late since GW2 development had begun. /facepalm. We’re talking pre-EotN, not post. Stay with me here.

Right. It’s not really off topic, it’s quite on the topic we were discussing. Which is how you get to “we need more races” from “but we have all these human nations”.

Anyway, since we agreed that the decision had to be made pre-EOTN in order to “splice in” the norn, charr, asura, and dragons for Guild Wars 2, that means that before EOTN was in serious production the material for Guild Wars 2 had to have been in mind. You yourself implied that EOTN was a means of starting the development of GW2’s story, which means . . . if we accept that as true, then right after Nightfall when work was being done on EOTN, they had to have an idea of what GW2 would be like.

If EOTN was an attempt to set up things for GW2, especially these races, then before the writing for EOTN was finished and sent off to be coded there had to be an idea of what they wanted in GW2.

Also, I’ve never heard the Proph landscape described as “nothing of interest” before. Most peeps I know said they thought the land was stunning for its time.

Try this gentleman’s view. And his commenters , one stands out a couple articles down the line:

“In Prophecies especially, there is a huge amount of landmass if you choose to explore it all, and not enough done to make each area distinctive.”

That’s about it. And I’ve seen other references to it as “a beautiful nothing” because while there was a beautiful area to explore . . . more often than not there was nothing for you there. “The Falls” was probably one of my favorite areas to go get lost in but there was nothing really THERE until some green items and the hidden workshop got added. And that’s not even talking about half the other sights you could stumble to. The western path of Talus Chute, where you had sky on both sides of you running along a ridge. And the untold dozens of little corners you wouldn’t find unless you were doing your Cartography.

And where did you make the jump to all of your meanderings meaning it couldn’t be an mmo? Because there were fewer humans left around now? You need a much better argument than that to be convincing.

No, you missed the other thing. What you would have is a situation where there was one hub city where humans had been gathering and a bunch of smaller towns and outposts which were on the frontier. Or camps barely holding off forces trying to swallow them up. While an MMO could work like that, that sort of style is far . . . FAR . . . better established in something even more akin to the original Guild Wars.

Which we all knew this game was not intended to be like at all, in a mechanical sense.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
You also just re-stated the same “it’s the current material that is valid” argument, but in a different way. Authors come and go all the time, and the content the new ones create will always be compared to the content that came before them. But to say its the right of whoever is here now to do what he wishes with said content is not just wrong, it’s irresponsible.

It may be irresponsible but it’s not wrong. The person who owns the rights to the material gets to make the decisions. In the case of a regime change where a new team comes on to pick up where an older team left off, the newer team gets to make the call. They might respect what was already there, or they may not. But it is their call how to handle the situation.

Heck even the same author can mess things up, the trainwreck that is Star Wars episodes I-III can speak for that. Sure it’s Lucas’ right to do so, but how many people can you find on the planet who would say young Vader was legitimately portrayed in those? He sure did cry a lot.

You went from saying it was wrong to saying Lucas had a right to do so. I’m not sure if I missed a difference here or there was just a mistake. Either way, for George Lucas it’s simple; he was the original creator and the one who was agreed to have control over the details.

ArenaNet has someone on staff (don’t ask me who, they haven’t said, but I know they exist) whose job it is to keep the lore internally consistent. They don’t have to be concerned with “did we change the direction of the game feel”, they have to be concerned with “does this contradict something we already said, in a way we can’t reconcile”.

You still didn’t need to bring up the Titan quests. The topic was how the Charr were portrayed, not when were the Titan’s referenced. All the Charr behaved the same up to the point you meet Garfaz, regardless of whether or not the Titans were the implied or factual force behind them.

It is important to how they were portrayed. It gave them a link to the Titans rather than some fiery “gods” who liked things to burn. Could you believe there were people seriously suggesting it was Balthazar since he was a god who resonated more with fire and battle? It was very important because it showed something was using the charr and putting them on the path towards the Searing. It showed that the Titans were directly responsible for the Searing through their influence over the charr, long before it was said they were the reason the charr had a Searing Cauldron.

This stuff is not unimportant.

Ascalon wasn’t dead after Nightfall. It was beaten and burned, but still very much alive.

Oh no . . . it was very dead. It was terminally ill with no hope of a cure. The question was how long it would take to finally roll over and get buried.

And Cantha and Elona (Joko was still a problem though) were still alive and kicking. That’s 4 out of the 5 original human areas still a viable option. And you never set foot in Orr anyway, so you’re not even missing that one. If all that’s a lost cause I wouldn’t get into sports if I were you.

We discounted Cantha and Elona because then you’d have to add in as much landmass and territory as Tyria . . . in the case of Elona, possibly more . . . just to bring in the cultures. This is not a feasible situation for a team having to build a game from the ground up with a deadline. Even if the deadline was four years away.

I really don’t know if you grasp the sheer amount of work it would take to even pick up Kaineng City and make it work within Guild Wars 2’s engine let alone the rest of Cantha.

Additionally, Utopia would have been a 6th area to include had they used the ideas for that for humans in GW2, and not sold them wholesale to the Asura and Sylvari themes. And Orr would have made a lovely area to explore in the future…just like it is now.

Utopia was canceled but much of the design work was rolled into Eye of the North and repurposed. Also, it’s not fair using a product which never got past a theoretical stage to count as a sixth human nation.

— More

Rifter.6591:

Also what do old games have to do with GW2? Thats just another strawman.

I think it’s not a strawman, it’s just a misdirection.

The idea the Nightmare Court have been specifically corrupted is an intriguing one, and I’d consider it worth pegging. The whole of sylvari, no. Just the Court? Compelling thought.

However, people have been rescued from the Nightmare Court . . . I don’t think any have been rescued from Jormag, though there is one fellow who seems to have turned away and tried to make amends. With mixed success. Zhaitan only turns corpses completely, and Primordius . . . does NOT seem to corrupt minions.

@Lokheit:

I’ve read this argument before. It didn’t improve much after the first time. There’s not enough other than conjecture to support it, and it only works if you make the assumption at the start with no basis.

I still think the Six Gods are not acting because the dragons eat magic . . . they are highly magical. And as you said, Jormag’s minions have been trying to break into the Mists. Perhaps they have more to fear from the dragons than the humans of Tyria think.

At the very least, we do know that Grenth is still active and able to communicate with his faithful.

Lpfan.3578:

I haven’t read all of the comments here, but my very first thought in response to the OP is. “Really? In WvWvW you are rewarded for killing other humans/intelligent races, simply because they aren’t from your home server… and you are worried about the bunnies?”

. . . and cats. There are a couple places with white critter cats around.

ArenaNet, thanks for the teaser, this is an interesting thing.

I hope upcoming Living Story bits after Flame and Frost will be a little faster paced or at least have more significant pieces to each arc part. This was a decent first outing, and I would like to see you improve.

Oh, and while you’re at it? Can you make it so I can load an asura into the cattlepult? No? Shucks. You’re safe for now Zojja . . . but I’ll be back.

Drew.1865:

You think that response was professional?

. . . yes.

Why? I didn’t see swearing, name-calling, threats of banning, or other things which could have gone in as over the top chest-beating expected from “unprofessional” moderators. That response was measured, but was phrased in a way that left no doubt “I think you crossed a line”.

Not with the topic title, mind you, but with the action of changing it back after a moderator altered it. Someone else covered it earlier. A public act of defiance deserves a public chastising.

Khisanth.2948:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So this thread is getting derailed talking about people who don’t like the daily, but it SHOULD be talking about the daily encouraging the improvement of Shield/Focus/Torch/Warhorn Weapon Master achievements.

Hmm … new daily – “Kill 10 Giants with a Warhorn”

That would be so so skipped if it showed up. Skipped so hard it would bounce. I’m not kidding, we would hear of some poor developer who got knocked out by an invisible concussion from how hard people would skip that one.

But I suppose if you prefer superficial, visual qualities over original, intrinsic ones, then yeah…GW2 is your game. GW2 Tyria is probably the most beautiful and gorgeous game I’ve ever played, but after the 100th breathtaking vista I’d like some believable content for my hungry brain. This stuff is for kids.

Here’s a problem.

I don’t prefer superficial, visual qualities . . . I like them, but I also like games where the graphics are crappy so they can get away with more effort on technical issues. Minecraft, for example. Or even older games I will go back to, such as Eye of the Beholder 2. Or older than that and fish out my Gold Box Collection CDrom and try feverishly to get it to work.

I’ve played games where there was no visual component at all, just guys sitting around a coffee table making crap up as they went. It was the most intense and awesome storytelling moment I had involved myself in, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. It was intrinsically superior to anything a computer MMO currently can offer me, and I know that will probably never . . . ever change.

That’s right, I said it. Tabletop RPGs have the potential to blow the socks, pants, and frilly underwear off any computer MMO I can name in story and engaging play. I’ll even sig that line to make it clear where I stand. And yet I have never seen anything as goofy and silly as a Call of Cthulu game at the wrong time.

Or that one level in Modern Warfare 2 which was supposed to be very controversial but I found so over the top it passed right into comedy.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
“Retroactive continuity” is what us historians call b___s___.

It doesn’t work in real life as well. In fiction, well . . . it’s not real. What exists is what the author says exists. And in a case where you have a shared fiction between several authors, this concept comes into play. It’s origins are in comic books, but it works with other stuff too. Like games where the writing staff may change or get additions in the middle of a series.

And it is bull hockey, no doubt about that. The question when you apply it is “how much is this going to muck up what already existed”. in this case, it didn’t do that much since the original material was light on detail.

The Titan quests don’t present the Charr in any different way than previous, you shouldn’t include them with the Nightfall reference.

Well, if I intended to bend things to make my point, I wouldn’t have.

However, it’s necessary. The titans were always implied, not outright stated, to be the charr “gods” which were responsible for the searing. The last few Titan quests made it fact. The Nightfall quest explored that fact. So in order to use the Nightfall quest . . . I had to use the Titan quests.

“Artistic Diversity.” Odd…that’s almost exactly what they had before, even more so. Ascalonian, Krytan, Orrian, Canthan, Luxon, Kurzick, Istani, Kournan, Vabbi. Not to mention the various subcultures like Charr, Tengu, Dwarves, etc. All more or less distinct in style and personality. And all believable as legitimate cultures. I find it deflating that you prefer the styles that cater to those “stereotypical tropes” over a much more unique take on a gaming fantasy genre.

You asked why, not what my preference was. My preference would have been to keep some. Except we couldn’t keep Ascalon (it was dead at the time of Eye of the North and Guild Wars Beyond, but King Adelbern could not understand it) and Orr was straight gone even then.

But, of course, there’s another trouble. Guild Wars 2 was in development and it had all these races people did want to see as playable. The only unanticipated one was the sylvari (even then they caught some crap, as I recall). If you included any other races, then humans had to have less of a role otherwise the other races would look even more “tacked on” rather than an integral part of the world.

And from experience . . . you don’t “tack on” a race post-release unless you have a very good idea of what to do with it.

Given the whole of GW1 to use and being told I needed to make Guild Wars 2, the choice of setting becomes easier as you need to cut it down to something which can be managed before people forget about you. Remember, there were three campaigns over four years . . . that’s a lot of content and you need to chop something.

So what? Well, most fans of the original Guild Wars probably played Prophecies . . . in fact, most of your players probably began with it so Tyria is a good choice. Good mix of biomes and terrain to work with, and you have a lot of diverse material to work with. Only, oooh, the only real settlements of humanity left are in Kryta and the dismal offering in Ascalon. Making it humans-only means you need to come up with a way they were able to push out more to make their way.

You’re already written into two corners. They can’t take back Orr since it’s gone . . . and it’s established there’s no really viable way of triumphing over the charr in Ascalon without some seriously . . . deus-ex-machina writing. Kryta had just finished a civil war scarring it, and their borders weren’t even secure yet.

About here, is where I would indeed have said “screw it, go with using other races”. Short of having the game take place as a large amount of area where it was wilderness and maybe a friendly village you could stop in for supplies . . .

I should note this was a big complaint about Prophecies, by the way, the huge amount of empty space with nothing of interest . . .

It gets less and less away from an MMO and more towards another adventure game with shared player pools. And while there’s nothing wrong with that, they already made a game like that. It was Guild Wars 1.

All of this, mind you, is dependent on “you have to use what you’re given after Nightfall wraps its story, and plan to not just connect the two ideas but continue in the first world”. If I had no such limitations . . .

I’d probably have pulled a “Filgaia” answer. (See: Wild Arms series)

Deano.7913:

Is there any web pages or locations that ArenaNet posts about future plans or any kind of roadmap for future development? I know they have that one thing that is like general “wow look at this” page for each month that leaves many details out. But I was wondering if they had something like their update posts in the News and Announcements part of the forums, but ahead of time.

I’m mainly curious if there was future plans published some place for guild missions beyond what was introduced into the game recently, like fixes or improvements.

They never really had anything big, even in GW1. There were blog posts or announcements but never a “here’s the state of the game this week”.

And given the way the community reacts every time they open their mouths about anything, I have a mixed reaction to the concept . . . I want to hear it, but at the same time I really don’t want to watch the community go nuts every week over and over again.

Treeline.3865:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Treeline.3865:

But if you are all pleased, please argue your case and contribute to the discussion, or leave it to die if you have no input.

I’m sorry but why should people argue their case to you? Why should we have to specifically seek your approval?

A, because if you are not arguing, then you are griefing or off topic, which is not the intent of the thread and B, .. What? Why would you need that? I’m asking him to contribute to the thread, not to praise me.

I’m not arguing with you, not going to agree with you, and I think the new loot is perhaps one of the better things to do about this. There was next to no reason to do many of these events . . . except the Claw of Jormag.

Now there is a reason to. And, alas, we now see what happens when there is a reason to.

Leo Paul.1659:

The reward system of GW2 is whack. I really miss GW1. I’ve been playing since beta and when I tried playing other MMO’s, I feel like the grind at least rewards me a relatively good amount of sense of achievement. Before, I was only looking forward to getting the stuff I think looks neat and it gave me a sense of fulfillment everytime I run a dungeon or get an exotic item. Nowadays, I focus on getting all of my ascended equipments and is stuck on finishing my legendaries because of the precursors yet even when I do get them, the community dismisses its value.

Yeah, sadly while the community is pretty supportive in general, when you look at that sort of thing there’s usually some level of contempt. I chimed in on map chat once about if anyone was really bothering with Ascended, to say I had an amulet after Feb . . .

They totally ignored that I said I was replacing a green amulet and held off making an exotic (which I could have) in favor of just skipping to the top. I think I got called everything except “casual”, which is weird because I barely play except for the hours between dinner and when I start winding down for sleep.

The game is grindy in a different sense. In 7 months, I would’ve already achieved final equipments in other games too from farming the same amount of time as I did in gw2.

Ascended really ruined this game for me.

I’m not sure if it’s Ascended to blame, precisely. It’s the reaction to it. Oh, and the fact that it’s “cool” to hate on it.

Danikat.8537:

I’d also like to re-visit Claw Island because it seems a shame to only be able to go there twice.

I vote we have the Pact take it over and since Fort Trinity is very out of position for an assault on any of the other dragons it can be a central command. And with the leadership away from Orr, there is no need for people to have to deal with Trahearne on a regular basis.

Win for them, win for you, win for everyone. Except the Risen. And the Lionguard.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Pretty sure they know they aren’t gods, they’re just very intelligent and malicious.

No, I’m pretty sure they know their limitations. I’m also sure they’re not entirely malicious, they just perform a very dirty task to keep the Door of Komalie shut. The act is completely unacceptable to us, since it is sacrifice . . .

But it brings to question how in the heck they were keeping it closed before that sacrificing Chosen was the preferable alternative?

Zappix.7928:

I think it’s possible that they could make a return. Didn’t Saul D’Alessio require help from the Mursaat to retake Kryta from the Charr? Kryta being the human home land now, the Unseen ones may very well make a return. I don’t think we exterminated them in the first game? We killed a few but not all of them and they do think they’re Gods so why not? It’s been 250 years, they could have rebuilt? We have a condition called Agony? Perhaps infusions and ascended armour will play a role in this?? Be interesting to see how those wasp people look after all this time.

You do need to check out the “Saul’s Story” details in the first game.

The thing is, Saul somehow or another happened upon the Mursaat’s hiding place while down and out, and came back preaching about them to Kryta. He gathered enough people around him who believed his message, but he possibly was genuinely interested in the well-being of Kryta.

We will never really know what his long-term plans were because the charr invaded and he was lost while fighting them. What happened was that he was overtaken during a combat with the charr and the Mursaat sent a few of their number to protect him. For some reason. when they left, they took him with them and left a few others in charge of the fledgling White Mantle.

The Mursaat weren’t interested in saving Kryta. They were interested, apparently, solely in Saul and to a lesser extent his followers. We know later they had an extreme interest in keeping the Door of Komalie shut tight and the White Mantle was a useful tool to work with it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Well it is possible that there’re two moons – and they’re on complete opposite sides of Tyria, rotating in the same or nearly the same path.

In reality, I don’t think that’s entirely plausible.

In fantasy, it makes completely perfect sense and now I need to see about selling some asura on this theory to travel to the “second moon of Tyria”.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
The Asura and Norn didn’t exist until EotN came out. When it was released they were written as having been around for a long time. There’s a subtle difference there that is important. It’s a tad inauthentic to imply there were always part of the GW1 world.

I agree, it’s inauthentic, but that’s the nature of “retroactive continuity”. If something is added into a story and evidence is put in that shows they’ve existed longer than before the first time other people meet them, then they have been there as long as the evidence suggests. They have to have been.

It’s just that we never encountered them until that point. And, fairness, we had no real reason to. The asura were underground until Primordius’ Destroyers forced them out . and the norn are incredibly far north on the other side of the charr lands. The asura weren’t interested in “us” and the norn were content to live where they were and every so often “remind” the charr to stay out of their hunting grounds.

In the sense of the game . . . once they were introduced, they were always there. We know they were scribbled into being by some writer who had some reason to write them up. But when it comes to talking about the world as though it existed? They were always there, we just didn’t know about them yet.

I’m glad you brought up the Nightfall quest because I’ve commented on this very thing before. But I’ll try it out again I guess. J. Grubbs was brought onboard ANet for the first time to help write Nightfall. He’s also one of the main movers and shakers when it comes to lore for both EotN and GW2. In that light, it’s hardly surprising we find a sympathetic Charr in the Realm of Torment or wherever it was. He was fond of the Charr for whatever reason, and was already starting to bend them a certain direction. <— just my theory fyi

It’s a good theory, given what I’ve read of his . . . he probably saw the charr and went “guys are you doing anything with this race?” before starting to work with it. Again, at the risk of off-topic talk, it’s kinda how R.A. Salvatore wound up putting a lot of definition into Drow culture and mannerisms, along with another author whose name escapes me. Up until Drizzt, they were very much single-facet villains. Think about it.

And again, none of this is really bad. The charr as they were originally were uninteresting. Two details later (the titan quests and the Nightfall quest) and abruptly there’s an intriguing question.

I disagree on your analysis of the comparative goofyness values of both games <lulz>, but I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on that. Suffice to say GW1 connected with me in a simple but personal way. I identified with it for whatever reason. In GW2, I can’t wait to skip the cinematics.

It’s okay. I really liked GW1 too and I really think in some places the storytelling shines through better than GW2. But in some places it dips quite a bit. If anything I find GW2 mostly . . . mostly . . . maintains a consistent tone. And yes . . .

. . . that tone is much lighter than the four times running “It’s the end of the world as we know it” GW1 had

I would also like to add I was ravenously optimistic for this game before it came out. Ranted a lot on various forums against people who thought it would fall flat on its face.

If I could, I’d buy you a drink. Not just the distance thing, and the not knowing if you’re legal, but the fact I can’t afford to right now

Finally, I hardly ever get anyone to comment on whether or not GW should have been kept a “human-only” game, including yourself. I don’t know why that is, perhaps it’s too far gone to realistically consider it. But it’s something to think about. Why do you think they brought in 4 more races to play, hmmm?

In two words? Artistic diversity.

To expand on those? Mmmm, in the shortest I can get right now and still make a point. Five races of distinctly different “feel” means you can get five distinct art styles into the game and their native lands will have five distinct feelings as you roam. And when you happen on a small colony or outpost of one race somewhere else, you will know it instantly by the architecture and hallmarks. Heck, it goes so far as that you can tell which GROUP owns the camp you are approaching sometimes. Lionguard, Flame Legion, Vigil, humans, charr, sylvari . . . krait, skritt . . .

It’s about allowing players a major cosmetic choice and a minor mechanical one.

jblade.6470:

I agree with many above me. If the story was actually good with cut scenes, unique gameplay (different types then just go in and clear), deeper character development, and an actual purpose to the choice you make (maybe even dialog choices like some Bioware games use). Basically redo the entire experience. Otherwise it’s not worth the resources unless it would only take them a few minutes to implement.

Totally redoing it would be such an intensive draw on resources we probably would not get much in the way of any content for a while. Yes I know there are different teams, but there’s only so much budget to go around. Voice actors aren’t cheap :P

ArchonWing.9480:

So he has pretty minimal development in the stories for one of the races, and then none for the others. Well, that doesn’t help much since he affects all of them.

I have no idea how minimal his development is . . . I haven’t had the time to work on my sylvari lately. Just time to log in, screw around for a few hours, then catch sleep. I can read the logs on the wiki or surf YouTube . . . but I’d rather play it out personally.

And yeah. I really think if he was going to be a big part we needed an extra chapter to get to know the guy better before we were expected to back his leadership. I think I can chalk that one up to “deadline issues” though.

ensoriki.5789:

gw1 didn’t feel very serious either.
Tons of popculture references.
But the overarching attitude of the story was a bit more grounded.

Dragon’s do not feel like serious threats tbh.

How do you get that out of what we have?

. . . no, not being sarcastic, entirely. I’m just wanting to hear how they don’t feel serious.

MeateaW.3519:

As has already been mentioned, rabbits in Australia are a menace beyond comprehension.

Rabbits while cute; are a bigger pest than rats IMO. As long as you kill them quickly; kill more. (luckily you can’t help but kill them quickly in GW2 – death animations not withstanding)

I know about rabbits in Australia. I also know they were a big pest during the Dust Bowl era in the United States. One is a textbook example of why you don’t introduce species outside of their original habitats unless you’re WELL sure what you’re doing, and the other is an example of competition of food supply gone REALLY pear-shaped.

And yes, you’re right about having all 5 races possibly fitting the descriptor for “civilization.” Of course they do…now. The Norn and Asura popped into existence in EotN, the Sylvari just recently. They didn’t exist back in the time we are talking about.

Even then, the asura had a civilization, and the norn had one. It’s clear the norn had been living in the area we discovered them in for some time, and it was their home. The asura . . . we don’t know where they were originally but we can see they had a civilization and culture by how they behaved after being pushed to the surface world. They’re rebuilding at the time we see them so of course they sort of “popped into existence” . . . they literally were starting a fresh home.

And the Charr…they’ve had more plot changes than a bad soap opera. The Charr of pre-EotN were savages. Why ANet chose to give up on the human cultures is sad to see. Why they chose the Charr as one of the replacements is beyond me.

The charr we saw were savage and brutal. But then, we were only seeing soldiers in action on the field. They were either enemies to overcome or a force to flee from, because as an opposing army that’s all they were. They didn’t bother trying to speak to Ascalonians because it was not anything they were interested in doing.

We saw there was at least a hint there was something to the charr other than blind savagery in Nightfall. Though it was on an optional quest. Again . . . before that, all we had been encountering were war parties or scouting groups. This is usually not the best lens through which to view a culture.

Also, while the charr have had a lot of development, they were also one of the few races we could actually identify which was around from “day one” of the original Guild Wars release. The next closest were dwarves, centaurs, and tengu. All three of those got more development over time, though only dwarves got enough to rival the charr in how much they got “messed up”.

I’m not sure I can continue talking about this currently, most of this is straying into lore discussion and off topic from the original post.

Here’s what I can say on topic:

Guild Wars 1 was as goofy, as silly, as contrived as Guild Wars 2 is. Not all three at once, but it had its moments. The main reason the story seems weaker is because it appears to have been divided up among five races instead of one.

I posted about this on the Personal Story subforum. There are NPCs who you have no idea who they’re supposed to be whose significance only becomes clear if you played enough permutations of personal stories. Which is an interesting thing but it can be maddening to me.

Yes, the story is weaker on one path alone, but it appears that was a conscious choice to encourage people to at least check out other races and biography paths. Goofier? Ehhh, it comes and goes. Part of it is the presentation, part of it is the voice acting, and part of it is the dialogue suffering from being “not entirely natural” (but understandably that’s an issue all writers have to confront).

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
That’s just it though, Tyria did have geographic and cultural differences in the first game. Besides adding a few more classes, that was the whole point of it. There wasn’t much religious difference though, maybe for gameplay purposes with skills. Who knows. The different cultures weren’t monolithic either, the writers took bits and pieces from around the world and basically created patchwork Frankenstein cultures that only partially mimicked any one real-world culture. And they actually pulled it off amazingly.

I somewhat agree with you that, they did pull it off . . . but then all of Tyria in Prophecies came off a little flat to me at first and it wasn’t until they had some time to work on it that it started to “pop”. And the reason we lost so much of the distinct culture going on is that humans have been pushed back into one place, which was already home to Kryta . . . so the cultures adapted and were adapted to.

And this is the only real life comparison culture comparison I will make . . . promise. Divinity’s Reach is (for me) like New York. Massive architectural achievements, a melting pot of independent cultures which retain enough of their heritage to be at least slightly distinct? It’s everything people think New York is like.

By comparison, Lion’s Arch is also like New York. It’s got all the cultures who don’t automatically start all out to-the-death fights coexisting, it’s seedy, it’s got a reputation for being dangerous if you go down the wrong alley, and through the gate network it is connected to most of the major parts of the known world.

At any rate, my point was that stating that the existence of certain physical elements in Tyria should follow the same course as they do in real life is not very realistic.

Physics is physics, in most cases. If your fiction needs to have things defying physics and it doesn’t get a good reason (’it’s magic’ doesn’t count) you’re writing fantasy. But just because things can float in mid air with no apparent support or reason doesn’t mean if you boil water in a closed area it won’t explode . . . or that your equivalent of gunpowder won’t violently expand when exposed to flame or another catalyst.

The Tengu thing; ok, the Tengu Wars and the pre-Searing conflict are not the same. I left off “by any means” because something tells me you might latch onto that. How were both sides wrong? Or when did both sides commit mass atrocities?

Well, wrong? Right? There’s no wrong or right to the humble beginnings. The humans settled on land another race thought of as theirs. Words were exchanged. Weapons were used on noncombatants. It moved on from there. I cannot, at all, cite every example of anything. All I can do is point at this and go: “these things happened, and they were violent affairs”. One ended in a truce before it could get out of hand (the Tengu Wars) and the other was allowed to continue to a natural conclusion (one side wins and pushes the other out or utterly destroys them).

And you’re comparing the early Charr-Human conflict to the centaurs? You’re missing the point again. The centaurs haven’t demonstrated nearly the amount of mindless disregard for human dignity that the Charr have. The centaurs probably hate humans for sure, we’re encroaching on their lands. But I have yet to see any sign of them building human bonfires or constructing a weapon to decimate the face of Kryta.

I wasn’t comparing charr-human relations with centaur-human relations, I was noting there was an analogue in Elona where humans and another race were at odds over lands. And it seemed stable until Varesh’s generals started stirring things up, I can only surmise . . . since we have no clue . . . that it returned to being a guarded coexistence after.

As for not seeing war machines or human bonfires . . .

First, they are not so strict carnivores as charr, so they have no real need of that much meat. No, instead they work the humans they capture until they die of exhaustion. (Again, this is implied, not outright stated.) The charr also, notably, did take prisoners and execute them for sport at some point after the Searing. (See: Gwen’s Story)

As for war machines? The centaurs don’t build like the charr because they are not like the charr. Those who can use magic, they conjure up elemental forces to do their bidding. The shaman which assaulted Shaemoor and the leader in the Harathi Hinterlands show this. They also construct war machines in the form of trebuchets and catapults, which are on par with human war machines. They are also exceedingly simple and easy to construct . . . perfect for a group which is intended to be able to be on the move or need to vacate a position.

— more

ArchonWing.9480:

You can have a decent character but make them bad by putting them in the wrong place.

I mean, if he were a minor NPC that assists and dispenses knowledge, that wouldn’t be a problem. You don’t need much development for this.

However, when you have little to no build up, and push him in the middle of the story to stardom, and overshadowing other more interesting characters, that’s a problem. The writers didn’t equip him with enough credibility to take center stage.

I’m pretty much just saving story sections for dailies atm.

And yes, sadly enough, the PC character themselves are just too goody goody and perfect as well, beyond the small amount of input you can put in their backstory.

That’s not the issue exactly, the exact issue . . .

. . . is that he shows up in the Sylvari storyline for chapter three (Introducing you to the orders) and disappears for all of one chapter before he’s back. Everyone else? Never heard of him.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

rizzo.1079:

IndigoSundown.5419:

It does take forever to get anywhere

There’s one point I forgot: I tried wvw for the first time the other day when one of the commanders asked for help since both teams were invading our borderlands. I was really disappointed by how much time was spent running around the map vs. time spent actually doing anything. Even if I liked pvp, I think just the sheer lack of wp’s in the wvw maps is a real turnoff.

That’s understandable. It’s to prevent one side from res-rushing.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, or in this case, solving the problem you cite (which is a real one, don’t get me wrong) creates the problem of too much time spent running towards, and thus waiting to have, fun. Having the rez point closer to the action (e.g., much smaller map) didn’t break Alliance Battles in GW1. However, there are a lot of differences between AB and WvW as game modes.

There’s truth in that, and really that’s a problem I’m really grateful I didn’t have to solve but the developers did.

There’s two other things which can be considered. Waypoints being available to be built at Keeps . . . and them being contested if someone so much as dings a Gate or Wall.

TwoBit.5903:

Guild Wars 2 is a game where very good and very bad elements both exist in close proximity. You have wonderful ideas and concepts with spectacularly poor implementation. ANet needs to listen to the players, especially the critical ones, not only because they’re the ones playing it but because they’re removed from development hubris.

I don’t know if it’s hubris or myopia, but there is a danger of working on something so long that you’re no longer seeing what is actually there but what should be there. It’s proven, and it’s why if I have a term paper . . . I read it backwards from the final paragraph rather than forwards. I catch more typos and out-of-order things that way.

It’s a pity I can’t do that so well on the internet forums. I’d catch a LOT more of my more embarrassing constant errors that way. (42,000 for temple exotics, not 4200 . . . 42,000 for temple exotics, not 4200 . . .)

Well . . .

This is going into my small pile of “legitimate stuff which bugs me as a writer” pile, which is next to the somewhat taller “this stuff bugs me as a player” pile. Eventually I’ll have enough to actually blog about it.

The Tengu wars and the Searing are not the same by any means.

I said the Pre-Searing conflict, specifically because the Searing was SO MUCH a game-changer on all sides it defies any analogy inside Tyria beyond the Jade Wind . . . and even THAT didn’t come close to how badly the Searing screwed up Tyria. (The continent, not the world.)

What the heck did the humans do to deserve all of this, push the Charr a little farther north? It wasn’t even their homeland to begin with, they were nomadic. You’re reaching here.

And you’re projecting. I didn’t say anything about whether or not it was their homeland, or that the humans deserved this. You were the one who said:

The peacetalks have to happen because ANet can’t have 2 playable races at war with each other, and it seemed like a good way for the writers to address that particular elephant in the room. It’s not something GW1 humans would ever do, despite any amount of time passing, but it’s done for the sake of the overarching us-vs-dragons storyline.

While it was clear . . . they had done it before. At least once, since we don’t know how the Veldtrunner centaurs and humans got along. We do know they weren’t outright fighting each other all the time blindly, and that they coexisted in Kourna.

This isn’t about who’s right and who’s wrong on the human, charr, centaur, tengu side. This is about your statement which was an absolute statement . . . and was demonstrably wrong.

But again, that has some real-world nuances to it that might not relate here. But you get the jist. No race really fits that definition to a tee in GW, but it should be easy enough to make certain distinctions in lieu of that.

I need to stop and ask then, because you defined civilization so narrowly . . .

Here’s a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization

If you want to debate whether any races fit into "civilization’ by any criteria, we’ll have to take it to the Lore subforum. It’s sufficient to say I find that the five races all fit the defining characteristics of “civilization” within necessary deviations due to the consequences of their surroundings.

I’d also add that the centaurs, skritt, quaggan, krait, tengu, kodan, dredge, hylek, and possibly others do also suit some level of civilization and/or culture.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
Good, we agree making references to real-world physical limitations is disingenuous when discussing in-game technology and the ramifications thereof.

This is a lot of big words. I’d also add though, that Tyria has the “advantage” of not having the religious, geographic, cultural diverity we have here on Earth. You may, of course, use that to nail the writers on making bad fiction or whatever, but there is no way they can realistically approximate even half the cultures of the world alive now much less emulate dead ones . . . for which we have only potentially inaccurate historical representations of.

(Remember, history is written by those who survived.)

We also have real, tangible interactions with the Six Gods, the Spirits of the Wild, and other beings which cannot possibly exist in real life. Technology which should work in Tyria follows different rules, most notably asura tech which relies on rules that magic energy follows rather than simply electromagnetic fields and particle acceleration. Charr tech on the other hand, is based on fundamental physical rules such as physics and chemistry.

Translation: “The real world is not Tyria, but something which works in the real world would probably also work in Tyria.”

Uhh…if she gave it to Rytlock, why would he not try to see if the legend is true then. I highly doubt, given the opportunity, Rytlock and the Charr would pass on a chance, however scant it may be, to rid Ascalon of the ghosts. Their on-and-off friendship pales in comparison to that.

You’ll note that the first time Rytlock steps into the presence of King Adelbern, the king’s ghost thinks Rurik is there . . . which he knows is impossible. Rytlock flatly just goes “no, he’s dead, your kingdom is dead, and I hate your silly hat”. Okay, not exactly that, but whatever

EotN isn’t a coherent expansion, and it doesn’t work quite well. The various cultures of the humans back then(Krytan, Canthan, Vabbi, etc) serve the exact same purpose the playable races do now. NCSoft, and maybe ANet but I doubt it at first, was just too scared over losing a bit of sales over people being slightly offended over some vague similarities to real-world cultures(see forum Canthan thread). So they come up with these stereotypical races to provide the “flavors” the original cultures had.

It’s important to note something here, and I’m only going to say it once in this thread.

Stereotypes, cliches, and tropes aren’t bad as a starting point to work from. Frankly, the stereotypes, cliches, and tropes used to build the five current races are enough to make them feel more than flat. I say that even though I cannot stand the asura and want to punt Zojja off an airship. Into Mount Malestrom.

But they are more than “a race based entirely off of Brain”. And there is more to the charr than “Rawr, meat! Blood! Battle!”. They have their own sense of honor, dignity, and respect.

— more

Rising Dusk.2408:

The alternative is to get a friend who has a Mesmer and is a better JP runner than you to portal you to the chest.

I really wish I’d started a Mesmer instead of an Elementalist JUST for that for guildmates.

Also, try investing in the 50% fall damage reduction trait. You won’t die if you fall, saving a lot of silver on WP travel.

“Mud puddles, mud puddles everywhere.”
- Me, describing my ranger’s progress doing the Breached Wall jumping puzzle.

rizzo.1079:

IndigoSundown.5419:

It does take forever to get anywhere

There’s one point I forgot: I tried wvw for the first time the other day when one of the commanders asked for help since both teams were invading our borderlands. I was really disappointed by how much time was spent running around the map vs. time spent actually doing anything. Even if I liked pvp, I think just the sheer lack of wp’s in the wvw maps is a real turnoff.

That’s understandable. It’s to prevent one side from res-rushing.

Midnightjade.3520:

Just completed it after 24 deaths. I like the game but the person who changed the camera immediately before release should be ashamed of himself.

If I hit that kind of thing again I’ll use the potion trick – thanks!

I have found there are precious few third-person view games where I really like the camera. It becomes a case of “which one do I think sucks the least”. I have found that the camera in Guild Wars 2 is about on par with the one for Monster Hunter . . .

. . . useful and completely serviceable for most things but there’s those times . . . you really go “oh come on now”.

Oglaf.1074:

Personally I would find it sorta cool if the Elder Dragons consumed the Gods and obtained their domains and powers. However, since our characters’ apparent immortality is supposedly the direct working of Grenth, I don’t really see how it would be possible.

I think the danger of being consumed is why the Gods are very . . . very . . . VERY careful not to act directly.

Scrambles.2604:

I totally see where people against this feature are coming from. I just dont think the scorn of bullys should be the only thing preventing the playerbase from accessing new tools. But because of the behavior of a few jerks..THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS!! lol

I have said that in regards to:

- Guesting
- Fractals
- Bounty Missions
and
- World Chest improvements

. . . all these last two weeks.

Safer Saviour.9685:

As for the Flame Legion/Shaman Caste being an invention of EotN, that’s utterly not true. At the very least, the Shaman Caste was present in the early missions of Prophecies. The dominance of the Flame Legion was highlighted/emphasised much more in EotN, but it didn’t contradict any pre-existing lore, merely expanded upon it. It was believable, and no less ‘dark’ than anything else in GW1 due to the subjugation tactics employed.

Dip into extended quests in the Realm of Torment, and you’ll find a charr who wants to meet his “gods”, the titans. It goes about as well as you expect.

leman.7682:

This certainly is NOT a way adults would talk. This is rather poorly written and even worse executed. Its’ impossible for me to take it seriously.

And we aren’t even touching asuras and the way they are presented, their dialogue and general behaviour.

I didn’t ask if it was perfectly executed dialogue. Frankly, it’s rare to find a work of fiction which makes dialogue seem natural. I’ve seen seasoned directors who make dialogue seem forced, and good actors otherwise make lines which should be natural and flowing come out badly. There are authors who are otherwise very good at writing things that just plain don’t come off “right” in dialogue. J.R.R. Tolkien is one such author, due to the prose being very purple.

Also, I know many adults who talk in ways FAR worse than this, and have at least six of them working not ten feet from my desk right now. I have at least one for whom profanity is . . . to borrow a phrase . . . more punctuation than epithet. It is “impossible” for me to take them seriously, too.

However, the situation here isn’t played for laughs, it isn’t goofy in a Disney . . . wait, I’m remembering “Sleeping Beauty” and “The Black Cauldron” so I can’t finish that in good conscience.

My point was contextual to the original game setting, not real life possibilities. If Tyria was held up to a reality check, the Charr would have overran everyone else ages ago. In GW2 they are bigger, stronger, feral, and hold all the “tech” cards, so to speak.

If this was the real world, ninety percent of the game wouldn’t be possible let alone plausible. The rules of this world and the way it developed cannot be fully applied to Tyria because the reasoning behind the rules is fundamentally different. Magic is real in Tyria, and it is not out here. Things which work in Tyria would NEVER work by our rules.

And yes, the charr would have overrun everyone else ages ago. And we would have called them Saxons. Or Monguls. Or Romans. Most possibly Romans.

Both of the swords could potentially be made a peace offering, does the legend specify if that the sword can’t be broken? At any rate, why would Eir seek to reforge it at all then, personal use? -_-

Pay attention to what she says. She wants to give it to Logan. Or, as I inferred (and yes, this is just my inference, not fact) . . . she wants Rylock to reforge it so Eir can give it to Logan. A peace offering, something of value traded to try to smooth over a disagreement. This is the way the norn think.

Pyre is more GW2 than 1…it’s fairly obvious EotN is much more the prelude to this game, and not a coherent expansion to GW1.

It’s a coherent expansion to GW1, and it works quite well. It’s moving away from a stagnant story which wasn’t progressing in favor of the world moving on.

Though if anything is more “Guild Wars 2” in the original, you can claim it’s Abaddon. A big bad evil force that corrupts everything it touches and twists it into mockeries of what used to be? Check.

I don’t see how the Tengu link you pasted makes them similar to Charr at all, find better evidence.

You’re not looking close enough. You’re reading, but you’re not comprehending. The Tengu Wars between tengu and the humans . . . and the Pre-Searing struggle between the charr and humans . . . are directly similar. Both sides are in the wrong, both sides have done atrocities such as wholesale slaughter, and then decided peace was a better option.

And in both cases, there are fragments of all three races who continue to fight and attack the other despite peace being given.

You’re right, you don’t need nobility to know peace, but it’s a heckuva lot easier to deal with one who has it isn’t it? And the GW1 Charr were not civilized in any demonstrable way at all. That’s just silly-talk.

No, that’s dangerously close to infractable territory for me to discuss since I’d need to dip into real world examples here. What it comes down to is the question “how do you define civilization”?

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
If we’re going to get all realistic here about tech, then there’s no reason the Charr would be the only only ones with war machines. The “no gods keeping them preoccupied” argument doesn’t cut it. If there were such a huge advantage out there in the world like tanks and helicopters, the humans and Asura would be just as interested in that as the Charr, despite having magic.

No, it does cut it. I’ll explain why shortly.

The Norn and Sylvari, not caring for tech as you say, would eventually die off in a “real world” scenario.

They don’t care for that sort of technology. They’re not interested in war machines or better tools for killing people. The norn do not care for warfare in the same fashion as charr or humans. Norn do not (with one notable exception) form armies in a way the charr or humans do. They revere the world and respect it. They would not die off in a “real world” scenario, mostly because we still have cultures like that today.

The sylvari don’t care for the tech because they can adapt plants to function in similar fashions. They have no need of iron or steel, or gunpowder. They also are very young and are still finding their footing. There’s not much point to going into whether or not they’d survive in the “real world” since they couldn’t exist anyway.

The asura don’t have an interest in the charr war machines because they prize elegance over force. Also, they’re fiercely independent thinkers whose egos do not cope well with an organized army so . . . no, they would much rather make golems to do that for them. It worked in the past beautifully, after all, and is a sound and proven theory.

Now we get to the humans. Humanity in Tyria has always had powerful and potent magic, and has never had to rely on technology over mysticism. They are dying out because of this. They turn to magic instinctively as an answer instead of technology because that’s what they know, that’s what they trust . . . the Six, magic, and things outside themselves.

So what makes the charr special? Until the Flame Legion was overthrown, they’ve used magic just like humanity does. But when that legion was discredited, and “there are no gods for the charr” became the rallying cry? They turned to things they built, managed, and could understand better than blindly trusting magic. Sure, they still use magic, but they trust in iron. Like humanity uses iron but they trust in the Gods.

That’s why the charr are so innovative as to make war machines like tanks and artillery. And if you looked behind the curtain, it’s not good for them either – they are driven to fight by the culture, and it means they need one enemy after another to turn to before they turn inward on themselves.

(And as a note, humanity beat them to that point. See the White Mantle for examples.)

— more

Lightsbane.9012:

on any server.
1.) what made you choose and stay on the server you’re on?(guilds and friends aren’t a valid reason since transfers were free for four months)

Wait, guilds and friends aren’t valid, because we pooled onto the same server? I mean, we picked a server right after the Beta Weekend Events so we would all wind up together on the same server. And that server wasn’t Stormbluff Isle, it was something else . . . which was full when we got to BWE3, so . . .

Yes, they are the reason I chose this server and why I stay on it. You don’t get to tell me it’s not valid.

2.) what will it take for the wvw players to get you into wvw?

I’m already in WvW some days but unless one of you folks is going to chip in to replace my computer, my time there is limited to map completion and maybe poking around for an hour at a time. I try to be useful at least, but I am sorely limited by my hardware.

And before you ask, it’s an Intel Mac Mini. Upgrading it with anything other than more RAM is not an option.

3.) wvw benefits your dungeon runs, do you not agree that helping us get the buffs you benefit from is the right thing to do?

See previous point. If I was capable of doing more than taking small camps I would be. But my hardware is sorely overtaxed every time we try to take a garrison or Stonemist. It’s not culling, it’s FPS that makes me have a problem.

4.)is it the repair bill that scares you out?(i know pve players with upwards of 200g, so the fact that they’re scared of a 10s repair bill is confusing)

They’re scared of paying it repeatedly because they can’t function as well. WvW is a different animal than PvE.

And no, if I need repairs I can kill some of the beasts around the map for vendor goods.

5.) why would a risen priestess of milandru be impressed with your Sunrise?

Because it’s shiny. Also, it’s not a priestess, it’s a priest. And it would be very impressive since I don’t have a Sunrise in the first place. There’s nothing so impressive as something I don’t have to be impressed by.

CHOAM.7852:

FLFW.3105:

…. should be removed.

Yes its just a pixels and 95% of guild wars population wont become animal abusers because of that but we have children playing here. Proposing that bashing rabbits or kitties to death is rewardable ( which is what anet is suggesting here ) is wrong and i bet in some form – illegal.

Yes yes this is a game but we have too much violence in games already, why add more?

You are proposing that 5% of us will now commit atrocious acts of animal cruelty?

A lot of us already do. I mean, I borrowed my friend’s cat to make lolcats after completing my Ambient Killer.

(No, I didn’t, I went and made lolcharr instead. Because boredom )

I also remember the White Rabbit summon.

That thing . . . was something else.

Arcadian Knight.1079:

2: Air Drop, so much glorious golemantic death that I couldn’t help but feel proud that I was playing an Asura. So much glorious tech!

“We got incoming Risen!”

(ZAAAP)

“. . . or piles of rotting flesh smoking on the floor, that’s good too.”

Pirlipat.2479:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Spiders, I have to seriously try to find something where they are good or at least not an enemy. That said I don’t have a problem with spiders so long as they don’t come crawling up my leg. They keep the insect pest infestation down to a manageable level

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anansi

This is the internet era so . . .“seriously try to find something” means “fifteen seconds on Google”

Point is, I couldn’t come up with either on the top of my head, but I could come up with a half dozen stories where wolves were either not the antagonists or were the antagonists without being evil.

Obsidian.1328:

“Sure, we have a truce. But I can still take you out if you step out of line”. See, that’s the b.s. part. It’s like the Charr are being somehow magnanimous and condescending at the same time. It’s interesting how ANet tries so hard recast the Charr into the role the humans formerly had. And no, I don’t take them seriously…the tanks and mortars are so wrong and out of place in this game no one should even have to remark on it.

Except the first game, 250 years earlier, had black powder and the Stone Summit had clearly been attempting to advance weapon design on their own. When you have black powder, it’s not long before you can advance to guns and rifles, and from there to cannons.

Edit: Actually, guns and rifles would follow from cannons just as easily. Getting something like a cannon smaller is a more impressive feat I think. Point being that black powder is going to lead into other applications. The charr got there because the asura and humans have powerful enough magic to think of that first and mechanical effects second, while the sylvari and norn don’t care.

How can I pay attention to something that wasn’t in the game? lol And I didn’t mention anything about the legitimacy of the Foefire being dispelled, only that Magdaer might be a peace offering.

This is why I said you didn’t pay attention. Magdaer can’t be made a peace offering, that’s the sword King Adelbern broke to start the Foefire. Sohothin was the sword of Rurik.

I don’t care for the DE aspect of the game because it doesn’t engage me in the least. I hardly think I’m alone in that.

No, no you’re not alone in that. It didn’t quite click with me either. I blame Zojja.

And…are you really comparing the Tengu to the Charr? Really? The Tengu of GW1 at least displayed some aspects of civility and nobility. The GW1 Charr were just mongrels. Did the Tengu ever try to commit mass genocide on your species? Or burn your fellow countrymen/women alive? Or nuke your land into a poisonous wasteland? And not express an ounce of regret for it? No? Well then perhaps they are mature enough to warrant a peace deal.

And yet . . . Pyre Fierceshot.

And yet . . . The Tengu Was

I am comparing the tengu to the charr, because you don’t need to have nobility to have a truce or peace. And the charr are civilized, but it’s not the same civilization as humans. It’s different.