Guild Wars 2

Razor.9872:

kdaddy.5431:

Please tell me how default builds implemented help anyone?

It helps new players just entering the name (who want to PvP). They don’t have a clue about anything. They don’t know about metabattle, or qqmore.net — nothing. Constructing a decent build is beyond most. Sure, they could ask in map-chat, but most don’t. Especially those coming from games where doing so would just get them flamed. These default builds just give those players a little boost. It’s not much, and it probably won’t stop them from dying after a few seconds, but it’s better than nothing.

At the end of the day, this mechanic is not taking away from your experience, it is only additive to theirs. Once the bugs are ironed out of this, A-net will likely then begin upgrading it to the templates.

I disagree for a few reasons,

So im a guild leader of a small guild. We got our guild hall up to level 54, we have the PvP arena and for more serious people solo que PvP arenas.

During the last PvP season 2 people in the HOTM asked to join a guild willing to teach new players. I accepted both and we went into a PvP room and i told them some basic do’s and donts.

They would come to me with a idea of a build and i would tell them why it would or would not work vs a particular class. Both these players got to diamond of S3 PvP and both have less then 1k AP. neither are playing much now but thats how it should be.

The new players coming in shouldnt have Anet baby sit them. There are tons of guilds recruiting all the time and they are decent for doing basic stuff in the game. There is hot join and other things.

But most of all you are destroying trial and error. Most of us like theory crafting, people coming in see skills and want to try and use different skills and do something different or something uniquely effective. This DEFAULT PVP BUILDS is saying this is the viable build and everything else will not be as good.

Im all for build templates especially for PvP having 2 for what ever builds you want or PvE for fighting on land and fighting in the water. Build templates i like, this is not good for anyone especially new players coming in seeing a default build which will be the meta and seeing every new player run that as well as serious player they get stuck fighting against doing dailies.

All the stuff i named earlier needed to be addressed, this doesnt help anyone. Just my opinion.

R O C.6574:

kdaddy.5431:

Razor.9872:

Biklen.5490:

Razor.9872:

This is a stepping-stone to build templates. They will come in time.

Default builds were just added so new players could use the system and be more up-to-par than normal.

I understand what it is…But doesn’t mean i have to be happy with it

Would you prefer they held off default builds until build templates were completed?

How about they come out with build templates instead of default builds.

Its almost a joke, hey try our new default build, Anet will just have to recorde it to the next meta build after each broken patch update.

I have to agree with the video. You seem to be writing about the next step, well the next step for PvP many hoped for more build diversity and it isnt here.

If anet wants to dumb the game down sure fine its there game but it wont stop them from getting wrecked in unranked/ranked.

How about anet make build templates instead of dumb default builds, fix MM, make PvP seasons fun, create a better meta and some decent build diversity. I dont know maybe 2 quality builds for each class. I know its crazy but these are things that should be done and yes they should wait till its a finished product. I dont sell you half cooked food and you dont eat it.

Also im gonna post a pic, its a troll build and 3 of the 5 players im playing against were running meta builds. Please tell me how default builds implemented help anyone?

Help me out. How is this a troll build?

So like a DH i can place traps down, you run on them and even though you just activated them i have them ready for our fight because they are coming off a cool down. Now unlike DH traps you can just dodge threw them or use a skill that has a evade effect to go threw the traps and take no damage.

Now ranger traps dont provide anything for the team, they dont help me defensively in any way but if you run on them not seeing me or i set you up. And you dont know how your build works, have condi clear, access to resistance, among other things you need to know. You will die.

So why is it a troll build? Its a build where if i stun you or knock you down with teh spike trap. I can entangle you and apply 8 stacks of burn, 25 stacks of bleed, 10 stacks of psn and torment among entangle and chill. I can do this in about 5-7 seconds.

This build is a 1 trick pony and the question is do you know what to do? When i take it to ranked vs players running the smae builds as people in unranked i get squashed but in unranked you will hear the frustrations of not knowing.

I thought that was one of the cooler items from GW1.

I mean they really should just add the best game from WTS1, best game from WTS 2, Best game from each Pro League finals to the in game area so people can see how PvP is played.

Plus who wouldnt want to see how a player is using his skills and when with control of which player they want to watch like in GW1.

Razor.9872:

Biklen.5490:

Razor.9872:

This is a stepping-stone to build templates. They will come in time.

Default builds were just added so new players could use the system and be more up-to-par than normal.

I understand what it is…But doesn’t mean i have to be happy with it

Would you prefer they held off default builds until build templates were completed?

How about they come out with build templates instead of default builds.

Its almost a joke, hey try our new default build, Anet will just have to recorde it to the next meta build after each broken patch update.

I have to agree with the video. You seem to be writing about the next step, well the next step for PvP many hoped for more build diversity and it isnt here.

If anet wants to dumb the game down sure fine its there game but it wont stop them from getting wrecked in unranked/ranked.

How about anet make build templates instead of dumb default builds, fix MM, make PvP seasons fun, create a better meta and some decent build diversity. I dont know maybe 2 quality builds for each class. I know its crazy but these are things that should be done and yes they should wait till its a finished product. I dont sell you half cooked food and you dont eat it.

Also im gonna post a pic, its a troll build and 3 of the 5 players im playing against were running meta builds. Please tell me how default builds implemented help anyone?

Kuya.6495:

It’s kind of funny. Forum complains that esl is burst meta and that is boring and it also complains that soloq is bunker meta and fighting dh, druids and engis is no fun

This is why there is a actual problem.

In 1 vs 1 to many classes take to long to kill or stalemate. I had a match on my warrior where i ran far where a druid was, it was a 1 vs 1 and he actually stopped for a sec to type “lol we cant kill each other”. This is a huge issue, before HOT skill/build/classes actually mattered.

Before HOT necro was the top dog for 1 vs 1 but based on skill any class could win the 1 vs 1 but they probably had to run a 1 vs 1 build. Like on warrior i use to run mace/shield- Greatsword power and the other was rifle/hammer (carrion amulet) and i could win 1 vs 1 vs the d/d ele before it became god mode. Im digressing but the point of it was that greatsword/hammer was considered the meta but that build was not the best at everything.

Now 1 build is the best and small amulet changes simply change your ability to live or do damage.

We are now at a point where in 1 vs 1 people wont die and in that same match where you are having a 1 vs 1 in a stalemate, any class can come over to help you and you will instantly kill who ever you were fighting.

You will see threads about condi being OP, see threads about X class being OP simply because build diversity has been taken to the shed and shot.

Yasha.5963:

kdaddy.5431:

@ supreme.3164

I didnt want to argue points of view of builds with you but i would like to point out that in the Pro League every ele used full shouts and a dagger.

Just a fyi on what those bad eles are playing.

Ele still seems pretty strong to me, the main difference this season is that I actually see them die sometimes when being focused down. Whatever adjustments were made were spot on imo.

Some what but thats only because of the meta.

Ele itself is in a really bad spot because the above average ele can play it with success but the average player will get chopped down fast.

Then there is build diversity, once again ele is just a healing robot.

Obviously ESL is organized teams and many are not running full dps necro or warrior expecting to be constantly healed by a ele and a ranger/engy.

From a PvP perspective nerfing ele didnt hurt ele at the ESL level but the random que in ranked. To nerf the ele and take away the amulet not only hurt ele but opened up the gates for the druids/mesmers/ and easiest to play DH to flood ranked ques. Every team but NL ran at least 3 support characters.

NL ran a thief and a DH which is why they lost so badly. The same thing will apply in rank ques. Got to have 3 support characters and for those who cant play mesmer like helseth, ranger like rom and engy like chaith. The majority of us cant and so therefore Dh too much.

My stances on all of it havent changed but just letting someone who criticizes my build which is virtually the same as all the ESL players came up with just reconfirms my thoughts on the meta.

Ok this is me in ranked, im playing rifle warrior solo que in ranked. I run far and win a 1 vs 2 vs a thief and necro. Then proceed to to win 2 vs 3 and multiple 1 vs 1.

There is no possible way i could of done this on vanilla so if we want to say that vanilla is viable at times vs certain players fine.

Emkelly wants to say that if your playing competitively your playing the game wrong, sure thats fine.

So i will end it like this, if you want to legitimately play with the top 10% of the players in the game, you will need the HOT spec.

Zero.6592:

Was there even a single DH in the ESL? I don’t remember seeing any.

yes there was and there was in the qualifiers but that isnt relevant since 95% of the player base doesnt play on that level.

At joshmossas.6542

I agree with most of what you are saying and no i dont think Anet is intentionally ruining classes but they are.

Also your comment with toker just bothers me. We all know that he is a good player and he even won some 1 vs 1 vs revs. Against muffin in season 1 and levin in that very tournament you are talking about.

I just want to say that in the current meta there is no use for a thief period. AA got a win because they won a crazy 4 vs 5. How often will that happen? They started chasing toker in that map.

Like a post earlier, how do you deal with a thief? “don’t pay to much attention to thief” and even afterwards in interviews with EU players they all said basically win the 2 other points and you win.

Thief like warrior contribute in no way to team fights, they are forced into 1 vs 1 potential match ups that neither are the Apex at.

Also they will never get 1 vs 1 in organized 5 vs 5 because everyone is so glassy that everyone almost runs in pairs.

I agree with you on there ability to change there style but i find it Ridiculous that people want say things like chaith got handled, the other 4 were carried by a amulet (that everyone was using) when this is simply not a good style of game play.

There are not other viable style options and yes i agree that this is the best meta since HOT but lets not pretend that these Pro Leagues have been the best version of the game to judge the elite players.

Supreme.3164:

Is this thread for real? The majority of you on this forum copy/pasted builds made by Abjured for the last 3 years, since they were Team Paradigm….but then again I’m dealing with the same kind of people who ask to buff warrior sustain at this point…like…‘facepalm’

You also said that full shouts with dagger was noob build, you also complain heavily about rousing resilience a trait few people actually take.

When many of us come up with the same meta builds as they do and understand the meta as they do. Its odd hearing about how you pick a few random threads to talk about warrior buff when no one is really asking for it.

messiah.1908:

also i wrote boring ESL not the worst ESL

lol actually you wrote “worst boring” so i think its a good way to talk about both.

I truly do not understand why most of you are writing some of this.

The competition theory, this was the case for over a year where no team really even scored 300 on them consistently. The won WTS 1 with OE and got 2nd in WTS 2 with another win after that and didnt lose a set to a NA team and that was to PZ a little bit ago. They literally dominated the game for a good 2 years either being the team to beat or in the case of NA, the team no one could compete with which is still the case.

Then you guys are talking about they were better in cele, they dont adapt as well, they cant change to the new meta. Which is basically what im saying but you dont want to agree because it doesnt help your point.

CptCuddles.8912 says im picking which sports, you mean the team oriented sports? A sport like basket ball which is literally 5 vs 5 where there are offensive and defensive strategies that force match ups? Where momentum, chemistry and style of play matter?

Why is it wrong to say that the meta is crap that there strongest assets are no longer viable int he current meta? Have they adapted as well as EU? No they havent but wouldnt that mean that Anet has catered to EU for these last couple patches?

If the classes are not balanced how can you judge the NA champions as “not good”, even from a debate perspective the title alone doesnt give value to what you are saying. If they need cele to win and Anet takes it away who is being catered too? Then they nerf a class that was vital to there success.

As comment above “toker beat misha in a 1 vs 1” but yet he cant help the team in any way. Is that the teams who play fault or the company who puts out bad metas which we both agree is bad. Eu has always been the better PvP server but AA has been the team to keep NA relevant.

They are still good just not dominant.

CptCuddles.8912:

The only time they won something noteworthy they had to have a balance patch and meta tailored to the only comp they could run. Plenty of other teams have adapted but they can’t. That’s just being inadequate plain and simple.

Once again i have to disagree, whats wrong with being really good at a few things?

It be like in the NBA where they still had the Don nelson rule or in the NFL where teams where still forced to have 3 people in the back field.

Right now Astral Authority (The Abjured) have Shaq O’neal but right now Anet has a rule that you cant dunk.

I dont think its a coincidence that a team that has the best necro and thief in the game are struggling when they have made mesmer and ranger the Apex, 2 classes they dont play.

Do i think Astral would win if things were changed? Who knows but just like anything thats Professional League advertised you need to call things out. If refs are making bad calls in the NBA/NFL they get called out.

Anet needs to be called out for the really bad HOT specs which has completely ruined PvP S1-S4. Literally the community has build names that were OP like spirit ranger, turret engy, hambow warrior, D/D ele and then when you talk about whats broken lately.

Its HOT spec lines

CptCuddles.8912:

Seems pretty unanimous. People don’t think they can win without a meta catering to their strengths. History shows the same.

doesnt that go for anything competitive? Steph curry isnt that good without the 3 point line, the gracie’s got destroyed in Japan in MMA when fighters could kick and knee to the head when they are not on their feet.

Think about how muffins and toker were both thief mains. They are now either forced to play mesmer/rev or in this case force thief to work.

Its like asking shaq to make his free throws. The game should have more to it then making free throws which atm GW2 does not.

solo que duo que pre mades are never the problem. You can not fix players skill levels. I have won against premades and lost against them too. Just like full solo que parties.

Ive posted screen shots of me playing seriously in ranked getting rocked and then winning 500-50 both ways.

I again post a screen shot of me solo queing goofing off with the PvP buffs going on. look at the scores and realize that teams are not the problem.

Vykoz.7803:

Kuya.6495:

Urejt.5648:

it was very good els. one of the best. Interesting that meta went into train weakest enemy (necro), instead of 3 point duels. Is it because mesmer and druid have too much mobility?

Probably due to the removal of bunker amulets. It’s no longer feasible at higher play to bunk points, so it’s all about the kills now.

Its different for sure, but i kinda like that kills mean more in pvp, instead of just bunkering points, which they still play around, so it was nice balance imo.

It was a lot of action and long games, some of which were very close.

It also may bring diversity, some teams might try the bunker strats while others go for kills, instead of everyone being one composition, with slight tweaks.

This is incorrect, in WTS 2 ORNG won they way they did by winning the Zerg fights and forcing the action. the Abjured won by spacing people out and trying to out space opponents. This is also back when teams like Radio Active where running 4 bunkers with 1 DPS thief.

All im saying is diversity in a sport of any kind comes with styles. Before HOT teams could win with any class and any style.

Every team in this tournament had 3 support characters because you cant run anything else. 75% of the game is team fights and rezzing which is why engy trait for rez, ranger trait for rez, necro uses a well to try and stops rez and engy uses 2 gyros just for rezzing and chaith actually went outside the box for using it and can be easily countered for trying it.

You wrote that it can bring build diversity which is terribly wrong. This whole thread is about the lack of actual game play and styles of play.

I originally wrote on it to argue that tactics of it and that there is more rotations and skilled game play then it was in S1 and S2 of HOT but overall this is the 2nd or 3rd worst meta the game has had behind S1 mesmer bunker season and the D/D era.

If you go back and watch WTS1 and WTS 2 you can see different roles, different styles of game play and i believe in WTS 2 every class is being used in the game and every class brought something unique to the table.

You will not see build diversity when players can be 1 shot or cant be killed which has been the story of HOT GW2.

messiah.1908:

kdaddy.5431:

messiah.1908:

not at all
i remember tactics and rotations etc..

now it all about pure dmg 4v1 mainly the necro or moa ranger fast

no, you must of missed alot of the 1 vs 1 that turned into 2 vs 2. Like NL vs TCG in the kylo map. You see kitten run off to decap cap far and Rom is in a full 3 vs 3 and he leaves the fight to run to where kitten is. With a player from mid going to where rom was since that mid fight is where kitten just left from.

It had maybe 5 sec of air time before they started talking about the fight. These are huge rotations and adjustments in game for fights. There are alot of these movements happening alot and most of the people watching dont see it.

These are still the same teams from previous big events, the same players who dominated solo que and the same players who have put more time into PvP then most of us have done all game.

Literally nothing different here from previous events other then of course a new meta which IMO is the worst meta other then season 1 and maybe the D/D god era. These games are being played like chess, moving players to not only win this upcoming fight but to hold it and win the next fight and hold that point without giving anything up.

i dont say there is no tactic at all but most of fight were like this
every one start with stealth stacking
target necro and 4v1 burst
try to kill more or disengage
if you manage to kill more than wait on their respawn and kill them 1 by 1 (hot join) denial ele for example who port back but walk down and got killed
almost no comeback fights as we used to see this season (maybe only 1 or 2)
ele moving only with group so mainly druid doing rotation which where i needed to heal

yes it as fun but boring and as helseth said EASY
burst boring meta and the one who burst first mostly wins

I think i understand what you are saying now with the huge group fights but thats the meta Anet created. With the way revives work and how long all 1 vs 1 fights seem to go it really does become the only strategy.

2-3 support characters with 1 dps since we cant have pure support/bunker/ specialist builds anymore.

So i guess i understand in a way but you cant take anything the players say since just like anything else they only see it from there perspective and they were fortunate to win 3-1 against Rank 55.

Saiyan.1704:

kdaddy.5431:

Mr Godlike.6098:

FiveGauge.1357:

XGhoul.7426:

Kervv farmed Chaith in 1v1s to always decap him (sometimes beat him outright and always force a +1) and they never had a good chance to replace someone in the fight to 1v1 a mesmer with a theif teamcomp so they were always kitten. If they replaced someone else to 1v1 kervv they lose out on their teamfight potential, and 55 always took advantage of that.

Yeah you’re really biased, fighting Mesmer for 3 games straight and dying once before switching to Lyssa/Sneak Gyro in the first game – that’s all well and good, Mesmer wins every other matchup on the comp we ran so nullifying moa, portal plays, and holding a point neut was not a bad outcome.

I don’t say that’s not true:) I had much more fun watching your team then PZ but still…I think you should consider Mesmer in your roster in this meta :/.

I hate that should be their option instead of anet just balancing the game. These matches are past them and the next point is moving forward balance wise.

Asking players to switch classes because the game is broken should not be happening. Chaith is easily a top 3 engy in the game. The idea that he should be forced to play a different class is a insult.

Serious question, whats the point of having all the classes if 1-3 will be the OP? ORNG in qualifiers had the best Guardian in the game and the best EU thief in game and they placed 4th because they are not the elite 3. kitten has proven to be the top guardian in NA and he wasnt useful at all. Magic toker is still considered by the many to be the best thief in the game along with Nos as the best necro. Yet they seem to have absolutely no effect in a match and even based on team comp might actually be hurting the team.

Would you suggest Anet or the ESL demand the players play the OP classes?

Honestly at this point, I feel Toker knew they were using an underperforming comp but kept thief anyways to prove a point. It’s not the first time either, shortly after HoT they did the same.

Toker is good but Thief obviously doesn’t work in this bunker/bruiser meta so, what can Anet do to fix this? Buff the toxic perma dodging staff builds?

I hope not, anything that would promote more use of the staff dodge build or the D/D dodge build i would be against but come on the idea that playing a class in a game makes the team weaker is mind boggling.

You can literally name 5-7 ESL players who wear the gold of there classes but will lose to a good player at the OP class.

During the broadcast they brought up that ROM is the best duelist in the game and followed it up by saying that helseth on a mesmer was winning the 1 vs 1 vs the druid.
Im fine with this because supposedly druid should win but when toker cant win a fight vs anyone and its not because a lack of skill but because the class is straight doo doo at ESL level.

I have no idea what the answer is and im pretty sure Anet doesnt have a clue either. Every PvP season has looked different from the other in Meta classes and style of play. Anet flooded us with mesmer/rev season 1 and necros season 2 and warriors s3 and now DH s4.

Lots of people have made threads on how to buff other things, nerf certain things, basically giving Anet the guide on a class and they didnt change anything in PvP. They nerfed ele for raids.

If toker and AA took a fall to show hey builds need a better skill cap im all for it. I do not not want Anet to go the simply route like they did on warrior. (warrior lacks sustain, so i guess we will make F1 skills spammable for heals)

abc.5790:

The game is definitely not dead but one thing that puzzles me is how low the Twitch viewers were during the main event of year, the championship match.

I think it was around 4500. After all the money and resources they’ve invested in for the Pro League, they’ve only increased viewer count by about 1000 or so from last year’s events. It’s not a bad game to play and watching others could be fun yet the viewership is baffling.

Can anyone shed some light to why that is?

I couldnt tell ya, i would never say the game is dead simply because PvP is a small part of it as well as WvW. With PvE dominating the masses but i do think new players coming in feel trolled or players with mostly PvE or WvW try PvP look at it like some oddity.

Like yesterday I and a guild mate are just running unranked for fun. He is playing the glassiest staff thief possible and im playing full trap ranger and we went on to win a 2 vs 4. If they are new or dont PvP much they had to ask the question of why would i continue to play this?

So MM to me seems off as well as the PvP meta being crap. I feel like if you combine the 2 you get alot of answers. People in the game who dont care for PvP for possible numerous reasons wont want to watch it. Then you have outsides looking in wondering why certain classes are getting insta killed. If you never heard of GW2 PvP and your watching and they are talking about toker has the best thief in the game and he is running the whole game they are sit back and laugh at the commentators and players. Its almost like the guy at the gym who plays pick up ball and thinks he would of beaten Brian Scalabrine in a 1 vs 1 just because he didnt in the actual games.

Mr Godlike.6098:

FiveGauge.1357:

XGhoul.7426:

Kervv farmed Chaith in 1v1s to always decap him (sometimes beat him outright and always force a +1) and they never had a good chance to replace someone in the fight to 1v1 a mesmer with a theif teamcomp so they were always kitten. If they replaced someone else to 1v1 kervv they lose out on their teamfight potential, and 55 always took advantage of that.

Yeah you’re really biased, fighting Mesmer for 3 games straight and dying once before switching to Lyssa/Sneak Gyro in the first game – that’s all well and good, Mesmer wins every other matchup on the comp we ran so nullifying moa, portal plays, and holding a point neut was not a bad outcome.

I don’t say that’s not true:) I had much more fun watching your team then PZ but still…I think you should consider Mesmer in your roster in this meta :/.

I hate that should be their option instead of anet just balancing the game. These matches are past them and the next point is moving forward balance wise.

Asking players to switch classes because the game is broken should not be happening. Chaith is easily a top 3 engy in the game. The idea that he should be forced to play a different class is a insult.

Serious question, whats the point of having all the classes if 1-3 will be the OP? ORNG in qualifiers had the best Guardian in the game and the best EU thief in game and they placed 4th because they are not the elite 3. kitten has proven to be the top guardian in NA and he wasnt useful at all. Magic toker is still considered by the many to be the best thief in the game along with Nos as the best necro. Yet they seem to have absolutely no effect in a match and even based on team comp might actually be hurting the team.

Would you suggest Anet or the ESL demand the players play the OP classes?

Alin.2468:

What is a cele ami?

It was a amulet that gave a little to all stats.

Mr Godlike.6098:

I remember when somebody from commentators asked Rank 55 member how to counter thief…
His answer: ,,don’t pay to much attention to thief"

hahahahaha yeah that was Levin who use to main thief

messiah.1908:

not at all
i remember tactics and rotations etc..

now it all about pure dmg 4v1 mainly the necro or moa ranger fast

no, you must of missed alot of the 1 vs 1 that turned into 2 vs 2. Like NL vs TCG in the kylo map. You see kitten run off to decap cap far and Rom is in a full 3 vs 3 and he leaves the fight to run to where kitten is. With a player from mid going to where rom was since that mid fight is where kitten just left from.

It had maybe 5 sec of air time before they started talking about the fight. These are huge rotations and adjustments in game for fights. There are alot of these movements happening alot and most of the people watching dont see it.

These are still the same teams from previous big events, the same players who dominated solo que and the same players who have put more time into PvP then most of us have done all game.

Literally nothing different here from previous events other then of course a new meta which IMO is the worst meta other then season 1 and maybe the D/D god era. These games are being played like chess, moving players to not only win this upcoming fight but to hold it and win the next fight and hold that point without giving anything up.

Exciton.8942:

Astral’s composition is actually legit with a thief.

They have one thief roaming and controlling two points. The rest of the four team members fighting on the other point. They should win every 4v4 on paper because they have an elementalist while VM doesn’t. This is very obvious on their second map where VM even went for a 5v4 teamfight but still couldn’t gain anything out of it.

What VM did well is to exploit the lack of mobility in Astral’s composition. I think Chaith’s initial pick of druid is to deal with that lack of mobility. Engi is the better team fighter and worse roamer. So the counter to Astral’s teamfighting composition is to have two members roaming around to counter the thief(mesmer and druid in VM’s case) and let the other three take outnumbered fight. Even if they lose the fight they still have the other two points.

Thats great to write down but they never really controlled 2 points ever.

Great in theory but toker never really engaged and won a fight so the word “control” which you used is a big fat lie or illusion if you actually believe that running thief worked.

Im just wondering what the plan is for Pro Leagues and ranked que could be?

Obviously you need to do something about build diversity (hot was a straight killer here) and with in each class. I mean give each class just 2 builds they can play effectively. I dont see why you cant make some changes to do that.

Some thing needs to be done with rezzing and amulets/runes. You cant to created faster game play after season 1 which is understandable but we had a Rank 55 and TCG (ED) game go the full 15 minutes. these are 2 huge things that need looked at. Saying we are going get rid of all defensive amulets does not create balance, just the next wave of unbalanced crap of builds that you can kill. Like the most offensive thief,rev,warrior, DH can not kill a defensive minded druid or mesmer. Think about that, you get rid of all the defensive amulets yet defensive pet damage druid is the best 1 vs 1 class and condi point holder mesmer. Ironic in a way right?

Got to bring skill and timing back into the game, seriously you cant have people at land events talk about a thief (toker) call him the best in the game in S3 finals and the most accomplished thief at this event and all he can do is decap. If he is the more skilled player he should have a chance of beating a ranger/rev/mesmer. This goes for all the classes, no reason to see tarcis who is probably the best warrior in NA lost to a ranger simply because the ranger is set up better for 1 vs 1 and team fights. So obviously CD on skills and traits need to be looked at.

I would like for a serious for them to be answered. They write a thread here about treb on the kylo map. What they should do about it? Ummmmmm no one uses it as above average level. Why are you asking us when you still have 3-4 DH teams running around ranked?

I want to know if they were happy with the Pro League finals? Some of the matches were fun to watch. First NL vs TCG match, 1st and 2nd PZ vs VM match. The obviously the Kylo map of 55 vs TCG. I mean the matches were very lopsided and it was very clear that thief and DH did not belong. I think i counted about 8 times where a rev use the staff 5 skill and took someone out who had over 1/2 health. kitten and Nos being the most memorable.

I enjoy watching these things when i have spare time, they can be entertaining but watching players run from team fights (thieves) and watching players unable to sustain unless they are in a team fight (ele/necro) is hard to deal with. Literally can not tell what is happening in the 4 vs 5 fight of AA and vermillion on the Legacy map.

I want better balance for my own game play and so these ESL/Pro Leagues simply can be more enjoyable to watch.

@ supreme.3164

I didnt want to argue points of view of builds with you but i would like to point out that in the Pro League every ele used full shouts and a dagger.

Just a fyi on what those bad eles are playing.

CptCuddles.8912:

All I’m saying is the one WTS they won was handed to them due to a very fortuitous patch a week or two prior to the tourney which heavily favoured their comp. Without such circumstances they can’t really do much without a cele meta to carry them.

I would have to disagree because they are still the best NA team but if we dig deeper you can see the flaws.

You have seen wakkey and Chaith change classes of fear of it not performing as well when other players are playing it.

Also IMO there best player toker best class is the mot useless class among the Pro League.

You can also see that phanta is taking the multi class literal and you can see that he is just under performing to his opposite because EU players are having mains.

Ultimately it comes down to balance though. Anet has nerfed what they use to like doing which is sustain and let toker/nos play there roles. They can no longer do that since the meta has greatly changed each PvP season when core GW2 PvP had very good game play for awhile.

I think you can definitely say they have struggled far more then the top Eu teams adjusting to the classes they main being crushed at times and still. I mean it was hard to watch toker not engage in any fights really.

Until Anet make it so game play is more important then build structure they will probably struggle with the classes they main all becoming support classes.

To the topic thread,

Warrior, thief and DH are still in terrible spots for ESL/Pro league PvP.

They are literally 3-4 best at everything. Think about Tarcis in qualifier, probably the best warrior in the game and lost a 1 vs 1 to phanta on druid but had one of the best 1 vs 1 moments against Never Lucky.

Same thing for kitten and toker. Literally there is no area they can excel in because outside of a key few moments. They are actually hurting there team for 10 minutes out of a 12-13 minute match.

Dirame.8521:

LUST.7241:

Dirame.8521:

LUST.7241:

Denial would have won the same if they had a seasoned Engi. Easily.

Ele and Engi are very similar in what they can do supportively for the team. There are ways Engi is better and there are ways Ele is better. Denial is the better team because they have more practice playing with what an Ele can do.

R55 showed that Scrapper works…unfortunately their team (and others using Engi over Ele) aren’t practiced around having an Engi on the team as support. This hurts those teams hard.

Really? A team like Rank 55? Zan the man who has played Engie probably since launch is somehow less practiced than Denial? Are you sure you’re speaking with sincerity here?

I know why Rank 55 lost and it wasn’t because they were using Engie. I know that for a fact but for you to think that Rank 55 is less practiced than Denial, that’s just laughable mate.

Did you read what I even wrote? There is nothing wrong with them individually (I never questioned their individual abilities). As a team there was. That’s what I was getting at.

Denial is a better TEAM and that’s how they dominated and proved it.

Fact is: Throwing together the best individual players of a class on a team together isn’t going to make them a great TEAM. They need to practice and Denial clearly had more of that.

And I’m telling you that it is my opinion, that you are wrong. Denial and Rank 55 are both good TEAMS. It all came down to the decisions that were made in the middle of the fights. You can argue that Denial is a better team “officially” because they won, but really, Rank 55 matches them in know-how and coordination.

Im sorry but if you guys ever played a active sport, all that matters is the win.

One of the best line ever is “you play to win the game” losing magnificently or winning dominantly doesnt really matter.

TCG (ED) is the best team with the best players in the game. Cant take that away from them with the history of there players and the amount of wins they have. Your like teh guy trying to say other players are better then Bill Russel just because you like them better or they put of better stats.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

kdaddy.5431:

sfxblade.3459:

I think Primordus is the most dangerous, even lorewise. He has been awake the longest (100years or so if not more),meaning more time to absorb magic, specially since he’s underground he is close to leylines. He pretty much threw out all the races living underground leaving alot of room for his armies. A million of destroyers could be below any part of tyria right now and nobody would know about it, until its too late.

Just take into consideration the fact that one of his champions was the demise of an entire race, and took the greatest heroes that Tyria had to kill him, the same heroes that fought against gods/liches/envoys had to reunite the charr/norn/dwarves/asura to fight this champion.

And he doesn’t need living beings to create an army, only fire and stone. I hope that we dont kill Primordus too quickly, i was actualy expecting him to be the last one we face.

I can agree with this but with the way Anet has told the story lines so far i wouldnt be surprised if we just walked in and killed him and then went to play badmitten on the beach with Kas. So 1 reason i think Primordus couldnt be as strong (just for debate sake) is he has been at war with the dwarves as well as anything else living underground. (the end of the GW1 story) Maybe Primordus himself is far stronger then Zhaitan but i would still have to say Zhaitans army were far superior.

Logic says one to us and the story itself is say another. Like the comment right above this one. Multiple times during the HOT story people are saying that Mordremoth is stronger then Zhaitan but never explain why. Huge pet peeve trying to get into this story as well as Rytlock and others saying that DE 2.0 is better then the original Destinys Edge.

Its like Anet didnt even read there own stories with the books and explorable dungeons in GW2. Like I and my guild mates just did the Arah explorable dungeons and all they talk about was how strong these dragons were and how all the other races either ran or lost fighting the dragons.

I seriously expect them to say ohhh Primordus is the strongest dragon yet and we simply drown him in the earth and then the water dragon awakes, bam Expansion coming for only $100.

Yeah I agree with stating that modremoth is more dangerous then zhaitan. The statement makes no sense given what zhaitan can do. And what it took to beat both dragons. However I think u can wave it away as an in character statement. Bassically an opinon given from the story itself. Rather then to treat this as a manga chapter and give the statement authortorial power. It’s prolly said just to create more hype for the next elder dragon.

I think it’s simply an opinon. Something I clearly disagree with.

I agree but i feel we should express our concerns with the story line.

Like seriously we just killed a Elder Dragon, there first time EVER and tons of people died in your living story and the comments after defeating Zhaitan.

Its like Dragon Ball GT. Everyone loves Dragon Ball (GW1) and everyone loves Dragon kitten (GW2). Were they perfect? No, there was stuff we would like to see done better or told better or in a different way.

HOT story line is straight what is this? Caithe does soem crazy stuff they dont explain why and then she apologizes and then you are just odd. I did my HOT path to Mordemoth on my sylvari and the lines coming from his mouth took me threw a loop. These are my people suffering being manipulated and controlled and Canach of all people had more sympathy for them.

Then we get to the dragon part of this and power levels. Thats basically Anet saying ohhhh we created SS4 and SS god mode and thats the new story and your gonna like it. And i actually like seeing that most people agree that the Zhaitan Mordemoth comparison are similar to mine because i was sitting here going really really really really.

I always said before the match that i was going far and they should notice that i am on the mini map or if they are counting heads as they walk into a fight.

Once again though it not about strategies, the person capping home goes to mid and its a 4 vs 4 again if the people in the mid fight dont just straight eat it.

By me going far the question becomes can my team mates fight 3 vs 4 for 10 sec? Can they rotate or call targets after the mid fight? Do they understand who they are facing.

In this screen shot there is a match that is 488-500 or something like that. We lost because 1 ranger on our team would give up a cap point to go for beast. He had 2 beasts stolen from him by the enemy thief.

It just begs the question of what is the season wanting us to work towards? Am i suppose to be playing with these players? Am i suppose to grind out matches? I just want to know whats the plan for the future games because currently it just seems off.

Just looking at my last 6 games, 2 matches were good matches even though i felt trolled in 1 of them. It doesnt change the fact that it could of gone either way. The other 4 matches are complete blow outs. I hope that not what they wanted for MM S4.

So currently imo S4 ranked isnt very fun MM wise. When you played ranked you want to move or know where you stand. It can be very hard to tell when you play against/with players who are not at the save level of understanding. Obviously there is more to PvP then simply 5 vs 5 with 3 cap points.

So i did a few ranked matches the past day and just like to share some SS.

Now each game im going far and engaging the 1 vs 1. Id say i won 99% of the 1 vs 1 this day. ( I lost 1 fight)

Now the reason why this is frustrating for me is because i am partied up with people who dont understand “it”. They didnt know who to target and didnt know what was hurting them.

I eventually gave up on the match around the 430 mark and we had about 135. I went mid to help with the team fight, i downed the thief, a ranger came to help rez and i and 1 other downed that ranger. So 2 are down and the ranger that was helping me and another player changed targets. 1 ranger came and knock me back with his long bow and rezzed both.

So the very next match, 2 people who i just lost 2. Ended up on the other side.

I am more then willing to accept maybe im a ruby player but the score of the matches cant be like this if they are. It really makes no sense, if i get these matches in unranked who cares. Im just there for dailys but when i que up for ranked i want fun competitive matches.

there is not a whole lot they can do about that. I did 3 pvp matches and in 2 games someone on my team dc/ or loaded slow. What ever the case, every time i say ok lets make a push for legendary it only takes 2-3 games to take another week off.

My que times are between 5-10 minutes where as unranked is 1-2 min and i typically only have to play 2 matches to get all my rewards. These 3 previous seasons has taken all the grind out of me.

gin.7158:

One time I complained about pvp reward in reddit and someone commented “PvP players dont need ascended gears and gold”. My jaws dropped.

Right!

PvP players dont need anything but a dot next to there head, give everything to the PvE players.

Nice trophys, gear, gold, skins, AP, and what ever you can think of. PvP players dont need any of that cool stuff. (lots and lots of sarcasm for those who think im being serious and you know who you are)

Arden.7480:

This is the foto, and I think that the foto shows Zhaitan’s corpse.

very cool pic

Dawdler.8521:

Arden.7480:

1) We killed Zhaitan. The magic did not release after his death.

Oh come on. When did we ever “kill” Zhaitan? We poked him a bit and then he fell over and happened to die, presumably from the indignity of someone popping fireworks at him.

kittening Logan stayed alive better than an Elder Dragon, that kind of says alot about how dangerous they are.

Danger level level somewhere between a 300 year old turtle and an unshaven sheep.

LOL very nice

I have to agree,

The old lions arch looked alot better then the current and im not sure what to think of it. the new LA doesnt seem to be that of a scarlet attack or us rebuilding a place of trade for everyone to come too.

I dont understand why pirates dont just come take everything from the new LA since it doesnt seem to have the big walls or defenses, the old LA was quite something to look at.

sfxblade.3459:

I think Primordus is the most dangerous, even lorewise. He has been awake the longest (100years or so if not more),meaning more time to absorb magic, specially since he’s underground he is close to leylines. He pretty much threw out all the races living underground leaving alot of room for his armies. A million of destroyers could be below any part of tyria right now and nobody would know about it, until its too late.

Just take into consideration the fact that one of his champions was the demise of an entire race, and took the greatest heroes that Tyria had to kill him, the same heroes that fought against gods/liches/envoys had to reunite the charr/norn/dwarves/asura to fight this champion.

And he doesn’t need living beings to create an army, only fire and stone. I hope that we dont kill Primordus too quickly, i was actualy expecting him to be the last one we face.

I can agree with this but with the way Anet has told the story lines so far i wouldnt be surprised if we just walked in and killed him and then went to play badmitten on the beach with Kas. So 1 reason i think Primordus couldnt be as strong (just for debate sake) is he has been at war with the dwarves as well as anything else living underground. (the end of the GW1 story) Maybe Primordus himself is far stronger then Zhaitan but i would still have to say Zhaitans army were far superior.

Logic says one to us and the story itself is say another. Like the comment right above this one. Multiple times during the HOT story people are saying that Mordremoth is stronger then Zhaitan but never explain why. Huge pet peeve trying to get into this story as well as Rytlock and others saying that DE 2.0 is better then the original Destinys Edge.

Its like Anet didnt even read there own stories with the books and explorable dungeons in GW2. Like I and my guild mates just did the Arah explorable dungeons and all they talk about was how strong these dragons were and how all the other races either ran or lost fighting the dragons.

I seriously expect them to say ohhh Primordus is the strongest dragon yet and we simply drown him in the earth and then the water dragon awakes, bam Expansion coming for only $100.

Why not just do away with PiP system all together?

MM works now so it puts teams of similar rating against one another and with in the same PiP area. Ive literally had to wait 10 min to be in a match where everyone on my team is sapphire and we are basically fighting a all ruby team.

This does 2 things, why am i partied with these people when i am in T3-4. Were we expected to win or lose?

Ive also had games where i was on a team full of rubies against 3 diamond players. The PiP system makes no sense.

Its time to create a actual league system so players can see where they rank. A real leader board, a real Guild team rankings.

For example, in S1 i made a post because i was in the last tier of diamond and i had to face Team PZ (4 out of 5 members) 4 games in a row. They were all legendary as i was trying to walk in. Im ok with this overall but not ok with it stopping me from getting into legendary when i simply logged off and got it the next day vs other diamond/ low level legendarys.

Guild ranking example, S1-2 I and my guild team consistently played the season. We got 26th S1 and were 12-9. The teams above us were 4-1, 5-0, 3-1. We were like that is odd, season 2 we were in the top 30 with a 10-5 record with teams ahead of us 2-1,-3-1 records.

So in season 3 we waited till the end of the season and played 3 matches got 3-0 and made a top 23 guild team. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

S1 & 2 we put in more time, better games vs better opponents and we lost out to people who did next to nothing. We figured out Anet system and did what we are suppose to get a Gold Guild trophy for the guild hall.

A real system for PvP. Lets cut the pips because they are a horrible way to judge anything.

There have been many threads, 1 even had a Anet Dev asl what we wanted.

It went every where from everyone but lets just throw down some facts. Raids get exclusive rewards from each boss. Some like Gors look really cool and PvP teams got a trophy that all look the same except are different colors based on what there ranking is. The bronze one is see through in the Guild Hollow so thats a bummer.

Mini Llamas used to be only attained threw actual PvP tournaments and they kind of killed that.

I personally would like anything to spend my PvP crap on. With 100+ tickets and i was able to give 1k PvP shard things that are useless away to some Guild members to make vial of salt. I still have over 3k of them.

Now anything doesnt mean garbage or something that you only need 1 of.

Edit- I needed to add something, i did raid Wing 1 this week. I got 1 ascended GS and 1 ascended leggings on top of the guild hall trophys (which is why i do them) and all the other goodies. I know you can only do them once a week but the rewards have always been way better in PvE. Im pretty sure the Devs know that the PvP community as well and the WvW community are getting dumped on when it comes to any type of rewards.

Like raid trophys can be used in scribing to make other nice looking trophys and stands. they thought up a ton of stuff you can do for raids. And we can make mini llamas…………. when the minis from raids are better imo.

Amaimon.7823:

kdaddy.5431:

Amaimon.7823:

kdaddy.5431:

If we are to think about it logically and break them down. Primordus should be the strongest since it has been awake the longest therefore eaten up more magic.

From a personal hope, Jormag since im a bigger fan of the norns.

But if i had to put money on dragon fighting, Zhaitan to me would easily be the strongest. He raised ORR back up and turned them into his fighting slaces as well as corrupting everything on water and land.

Mordremoth tried to recreate zoija, Logan and trehearne. Think of all the great warriors who have fallen and Zhaitan resurrect them back to full strength. Instead of fighting great armies and giant undead beasts. Imagine fighting Achillies on the ground, straight fear would come on everyone.

So if i had to realistically say which dragon was stronger i would of gone with zhaitan.

Your logic for Zhaitan easily implies all dragons. Jormag turnt a mountain range into a oceanic Fjord. Kralkatorrik was a mountain range when he slept, and I believe primordius could easily create volcanoes should he see fit.

Ohh of course, obviously strength of the dragon depends on power level.

Lets just say all the dragons are of equal strength. 1000 vit, 1000 strength etc etc etc.

Now you simply grade the varibles, Zhaitan has the ability to corrupt water/land/air and the undead. For instance the legendary megalodon or the legendary undead champion gorilla king.

Now i believe Zhaitain would lose in 1 vs 1 fights vs the other dragon since there powers are imbued with a element of power. A power that would come from great individual strength. Zhaitans greatest strength comes from a ability of just sheer numbers. Tyria right now has literally hundreds of great hero’s and in the story line how many champions of Orr did we face? 2-3 and then maybe 1-2 giant monsters. It was a very unrealistic fight.

If i could compare, i would say Zhaitan was a Queen Ant. To me the other dragons in line they would be lizards, chickens, spiders etc etc etc. A small ant colony has no chance but given time and once a army has risen. Even animals like dogs and cats fear ant hills. Zhaitan was a Queen Ant and she had a army, we are just playing a game where the story says it has to end now. Thats the only reason Zhaitan is dead.

Zhaitan ‘could’ win in numbers, but numbers need to be extreme, Icebrood and Destroyers are a lot stronger than risen on their level.

Yes thats right, they would have stronger pawns. Yet if you look at the champions Zhaitan can revive.

Lupi-Korga-Megalodon- and I and 3 Guild Mates did 3 Arah stories, at the end of the Forgotten path there is 5 Champion risen giants just guarding the area where you free the undead chicken.

The other dragons have limits. They need to turn something, for instance Jormag takes the women of the norn. Who knows, what they are used for but Jormag takes them for something.

Zhaitan can literally raise the greatest warriors ever from the dead. So yes the pawns of the other dragons will be stronger. Heck maybe even the lieutenants and champions but they wont have near as many as well has the different type.

Tu Sevun.7946:

Okay, so I state my opinion and now I’m so bad I can be beaten by physical skills with condi damage. I’m just giving my opinion of the state of PvP in this game based on your know it all replies, no need to make ridiculous generalizations. The PvP in this game is complete garbage, there is nothing you can say to disprove that. I can tell you think you know everything, and I’m assuming you think you’re good. Glad to hear that. I’m also assuming you’re in your teens, live at home with mommy and daddy and play 10 hours a day. Just like pretty much everyone in the ESL teams.

The OP asked a simple question, you’re the only one who came in here, throwing generalizations around and saying this and that about “good players” and “bad players” and “average vs average players” and trying to disprove everyone’s simple answers.

You could have just said “Sure, Vanilla is okay” or “Ah not really” just like the 2nd comment pretty much said and this thread would have been quickly finished.

Your right, i could of said alot of things. Also doesnt matter if im good or not. Question from the OP is vanilla warrior viable? If i were to play vanilla warrior against the players i normally play against in ranked que, i would be the weakest link every match and that wouldnt be the case had i used beserker trait line.

Also you wrote that the Pro Players are not that skilled, people that spend 5-8 hrs a day 3-5 days a week on this game in 1 vs 1 situations, 2 vs 2, etc etc etc.

There is literally a thread by Nova Striker talking smack to Chaith (Fivegauge) about how good he is, about how he is just as good as any ESL player and how he has played and beaten him all the time.

Chaith got sick of it and on his thread posted “im in game right now where are you” and then proceed to beat him when he played multiple classes. Dude switched classes after losing each time and Chaith screen shot all of them and post it on his forum.

Say what you want its your opinion but lets just be clear, you are wrong. Like i said earlier you need to define what you think “viable” is to explain it. Also that is how a debate works, throwing out actual situations, using examples and breaking it down.

Everyone here including yourself say yeah its fine PvP is brain dead, or its decent enough to run around in unranked, which is not the OP question. Also of course i could of stopped after my 2nd comment but i refuse to let this person be lied to with vague comments.

Tu Sevun.7946:

Everyone lost me when the word “skill” started getting tossed around. Nothing in this game involves skill, don’t even think the Pro League players are that “skilled”. They’ve just played together longer as a team than 99.99% of the people playing this game, most people don’t even have a team to play with. The PvP is so braindead that I fall asleep while playing it more often than not. Logging in for the daily reward is just as fun as playing PvP/WvW.

Right here is the reason you cant listen to random people with opinions because they all have them.

We are literally in the warrior forum where there is a video of tarcis winning a 1 vs 2 and having personally been in matches this season with people like Paul and kitten who literally run far. Win the 1 vs 1 and then sustain while holding a point in 1 vs 2 and 1 vs 3 situations.

I give you if you play people like the dude who wrote this comment, sure run what ever you want. Heck even go physical skills with condi damage and you might win. that doesnt change anything and to cap it all, everyone saying yeah its viable is talking about UNRANKED.

Amaimon.7823:

kdaddy.5431:

If we are to think about it logically and break them down. Primordus should be the strongest since it has been awake the longest therefore eaten up more magic.

From a personal hope, Jormag since im a bigger fan of the norns.

But if i had to put money on dragon fighting, Zhaitan to me would easily be the strongest. He raised ORR back up and turned them into his fighting slaces as well as corrupting everything on water and land.

Mordremoth tried to recreate zoija, Logan and trehearne. Think of all the great warriors who have fallen and Zhaitan resurrect them back to full strength. Instead of fighting great armies and giant undead beasts. Imagine fighting Achillies on the ground, straight fear would come on everyone.

So if i had to realistically say which dragon was stronger i would of gone with zhaitan.

Your logic for Zhaitan easily implies all dragons. Jormag turnt a mountain range into a oceanic Fjord. Kralkatorrik was a mountain range when he slept, and I believe primordius could easily create volcanoes should he see fit.

Ohh of course, obviously strength of the dragon depends on power level.

Lets just say all the dragons are of equal strength. 1000 vit, 1000 strength etc etc etc.

Now you simply grade the varibles, Zhaitan has the ability to corrupt water/land/air and the undead. For instance the legendary megalodon or the legendary undead champion gorilla king.

Now i believe Zhaitain would lose in 1 vs 1 fights vs the other dragon since there powers are imbued with a element of power. A power that would come from great individual strength. Zhaitans greatest strength comes from a ability of just sheer numbers. Tyria right now has literally hundreds of great hero’s and in the story line how many champions of Orr did we face? 2-3 and then maybe 1-2 giant monsters. It was a very unrealistic fight.

If i could compare, i would say Zhaitan was a Queen Ant. To me the other dragons in line they would be lizards, chickens, spiders etc etc etc. A small ant colony has no chance but given time and once a army has risen. Even animals like dogs and cats fear ant hills. Zhaitan was a Queen Ant and she had a army, we are just playing a game where the story says it has to end now. Thats the only reason Zhaitan is dead.

I understand the need for meaningful reward.

For instance a challenger mode for a raid group that gives a certain ascended gear title. That way this raiding person can say hey im really good at raiding.

The PvP community has wanted anything that represented a PvP player and they got titles which Anet couldnt even post for this season till last week.

There are so many thing they could do and this is not one of them. If you want a way for yourself or other raiders who want to see a legitimate way of seeing the value of a player they are bringing in. Im all for it except when it can be held against other players.

I have made it to legendary 3 times in PvP, it shouldnt stop me from being able to play with my friends who are in sapphire or ruby. Anet MM system has destroyed there ability to play with me in ranked seasons. Do not do the same to raids.

All i was trying to point out is your trying to segregate people even more. Im not in these groups, heck i got my first SAB kill today and my raid group carried me. Ive simply been farming VG and GORS. Ive seen a friends raid group 7 man it not me.

We already have groups that want LI ping, gear ping, food check, and now you were suggesting a kills total? Its already tough enough for people coming in who want to play condi ranger, or thief, or something a raid group doesnt want.

Raids have a certain set up tot hem making certain builds the Apex, now you want to add a count like how many times a person has killed X boss. Anet did away with being able to see a players PvP level because of scrutiny sent out to new players or players at a high level but lost in fights or couldnt carry.

If you dont understand the past who cant change the future. Raids are already easy enough for some and terribly hard for others. Your simply adding to a situation that haves baggage with this question.

Now of course i wasnt trying to be rude, you definitely werent but this thread is like the rich guy walking into the party talking about how cheap everything is when the person who paid for it spent alot on it and this guy can only bring them down.

Skittledness.5106:

I’m rooting for PZ!!!!!lets go bois
Wait I’m on never lucky oops

Omg there is where we need GW2 media.

Never Lucky falling apart before the match even beginning. 1 player already look to sign in the off season with a potential contender. The group has seemed distant with one another since June, 11 in a report where Never Lucky engy/ele blew up on the rest of the team. It seems his back was hurt from carrying them all season.

Unfortunately my sources will not let me reveal who has spoken out. Lets see how they do in this tournament with this turmoil inside there locker room.

If we are to think about it logically and break them down. Primordus should be the strongest since it has been awake the longest therefore eaten up more magic.

From a personal hope, Jormag since im a bigger fan of the norns.

But if i had to put money on dragon fighting, Zhaitan to me would easily be the strongest. He raised ORR back up and turned them into his fighting slaces as well as corrupting everything on water and land.

Mordremoth tried to recreate zoija, Logan and trehearne. Think of all the great warriors who have fallen and Zhaitan resurrect them back to full strength. Instead of fighting great armies and giant undead beasts. Imagine fighting Achillies on the ground, straight fear would come on everyone.

So if i had to realistically say which dragon was stronger i would of gone with zhaitan.

Its funny because when this game first came out alot of people i knew didnt care for the story and quit playing.

Alot of people came back for the scarlet saga because it was alot of new content and story. Though many were not big fans of certain aspects of that though many [played the content.

Anet tied many frustrating aspects of HOT story to masterys. I feel they did that because the HOT story was short and imo a bust.

So tie in all the factors and maybe thats probably why you enjoy the journey as oppose to grinding a story you dont have any interest in.

Lexander.4579:

stream will fail to cross 100 views

omg there will at least be 2k bot views