but you’re going to go to the lengths of arguing that dagger should have a condition on it anyways because of LF regen on Scourge. This is a nonsensical argument and a nonsensical solution to a non-existent problem; you don’t solve a Scourge-related issue with a buff to a widely available weapon outside of it’s conceived purpose, just because it’s not that big a deal.
Why isn’t a big deal? Any suggestion to solve Scourge’s PvE life force issues?
If Anet didn’t want you to make significant choices between what weapons to swap around in combat, you wouldn’t have weapon swapping. It’s not hard to understand why this will never happen or why it’s a poor idea.
Dear weaponswap2k17, we are not asking to buff dagger at the point of outdps scepter but to have a better dps with it. We don’t want to camp dagger like the old core power build but to not lose too much dps while building the needed life force to do our future rotation.
It’s surprising that someone can scream powercreep even when we’re not talking about the duration of the damaging condition, a crucial thing that won’t be implemented by us but by Anet.
Then you were saying that to me. I’m one of those opposed. Because if they add damaging condi (a real one, not self bleed to feed life siphon’s force), then they will gut something else. And dagger occupies a very needed and practical spot of best weapon for sustain, and swift striking, something necro doesn’t get with every weapon set he chooses.
Dagger’s Life Siphon it’s one of the most easy skill to interrupt and when the necromancer is channeling the skill it’s more vulnerable, usually ending to take more damage than the restored hp (our poor’s man “evade”), it could be a problem to give it a damaging condition (torment) per pulse with the caster affected by bleeding?
To make dagger deal significant damage we have to stay melee, life force isn’t hard to build in PvP where you have to wait 10 seconds after exiting shroud to have the skill ready, cutting AA’s aftercast to deal more damage and build enough life force PvE “Scourgewise” it’s so strong to nerf another aspect of the weapon? Not to me.
And to me Dagger mainhand isn’t a 100% power weapon anymore since Dark Pact’s changes.
Somoeone should really learn to read.
And with my quote I was clearly saying to tho ones opposed to give to dagger a direct damaging condition that dagger isn’t a condition weapon but neither a power only one.
^^ It only gets better … so you want an unnecessary and marginally effective change on dagger to accommodate people doing PVE that don’t want to swap to improve their LF regen on Scourge. It’s making lots of sense now :/
#peopleswhodon’twanttouseweaponswap meme boy, if you’ll text me your address I’ll be happy to send you a free english-x language dictionary.
The suggestion to add condi on dagger is such a blatant attempt at power creep that I can’t even believe anyone would think this a serious suggestion.
The problem with redditors like you is your strange, and slightly bewildering idea that this is a)power creep and b)bad. No idea why you guys even have this power creep meme, because it’s really, really silly.
If something is bad and unused, buffing it is not “power creep” or whatever word salad you want to shout, it’s bringing it up to par.
Just because the weapon is unused does not mean this is not power creep. The funny thing is that no one acknowledges that the performance of a condition-upgraded dagger, even in Scourge, will still be pretty poor compared to a optimized Scepter Condi setup … and then tell me this isn’t a bad idea? Please tell me what a condi-upgraded dagger Scourge setup even looks like … it looks like a non-optimized condition setup using Viper armor and missing out on the best condition traits while relying on a power weapon to deliver damage. That’s garbage … and that’s the best solution for LF regen on Scourge you are going to support … GG.
This suggestion solves no problem, other than giving dagger a little more DPS in a completely useless way; no power build can do anything with that addition outside of Scourge and I’m doubtful it’s better DPS than Scepter will be on Scourge. It’s just more damage tacked onto dagger, just because people can’t be bothered to swap weapons while using Scourge. If that’s not the definition of power creep, then power creep doesn’t exist.
Power builds need damage increase, power builds can have 750 condition damage coming from might plus other party buff, so a damaging condition isn’t useless.
Dagger it’s a bad PvP weapon.
This could lead to powercreep compared to what exactly?
The funny thing is that no one acknowledges that the performance of a condition-upgraded dagger, even in Scourge, will still be pretty poor compared to a optimized Scepter Condi setu
We are asking to Dagger’s buff not to match scepter dps but to not lose dps.
Scourge need life force generation and/or a better dps on life force generation phase.
Our dps isn’t great (burst =/= dps) and our support isn’t needed in PvE. This could change if they’ll chose to give to a certain rune an effect like “increase damage and condition damage by x% to allies affected by your barriers”
I once was running a open world power build with Dagger mainhand, it was to get the 25 cruelty stack and then swap to Greatsword. Replaced with Axe changes
Maybe Lahmia.2193 should not have asked about serious build but about good builds (wich lead to performing wich lead to meta). Woah, those daggers changes could be so “gamebreaking”! Its not like MH dagger it’s one of the worst weapons we have PvP wise against players with hands while not dealing enough damage for the utility it give..
And to me Dagger mainhand isn’t a 100% power weapon anymore since Dark Pact’s changes.
I do played almost all of the necro builds. I played mostly Corruption Mancer. But this photos are made with Minion Mancer and I can bravely say it still worth and its pretty strong and tanky with a decent team or even with a bad one.
My Menders transfusion necro gets quite a bit of rage too…..
Nothing is safe. We’re at the mercy of monkeys pulling the balance levers.
Having said that, if you have Celestial, you will always have a bit of everything – regardless of what our merciless overlords nerf.
You’ll always have an inferior build in general if you go Celestial.
In wvw the only thing that truly matters is staying alive and corrupting boons. Celestial might stacking pretty much covers a solid balanced build. Necromancer is a class that easily uses 6 of the 7 stats. Scourge will even use all 7.
^this
Celestial isn’t a good stat only for minmaxed dps pve builds.
Long live to Blood Magic!
Id also love a 20 slot bag that wont fill up unless you manually drag items into it, specifically for things you use on your character like armor swapping and food. I hate it when my characters equipment/gear bag fills up with loot…
A 20 slot bag that could only be filled with armor and weapons where you can put 4 terran weapons, 2 acquatic weapons, 6 armor pieces, 6 accessory (with a dedicate numbered slot corrispondent to character’s equip) and an additional item that while in the bag allow to swap the contained equip with the one currently worned it’ll be very apprecied from the community.
It could be made it for light/medium/heavy professions or for each specific profession, to solve weapon’s related problems.
Let’s be clear: when it can be done nothing in the entire game beats Epidemic bouncing. When it’s an option, you really should be doing it.
When it’s not an option, then you may discuss other utilities in that third slot.
Just curious, what utilities do you like? When using Condition Reaper you’d add another Minion, like Flesh Wurm, or “Suffer!”. With Scourge we don’t have Shouts, and minions don’t do Combo Finishers either since we don’t do Ice Field spams. I was thinking about Serpent Siphon, Plague Signet, Well of Corruption for Fractals with Boons, and Corrosive Poison Cloud. Utilities change per Fractal/Fight though. I mean maybe replacing Epidemic with a minion would still be good.
I just like hearing other people’s opinions.
Even if not on Chill Fields for Deathly Chill, Minion’s Projectile Finishers are a dps increase.
If they’ll not buff Life Force generation on weapons they could at least give us life force gain from Flash Wurm’s attacks, wich it’s easy to kill in PvP scenarios while it could be useful for PvE.
Few days back I was thinking of something similar. Something like: Soul Comprehension minor trait: our passive life-force generation from nearby deaths is increased by 20%. Every 5th minion attack grant 1-2% LF.
Hey, seems like you want to make a certain Death Magic’s trait useful for something!
But for Soul Comprehension I think that on all minions 5th attack could be too powerful with certain builds, maybe the old increased life force gain on deaths plus a 3% life force gain every 3 seconds while under the life force threshold? (50% life force, Combat only)
Let’s be clear: when it can be done nothing in the entire game beats Epidemic bouncing. When it’s an option, you really should be doing it.
When it’s not an option, then you may discuss other utilities in that third slot.
Just curious, what utilities do you like? When using Condition Reaper you’d add another Minion, like Flesh Wurm, or “Suffer!”. With Scourge we don’t have Shouts, and minions don’t do Combo Finishers either since we don’t do Ice Field spams. I was thinking about Serpent Siphon, Plague Signet, Well of Corruption for Fractals with Boons, and Corrosive Poison Cloud. Utilities change per Fractal/Fight though. I mean maybe replacing Epidemic with a minion would still be good.
I just like hearing other people’s opinions.
Even if not on Chill Fields for Deathly Chill, Minion’s Projectile Finishers are a dps increase.
If they’ll not buff Life Force generation on weapons they could at least give us life force gain from Flash Wurm’s attacks, wich it’s easy to kill in PvP scenarios while it could be useful for PvE.
IMHO Aura and ferocity buff on underused traits (Soul Eater and Reaper’s Onslaught) it’s the safest way to increase dps while not breaking the game for PvP.
Our damage loss could be great or not depending on the aura effect, if it last for 9 seconds, refresh every 3 seconds like the others they can think about reduce by 30% Shroud’s CD on Relentless Pursuit or somehing~
Thanks, guys. I have a lot of fun, have been trying different GS builds in Unranked and the dmg part is surprisingly high, survivability is not bad either with Meditation, Gs + Sc/f (sh) or even Gs + Staff. Gs + Lb doesn’t work for me. Gs + Hammer and Gs + Mace also suck at least in my hands. I still do more dmg as condi guard (it’s easier) but i really hate conditions, so this would be a nice change:)
@Vitaly, thx for sharing your build: it really helps. Just thinking if i could drop Sw for Scepter? Equiping two melee weapons, while we have no mobility … and i like to get rid of one handed sword anyway …
You can, scepter makes easier to burst with symbol and then greatsword thanks to the immobilize.
You’ll lose mobility, the blind (no more symbol of blades) and a bit of ranged defense in favor to kiting potential. You can safely swap it, the build can work even with scepter!
Deadeye D/D seems pretty strong to be honest. It most likely won’t be better than staff Daredevil but should be pretty close to still be a viable choice.
Those who only care for max possible DPS and don’t want fun will not play Deadeye, of course.
^this
And Shadow Meld will be our first real profession’s “dps elite”
Warhorn can hit 5 enemies at the same time for more lf regen and thus lots of shade damage. Corruptions? Only BiP is better dps-wise than just using traited punishments. (trail of anguish and dessicate do pretty good damage if you trait for punishments and use your shade skills) I only see offhand dagger being being best in a 1v1 with a miniboss who has no minions. Warhorn will be better for utility and damage when fighting multiple enemies. I’m not sure whether terror will do more damage than MoC with only BiP though.
When not factoring in corruptions, warhorn will outdps offhand dagger due to dumbfire.
Please explain how offhand dagger is important for PvE.
I don’t really understand.
It’s outdps’d by warhorn if you’re fighting multiple enemies now, and our f2 is enough condi clear. Dying is no issue in PvE since enemies die 1000x faster than you do.
I think the nec community has just grown too attached to it or something. It’s really not necessary with scourge.
To transfer condition gained from corruption skills like blood is power and plaguelands.
Dagger
What condi spec need: damaging condition application and life force generation.
Suggestion: reduce AA aftercast (more attack = more crits = more bleeding) and empowering Life Siphon to torment foes at each pulse while the caster its afflicted by bleeding.
^repost: more power and condition damage (from AA crits), faster life force generation and a reason to use both dark pact and life siphon.
Tematic reason: if someone its stealing your life you’ll be.. tormented?
And seriously, GW2 isn’t a game stranger to damage spikes and to counter that professions have resistance, cleanses, blocks, immunes, evades and mobility and now even barriers.
Is this the first time that WvWers have to fight zerg’s condi pressuse?
It’s the first time having a lot of pre-stacked boons worked against a WvW zerg, as they ended up being corrupted. With more stacks of condis added on top of the usual ones, they can’t all be cleared in time, and barriers, which scourges also have, only delay the effects a bit. Not complaining…just pointing out a mechanic that might require zergs to adjust by either bringing their own scourges, having more of the classes with resistance and cleanses, going boonless if they see scourges on the other side, or staying at range.
More support guardians, mallyx revenants and support tempests will be needed, light fields and blast finisher will gain value and better tattics will rise.
Fear the mighty Pain Assorbition/Bolstered Anguish Hammer Revenant!
ps. maybe elementalists will even remember the existence of Stop, Drop and Roll
What I find strange is the call for nerfs from other Necros. After one Beta weekend no less.
Why so much self hate?
Anet will do as Anet does. Going by Necro’s track record if Anet does nerf Necro it will be heavy handed and cripple the class.
Show some spine for once.
I think Scourge is fine and won’t be calling for self nerfs.
A) they think that Scourge deserve a nerf to it’s damage
B) they want nerf now to not be nerfed later But once the nerfing path it's taken ther's no way it will stop and if other professions will not be nerfed accordingly Scourge wont have so much success in the end
C) they don’t want to buy PoF
D) they don’t care about PvE
E) they don’t play Necromancer
Firebrand’s support tomes have good synergy with Honor and Virtues trait lines and a heal capable of garant Aegis shouldn’t be understimated.
Core Guardian’s tankiness with the condition potential of Firebrand can give birth to a Honor/Virtues/Firebrand Sage Lore Burnker pvp build.
Easy Aegis access with Pure of Heart, general sustain and double CD reduction on class mechanics on top of empowered passive virtues that persist even with tomes on CD are real.
I was running my support reaper last week (PvP) and ended to ress 12 times my mates. Multiple ress at the same time. And this wasn’t cause scourge its OP but cause the “pros” can’t stand out of Plaguelands. They died again and again, now.. maybe multiple scourges could be very strong in zergs but “stacked X class complain” isn’t exactly a news. I only hope that the complainers werent the ones perished under core necromancer’s skills.
And seriously, GW2 isn’t a game stranger to damage spikes and to counter that professions have resistance, cleanses, blocks, immunes, evades and mobility and now even barriers.
Is this the first time that WvWers have to fight zerg’s condi pressuse?
How much damage this deals is not relevant. The reason for espec is not power creep. Since Anet isn’t making Scourge because of competitve PVE, then that argument is irrelevant as well.
Scourge needs Dagger for Life Force generation already. It’s going to do more damage with Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch.
Dagger being used already, it’d make sense to add a Condition like Torment or Bleeding to it, hell even Poison.
It wouldn’t nerf Power in any way since Grieving stats are in PoF which are Berserker stats with Condition Damage.
I don’t get why people are arguing.
The argument is simple … some people want the game to maintain meaningful choices in gearing up … you know, for challenging play? I get that people want to dumb things down here so they get an easy time handed to them by Anet … because swapping weapons is apparently to hard. At some point I can just let my Drinking Bird desk toy play the game for me. Awesome ><
Seems too hard for some peoples to understand that even the actual best possible PvE scourge rotation will deal less damage than ~80% (77,77% to be precise) of the other professions while bringing very small support, taking into account that might stacking can be filled by a amore more useful class.
If for you it’s ok to be in a low dps tier even without the excuse of innate tankiness given by shroud seems like you don’t care about competitime PvE.
Hint: dagger it’s already needed in the rotation and this don’t mean that its dps is good but only that without life force generation our dps will only be worse.
Nobody have said that in PvE classes don’t have to swap weapons, even if for someone should be a news looking how many times are writing it everywhere.
I wish a good experience to all the new necromancers and feathered friends that are wandering on the forum.
Exactly … people are not looking for solutions to their build deficiencies … that ALREADY exist in the game. They simply want better (and less thoughtful) things handed to them.
To me peoples are only seeing Scourge in a PvP pov and don’t want to see the flaws of Scourge when it comes to PvE life force generation and sustained damage.
You don’t need to see those flaws … you can swap between two weapons that give you exactly the two things you desire, as the game allows and intends.
lol, kappa. If not for our good dps I really hope we’ll be as good as the other classes for our “PvE group support”
Besides, if any group of people can appreciate deficiencies in a build, it’s PVPers; they prey on that.
So.. PvP only point of view?
The good PVPer’s know and take advantage of knowing their opponents weaknesses. if your whole stance is that you shouldn’t have to deal with and adjust your play because of the deficiencies of your class in PVP, then you really don’t have a leg to stand on in the first place.
As a good PvPer in fact my reaper has rekt every single Scourge it come across in those beta weekends, major culprit their lacking stability and Reaper’s Shruod useful mobility skill.
As every necromancer know, their dagger’s life force comes from auto attack, wich is in melee range and melee makes them more vulnerable to crowd controls, making it unable to fight properly (have i already mentioned the Scourge’s low stability access?) and leading them to certain death. The last thing a good Scourge PvPer will do it’s to go into melee range to build up life force when you can do it from range. Nourishing Rot it’s here for this but, you know, the trait will be picked for PvP and PvP only puprose as it is in the same tier of Fell Beacon
Scourge’s biggest PvP issue comes from barrier’s degeneration, not from life force building weapons. Degen and maybe the low condition application tied to their punishment skills.
So I was hanging around at Maguuma, the event with a name including “Night” I dont remember the name. Anyway, we were defending a Rally point and I saw that Necro was doing literally no damage to the Veterans or Champions. Was that a bug or Necro is as bad as they say?
Edit: I am a Daredevil
If it was a Sylvari it was clearly under Mordremoth’s influence!
Exactly … people are not looking for solutions to their build deficiencies … that ALREADY exist in the game. They simply want better (and less thoughtful) things handed to them.
To me peoples are only seeing Scourge in a PvP pov and don’t want to see the flaws of Scourge when it comes to PvE life force generation and sustained damage.
Yes, that’s why having to choose what you want to do as opposed to Anet handing you the be all end all weapon for Scourge is a meaningful choice. If you want a good Scourge condi build, you take Scepter … if you want to spam shades, you don’t.
Scepter on Scourge is already quite good … so is dagger. You don’t see it’s unreasonable asking for the advantages of both in one weapon, considering you can swap between the two to get the advantages you are looking for already? I do. I hope Anet does too.
Thieves dagger is their best condi weapon and it deals a considerable power damage, while also giving energy (think about it like our life force to avoid damage) you find wrong that a core weapon could do that?
Of course you can chose one or another weapon and in PvP you can have better ways to increase your life force but if you can’t do it in PvE while doing decent dps you’ll have a veryveryvery nice build that can’t do the dps role.
I don’t see what that has to do with a new condi weapon … why do I care if it’s a DPS loss compared to fast life force building weapons when the current fast life force building weapons are not condi weapons in the first place? Is the proposal to have a condi mainhand that builds fast life force?
Well, in PvE all you want is to kill faster things dealing more dps and if your rotation have high life force cost, that you can’t sustain for too ling, you have to build up life force. Recently on the from what many players asked for scepter’s life force generation on AA and/or to make dagger (great at life force generation) more condi friendly.
So … Scepter is NOT useful for PVE rotations? I mean, there are lots of things this imaginary condi weapon COULD be, I’m asking what is driving the need or even the desire for it. most importantly, what would make anyone want to use it considering how good the scepter is at condi now.
Scepter it’s useful as long you can cast shade’s skill on CD, then it lose dps compared to fast life force building weapons.
Dagger
What condi spec need: damaging condition application and life force generation.
Suggestion: reduce AA aftercast (more attack = more crits = more bleeding) and empowering Life Siphon to torment foes at each pulse while the caster its afflicted by bleeding.
It’s even better cause you will be able to heal with transfusion (with down ressing %) while also normally ressing and proc the Lesser Well of Blood (with down ressing %).
And the best part is that it’s istant cast, so once you active your f4 skill noone will interrupt transfusion.. and it’s a good thing, looking at our stability access.
Just give the class the torment or whatever other condition, don’t make it conditional. That seems like gimping the class for kitten flavor reasons.
Why so? The scourge corrupts are always a dps increase and you get 2 condi from 1 boon. Except for maybe corrupt stability, I’d kill for this to be made baseline.
If the Punishment could corrupt boons normally it could be good. They can maybe add the Torment/Cripple part on Sadistic Searing maybe:
Punishment skills gain reduced recharge and cause your next Manifest Sand Shade to inflict burning on foes near it.
Every time you corrupt boons the affected target is inflicted with Torment and Cripple
Only on punishment if it could be OP or global but with ICD
I’ll dont run Malicious Restoration, Withdraw will be my heal for PvP and Signet of Malice for PvE. It isn’t that Malicious Restoration can’t be good but a istant extra dodge + “free” sigil of escape it’s very good, counting that my target will usually die before Perfectionist’s proc.
that mantra of lore.. is even a condi cleanse… 4 condis removed… on a 20 sec CD if traied that CC’s as well.
mantra of lore alone = shout guard
ANet needs to buff shouts now :|
Maybe to convert 1 condition and garants some resistance to the affected allies if the guardian it’s over a condition threshold (?)
Or like Reaper’s Augury of Death: extra CD reduction based on allies struck.
With PoF i’ll try a Mantra Burnker build with Honor/Virtues/Firebrand
